Previa Alliance Podcast
There are few experiences as universal to human existence as pregnancy and childbirth, and yet its most difficult parts — perinatal mood and anxiety disorders (PMADs) — are still dealt with in the shadows, shrouded in stigma. The fact is 1 in 5 new and expecting birthing people will experience a PMAD, yet among those who do many are afraid to talk about it, some are not even aware they’re experiencing one, and others don’t know where to turn for help. The fact is, when someone suffers from a maternal mental health disorder it affects not only them, their babies, partners, and families - it impacts our communities.
In the Previa Alliance Podcast series, Sarah Parkhurst and Whitney Gay are giving air to a vastly untapped topic by creating a space for their guests — including survivors of PMADs and healthcare professionals in maternal mental health — to share their experiences and expertise openly. And in doing so, Sarah and Whitney make it easy to dig deep and get real about the facts of perinatal mental health, fostering discussions about the raw realities of motherhood. Not only will Previa Alliance Podcast listeners walk away from each episode with a sense of belonging, they’ll also be armed with evidence-based tools for healing, coping mechanisms, and the language to identify the signs and symptoms of PMADs — the necessary first steps in a path to treatment. The Previa Alliance Podcast series is intended for anyone considering pregnancy, currently pregnant, and postpartum as well as the families and communities who support them.
Sarah Parkhurst
Previa Alliance Podcast Co-host; Founder & CEO of Previa Alliance
A postpartum depression survivor and mom to two boys, Sarah is on a mission to destigmatize the experiences of perinatal mood and anxiety disorders (PMADs), and to educate the world on the complex reality of being a mom. Sarah has been working tirelessly to bring to light the experiences of women who have not only suffered a maternal mental health crisis but who have survived it and rebuilt their lives. By empowering women to share their own experiences, by sharing expert advice and trusted resources, and by advocating for health care providers and employers to provide support for these women and their families, Sarah believes as a society we can minimize the impact of the current maternal mental health crisis, while staving off future ones.
Whitney Gay
Previa Alliance Podcast Co-host; licensed clinician and therapist
For the past ten years, Whitney has been committed to helping women heal from the trauma of a postpartum mental health crisis as well as process the grief of a miscarriage or the loss of a baby. She believes that the power of compassion paired with developing critical coping skills helps moms to heal, rebuild, and eventually thrive. In the Previa Alliance Podcast series, Whitney not only shares her professional expertise, but also her own personal experiences of motherhood and recovery from grief.
Follow us on Instagram @Previa.Alliance
Previa Alliance Podcast
To the Narcissist In My Life - Part 1
In this episode, Sarah and Whitney delve into the concept of narcissism, its origins, and how it impacts relationships. They discuss how narcissism is a learned behavior rather than a genetic trait and explore the different types of narcissism—grandiose, covert, malignant, and communal. The conversation highlights the challenges of dealing with narcissistic individuals and emphasizes the importance of setting boundaries and seeking professional help. Tune in as they examine the patterns and behaviors narcissists exhibit in relationships, and offer advice on how to navigate these toxic dynamics.
Hey guys, welcome back to PreviewLine's podcast. This is Sarah and I've got our favorite therapist, whitney. Hello Whitney, hey friends, whitney, we have not covered this topic, but I swear it's like a buzzword and it's became. You know, it's like so-and-so is a narcissist, or this is narcissistic traits, or, and you're kind of going well, what is a narcissist? Is everybody really a narcissist around me? Cause it seems like that is what I mean. If you leave and look like TikTok Instagram, you know you have all these therapists and psychologists and psychiatrists doing these very popular rules. I mean, it's resonating with people, so I'm like, let's talk about it.
Speaker 3:Yes, so narcissism is a personality disorder and more often than not, personality disorders are rooted in trauma versus genetics. So we talk about if your parents experience depression, anxiety, ocd, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, things like that. There is significant genetics that you have to be aware of and it puts you at a higher risk. Personality disorders differ because they are rooted in trauma. Now, that being said, if someone does have a narcissistic parent or authority figure during their formative years, are they higher risk to be a narcissist themselves? Absolutely, because they've learned it. They have learned it To them. That is their norm.
Speaker 1:They have learned it to them. That is their norm.
Speaker 3:So it is. It's terribly sad. It's a lot of learned behaviors that are normalized because what you grow up with in your home you assume is normal until, like, you go have a spend the night party with your friend and you're like your parents don't throw lamps across the room, like they're not yelling and screaming Like what's they said that they love you, like what's. This is weird. So when you're in the environment, you assume it's normal because that is your norm. So that's just kind of giving a little bit of background on narcissism, kind of the roots of it.
Speaker 3:Now, narcissism can develop outside of childhood. So let's just say you had good parents, no trauma is there, things are good. When you get to be a young adult, what if you have a boss? That's a narcissist? What if you have a friend that's a narcissist and they're really good at hiding it because narcissists are friend, that's a narcissist, and they're really good at hiding it because narcissists are Well, eventually you kind of learn those same behaviors is almost like a defense mechanism to protect yourself. So a narcissist is somebody that has no empathy. They don't care about other people, they care about themselves. And y'all have probably heard the term of a backhanded compliment. That would be a narcissist. So it could be. Oh Sarah, like that's such a good color on you, it would look so much better if you lost a little bit of weight.
Speaker 1:And it's I think too. You've been around these people and at first you kind of get lost in the compliment and you go wait, what, what did?
Speaker 3:you just say to me yeah, yeah, but then you think you're crazy a little bit because you're so good at it right because and you're up there thinking did they just say what I think they said, that, did they mean it that way? And you are second guessing yourself, which is a form of self gaslighting, takes away your confidence. So you're over there like is this right? Do I actually see it for what it is? And you're just very torn on Did that happen Because narcissists, more often than not, are actually close to you, loves me or is my family or my friend? They're not going to talk to me like that, right? Like?
Speaker 1:yeah, surely Aunt Brenda wouldn't do that to me, you know we've not talked about Aunt Brenda in a hot minute.
Speaker 3:It's time to bring her back. I'm just saying. Sometimes Aunt Brenda does things that she don't need to be doing.
Speaker 1:Okay, so what is a typical? The client comes in more than not right, or you've seen it when you've done couples or you've I've had a client that's a narcissist. Give us a scenario of kind of like a narcissist, so people can kind of picture, okay, who is this person and I know there's different types of narcissists but give us one kind of maybe the typical red flags.
Speaker 3:So the best way I know how to describe it and this was what I learned in grad school is the overt narcissist, so kind of the flashy one. Okay, so you think overt, it's over the top. Think of it like that way, it's going to be obvious. Is this person that's like look at me, look at me. They have this huge ego, chances are, they're good looking, they have connections, they've got money, which also gives them power and control in some scenarios. So it's that person that's. Just look at me, look at me, I'm fabulous. So if you've ever watched the movie Coco, ernesto de la Cruz is a narcissist. Everybody loved him, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:He was charming, he made himself look good, he might have even feigned some benevolence at some point, you know, but in the end we realized he doesn't care about anybody.
Speaker 1:Just himself.
Speaker 3:Just himself, Whatever would further him. He was absolutely willing to harm others and just manipulate them and use them and take advantage of them for his own good, for his own fame.
Speaker 1:Which is super interesting. You say that because when I was kind of looking up narcissism, I found out the origin of that word is myth. It's from the Greek mythology, narcissus, if I'm saying this correctly. So it was a young man who was known for extreme beauty and arrogance, so he was obsessed with himself. He rejected everybody else, you know. So one of his admirers, she was a nymph, echo. She was very heartbroken and when he ignored her, she faded away, only leaving her voice like the echo. You know, you hear it keeps going. And they said the gods punished him by making him fall in love with his own reflection in a pool of water, unable to look away. He eventually wasted away and died, turning into a narcissist's flower. So essentially, the mythology of it is he loved himself so much and everything else, including himself, died to that.
Speaker 3:It's all about them. The selfishness and the self-centeredness is a big one. So to put it in kind of like a real life example or scenario, a good one is a couple. That's probably the easiest way I know how to describe it is. You've got the wife that comes in and she's like you know, I'm just concerned about the fact that I can't like get my kids everywhere, that they need to be, maintain the house, go to work, and all the time he's over here saying, well, you're not doing enough or what you do isn't good enough, and it's very consistent Okay, it's not like you actually didn't do, like you didn't follow through on something, it is you can't do anything right. So it's that constant like jabs, jabs, jabs, jabs. And then he comes in and says, well, but if she would just do X, Y and Z better, the whole house would function so much better. So in that they victimize themselves and they villainize another person, there's no empathy of you know what. Maybe my standards are too high.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know, like maybe I need to back off of this just a little bit. There's none of that self-reflection or insight. That does not happen with a narcissist. They want the other person to constantly feel bad, feel bad about themselves, have that internal negative thought because one it creates fear. So with that fear we see submission, we see apologies and, as weird as this may sound, it actually creates codependency as well. So the victim of the narcissism feels like, well, nothing I ever do is good enough, but if I do this, this and this, he'll be happy with me. They're constantly seeking that approval therein. They are codependent on a narcissist and the narcissist knows it and it's control, it seems like the narcissists are, at their core, very insecure.
Speaker 3:Oh yes, very insecure, because chances are they had parents or caregivers who were very negative towards them, tore them down quite a bit. So what did they learn as a child? To be negative and tear others down so they look better. One book that is just such a good one is called the Narcissist Playbook the Narcissist Playbook, and it says how to identify, disarm and protect yourself from narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths and other types of manipulative and abusive people. Highly recommend this book. You can get it on Amazon fairly cheap. The person that wrote it didn't write it in such a way that you would assume they have a PhD. It's not going to get real wordy, but that is a great book for people to be aware of the gaslighting that can take place. Because we talked about overt narcissism, there is another type of narcissism called covert narcissism, and this is the person who's not very flashy. Sometimes they're just like Well, I tried everything I could and they're the martyr quite a bit.
Speaker 1:So always like Victim mentality, kind of Blaming.
Speaker 3:Kind of a woe is me and it's a Very Eeyore, it's attention seeking.
Speaker 1:Because a narcissist loves attention.
Speaker 3:It doesn't go back to. They never got positive attention.
Speaker 1:So any attention is a loves attention it doesn't go back to. They never got positive attention, so any attention is a good attention. With that insecurity and that criticism and it's about me, it's like this huge void and it's making me be like, okay. So this is how we talk about generational cycles. Right, it's like my daddy, now me, now I pass it to my kids. So the question is, do narcissists ever change with me? Is there like, if people are going, okay, whoa, this is describing my mother-in-law, this is describing my father-in-law, this is describing my husband right.
Speaker 3:so here's the thing about narcissism if they were to change they actually have to one, want to change to they actually have to. One want to change. Two, recognize and have insight that the things that they're doing are hurtful. A narcissist, 99% of the time, is not going to have that insight, nor are they going to want to hold themselves accountable.
Speaker 3:And a real life example for me was years ago when my husband was a youth pastor at a church. Now that we've stepped away from that church and been out and I've had to reflect, that pastor was a covert narcissist. It was a lot of woe. Is me or well, I guess if you can't fulfill that responsibility, I'll just go get somebody else. We have a lot of guilt trips Because, and I'll say this, I was the only minister's wife that worked outside of the home. Because, and I'll say this, I was the only minister's wife that worked outside of the home, and this was also when I was doing foster care. So I was working 60 plus hours some weeks and I didn't have this massive PTO bank to take off for vacation, bible school and the youth winter retreat and the youth summer retreat and Disciple Now weekends Like I did not have four or five weeks of PTO for church obligations.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And it was constantly well. I guess if you just really loved the youth more, you would put in the sacrifice.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 3:And you know me, at some point I get pushed so much that the sass comes out.
Speaker 1:Uh-huh.
Speaker 3:And this was also like baby Whitney we're talking like early mid twenties Whitney so I didn't have near as much of a spine back then as I do now. And one day I just looked at him and I said it really bothers you that you can't control my schedule, doesn't it? And the look number one, the look of shock in his eye, but also if looks could kill.
Speaker 1:And I guess it's a good point.
Speaker 3:You confronted a narcissist right, and that's the thing is narcissists hate boundaries, which we all don't like having rules and boundaries. Let's just be real, like nobody loves to have a boundary put on them. Okay, like if I were to come to you, sarah, and say I have a boundary for you, you probably, yeah, you probably, even though knew I wasn't saying that in real life probably a little twinge of wait a minute why.
Speaker 1:What are we?
Speaker 3:doing here, whitney, like a smidge of defensiveness comes up. Yeah, that's normal, that's appropriate, because we're getting called out. It's not enjoyable. Fair enough, but a narcissist hates a boundary. But that is exactly how you combat them.
Speaker 1:So how did you use a boundary with this man that you're, or what would you? You know now, Whitney, what boundary would been set. So we're equipping our listeners. Now say they do have a narcissist in life, and odds are, we all do. Some are very close to us, you know, some it's the boss, some it's a family member, some it's the neighbor, some it's the teacher, whatever. How do you set a boundary with a narcissist so?
Speaker 3:the thing is we don't always have to announce our boundaries. We don't always have to announce it because you are probably going to get an argument. Okay, I'd say there's a pretty good likelihood of that. So it can be that you know what. You don't respond to that text or call immediately. You start increasing that distance, whether it's physical, if you're capable of doing that, whether it's through communications, but you're showing them. You don't have that control over me anymore. It could be that you put that person on do not disturb. So you know. If you unlock your phone and you see you've got that little red dot there for your push notification, you know what. You can respond to that when you want to. You don't have to let them live rent free in your head every time your phone buzzes and it's them, or every time that pops up, their name pops up on your phone and you get that sinking feeling in your gut of I don't want to talk to them, but I have to and I don't want to like that overwhelming dread that is consistently there.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So we don't always have to announce our boundaries Now if it is something where they are very overtly kind of pushing you, like well, you should do this better and you should do that better, and that's just very, very critical. That is when, as best, you can react unemotionally. But you can have a stern voice. We can use our teacher voice or our mom voice, okay, and we can say I don't want to be spoken to like that because you know what you're saying or say I'm ending the conversation, If we can.
Speaker 1:If you continue to talk about this, we're not talking about this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and if you say I don't want to be spoken to that way, you're not even accusing them of anything. You're saying I have this preference.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Then if they say, talk to you like what? And it's still in that same tone and all the things, that's when you say I don't want to be spoken to like that. If it continues, I will be leaving and we make it focused because you know what that gives you control. That means you're in control of the situation, not them.
Speaker 1:Do you think that children of narcissists? How long do you typically see in clients and just situations it takes for them to realize maybe my mom or dad is a narcissist. Like when does kind of that awakening happen? Right, because in our formative years, like you said, we don't know different until you go and see different. Right, like we're very captive to our own environment. Right, like we're very captive to our own environment.
Speaker 3:That is such a good question and I don't know that there's like a hard and fast answer by like OK, at 28, you're going to figure it out that light bulb's going off. Because I've got clients who are in their 50s, 60s, early 70s starting therapy for the very first time and when they say these different traits about their parents, I'm over there like wait a second. And then I dig a little bit more and then I can say you know, that kind of feels like that's narcissistic and more often than not at those ages their parents have passed away and so we're not going to get you know closure or reconciliation or if that parent is still alive. It's a very odd relationship and so it's a risk versus benefit of do you bring it up Because it's probably not going to go well, and I tell people that.
Speaker 3:So what I encourage people to do is recognize it's probably not going to go well, but we can help you create your own closure here in therapy. We can work on these boundaries that need to be established. But then you've got people that are in their 20s and 30s and I will say I do feel like millennials were really kind of being the trailblazers, of undoing a lot of things and being more accepting of therapy and the generations under us. They are recognizing this in their early to middle adulthood and they're like, wait a minute, that is what's going on. And so those are the people that I say okay, where does your boundary need to be the risk versus benefit of maintaining that relationship? And if you do maintain it, what boundaries do you have to put in place?
Speaker 1:what do you see and I'll speak personal experience you know my father-in-law is a huge narcissist and it was a thing that I had to bring towards my husband of I will not tolerate being spoken to and treated this way or how he speaks to you or our children. And I did my own research and, honestly, through therapy, my therapist is like he is a narcissist, sarah. Through therapy, because it's like he is a narcissist, sarah, does your husband recognize that? And so I had to bring it to him and I think he always knew it was wrong in some sense. Right, but now we're unpacking this together and it's very difficult. So I mean, to speak to the person is like, okay, yes, my husband so, and so is, or maybe it is. You're not in charge that, you're not the direct relationship with the narcissist, but you're impacted by that relationship. There's the ripple effect.
Speaker 3:Yeah, how do you navigate that? Well, that's a toughie. So if it's almost like for you a vicarious narcissist in your life, or narcissist by proxy, it is one of those that you kind of gently tell your significant other friend, whomever it might be. Hey, do you think there's some narcissistic tendencies there? And I would start off by saying behaviors or tendencies, because it feels less accusatory, because you don't want the relationship between you and your significant other to get blown to pieces because of this, because that's another thing.
Speaker 3:You know, narcissists love chaos, they love drama, they love to isolate the people that they're abusing and that they're creating this codependency with, and so that's what they want. They want their actions to create strife. So when you do go to another person, someone that you love, someone that you care about, you can say, hey, I was listening to this podcast or I was in therapy or I was reading this book, like whatever your source is, say, and it made me kind of wonder about Mary Sue, it made me wonder about Aunt Brenda, like do you see it too? And you approach it from that way of do you see it too? That way it's not accusatory. You're being as delicate as you can be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because, I will be honest, it was not delicate the first time I brought it to him and I had seen a pattern of, in the beginning, his dad. It was not obvious, which I think. That is what in general. Like you know, there's the term love bombing, which explained better than me, whitney, if I, if I don't say it right but it's essentially like they keep oh my gosh, you're fabulous, look, look, how wonderful. I love you so much. Look amazing, like it's all this at once on you and as a bomb. Then it's like explodes and then that's not. Then they'll just be nasty and critical, but then they come back and hit you with all the like, confirmations and compliments right.
Speaker 3:So yes, that is love bombing, and we can't ignore gifts go into that.
Speaker 3:I want this for you. You know, I thought you would really enjoy this and you're over there very skeptical, very suspicious of them, like, thank you, and you know, to kind of keep them at arm's length. But it's also because that codependency has likely been established. You also don't feel like you can just break away. But you're right, it's like we have that cycle of abuse which I encourage everybody Google it.
Speaker 3:It's a fantastic diagram to show how this works is you have the honeymoon phase here at the top, everything's great and dandy. Then we hit the blow up stage and then we come back to the love bombing slash, reconciliation stage. It's like oh, I got you this necklace. Oh, I got you some flowers. Oh, I took your car to the car wash today Things that they don't typically do. That's the thing to keep in mind. Things they don't typically do. If your significant other takes your car to the car wash once a week, fine, that's kind of typical, that's usual, you would expect that. But if they never do that, but yet all of a sudden, your car's been professionally detailed, huh, that's peculiar, that's peculiar. And so that love bombing, reconciliation stage takes us back to the honeymoon everything's great. You have this, albeit false, sense of security. But you have a sense of security, you think things are great and dandy, you think the relationship is good. And then you do the slightest thing off, and it might not even be, but they view it as off.
Speaker 1:And then and they don't like being confronted, they don't like being challenged, they don't like. They don't obviously like it when you show no emotion, no response, set a boundary. So what is your? What do you tell clients who, when they are, they're like okay, I'm going to set a boundary, whitney, I'm going to be gray, rocking I've heard that term on Instagram where you're just no emotion, you're gray, you're like a rock, you're just unaffected. Or you're calling them out right, like so you've lived in this world, or this new person like me is in this relationship, and they're like hey, we're not doing this, we're breaking these cycles, we're not carrying this to our kids and you're getting this pushback from the narcissist right, because they've lived kind of this life of ruling the kingdom.
Speaker 3:Right, they're used to doing that.
Speaker 1:So what happens? Say this third party, myself then, or these persons come to this waking. Now it's about their dad, now it's about their best friend. They grew up with. What happens?
Speaker 3:there. So that's a good question. It can go so many different ways. So third person comes in, tries to enlighten the other party, their significant other, friend, loved one, to hey, have you kind of picked up on these tendencies, Do you see it? Things of that nature, If the other person starts to see it, they're gonna be very conflicted on. Do I sever these ties? Do I end this relationship or do I have boundaries in place? And when the loved one goes to the narcissist tries to establish those boundaries, it's gonna be a blow up with the narcissist.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It will in fact be a blow up because the narcissist is going to realize oh my God, I'm losing control, I'm losing this codependency. So if loved one tells the narcissist that, hey, my friend, significant other, whomever kind of, told me about this, you better believe the narcissist is going after third party.
Speaker 1:Which was very much my case, and it's hard because I wasn't prepared. So that's why I tell everybody if you have a narcissist in your life, get into therapy. If you are the person like me who's getting the shattered pieces on you or you're directly impacted, you need a professional to work through this, because you know, my husband could not that's still his father, and I think that's where we get issues with. Well, that's still my so-and-so, or I can't get them out of my life and you have to have a professional who can equip you and help you process and not necessarily process together all the time Right?
Speaker 3:Well, and one thing to be aware. Aware of and this is not the case for every narcissist let me just say that you need to be aware that sometimes a narcissist will seek out physical revenge because a narcissist yeah, a narcissist and it used to be called sociopath, but the dsm changed it to antisocial personality disorder. They're very, very close, like we wouldn't even call them cousins, they're brothers.
Speaker 1:And this is another reason why we are never saying this information for you to go out and say hi, so-and-so. I listened to bring these situations to a professional like Whitney and let them, who have the graduate degrees and all the training to help, do this Because, as she said, it is so close, there's so many things and terms that get thrown around, but really the diagnosis, the evaluation, has to be with a professional.
Speaker 3:Oh, absolutely Well, and the thing is, even I can't diagnose somebody that isn't my client. I can say that I see these traits, but even with that, there are times where narcissism and autism spectrum disorder can look a lot alike. I actually have a graphic that shows the differences between them. They can be very similar. Borderline personality disorder and narcissism look a lot of like with codependency, with enmeshment, with gaslighting and villainizing themselves. But a borderline has empathy.
Speaker 1:Empathy seems to be the big component here with narcissism. And empathy again is like just give us for people who are like okay, I think I know what empathy is, whitney, but like just give us where people are like okay, I think I know what empathy is Whitney, but like give me an example.
Speaker 3:So not to be like morbid, but I think this is a good example. When the helicopter and the plane crashed over the Potomac River, most people saw that and they thought that's horrific. How horrible for those families on those aircrafts but also the families that are left down here. How terrible for the service people that went out there to go do the search and rescues. We have that empathy. You hurt for that situation.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:As you should, and narcissists will be like eh sucks to be you. I mean it is just like as flat of an affect as you could have, or they're almost glad the bad thing happened. That's a huge red flag. That's a big red flag. That's where we do get into antisocial territory.
Speaker 1:Okay. Well, whitney, this is a good place to end. We're going to do a series on narcissists and some of the terms you hear, so our next episodes we're going to be covering gaslighting, we'll talk a little bit more about love bombing, we'll talk about some different responses, and so this is a lot to unpack. But, as always, we want you guys to know if you are struggling, if you are saying ding, ding, ding, this is resonating. If you are outside of our beautiful state of Alabama, go to Psychology Today. You can look and therapists or providers who specialize in narcissism. Or, again, our core is maternal mental health. So you can look for those who have postpartum support, international certifications, maternal mental health certifications. But please just get into therapy. This is too much a process on your own. It's a lot it's a lot.
Speaker 1:I'm in therapy when he's in therapy. Everybody should be in therapy, so it's all good. Okay, guys, we will be back next week with our next part of our series, see you soon bye maternal mental health is as important as physical health.
Speaker 2:The preview alliance podcast was created for and by moms dealing with Thank you. Join us and hear how other moms have overcome mental health challenges, as well as access tips and suggestions on dealing with your own challenges as moms. You can also browse our podcast library and listen to previous episodes at any time. Please know you're not alone on this journey. We're here to help.