The Haylo Effect Podcast

Five Generations, One Workplace

• Trish Hewitt • Season 2 • Episode 8

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Five generations now share the same workplace—and the headlines say we’re in constant conflict. We take a scalpel to that narrative with Matt Cook, co‑founder at culture consultancy The Shift, and trace where friction really comes from: life stage, economic context, and mismatched signals of value, not innate differences in work ethic. From the ancient “youth are lazy” gripe to today’s debates about remote work and Slack etiquette, we unpack the myths and get to the mechanics of how modern teams actually function.

Matt walks us through the changing markers of ambition in a digital world where output can be created in bursts and presenteeism is a poor compass. We explore the power flip inside organisations—formal authority often sits with senior leaders while crucial digital expertise lives with newer hires—and how that tension can either stall progress or spark innovation. The key, we argue, is to legitimise where the expertise is, grant decision rights to match, and remove the blockers that keep good ideas from moving.

Communication becomes the proving ground. We offer a simple framework: define what each channel means, set response expectations, and write the full ask up front to support asynchronous work. We also address the post‑pandemic soft‑skills gap and share practical ways to rebuild confidence in phone calls, direct feedback, and difficult conversations. Rather than adding rigid policies, we advocate for clear principles and flexible application, so teams can honour different needs without losing coherence.

To make the benefits real, we highlight reverse mentoring as a two‑way learning engine and the role of storytelling in spreading evidence of intergenerational wins—from enterprise examples to research‑led breakthroughs. The takeaway is straightforward: see the person, not the stereotype, while staying alert to the contexts that shape them. Subscribe for more candid, practical conversations on culture, and tell us: what’s one principle you’d set to make collaboration across ages easier?

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IMPORTANT INFORMATION: This video is published by Trish Hewitt of Haylo HR HR. The information in this video is for general guidance only and, although the presenter believes it was correct at the time it was recorded (September 2025), the law may have changed since then. You should always seek your own legal advice. This advice adheres to employment law within England, Scotland and Wales.

SPEAKER_00:

Right, so welcome back to another episode of our podcast. And today I'm joined by Matt Cook from The Shift, and we're going to be talking about intergenerational workforces. So a super interesting one. Matt, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you very much for having me.

SPEAKER_00:

You are more than welcome. So before we get started, tell our listeners and watchers a little bit more about you and what you do.

SPEAKER_01:

Sure. Okay, so I'm Matt. I'm the co-founder of a company culture consultancy, which is an alliterative mouthful, but basically means that we get to spend our time with interesting organizations thinking about how the company culture can either enable people to flourish or can get in the way and create barriers to people reaching their potential. And we do that in a few different ways. Primarily, we think about mindset shifts. So what do we need to learn, grow, what new knowledge? How do we see problems with a new mindset? And culture shifts. How do we think about the systems, processes, and the environment so that we can do that at scale? So that's it with a shift and we think about mindset shifts and culture shifts.

SPEAKER_00:

I feel so the perfect person to talk to about intergenerational workhorses. So for those people who don't know what we're talking about when we say that, what exactly does that term mean from your perspective?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's another one of those unnecessarily long words that basically just means with working with people of different ages. Um, intergenerational, so cross-generations, an intergenerational workforce is basically a company, a workforce, an organization where there are multiple generations working together. And the reason that that's particularly interesting now is that for the first time in history, there are five generations making up a workforce. Not all the time, because you kind of have to be straddling either uh fairly old or very young, but we work with an organization who uh has six generations, not necessarily in the workforce, but they work as a housing group with the elderly as customers and clients, uh, and then they also have apprentices. So there are more generations working together than ever before, and that means you have a diverse range of expectations and norms when it comes to how we work together, which can sometimes result in tension.

SPEAKER_00:

I suppose the thing I always struggle a little bit with when we're talking about generations is that kind of generalization piece. Because I guess I think about myself, like I'm selfish in that sense, and but I'm in my 40s, don't tell anyone. Um but I would say I'm quite different to a lot of other people that I meet in my 40s. So then when we talk about kind of particular generations and the way that they interact in the workplace, my experience of the workplace is quite different to others. How do you think that works? Because we kind of generalize in terms of how we treat generations. I don't know if I'm just waffling here, but you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_01:

So if we think about each generation entered the workforce at a very different time, economically, culturally, sociologically, technologically, and that has all shaped that generation's attitudes when it comes to working, communication, the relationship with work, with meaning. And that definitely is true, and there is a you can to a certain extent generalize some of those, but that falls down when you then are thinking about an individual, because any individual person will vary in some of those attitudes with some of those perspectives. So whilst we never want to broad brush and generalize, it is useful to acknowledge the kind of context through which each generation is operating and maybe how that shaped their norms and expectations while still being really flexible, empathetic, and open to the individual that you're actually talking to.

SPEAKER_00:

I think you touched on it a little bit earlier, saying, are there any kind of myths or misconceptions around attention that's linked to intergenerational workboards?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, definitely. And I'm gonna find a quote because I'm gonna put it back on you and I'm gonna play a little game. Okay, so can you tell me which generation you think said this quote? Our youth now love luxury, they have bad manners, contempt for authority, they show disrespect for elders, they love to chatter instead of exercise. They no longer rise when elders enter the room, they contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up their food, and tyrannize their teachers.

SPEAKER_00:

I would say any apologies, Mum, but I probably say my mum's generation. My mum, um, I hope she didn't mind me telling the wild, but my mum is one of the late 70s.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so probably would fall into the kind of classic boomer category. Yeah. And I would have said the same thing the first time I heard it. And I was being a little bit unfair, it's from 2,400 years ago in ancient Greece. And the reason that I I love that as an example is every generation, seemingly throughout history, thinks that the younger generations are lazier, ruder, and have no respect for authority. And the reason I think it's interesting, you kind of were talking about uh tensions or maybe myths about the tensions. And I'd say one of them is that younger generations um are lazier, have no respect. And I think it's useful to just remind ourselves that clearly for at least 2,400 years, when I think Socrates was writing in ancient Greece, humans have been having the same thoughts about younger generations. So maybe it's not true. Maybe the stereotype isn't as true as we think it is. And there's some other kind of myths that I think are worth recognizing. Uh so mentioned around kind of millennials or Gen Zs being lazy or entitled. Uh, most of the research actually finds there isn't much difference between generations when it comes to um work ethic. However, the thing that has shifted is the context in which we are all working. So uh older generations, the economic climate in which they were working, they were able to buy a house, support a family on a single income. That's now not the case for many younger generations. Unfortunately, that gets played out as the classic, uh, if you just stopped having avocado toast, you could afford a house type headline. And I think journalists are really often to blame for a lot of these bad stereotypes that create the tensions between the generations, because a lot of the evidence shows that there's more similarity between them. That's not to say that it's we're it's all the same. I kind of talked about there will be differences in expectations and norms and communication preferences, but generally they most generations have more uh in common. Um, and certainly the myth of the lazier entitled younger generations just isn't true. Uh or if it is true, it's been the case for 2,000 plus years.

SPEAKER_00:

So why are we consistently thinking that younger people are lazier? I suppose in my head I'm thinking, is that a change in the working environment? So systems that we have now are many make meals easier, but what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_01:

So I think it comes down to uh it seem it much of the research seems to suggest it actually is more about life stage than birth cohort. So as you are at a certain life stage, you share similar needs, desires, or or your preferences change. Um so I think that that is impacting certain older generations' perspectives on younger generations. Uh I do think also that the the change in technology has changed how work is perceived to be created, or the if we think about kind of value of work, that actually you can create the same amount of value in one hour as you maybe could when you were working more analog. And actually that you know, you think about um the word completely escapes me, but bro, presenteism, the idea that just because you're sat at your desk, it doesn't mean you're actually doing any work. And I think that technologically uh has shifted so that it's not so clear where the value is when it comes to work. So older generations maybe are looking for the cue points they used to reference. Is the person at work? Are they showing up at nine o'clock to determine if that person is ambitious? And I just think it shifted. I think ambition has shifted. Um, and I think that um the value is more invisible now.

SPEAKER_00:

Are there any kind of unique strengths that you would say each of the generations bring to the right lines?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think um part of me thinks that it's largely down to, like I mentioned, life stage, um, but also the technology plays a huge role in this. So older generations, baby boomers are gonna have more institutional wisdom uh and experience if you're at a company for longer and typically they stayed at a certain company, they have a lot of experience. Um, they know things that have happened, they can draw on that wisdom, which is gonna be a huge strength. Um, not only that, but that experience and wisdom often uh translate to confidence, which is great, that they are more confident in their abilities or within that company because they have the experience. On the reverse, on the other side, kind of with Gen Z, you obviously have more digital natives. So they are more technologically savvy, so they're gonna bring a lot more knowledge around how to use AI, how to use evolving technologies to the workplace than maybe baby boomers would naturally. Not to say that baby boomers can't get on board and grapple with it, and I'm sure there are many in that generation that have blogs about this. So again, we're not trying to generalize, but typically Gen Zs have grown up with technology, whereas baby boomers have had to adopt it. So it's slightly different. One of the interesting things that plays out between that is if you think about power in an organization, often traditional power resided with those in positions of hierarchy or authority. And that that tends to happen as you get older. So people that are in older generations have more formal power. They have a certain title that grants them an amount of power. That is slightly being upended by younger generations having more knowledge about the digital world, which is for many organizations where most of the value nowadays is being created. So you have people in positions of authority with formal power, in certain situations, having less power than the intern that is running their social media and or is setting up their CRM or is using Google ads to completely change their marketing. Um and that can create a tension. Um, because whilst the intern has informal power in that situation, they don't actually have power to make changes to get things done. Uh so that can either create attention, or when it works harmoniously, you get the people in positions of power and authority enabling, empowering the people with um the informal power around knowledge, and you get a really nice working relationship. So there are definite strengths that can be used. It's not just uh tensions, uh, there are ways to work harmoniously with the different strengths. I honestly think the main friction point is believing the stereotypes, which is really hard when I've just talked about. There are some clear differences in attitudes. Um, but I guess what I mean by believing the stereotypes is believing the kind of clickbaity headline stereotypes about generations. Things like millennials are entitled and lazy, or um baby boomers, um, you know, you can't teach an old dog new tricks, that type of thing. I think that's that is probably the the biggest friction point is getting drawn into those labels and myths and not seeing the human that you're talking to.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Um with that being said, there are I think two real friction points. Uh the first one is kind of related maybe to the stereotypes, is a lack of contextual understanding. So what I mean by that is different generations often fail to appreciate the structural contexts shaping their attitudes and decisions. So, for example, I mentioned how um you get articles like avocado toast um and house buying, and the failure to go a step further and ask why aren't younger generations buying houses in the same way that we did, and understanding that the context economically is just so, so different for this generation. Um, so I think the the one of the biggest friction points related to believing the stereotypes is kind of ignorance or a lack of understanding around the context that that is forming that generational attitude. I think there's probably uh another one which is around communication. We do see that communication styles differ quite dramatically from uh generation. Older generations are used to picking up the phone, just being more direct. Um, with younger generations, you can't get them on the phone for love nor money. And if it starts to ring, they think something has gone awfully wrong. Um, you know, you pick up the phone, they go, Oh, what's up? And like, no, just just calling. Uh so there's definitely a a change in communication preferences. Um, we've actually seen that since the pandemic, there is a decline in soft skills for younger generations that is gonna cause quite an issue. It's already causing issues in organizations, uh, and that's gonna cause more tension and friction. Um, not only because the generations are not gonna be communicating effectively with each other, but also um there is something to be said for being able to pick up the phone when you need to and get someone on the end of it, rather than sending five emails and avoiding that difficult conversation. And unfortunately, because of the pandemic, um, many younger generations just haven't had that socialization. And the impact of that with some of the clients we're chatting with is actually a loss in revenue, you know, not winning that contract, not retaining that business. Uh so yeah, it's it's starting to have an issue uh an impact uh beyond just culture.

SPEAKER_00:

That communication point really resonates with me. So I've got two nourishing that I'll twins. Yeah, they prefer evil things like Snapchat. If I try and send them a message on WhatsApp, but if I try to pull them, they're like they but they prefer Snapchat and things that disappear. Whereas I older I could get them all and message you about. So yeah, it does it's it's interesting because I I mean I jest, but actually that does spin in this little life environment, and how do people manage that? So I suppose that's my bullock question. As kind of leaders and managers, so we know there's leading to generational differences. What does good look like when we're trying to manage this workforce that's quite different and varied?

SPEAKER_01:

At the risk of sounding trite and cliched, so you'll have to forgive me. It really does start with empathy, emotional intelligence, which I think is a crucial one. I talked about seeing the human um not the stereotype. But I think a large part of that is in order to have empathy, you have to have understanding and awareness of the cultural context shaping that person. So it isn't to say that, oh, okay, we don't need to think about generations, because I think you absolutely do. I do think it tells us something important about the norms and expectations that that person has grown up with and therefore may have. So I think you need definitely large dose of healthy emotional intelligence to be able to understand the cultural context and the person you're chatting with to not see, okay, that's a boom. You've probably, you know, the classic okay boomer meme viral that went viral, which is uh has a truth to it at the heart of it and is also incredibly dismissive and rude. Uh and you know, I can I can see both sides. Um so how do you get beyond that? So I think that's the first part is EQ, and the other part is probably AQ. So we talked about emotional intelligence. Uh, this would be adaptability. So AQ would be your adaptability quotient. I think leaders need to now more than ever uh develop their ability to be adaptable, not only because we've talked about the changing technological um factors impacting generations, but technology is just changing at an ever-increasing rate. The world is changing at an ever-increasing rate. We're in the age of change, and it's going to be people and leaders' ability to adapt that I think is going to um see them successful. And therefore, that also just means adapting to who you're talking to, adapting communication preferences, adapting um certain uh styles of communication or of management of feedback or whatever it is, depending on who you're talking to.

SPEAKER_00:

All that a policy, all there with not a poison stuff. Is it something that we need to all this needs to world, or is this just something that should be innate in the way that people interact and work with each other?

SPEAKER_01:

So I guess I should admit that I'm more in on the culture side than HR, so I don't want to make any legal claims here. But my default tends to be that I that I think certainly in this regard, you don't want to create too many additional policies around this or pro processes are fine, but policies um can get your hands tied up. Um I think it comes down to flexibility. I think fairness is a really interesting word when it comes to this. I go back and forth as to how important fairness is. And what I mean by that is the sentiment of fairness, absolutely, but people need different things at different stages in their life. And if we end up creating certain policies around, well, this person gets that, so therefore everyone gets this, then actually we're not really seeing the human. We're not seeing that, okay, younger generations have a greater need for probably social connection and collaboration. They probably want to be um around teams more, they probably need to learn more in person. Uh, they may need more social events than older generations who maybe have families that don't want that as much or can't due to caring uh responsibilities. So I think the flexibility is a is a really important part here. Um and yeah, I guess I'd put it back to you, as definitely the the the expert in HR. How do you balance flexibility and fairness when it comes to then policies around this?

SPEAKER_00:

Then he was making the point earlier around kind of just awareness and like awareness of people's different experiences of the world that are kind of linked to um the generation that they're in. I think that's probably the key thing. Because if you spend a lot of time writing specific policies and that kind of thing, that probably isn't gonna work. As your writing policies, being aware of people's different experiences and how that works for doing your workplace. I think that makes sense. And but I don't think you need like a specific intergenerational workplace policy, otherwise you're gonna have conversations. And I think it's just it's just an education piece, right? And people being aware, leaders will particularly be aware of the kind of companies that they work for, the types of people that work for them, and how to engage and communicate and all that and any good stuff. Yeah, that's probably my HR valve there.

SPEAKER_01:

That makes sense, yeah. And I think about principles maybe over policies for some of this. So whilst I said it's important to be flexible and to adapt communication styles, I don't think that means you have to, as an organization, be everything to everyone. I think that you can say this is the our team's culture and how we uh communicate, and maybe you would get input on that so you're not just dictating it. But I think it's okay to say if I'm sending you a Slack message, it's not urgent. So you don't have to look at it straight away. But if I call you, it is going to be urgent. So would love for you to pick it up. If I email you, I'm kind of expecting maybe you to get back in a couple of hours. So maybe you set some principles around communication. You maybe set some principles around feedback, which might be uh feedback is direct and and you know, honest and growth-oriented, but you may flex how you deliver it. You may have someone that prefers to receive it in writing first so they can digest it and then have the conversation. I personally would prefer to have it in person at that time. So I think you want to be flexible and maybe still have some cultural principles that you adhere to, your values are gonna be a super important part of the way you live this. Um and my hope is that if that's done well, you don't need the policies around this anyway.

SPEAKER_00:

I think that's a brilliant thing. Communication piece. No one does that, no one sets the boundaries. And I've been in personally been in so many scenarios where my slack's going off, my emails are going off, my teams are going off, but bangs going off, and I've no idea how to understand what to prioritise, and you've fucked some communication stuff like it's just stressful. I think it's so important to keep the advice that you know definitely.

SPEAKER_01:

Totally. And uh, we're gonna go off topic, but I'm gonna talk about a bugbear of mine because you've you've opened Pandora's box. Um when people send, and again, this is my communication preference, so here we go. Uh when people send a Slack or a Teams message that because it seems like it's instant messaging, that's what it's called, right? Instant messaging. So they'll send like a hey, and that's it. And I'm and I'm working, and I'm like, okay, I know there's more, I know there's probably an ask at the end of this, but I now have to stop what I'm doing and go, hey, and then they go. Then they send the actual message, which is have you uh do you mind sending me that report or whatever it is? And I think it goes back to the confusion around um communication preferences, but also uh there's the word like asynchronous or synchronous. Like, is it actual instant messaging, or should we treat that more like an email so that I can send you, Trish, the full thing, you can see it, you can choose. Do I need to get onto this right away, or can I wait till later? So that's a personal bugbear, but one that we often share with organizations because when I share that, other people are like, oh my god, absolutely. I hate receiving a hey, how are you? And then nothing. Because it's like, that's nice, I want to connect, but also I know that there's something else coming.

SPEAKER_00:

It I guess the instant and instant messaging because it just conditions you say, oh, okay, we'll need a response.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's urgent, that's important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Cool. All right, so we've talked about lots of really useful and insightful um information. So thank you so much for that. Is there any or any examples that you can give from organisations that you've worked with, or maybe case studies, of where this has worked well so that people have got that kind of practical kind of feel for what we're talking about?

SPEAKER_01:

The first thing that just woke to mind is have you seen I think it's a channel four show old people and four-year-olds. It's like something to do with like four-year-olds, uh like the secret lives of four-year-olds, or it's to do with old people and four-year-olds. I'm getting a blank look, so no, this sounds crazy. But there's I think it's old people's homes and four-year-olds, something like that. And they pair up four-year-olds who go into old people's homes, and there's a just such a joy of watching these children just completely change the energy of not only the room, but how the old people see themselves. There's a lovely example where there's kind of a curmudgeonly older man who doesn't really move much, he's always got a stick. At the start, he's kind of like, Well, I can't really see the point in this, and then the transformation in him where he's now walking without a stick and he's like spry and sprightly. Um, and the reason that that sprang to mind is um the idea of kind of like reverse mentoring. That when we think about mentoring, we often think about what can younger generations learn from older generations, but there's a lot um happening at the moment around reverse mentoring. So, what can older generations learn from younger generations? So making that relationship rather than kind of a one-way flow, but more two-way, which not only I think is useful for older generations, but also I think it activates a curiosity uh that wasn't isn't necessarily there in a traditional mentoring relationship. Um, we're working with a number of organizations, and what we often kind of suggest like reverse mentoring as a great way um to support intergenerational working, to build relationships, but just to make that kind of flow of learning go both ways. Um, there's quite a number of other organizations have done it. Um, famously there's like IBM um have done um reverse mentoring. Um when I was researching this recently, I came across an interesting um example of reverse of kind of intergenerational working at Michigan Tech University, and they'd invented a new cheapest way to 3D print metal. Uh, and they talk about the success came from their multi-generational team, that they had um technical, deep domain knowledge from older Gen Z people, they had kind of software knowledge from millennials, they had experience from boomers, and I just thought it was a really cool example and acknowledgement from that innovation that we know we credit this to the fact that we have a really diverse age range and the different strengths that that that brings. Um, so yeah, I'd probably say kind of we're seeing reverse mentoring as a really useful way to support intergenerational uh working. And I mentioned kind of the housing group that we work with. Uh they have not only a large range of generations in the workforce, but because they are a housing group, the people that are living in their homes are, of course, from every single generation. And we've been working with them around the power of storytelling, how the leaders can tell stories in the organization of the work that they're doing, the impact that they're having. And stories are a great way as well to kind of bridge the gap, I think, between the generations and to tell these types of stories, to break down the stereotypes and tell the types of stories that I just shared from Michigan Tech.

SPEAKER_00:

So we're probably coming towards the end of our time, which sucks because I've really enjoyed it. So with one tip that you would give to you kind of leaders that are working within intergenerate with intergenerational workforces, what would you tell them to do that will make a bit of a difference?

SPEAKER_01:

I would it probably it comes back to the um the principle of kind of seeing the person, not the stereotype. And that's maybe the more soundright catchphrase part, but I think within that is in order to do that, that means you have to develop your emotional intelligence, you have to develop your understanding for that generation's um social, economic, cultural context. So for older generations, what was it like when they entered the workforce? What was the world like? Why do they have certain attitudes? And right the way down to younger generations, how is it so, you know, what what is making it difficult for them with work? If you think about rent, if you think about all of that. So yeah, I think the soundbite is kind of see the person, not the stereotype, but not to be blind to the differences in generation, Jason, generational attitudes.

SPEAKER_00:

Awesome. Look, thank you so much for your time. If people want to get hold of you and use your brain, what's the best way to get hold of you?

SPEAKER_01:

Um, they can find me on LinkedIn as Matthew Cook. Uh it will be all lowercase. Uh that's probably one of the ways to identify that it's me. Uh also theshift.company uh on the website. And just drop me an email, Matthew at theshift.company. I love these kind of chats. So if anyone wants to have another one, uh, I'm all ears and occasionally mouth.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you so much.