Relationship Growth Strategies between Space and Defence in the IAQG.

Our guests André Lacroix and Siegfried Brauner joined our podcast to share some insight into the IAQG Space Forum and Defence Team and the importance of having these relationship teams.

You will hear more about the types of trade and government organizations that each work with while learning about some successes as they work with various IAQG writing teams. 

We touch on ICOP and the increasing use of this process by defense agencies as well as discuss the 9018 standard and the high degree of interest and support from NASA.

Space and defense internally collaborate on many topics including PSCI and AIMM, the 9100 revision and so much more. 

This podcast is packed with information about how these two teams are collaborating and working together to make sure they have their pulse on what’s needed in both space and defence now and in the future.

More about our guests:

Siegfried Brauner is with Airbus Helicopters where he's the head of approval and certification. Additionally, Brauner is the IAQG lead for the defence team.

 
André  Lacroix is in charge of quality performance norms and standards for ArianeGroup. He is also the oversight manager for the EAQG oversight team and the lead for the space forum. 

The IAQG is the International Aerospace Quality Group and sets the standard for quality within the worldwide supply chain within the aviation, space, and defense industry. IAQG currently maintains 26 active standards that establish common/shared tools and methods for quality improvement. To learn more, visit https://iaqg.org.  

Transcript

The Quality Horizon – Relationship Growth Strategies 

Susan Matson: [00:00:00] Greetings, everyone, and welcome. I'm your host, Susan Matson, and with me today are Siegfried Brauner and Andre Lacroix. Siegfried is with Airbus Helicopters, where he is the head of approval and certification. Additionally, Siegfried is the IAQG lead for the defense team. Andre is in charge of quality performance norms and standards for Aaron Group.

Susan Matson: Also, he's the oversight manager for the EAQG oversight team. and is the lead for the Space Forum. Welcome to the show, both of you. 

Siegfried: Thank you. Welcome. 

Susan Matson: Thank you. So today, one of the things that I really would like to focus on is the relationship and external requirements groups that both of you are on. Defense for you, Siegfried, and Space Forum for you, Andre. Siegfried, let's lead it off. The first question that I have, and I think that our listeners are interested in, is why do we even have these relationship teams, specifically what being centered around space and defense? 

Siegfried: [00:01:00] The main importance is due to the fact that space and defense has dedicated stakeholders for the IAQG and they are of importance because space and defense is a big part where we are focused on. We are not only focused on commercial. We are also focused on defense in space. And that's the main reason. 

Susan Matson: Thank you. Thank you. So Andre. What kind of groups trade organizations, government organizations are part of this so that you're interacting with? 

Andre: Yes the Space Forum is in particular working with national and regional space agencies, such as NASA in the America sector, JAXA in Japan, KARI South Korea, ISRO India, and so on in the America sector.

Andre: In the Asia Pacific sector and ESA, the European Space Agency, CNES, the French Space Agency, DLR, German Space Agency, UK Space Agency, [00:02:00]  and so on in the European sector. We are also in close relationships. With the space industry, trade associations such as AIAA in the America sector Euro space or GFAS in France, BDLI in Germany and so on, in the European sector and in the Asia Pacific sector with SGAC and Japan, ISPA.

Andre: India, KIA for South Korea, and so on. And together with the defense team, we are also involved in the exchanges with defense agencies and so on. But Siegfried can give you more information on that. 

Susan Matson: Ah, Siegfried. So there's more organizations. 

Siegfried: Yes. For example, DCMA in the American sector, the Defense Contract Management Agency in America, in Europe, the main stakeholder is NATO, NATO working group two. They are publishing the aircraft standards, which are relevant, [00:03:00] and they put them in our contracts. So we have to fulfill these requirements. That the main stakeholders. 

Susan Matson: That's a lot of groups and it sounds like you cover the whole world. So in addition to talking with the stakeholders that you're also doing a lot of information internally and working with the writing teams why would it be good for team members specifically in defense and space to be part of those writing teams?

Siegfried: Reason is mainly coming not only internally, but also externally from our stakeholders. Let's take the example of the IASA. IASA is requesting that the auditors, understand the need of the aeronautic business. Also DCMA or NATO, they, when they want to rely on our products and [00:04:00]  standards they want to be sure that what is written in the standard Also is covered by their needs, and that's the point why we are engaged to bring our message, our needs in the standards.

Susan Matson: And have you seen success by working with not only the relationships group, bringing that to the writing teams and working together. 

Siegfried: Yes, when you take for the example the 9104 the we have a representative there and this representative could bring the specific needs for defense and space, meaning the IAQG standard has been adopted, that the qualification of the auditors also covers space and defense. And that is recognized by our stakeholders. 

Susan Matson: So it really does help bring it and define it even more closely and aligns. 

Siegfried: Yes 

Susan Matson: So have you seen an increase in defense agencies using ICOP using, [00:05:00] working together and aligning 

Siegfried: Definitely. Yes, definitely. Yes. The initiative started some years ago, mainly in the American sector. They did a really great job in America with DCMA and other agencies and contract by contract it has been increased. Now when we go in NATO, NATO nations also starting relying on what has been done in the American sector. They even opened today their quality policy, recognizing accreditation, certification, and use of OASIS.

Susan Matson: So it really is, it's coming full circle and becoming more and more involved. So, it sounds like it's a great start and a great leap, but you're doing more. So what are some of the things that you're focusing on for this year and to come. 

Siegfried: For 2023, our focus is first, what we are doing today, communication. [00:06:00] We do good things and we need to talk about it. And that is why I'm very happy to sit here and to have this podcast. We need to communicate to the outside world what are we doing. We have great successes and they must be known by everybody.

Siegfried: Second is for sure, we will continue to promote ICAP and OASIS with within NATO, within all our stakeholder memberships, then we will support the Gardner study, which has been done some years ago and where IAQG is working on. And for sure we had a workshop beginning of the year. We put top five priorities where we want to focus on in the next two, three years and here we are supporting and starting to work with a defined action plan. 

Susan Matson: I love it. So, just for our listeners, you mentioned the Gartner study. What is that? 

Siegfried: The Gardner study is what are the main eight trends [00:07:00]  in the upcoming two, three years where quality will be impacted. 

Susan Matson: Thank you. I appreciate that. Moving on, Andre some of the other things that we've been doing in terms of working together with writing teams, specifically in with space, you've been doing a lot of work in the 9118 writing team with support with NASA. Can you talk a little more about that?

Andre: Yes AS1918 is a standard that has been published in the United States outside of IAQG. However, with involvement of members of the America's AAQG, space and Defense team and the aim of the 1918 standard is to let quality management system related major nonconformities that are identified by key authorities such as, for example, NASA or DCMA to be managed and monitored by the third party certification bodies that are taking care about the [00:08:00] surveillance of the 9100 certification of the supplier affected by the non conformity. 

Andre: And so there is currently a return of a feedback, let's say a return of experience under work at the America sector. And based on this return of experience we will now very check with the two other sectors in Europe and in Asia Pacific.

Andre: We are to analyze the pros and the cons of this standard to see if or an evolution of it as an IA91xx IAQG standard could be recommended or not to become applicable in the two other sectors. And with this recommendation maybe we can progress and take advantage of it in these other sectors.

Andre: We have already received some some feedback from for example, military organization in Europe that are [00:09:00] interested by this by this project that is that has started in the United States. 

Susan Matson: So it sounds like collaboration really is at the heart of what you're trying to do. Yes. Bringing everyone together. What are some other collaborations, recent collaborations that you've seen success in? 

Andre: Yeah. So in the America sector besides AS1918 say we developed, the NAS413 standard. It's related to virtual inspection, by using remote technologies or with together with also with NASA and DCMA and some other actors, I think.

Andre: And also the AS90 30 is currently under discussion. It's a new standard for addressing quality management system requirements for those organizations that do not have design authority in their portfolio, for example, inspection and test. And this could replace a standard that has been also [00:10:00] updated with support of IQG, the AS 9003, I think it was updated in 2021.

Andre: And addressing inspection test and to, and this new standard 9030 bill replace the old as 9003. So this is for the American sector and this as 9030 could become eventually then later and IAQG could stand out. So something similar, like the 1918 concerning sorry, no concern is the Asia Pacific sector.

Andre: There are a close relationship with the IAQG 9100 team and together with international let's space systems project and quality management standards that are managed at the ISO level, the international ISO level in the technical committee 20, this is aerospace and the subcommittee 14, this is space systems.

Andre: And so they make, [00:11:00] there's a link and so the Japan they developed together with the space agency the standard JMR013. That is in fact, based on the IACG 9100 top level standard, plus additional requirements that are specific needs considered by the Japanese space agencies that are important for projects where the Space Agency of Japan is the customer.

Andre: In in addition, there are promotion activities to expand in Asia Pacific sector. For example, there is an annual Asia Pacific Regional Space Agency Forum, where you have space agencies from Australia, India, Indonesia, Japan, Malaysia, Mongolia, Philippines, South Korea, Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam, and so on.

Andre: And here there is a lot of promotion activities to to make the [00:12:00] IAQG world more well known and applied. Concerning the Europe we are involved in in close discussion with the ECSS system. ECSS is a European Corporation for Space Standardization. This is a set of standards that are applicable for any project where one of the European space agencies is a customer.

Andre: And this set of standards, it's it has several branches like engineering, management, quality, sustainability, for example, space debris. And here, what is not so well implemented in it as of today is, are the perimeters of industrialization, production, maintenance. And these are topics that are becoming more and more important with a new space and commercial space that is evolving very very fastly everywhere in the world. And so for concerning these industrialization aspects, we are in contact with the ECSS teams, the [00:13:00] technical authority and the steering board to adopt and adapt industry standards, industry good practices and in particular IQG products.

Andre: So we made some analysis in the in the last three years to be some of the IQG standards like the 9146 foreign object damage. That could be easily one to one it's, or 9136, this is related to problem solving, root cause analysis and problem solving. There's already something existing in the ECSS system, however, this could be additional support to improve the management of non conformities.

Andre: And we made, in particular, a deep analysis of the state of non conformities of the  IQG standard 9145, APQP, what is advanced planning quality management, this is, let's say, how to control the industrialization, the key characteristics, the control plan, and and so on. [00:14:00]  And here we made an analysis of the deliverables of this standard and compared with the deliverables of the ECSS system.

Andre: And we identified that about 80, 85 percent are already in ECSS, however, there's something missing. And so by making an adaptation of this, the 9145 standard, this could improve the ECSS system. So this, so the discussion is still ongoing to to develop this, but as you see here, we are doing a lot of are going to for developing a new branch of standards and guidance for addressing industrialization, production, maintenance, to cover the needs of the new space and the commercial space.

Andre: So for example, just to give some examples, there are space, so satellite, spacecraft constellations, and space traffic management, on orbit servicing, all these subjects are developing, and for this we need global standards that are demanded by these new space organizations. 

Susan Matson: Yes. So commercial space stakeholders [00:15:00] seems like it's a whole new world almost. So how are you reaching out to them? What you just listed, your groups, both of them must be doing so much and interacting. How are you continuing to reach out to these new organizations that you probably haven't been working with?

Andre: There are, um, how to say, maybe first to say that internal IAQG we established some guidance material on space application. So this has been published in the IAQG SCMH, Supply Chain Management Handbook. A specific section, I think it was 7.7. And it has been published last year. We worked in the last years to make material, to explain the peculiarities of space business with a focus first to raise the awareness of the IAQG members, who are most of them [00:16:00] are coming from the aviation world, so to make them aware on peculiarities of space business.

Andre: But also to make aware the auditors of the IQG certification scheme, so that when they certify companies working for space, that they are aware on what is important for space business, and so they do better audits and by this make, bring more added value for space. On the other side, internally, we are also let's say involved in the discussion with the new product, AIMM.

Andre: So the aerospace improvement maturity model. So this is a self assessment tool allowing organizations to prepare themselves for 9100 or to improve their 9100. It's already certified organization, quality management system by over time to to climb the ladder of maturity. And so this is, these are materials that we can [00:17:00] communicate outside to stakeholders.

Andre: And this is very important. So for example, to enhance engagement of active and additional key space stakeholders. For example, FAA is for civil authorities, well known, it's the equivalent of EASA in Europe, FAA for the American sector, to everything related to aviation, this is a key authority.

Andre: However, for new, for space, when you have, for example, a launcher that is going to space, NASA is. But if this launcher is returning to Earth, landing on Earth, then the FAA is the authority. So we have to be in contact with the FAA, and to see together how we can work together and and so we have to interface with FAA.

Andre: On the other side, we have also to communicate with commercial space organizations on the benefits of their expansion of lower tier suppliers. And by this, the OASIS database, this is a database where all the [00:18:00] certified organizations are listed and all these, all the information about their performance I would say.

Andre: And by using this database, this could help these new commercial space organizations to develop the robustness of their supply chain. And or to engage small, medium enterprises, in particular startups, because there are more and more in the space business. And to have, also for having from there, their innovative approach, this could bring added value for IAQG standard application and evolution of the IAQG system itself.

Susan Matson: Thank you. So when we, as we're evolving and as we're bringing more organizations and more suppliers. We're also bringing in lower tier suppliers because they're newer and developing things. So how is it a benefit to all to working with them? How do we benefit that? 

Siegfried: From defense point of view, it's quite important because this newcomers, [00:19:00] they have a complete different view on what is going on lately. When we think about defense organizations, they are established long. They are in the business very long, so they are in a certain role I would say. The newcomers, they are completely open minded. They are asking completely different questions. And that is what is helping us. 

Susan Matson: So they're helping define what is next.

Siegfried: Exactly. 

Susan Matson: Knowing that, having that, being able to collaborate, obviously one of the things that you're both doing and working on is the 9100 and being part of the revision team. But can we talk a little bit about why that's so important to have that knowledge and to be able to be on the team for that revision?

Andre:  I, what I can say for space, the key reason of the space forum is, It's very important that the [00:20:00] space needs, which are different from aeronautics, I would say, sometimes, but not, in fact, not so much, that they are well reflected and incorporated in IAQG products and that the certification scheme provides added value also for space.

Andre: So this is the main reason why we created the Space Forum and we have, in particular, in each of our Space Forum meetings, a specific section called Lessons Learned Good Practice Exchange, in order to discuss topics that are important for space and and or recent return of experience that we can discuss inside the Space Forum.

Andre: And by this, to see what from this discussion can be given feedback to either to IAQG for improving something in the IQG product or to see also what needs to be done to to talk, to communicate with the external world of stakeholders for improving the situation. 

Susan Matson: Thank you. 

Siegfried: In addition to what has been said by [00:21:00] Andre, what is important is when we look on the defense side, defense is mainly covered by national MODs.

Siegfried: And you can imagine if you have a national MOD in France, Spain, America, Japan, Asia, wherever when they read the standard, there could be due to the language barrier, a different understanding. On, on, in addition, what Andre said is what we are doing is we provide a common understanding internally and what is mainly important externally to our stakeholders so that they acknowledge the standard.

Susan Matson: And acknowledgement is key. And that's the one thing that we're striving to do as this world keeps getting smaller, even space gets a little less [00:22:00] expansive. 

Susan Matson: How are we, I feel like this entire conversation has been how you both, your teams have rolled up their sleeves and really tried to stay on top of things and be forward thinkers. But is there a way that you're keeping the pulse on what we really need to be doing next? The what's next that we haven't already discussed?

Andre: When you speak about pulse, so we have twice a year we have a meeting at sector levels as input for the two meetings at international levels. I think in for the, for and then in parallel we have also let's say engagement plans for with each of the stakeholders that is already involved.

Andre: Here we have let's say a more continual progress. We have also a recognition process of IAQG standards. For example the 9163 standard certificate of conformance. So in France, it has been, there was a standard existing, an NFL standard. [00:23:00] And so the update of this NFL standard will be the 9163. So this is not only relevant for defense and space, but it's important to make a living.

Andre: Because at the end, quality, we want to improve the quality of the product. And we have the same needs. Whatever if we are called aviation, defense, space, we have the same needs to improve quality, to improve customer satisfaction, to ensure that the customer is coming back and not the product. These kind of things.

Andre: And we have also, we are also doing our market analysis and update it, for example what are the companies that are certified that are working for space or defense. And and so there is also here an evolution and we try to develop this robustness. And many many lessons learned, return of experience. We try to inject in order to impose as a system. Okay. You want to add something? [00:24:00]

Siegfried: Yes. Two things to be added on what you have said. One point is, or the first point is, make the lessons learned of what happened in the past year. First, with COVID, a lot of changes due to COVID. Second, unfortunately, due to the Ukraine war.

Siegfried: We see what is the need of today, and we have spoken about the newcomers in space. I think the Ukraine war showed us that. What are the needs of our products? For example, do a use of commercial and military. That is one, one of a major topic which we need to cover in the future. Second is the digitalization. I think digitalization is something which will fastly run up. And we as IAQG need to be prepared for it. 

Andre:  Absolutely. And concerning this digitalization this this space and defense took the lead to, to work inside the supply chain management handbook in a specific [00:25:00] working group, addressing in the first step data science and artificial intelligence, what it can bring to be more proactive, preventive quality.

Andre:  And now we extended it in a second step with a working group called Data Management to address the more large scope of digitalization. Because this is the trend everywhere in the world, we go towards digitalization. It's very important that we are inside this. And here the Space and Defense team are taking the lead to progress inside IAQG. 

Susan Matson: I feel like we've covered so much today. We could probably talk for hours about all of this, especially with everything that both of your teams are doing. Thank you so much for joining us and our listeners and sharing a little more about it. As Siegfried, you said earlier, One of the big things is to be able to communicate everything you're doing.

Susan Matson: And I feel like we just tipped the iceberg. There's so much more to talk about. I would love to have you both back, but thank you both. I appreciate it. 

Siegfried: Thank you very much.

Susan Matson: Thank you [00:26:00] And, just wanted to tell, both of you you're here today. We are actually at one of the meetings. Which is wonderful, and I know that there's lots more to come, so we'll get back to you soon.

Susan Matson: This is Susan Matson, and you've been listening to the IAQG Quality Horizon. Until next time, stay safe.