Self-Acceptance, Shedding Shame, and Recovery Featuring McCall Dempsey and Alexandra Miles

From February 23 through March 1, 2026, NAMI joins the National Alliance for Eating Disorders in challenging stigma about eating disorders and supporting recovery. In this episode, NAMI CEO Daniel H. Gillison, Jr. is joined by McCall Dempsey, founder of Southern Smash, and Alexandra Miles, Founder and CEO of Project Blackbird. They will explore the connections between their work engaging young people, embracing self-acceptance as part of recovery, and what it means to shed shame about mental health and eating disorders. This episode highlights lived experiences with eating disorders and stigma reduction efforts. 

You can find additional episodes of this NAMI podcast and others at nami.org/podcast.

"Hope Starts With Us" is a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. It is hosted by NAMI CEO Daniel H. Gillison, Jr. 

Co-executive produced by Traci Coulter and Connor Larsen.

Transcript

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It's not just okay to not be okay. It's okay to not be okay and ask for help. It's okay to be resilient and to get better. And there's not one solution, one answer to mental health recovery. It's different for every person. But what I think is so important is being able to feel seen. Welcome to Hope Starts With Us, a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. I'm your host, Dan Gillison, NAMI's CEO. NAMI started this podcast because we believe that hope starts with us. All of us. Hope starts with us talking about mental health. Hope starts with us making information accessible. Hope starts with us providing resources and practical advice. Hope starts with us sharing our stories, and hope starts with us breaking the stigma. If you or a loved one is struggling with a mental health condition and have been looking for hope. We made this podcast for you. Hope starts with all of us. Hope is a collective. We hope that each episode with each conversation brings you into that collective so you know you are not alone. So today we have McCall Dempsey, founder of Southern Smash, part of the National Alliance for Eating Disorders and an eating disorder survivor and passionate advocate for recovery. And Alexandra Miles, founder and CEO of PROJECT BLACKBIRD, touring college campuses to address mental health stigma. McCall, Alexandra, we are so fortunate to have you with us today. How are you doing? Fantastic. Thank you so much for having me and the Alliance be a part of this. We always love collaborating and doing things with NAMI. And likewise. Doing great and great to see you. Great to be here. Thank you. Well, it's wonderful to be with both of you. So and we'll go ahead and get started and looking forward to the conversation. So first question is to you, McCall, could you tell our audience, would you tell our audience about your experience with an eating disorder and your recovery journey? Because there's a journey and there's also the understanding of, wait a minute, there's something going on here. So could you tell our audience about your experience? Yeah. So I started experiencing eating disorder, around the age of 15. But I can really now see the stars or, you know, all of the things kind of lining up. It's not that an eating disorder just forms overnight. And I really struggled, you know, the kind of sports center version of my story, if you will, is that I really struggled in shame and in silence. You know, I was doing so much of life doing what I was supposed to be doing, and so much of my worth was tied into my appearance, my achievements, my success. And so that carried from high school into college and of course, into college. And something I'm so passionate about is that the first thing that as I entered college, wasn't worried about classes or majors or anything like that, it was gaining the freshman 15. And so it was just one thing after another that really tied back into that eating disorder and that my worth was tied into a number on the scale. My words was tied into what I looked like, and the truth of my story is that I, quote unquote, "looked fine." And as we know, eating disorders know no bounds. They affect every race, gender, socioeconomic type, every human. The only requirement to have an eating disorder is to have a body. Right? And here I was walking around campus, you know, social chairman of my sorority, so involved on campus at Ole Miss and literally dying from an eating disorder. And that went on for about 15 years. And I can't--because eating disorders are not talked about. Right? And they are still seen as that stereotypical illness of choice. And we know that they are brain-based biological illnesses. And so I kept thinking that this noise in my head would go away "when...", right? It would go away when I weighed this or when I graduated college, when I got married, when I got that job, as if this illness would just poof, vanish with crossing a finish line and you know, cancer doesn't cure itself. And just like cancer or any other illness, we need support and professional intervention as well in an eating disorder. And so I was 29 years old when I finally sought help in treatment. And I quit what I thought was my dream job and entered treatment and felt like the biggest failure and so full of shame. And I didn't even tell anyone I was going to treatment. And when I left treatment, as I kind of started to gain footing into my path of recovery, I realized that recovery wasn't going to be this finish line. It wasn't going to be this like, poof, it's done. No one was coming down and anointing me recovered. That recovery was going to be learning how to speak out my shame, learning how to shine light on my shame, you know. Queen Brené Brown says that shame metastasizes in the darkness. And the more that I have that eating disorder and those secrets, the more the eating disorder grew. And through my recovery, I learned that, oh, the more I speak out my shame, the more I'm letting go and coming into my authentic self. And so when I left treatment, I knew that I wanted to make recovery my job and that I wanted to pay it forward. And so that's really when I started out on my path of recovery, discovering who I really was and really embracing that imperfect road to recovery, that it's not a straight trajectory, it's not a finish line. It is this constant, messy up and down and learning how to cope with not just eating disorder, but just coping with life and the messiness of life. So, and that's how I fell into the work that I'm sure we're going to talk about here in a little bit. Yeah, we're going to talk about it. However, I want to build on what you've shared. First of all, you, you matriculated through Ole Miss, great Southeastern Conference school and a beautiful campus So beautiful. It's so beautiful and you think about, you know, one being accepted and you're a student there. You're with your sorority and all of these things. And you said something that, for our listeners is so important that you navigated through all of that, had your dream job, and at 29 said, hold on, I've got to take care of me. That is profound. And I just want to make sure our audience heard what you shared, because that-- thank you for sharing your vulnerability and your experiences. And there is no starting point and end point to your to what you said. Because, I wrote down, you mentioned, the failure, the shame, 29 years old, dream job. So we're going to come back to that, if you don't mind. But I wanted to make sure that we're hearing you and that I want to make sure our audience is hearing you because we know there's other young people that are navigating the same thing right now. So, Alexandra, it is so cool and so nice to check in with you again. And we're gonna dive deeper into your work on the college campuses later in the conversation. But right now, what I'd like to ask you about is self-acceptance and destigmatizing mental health. Would you tell us more about the hashtag,#shedshame and what that means to PROJECT BLACKBIRD? Yeah, very in line with what McCall was just sharing. Actually, I think you said it so well, mentioning Brené Brown and how many people live in shame and silence around mental health. My experience as well, when I was diagnosed back in 2018, I was similar, a little younger, but 26 years old when I went to treatment. And, on the personal side, I remember feeling similarly, a lot of shame in silence, not only around having an eating disorder or struggling with mental health. Nobody in my community spoke about it. My family didn't speak about mental health. I didn't know what I was struggling with, but I knew something was off the baseline. I knew something was wrong. I actually experienced a lot of shame being in treatment because I didn't feel deserving to even be there. I thought, well, you know, what I have experienced, maybe it isn't as bad. There's so much comparison in mental health that you feel ashamed even to be struggling. I just was living and breathing in this bubble of shame. And the reality is nobody asks to struggle. Nobody is born and there-- no one has the first thought upon entering this world, "I really, really hope one day I have an eating disorder. I really hope one day that I struggle and hate, you know, hate waking up." I mean, nobody, nobody asks to struggle with mental health. So there is no reason for shame to exist. But we know that in a lot of communities and for a lot of individuals, there's this messaging that creates shame and creates--and shame seeds in silence. So what #shedshame means for PROJECT BLACKBIRD? And the reason that we chose #shedshame as a hashtag is that we really hope that we can create a world and create an environment where we really are getting rid of shame, so that these students and community members can speak about what they are experiencing and make it safer for somebody else to say, "Yeah, me too.""I struggle with the same thing," or "I struggle with this," or "my brother, my sister, my father, my child..." We all struggle and we all know somebody who has struggled at some point. But the idea is not to live in that struggle. The idea is, it's not just okay to not be okay. It's okay to not be okay and ask for help. It's okay to be resilient and to get better. And so what we're trying to do with#shedshame is really uplift the community around being vulnerable and healing. That is absolutely fantastic. And congratulations to you with the work you're doing and that hashtag and really changing the conversation, and really addressing the current narrative. And building on that, I really wanted to ask both of you about your work that speaks directly to young people. And, what is that work like these days? And specifically with the continued rise of social media, how are you connecting with young people who may be struggling with body image, and McCall and then Alexandra, would you share your thinking and your work that you're doing? Yeah. So, you know, it's pretty easy to start the conversation because we're literally smashing scales on college campuses. So we like to make a lot of noise at Southern Smash and at the Alliance. And so the whole goal of that is to truly you know, smashing a scale, smashing the stigma and starting the conversation. You know, like I said, I was silenced by shame. And I knew that as I went to pay it forward, I wanted to create something that was real and relevant. And I knew that as I was a college student walking across the grove at Ole Miss, if I had a table that said, come talk to me about eating disorders and mental health, I'd be like, "No thanks. Bye." But here we are. We're actually setting up in the Grove next week. We've got a bunch of events next week lined up across the country, and we are smashing scales. We've got music. We've got, you know, fun things and all of these different activities to start the conversation. My goal with Southern Smash, as a program of the Alliance is not about eating disorder 101. My goal is to get students to say, what are they doing over there? Okay, that looks cool. Let me come check it out. And throughout our activities, it's designed to help students say, what is my relationship with food and body? To know where to go to get help. And to Alexandra's perfect point, to know that it's okay, to not be okay, and to know where to go and ask for help. Right? And so that and starting that kind of conversation is so important because then they're seeing that, oh, eating disorders aren't this like lifetime movie where it is this, you know, stereotypical white, thin teen. Right? It's that, it is so sick and then she's cured by the end of the 30 minute movie. It is about all race, all genders, all body types that are experiencing this and that these students are thinking like, oh my gosh, you know, with our "let it go" cards, like what is weighing you down? Whether it's an eating disorder, whether it's anxiety, self-harm, maybe it's a biology test this afternoon. Like what external things are you putting so much into your work that you need to let go of? Right? And so it's all of these different touch points that the students can actually relate to and say, "huh..." And they'll come up to me and say, oh my gosh, McCall, after hearing your story, I didn't know it wasn't normal to obsess about when I go to the gym or what I ate, or what I look like, or this or that. And I'm like, "yeah, yeah." So the funny thing is, guys, we don't have to live by those bounds. And the really cool thing about the Southern Smash and the Alliance and the work that we do overarching with the Alliance, is that I can go to these college campuses. These students can say, oh gosh, I didn't know I had to, like, be bound by all of these external factors that are defining me. And then I get to say, but here's a really cool thing, because the Alliance, we have free therapist led support groups, we have them six days a week. These kids can log on from their dorm, from wherever they're apartments, in their pajamas, and be a fly on the proverbial Zoom wall and get to hear in that space, "Me too. I am seen, I am heard, I am worthy of asking for help." And so I think that's the really important thread between Southern Smash, that we are loud. I'm pretty loud as a human, so there's that. We're smashing scales, and then I get to thread that needle to them to say, come sit in community, come find your community. And we had over 30,000 people from over 80 countries logging on last year. So our community is rich and diverse and beautiful. And these students that some of them are in a care desert, some of them don't have access to mental health, are able to log on and say, wait, this is what I've been waiting for because that was something I was waiting for someone to say, it's okay to not be okay. You don't have to have it all together, girl. And that's kind of what we are able to do, especially with our college students that are under so much pressure, as we know, in this day and age. You know, this is fantastic, McCall. And, you know-- I just want to slow down a second and take in what you said. I love Southern Smash. I'm a southern girl. I'm born and raised Louisiana, went to Ole Miss, Hotty Toddy. And so. I hear that accent coming out. We're across the country. You know, we are not just in the South. We are across the country, in the Alliance. We are national. So we do serve beyond the South. But I got to stick to my roots. So today is the first day, well, yesterday was Fat Tuesday in New Orleans, and so, what is it."Laissez les bons temps rouler." Laissez les bons temps rouler. Laissez les bons temps rouler. Yeah. Let the good times roll. And I love the Southern Smash. So when you said mashing scales, do you actually mean that physically that that's what you guys are doing on the grove? Oh, yeah. I got one right behind me right there. It says "Weight does not equal worth." We are taking sledgehammers to scales. And so. What a visual. What a visual. That's what I--we are attracting students that would never in a million years step on to or come and talk to someone that works in the mental health, much less eating disorder realm. Right? I was at UNC Chapel Hill, this is years ago, and a group of guys comes up and I was like, hey, we're here, we're smashing scales, and they're like, we want to smash scales. And I was like, okay. And I said, tell me about yourselves. They said, we're on the wrestling team. And I was like, okay, you're going to, you're going to need all the sledgehammers, you know? And so you forget about every human's different interaction with what a scale might mean to them. But even beyond that, I tell folks that are coming, we all have something to smash. We all have something that is weighing us down in our lives that we need to smash and get rid of. You might not have a bad relationship with a scale. Great. You have something that you need to smash the heck out of it today. And so put that down, write it-- and we let them write on the scales. It is tangible through every step of our event so that they can say, I am smashing this biology. I'm smashing my parent's expectations, I'm smashing this abusive relationship, I am smashing whatever it might be, and to have them continue to think about, like what that really means. And while it's really fun and jovial and all these things, I've had students that will DM me on Instagram. They said, you came three years ago and I wasn't ready, but I'm ready now and I want to help you bring it to my school. And so that's the coolest, is that when we get that full circle moment and we get to pass the baton and empower others to pay it forward, that is like the most amazing part of my job. This is so cool. And as you said, to that person or that person said to you, I wasn't ready. Think about you and Alexandra. Alexandra, 26 and you at 29. So that's right in-- and it's kind of moved up from the standpoint of she was three years from that and said, I'm ready now. So congratulations. And this goes to something we do. And Alexander I'm coming you next. But we do NAMI On Campus and NAMI On Campus is these groups of young people that, judgment-free zones for them to be able to talk. And we make sure that we give them the assets, and the resources, so that they can have these vulnerable, safe conversations that will actually provide a strength to them as they navigate. So this is fantastic. So, Alexandra, I want to ask you, what is it like these days? And, and with the continued rise of social media, how are you connecting with young people? Well, let me just say, first of all, and for anyone listening and watching, McCall and I have, we've met once, but it's been such a long time since they've chatted. And it's amazing that these two programs that we run, they're very different. But hearing the feedback that you get, hearing what these students are saying to you, they're so similar in so many ways. Yeah, totally. And it's amazing how similar the narrative is for these students. We're getting very, very similar messages, feedback. These programs are so needed. And, and I can tell you they're incredibly effective. And even if it's just one that's impacted in that audience, you save a life and you really make such a difference. So it's amazing just hearing you talk about it. The PROJECT BLACKBIRD program, how we run that program, it's storytelling based. So ours is around a film, and then we have professional athletes or celebrity actors or influencers, singers, role models of sorts, speaking in front of these students about lived experience, mental health. And we pair that with a journal prompt that the students then fill out anonymously. They do an anonymous exchange and we send them home with a past participant's response. And then as McCall does as well, there's the direct resource part. So we provide a full year of covered therapy for these, for any of the students in the audience that need it. And then this resource fair in the back so that it's less overwhelming. We connect them with about 15 to 20 local and national resources that are actually specific to them. And it's so that they can feel seen. There's not one solution, one answer to mental health recovery. It's different for every person. But what I think is so important that, that McCall mentioned is, is being able to feel seen. Seen and understood and connected. And so we're both creating this in our respective spaces. And what we're getting in return is honesty. And these, and these reactions. And similarly, I mean, what I did one event for the city of Los Angeles where I had men coming up to me saying I didn't realize that, you know, when I was on set. And I made it a hard rule that I couldn't eat between this hour and this hour, and I wasn't allowed. And all these messages that they didn't realize could be tied to, and I wasn't there to say that it was an eating disorder or not eating disorder, but tied to a poor relationship with food and with their body and body image. I--we are now working alongside the Department of Education for an HBCU tour. Seeing in that space, in various different communities. We work in, with LGBTQIA youth, we hear it. And that to me, I mean, it's everybody. Eating disorders and mental health, it does not discriminate. And what we hear again and again from the youth, the experiences. And I'm at every event, these kids, these students are coming up to me in the back of the room. And yes, they're going to the celebrity, but they're actually going to myself and the other panelists that feel, I think, more attainable to them. And they're being honest and they're saying, "I've never said this out loud, but I think I struggle with x, y, z or I didn't realize," as McCall said, exactly."I didn't realize that I, that I struggled with x, y, z," and so it's allowing them to be vulnerable and with social media, you mentioned social media. What I tried to say and address on the panel, it always comes up the topic of social media. It's incredibly dangerous. And it can be, it can definitely be something that either sparks or contributes to a poor relationship with food, with your body. I mean, I still go on all the time, and I have curated my feed to be different, but I used to get all the time the this is what I eat in a day. This is what I, you know, how I work out in the day. And of course, we're a comparison culture. We're looking at others. We're all walking around and none of us have the answers. None of us have any idea of what is right. We know the best for ourselves because we live in our own bodies. But sometimes we're confused. You know, there's a lot of confusing messaging out there, but when the topic of social media comes up, it's not going away for the youth. And so to stand up there and say get rid of social media is not necessarily realistic. So how do we actually use social media in a positive way. How do we just re-shape and reframe the way we use social media. And I'm seeing the youth start to actually make those shifts and changes. And they seem to be looking towards more authentic role models, more authentic heroes and influencers. And so I do see hope in that. But yeah, to recap all of that, I think I'm piggybacking off of what McCall said just before me, but we're really seeing very similar responses to this kind of programming. And I think it's about feeling seen. It's about connection and seeing your peers, heroes, role models, all of the above just being honest around mental health. It's making it safer for them to be vulnerable. And they're asking for the help. And then the authenticity of your voice and McCall's voice really does make a difference. And it's peer to peer, and they can resonate with your lived experience. And it is--that's why they come up to you, when you're on the panel. And that's why they reach out and speak with you. We say something at NAMI, people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. And you guys are demonstrating that on a daily basis. So, you know, kudos to you for what you're doing. And, as I build on that and looking at it, we, you know, we want to meet people where they are, but we know that we are so much of a cosmetic society. We judge a book by its cover. We don't get into the table of contents and the chapters. And that's what we're talking about here in terms of, you know, that co-ed or that individual, even the wrestler, the grappler."I gotta get down to this weight. I got to do this. I got to do that or this." It's that and it's the cosmetics."I want to look like that versus what I look like here." So it's also building that self-confidence and you know, using, using platforms to help, young people navigate all of this is so critically important. And removing the shame, is so, so cool. So thank you for that. We have something called Ending the Silence. And I know that you're familiar with that, and it's really right in this wheelhouse of what you're doing. So let me ask you this. As you meet young people and, how do you see social media? The body image concerns and diet culture show up in your conversations. And I come from a family that my wife always says, oh, yeah, your whole family are foodies. And it's one of those cultural kinds of things for her not being a foodie. Yeah. So it's not social media for young people, but, it's also something to navigate. So what do you all see? I mean, I can hop in because, you know, with social media and I think, you know, like Alexandra said, it's not going anywhere. Right? And we know that there's so much harm. It's documented. We see it. And I think there's a place to embrace it. I really encourage when I'm speaking at high schools, colleges, everywhere in between, you know, I'm a mom, even to other moms. I'm like, unfollow. Mute, block, unfollow. Like if that--if you're looking at images that make you--you know, my barometer in recovery and in life is if something makes me feel less than, you block, follow, whether it's in real life or on social media. And if things are popping up, you can cultivate your feed like Alexandra was talking about. And so that's really what I encourage that-- diversify your feed. See humans of all body types see human-- the Olympics is a perfect example, right? We're in the middle of the Winter Olympics. Look at all the incredible diversity of bodies doing absolutely phenomenal things and looking at those and cultivating a feed that shows resiliency, diversity, and people being people. And not chasing lights and not chasing engagement. That's what--that's the beauty of social media. I built, when I started Southern Smash in 2012, I was a one-woman show, just making it up on the fly like, this is something that's happening and I've just got to chase this fire. I built it on social media and when it came out, my eating disorder story came out because a friend-- I was writing an anonymous blog and a friend said-- I finally shared an entry with a friend and she says, you have to let me put this on Facebook. This is kind of pre-Instagram. I'm older. And I was like, you're crazy. Then everybody's going to know I'm crazy. I went to treatment. You know I still had all the stigma attached to it. Then she said you don't know who you might help and the pay it forward promise I made when I left treatment came crawling back and I was like, "Okay, fine." The next morning I woke up and my Facebook was blowing up with messages of thank you for sharing. I struggled with anorexia, bulimia. I struggle with, you know, addiction. I struggle with mental health. I struggle to be the perfect mom. And the best message was, thank you so much for sharing McCall. All those years we thought you had it together. It's so nice to know you did not. And it dawned on me that nobody wants to see a curated, perfect life. We want to see people as we feel and you know, we all have a cross to bear. We all have a struggle, a burden, and it's so much easier to share that out loud and together. And I think that when we can utilize social media in that way to where we are seen and heard and valued, that that can give us a leg up in life of connecting with folks that we might not have in our bubble wherever we are in this moment and in this life, but to really go out and say, oh, like, just like our alliance support groups. You're logging on to people in different countries and they're becoming friends and saying, you help me feel seen and heard. And that is what social media can do when used correctly. But it's up to us to really help kids, you know, college and beyond. You don't have to follow these people. And there are tools to help curate your feed to a way that doesn't, you know, harm your mental health. And sometimes we need a break and that's okay to. Curate your feed, unfollow, diversify your feed. And it shows resiliency. Thank you. This is such a wonderful conversation. And thank you for sharing that. And you mentioned, as you shared your story and what it's developed into. And it didn't-- it wasn't lost on me, 30,000 from over 80 countries. So, you know, kudos to you. Kudos. So now Alexandra, I want to come to you. I know your initiative, PROJECT BLACKBIRD, collaborates with NAMI On Campus, our youth-led mental health clubs led by students on high school and college campuses nationwide. Why do you think it's important to connect with youth on topics such as destigmatizing mental health. For so many various reasons, but one of the reasons that we really, really, specifically, do a lot of work in the youth space. Those are the next parents and the next leaders of our world. And when you can help change the narrative and change the mindset of the youth, they're going to be speaking to their children differently, whether those children are their own personal children or the world, you know, they're going to be the next leaders. So they're going to speak about mental health differently. And it's not that we don't want to help also somebody who is an adult, we want to help everybody. But you can really make, you can make generational change when you start with the youth. And the youth are actually so eager for the help. And you know, what I found, honestly, is that when, when we speak with the youth in the back of the room, what we hear is sometimes when the youth are open and vulnerable to speaking about mental health struggle, we hear, I'm hurting, I'm hurting, I'm hurting, I'm hurting, I'm hurting, I'm hurting, I'm hurting. And that's what we hear. And we're not seeing the, "What do I do about it?" And then you turn to the generation above, maybe the parent generation and you hear, "Get over it." So as we reach the youth, I try to shape it for them as,"Can we meet in the middle somewhere?" Can we say, I'm hurting? I'm struggling and I'm opening up about it. I'm being honest about it. And now how do we get better? How do we get over it? Per se, but not in a harsh way. Just how do we get better? How do we heal? But I do think it's so important to start with the youth. And it's also a space, you mentioned earlier-- Both McCall and I ended up in treatment in our 20s. It reall-- you start to experience a lot at a lot eating disorders, mental health struggles. You're seeing your peers and you're determining, where do I belong in this world as you're growing up, as you're in middle school, high school, college. So it's a space where you can start to rewire those neurons and reframe the messaging that they're receiving about themselves and where they belong. Yeah, change the narrative. Change the narrative. And empower them. And empower them to bring their full selves to their relationships into their, into experiences. I think there's something powerful too, you reminded me when you said, empower them. What I'm seeing, the shift that I'm seeing now as we grow, we've programmed a lot. We've, we visited over 50,000 students and community members, over 70 schools we've done now. And finally, I'm actually starting to see the students ask for it. I've had, in the past week, I actually had three students email me and ask if they could bring this to their school, if they could volunteer for the organization, if they could do something. And that's, I think that's empowering to me to know that the students, they do want help. They want to get better. They want programming like this, like both, McCall's and the one that we run. It's not one or the other. It's they want more. They just want more. They want help. They want, they want advocates. They want heroes and role models. They want individuals like us just being honest. And they're starting to grow this from the bottom up. They're voicing their own needs, and they're creating at themselves. Yeah. And they. And for them to know it's okay to not be okay. And, you know, speaking of this, and McCall, I'm gonna come to you, but I wanted to mention something to you about young people. One day, a young person came to me in the office and they said, well, I don't want you to take this the wrong way. I said, well, you know, I think I'll be okay. And they said, well, you know, we have this HelpLine and when I call the HelpLine, it sounds like I'm talking to you or my dad. And I said, tell me more. And he says, well, if you really want to help young people, they need to hear a voice on, when they call the HelpLine that sounds like them. So we tested and then, we beta tested, pilot, and now we have launched an option on our HelpLine that is staffed by youth and is for youth and young adults. And we're trying to actively listen and make sure that we are collaborating. So it goes back to what you're saying and what you guys, both of you are doing. So congratulations. And, McCall, I want to come to you. And I saw that you're, you, highlight embracing inner uniqueness with the young people you connect with. Would you share more about what that means to you, and how can that help young people? Well, I think, you know, growing up, it was always, okay, we got to check this box, right? You got you got to get the good grades in high school. Then you got to check the box and get to college, and you got to check the box and then get the job. And so it was all about like, chasing what I was supposed to do. And I never was given, nor did I ever give myself permission to figure out what I wanted or who I was. And I often tell from high school to college, you know, what is it that you want to do? And a lot of times, and a lot of our groups, we talk about our recovery "why's." And this is something that is such a powerful coming back into ourselves after experiencing an eating disorder, where whether, you know, you are listening to the outside critics or the inner critics, what is your recovery "why"? What is unique about you? Where do you want to go? What do you want to do? And giving students and this was part of my journey, giving myself permission to say, let's embrace me, my goodness. And to have the ability and the space, because eating disorder and mental illness takes up so much space in your brain. But to have that mental freedom to say, "What can I do? What do I want?" And when I left treatment, you know, I quit what I thought was my dream job. I was like, oh wait, that was not my dream job. And then I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do, but I'll figure it out. And then I found myself, you know, creating Southern Smash and telling my parents, yeah, I'm not going back to work. Instead, I'm going to start a nonprofit. We're going to smash scales on, you know, college campuses, and I'm going to travel the country and they're like, well your sister's a doctor. And I'm like, that's fine. I'll figure it out. And so really, it's about embracing who you are. And we're not all supposed to fit in this cookie cutter doctor, lawyer, this that mold. Great, kudos. Like good job to my sister. Good job to all those people that find their passion in that. But I think a lot of times in especially in the college arena, we get caught up in, I got to get into grad school, I got to get into here, I got to get into this med school and that, and it's like, wait, did we ever pause and say, what is my passion? What is my fire? Where are my talents? And how do I follow that? How do I feed into that? Because they're not gonna all look the same, they're going to be messy up and down and all around. And so it's really about pausing and looking inward to say, what do I want? Because I can tell you that throughout all my years experiencing my eating disorders, I was just cloaked in that shame. But I looked perfect. Everything was cookie cutter, perfect. And then here I am now, sharing a story that is messy and not perfect and not pretty. And I have found myself feeling the most authentic and real and vulnerable and worthy and beautiful in my skin than I ever have. And so I really want others to pause in the rat race that is life, especially life in the U.S of going and doing and accomplishing, accomplished and say, pause,"Where am I?" "Where am I in this? And what do I want in my life?" You feel so much more connected that way, too. Actually, if I can piggyback off of that. Yeah, would you piggyback? Go right ahead, please. Because that resonates so much with me personally, McCall, and I actually did myself, a lot of work. And I share this sometimes on panels around uniqueness, specifically what makes me feel present. What do I live for when I wake up? What am I excited about in my day and what actually keeps me really present? Not thinking in the future, not thinking in the past. For me, it's comedy. I love stand-up comedy, when I'm belly laughing. I mean, that's it. I live for that, I live for that. And also 2000s, early 2000s music that's a bizarre one. But I'll, I'll pop that on. I think there's like a Class of 2008 radio that I listen to. But both of those things keep me present. That's uniquely me. And I'll ask that question to a lot of a lot of the students, you know, what? What is it that really excites you when you wake up throughout your day, find that uniqueness and then tying that back, Dan, to, you asked a question earlier about, I think it was social media, body image, and diet culture. And we didn't get a chance to touch on the other two. But the, the body image concerns, I actually had, I had a young woman at a recent event asked me, recent it was Halloween, and she was asking a very legitimate question. She said, I'm really scared for Halloween because I have to wear a costume that shows my body and I don't like my body. And I said, now, wait a minute. First of all, why? Why do we feel like we have to show we have to wear a costume that shows our bodies, that it has nothing to do with Halloween. But what I said to her, we had just had the conversation about uniqueness and I said, I love when Halloween comes around because I love funny things. I love getting creative and finding a costume that's a pun, something that is-- so I was I was Miss Claus one year without Santa Claus. I was an independent Claus. If someone didn't get that and someone didn't think that was quirky and funny, that I made a grammar joke, they weren't my friend, anyways, it didn't matter. So I said to her, get creative, find something--And I also said, do you remember a single costume from five years ago that your friends wore? No, we're all in here. We're not paying attention really, to everybody else out here. They're not paying attention either. What they might remember is a quirky, funny costume or one that had, you know, that you really put effort into and painted. They're not remembering your body and what was shown there. They're not connecting with your body. They're connecting with your quirkiness, your uniqueness, your mind, the conversations you're having in that room. And can you have those conversations in the room if you're consumed with your body? Probably not. So you're disconnecting by focusing on that body image concern. Yes. It's valid. Yes, I understand, you know, Dan, you made a great comment earlier about how we are a cosmetic culture. We are we're a visual culture. And that's, and that's real. But it's not actually forming the connection that we want. So we have to acknowledge that and just be real with ourselves about that. And what is it that we really want in this world? And if it's connection, let's focus on that and what can bring us connection. Well, you all to helping so many. And thank you for building on that and adding such, rich content to this conversation and showing how much you care. And I love, what you talked about in terms of the body image. I also love about the inner uniqueness. Let's focus on the inner uniqueness. And that, that's powerful. And, there's so much power in the question that you asked that person about, "Do you remember what you wore for five years ago for Halloween?" Yeah, there's so much here. But what's interesting is that the young people having the conversation with you so that you can ask them these questions and get them to feel better about, what they're navigating. So again, congratulations to you. It made me think of something. As we get ready to wrap up, I wrote some words down that I'm going to share with you. Care, collaboration, community, and the collective. The one that I have as an outlier is competition. What have not heard and what we're not about is competition. We're about collaboration, community and the collective. And it is so cool to be engaging with both of you, because in this world it's such a competitive place. And right now, our young people need care and collaboration and community, and that's what you all are bringing. So I wanted to make sure I said that on behalf of NAMI and for what you do. So thank you. I appreciate it. And as we wrap up, we have one last question that we ask each of our guests. And you mentioned the United States a little while ago, but we say the world can be a difficult place, and sometimes it can be hard to hold on to hope. So with each episode, we dedicate the last couple of minutes of our podcast to a special segment called Hold On to Hope. So I'd like to ask each of you what helps you hold on to hope when you're not smashing those scales, McCall? Yeah, I love this so much. This is something that comes up in our alliance groups all the time, because it is really hard to find hope, especially in this world. And then when you're struggling with an eating disorder. And one thing that we always talk about and one thing that I have experienced in my own life, when someone told me,"Let me hold the hope." You know, hope can be heavy. And so sometimes we need someone else to hold it for us until we can come back to it. And so one thing we talk about in our in our group says, we will always, the Alliance will always be there to hold on, to hope for others. And for me personally, it's something that I really cultivated a practice of finding hope in the little ways throughout my recovery and throughout other life hurdles. And hope is found not in this, like rainbow glitter pie in the sky. Hope is found in these tiny, tiny crevices and the really, really hard times. And it might be a smile from a nurse that if you're experiencing something in the hospital, it might be a smile from a barista. It might be your furry pet. It might be just the tiniest little thing that can give you that little spot of hope. And if you're in a place where it's hard for you to hold onto hope, remember others can hold it for you until you're ready to come back for it. So that's what we always love to say, is that we are always here to hold the hope because we know recovery is possible and it is always happening. That is so powerful, McCall. Alexandra. Alex, what helps you hold on to hope? So much going through my brain right now? And that was so beautifully said, McCall. I'll take the different angle on it. Hope generally in the space of mental health and eating disorder, recovery. But what helps me hold on to hope in that world and that realm is the generational shift that that I've seen happen in my own lifetime. Even in other impact areas. And, this is very specific. But when I was, when I was growing up, when I was in high school, middle school, if I saw somebody honestly, at that time, if I saw someone throw a McDonald's bag out the window, I didn't think twice about it. I probably threw a McDonald's bag out the window because that's what everybody was doing. And in five years, you see somebody throw trash out of their car window and your stomach falls out of your body. I mean, your heart kind of skipped, jumps a beat, and what are they doing? And they're I mean, there are words that we used to use that you would never hear out in society now. And all of that changed in five years or less. So if that can change in five years or less, I have so much hope for the narrative around mental health to change dramatically in just five years. I really think it is, I know it is so possible. So that's what helps me hold on to hope is I've seen it happen and we'll see it happen again. That change is going to happen sooner than we know. Yeah, well, thank you both so very much. And you know what helps me hold on to hope is leaders like yourselves who are, evolving the narrative, changing the narrative, and, bringing so much care, because you could be working in other careers, but you've chosen this, and that's because you care. And that's what helps me hold on to hope. No one ever asked me in these podcasts, but I wanted to. I wanted to share that because I've found this to be, yeah, I found this to be such a powerful conversation. So, you know, this has been Hope Starts With Ss, a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. Our guests today have been McCall Dempsey, founder of Southern Smash, part of the National Alliance for Eating Disorders, an eating disorder survivor and passionate advocate for recovery. And Alexandra Miles, founder and CEO of PROJECT BLACKBIRD that is touring college campuses to address mental health stigma. Now, if you are looking for mental health resources, you are not alone. To connect with the NAMI HelpLine and find local resources, visit NAMI.org/help. Text "NAMI" to 62640 or dial or punch (800) 950-6264. Or if you are experiencing an immediate suicide, substance use, or mental health crisis, please call or text 908 to speak with a trained support specialist or visit 988lifeline.org. I'm Dan Gillison, your host. Thanks for listening and be well.