Why Don't We Talk About This?
You already know that there are a bunch of things people talk about in pockets or completely avoid. Things that may be controversial or uncomfortable but we need to get them off our chest. During "Why Don’t We Talk About This?", licensed clinical social worker and psychotherapist, Paula McMillan-Perez speaks with folks whose learned experiences and/or professions give way to a diverse knowledge of topics that we just aren't talking about...but should be!
Why Don't We Talk About This?
Talking about Working with Children in Schools w/ Debbie Gonzalez, LCSW
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Debbie discusses the challenges of working with children in school settings, emphasizing the need for adults to develop their emotional intelligence. She highlights the impact of unresolved adult trauma on children and the importance of understanding the context behind children's behaviors. Gonzalez critiques the common practice of punishing children for misbehavior, such as withholding recess, and advocates for a more compassionate and empathetic approach.
In this episode, you will hear:
+ the role environment and parental input
+ expectations and behavioral changes
+ impact of trauma and emotional intelligence
+ role of social workers and professional development
+ importance of community and consistency
+ addressing systemic issues and long-term solutions
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Debbie, please introduce yourself to the people.
Debbie Gonzalez, LCSW:Well, my name is Debbie Gonzalez, and I am the youngest of five, born of Puerto Rican parents, raised in public housing, educated through their sacrifices and influenced by strong Latinas. And that's the lens that I bring to social work, to leadership, to coaching.
Paula McMillan-Perez, LCSW:Oh, well, I mean, just off that little slipper right there. We could go in so many different directions, because we know there's a whole host of things that people are talking about in, you know, not just the scope of Social Work, the scope of culture, the scope of, you know, sacrifices our parents have made for us, and you know so much more, but I do know that you have a little something in mind that you kind of wanted to bring to the table to kind of pick apart
Debbie Gonzalez, LCSW:today. Well, I think that lens is really what fuels my fire, because while I've held various roles in my career, I always relate to the child. I'm closely related to that child, and it comes from experiences of adults that kind of you know they want to tell your story. They did, and I had an experience very early on, I might have been five, where an adult was retelling an event, and I took it as she was lying, and I called her out on it and and what she said was, well, that's how the person took it. And it was such a deep moment, and so that I find myself in my work and in my in and my connection to school settings and child welfare, relating to the child who often doesn't have a voice, and we have really overwhelmed and frustrated adults who got into those arenas with the premise of helping children, then kind of blaming the kids for the behaviors, for the lack of coping skills, right? And that's so that's kind of what, what brings me to this conversation, because those you know is that, why don't we? Why don't we talk about this? Because it's this is a hard one. This is the one that I make people most uncomfortable with when I talk about the fact that it's the adults around the children that need to get their emotional intelligence in line in order to better serve the kids.
Paula McMillan-Perez, LCSW:I can only imagine the non verbals that you see just saying that, before you even get any verbal responses from folks, especially as somebody who has worked in schools for quite some time and has seen the shift from, let's say, beginning of the school year, you know, sometimes in charter schools in August, September, here in New York, and, you know, southern states a little bit earlier than that, and seeing where people are by November, December, even thinking about March, when there's no days off in March, and thinking about how things have shifted, thinking about the fact that, you know, Sometimes based on the varying leads and expectations that adults in variety of different capacities that they are in a school building are have on their plate. Sometimes they also forget. How could I possibly be should be showing up in this space, so I really appreciate the fact that you hide at it like that. But man, would I love to be a fly on the wall when you were doing your coaching around this? Because I can only imagine not just the level of pushback, but even, like, I mentioned, the lack of awareness, like, like, that's not like, I'm not doing that, not thinking that you're not looking outside of yourself to see, like, what is really happening.
Debbie Gonzalez, LCSW:Yeah, and that's the hard part, right? Because the you know, you have adults who have good intentions and they got into this to do well, many get into it, right? Because, and in social work, all of it you get into because you want to lean back and pull up those behind you. You want to be that person that you might not have had in your own coming up. And yet, if we haven't healed, right? So there was some of the conversations of the conference yesterday, but if we haven't healed, we're then spilling that injury onto others. And so it's difficult to say to someone, wow, the you were intending to help this little one who was distressed, and you actually re traumatize them by the way in which you engaged. It's hard to take because no one wants to be the. Label that right? And yet we so easily label the children, and particularly when you look at children in school settings, their story goes with them from grade to grade to grade, and they don't get to reinvent themselves. And so often they're held to whatever the little mistakes had been. And I mean, I, you know, I unfollow people on social media because of that same thing, right? Like, you know, it's one thing to share funny stories and by kind of the the experiences we that we have, but there's a difference when the stories are all about just complaining and othering and just, you know that little monsters, right? The children are now little monsters. Their families are terrible, and so I am follow, because there's no compassion and and they're helpless. The kids are helpless, you know, the especially the younger ones, right? And then you wonder, why, when they get older and they have attitude, well, why wouldn't they have attitude? This been, you know, that's part of the defense mechanism that they're building to try to block some of that. And so, yeah, I can't feel passionate about
Paula McMillan-Perez, LCSW:No, I can tell. And I think that you're in a unique position because of the work that you do, that you have the lens and the voice to be able to call it out in that way. One of the biggest struggles that I remember facing was seeing some of these similar things, but being, for lack of a better term, part of the machine like you can't be that cog in the machine that is spinning at a different rate or a different frequency, because you're throwing things off and even being told what I could and couldn't say to parents, or what I could and couldn't say to students, despite the fact that I wasn't saying anything unprofessional, anything inappropriate, but it goes against the status quo. And my biggest, I guess, pushback, was that we did elementary school, we did middle school, did high all the, you know, different places that I worked in, it's these kids turn now, yeah, we are professionals in whatever capacity that we are in. So doesn't it? Isn't it part of our responsibility to make sure that we can infuse as much equity as possible into the work that we're doing. And to go back to what you were saying too about the families, it's just like everybody got something going on. Everybody now we only know what we are told sometimes, you know, based on our, you know, clinical skills, learned experience, educational pedagogy, things of that nature, we can kind of put two and two together based on what we're seeing, but we never have the full story. And I always appreciated parents who would say, oh, like, my kid isn't like this at home. And I know that you that's a phrase that used to drive people crazy, yeah, and part of the reason for that is not that it's not the same child, but what they are seeing, what they are feeling comfortable letting go or not feeling comfortable to let go, is a direct result of the environment they're in. So you very well may be seeing a different kid at home because of their level of comfort, because of their level or lack of support, because of what physical or what people are in their environment, in these places. So I actually appreciate hearing, oh, my child does not like that at home, because it tells me that I need to be looking for different things. And
Debbie Gonzalez, LCSW:you know, and I love that you bring up that, that that phrase, because that one comes up all the time, and it gets shut down automatically, right it? You know, it's a dismissal of the of the parent. The parents experience that that can't possibly be the case. And why could the child not behave differently in different environments? We show up differently in different environments, right? And so I think you know, what I push for is the curiosity about what might be going on for a child in a moment. And my biggest question is always, what was the precursor? What was the precursor to that behavioral outburst? And when you start breaking it down, there are often slights that are happening by the adults that don't realize it in their haste to get done the things they have pressures off, right? Why is it that we have this expectation of children sitting with their little hands fold and I mind you, I went to Catholic school, and I still hold my Oh, girl. I still have that problem. But that's another story. The but we had this expectation of children sitting quietly, just taking in, I have not been in an adult setting yet,
Paula McMillan-Perez, LCSW:and you won't, but the adults are sitting quietly that can
Debbie Gonzalez, LCSW:hold it together, right? The inappropriate comments. The call out to who's moving, the shifting, the getting up now, and with the devices, who's on the phone, whose behavior changes depending on who's at the head of the table, right? All of those things. And yet, we get into a classroom, and we have the power dynamic, and we expect children to be able to behave in a way that's just not real. And then it becomes Right? So there's the idea of it's not about consequences, right? So so often it's about punishment and wanting to create a pain point, because you cause me pain with your misbehavior, and I need to now get back at you. Oh, every time I hear about a child being withheld from some celebratory event in the classroom
Paula McMillan-Perez, LCSW:or recess. Oh, recess. Don't get me started on recess, right? Don't
Debbie Gonzalez, LCSW:get me started on the whole cycle that you're creating to to to amplify the very behavior you don't want because we need physical movement to get the energy out, and now you've made me uncomfortable, probably yelling like I had a situation just last night with adults, right? You know? And it's and the person was trying to emphasize, I was not getting the note. I was singing, right? I was not getting the note. And so to emphasize, they were in my face, right? And then did it loud. You were in my personal space. Your breath was on my I can't tell you how disturbed I was. And I think about right. How many times have children been addressed that way and add on up in their face trying to correct the behavior? I was barely able to hold it together, and I am a licensed professional with years of training with emotional intelligence being my thing, right? I practice my meditation, my mindfulness, every day, right? And so this is part of the but it is a cycle, right? We are caught up, especially in the in the building, whether it's after school, whether it's the, you know, day school, Early Child Child Care, Right? All of these different settings where we step in as the professionals to care for children, um, with the intention of teaching, and we're not taking into account. I mean, think about everything we've been through just in these past few years as adults, and the depth of grief that has not been dealt with properly, just a grief about the politics alone, right? And yet, right? And we expect the children to not feel it. Kids are so they're they're empathic. They pick up the vibes. They pick up the vibes of the room, and but they don't have what they're missing is the language they they don't know how to they don't know what to name it, um. They don't know what's happening in their little bodies, even what's showing up. Oh and, and they can have different experiences. They might be upset about something and still experience joy, right? Like, why are you robbing me of my joy?
Paula McMillan-Perez, LCSW:You're not realizing that both of those things can re exist, realistically exist at the same time,
Debbie Gonzalez, LCSW:right? Like I could find my friend's joke funny and still respect that you called me out on something, right? Because I may be a goldfish on my attention span, and you just yelled at me, and I got that and I felt bad, but my friend made a joke, and that made me laugh at the same time, I'm not laughing at you, right? But when we are so caught up in our own stuff as the adults, it's easy to interpret all of that as a slight that I'm at the center of it, right? So, I mean, the one thing that I have developed over time is an intentional emphasis on having compassion for those adults, because there was a time that I just didn't and I was defined by the sound of my shoes as I made my way towards situations and kids were fine With my arrival, it was the shoes alerted the adults.
Paula McMillan-Perez, LCSW:I can appreciate that on so many different levels, like sometimes, you know, as you're going through your examples, I'm imagining some specific situations and scenarios that I've been in, not just in schools over the course of my time as a school social worker, but even thinking of. Lot in times that I have been in like other like, community based or even corporate settings. And the thing that always strikes me is that, especially when I share this, like in presentations and things about the fact that adolescence doesn't end until 25 blows people's minds, and that the brain isn't done developing until that point. So thinking about what you said in terms of the fact you were expecting these children, 567, year olds to sit quietly with their hands crossed, or to be walking in hallways just looking straight ahead, not talking to their buddy, not saying hello to other adults, like to have to hold all of that in and, let's say, with the sacred argument that they can, which I find to be a miracle. As a child with ADHD, it was not easy for me. But then, if, God forbid, you go against the norms, or, you know, whatever structures are in the classroom, and you receive a consequence that you have to stay inside at recess when you are is literally, probably, depending on how your school is structured and things of that the school day you this the only time that you have to break free. And if you go to a charter school that has a long day, like a seven, 730, to four o'clock
Debbie Gonzalez, LCSW:and then what about those silent lunches? Oh, that's that. Oh, my goodness. I mean, that's just unfair punishment. Like, how am I supposed to stop talking? They don't. I had to ban my bathroom breaks because I knew when I got up from that chair it was going to be a while before I got back, because I was going to say hi to a few people as I walked back and get because I was just stranded. But hey, right? And social connection is important, yes, and so, you know, the we end up vilifying behaviors in children, again, unwittingly, because we're trying to create some some semblance of control, and we have our goals of what we're trying to do. But I think that part of what's happened is that there's been such a major shift in learning, in testing, unfortunately, right? So it's a real driving force. Don't get me started with how the test practice. And what I have found is that then I'm doing more work with social workers on how to help children navigate through anxiety and panic attacks at early age because of the pressures, right? And so, where are the opportunities for socialization? Where is an opportunity for some of the wiggle room, right? Like, I think one of the things that I had that I enjoyed most because I was in a high pressure scenario, and it fits with my personality, and but I had the chance to go in, and I was doing read alouds to the kids, right? They had volunteers, and so I would go in, and so if you can imagine, right, you have, you know, senior person coming into your classroom, the adults were a mess, right? I'm trying to get and I'm like, Oh, Miss Debbie, the squiggles are good. I squiggle I'm like, squiggles, I'm fine. Go away. Adults. Go away. The there's this semblance of, you know, if we're creating, like, if we're doing something that is fun, then how can we allow them to have the kids to have fun with it? Right? What are the things and so, yeah, it's it. I think it's what I worry about, is the fact that these were challenges that were well versed long before the pandemic have been exacerbated as a result of it, and oh my goodness, the other day I saw there's some new study that has come out from a university in Canada stating that, you Know, the children are much more uncivilized now, right?
Paula McMillan-Perez, LCSW:Yeah, I have been hearing the term feral being utilized, and it's, it's, it's basically two terms on the same coin. And while there are some individuals that that may be using it from the form of, like a negative like a superiorly negative connotation. I'd like to think of the fact that it's not or maybe I could also be giving people too much credit, which I haven't been known to do, but as also coming from the fact that the differences that people are observing have been just so stark that it's going back to just raw, just wildness, but it is not, but it's not at the fault, there you go. Yeah, it is not at the fault of the environment, so to speak. But the impact, the long term impact, which we're going to be seeing for the next 10 or so, we're probably even longer years, because, like you said, the pandemic exacerbated what was already there. Yes, so we're not if we didn't have a firm grasp on what was already there for a variety of different reasons, then these are things that we're going to see. Like, for example, I've seen a shift, and I work mostly with in private practice. I work mostly with adolescents, ADHD and anxiety. And one of the themes that comes up not just with girls, even though it's been coming up with boys and, you know, individuals who identify non binary, trans and things of that nature is just the look this person's looking at me. And we know that those looks could mean any number of things, but so many times, one of the things that I'm hearing from youth is that my mind was going in so many different directions that by the time I caught the glance of the other person, they had to be thinking something negative. They had to be wanting to come for me. They had to have been talking about me, that they looked at me that way, and not knowing what else they could do with it. And I'm just like and not that I'm floored by it, but it just makes me so sad that you're stuck in this circular thinking, and this is when there are adolescents and they can verbalize what was coming out for them. What if that same thing is happening to someone who's five or six years old in those same settings that you identified earlier,
Debbie Gonzalez, LCSW:Paula, but even the things right so, the some of the things that we're seeing, and we're seeing in, you know, in the city, the with the migrant population and some of the experiences that the babies have experienced, right? You know, when you have a five year old that is now immersed in an English environment that came from through a multitude of languages in the country's traverse to get here, excuse me, the the bodies they saw along the way, right, like the level of trauma that most people cannot even withstand listening to right a story about These little ones have learned now they're in a classroom and they're expected to sit and perform in a particular way, and so when another student might just lean over and touch them, cross their personal space, and the baby is now in A full on tantrum, and people are like, What the what? What happened? What's going on, right? We're such a nice, warm place. Well, have we talked about bounty? What was going on your classroom? These and so there's an extreme, again, not uncommon experiences. Because if you've been in the city for your social work career, you have seen these families before. It's not new. Everybody wants to make it new. It's not new, and it's still as tragic as it always has been, how do we right? So, how do we plan for that? And I think that that's part of the challenge. We've lost sight of the planning for how do we take care of the emotional aspects of what's happening for our kids? You know, the level of loss, the deaths that have happened. And I'll tell you, you know, I've worked in communities where, again, before all of this other stuff happened, illness was a top, top taker of lives, right? And so that's part of where you had grandparents taking care of children, or incarcerations, all of these losses that, again, continue to exist, right? The like, only in poverty do you go for a little knee surgery and you die, and then we're left with navigating the family right, like he's I always would say to people, there's not a story I tell that is made up. These are right, and so other I don't need to make up anything to be dramatic, because I've seen it. I've seen so much, and this is part of the compounding of the experiences, right, that gets transmitted through our looks. The I remember there was a little third grader at the time. Oh my goodness. And I love the babies, because, you know, they'll tell you stuff. And before we had figured out his diagnosis, right before we knew the real that was happening in his life, we. You were experiencing something compensation in the building. And we understood that that wasn't the because the whole other to do about when the over calling of ambulances and that sort of thing, right? It's like, just give it a minute. We'll come back. And there was a moment where there was an adult who off on the side, right? Says something like, Oh, they're just doing this for for attention. Girl, you know that weeks later, that little one's in my office,
Paula McMillan-Perez, LCSW:so and so said, I'm sure of it, and as I and I didn't appreciate
Debbie Gonzalez, LCSW:it, because that was not what was going on, right? And so it's like they there's a certain level of understanding, and there isn't, and it's complex. It's not straightforward. And I think the thing for me that that with that concern about it was really bad, it's gotten worse, and we're not getting and we're not the solutions that we're trying to put into place are only going to it's like a bad time out right? Like we're practicing time out. We're doing it wrong, and then we're going to say none of it works. It's like when the the city had announced, of course, now there are all these cuts and what have you, but when they had announced, we're bringing in bringing in all these social workers to the schools, because, you know, it's going to be new social workers, little experience that are going to receive little appropriate supervision,
Paula McMillan-Perez, LCSW:bang, right there, Right That, right there, and especially knowing that it was challenging prior, and if you didn't come in to hit the ground running, and kind of knew how to do this work, many of many feel like they're drowning. So imagine adding all of these other things to it.
Debbie Gonzalez, LCSW:Yeah, yeah. And then they're running around and because, again, part of what happens and you're in the mental health circle, but you can appreciate the fact that not every social worker is going to do therapy, correct, not every child in a school setting is going to be able to get therapy, and certainly not at school, right? And we are not well. We are fabulous, absolutely. You do not have a magic wand that comes in a sprinkle, sprinkle, sprinkles, and then the child goes back to behaving like this. And everything goes, Oh, okay. And so, yes, and so that's part of the other piece that I've seen are the social workers that are drowning and helping to to get how do you empower them to have their the voice to understand what the ethics are and that we are not to do harm, to to to our children, that it is about making decisions, and Even if that is a decision that is against what is being said at your by your employer, how to bring that voice in is important. Because I think one of the things that I would always have a conversation about is do not lend your presence to the inappropriate, right? Because there are times where you are called in to be a part of a meeting. You're not speaking, you're not guiding it, and the conversations that are happening are crossing lines that you know shouldn't be happening. Well then don't sit there, because you have now given validity to that conversation by your presence. Mm, it's Nam, and then now you're supposed to go back and build a relationship with that child that you have just betrayed. And
Paula McMillan-Perez, LCSW:the harm is evident, the and
Debbie Gonzalez, LCSW:that's the part that's hard, because we have lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of social workers. We have lots and lots and lots of mental health professionals. We have lots of professionals that somehow then lose their compassion along the way, and we represent something, right? And so you know this so well. Someone goes in to get therapy, and it's not the right therapist for them, it's not the right fit, and that person walks away going, there's something wrong with me. Mm, hmm, because therapy doesn't work. Therapy doesn't work, right? I'm the I'm not fixable, when, in reality, that therapist maybe their style wasn't for you. Maybe they just didn't get you, whether it's the cultural aspect or not, because I think that that's the another piece that I would say is another unpopular opinion. It's we can from within our own culture. Cause harm to our own people. Yes, sometimes in the again, in the the idea of wanting to lift up, you got to be strong and and it's like, when are we going to allow a collective a collective cry? I uh,
Paula McMillan-Perez, LCSW:who say that one again? A collective sigh even, because, you know, let's
Debbie Gonzalez, LCSW:go with the side might be too deep. And see, this is why people go. They're like, Oh, Debbie, I'm gonna walk away now. Can be like, let's I'm here for you.
Paula McMillan-Perez, LCSW:Mean different things for different people. So like that, and that's why I start with Psy. And I work up to the cry. Like, if you could pull any of my clients and be like, here we go. But no, and you raise a good point, because that for you know, tears for many people mean weakness, and we know that it's so much, there's so much leveling to that. So it's like, okay, let's dial it back. But yeah, yes, we faced a collective trauma with the pandemic. However, we, let me not say we, because it's not everybody that feels this way, but there are individuals and communities of color who have said we have been facing collective trauma for generations. So this pandemic, unfortunately, ain't no new condition for us. It's just now everybody else caught up to the weight of what it feels like to be living with this. Yeah, and then for some, it's now compounded, so Well, that's
Debbie Gonzalez, LCSW:the thing, I think, that for our communities, right? It's compounded, and our communities, were many in our communities, because, again, because of the and these are, this is part of what happened when a conversation with a social worker right our populations, the disparities that we see are often with black and brown People and the weight of of the lack of right has been there, yes, for a very long time, and yet many were in the the roles that were required during that time, and so did not have the luxury. I mean, I always look at that for myself, even right? My family's still in the city. They're still, you know what that experience was, living in public housing, right, the density of those buildings, and I live out in the suburbs now, it's a it was a completely different experience. I can go out into the yard, I could walk my dog and not be concerned about running into people, right, the year in the city, and you gotta get into a an elevator, right? It was a there was a different tension. And I think that the other part that is hard now, as we've you know, we're bouncing back, is that the communities that were did not have the feel for this, continue to have the resources to be able to bounce back faster than our communities.
Paula McMillan-Perez, LCSW:Yeah, I can't dispute anything you're saying, right?
Debbie Gonzalez, LCSW:And so the and right? And so it's, how do you deal with the fact that this is a long term impact. It will take a long term solution. It will not happen as fast as as we want. And then what happens? Right the kids who lost those fundamental opportunities for socialization. And so where do they catch up to it? Where? Because they're just getting older, and our expectations change of them as they get older, right? And heck, if you're, if you're big for your age, forget it. Yeah, this, you know, like the, oh, have you read the book big by Vashti Harrison? I have not. Oh, my God, get it because, but it is that concept of, right? The there's so many things in there, the beauty of it, but, yeah, everything, for me, becomes a, you know, as it's a children's book that I've got a recommendation for.
Paula McMillan-Perez, LCSW:I'm here for children's books. So thank you. But like thinking about what you're saying, and this is kind of like, you know, me moving into like that next step. Because, yes, there can be a ton of solutions that we brainstorm, and yes, it's not an overnight solution. These are things that are going to take work. They took time to undo, so they're going to take time to do. But what are some of these things, especially within the scope that you know we were discussing, you know, you know, these, the these shared pedagogy, especially around what's going on in schools and communities. What are some things that we could possibly look into? Uh, that we could possibly try to institute, that we could possibly talk about, that could help address this, or hopefully reduce it even, even in pockets, because we have to start somewhere.
Debbie Gonzalez, LCSW:Oh yeah. I mean, that has been, that has been the emphasis of the workshops that I've been focusing on, and when I come go out to doing them, and the I developed one specifically on that idea of children beyond their crisis, right? That's the title of it. That's kind of and I tailor it to the group that I'm in front of. And it really is getting to that basic premise of children are human. They have a host of experiences and feelings, and they do not yet have the brain capacity to think of it in the way that adults do, right? And I think that you know that somewhere along the lines that was lost. I mean, I am from a generation where it was children are to be seen and not heard, right, right? I mean, that was a common phrase that would get tossed around. And it's kind of like at some magic age, oh, the child is like a thinking person and contributing, right? And so there's and I think society, again, it may really be I'm only exposed to what my communities are. I don't have the same experience. I think when I come across more families that have had more of an affluent experience the I'm shocked by how precocious children are you speaking to an aunt that way? Oh, right. So you know, talk about the internalized issues
Paula McMillan-Perez, LCSW:I empathize because I identify
Debbie Gonzalez, LCSW:you. Just said, what? Oh, my,
Paula McMillan-Perez, LCSW:yeah. And you knowing what would have happened to you had you said those words when you were coming up,
Debbie Gonzalez, LCSW:all I got was a look. I knew better. You know, Mommy didn't have to go past the look. Yeah,
Paula McMillan-Perez, LCSW:you didn't want what came next. No, no,
Debbie Gonzalez, LCSW:I never got that. That was those older siblings. Got that the, you know, that again, this, I was the youngest. Sorry, the youngest. I didn't have that, um, that, that always cracks me up. People go, are you the youngest? Yes, uh, but yeah, right there. Is So that idea, all of that is, it's just interesting and challenging. And so how do we I think it's really just taking it back to something as simple as that, and having compassion for it, because I think again, we are dealing with overwhelmed and frustrated people and the ones who keep showing up, there is somewhere deep inside of them that is inspiring them to still want to do good. Because why else would you put yourself through that experience? An academic year is not an easy year.
Paula McMillan-Perez, LCSW:No, it is not, absolutely not for anyone involved. No,
Debbie Gonzalez, LCSW:no, no. I mean, it's intense. I mean, you get in there and it's, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, right. Um, and so why would you put yourself through that, if there wasn't some deep reason that inspired you, right? And so how do we and I think that that's the perspective of, how do we do it. And the other challenge Paula, is that there is the concept of, you know, who's doing professional development, who's bringing what in? Are you listening to your people? Right? Because then you bring in somebody, listen. I'll give you an example, just to really underscore very expensive training that was being paid for, and we get a last minute email that says, hey, training is going to be at this time tomorrow. You must be there. What does that require? Going through the schedule, canceling, rescheduling, moving things around. In order to come into this meeting, you want to guess what the topic was, I'm
Paula McMillan-Perez, LCSW:afraid to ask
Unknown:time management stop. So,
Debbie Gonzalez, LCSW:and it's my favorite anecdotal, because when I could not listen to a word that the presenter had to say, because it didn't matter what strategy Pray tell they had, I was judging it fiercely, because I had just. And it wasn't just me, right? It was the whole group of people had just spent time juggling, at the last minute, a schedule to make themselves available. And I hear that from often, from people around I'm being brought in for training that's supposed to help me, but it's not the kind of training that I want. And especially when you're talking about compassion, and you're in an environment that doesn't feel compassionate,
Paula McMillan-Perez, LCSW:yeah, and that that's a regular occurrence, because many times, especially, you know, in these settings that we work in, if you ask people what professional development would be helpful and what they need, they'll tell you. But the individuals who are booking or doing their research on professional development, they are motivated heavily by budget, so that's one of them, and not necessarily by need. That's one of the things that I've, you know, come up with, which is, why everywhere I go, I do a needs assessment. So when people talk about oh, but we don't know, oh, but I do, and you can only imagine where that has gotten me, but I think it's important, because people already don't feel like they have voice, and then that only exacerbates the compassion fatigue that they're feeling when you're working in these helping professions, and, you know, in these education roles, where a lot is being taken out of you, and that also takes away from that awareness we were talking about in The beginning that you can't give it until you don't have it with youth, yes, absolutely
Debbie Gonzalez, LCSW:you can't. You can't give it to the kids if you don't have it. And there's only so much self care that you can do, right? And I think that there was, you know, someone had posed an example yesterday, and it was really so powerful, because it's like, Look at the look at the environment, and is there room for you to have a real conversation there about what's going on? And if there isn't, then that's information, right? But there's also the reality of because what I have found is that the toxic nature is across the field, not specific to just a one place kind of thing. It's across the field and social work. It's across the field in education, it's across the field of child welfare. And so the that's where its own complexity is. So I think it's not an easy solution, but I think that the the more that we can have people, right? So, you know, with the experiences, and that's part of the right because, you know, our whole connection through meeting, through this whole Latin, next Latin, a in social work, you know, authors and the narrative, the storytelling, there is something special and unique of those stories, of that community, and How then are we connecting those lived experiences to the voices that are coming to provide support? Because at times we're picking a topic and then we're looking for like, you know, fanciness to come on in and they don't have the lived experience.
Paula McMillan-Perez, LCSW:That's a big piece of it. Like when you were mentioning about that training on time management, one of the first things that I was thinking of was the trainer that was coming in. Are these the same time management strategies that they use? One, two, have they worked in the scope and in the space that you have to understand what the demands and the environment looks like to be able to craft realistic time management strategies or system strategies or workflow strategies, because that's the thing. If I'm going to give a presentation on something and I haven't done it in my professional like landscape, I'm not doing it because y'all not coming for me talking about, what is she even talking about? Because that's that we can't connect. And that speaks also to what you were saying about the storytelling and the community piece. This is just a person that's coming in because they're being paid. They could be telling me anything, but if I can't walk away and utilize something from this professional development that's going to help me in my day to day, I don't want to go. I don't want to pay for it. Like, even if there's ces attached, like, my time is so valuable that it is not worth the investment, because there is no return. And
Debbie Gonzalez, LCSW:that right, there is, I think again, how many times has the investment of time, energy, mental space, been dismissed because, well, I've paid for it for you, right? And so there just becomes the hostelly, right? Like, I mean, unless I grew up in public housing, anytime housing says they're going to do anything, nobody who lives there trust what they're saying, yeah. So, so you don't necessarily want a good message coming from them, because nobody trusts it. And so it becomes. Like, where is the credibility built in to what we're trying to bring in? And it has to play it has to play out. It has to play out in experience. Words are not enough. It has to be in the experience. It's yeah, and I think that what gets lost is how observant children are. They're watching all of the behaviors as there are families, as they're coming in and out, because we become an invisible population, right? And so nobody's talking to me unless my child's in trouble and they want to now talk to me, right? So that's kind of the whole other scenario, but they're watching, and so they're watching how you're showing up if you now then want to present yourself to me as some caring professional, but I've seen how you talk about someone else. I've seen how you've twisted your face. I I've seen how you grabbed on somebody. I have a judgment of you before I come into the space so you could dress up all you want when you're now behind your desk. I've seen you, and so that's part of where, right? Like, you know when I was joking with you before about what's what I'm going to say, the one thing I'm always most proud of is that you ask anybody who's ever worked with me, the message is consistent in terms of how I showed up, what I said, whether you liked working with me or not. And I always recognize, like, when someone says to me, oh, but Debbie, you're so fabulous. I'm like, I appreciate that, and that's good. That with you. You felt that, but I recognized that. That didn't fit for everybody, right? And that's okay. But how are you consistent? How are you consistent? And I think that this is, you know, like that idea of, especially for our young social workers, coming out and making that decision, oh, how do you fortify yourself, because showing up and doing the right thing, because it's the right thing to do, regardless of what's going on around you, is not easy, and you need to have that community in order to sustain you to be able to do that, because to show up and to do the right thing every day in an environment where it's not, you know, it's not always the case.
Paula McMillan-Perez, LCSW:Absolutely, it's like you're, you're digging deep into my brain, because I can identify with so much of what you have shared today. So with that being said, as we begin to wind down, I'm wondering if there is anything on your mind or in your heart that you would like to share with the community before we wrap up.
Debbie Gonzalez, LCSW:Well, I think what I really want to be able to put out into the space. So if you are one of those individuals who got into the business for a lot of love, to want to give back and to help, and have gotten off track, forgive yourself. Forgive yourself. Give yourself compassion, and get back to connecting to your why, and surround yourself with the community that can help you to remember who you are and what you're trying to do. Don't let the environment that you're in take you off course.
Paula McMillan-Perez, LCSW:Oh, well, I can't go after that, so we're gonna leave it right there. Thank you. Bye.
