The Sober Butterfly Podcast

Getting Sober in Your Twenties with Therapist Kendall B. | Anxiety, Alcohol & Learning to Heal

• Nadine Mulvina

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In this episode of The Sober Butterfly, host Nadine Mulvina is joined by licensed therapist and mental health counselor Kendall Bierman for an open, honest, and empowering conversation about getting sober in your twenties.

Kendall shares her personal journey—from struggling with anxiety and alcohol use in college to becoming a therapist who now helps others navigate similar challenges. Together, Nadine and Kendall explore how anxiety often fuels substance use, why therapy is a powerful tool for healing, and how to build lasting recovery rooted in self-love and emotional resilience.

Topics discussed include:

  • Kendall’s path to sobriety and how it shaped her career
  • The connection between anxiety, alcohol, and avoidance
  • Why learning to sit with discomfort is key to healing
  • The role of AA and other supportive sober communities
  • How self-compassion transforms the recovery journey

💬 The episode wraps with a game, “Therapy Hotline,” where Kendall gives rapid-fire advice for common sober scenarios—like how to deal with toxic exes, party invites, and handling a slip.

✨ Whether you're sober curious, early in recovery, or just need a reminder that you're not alone, this episode is full of relatable gems and grounded mental health insight.

🧠 Connect with Kendall Bierman for therapy and resources:

📲 Follow @kendallbtherapy for more inspo & visit kendallbtherapy.com 

🎧 Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube!

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Nadine Mulvina:

Hello. Hello, beautiful butterflies and welcome back to The Sober Butterfly. I'm your host, Nadine Mulvina, and today we are joined with an incredible guest. We have Kendall Bierman here. Kendall is a licensed therapist and mental health counselor who specializes in helping people navigate their relationship with substances. She's also sober herself and has an incredible story of going from struggling in college to becoming the therapist she once needed. I'm so excited to have you here, Kendall. Welcome to The Sober Butterfly. How are you today?

Kendall Bierman:

I am so good. Thank you so much for having me. Nadine, what an introduction. I love that from being the therapist that I, that I needed.

Nadine Mulvina:

I actually got sober in therapy. Like I truly owe my life to my therapist. If it wasn't for her, her gentle touch, first and foremost, because I think we can get into it, but I'm sure as a therapist, you know that each client is different. And so she got to know me before she started to question or have me question my relationship with alcohol. So it wasn't like out the gates, she was like. I think you need to quit drinking. I needed that low touch approach. So, yeah, I just truly love therapy. I'm still in therapy and like I said, owe my life to my therapist. So you're doing amazing work that is so needed. So thank you for being a therapist and I can't wait to hear your story. So I wanna back up., what led you to drinking in the first place, and how did you realize that you needed to reframe or quit drinking altogether? I.

Kendall Bierman:

Yeah, so that's a great question. Especially like what led to the drinking, because I think oftentimes drinking is a symptom of something greater that's happening. And for me, what was underneath the drinking was a lot of anxiety. Like a lot, a lot, and insecurity, low self-esteem. I had anxiety, I think for as long as I can remember. Like I remember being six years old, I was convinced I'd be kidnapped, like out my bedroom window. So, uh, that changed as I got older to more like social anxiety and more kind of generalized and I. In high school I was a very anxious person. I was a very black and white thinker of like giving everything your all or don't bother at all. And that worked for me for a time until I was dropped off at college and I was just completely in over my head. I was really emotionally, I think immature for my age and I just wasn't ready. I couldn't give it my all anymore because my anxiety was so crippling that then I started not showing up to classes, not doing the things I needed to do. And the way I began to cope with that was through drinking. I think, you know, entering college as a freshman, I felt, well, I'm gonna create myself. I'm gonna be this cool party girl. But I had so much anxiety, I couldn't do that as like a non-drinking person. So I really relied on alcohol to make friends, to go out to party, to be this person that frankly, I'm, I'm just like not I think I wasn't okay with who I was and I didn't know, what I was without alcohol or how I could fit in. And so while it started off pretty fun going out to parties and drinking, it started to lead to, okay, well now I'm going to lunch with somebody new and I'm feeling anxious, so I'm gonna have a shot or two before I go to this lunch. And that escalated to them almost daily drinking and. Being hung over every day, not going to classes not doing the things that I used to really have a lot of interest in because alcohol became my whole life. I ended up taking a medical leave from the first school that I went to because I wasn't showing up to classes and all I was doing was. For the most part, drinking during the day by myself until it was nighttime and it was acceptable to drink. And I'd go out with friends and party. And I had to leave school. I went to therapy. I did IOP, intensive outpatient, I transferred. And I thought I could try and moderate and I really did try hard to do that. And it would work for like a couple months at a time and then lead back to where it was. And so my college experience was really challenging for me. I really wanted to be a normal drinker. I wanted to be able to go to parties and be a part of Greek life and have that like. I don't know how you picture it in the movies. I guess how you picture that college experience to be like the best four years of your life. And for me it was riddled with like, I'm trying to drink it with everyone else, but I can't. And now I'm missing classes and now I'm failing classes and I have really low self-esteem because I don't understand why I can't do it. And it really took a toll on me. But during that time I did go to therapy. I had a therapist who was willing to meet me where I was at because I wasn't ready to give up alcohol yet when I was in college, I knew it was a problem, but I just wasn't there. And so I had a therapist who showed me unconditional support and guidance. And when I did somehow manage to finish college that. Is when I was like, okay, I'm ready to, to make, make the change. I'm ready to stop drinking. And I ended up going to inpatient rehab. And I came out and went to intensive outpatient therapy again, I. Lived in sober living. I did all the things I needed to do to really change my life. And when I was in college, it felt like impossible to do that in a really big drinking, environment. And so what brought me to wanna be a therapist, I did major in psychology in college because I was struggling so much. I had so much anxiety. I was like, this makes sense to me. It, I just got it. So chose the one major that was as close to like majoring in Kendall as I could. So,

Nadine Mulvina:

that.

Kendall Bierman:

So Yeah, that's what I chose. And then when I did get sober was in rehab and I, I told my parents I wanted to be a therapist. They were like, you kinda like, you need to get sober and get your life together. I was like, I will, and then I'm gonna be a therapist,

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah,

Kendall Bierman:

when I was struggling in college, I think there's the stereotype of what an alcoholic looks like.

Nadine Mulvina:

absolutely.

Kendall Bierman:

pictured someone a lot older, probably a man,

Nadine Mulvina:

Mm-hmm.

Kendall Bierman:

not like a young like a 19-year-old person who's in college or, you know, whatever, whatever. didn't fit that stereotype in my mind,

Nadine Mulvina:

Mm-hmm.

Kendall Bierman:

and it made it really hard then to picture what a life would look like without alcohol because I didn't know anyone. Who I felt was similar to me that lived a life without alcohol and it was worth living. and so I felt I got sober, like I'm fairly young. I know what it's like. And so I kind of wanted to be that support for other people who can look at someone and be like, wow, okay. Not only did this person really struggle, but they're also like sitting here as a therapist now and they

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah.

Kendall Bierman:

what I'm going through. I wanted to be able to like give back in that way.

Nadine Mulvina:

Wow, that's so powerful. I relate to so much of what you shared going back to college. It's interesting when you said like you wanted to reinvent yourself. I too did the same thing. I literally, Kendall changed my name for like the first semester of college. I was like, everyone called me London because I was born in London, but like, I don't have a British accent, I was literally t. Taking on this persona, and similar to what you mentioned, right? I also, it's funny because even like the sober butterfly, it's a playoff of me being called the social butterfly amongst my friends. Starting in college, like I was always the girl who was, you know, over here. I had friends in this friend group, you know, when I was blackout drunk or partying, I would be in everyone's face yapping it up. That wasn't actually true to who I was growing up. Prior to those moments, like I was actually a very shy. Quiet person with a very reserved disposition, like painfully shy as a kid. And of course we outgrow these things, but I used alcohol in a way that was, you know, not only just a social lubricant, but like with courage, like to do all the things and really lean into this identity, this new identity. Like you mentioned, like being the party girl. I think the one difference. The, I'm picking up for me at least, is that I, I was pretty successful and I shouldn't have been, but I was really successful leaning into this persona and because my life, it was falling apart in different areas, but I was able to keep some semblance of like control or. Fake or you know, perceived control. Like my grades were okay. I was a student senator, so I actually think had my grades suffered or had these other like red flags come to the surface, I would've quit drinking a lot sooner, which could have been. A benefit to my life or definitely would've been a benefit because I actually didn't get sober until 30. So I love everything that you mentioned because it sounds like you got sober in your twenties and I think so many people going back to your point around like this stereotype of this archetype of what a problem drinker looks like, yeah. I had very concrete images in my mind. Brown paper bag,

Kendall Bierman:

Yeah.

Nadine Mulvina:

older guy, he lost his wife and kids like, you know, all of these. False narratives that can keep someone stuck and sick because you are like deluding yourself into believing like, oh, well I don't resonate or identify with that. So of course I don't have a problem. But there were moments, Kendall, like I knew there was a problem. I just wasn't ready to like deal with it. So thank you for sharing all of that. I think just so relatable in many, many ways and it's. These conversations that help me reflect and unearth some of those past struggles that I dealt with. And I love when you also mentioned that it's a symptom, like when you drink, it's a symptom of something else. And so you mentioned anxiety specifically. So after you know your experience in college, what age, by the way, Kendall, did you get sober?

Kendall Bierman:

23.

Nadine Mulvina:

23. That is young. And I, I'm imagining, because you mentioned that you felt like you were afflicted with anxiety, like was it anxiety inducing for you to get sober officially at 23 and imagine what life could look like in your early twenties sober?

Kendall Bierman:

Oh yeah.

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah.

Kendall Bierman:

had no clue what it was going to look like. I was so lost. but I was also lost with like the drinking as well. Like

Nadine Mulvina:

Hmm.

Kendall Bierman:

I finished college, it felt like. Somehow I got through college and now I'm supposed to like the rest of my life and I can't drink. That's been made clear, but I also was like, how do I live a life without that? Especially at

Nadine Mulvina:

Hmm.

Kendall Bierman:

I'm like, what am I gonna do with my time?

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah.

Kendall Bierman:

so there was a lot of anxiety about giving up. I think that's why I drank. You know, I continued drinking throughout college because it feels like you're giving up a really huge part of your life. At least it did. It did for me. It felt like I'm giving up the fun, I'm giving up the connection. I was giving up a lot of bad stuff too, but I wasn't sure what was going to replace it and how it was going to be better, other

Nadine Mulvina:

Right.

Kendall Bierman:

that I'm not hungover and drunk all the time. So there was a lot of anxiety which is why I did inpatient and did a lot of therapy because. I kind of needed to like reframe the way I looked at it and figure out also how to enjoy life without it and how to manage my anxiety without alcohol, which was huge because a lot of us. Drink even if you don't have a drinking problem, like maybe you drink'cause you had a bad day or you had a great day or whatever, but you're using it to kind of manage your emotions a bit how do you manage your emotions without substances? That was really hard and that's really what I learned a lot from in therapy. How to deal with my anxiety, how to kind of accept it as it comes and not hide and run from it, which was what I used alcohol for.

Nadine Mulvina:

I'm, I'm getting chills quite literally because yes, we, we deflect, we self-medicate to soothe or protect ourselves or whatever perceived notion of protection that looks like at that point in time when you're drinking because you feel anxious, I. Or when you're drinking because you want to connect with other people, like you are not doing it intentionally to like cause harm. Like you really believe that this is helping. And so that distortion makes it hard for people to necessarily understand like, maybe I don't need to turn to substances. And I just think a lot of people drink as mentioned to self-medicate. I am wondering, what are some healthier ways to manage anxiety or manage other afflictions without alcohol? And now a quick word from our partners. Okay, listen up butterflies. If you are anything like me, you want to feel good, look good, and glow from the inside out without spending hours in the kitchen trying to make some sad little salad taste interesting enter Sakara. Sakara is not just a meal program. It is a whole. Lifestyle. Think a community of wellness girlies who actually get it. It's organic plant-based impact with the highest quality ingredients, none of that processed bs. And let's be real, I don't have time to be figuring out what my gut actually needs with Sakara. I just open the fridge, grab my meal, and boom, it's done. Convenience. Chef's kiss and the results. Girl, let me tell you, my digestion thriving, my skin glowing, my energy unstoppable. It's like my body finally got the memo that we are no longer poisoning it with tequila. So if you're ready to invest in your health and actually feel amazing, go to sakara.com and use my code TSB Health Sakara for 20% off your first meal program or supplements 20% off if you're a first time client. So if you've been thinking about it, this is your sign. Join me in the Sakara Circle and let's step into our wellness era together. What are some healthier options that you learned through your therapy experience and like even now in your expertise as a therapist?

Kendall Bierman:

So one of the things I had to learn. Which I think a lot of people don't want to hear learning to be uncomfortable. And that means sitting in it.

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah.

Kendall Bierman:

in in the S word.

Nadine Mulvina:

Mm.

Kendall Bierman:

I think a lot of people who turn to substances are very pain averse. As soon as we experience a negative feeling or negative physical or emotional feeling, we turn to the substance. Ooh, I don't wanna feel that way. part of learning to stop using substances is sitting with it and realizing that it's not gonna kill you. I can sit with my anxiety and realize this isn't going to last forever. It's going to fade. Like, in fact, what I teach a lot of my clients, and I learned it early on in therapy, really strong. Physical reactions and emotions, they peak after about 90 seconds after. Right? So after that, they start to fade. So if we can ride it out, if we can sit in that emotion for 90 seconds, which we can do most things for 90 seconds, it will start to fade. It will start to go away. And once you kind of are learning, wow, I can sit in that feeling and I'm okay, and it's starting to fade, we build confidence in that and we realize we can get through it. It's like an exposure. Being exposed to your emotions. in addition to that,'cause we don't wanna just sit in the pain all the time. We also have to learn how to have an enjoyable life, which another way of like dealing with the negatives is having a community, having people that you can turn to because to do anything alone so, so hard.

Nadine Mulvina:

I know.

Kendall Bierman:

Right. Like you wanna be with people who understand what you're going through or can at least be a good listener. For

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah.

Kendall Bierman:

was like aa in the very beginning. I'm not, I don't really go anymore. That's just like my own journey. I think it helps a ton of people and I loved it from when I was first starting.

Nadine Mulvina:

Mm-hmm.

Kendall Bierman:

but now I have like community in, in other pockets of my life. And I also have, like, I have some sober friends. I have other friends who aren't that big a drinkers, and I have some friends that. Do drink, but having community, having people that you can go to and speak to about how you're feeling is really important.

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah, I think that plus representation matters, which is why, once again, these conversations are so important. And I especially like to elevate the voices of women, younger women. Because when I got sober at 30, I mean, I wasn't like a spring chicken, but I didn't know Kendall, anyone in my life that was sober. I had prior to that one sober roommate in my earlier twenties when I first moved to New York, who. Was sober. I don't even know if I would call her sober, because she never had a problem with drinking. She just never drank. And she, I hate to admit this, but I've said it before on the podcast, like, she was not fun, Kendall. She was not fun. So like, imagine that's my only, like, that like that's my only point data point to like reference when I'm like thinking,

Kendall Bierman:

about this,

Nadine Mulvina:

yeah.

Kendall Bierman:

I can relate to the least is a person who just like doesn't like drinking and they just don't do it. I'm like, no, I loved drinking. That was my problem.

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah. I thank you for saying that. That is brilliant because yeah, you're right. Like I, I can connect with someone in an active addiction more than someone that's like, yeah, I just, I never had a taste for.

Kendall Bierman:

it. I'm like, how does that

Nadine Mulvina:

Right. I'm like, Ugh, why is my skin crawling? I'm good for you. Good for you. You get a gold star. But no, it, it's true like, so, like to your point in the connection piece, I think is so valuable because if you don't have those positive representations or if you don't have those. Positive relationships with people who kind of understand what it's like to struggle

Kendall Bierman:

Yeah,

Nadine Mulvina:

something like having, you know, any form of codependency or addiction. It can be really. Isolating to your point, and you know, we know the man shared the opposite of addiction is connection or the opposite. Yeah. Of addiction is connection, right? So like if you don't feel like you're connected to anyone, it's really easy to kind of digress or maybe go back to those unhealthier coping mechanisms like drinking. And going back to even the 92nd. Thing that you mentioned about feelings are fleeting essentially and they don't last forever. That is so true. And I actually have talked about the 92nd principle on this. I dunno if it's a principle, but there's studies that have been conducted in psychology around this idea that quite literally a feeling will be released after 90 seconds. But what's interesting about that, and what I want to talk to you about too, is. We trigger or we reactivate the uncomfortable feeling because we are so worked up about not feeling uncomfortable. Like, does that make sense?

Kendall Bierman:

Yeah,

Nadine Mulvina:

So it's like

Kendall Bierman:

of a

Nadine Mulvina:

it can last longer.'cause you're just like, I, I don't wanna, I don't wanna feel this way. So like, you just, you start to get anxious. Yeah. You're fighting it. Exactly.

Kendall Bierman:

like, I, I use this metaphor, you've probably heard it a million times, but it's like if you're, if you ever swam in the ocean and you got pulled down under by a wave, I don't know

Nadine Mulvina:

Mm-hmm.

Kendall Bierman:

experienced that, but what I always learned, when you try to fight it and you're like, oh my God, I gotta get this, gotta get to the surface, you're all of a sudden you're out of breath and you're like gasping for air when you get there. But if you get pulled under and you're like, I'm just gonna be a ragdoll, I'm just gonna let the wave take me and I'm gonna pop back up. It's so much easier. All of a sudden

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah.

Kendall Bierman:

You're not outta breath, you're not freaked out. Emotions are the same. When we try to fight them, we give them more power,

Nadine Mulvina:

Mm.

Kendall Bierman:

them work its way through our body, it it, it's like a wave. It just washes over you.

Nadine Mulvina:

It just washes over you. I love that. So real, like you're exhausting yourself

Kendall Bierman:

Yeah.

Nadine Mulvina:

like just release.

Kendall Bierman:

be anxious. Let yourself be sad. We all feel that way. We go into this judgmental zone as well. It's like we're humans. We have emotions, and they will pass.

Nadine Mulvina:

I love that. And now a quick word from our partners.

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Nadine Mulvina:

So another thing you mentioned Kendall was going to AA or recovery spaces like AA pretty early in your sober journey. I too can resonate with that. My therapist actually recommended that I. Start going to meetings and she actually never use the term alcoholic with me. She was just like, I think it would help you. So I'm wondering from you, as you know, now that you're wearing your therapist hat, do you recommend that your clients or your patients also who may be struggling with substances, do you recommend that they attend recovery meetings such as AA or NA, in conjunction with therapy? Or do you see them as separate entities?

Kendall Bierman:

I do recommend it. I think, I mean, everyone's different. Not everyone feels either like comfortable going or there, it's just not for them. And that's, there are other different groups out there to kind of make a sober community.

Nadine Mulvina:

Mm-hmm.

Kendall Bierman:

but like I. As a therapist, I'm only meeting with my clients for 45 minutes once a week

Nadine Mulvina:

Right.

Kendall Bierman:

And so as much as I'm trying my best to be helpful to them, what are they supposed to do with the whole rest of their week if they're trying to not drink? You know, so like, I wanna be your community and I wanna be your friend, but I also can't be that. And so with that being said, that's why I do think AA and and other like 12 step groups are really helpful. Because all of a sudden you're gonna find you have a lot of time to fill now

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah.

Kendall Bierman:

not drinking or using substances. So not only do you have a lot of time to fill, but. I think it's important to have a community of people that are kind of like-minded and maybe understand what you're going through. And so I think doing that in conjunction with therapy is really helpful because we can work on the skills, we can process things that have maybe gone on and that you're not really gonna do at an AA meeting.

Nadine Mulvina:

Right.

Kendall Bierman:

but then I'm also lacking like that community aspect and so my clients can go and get that outside of the therapy room.

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah, I think that's really wise. and I was telling you before, like I, I'm at a place where I'm just sort of like, I love my therapist, truly, she. Will always be in my life whether she wants to or not. But in terms of like that professional client therapist relationship, I'm feeling a bit stagnant and so I just don't know. I like, I guess my question for you is, do you think that a person needs therapy for the rest of their life, or is there any such thing as like being healed or do we always need therapy?

Kendall Bierman:

I mean, when I describe, like when I say I'm in recovery, the reason I say I'm in recovery, not I'm recovered because it's a lifelong that I have to work at

Nadine Mulvina:

Right.

Kendall Bierman:

to stay in recovery. And the same goes for any type of mental illness. Like if I see a client who has anxiety, they don't, one day it's like, oh, you're cured. You don't have any

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah. Yeah.

Kendall Bierman:

like that'd be great, but more so you learn how to deal with it. You learn how to manage it and it becomes a lot less of an issue in your life, but

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah.

Kendall Bierman:

maintenance. And so for a lot of people, it's not that maybe you need to be in therapy for the rest of your life, but that is a space where they can get their 45 minutes of like their maintenance, of keeping self-awareness, of making sure they're using the skills to help them. And if something does go wrong in their life, because. That's a part of life, right? We have hardships. They ha

Nadine Mulvina:

Mm-hmm.

Kendall Bierman:

have an established relationship with their therapist and that's really helpful. Then when like something goes wrong and you kind of need to talk through it with your therapist. I do also think like treatment fatigue is real, and sometimes someone will hit a point where the therapy starts to feel like a chore, and you start to feel like, right, like, all right, I feel good. I don't really know why I'm coming here and spending this money anymore. resentment can build and that's not helpful to anybody. And

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah.

Kendall Bierman:

happening, I think a break can be just what you need or maybe a different type of therapy if that's what you want. But it's really up to personal preference. Like I see my therapist and I'm almost seven years sober, and while I think I could live life without her at least, well, I know I could live life without her. I really like seeing her each week or

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah. Yeah.

Kendall Bierman:

week when I do see her, because she helps me stay aware. I like to say like. Especially the new clients in sobriety, a relapse happens before the actual relapse, right? so I can become more aware of when my mood is starting to dip, when things are starting to maybe not go as well. My, my therapist could say, Hey, you're doing that thing that you do, and That's, not really a great sign. I'm like, oh, you're right. so yeah, it

Nadine Mulvina:

That's,

Kendall Bierman:

to person.

Nadine Mulvina:

that is powerful, truly because to your point, We don't just relapse, we don't just wake up one day and hit the bottle. Like there, there are signs, there are symptoms, there are red flags that start popping up. We are very good at tricking ourselves. Like we're, our brains are super smart. Like we're very good at diluting ourselves with the thinking that we have it under control. I think for me personally, I sometimes find myself romanticizing. My former drinking life, like the lifestyle, the, the good parts. Obviously that's the ous, that's the romanticizing of it, right? Not the bad parts. And so I have to be mindful of that. Do I ever want to drink again? No. Do I think I actually will go and drink? Hopefully not. But like that's the part that I need to be honest with myself about. Like I know who I am and I know what I'm capable of. And I, I think the therapy to your point, kind of keeps you grounded and it helps you. I. Hold you accountable. And it's a sounding board. It's a third party that someone that you trust who's able to give you that feedback that maybe you, yourself may recognize or may not recognize. But either way, like it's, sometimes we can, we can lead ourselves astray. Like we can be our worst ally.

Kendall Bierman:

It's hard. It's, it's hard to stay like self-aware at all times

Nadine Mulvina:

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kendall Bierman:

to do that means you have to be willing to face things that you might not be willing to face. And that's hard to do. And so a therapist can be like, Ooh, you're avoiding this, this thing. Or, you know, you're not aware that this actual, this thing is going on in the background. And so you don't wake up one day and just turn to the bottle

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah.

Kendall Bierman:

or relapse, whether it's like with food or another issue.

Nadine Mulvina:

Oh yeah. I think that's another thing for me. Like, the pendulum shifts into another area, so

Kendall Bierman:

Yeah,

Nadine Mulvina:

I overwork or over exercise or overeat, and it's just like those are signs you overwork.

Kendall Bierman:

Yep.

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah, yeah. Workaholic over here. So those parts I think are helpful to recognize as well because sometimes they can shift into other areas and so we need to be mindful of that. And to your point, yeah, it's really hard to be self-aware and it's easier for a another person from the outside to pick up on those things. Especially a trained licensed therapist who has been working with sub person for years. I love that.

Kendall Bierman:

to pick up on

Nadine Mulvina:

Right. Right. And be vigilant. I love that so much. You mentioned this term, like, I don't wanna say it's necessarily in connection to drinking. So I wanna, I guess, make sure I'm clear. Do you think that alcoholism or alcohol use spectrum is, is a spectrum? Do you think it's a mental disorder?

Kendall Bierman:

Wow, that's a loaded question.

Nadine Mulvina:

I don't mean to be like, I literally, when you said that I was, my ears peaked up because I'm like, yeah, is it a mental health condition? Like, like I have a DHD, like, you know, like, that's a disorder. Is it? Is it a disorder? Is it considered a mental health issue?

Kendall Bierman:

technically yes, it is in the Diagnostic and Statistical manual. It is listed as alcohol use disorder, and

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah.

Kendall Bierman:

specifiers of whether it's severe, if you're in remission or uncomplicated. There's all these different terminologies for how you might diagnose someone.

Nadine Mulvina:

Mm-hmm.

Kendall Bierman:

there are a lot of different models. There's the disease model, there's the genetic model, and there's like the mental. Disorder model. I mean, I think they all kind of go together.

Nadine Mulvina:

Mm-hmm.

Kendall Bierman:

and I would say that yes it is, and I it is. I mean, it's a mental disorder. It's listed as one. And I think that especially shows up because if you take away the substance, it can like move onto other things, whether it's food or work as you were just talking about, it's almost like

Nadine Mulvina:

Replacement.

Kendall Bierman:

Kind of addictive personality and this avoidance.

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah. Yeah.

Kendall Bierman:

talk about that a lot. And so it's interesting in the DSM, there's all these different types of substance disorders. They have cocaine use disorder, alcohol use disorder, and it's

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah,

Kendall Bierman:

of silly to me.

Nadine Mulvina:

The same

Kendall Bierman:

right. Like exactly. They

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah.

Kendall Bierman:

of serve a similar purpose, which is to like avoid or escape.

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah. Yeah, I, when I, going back to meetings, AA meetings specifically, when I was going to those meetings, it was partly problematic for me to hear, but also helpful in the same breath. This idea of like, I had, oh, I used to go to a women's meeting specifically. That's where I felt most connected and. Talking about representation and how that matters. There was one girl that I was basically girl crushing on. She just had her life together. She looked beautiful, she was successful. She had a beautiful husband. Like she was basically what I wanted to be, and so I was like, wow, she's an alcoholic. If she's claiming that, like, sign me up, like I wouldn't be like her,

Kendall Bierman:

Yeah.

Nadine Mulvina:

I reference her specifically because she would always say like. Me like, and, and my addict brain, like she was, she would use that terminology often, like me and my addict brain. And that was a way for her to, I guess, like keep that in the forefront, like make that very clear that like, I am an addict. And even though I'm not using at this time, like I'm not drinking. I know who I am and I know how my brain works. And so that's why, why, when you said mental disorder, I I was thinking actually about her and like Yeah. Like. I find that I have an addictive personality and I can use that as a positive, where like I pour into things that really matter to me and I'm invested. But then also I know that like there are moments in time where it can be detrimental to my overall wellbeing, so I have to be mindful. So that's why I bring it up.

Kendall Bierman:

Yeah. I know that's also why they recommend, like, if you're quitting of the substances that you had an addiction to, like, be careful not to replace it with a different substance.

Nadine Mulvina:

Mm-hmm.

Kendall Bierman:

Right, because it's not really about the substance at the end of the day. It's why you're using it in the way that you are. And I mean, I tried to trade alcohol for weed in my story, and I just began smoking like all day, every day. It was

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah.

Kendall Bierman:

for sure, but it still wasn't healthy.

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah, and I think that's partly like harm reduction, right? Like sometimes you have to just maybe shift into another thing that's less destructive, but at the same time, like, and that's where therapy can really come into play, right? Because if you are being honest and self-reporting like, Hey, I'm. You know, I'm using this other thing now, and now I'm dependent on this other thing. It's like, you know, it is, it, it can be a cycle, it can be a slippery slope. And so, yeah, that's a great point. And I think that's so often what I hear people like turn to weed or they turn to vaping or they turn to energy drinks and caffeine and sugar and it's just like,

Kendall Bierman:

Yeah.

Nadine Mulvina:

the sugar is like a big one. That's probably my biggest addiction, to be honest with you, is like,

Kendall Bierman:

Yeah, me too.

Nadine Mulvina:

So yeah, just being mindful of that and trying to. Do better, I think is is important. Obviously, like once you know that, that's a great start, but then you have to act like we have to make changes as needed.

Kendall Bierman:

Yeah.

Nadine Mulvina:

And now a quick word from our partners.

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Nadine Mulvina:

Hello, hello, and welcome back to The Sober Butterfly. I am joined with Kendall. And Kendall, has shared some incredible gems with us so far as a licensed therapist. And so I have a fun game I wanna play. Is that cool with you, Kendall? Are you ready to play therapy hotline? I've been really experimenting with my games and like this one is very much curated for you, so you'll be the first person to play therapy hotline. Here we go.

Kendall Bierman:

am so excited.

Nadine Mulvina:

I'm so excited to debut it, so I'm gonna say a scenario, and I would love for you to put on your therapist hat and give us your quick therapist style advice based off of the scenario I provide. Does that make sense? Okay, so it's a hotline. Caller number one, help Kendall, my toxic ex. Just text me. I miss you. What do I do?

Kendall Bierman:

Hmm. Well. I mean, I would first ask, do you want to talk to this person again? Is this, do you wanna reopen this door because they're trying to open the door? And let's play the take through for a minute. Let's imagine you respond right now. What's going to happen tomorrow or the next day? Are you get, are you being sucked back in right now? And is that where you wanna go? Is that where you're picturing your future?

Nadine Mulvina:

For the plot, but no for the plot, yes. But before reality, my real life, no. And he's still emotionally unavailable. We know this. So I think that's amazing. Play the tape forward. Yes. Love that.

Kendall Bierman:

Put on do not disturb, talk to somebody else about it.

Nadine Mulvina:

Yes. Always pause. Do not respond immediately. Put the phone down, or pick it up and call someone else immediately. Or your therapist, use your community. I do actually have my therapist on, like I have her emergency number. I've never used it, but she goes like, call me if you need me.

Kendall Bierman:

So much rather a client like, call me than get back with their toxic text. Please

Nadine Mulvina:

Oh yes. Like I don't care what time it is. It could be two in the morning. Call me. No. Okay, so call in number two. Kendall. I am newly sober and all of my friends still drink. What should I do? Should I just like ghost them?

Kendall Bierman:

So I would say that in the very beginning of sobriety, it's hard to be around people who are drinking or hard to be around people while they're drinking. They always say like people, places, and things, you need to get rid of the people, places, and things that were surrounding around your use. I think that that's temporary. I mean, depending on who these people were, if there's someone who's not supportive and they're trying to get you to drink with them, probably not the people to be hanging out with.

Nadine Mulvina:

Right.

Kendall Bierman:

like these friends and they're generally good, but you're just feeling triggered around them because they're drinking a lot. Take a break and let them know. It also helps to keep you accountable if you're like, Hey, I love you guys. I just like need a break from alcohol right now. Uh, like you could say, can we do other things outside of a bar? Can we go do like these sober or whatever non-drinking activities? And if they're not about that, well then okay, maybe you do need like a break from them and it's a good opportunity to find other sober friends and you could go back to those friendship once you feel more stable in your sobriety. Or you could say, well, if they don't wanna hang out with me sober, like do we really have a deep friendship to begin with?

Nadine Mulvina:

Right. That was the perfect answer. I mean, you said that so succinctly. I say all of those things, but like 10,000 words more like you said, that perfectly like that. Is it basically in a nutshell? Yeah. Like I was very sensitive when I first got sober and I was internalizing like all of these feelings, like nobody understands me and my friends are so inconsiderate and blah, blah, blah. But you know what, I didn't do Kendall. I didn't communicate. Okay. I did not communicate how I was feeling, what I needed. And so. I, I learned it that with time to your point, like when I felt more confident and had more sober time, that I could actually hang with these same friends. I would argue I haven't lost a single friend in sobriety. I've lost only like drinking buddies and acquaintances. But yeah, I, I love that answer. That was brilliant. And everything I say,

Kendall Bierman:

yeah. People aren't mind readers, right? You have to let them know what you need.

Nadine Mulvina:

Exactly. Exactly. Okay, I have two more callers. Next up on the hotline. Caller number three. I feel like I'm the only young person who doesn't drink. It really sucks. There's no question. That's just what they said to you. I feel like I'm the only young person who doesn't drink. It really sucks.

Kendall Bierman:

I can very much relate to that. I was, I mean, as I've said, I was 23 when I stopped drinking for good. It's hard to feel like you're the only person that's not doing it. And when you're feeling like that, it's more important than ever to try and find other people that are in your shoes because they are out there, they're just not obvious.

Nadine Mulvina:

Mm-hmm.

Kendall Bierman:

and so I would encourage you to either. Go to like an AA meeting or a 12 step meeting, or if that's not for you, then look online like go to for instance, like third place bar with Sam, or go to different events, go to different sober events, go to other places because those like fun party events that are sober, they're mostly filled with young people who are looking for a social life, but they're just not drinking.

Nadine Mulvina:

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kendall Bierman:

have to really put in that effort, and that is hard to do, but it's also worth it.

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah, it's hard to do, but once you start doing it and exercising that muscle, it becomes so much easier. Also, it's a reframe, like what does fun look like to you? I would argue yeah, of course I had fun nights when I was out drinking and partying, but I also had terrible experiences drinking and partying. And so I think if you try to redefine what fun can look like, and especially amongst, to your point, community and finding a network of people who are not obsessed with drinking or prioritizing it, like things will start to look up and feel better because you're around people who understand that. Alcohol is not. Everything right? It doesn't need to be your everything. And then one other thing I would say is social media. Truly like sober Instagram. I found so many connections and I know people

Kendall Bierman:

Yeah.

Nadine Mulvina:

you know, weird about online connections, but like I have genuine friends that I've met in real life because of sober Instagram. So if you don't know anyone in your everyday, like I didn't know anyone really sober who I connected with or felt like I could see myself in, especially as a young person, like. Go online, look for examples and

Kendall Bierman:

so right.

Nadine Mulvina:

you know?

Kendall Bierman:

There's a lot of different like sober social media accounts and through those accounts you'll start like meeting other people who are like on a similar path as you. It's pretty amazing actually.

Nadine Mulvina:

it is. Especially if you live somewhere not like a huge city or like whatever, like it's really nice to like know that you have real. People out there that you can potentially meet up with if that's what you wanna do, or just like, they'll put you onto other, like, online experiences, like there are different groups and things that of that nature. So, yeah. Okay. Love that. My final caller calling number four, said that, oh, this one's a good one. Call number four says, Kendall, I can't moderate, I've tried. Being sober and keep relapsing. I guess I'm just meant to be a drinker. Thoughts or feedback for this client or caller?

Kendall Bierman:

What was it? I guess I'm not meant to be a drinker. No opposite. I guess I'm just meant to be a drinker. So I can't moderate. I can't. You know, stay sober. I keep relapsing. I guess I'm just meant to be a drinker. Hmm. Uh, well. I feel like that's so tough'cause I haven't met someone who's like, I guess I'm meant to be a drinker, but more feeling like they just can't hack it.

Nadine Mulvina:

Mm.

Kendall Bierman:

Like they just can't be sober.

Nadine Mulvina:

Well, it's something fear might be under there, right? Like they, they have a limiting belief system because they don't think that they're capable of it, if that makes sense, right? I'm afraid that I can't do it.

Kendall Bierman:

I think I would question like their level of motivation to want to change because it almost sounds like that maybe they don't wanna, maybe it's easier to give up and just say, well, I guess I'm just meant to be a drinker. Then like, so I would really, I would use in therapy jargon. I'm like motivational interviewing and understand like, what, what would their life look like then if that's really what they're meant to be like, is

Nadine Mulvina:

like, what's your why?

Kendall Bierman:

Yeah.

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah. That's, that's it. No, that's, that's brilliant. Yeah. I think that's true because. I had many moments in time where I, you know, thought maybe I should quit drinking and didn't because I wasn't ready and I wasn't willing. Right. So, yeah, I think trying to get to the why and the motivating factors that are driving someone to consider moderation or giving up alcohol and then not being successful, like questioning, okay, like, well, do you really want this? And why? I love that.

Kendall Bierman:

I do wanna also really quickly comment on relapses

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah, please get into it.

Kendall Bierman:

like, oh, I just can't get it. hear and see people who relapse and they feel like, oh my God, I had this amount of time and now I don't have it anymore.

Nadine Mulvina:

Mm-hmm.

Kendall Bierman:

what a waste. And like, it's not like that time you had sober was a waste. You learned so much during that period. But unfortunately, there's more to learn.

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah.

Kendall Bierman:

something happened along the road that led to a relapse, but that doesn't mean. destined to keep relapsing, and it doesn't mean that it's pointless. And while you've lost your day count, so let's just not go back, right? Like I. A day count is just a day count at the end of the day,

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah.

Kendall Bierman:

if you have two years sober and you have one day that you relapse just one and then you come back and you're sober again. In the scheme of things like your life is pretty much staying on track.

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah.

Kendall Bierman:

that one day and turn it into months'cause you're beating yourself up over it, well then that's, that's really a shame.

Nadine Mulvina:

That's really a shame, and I don't know, I'm not a therapist, but it just sounds like an excuse to like get back on. You know, the wagon or fall off the wagon. I don't know if you get off or get on, but you know what I'm trying to say? I think it's kind of like that idea, because, you know, I think about another analogy, like a diet, right? Like, oh, I was so good all month long. I, you know, ate clean, I exercised, and then you have one cheat meal that turns into you going right back to where you started. Now you're eating everything and adjusting everything, not moving your body. It's like. Well, and maybe even to your point earlier, it's like, well, what was your why? Like what was your driving force and why are you going to throw away everything that you've gained in this interim of time because of one bad day or one moment? It just doesn't make sense.

Kendall Bierman:

nothing. The all or nothing, black and white trap

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah,

Kendall Bierman:

is easy to fall into.

Nadine Mulvina:

and I think. I used to be like that too, even before sobriety. Like I never quite described myself as like a black and white thinker, but I can be a semi perfectionist, and I think it's like as, as soon as I'm not doing it. Properly or what I deem to be the right way, I just give up. I'm like, forget it. If it, if it can't be this way, that which is black in my thinking now that I say it out loud. But yeah, it's like, it's an idea. It's like, well, if I can't be the best or if I can't do it properly the way I'm supposed to, then I'm just not gonna do it at all. And it's like, hmm, that's very limiting. That's very like, narrow minded, right? Like, it's sort of like that. Plus I think the pressure, that we put on ourselves, and then even like societal pressure. Being a part of this recovery community in sobriety, like I think that most of the messages are positive, but also some people can be a bit judgmental when it comes to like, oh, well if you drank this one time or if you, I don't know, smoked pot this one time, like, you're not sober. You don't deserve that title. And I think that can be a bit, daunting for people and like they're just like, well, I am. I don't feel welcome. I don't feel welcome if you're going to write me off for like one bad moment. So, yeah. I love that you mentioned that on the positive note, it's sort of like a relapse is a redirection, right? it's a marker in the road. It's like you can go. On this path, one path is leading you to another day of sobriety because we make the choice every day, or you can go the other way and decide that you're going to regress or continue drinking or using or doing whatever because that feels comfortable or that is what you know or that. You're self punishing or whatever it may be. So I wanna think of a relapse as, not like a failure per se. It's just like a a point to reflect and redirect as needed and you decide the course that you wanna take.

Kendall Bierman:

Yeah. And if it's not like a completely earth shattering relapse, like, know, it doesn't have to be, and it can actually be taken as a good thing, it can be used as an opportunity to become that much stronger in your

Nadine Mulvina:

Yeah.

Kendall Bierman:

because you've learned from it.

Nadine Mulvina:

You've learned from it. I love that so much. And now a quick word from our partners. Have you ever wished you could dive into a great story while on the go? Maybe that's during your daily commute or even while working out. Well, now you can, thanks to Audible. Audible is the leading provider of spoken word entertainment in audiobooks, and with Audible, you can turn any moment into a storytime adventure. Imagine having access to an unmatched selection of audiobooks, right now. Audible is not just a library. It's a whole Experience with a vast collection of genres from mystery to romance to self help and business Audible has something for everyone and here's the best part Your first month is on me check the show notes below and visit audible. com slash tsb24 to start your free trial today. Whether you're a seasoned book lover or just getting started, Audible is the perfect companion for your reading journey. So why wait? Head over to audible. com slash tsb24. Audible. Because the best stories are meant to be heard. So just as we wind down, Kendall, some final thoughts, or one last question for you. If someone is struggling with alcohol and mental health, what is one thing that they can do today to take a step toward healing?

Kendall Bierman:

I think show themselves an act of self love because when it comes to mental health and substance abuse, I think there's so much shame and like self hatred, right? And so if today, instead of looking at yourself and feeling so much anger and pain saying like, I'm doing the best that I can, and also there's more that I can do you know, I have love for myself. Starting with that, starting with self-compassion and knowing that you are, you're doing your best. Maybe you can do more. but that doesn't mean that you're deserving of, of pain or suffering. and show yourself an act of self-love, whether it's ordering in some food you really love, or reaching out to a therapist or signing up for a gym. Going to a a different type of exercise class. Some way of showing yourself love.

Nadine Mulvina:

That's beautiful. I love that. And anyone can get sober. Who was struggling at any age, at any given moment, and I love your response because it really does start with self-love and compassion. And if you don't love yourself, which a big part of my drinking I realized was I was very. Hypercritical towards myself, and I didn't love myself in the ways I deserved, and so I was punishing myself. So let's stop doing that. Stop with the negative self-talk. You're doing your best. I love that you said that. But yeah, there's room. There's probably room to grow, but that can be said for anyone. And so that growth can happen in incremental steps. It does not need to be this one culminating, I'm gonna fix every single thing about myself in one given moment. It's just like, decide today and do better tomorrow. Maybe 2%. 3% or whatever percent you can give.

Kendall Bierman:

It doesn't have to be a hundred percent

Nadine Mulvina:

Yes, just whatever you can give in that moment. Start somewhere. Thank you so much, and I hate that we have to end somewhere with this part, but I really thoroughly enjoyed having you on the show, Kendall, and I know so many people will want to connect with you. So where can people find you?

Kendall Bierman:

Well, this has truly been a pleasure being on here. Thank you so much. If people wanna find me, I'm on Instagram and TikTok. I'm at Kendall B therapy, and that's Kendall with two Ls. and then I have my website, which is just. www.kendallbtherapy.com. I'm licensed in New York and New Jersey, so if you are looking for a therapist, you're welcome to go onto my website or follow my social media accounts.

Nadine Mulvina:

And you guys, you need a therapist, okay? We all need therapy. I want you to take that away. Like the one takeaway from this conversation. We can all benefit from therapy. So thank you, Kendall. I'll plug that, I'll plug the all in this show notes for folks to find you and connect with you. Thank you for coming on The Sober Butterfly.

Kendall Bierman:

Thank you.

Nadine Mulvina:

Thank you guys so much for listening to this week's episode of The Sober Butterfly Podcast. Be sure to subscribe, share, and leave a review. It helps more sober girls like you. Find the pod. Make sure that you follow the show, because you don't wanna miss what's coming. Okay, guys. Until next time, stay bold, stay beautiful, stay sober. I love you butterflies. Bye.