Body Image, Burnout & Belonging: Unlearning the Shame We Carry.

We inherit shame like an unspoken family heirloom — stitched into our bodies, our ambition, our idea of enough. It’s the quiet undertone behind so many brilliant women asking, “Why do I still feel like I’m not enough?”

In this conversation, Jennifer Walter sits down with therapist and facilitator Kyira Wackett to unpack the hidden ways shame shapes our lives — from body image and burnout to perfectionism and belonging. 

Together, they explore how shame isn’t just a feeling — it’s a learned survival strategy. One we can unlearn.

You’ll hear about the difference between “good” and “bad” pain, why setting boundaries feels so hard, and how to start building shame resilience without burning yourself out.

This episode is part psychology, part real talk — a compassionate deep dive into the quiet stories that keep women performing, proving, and people-pleasing.

If you’re tired of hustling for worth, this one’s your permission slip to rest, reflect, and begin again.

🎧 In this episode:

• The psychology of shame and why it runs so deep
• How shame drives burnout, perfectionism, and self-criticism
• The social scripts women inherit about worth and belonging
• Boundaries, self-compassion, and how to build real resilience
• Why healing shame starts with curiosity, not fixing

💬 Connect with Kyira Wackett
👉 adversityrising.com


A highlight from the Scenic Route archive

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Chapters

• 0:00 Naming Shame And Why It Spikes Now
• 1:34 Meet Kira And The Shame Resilience Lens
• 5:31 Core Beliefs And How Shame Takes Hold
• 10:45 Shame As Social Control And Comparison Ladders
• 17:56 Isolation, Motherhood, And Invisible Standards
• 22:08 From Systems To Self: What Changes First
• 29:10 Anti‑Bandaid: Insight Before Action
• 36:40 Boundaries, Responsibility, And Forgiveness
• 43:45 Getting Out Of Insight Loops And Starting
• 50:20 Flexible Grace, Trends, And Needs vs Wants
• 56:40 Values, Discomfort, And Sustainable Change

Transcript

Jennifer Walter: 0:00

Today we're talking about something that sits quietly underneath almost everything we do. Shame. And not just the kind that lives inside us, but the kind we've learned to carry from family, from work, from the stories we were told about what it means to be good. In this conversation, I'm joined by therapist and facilitator Kira Wackett, and together we're unpacking how shame shows up in the small ways, like the sneaky, the sneaky ways, you know, in our bodies, our boundaries, and our burnout. And in just this endless need to prove we're enough. And I'm bringing this one back from the archives, and for a good reason. It's November. We're going full speed ahead towards the end of the year, and that's peak shame season. We got family gatherings, body comments, food kills, the pressure to reinvent yourself for a new year. It's the time when those old stories about warfare and perfection really get loud. So if you need a reminder that you're allowed to rest, to take up space, and to stop performing for love, this episode is that deep exhale. This one's honest and layered and a little uncomfortable in all the right ways. We talk about why shame feels so powerful and how it keeps us small and what it takes to start unlearning the weight we've been carrying. There's a different way to think about mental health. And it starts with slowing down. Sometimes the longest way around is the shortest way home. And that's exactly where we're taking the scenic route. Hi, I'm Jennifer Walter, host of the Scenic Rap Podcast. Think of me as your sociologist, sister in arms, and rebel with many causes. Together, we're blending critical thinking with compassion, mental health with a dash of rebellion, and personal healing with collective change. We're trading perfectionism for possibility and toxic positivity for messy growth. Each week, we're exploring the path to better mental health and social transformation. And yes, by the way, pretty crystals are totally optional. You ready to take the scenic round? Let's walk this path together. Okay, so today on the scenic good podcast, I am so excited. This episode is gonna go deep. It's gonna cut deep, I'm sure. I have Kira joining me today. Kira, how are you?

Kyira Wackett: 2:18

I'm good. I'm so excited to be. I always feel weird saying I'm excited because what we're gonna talk about is not good. It doesn't feel good when you talk about it, but I'm very excited because it's the differentiation between good and bad pain, I feel like, in terms of like it's the necessary pain. So I'm excited.

Jennifer Walter: 2:35

Yes. And I do admit I like whenever like remember, I don't know, years and years ago when the internet was a new thing, there was this website called rotten.com. Yeah. You always kind of like had to look because it was just like, oh, you cannot like turn away. Yes. Um, so I do have us, I do have um something for the underworld as well. Yeah. So but before we go, like, oh, I already see us drifting into today's topic, but before we do that, Kira, like give us an idea and understanding of who you are, like what like the cornerstones, what kind of like how did you start it? How did you get where you're today? Like your pivotal crossroads and the big moments.

Kyira Wackett: 3:19

Yeah. So I I think the sort of leading roles in my life right now, I well, I just bought a house. So I'm a I'm a homeowner as a exciting, like a few weeks ago. Yeah. So that has been the most interesting shame activator in a very long time. But I am a new homeowner, a partner, a mom to a newly three-year-old, and a licensed therapist, as you said. And I'm a I own my own business and you know, peppered into that. I'm also a daughter, I'm a friend, I'm all sorts of things. But really, when I think about all of these aspects of myself right now, I really see myself as being somebody sort of in this journey to shame resilience, which I think to me is sort of replacing the movement of authenticity. They're really kind of one in the same in my brain. It's this notion of you know, I grew up, I experienced a lot of childhood trauma, a lot of performing, a lot of conforming, which I didn't understand was shame until my mid to late 20s. But I did a lot of that. I did a lot of operating from a place of just trying to be something for everybody else to be good enough to be in the room. And now I'm really on this journey of being someone that is living in alignment with my values to create the biggest ripple and impact I can in the world around me in a way that feels good and in alignment with myself. And so rather than being the person I do rotate my daughter's books, I do have different toys that come in and out of the boxes, but it's not because it would look pretty to post it on Instagram and because everybody has made it so that now it's a thing. It's because as somebody who thinks about mental health and development of a kid, it's really important to me that I am helping create opportunity for my daughter to re-experience things. And so it's this sort of shift from the pull so many people can relate to in life of again, we started doing it when we were little, and social media has definitely made it harder to be something to match the performance. It's really now I want to be someone in shame resilience.

Jennifer Walter: 5:33

I love that, and so many things are like resonating so deeply with the situation I'm currently in of like really unraveling a lot of personal shame stories and like a lot of what you said about performing and like conforming, and something that is just like slowly like oh oh actually I kind of like did that as a coping mechanism to deal with a narcissistic. So, like, oh how actually would I like if that's just the performance me, then who is the me? So it's so I I feel you. I'm like, oh yeah, okay, this goes this con steep already, yes. So I so as we know, like as the title already got it, it gives away, we're gonna talk about shame today. And I think it's really important because you come from a psychological background, and I come from a sociological background, and we both deal with shame in different nuances, I feel. So I think it's really crucial to kind of like get everyone on the same page when it comes to what do we mean when we talk when we say shame or shaming.

Kyira Wackett: 6:58

Yeah, yeah. So I kind of going back to the psychological elements, my training in grad school was in cognitive behavioral therapy. And so I'm gonna use the term core beliefs, but for someone that maybe hasn't heard that before, I think more commonly people use the term limiting beliefs. But basically, when we're born, our brain, our body, has to figure out how to make sense of this world and how we fit into it. And so how we see value in who we are, how we create a sense of an identity, how that integrates with the world around us and all these inputs and influences and external sources. For maybe 0.003% of the population, their core belief is I'm worthy, I'm lovable, I'm good enough by being me. I don't have to earn it, I don't have to look a certain way. My body size, my skin color, my grades, the school I went to, my socioeconomic status, none of those things matter. I am worthy of love, connection, and belonging. The rest of us, so you know, 99 point whatever number of zeros, 7% of us got the core belief I'm only worthy and lovable if, or I'm not worthy and lovable unless. And those two things kind of get at the same point. But it's this notion, you know, if many of us could go back to early childhood, elementary school, middle school, we can think about those influences. If you wear a certain clothing item, if you sit at the right lunch table, if you say the right things, you listen to certain music. If we go back to our caregivers getting certain grades, being quiet at the right times, knowing how to, you know, you mentioned a narcissistic parent, knowing exactly how to play into their ego. The ability to match these external expectations or bids or requests is what created in us a sense of self. And shame is basically sort of, I think about it like a sleazy used car salesman that comes in when you're feeling like, oh my gosh, I'm I suck. I'm broken. I have all these things stacked against me. Look at this. I'm only four, and I've already got already a loser, already too dark of skin, too whatever it is. And shame comes in and is like, I got you. Here's the book. I'm gonna give you a signal every single time that something is happening that you there's a threat to connection and belonging. And to when someone's gonna see it. So we both know it, you're garbage, but let me help you pretend like everything is fine. I just finished watching the movie Elvis on HBO Max, and I think about it. The character in there, the snowman who's kind of his manager, would do a lot of this. Sort of the this is how you need to be perceived in the world. And I'm gonna make sure that the real you isn't seen too much. And that's what shame is. Shame is fear. It's a subset of our fear. It is the threat to connection and belonging. And it comes in and it tells you, Oh, you're too close. You better react. And that is either the performing, the becoming what everybody else wants or needs, it's the deflecting, the avoiding, it's the aggressiveness, it's the pushing away. It's all those different responses to a perceived threat to connection and belonging. Because at our core, our belief is that we don't actually deserve to be here because who we are is not good enough when we walked in the room.

Jennifer Walter: 10:27

Yeah. I mean, that explains to some extent why like I feel I once I'm I'm not really core on the Bible. I'm not really like, I don't know like all the things, but I think I once read that shame is was the first emotion mentioned in the Bible, uh, actually really in Genesis. So it kind of makes sense that it runs like so so deep from like really being one of the core, I don't know, one of the core emotions almost. Like and what I think is so absolutely brutal about it, it's not like it's not just like a a private emotion, right? Like when you feel happy, you feel happy. And obviously that radiates, but right, right. It's both. It's personal, public, and social. Like it's it's everything, right? It's it only happens when it can either happen, you can either shame yourself, but it usually comes like it needs that outside component of someone of something, someone telling you, oh, actually, this is not good enough, right?

Kyira Wackett: 11:47

You need to be interpersonally driven.

Jennifer Walter: 11:49

Yeah. Yes, yes. And like, so this is where really interesting when when like when I'm looking at it from like a social like a sociological point and be like, hey, okay, how is shame this deep complex emotion? It's tied to social norms and expectations. Like, how is shame being misused as a tool of social control, like to use to regulate behavior and and force conformity? And we see that so so much on women's bodies, on everything that goes outside a norm, might be trans women, black women, people of color in general, like the whole the whole field, and it's just such a brutal emotion growing up with it, like it fucks you over at 10 times and more. Like it's a form of a severe form of punishment, which is if you're not behaving how society expects you to behave, we're gonna regulate your behavior on an individual level with a form of punishment in a form of shame. So I'm always was really interested on how yeah, how that interlates, like on really like a social like level between social control and like how we can do that. And while we see it like maybe some of you will be like somebody listening, we'd be like, Yeah, okay, get it, like bad stigma, but but it's it's in so many nuances, right? Like it goes from the broad as I've said, like, okay, shaming women's bodies for looking a certain way, right? Like, that's why the diet industry is there, like shaming women into like losing weight, shaming people into losing weight, right? Um, and it never works, shame never works long term, but we'll get to that.

Kyira Wackett: 13:57

Right, right. It does work in the short term, but it does not work in the long term on a systems level or an individual.

Jennifer Walter: 14:04

Yes, yes, exactly. And like how we ugh, and then it goes really down to seemingly benign things of like, oh, I'm looking at Instagram and see this other business owner, yes, and like, oh, she's doing things her way, so I should do the same. Otherwise, I don't know, I might not be in the cool Instagram business owner club. Right. Or I can, I don't know, I feel putting myself into like I don't know, isolation or just kind of like self-inflicted negative self-talk and self-criticism, leading then to kind of like self-incorporated shame.

Kyira Wackett: 14:54

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we've seen this because we connected through the podcast group that we're in. I've seen that with people in there too, where their applications will say that you have to have a minimum of X number of people on your email list, you have to have a minimum of X number of followers on Instagram, and I'm not on Instagram anymore, and I don't do these things. And I would see it even applying to speak at events. And how about this? And how much money have you made? And it's all these things that say, well, you are legitimized based on the number of external validation points that you can prove. And what happens is our sense of self becomes. I had this, I used to joke about it, but it was kind of that I'm joking, but I also feel this way kind of idea, which is I think a lot of how shame comes out. It's the person that's like, Well, I'm gonna make the joke about being fat because I don't want you to feel like you have the one up over me. But with that, yeah, so just gonna put it out first. Exactly. Exactly. But it was that feeling I remember for a long time after having my daughter, I was working out and I'd gotten an Apple Watch. And it was really helpful for me to track some of my recovery when I was working out, like heart rate and some of those things to make sure that I wasn't pushing myself beyond an important sort of limit in recovery. But I started having this thing where it was like, well, now I've moved every single day and I'm tracking this, and I have to get everyone tracked. And there was a day that my watch was dead and I went to go work out, I was all completely ready, and my watch wasn't working, and I was like, well, what's the point of working out now? That right there is shame. That is the saying of if I can't prove to somebody else I worked out, it is less valid, less important, less meaningful that I took that time for something that's supposed to be just for me and not about anything else. And that's the subtlety of shame. It's this the slow micro erosions. I made a post. I'm gonna take it down because I only got five likes on it, and somebody else got a million in their first five minutes making a post or whatever that is. And that's that piece of Sonia Renee Taylor in her book, The Body Is Not an Apology. Oh, I love it. Yes. It talks about ladder systems. I think that is one of the most beautiful ways of understanding shame as a tool of influence because it's the idea of us constantly being attraps and trapped in this notion of upwards and downward comparison. I got to get up the rungs of the ladder to be better, which means somebody has to be below me for me to be good enough. It's the way we tell somebody else, oh, see, you you're a great mom. You're better than other moms I know. Yeah. Well, that means other moms are shit. So we're shaming them so I can feel better. That's the way it happens. And that's the way that we say, okay, I'm okay as long as I can find someone who's doing it worse, or I'm not okay until I get above that person in front of me. Both of those make us dependent on the system outside of us and keep us hooked to the belief that again, our job is to always be climbing the ladder and the success is only if we can get to the top and make sure that everybody else stays on the bottom.

Jennifer Walter: 17:52

Yeah, that's basically how any form of oppression works.

Kyira Wackett: 17:55

Exactly.

Jennifer Walter: 17:56

Yeah. And I mean, when we added to a level of scarcity, right? Like there cannot be everyone at the top.

Kyira Wackett: 18:02

Exactly.

Jennifer Walter: 18:03

Right. So we got it kicked down. And I just thought about when you said something, but like how we use shame, like how shame like we want, we kind of like want to belong. And then there's this thing of shame coming through when we don't and we get punished if we like don't conform. But there's this other, like, really weird thing. Maybe we can talk about this. I just kind of like talk about it, like a fellow. I'm also a mom of a three year and a half year old. And I recently had a friend over, like a really good friend. Like, we have like no no, like, we have almost no boundaries between you. So she could see my house when it's burning down, like it's fine. Yeah. Um, and like and she came in, and like she was like, Oh, I'm so glad you didn't clean up before, like and she she said it way more politely, but that was the change to face, right? Like, and I'm like, Yeah, that is true. Because if I would first had to spend three hours to clean up, I would not have invited her. So that kind of like the other layer of shame, how it can lead to self-isolation, especially maybe amongst moms. I just that just popped into my head.

Kyira Wackett: 19:31

Well, and that notion too of I thought about this after I got I got in a car accident years ago, and I was okay. I mean, it was like very minor whiplash, the other person was okay. I think we both had a little bit of trauma response, obviously. But there was sort of a you get this amount of time to not be okay, and then you have to be okay again. And I think that happens with most roles and changes with moms, momhood, particularly, and it doesn't matter how you come to be a mom, but there's this sort of idea of you get to have a hard time for for this pocket, yeah, and then you need to have your shit together, and your house should be clean and you should be thriving and everything else, and you should love to make all the toddler snacks, and you should be rotating. In star form and hard shapes and like exactly, and all the little cookie cutter pieces, and your kids should eat it all because they love it, because you've got to not be able to do it. Mine is in a beige phase.

unknown: 20:30

Yeah.

Kyira Wackett: 20:32

I mean, uh, there are definitely days where I am in a beige-only phase, so I get that 100%. But it's it's that piece. And so it's it isn't even necessarily that someone else has to say something, but it's the subtle interpretation. Somebody else might have never outwardly made a comment to you about again how you manage your household, your body's size, what you're eating. They might not have ever said something to reinforce what you believe to be true in the world around you, yeah, but it still exists in the world around you. And so it's that piece that's really tricky. And that's again, it goes back to systems and intergenerational systems of oppression that are founded on shame.

Jennifer Walter: 21:13

Yeah.

Kyira Wackett: 21:13

And the expectations and norms that come from it. And so for us, it's and yeah, we're gonna talk about what do we do with it, how do we break out of it, but that's when we talk about shame resilience. You're never gonna be without it because radical acceptance acceptance, we're in systems of oppression that are founded on shame. So it's how do we create response plans and resilience around it, yeah, recognizing that that's part of how we're gonna function for the rest of our lives.

Jennifer Walter: 21:40

Yeah. And how we can try to eliminate shame by also like cutting out people who are responsible for shaming us. Right. Uh, and that usually are people very dear and close to us. Right. Otherwise, we wouldn't probably care much if some stranger on the internet shames us. It would be like, yeah, well, whatever. And yeah, it's it's so interesting, right? Like sometimes what you what you said, right? Sometimes what you say and what you don't say, and I especially remember there was a lot of shaming growing up um around body size. And like it would be things like like the more like straightforward ones, like, oh, you want to finish that? Okay, that was that was pretty straightforward. And then like things like I don't know, I would wear a skirt instead of like trousers for whatever. And my grandma would be like, oh, that's like that skirt looks much better on you. Like, oh, okay, thanks. Message received, you know, I mean, and it's not like it's also the like the tone that makes the music, but yeah, and then like yeah, like all these random things, or like the the at the worst, we're always kind of like the I don't know, the I don't want to call them fake compliments because with some of the people who said that to me, I do kind of believe they meant it genuinely. Yeah, the like, oh you're so brave for like wearing a swimsuit, and I'm like, what? Like, no, like, no, that's not bravery, that's you being a dick. Yeah, right. Like, but all these little nuances of like, yeah. So that goes to say, do not ever comment on anybody's body, it's none of your business.

Kyira Wackett: 23:54

I mean, I think that like ultimately that's the piece of so much of combating this on a systems level is like just stop talking about stuff that doesn't actually pertain to you or matter.

Jennifer Walter: 24:04

Yes.

Kyira Wackett: 24:04

But then it's also, and this is the really hard part. So if you think about this from a political standpoint, from any other standpoint, part of combating the shame is also to not exist in opposition or binaries with the people that you see as perpetuating the shame. Because the the issue at its core, when somebody is making that comment, when somebody is maybe outwardly, if we look at racism as an example and they're sort of aggressively racist, it's not even necessarily about the person they're saying it about. It's that they need this to stay true because in their head, this is the only way to have a place in the world. Yeah. It's you are the threat to their sense of self. It's not you are obviously, it's not okay to say those things, do those things, those actions, hurting somebody, harming someone is never okay or valid. But it's the notion that it is self-protection at its deepest root. It is a dog backed into a corner that knows no other way. Yeah. And that is also a person that is a product of scarcity and shame-based systems, too. And so the hard part is, and this is why I think we're talking about, you know, hundreds of years of iterations of moving through this before we see any meaningful change, is I wouldn't be able to do that right now. Sit in a room with people that I know are outwardly hurting other people with their reflections of shame and the systems they they exist in and show them unconditional love and kindness. I couldn't do it. I could not do that right now as much as I want to say that I could, and I'm an evolved and open person. And so I think there's that piece too, of knowing that part of combating the shame is finding forgiveness and releasing the idea that somebody else is now lower on the ladder because they've been worse. They've fucked up more in the shame circuit. And that's that's tricky. It's and that's where I think it gets going back into sort of the sociological the systems, the all that piece where it's hard to see what the outcome is. How do we resolve it in the short term?

Jennifer Walter: 26:06

Yeah. Oh, I mean, short term is probably always individual first. Uh I think like actions and then we build the structures. Because I think in that case, we cannot do structures and then for like and then actions, like exactly like structure follows action. But so like oh yeah, I mean, it's at the core of that, right? Is believing wholeheartedly that everyone at all times is kind of like doing the best they can.

Kyira Wackett: 26:39

Exactly.

Jennifer Walter: 26:41

And that's that's that's a mind fuck. Like I mean, we could name a gazillion of instances where we're like, but no, no. Right. And I I oh I had that conversation with a coach um two or three years ago. And the hardest part actually about this, that was like one of the most my like oh moments was okay, so if I can accept that everyone is doing their best at any given time, that includes me.

Kyira Wackett: 27:19

And not just you now, but you from your past and all the judgments you are holding against yourself.

Jennifer Walter: 27:24

Oh, yeah. I love to shit on past gen or you. I should have been smarter, I should have known. I believe.

Kyira Wackett: 27:33

Yeah, I should have left sooner.

Jennifer Walter: 27:34

I should have said this, I should have should have stood up for myself, should have like uphold my boundary, should have like so now I mean I feel like we could talk about shame as a form of an oppression and assistance when another podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And we'll gotta come back to circle back to it again and again, I'm sure. But how so now that we kind of like know what shame is on both levels, and we know it creates so much hurt, yeah, and it is a tool of oppression and power and control and behavior on a both individual level and on a societal level, micro and macro. Like how do that goes back to your question? Okay, we don't know, we cannot even begin to to paint a picture of how it could look differently because we have been in this system for so long, it's all we know, but still we know it sucks, we know it's like it's not working, patriarchy is not working, like right, capitalism is not working, everything is just kind of like collapsing. So, how do we start dismantling it? How do we start to get better? How do we start to get more resilient? Where do we start, Kira? Where do we start?

Kyira Wackett: 29:10

I love this, and I whenever I think about sort of change from an individual level a systems level, I really think it breaks down into insight and action. And what you see, and particularly, you know, there's been a I'm only gonna use sort of an example of racism in the US because it's been something I think at the forefront for many years, but more so in recent years. And what happens is when we point out a problem, and again, we could say that on the system level, but let's just talk about it on the individual level. Our our programming is to go to action, to fix it, to make it better, to make it go away, to this is now it's uncomfortable. I don't like it, I don't want to be this. So how do I fix it immediately?

Speaker 1: 29:57

Yeah.

Kyira Wackett: 29:58

I go into two boat. Exactly. Exactly. Instead of saying I can't do anything until I understand the roots of the system in myself. And so with shame, it works the same way. Again, we're saying all these outward systems of oppression really root to this internal system of oppression, i.e., shame. So for us, I think it really is a big thing that I focus on in my work is what I call the anti-bandaid movement, which is the idea of, you know, if we go back to core beliefs and this idea of kind of your innermost sense of self, the tension that starts to get created in our body the more that we are trying to live up to all these expectations and can't, and that will sort of erupt as volcanoes. And I don't really understand geology, but sort of how that would come to be. And so that shows up in addiction, in body shame, in eating disorders, in narcissism, codependence. It shows up in all these ways. Well, the band-aid is just, you know, fixing the outward manifestation. The band-aid is, you know, I specialize in eating disorders. The band-aid is let's get you eating, let's stop you engaging in these behaviors. Let's focus on the eating disorder and the relationship with food instead of saying what eroded your sense of self to begin with, because it isn't the behaviors you're doing right now. This is the coping mechanism for the underlying shame. And so I think for many of us, it's about learning to be comfortable in insight building and where we're going to get pulled to take action. That is shame-based thinking right there. And so it's stopping first to say, you have this radical acceptance. If you are a human, unless you were born without the capacity to feel any emotion, in which case you wouldn't be listening to this podcast. You would have, even if you came to it by accident, you would have ended it a long time ago. So if you're still here, you have the capacity to feel emotion, which means you feel shame. Accept that. And then start to look at it through a lens of curiosity to say, gosh, okay, where did my shame story come to be? What's it rooted to? And not as a means of placing fault on your parents, on your caregivers, on your ex-partner and the abuse, but to just say, how did my brain try to come up with a rule book for how to be okay in the world? And what's it doing for me? How is it serving me now? And so I think it really is about sitting in curiosity and exploration for that past and that present self and starting to think about how is this affecting my ability to exist in the life that I'm in now? Simultaneously, I think it's opening the door to say, is this who I want to be and how I want to show up in the world? And what would it look like to give myself permission to explore something different, to think about something different, to be something different? And then only then can we start to look at what meaningful and sustainable action would be. So then it's how do I define a goal to, you know, let's say, for example, it's okay, well, I need to set better boundaries at work. And that, you know, initially you're like, there's the shame, and I don't, I erode all my boundaries. I'm constantly the human giver and I answer every email, I'm constantly available. I need to set better boundaries. Well, if you just set the boundary, I mean, I can tell you right now, here's five ways to set a boundary, but you're gonna erode it immediately because your shame's gonna show up. So if instead you say, This is why setting boundaries is hard for me at work, it's not just my boss, it's not just my coworker, it is the depth of rejection I feel at my core.

Jennifer Walter: 33:33

What do I And with dad, you're to some extent, and that's a hard pill to swallow for a lot of 100% your your own doing.

Kyira Wackett: 33:42

Yes, yes, and it's taking responsibility for that. And again, not to make you the villain. The reality is no one's more past villains and goods. Exactly. Exactly. It's more of what's in my control? Where do I have power? And part of that power is then showing past you, not using insight as a weapon, but showing past you love and compassion to say that Jen, that kira was doing the best that she could. This kira has different insight and awareness to understand that not setting this boundary has XYZ ripple effect. Setting this boundary is going to cause acute distress on a level that I am super uncomfortable with. So now, and again, I'm giving people this roadmap for years of work instead of here's what you do by tomorrow. But again, we're not looking at band-aids here, we're looking at long-term solutions. Now we go, where am I missing or lacking in the skills internally and the supports externally to put that into practice and to deal with distressing or to maintain exactly. How do we learn how to deal with the distress when you do disappoint someone? Because you will, because the instant you start to set a boundary, the instant you make actions that aren't driven by shame, other people are going to lose benefit because you not setting boundaries benefits them. So of course there's going to be disappointment. That doesn't mean you've messed up. It means there's now a misalignment in wants and priorities. How do you deal with that distress? Well, you establish a new foundation for existing in the world. Once you've done all of that, then I think we can jump to action. Now we can set the boundary. Now we have an understanding of why it's going to be hard, what we do with it, how we put it into practice, who we talk to about it. Now we can practice it with the caveat of saying, you're still gonna fuck it up. I do this for a living, I practice this every day. You're gonna be wrong all the time.

Jennifer Walter: 35:34

This is where our humanity comes in and it has to come in, right? Like, so okay, let's see. If first, if I kind of like summarize it a bit, okay. So first we can like have some some sort of mindfulness that something is off, something is not right. I'm what's the problem? Yeah, yeah, exactly. What's the problem? I'm realizing that something is like I keep repeating patterns, I keep repeating whatever. Yep. I need to have some then. I need to have some some the best way to move forward then is to kind of like have curiosity and just have no good or bad, just no judgment, just curiosity. Why did I do the things I did? Next, you kind of have have to have self-compassion to know you did the best you have you have like you did at any given time, even if that is like really hard. And from that, like you build forgiveness. And only then can we call it an aligned action? You can go into like okay, how do I want to change actually change the narrative and change my story and go into action?

Kyira Wackett: 37:00

Yeah. And when I so I I break it down as kind of five phases in, and I I now do this in a program I just launched it in January, and it's basically what I was doing in the therapy room, but now making it more accessible for people to kind of do in a self-study and with more of a supportive group. So you're right. So the first step I think about is first you need to figure out what's the issue and sort of sort of engage with your present self. What is the problem and why is it a problem for you? Why do you not like this? What is the issue? Second step, build the insight into the cause and effect of it. How did we get here and what's the effect of staying here? How is it rippling into your relationships? How is your sense of self creating pain and suffering? And that's really where we build that sense of kind of responsibility taking, but also kind of empowerment and control. Then we go, okay, so now we've gone to our present self, we've looked at our past, we've started to bring some integration there. Now we're gonna look at where do we want to go with it. So given everything that we see, what do we want to do with this? And the goal, as you're sort of creating or defining your goals moving forward, is to say, I'm gonna stop trying to write a different chapter to everything that's already happened. I'm gonna take the pen back and start writing the stories moving forward. Really think about what that means to integrate my whole story, past, present, and future into that to live in alignment. Then it's clarifying what do we need to get there? So we're still get in the car. It's kind of like, all right, you know where you want to go, you're gonna road trip.

Jennifer Walter: 38:32

Yeah, you have like your map, you have no north sky.

Kyira Wackett: 38:34

Exactly. Yes. What are the snacks you need? What's your playlist? What are you gonna do when you get tired? What are your yellow flag spots? And then it's action. And it then it's really about kind of moving forward. And one of the key steps in that sort of step four and step five is forgiveness. And it's the forgiveness of others, it's the forgiveness of yourself. And I really shame resilience cannot happen without the practice of forgiveness. And forgiveness is not saying what we did, what someone else did is okay or is absolved or is justified. Justice is a whole separate moral virtue. What we're saying is that we're gonna stop being tethered to the pain of what we did or didn't do, or what someone else did or didn't do. So we're not gonna keep flipping back to chapter two and punishing ourselves or punishing someone else. We're not giving power there anymore. We're gonna say that happened. We're gonna feel our pain, and now we're gonna move forward with it, integrating it into the story. Yeah. We're not forgetting it, but we're gonna move forward. And so that really, once we get to that point, now we can start to roll. Now it's an iterative process of skill building while still maintaining flexibility that what I thought I wanted at 22 is different than what I want at 35 and is gonna be different than what I want at 50.

Jennifer Walter: 39:47

That is okay.

Kyira Wackett: 39:48

Exactly. Exactly.

Jennifer Walter: 39:52

I feel the integration bit. So I know like for my clients, like I'm not like sometimes I see a lot of them they have they're kind of like two types the one who do integrate and the one who are kind of like that close before they do integrate, and they have like a plethora of information, and all the they have accumulated a gazillion degrees, read all the sound-that books there are, and yet they take no action. And and then they keep beating themselves up again because they're not taking any action. So, how how can we what is like a simple step we can take if we're stuck in that cycle?

Kyira Wackett: 40:47

Yeah, and that's really sort of the opposite of, you know, I talked about how many of us will jump to action first. There's a lot of us that are really comfortable in insight building, and that is just perfection seeking. It's I've got to know everything, be completely I did this for, you know, just to use kind of a non-life kind of blow-up example of I wanted to do public speaking. I spent five years talking myself out of breaking into the public speaking world. I don't know enough yet. I don't have enough time or tenure in the mental health field, I need to do this, I need to do that, I need to read another book, I need to watch another person, I need to go to another person's talk, I need to do all these things. And I sort of liken it to if you're gonna go swimming, and maybe kind of going back to the example of like all the body image stuff we might have to go through. You get the swimsuit on, you get out there. But at some point, if you're gonna go swimming, you gotta get in the pool. You can read about the water, you can buy the most comfortable suit, the aerodynamics of water. Exactly. You can prepare for it, but like you gotta get in the water. And I think it's the releasing of the difference there is the performer versus the learner. And so it's this idea of you're setting unrealistic expectations that you're supposed to get it right the first time. It's the example of if you're gonna bake a souffle for the first time, you don't want to do it in front of your 10 closest friends, you'd rather do it by yourself so that if it fails or flops, it nobody knows. And so in your mind, it's I gotta keep reading, I gotta prep, because the instant I do it, everything has it's the New Year's resolution. January 1st, everything better be better be good. It's got to be perfect. And so I think it's the releasing of the self from that to say, what if instead, because we actually have data that that doesn't work, that life and sort of the experimental design is about trying and flopping and failing over and over again. What if instead you said, what is what is round one? I'm gonna beta test this instead of saying this is me sort of doing this whole self-study so I can come out and tell the world I'm healed. Look at everything's better. And just I got my shit together. Look. Exactly, exactly. None of us have it together. Again, I you and I, we specialize in these areas. We do it every day. And there are some days I have made a case that I should not be a mom, that my husband is definitely gonna leave me. I am the worst therapist on the planet. I'm probably hurting more people than I'm helping. Like when we let it, shame really runs rampant. So instead, just saying, What are my values? Who am I doing this for? Be really clear about that. Because if you're constantly worried about being perfect, you're still doing it for the wrong reasons. You're doing it for everybody else. Yeah. Instead, give yourself the gift of saying, I don't need this to be perfect, but I do need to show up for myself and I need to jump in the water. And it's okay that it's gonna be cold, and it's okay that it's gonna be scary. I have done the work to stand up in the water and be okay.

Jennifer Walter: 43:40

Yeah, and that's leads us back to what we what have you said previously, right? Like the moment you jump into the water, you will feel so much resistance. It will feel cold and wet, and you don't want to be there, and you fucking hate it. Yep. And that's a lot of the things like where integration also that's kind of like the next I feel tricky bit with integration, right? Like some days the pool is warm, the weather is nice, and you're like, Oh, I love swimming, and then the other days it's just cold and dark and gray, and you're like, Nope, nope, not having any of this. Yep, and to then be like you can either push yourself through that works for some people short term, right? I know that it led me to burn that, right? Right. So to really, yeah, go again with it, with curiosity, self-compassion.

Kyira Wackett: 44:38

Yeah, and and my my motto is flexible grace in a relentless pursuit.

Jennifer Walter: 44:45

Most things beautiful.

Kyira Wackett: 44:47

Thank you. I think so much of it is this idea of everything is trends based. One bad day, one and whatever your quote unquote bad day means is not enough to derail you. When I'm working with somebody in the you know, eating disorder recovery, trauma recovery, addiction recovery, you're gonna relapse. A relapse or a hard day, that's that's expected. That's normal. What we're looking for is trends. We're looking for weeks, months of you not engaging in your coping skills, years of you avoiding going to your meetings, doing these other things. That we're looking for that. And I think that's the part where, again, this goes back to you could push yourself, and there is a certain degree of needing to do that. There is that self-accountability.

Jennifer Walter: 45:34

Yeah, I mean, you said at some point you gotta go into the water. Agree.

Kyira Wackett: 45:37

Exactly. But not every day. And that's where the flexible grace comes in is can I step back and give myself permission to have a day and start to notice the trend? Am I giving myself permission every day? Am I talking myself out of it because it feels hard? And it's it's that idea of when I do a workout and they'll give you, you know, if you need to scale down to this or if you need this change or accommodation, if you need to take a break. And then they'll say, but ask yourself, is it a need or a want? And I think that's the other thing, especially connecting to our bodies again. We try to make our bodies kind of so far disconnected, we don't listen to it. So you don't need to sleep. I'm gonna stay, I'm gonna stay up and finish this project. You don't need to eat, I'm gonna work through what I know whatever. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. That's not sustainable. So is this your body's need or is it your shame's want? And that's the question I think. If we can hold that, that helps us recognize if it is your body's need, take the honor it day off. Exactly. Exactly. If it's shame's want, you might still give it a day. Sometimes it's gonna be at the table. Set a timer, give it two days, and then we come back to the to the pool. But I think that distinction is really key.

Jennifer Walter: 46:50

Yeah. And I I feel like you love what you said, like we're kind of like down looking for the short-term fix and independent. And while you're doing that, like be aware that like all our systems, like they're they're working against you. Exactly. Like, I mean in our like capitalist society, we're incentivize like to practice short-term gains over any long-term benefits. Like it's you really have to work hard at times to be like, no, I I know what I like what my shame is telling me I want right now. But maybe that's just I don't know, like a shiny coin in disguise, and to be like, okay, what do I really need? That's a really good, that's a really good like distinction. I love that. Sometimes I feel like also then people come like, oh, but it it feels so hard. And I'm like, yes, that's good. That means you're doing something new.

Kyira Wackett: 48:06

Yeah, exactly.

Jennifer Walter: 48:08

Like new exactly, new is oh well, new is probably at the beginning, always feel well, always feel uncomfortable and like no, no, no. And so that's good. Celebrate that. You're doing something different. Woohoo! Go you.

Kyira Wackett: 48:25

Right. Which comes back to, I think, you know, kind of tying it all together. If you can get clear on your values and your why, yeah, in the thick of that discomfort, you can ask yourself if it roots back to that or not. Because if it does, it's way easier to stick with something if we know that it connects to a long-term goal. We've all done that. We've all stayed the course when things are hard and tricky because there's a goal that's important to us. And so if you can know that and you can say, gosh, this does suck, I'm gonna validate that that this sucks really bad. And some days I'm not doing it at a hundred percent. And I'm gonna give myself that grace. And I know that this is a necessary discomfort for me based on the change that I'm looking for, and I'm deserving of that. Yeah, and not only am I deserving, but I'm capable of that, even though I've spent decades telling myself I'm not.

Jennifer Walter: 49:10

Yeah. And if you feel that disapproach is not like you're keep still keep doing the like right, the short-term thing, it might just be a sign that there's more healing to do, then go back to curiosity, right? Like the and be like, hey, why do I keep still doing that? Exactly. I love this. Oh, this was such a like I don't know, chicken soup for the soul kind of episode.

Kyira Wackett: 49:43

Sorry, that was like, no, I mean, those books were awful, but I've but they but they weren't at the time we needed them. So when you said it, I was like, oh no, because when I was in middle school, that shit was like therapy for me. So that was like therapy, yeah.

Jennifer Walter: 49:58

That wasn't the therapy, like there were no podcasts, like listen, kids, there were no podcasts. We couldn't just Google shit. We had to be chicken soup for the soul to actually know what's what. Yeah, yeah. So that that hit in a good way for me. And it was also like the really the only things at a time my teenage heart understood.

Kyira Wackett: 50:19

Yeah.

Jennifer Walter: 50:19

That weren't too overcomplicated. I'm getting fucking off topic. So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, stay on track. Stay on track, stay on, staying on track, staying on track. Hira, we I feel like we would have a gazillion more episodes in our pockets. So if people wanna hear and see more of you, where can people find you? I know you don't hang out on Instagram, yeah. So where can people find you?

Kyira Wackett: 50:48

So I then come to my website, adversityrising.com, or I'm on YouTube. So I post a weekly video on YouTube on topics such as this. Yeah, so they can find me there and subscribe there, connect via email. And I do an email every two weeks to people's inbox. So if they want to subscribe to my email list, it's kind of the best way to stay in touch with everything I'm doing and all the new stuff coming out.

Jennifer Walter: 51:12

Perfect. And you brought something with you, a workbook. Do you want to tell us more about it?

Kyira Wackett: 51:17

Yeah. So, and really this kind of gets back to what we talked about with that integration of self and really insight versus action. So, one of the things that I wanted to create kind of as a step in the door to do some of this work, because it can feel super overwhelming, is a workbook on self-love. And it's so just this initial practice of starting to understand what is self-love, how do I define it for me? What does that look like in the workbook? You'll go through some of these processes on forgiveness. You'll do some relationship assessments to see how the people in your life are serving you, not serving you, where we need to make changes. You'll look at how you're investing your time, money, and energy, maybe in ways that lines up with shame and ways that doesn't. So I think listening to this episode, there's a lot of the topics we talked about. You'll see, so there'll be some familiarity, which I think makes it feel a little less scary to get started in something like this. And so, yeah, just kind of taking this, it's broken down into four chapters. There's tons of work available to you. And then if there's something that you feel stuck on that feels really hard or tricky, email me. And I might have a video or something different, or other people doing work in those specific areas I can connect you to. But I think building that strength and capacity to go deeper and some of this more systemic, meaningful change for ourselves. I think systems as a human, an individual, this is a great place to start. And again, really makes it accessible and focuses on what's your why and how do we really anchor you to that and give you permission to define it for yourself?

Jennifer Walter: 52:47

Oh, I love this. So we're gonna link everything in the show notes. And then I have one final question, and I'm really curious. What book are you currently reading?

Kyira Wackett: 52:58

So I just I have two sides. So I I actually, because I love reading the mental health, the self-help books, but I have a really hard time pushing myself to do it, and I can't read them at the end of the night because then I'll get wired and yes, I totally feel Leon Disc. Yeah, yeah. So to get myself to do it, I started a therapeutic book club. So now once a quarter, I have a therapeutic book club where I have eight people come, we all read the book together. It's kind of like small group therapy, but I get to keep reading the books too. So I just finished Atlas of the Heart with my last book club, and holy shit, is it a great book! So if people haven't read it, I highly recommend it. It is just a fantastic way to make language and connection to emotions feel more accessible. So that one, and then I am kind of deep down the rabbit hole of reading the Bridgerton series. So that's my like before bed. I read most of them. I'm rereading one right now because I know there's a new series coming out on Netflix soon. So I am deep in the whole of that. I'm very much especially, and I've learned recently because of trauma, because of sort of insecure attachment, that I crave rom-com books, movies because of the predictability. Everything works out, it's the same outcome, just different characters every time. So there's a certain degree that my trauma brain loves in that. So it's very calming for me because I know it's gonna work out. I know everything has a predictable outcome. I also just love that it's like I will start a book and I'll be like, I don't even remember which one I'm reading, and then I'll come back into it because they all are like the same. So they're great to read before bed, but they bring me a lot of joy. So I'm back in the Bridgerton series right now.

Jennifer Walter: 54:43

I love all of that, and I I feel seen called out and shattered all at the same time because like I like what you said, read trauma and like reading like predictability. Yeah, like I'm like holy budge, I do the fucking same thing with like Chiclet. I there's this series, it's a British author called Jenny Colgan, and she has like loads, she she always does books in like three, four, or fives.

Speaker 1: 55:14

Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Walter: 55:14

And one of them is like, meet me at the cupcake cafe, and then cut Christmas at the cupcake cafe, and then summer at the cupcake. Oh, yeah, and you always know how it's just gonna fucking end. Yeah, but the bat like the best, the best. I will drowse up to to to sleep land happily.

Kyira Wackett: 55:31

Yep, exactly. And there it is, it's a very calming experience for our brains. And so I didn't know that until recently, but yeah, I did not know it either.

Jennifer Walter: 55:39

That is a trauma response, but it makes total sense though.

Kyira Wackett: 55:41

Oh, yeah. And and my my kid now, again, she's three, but Jordan, my husband, and my daughter both now, when we're watching a movie together, and you know, it's like Disney movies and stuff now, or when it's just him and I and we're watching other movies, like I will sob because I love it when things work out. And it goes back to that same thing. And that's the thing I love about these books is like they're a little raunchy, they're a little bit, you know, whatever. So there's that fun part, but it's also the comfort of knowing something is gonna work out. And I think it helps things feel a little bit more manageable. So for everybody that reads those books, take the shame out of those because there's a reason why our brains like them and why we're so highly attuned to wanting things like that. You're not gonna, you know, exactly. Just let them be a part of the joy that you have in your life.

Jennifer Walter: 56:28

What beautiful words to end this. Kira, thank you so much for being on a scenic group podcast with me.

Kyira Wackett: 56:35

Thank you.

Jennifer Walter: 56:40

And just like that, we've reached the end of another journey together on the scenic group podcast. Thank you for spending time with us. Curious for more stories or in search of the resources mentioned in today's episode. Visit us at scenegrootpodcast.com for everything you need. And if you're ready to embrace your scenic route, I've got something special for you. It's crafted for those moments when you're seeking courage. Yearning to trust your inner voice and eager to carve out a path, ethically, unmistakably yours. Your scenic route affirmation today, and let it support you. Excited about where your journey might lead, I certainly am. Remember, the scenic route is not just about the destination, but the experiences, learnings, and joy will discover along the way. Thank you for being here. I love the forward to see you on the scenic route again.