The Sober Butterfly Podcast

The People You Meet Along the Way: How Travel Shapes Identity, Purpose, and Connection with Melissa Rodway

• Nadine Mulvina

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In this episode of The Sober Butterfly Podcast, host Nadine Mulvina sits down with writer and traveler Melissa Rodway, author of The People You Meet: Luxury, Leeches, Love, and Lao Lao with a Host of Interesting Characters in Southeast Asia, for a thoughtful, story-driven conversation about how travel shapes identity, purpose, and connection.

This episode goes far beyond bucket lists and destinations. Nadine and Melissa explore the deeper, often unspoken layers of travel—how movement through the world changes us emotionally and spiritually, the people who leave lasting imprints on our lives, and the difference between simply taking a vacation and truly traveling with intention.

Melissa opens up about the realities of travel burnout, travel ego, and knowing when it’s time to come home. She shares how her relationship with travel has evolved with age, why purpose matters more than pace, and how adventure doesn’t disappear as we grow—it simply changes form. The conversation also touches on routine versus freedom, rest versus movement, and how travel can act as both a mirror and a teacher.

Listeners will also hear about unforgettable people Melissa has met on the road, powerful moments from her global travels, and a memorable trip to Jordan that left a lasting impact. Throughout the episode, travel is framed not as an escape, but as a tool for self-discovery, discernment, and deeper connection.

This episode is perfect for anyone who has ever felt changed by a trip, struggled with the tension between adventure and stability, or wondered what they’re really searching for when they book the ticket.

✨ In This Episode, We Discuss:

  • How travel reshapes identity over time
  • The people we meet on the road who stay with us long after the trip ends
  • Travel ego, comparison, and letting go of “travel hierarchy”
  • Recognizing travel burnout and knowing when it’s time to come home
  • The difference between vacations and meaningful travel
  • How purpose and priorities shift as we age
  • Why adventure still matters—even when life changes
  • The inspiration behind The People You Meet

📖 Melissa’s Book

You can find Melissa’s book here:
 👉 The People You Meet: Luxury, Leeches, Love, and Lao Lao with a Host of Interesting Characters in Southeast Asia
https://www.amazon.com/People-You-Meet-Interesting-Characters-ebook/dp/B0F3V7NPW3

🎧 About The Sober Butterfly Podcast

The Sober Butterfly Podcast explores identity, connection, and what it looks like to rebuild a meaningful life after big change. Through honest solo episodes and thoughtful conversations, Nadine Mulvina invites listeners into nuanced discussions about growth, relationships, purpose, and becoming aligned—without needing to burn everything down.

Support the show

Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services refereed to in this episode.

Nadine Mulvina - The Sober Butterfly

Hello, butterflies and welcome back to the Sober Butterfly Podcast. I am your host, Nadine Mulvina. This show started as a space to talk about sobriety. It's grown into something bigger here. We talk about identity, connection and what it looks like to rebuild a life that actually feels aligned after a big change. Today's conversation is all about travel. One of my favorite things to do in life but today we're not talking about travel in the way you might expect. It's all about the people we meet along the way. The versions of ourselves that emerge when we move through the world, and how travel shapes our sense of purpose and belonging. Today I am joined by Melissa, a writer, traveler, and the author of the People You Meet, luxury, leeches Love, and Lao Lao with a host of interesting characters in Southeast Asia. That's quite a title, and Melissa has quite the story. What I love about Melissa's perspective is that she doesn't romanticize travel. She keeps it very honest and real about travel, ego, fatigue, discernment, and how the way we travel evolves as we grow. This conversation is less about destinations and more about meaning, and I think it's going to resonate deeply with anyone who's ever been changed by a trip or a person that they met along the way. Okay. Without further ado, let's get into my convo with Melissa. Hello Melissa. Welcome to the So Butterfly podcast. Thank you so much for coming on. How are you today?

Melissa Rodway

I'm great. Thank you so much for having me and it's gonna be a great conversation with you. I look forward to it.

the-sober-butterfly_2_01-15-2026_180924

I think today's conversation is really special for me as someone who is a Wonder lust, I absolutely adore travel but it's less to do with like the destination for me and more to do with how travel. Changes us and how it can transform us. Not necessarily where we go, but who we become through this movement, this connection, and this time. And so I would love to learn from you, what do you think one of the most powerful parts of travel has been, and have you come across any interesting people along the way?

Melissa Rodway

Well, yes, certainly. I think two things. One, travel is amazing because. makes us go outside of our day to day. So you are pretty much in the unknown. You have no idea what's gonna happen to you every day, and I think that that's a really exciting thing for a lot of people. It's not for everybody, that's for sure. Some people don't want that, but if that appeals to you, there's something really magical about. No longer having schedules and just kind of, you know, being out there in the universe to see what happens to you and who comes across your path, which leads to the second point of what you're asking about people. So I think when you go away, something really. Unique happens to people. They are more open to other people. I think when we're at home, we're very aware of, what's around us and the type of communities and our work and our friends, and who we run into at the store, et cetera. But when you're away, you have. A lot less walls and boundaries around you. And I think that you're way more open to people from all different walks of life coming across your path. You have no idea what they're gonna bring to your experience. I think that some ways we're our most authentic selves when we're removed from our daily lives because, you know, we don't have any of those influences and. think sometimes you surprise yourself the way you act with people you've never met and in places you've never been before because you're kind of reacting to things in a a way you might not react at home. So, certainly both of those things are why we travel and yeah, people. Fascinating people come across your life when you go out on the road, a conversation can stick with you forever. It doesn't mean you're gonna like everybody, but yeah. Fascinating. Really, really interesting. Those connections.

Nadine Mulvina - The Sober Butterfly

I could not agree more. I. Feel that when I travel, it's almost like an opportunity for me to reinvent myself, but maybe it's not even like a reinvention. Maybe that is to your point, like who I authentically am without feeling tethered to familiar places, and I feel like when I travel, I'm more receptive to the universe. As you also mentioned, like just this idea of like. Whatever happens, I'm open to that experience and getting to know people as a part of that process. Just last night, I don't know if you're familiar with, I believe it was a book, the people you meet on vacation and I also we're gonna get into books'cause you're a writer and an author, but there's a movie on Netflix, so I didn't actually read the book. I watched the movie on Netflix yesterday. But there's a character. She's a writer. She loves to travel, travel as a form of escapism from her life, and that's something I related to as someone who drank to escape and also travel to escape. She says that basically when you travel, you're able to become whoever you want, right? Like you can be Sammy or you can be Sarah. You can like who, who really make up this persona to engage with the world. However, I think sometimes there is a key distinction between vacation and travel. Do you also think there is a key distinction and then do you think that people are reinventing themselves sometimes through travel slash vacations, or do you think it's more so like you are just allowing parts of yourself to show up in new ways because you're in a new place?

Melissa Rodway

Well, the first question, there's definitely a difference between vacation and travel. So to me, vacation is an all-inclusive resort or a weekend away or something easy. Although sometimes a weekend away can be more like travel. But I think travel is hard. I don't think vacations are hard and they shouldn't be hard. A vacation should be a vacation, but travel is sometimes very challenging. It can be scary, it can be lonely. Can be full of really sometimes on the spot decisions and troubleshooting and being in uncomfortable places and less desirable places to sleep sometimes. So yes, I, there's no comparison. Those are two totally different things and they both serve their purpose for sure. And I think if you haven't traveled and you assume that traveling is a vacation, then you should. what the difference is'cause it's huge. And then your other point there, I, I think it's, it's a fascinating topic to be honest, because we do become different people when you're, when you're traveling and Yeah. You, you are kind of trying on different identities sometimes. I mean, you're meeting people that. Have nothing to do with you or your history or your past. So you can be a totally different person. Maybe you're being your authentic self. It's fascinating because how do we know really, like, I, I mean when we go away for me,'cause I often go either by myself or like with a group of strangers.

the-sober-butterfly_2_01-15-2026_180924

Cool.

Melissa Rodway

and. just a really refreshing, liberating thing to do to be away when there's not one single person who knows anything about you. Mm-hmm. And, and when you are aware of that and you're with a new group of people and just to see, like you were respond to things differently, then you would with your friend group at home, or maybe you're more shy or maybe you're more outgoing or, I think it's a really interesting experiment that everybody should do it themselves because. I think you do become a different person. And it's interesting because sometimes you meet people traveling that you really, really connect with, and you're, you're just on the same wavelength. But if you go visit them in their home, sometimes the chemistry is gone, right? Because maybe you're away and you're visiting, so you're still in your travel persona, but they might be showing you their city and they're kind of back in their life. And I've heard this so many times, I mean. People that have gone to visit, other people they've met and it's like, oh, it just wasn't the same. And they were more fun when they were traveling or this and that. But sometimes the reverse is true. Sometimes a connection is a connection. I met up with someone that I hadn't seen for probably like 15 years that I met on a trip and we saw each other a couple of years ago and it was like nothing had changed and we went right back to being our silly, crazy selves that we met traveling. I think there's so many layers to

the-sober-butterfly_2_01-15-2026_180924

Right.

Melissa Rodway

and it's a very fascinating topic to be honest.

the-sober-butterfly_2_01-15-2026_180924

It's so nuanced and I've had both. Experiences where I have met someone that also, funny enough, like I don't think we would have ever crossed paths or even clicked or meshed if we were in New York. Say, where I live in real life, it's just like, oh, I probably wouldn't be friends with this person. But something about being somewhere else has us gravitate towards each other. And I do believe that people come into your life. For a season or a reason, and sometimes it's both. And then I've also had situations where I'm like, oh my God, this person is amazing. And then I've seen them outside of the context of that trip or that vacation or that travel experience, and I'm like, whoa. Like

Melissa Rodway

Yeah,

the-sober-butterfly_2_01-15-2026_180924

are off. So for whatever reason, the vibes are off. So I, I totally agree.

Melissa Rodway

Yeah, I think it's, it's very healthy, right? I think it's a, it's, people need to travel for the, what we were just talking about in that we, you're open to like so many interesting people that we just wouldn't be in normal, regular life. We ha we walk around with a lot of like defenses and judgements and. And that is the, one of the beautiful things with travel is that however long your way, we're much more open to whoever is entering our worlds than we are at home. And, and it's a shame we can't bring that back with us, but it is, the condition of being a human? I think.

the-sober-butterfly_2_01-15-2026_180924

It is the human condition. I would be curious to learn from you, Melissa, from your travels. You're well traveled, which I wanna get into specific experiences you've had or places that you've been, but from your travels, who are some of the people that have left lasting impressions on your life and for what reasons?

Melissa Rodway

Yeah, so there's a woman in my book, which is, has a similar title to the movie that you saw My book is called The People You Meet and has a great subtitle, so that sets it apart, but, there is a woman that I met, so my book, book, the story happened 15 years ago. I was 35 at the time. I'm 50, 51 now, so almost 16 years ago. And I met this woman when I was there and she was in her fifties at the time and she was so interesting. She was so well traveled. She had done and lived every life possible just was a really cool lady and. were in a very northern part of Lao in a very rural community, and we were trying to buy tickets to get on a boat to go somewhere, and she saw these two young girls who were probably 25, probably your age. You look about 25.

the-sober-butterfly_2_01-15-2026_180924

Add 10 years, Melissa.

Melissa Rodway

Oh, well, good job. You're drinking lots of water.

the-sober-butterfly_2_01-15-2026_180924

you.

Melissa Rodway

So she looked at them and she started sort of eavesdropping on their conversation and watching them, and she said, two girls need to go home. It's over. They're

the-sober-butterfly_2_01-15-2026_180924

Oh.

Melissa Rodway

And I thought, what, what are you talking about? And she said, there comes a point when you have to recognize when the trip is over, when you're on a long haul trip, right.

the-sober-butterfly_2_01-15-2026_180924

Yeah.

Melissa Rodway

So we had this really cool conversation about how, there's a lot of ego in travel, especially in backpacking. I think or in any kind of travel, you know, there's a lot of comparison. Like, who's been on the road longer? How many more months have you been here than I have? How many stamps do you have in your passport? How many countries have you done this? Have you done that? And it's a lot of it is really silly because we're all different and individual and. We have to listen to what works for us. So she taught me that at some point in a long haul trip, there will come a moment when you know that it's over and you need to listen to that moment. So that happened to me. In the story in my book, I was with my partner and he was exploring. All these or creating relationships with like, luxury hotels and tour operators. And so he was gonna be going for much longer than I was. And I was along, just along for the ride as the plus one. And so after about four months I hit the wall. I knew I was done. We were on the road like every two days on buses and trains and boats. And for as amazing as an experience as it was, it was really tiring. And I knew that I needed to go home. that that from her is something that I have implemented in my trips ever since.'cause I know I'm very prone to travel burnout after a few weeks or months. And so now I, like, I take account of that. I schedule myself properly so that I'm never away too, too long without a purpose or whatever it is that I need. But that was a really good lesson for me in, in travel, ego travel, burnout, travel. Jealousy sometimes. Like, and just knowing when to call it a day.

Nadine Mulvina - The Sober Butterfly

Wow, that is fascinating and applicable to so many areas of life. I can't help but draw parallels to my own experiences on the road, but even my journey to getting sober, this being the Sober Butterfly podcast, I can't help but to somehow connect this to sobriety, but like there was an inner voice where I knew it was time to. Come home to myself to stop drinking. I also find it fascinating because so often I find people want to travel for freedom, right? They're searching for something, whether that be within themselves or out there, but like the hierarchy that you mentioned in the comparison trap and like just chasing the PA passport stamps, like I've also found that I've done that as well to where it's like. I'm not even present. I'm not even enjoying myself, but I'm just chasing like, oh, I, I have to get to this specific number. Like I want to see as many countries as possible, but the depth of the experience becomes shallow and I'm not even enjoying myself anymore. And so I, I think that's such a valuable lesson that, as mentioned, can be applied to many areas of life because if you, if it doesn't feel good anymore. You have to like listen to that. You have to respond accordingly. And it's interesting because you also mentioned at the time you had a partner who was on the road who I'm assuming wasn't ready to come home. Is that more or less true.

Melissa Rodway

he knew like he, he had a very different, he had a more of a purpose than I

Nadine Mulvina - The Sober Butterfly

Okay.

Melissa Rodway

I think he was ready to be honest. But he had more countries, more connections, more to

the-sober-butterfly_2_01-15-2026_180924

I

Melissa Rodway

to do,'cause he was creating a business down the

Nadine Mulvina - The Sober Butterfly

see.

Melissa Rodway

But I, I can tell you that when I was leaving, he was, he was ready too. It's hard. It's a hard slog. As much as it's fun and exciting and interesting, I mean, it's not, it's not easy to be on the road like that for months on end.

the-sober-butterfly_2_01-15-2026_180924

It's very sexy to like be a nomad, especially in today's world. But it's like, yeah, like if you feel that tug, that's telling you it's time to go home, wherever home may be for you or like just find more, I guess like root. I think for me it's always a tell, tell sign when it's like I'm missing routine or I feel like I'm

Melissa Rodway

Yes.

the-sober-butterfly_2_01-15-2026_180924

just tired of not having a set routine really was. It comes down to, so that's.

Melissa Rodway

Isn't it funny that too?'cause that's the reason we

the-sober-butterfly_2_01-15-2026_180924

Yeah, I'm so sick of the routine. I'm like,

Melissa Rodway

wanna get away and then it's like, oh my gosh, I miss, I miss it. I miss like eating how I eat. I miss going to the gym. I

Nadine Mulvina - The Sober Butterfly

mm-hmm.

Melissa Rodway

normalcy is so, yeah.

the-sober-butterfly_2_01-15-2026_180924

It's the constant pull and push energy.

Melissa Rodway

Mm-hmm.

the-sober-butterfly_2_01-15-2026_180924

Something you mentioned that I find very interesting that I haven't. Really thought too much about, as someone who loves to travel, is purpose. So you mentioned having a purpose, like he had a purpose for the trip. You, I'm assuming, have had purpose for your travels. So can you explain to us a little bit a around like how people can maybe find purpose for travel or if that's what you're suggesting that we should do? Because I think so often. It makes sense to me. Yeah, you should have a purpose in mind, but like for whatever reason, that's not something I consider. It's usually just like, oh, I'm curious. I'm a curious person. What's over there? And then what's over there and oh, what else can I tie to this trip to continue it, you know, even longer.

Melissa Rodway

Yeah, it's a really interesting discussion this, because I had never thought about it either until this trip when I was 35. So he and I. Had

the-sober-butterfly_2_01-15-2026_180924

I.

Melissa Rodway

dating for four years before this trip. He was from England. I'm from Canada. We met in Cuba on a cycling trip and then, it was cool. And then we just met up randomly around the world for a couple of years and then he moved to Canada. but when you go on a long haul trip for many months with one person who has a goal and a purpose and a. A reason to be there. And then you're the person who's kind of the ladi da. Aren't I

the-sober-butterfly_2_01-15-2026_180924

Yeah.

Melissa Rodway

reap the rewards of this, but really like, I've got nothing going on. That's a really interesting dynamic that we had not ever thought about, or we didn't really, we didn't know. You don't know what you don't know,

the-sober-butterfly_2_01-15-2026_180924

Mm-hmm.

Melissa Rodway

So me I started getting a bit restless.

the-sober-butterfly_2_01-08-2025_164227

And now a quick word from our partners.

Nadine Mulvina - The Sober Butterfly

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the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

We're back.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

I was just kind of hanging out and that's fun for a few weeks. But'cause I'm also a curious person and I love adventures and I actually really love the like, go, go, go every two days that, that kind of suits me. But my mind started to get a little bit restless. Right? so this is 2010, so there's not a lot of well there isn't, we didn't have phones or anything like that, so. would be on these long buses and trains for 18 hours, sometimes 36 hours. And I was starting to create these stories in my head of what we were seeing and doing and the people and how I was feeling. And like humor quite a bit. So it was funny. And so then once a week I would go to an internet cafe or a hotel with a in it. I mean, that might be foreign to you, but that's how the world used to work.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Well, I.

Melissa Rodway

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. so anyway, so I started doing that once a week and this like massive story would come out I was sending it home to friends and family and they were starting to email, forwarding these emails to their friends and family. People loved it. They thought it was fun and funny and interesting and they were learning about that part of the world and hearing about my adventures. And that started feeding me and giving me a job and me purpose. And if I was smart, I would've just had a blog and I'd probably be talking to you from somewhere else right now, but that's a different story. So I think that also on that trip taught me that I was no longer, and maybe it was my age, I was 35 and maybe the days of just kind of like around and hanging out were kind of over for me. I needed more.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Yeah.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

so now my trips are a lot different. Like it doesn't have to be something you're not saving the world. It can be for me now, it's like I need to do active trips. I

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Yeah.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

I sit around a lot because of my desk job, so I wanna hike and cycle and paddle. And be outside. That's what I want. That's my

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Yeah.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

Now when I go away and like you were talking about earlier, I used to drink quite a bit back in the day. I don't now. And, and when I'm away, I'm getting up early. I'm hiking all day long and I'm in bed by eight. And doing it again the next day. It's like that simple life

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Yeah.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

really appealing. So that's one thing, and that's what I do. But there's a million things now for people to do. Like, I was talking to someone about this today where a per'cause they were like, oh, so you think people should, find like a really good organization that's saving animals or whatever? And it's like, not necessarily I, I don't necessarily wanna do

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Right.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

that's like, I

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Doesn't have to be a service trip

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

Yeah, and it's like sometimes maybe your purpose is like just going to meet some locals in a community and like, working at an inn for a week, I don't know who cares?

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

I

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

just for me, what I learned as I got older was that there had to be more than just like the usual, like backpacking and hanging out and going from town to town and finding what there is to do there and moving on. I still love that,

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Right.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

I need something else.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

I, I feel similar. So before getting sober, my, my trips, I barely remembered because I would be blackout half the time. And then even in getting sober, it started to feel redundant. It was just like, okay, a pretty landscape, pretty landscape. But I think more recently I took an active trip myself. I went to Peru this past summer and I did the Salkantay. With a girlfriend, and that was such a magical experience. I'm not a hiker, that was a challenge. But the challenge fueled me. It gave me purpose. And I, I hadn't thought about it until you said that. I was like, okay, well, I, I am more intentional, I think now around where I'm going and why I am going as opposed to just, oh, that looks pretty over there. Because there are beautiful places all over the world. There are beautiful places in my backyard. You know, like, I think it feels good to know that like I get to do something different. I think it can be self-serving. I don't think I necessarily need to serve others. It's nice to meet other people and like if I can help in the process or find something to do to, you know, add a layer of, I don't know, a layer of. Good in the world, like even better. But I think sometimes just like feeling good, permeates into other aspects of life and like that will be paid forward in other ways. Like it doesn't necessarily have to be like me in the trenches building a house. I.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

No, and sometimes those, those projects. Actually cause more harm than good. You have to be very careful with those projects. But there's a guy in Toronto, I don't know if you've heard of G Adventures, but it was started by a Canadian guy who's, he's from Calgary, but he lives in Toronto he talks about that all the time. That just going to a place and spending your money in like guest houses and local restaurants, that's enough like that you're actually helping. Those communities by just being there and by buying something and, you know, interacting with locals and, having a guide on a hike that you're now tipping and paying that is a contribution,

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Right.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

we, we always think it has to be these grandiose nio situations. And I, I don't think that that's. At all. True. And again, and then you're coming home and you're, you're spreading the word about how amazing Peru is. And the more that we can tell that story and how that people around the world we're pretty much all the same. I mean, it's, you know, we're all born into different situations, but we're all looking for the same things. And the more that we can share that and experience that and tell everyone, maybe the nicer we can get in this world, which is struggling. the moment.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Very much so. I wanna sort of shift gears and learn more about your why and your intention behind. Your book because I think it is so powerful and it captures something deeply human about travel, which is everything we've been talking about, like the individual experiences we have that make up the collective. What inspired you, because I know you touched on this like you were traveling, kind of feeling restless and you felt you had purpose. When you started to capture some of the stories from your trips, was that the inception of your inspiration for your book? Can you talk to us a little bit around that?

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

So, I didn't know I if I would do anything with these emails, but when people react to something and I wasn't looking for that, but I did get reactions and responses and, know, you have to pay attention to that when like your friends and family are. It's not just them

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Yeah.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

they're now passing it on to strangers and you're like, okay, so there's something here. And I had a moment where when I left after four months, I was like, maybe I have enough to put in a book if I one day wanted to do that. But it took me 15 years, you know, I revisited a few of these emails when I got home, and then I was kind of in and out of it for obviously for years. Right. I would revisit it, then I would put it aside. And that went on and on and on. And then what happened is in 2023, I took a year off and I did some travels, and one thing always leads to the next, right? So I took a year off, which you travel by yourself or with a group or whatever, it gives you courage again,

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Yeah,

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

And then, yeah, so after that, I came home and then I did a standup comedy course for a couple months. So I did a set doing that. And then that fuels you again. And then that got me sparked to like revisit this book. And I was like, okay, I'm on a roll here. And it was always there. I always was like, I have this story that I feel like I need to tell. And if not now, then when. And it was time. So I mean the books is really great if people like to travel, but even if you don't like to travel, there's a lot in there that, I think people get something out of, like, I've had people come up to me that have never been anywhere and they love it'cause it's a great armchair adventure and it feels like they're with me. That's my style. That's how I, I write. But I think it's also just very human. It's a very human book. It's me, I'm very honest. I don't pull any punches about how I feel about where I'm at in my life and my relationship and my questions and so. I think you never know when you do something like that what's gonna come back to you. But it's very interesting, the people that have come up to me since and just said, I relate to this. No one's ever talked to me about what it's like to be 35 before

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Yeah.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

woman who doesn't have kids and didn't want them, and you know, all that kind

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Yeah.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

right? Like, we don't all have to follow the same patterns. So there's a bit of that in the book as well.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

I love that. When you reference emails, were these emails from you to people that you had met along the way or to friends and family from back home that you were updating around, like your experiences? The latter.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

Yes.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

That's amazing.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

only that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Friends, colleagues, like anyone and everyone I'd ever met, to be honest. No within reason, but I sent it far and wide and I don't know why I did that. I just felt the need to do it. And

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

purpose was calling you.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

I guess so.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

incredible. What's one of your favorite moments from the book? Or what's something that like just pops into your head immediately? I know you mentioned, the woman that reminded you. Like when it's time to call it, if you don't feel like the travel is nourishing you, is there someone else that comes to mind that conjures into your mind when you think about like, oh my God, this person was. Unforgettable. This moment was unforgettable or even an unforgettable place that you visited.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

Well, certainly, I mean, there, that's a beautiful part of the world indeed. But you know, it's, that's the thing about travel is as much as we love a country, it's always the people that that experience.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Absolutely.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

anyway, but I think for most, but yes, I met this in the food. Yeah, I met this awesome woman. Well, she was a real character and when you read the book you'll learn about her. So I won't tell you too much. But I think for me, the people that get into my nervous system the most are older people. When you travel. on this trip we ran into this woman who was 70 and she was traveling alone through India, through China,

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

wow.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

Southeast Asia. Yeah. And these are not easy countries to travel by herself, especially India. And China's tough. And so right off the bat, when you meet someone like that, they're a legend, you know? And.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Absolutely.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

They, they get a lot of respect. However, outside of that, she was also like the most eccentric person I'd ever met. And just wildly like off the charts in terms of not knowing what she'd say next and the conversations you'd have with her. Oh,

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Oh.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

was crazy. Yeah. Amazing. But and sometimes a bit annoying. Like she wasn't, it wasn't all wonderful hanging out with her, but. She just had this courage

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Mm-hmm.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

so what we were with her for a few days, probably a day longer than anyone needed to be, but but she would also, like, she was just so like unapologetic and we ended up going into like remote villages with her that we probably never would've gone to because

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Wow.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

oh, we shouldn't be here, or we're impeding on their. Privacy or whatever, and she was like, no, we're going. I wanna meet them. all these villagers that we met were so receptive to her, and we ended up having the most amazing day with these strangers. And so, I mean, it's just, it's what we were talking about earlier. You know, you never know who's coming across your path and. have to try not to prejudge what you see because you just don't know

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Absolutely not.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

gonna offer you. And I mean, you have to keep your head on your shoulders for sure. Not everyone is the right person to be spending time with, but people are fascinating, you know.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Without divulging too much. Was this woman was a part of her story that she had waited to travel and that's why she was older? Or was she just an avid traveler throughout her life?

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

She was an avid traveler and at that point she was retired and was just like, that was, this was her life. Like she hadn't been home in probably two years and was just doing it all, you know, and just a permanent nomad at that point.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

That's amazing.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

It is. And then in 2023, I was in Bolivia and I met this doctor who was from Australia. He was in his eighties and like, had a backpack on

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Wow.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

was doing some really hard trips. And like we spent, I was on my own, but I had met up with some travelers. We were with him for like four days. And another legend, right? So never too late to have adventures.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

never too late and it, I also think it's never too early because that same Peru ti trek five days hardest thing I've ever done. Truly and I've run a marathon like so hard. There was a one-year-old baby on that trip and like that for me is like, will she remember that? Maybe her conscious mind won't, but like maybe her subconscious will. By the way, the tour guy was like, don't recommend bringing your 1-year-old. Across Andes. But I had asked that question because I think so often people wait, they think that time is limitless and like people wait until they retire and like, I'm gonna travel. Then one of the greatest returns for me has been spending my money. On travel because of the richness of the quality of my life and what I've learned from the experiences and the people I've met along the way. So that's why I was asking that question, because I'm like, I wonder if she just waited, but it sounds like she's seasoned, which makes sense, especially this as you guys were in.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

you are so right though. I mean, we, I think when we're young, we think that there's a lot of time and it goes really, really

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Mm-hmm.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

And the other thing is we don't know. You know, when I was, 49. So yeah, I took that year off from work and I traveled, I got injured twice.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Wow.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

injuries are not fun as you get older. And so that's the other thing, like people who wait until they're retired, you have no idea what your health will be

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Yep.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

or if you can do some of these

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Mm-hmm.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

have to do them while you wanna do them.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Absolutely. I, I agree. That's why I travel every chance I get. And I will have to ask you for some recommendations. I'm going to Dubai in a couple weeks, so I, I dunno if you've been there. Okay. That's probably one of the few places you haven't gone.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

Oh no, I've not been to lots of places, but no, Dubai. I've never been there.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Well, I'll, I'll let you know how it is. I've never been either. I'll let you know. They say it's like a glass castle in the desert or something like that, so I dunno. I would love to sort of wind down a little bit with you, Melissa, and play, a rapid fire game. Is that cool?

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

Yeah.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Okay, this is like your game. It's rapid fire, the people you meet. And I just want you to think of the first thing that comes to mind. There's no overthinking, no wrong answer. Are you ready?

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

Mm-hmm.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Okay. So a place that changed you more than you expected.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

Jordan,

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Ooh,

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

guess you need to know why.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

yes. Please tell me.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

Well, Jordan I went to right before the pandemic. I mean, who knew the pandemic was coming. It was days before the world shut down

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

March, 2020.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

yes, and I think I got home on March 7th and my mom actually died like two days

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Oh,

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

was sick anyway,

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

oh wow.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

it, but that was a really interesting place. It was a blessing.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Did you get to see her? Sorry to cut you off.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

did, I did,

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Okay.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

but it was a really interesting time because I was in the desert in Wadi rum. And, and that's a I don't know if you've been there, but you

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

No. Okay. I'm going.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

And there was a landscape that kept like drawing me in to like, just a, a, a certain view. Like I couldn't stop walking away from. From this particular landscape. So people were like behind me having tea and having a fire and whatever, and I just, I couldn't go there. I had to keep looking at this particular, like, part of the desert,

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Wow.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

I, I kind of knew, I think that my mom was going, I, I flew home. I was supposed to fly home like a day or two later, and then. And, sorry, I'm not trying to bring your podcast down, but,

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

no, no.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

I think things like that are really fascinating,

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Yes.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

Like this was a blessing, so it wasn't a tragedy at all. She'd been quite sick. But I think that the, the universe is very interesting in like, sort of the messages that it can send you or like when it's like saying some something's happening and you're like,'cause I think if you travel, you are kind of dialed into, feelings and perceptive and you're a little bit more in tune with the universe than others, perhaps. And I just think it's, very, very interesting. And every time I'm in a desert, I was in a desert again and two years ago, three years ago, and I never feel like the desert is my place. I appreciate it and I like to see it, but there's always something that says, this isn't you, Melissa.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Mm-hmm.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

it, but like you're a mountain person and I don't know. So, so I just, I find experiences like that really, really interesting. And aside from all that, Jordan is very the people are so incredibly generous and the food is amazing, and I think it was just very different from anywhere I'd been before. So there was something about that trip that just really like got into my spirit and my soul. I loved it.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Wow. Now I have a follow up question. This is not on my question questions, but why were you called to Jordan? I'm just curious'cause I also believe in listening to signs from the universe. Why did you go to Jordan?

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

great question. I have no idea. I just sometimes countries pick me sometimes and I know that sounds okay. So you get it.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

I'm, I'm dialed in with you. Yeah.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

And it's really fun, right? Like same thing happened to me with Nepal. I, I had never thought about it and all of a sudden I found myself going to Nepal. Sometimes I know where I wanna go, but I think it's way more fun to feel the urge that you're supposed to go somewhere.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

I love that. And then you went and you had that like sign,

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

Yeah.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

and then you went home and you were able to see your mom before she transitioned. That's beautiful.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

Yeah, it was really beautiful.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

I love that. Okay, my second rapid fire question for you. I think you touched on this, but a stranger, you still think about this is rapid fire, so it's the first person that comes to mind,

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

Oh my goodness. Well you, if you read the book, you'll that probably that person is the person, the main character in the book, and I'm gonna leave it at that. But

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

oh,

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

the person I met in

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

is

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

and we like traveled a lot, a lot, a lot.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

this your ex?

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

well you have to read the book, but I learned so much about traveling from him and and the world and'cause traveling, like, it's funny'cause it doesn't matter how much you do it, you're still learning. I'm a terrible traveler. I love it and I'm a very adventurous, but I don't do anything properly and I'm still learning all the time. I think like people always look at you going, oh. You must know all the tips and tricks is like no, I have

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

A how to episode. This is just us sharing in case you were, but I don't think there is a how to.'cause everyone's so different, right? Like you traveled. How it suits you, even if it's not the most conventional way. Like, you know, we're not gonna give you deals on how to like book the best flights or tips around that. Like, it's just like, do what works for you. And the only way to know what works for you is through experience, right? Like traveling, actually getting out there.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

Yeah. And I think like certainly yeah, we all like learn like things about like I have like certain things that I bring with me or things that I do, and yes, we get better with those things over time, but. Last year I totally screwed up with currency in, in Columbia. That was really embarrassing for someone who's been to so many countries and it's like, I, I do this stuff all the time. I'm no different than anybody else. Right.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Mm-hmm.

melissa_3_01-15-2026_182755

just being human.

the-sober-butterfly_3_01-15-2026_182755

Absolutely.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

a few more for you, Melissa. A place that feels like home or felt, I'm sorry, like home. Immediately

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Oh, this is one of my favorites. So, um, Mexico for sure, and anywhere. Spanish speaking. I love, um, um, not very well, but I love it.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

you understood the

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Yeah. Yeah. Well, yes, I've been to the countries enough. I should, but yeah, Latin America, central America, south America, Mexico. Love, love, love it. Feel like, I fit in there even though I don't look like I do. Um. Yeah, totally. But you know, that's a really fascinating conversation. So I'm not doing this very well in terms of rapid fire, but you're just sparking a lot of things for me. Um, I had a podcast for many years, or a radio show and someone on my show came on once and we talked about past lives and we talked about that why you go some places and the second you get off the airplane, you're like, oh my God, I'm home.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

Exhale.

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

other times you don't. And you don't even know why. And we, he really loves that topic. And just said a long story short, it's because either in your past life, if you don't feel like you fit in, it's because you haven't spent enough time there or something terrible happened to you.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

Oh,

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

But super interesting that, but yeah, those are my, that's my favorite part of the world.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

Can agree with Mexico. I felt called to Mexico. I

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Yeah.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

love with Mexico City. I stayed there for a year.

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Oh, cool.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

Yeah, that felt like home and I, I probably did live there in a past life and I probably lived a great life in the past life there.

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

I bet.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

but that's interesting. The past lives

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Yep.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

there have been some places I've gone to and I'm like, eh, dunno if I wanna be here or go here again.

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

A million percent. Yeah. And even like my book is about Southeast Asia and um, Southeast Asia is beautiful and most people love Thailand and Vietnam and all those countries, and I really enjoyed them too. But I didn't have the same feeling there that I've had in other places. I can still think it's great and beautiful and wonderful, but I didn't, I didn't feel like I'd had a past life there.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

Yeah, that's, that's beautifully said. Understood. It was nice. Great for the aesthetics.

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Yeah.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

I'll send you a postcard, but like I

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Yeah. I don't need to go back. Yeah.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

Yeah. that. a great response. Yeah. I didn't have a past life here guys, or something terrible happened to me in the past year. Um, okay, two more questions for you. The hardest part of coming home after a long trip.

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Well, I hate coming home, to be honest. So that probably doesn't say anything good about my life at home, which is totally fine, but it's very hard. I love being away. It's really, really fun. Um, I think the hardest part is just, you know, going back to, even though sometimes you crave routine, like after day two, you're like, oh my God, this is so boring. And, um mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think sometimes when you've met really fun, interesting people, as much as you love the people in your regular life, they're not as sparkly, you know, as meeting new people that you share massive adventures with. That's a challenge.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

yeah. Agreed. I also feel that when I come home, I, I get into this almost like this depressive slump where I immediately have to start thinking about my next. Trip because if I don't have a trip in the works, I feel dead inside. Like that's very extreme.

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

No, I'm the same.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

I, I, I have to like, even if it's not immediately, like in the foreseeable future, usually it is though. Like, I'm like, I have to, I have to figure out where I'm going because otherwise life just feels bleak and I know it's extreme, but

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

No, I get it. Well, and you live in New York City and I live in Toronto, so sometimes the hardest trips are when you've been in the mountains or somewhere outside a lot. And then, you know, you get home so fast now. I mean, planes like a plane ride. Well, some of them are terrible, but. Literally in less than 24 hours you've gone from the mountains back into an airport and now you're on a, a, a subway and a street car and all these awful things. I find that that's a real shock to my nervous system and it makes me very, like I've cried many tears in on the way home from the airport.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

Yeah, I think that I always enjoy the, like the, the view in the plane. Like,

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Yeah.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

sparkly and then I get here and I'm

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Yeah.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

everyone is so in their own bubble or like in their own bubble. Like it just doesn't

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Uh,

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

Anyone cares about anyone else

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

no.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

what's going on in their own personal

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Yeah.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

Yeah. okay. My final rapid fire question for you, Melissa,

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Hmm.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

is this one does not have to be rapid fire. You can think about it, but if travel could lead people with one lesson, what would you hope it is?

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Um, so. My hope is that people are kinder to each other. I think that that's really the main reason we should do it. We should do it to, to meet new people and to expand our horizons with people, and to learn from them, to laugh with them, to have an experience with them. And, um, I think when you go to countries that have lower socioeconomic stability and areas we see that they're happier than we are

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

Mm-hmm.

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

and, um, are happier with just existing sometimes, right? Like, it's that simple life and we, we always want more and more and more, and nothing's good enough, and then we get what we think we want and then that's not enough. And um, I don't think that North America or Western countries really know what they're doing because they don't, they have more, but they seem we're not that happy. And you go to these countries and they're all helping each other and they live in communities and everyone has a job and a purpose. And I'm not saying that they don't have their issues as well. Of course they do, but I just feel like. There's a lot to learn from other countries and cultures and people, and we don't know everything, and we might not have it all figured out.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

Yeah. And as much as we have like access, in North America, we tend to make more money and so we have more opportunities to actually travel. Travel and explore. I think we're still so insulated in our understanding of the world, and I think for me, what I've learned through my travels is that yes, we are very different. Like we are also very different. But yeah, we're not really that different and I think that's, that's like the key, the irony for me is kind of like, yeah, like I meet all these people. They may speak a different language, they may have different customs, but for the most part, if you're a good person and you make eye contact and you smile, I know some places. Whatever they have different formalities and different mannerisms, but for the most part, like people are receptive and curious to learning about you. And if you show them that same respect, then they will be welcoming. yeah, we're different, but we're kind of not, we're kind of the same.

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Yeah. Um, I've told this story a few times, but on my radio show many, many years ago, I had this guy on my show who cycled home on a bike from China to Canada. Through like 30 or 40. Yeah. He had to take one plane, obviously.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

like, I didn't even know you could do that.

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Yeah. So he did it and he went through some countries that would scare many of us because of what we see on the news. But his book was called The Power of Saying Hello, and it's a great book because it's, it's about exactly what you just said and. All he did was smile and say hello to people in countries where he did not know the language in countries where the news would terrify you to go to a place like that.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

Mm-hmm.

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

and they were the nicest people to him. Took him in, gave him food, probably helped him get on his way with equipment and clothes or whatever he needed. Gave him a roof over his head, and his stories are just phenomenal. Of places that the rest of us would be like, oh, I can't believe that you went there. And it was all just by smiling and nodding and, and being open to people and saying hello. So there's such a good message in that.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

I love that because honestly, energy is like universal, like it doesn't need to be translated. Like you can feel someone's energy if it's pure and genuine. Like people receive that and will also extend that. Usually I find,

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Yes.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

to believe in the good of humanity

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

You have to,

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

Yeah.

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

yeah.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

it's like, oh, what's the point?

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Agreed. Yeah.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

This has been such a joy. Melissa, I cannot wait to read your book. Where can we find your book? cannot wait.

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

I,

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

Let

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

oh, thank you. Um. I guess the best place is Amazon, so it's called the people you Meet and look up My last, or my name, Melissa Rodway.'cause as we talked about, there's other books with that title.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

get the subtitle as well?

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Yes, yes, yes.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

mean? Yes.

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

The subtitle is Luxury, leeches Love, and Lao Lao with the host of interesting characters in Southeast Asia.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

That's a mouthful. I love it. I love literation. Like that's amazing. Like what is this book about Leaches love, like

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Yeah.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

the things. I'm la la Okay. I'm excited.

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Good. Yeah, you'll love it. It's really fun. It's really easy. It's a fast, quick read, but, um, if you, if you like to travel and have you been to that part of the world, I.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

I've been to Southeast Asia. I've not been to Lao. I've been to like t the the big players. When I say big players like Thailand, Vietnam, I've gone to like those Japan, things like that.

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Okay, so you will get a kick out of it'cause you've been there, but even if you have

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

which is kind of closer to Lao. That's the probably the closest I've gotten. Yeah.

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

yeah, yeah. Cambodia is awesome. It was my favorite country of that area. Um,

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

That's a country that I actually didn't feel very good in.

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

um.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

so maybe something bad happened to me, but I also feel like there's just remnants of like their genocide, but maybe it was also my experience because it was right after COVID so like there was a lot happening. But like with in Pinon Pen, like the number one attraction is the killing fields. Like

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Yeah,

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

it was just like heavy. But sorry,

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

totally. No, no, no. I, I get it. I get it. Um. Uh, that all those countries, Lao as well, has suffered Vietnam, of course, like the, all of them, and I know what you mean, and I write about that in the book as well, that after a while I was ward out, like I couldn't hear about it anymore. And you, you do see a lot when you travel around those countries and it, it, after a while does start impacting your, your nervous system. And um, so I totally understand that. But yeah, I get it.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

I have not been to Lao and I've heard incredible things, so

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Yeah,

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

add that to my 26 travel bucket list. It's not a vacation sometimes when you go to places like this,

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

no,

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

also their real history and their lived experience. So like I, I was receptive to hearing it, but I was also like damn

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

yeah,

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

depressing.

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

it is depressing. Um, I think, yeah, for me, I had a friend who was from Cambodia and he was born at that time of, of that history. He was born in 1977, so. Maybe that changed everything, but I just found the people in Cambodia to be very funny and magical. But you know what? Everyone's different. So let's see how you feel in Lao.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

Okay. so excited. Um, butterflies. I'm gonna drop Melissa's book, the people you meet in the show notes. So make sure you check that

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

I,

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

Melissa, this has been such an honor to have you on the Sober Butterfly. You were welcome to come back.

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

oh.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

we can have like, I feel like we can take this in so many different directions. This is just like touching the surface because there's so much nuance to travel and I just find that everyone should travel.

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Yeah.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

if you wanna come back on, we can have a part two conversation around that as well.

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Okay. You're on. I would love to. Well, thank you so much. I really enjoyed our chat as well. You're a great, host and you have beautiful energy, so thank you.

the-sober-butterfly_4_01-15-2026_184958

You appreciate you. Thank you.

melissa_4_01-15-2026_184958

Thank you.

the-sober-butterfly_27_01-08-2026_074250

before you go, if you haven't already done so, please do me a solid and leave a five star review for this podcast. It really helps. The podcast Grow so that more butterflies can find this podcast. Love you guys and see you next Friday.