Psyched to Practice

Practice in Action: Temperament-al Tendencies

Dr. Ray Christner and Paul Wagner Season 1 Episode 77

Join Ray Christner and Paul Wagner on the latest episode of the Psych to Practice podcast as they delve into a fascinating blend of developmental psychology, temperament, and parenting. Discover how early temperament can influence neurodiversity, anxiety, and coping skills in children. Tune in  for practical tips on nurturing your child's development and well-being!

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Hey everyone, welcome to the Psych to Practice podcast. Your one stop for practical and useful clinical information. Masterful insights from experts in the field and a guide to Daily Living. I'm Ray Christner and with me all Wagner and today Paul a practice in action episode that's kind of going to blend a little developmental psychology, developmental psychopathology and maybe parenting. Yeah. So a lot to cover. And, you know, I think it's something that, oh, I should introduce the topic. So today we're talking about temperament and you know, so something that I think is commonly covered in a lot of those, you know, developmental courses and something that can be really helpful if we can. And I spend some time familiarizing ourself and trying to make it applicable. Yeah, you know, I think it's it was interesting. I mean, I so to give maybe the audience a little kind of a background on it really. So I wanted to really kind of do this topic was really following developmental psychopathology research that's out there that I think many of us probably in the field and I'm sure most parents aren't picking up journals about developmental psychopathology, but such great research that's happening around understanding how temperament might influence later difficulties. So things like, you know, neurodiversity is like ADHD and autism or even things like anxiety and depression, that there are some signs that we can kind of see in early ages that I don't want to say are necessarily a predictor, but maybe present some risk factors or some some red flags to some extent for us to monitor and maybe respond differently to to help build coping skills for kids. You know, and, you know, I think we've all anybodies in the field has had a developmental psychology class. And you probably are familiar with Alexander Thomas and Stella Chess, his work on on temperament. And essentially that, you know, there's these nine traits that develop kind of our behavioral and emotional response style. I mean, so that's essentially what it is. But now we're learning again kind of more about how do we use that and understand kids where maybe as professionals we can consult better with parents to help them tailor their parenting style for the benefit of the child in a much more supportive way, but also in a way to, again, kind of help that that development of coping for areas that might be more difficult for. And you know, I think one of the initial reactions that it's not uncommon is that, you know, with temperament really being recognized as a bit more of like a biological or genetic component. You know, this idea of like, oh, well, it's just a, you know, a part of who the child is. And, you know, we were talking earlier about this like kind of view of it, of these different, you know, traits as being a spectrum and kind of identifying, you know, where you're, you know, where the child might fall on that spectrum. That doesn't mean, you know, through some of these interventions and through, you know, creating maybe some, you know, almost intentional opportunities, we can create more adaptability and more resilience. You know, and I don't think resilience is ever a bad thing to help cultivate in our children. Yeah, I agree. And I think that, you know, when I started reading a lot of the research, you know, I see my own parenting traps that I got into, you know, where sometimes our kids do respond in a certain way because of this temperament and maybe we become accommodating to that, which I don't necessarily is just saying that's a bad thing, but maybe we overly accommodate to it or we don't kind of stretch their skills along that spectrum. And, you know, I think that knowing this information, it it gives us a chance to do both. I mean, I think that there's there's no right or wrong. There's kind of like how do we support and accommodate at times, but how do we also continually stretch our child's skills that maybe their temperament isn't at a point where it's so extreme over time? So yeah, I think it's kind of an interesting topic that I think, again, I, you know, I took developmental psychology twice throughout my education. I don't know that I think about it all the time now. And certainly the areas in which I do think about it like I don't think it necessarily comes up when we're talking about, well, I does with parenting styles, but kind of in more specific like attachment ways rather than temperament. And so I'm happy to take this opportunity as so I think maybe let's, let's kind of go through and talk about these temperament traits. So just again, for the audience, for this Thomas and chess research that again, maybe you're familiar with really identified these these nine traits that we all have. We all have these nine traits. But within them there are these ranges of how we may respond to each of those traits. So maybe let's talk about each one and then. Ask twofold maybe how we can parent, but also what are some of the risks that we see. So you want to start with the first one, Paul. Yeah. So the first one we have here is activity. And so really kind of thinking of that as kind of the general energy level or even just amount of like physical movement that our child would typically display and kind of that kind of noted ranges on the upper And thinking of that, as you know, our more energetic children and that lower end range being more of our like more sedentary, you know, again, thinking about. Clients I work with, I can certainly see different traits coming out. You know, the ones who know how to keep things contained or else we're going to be disrupting the sessions on either end because things are going flying or, you know, the end of the ones that were starting down. And just kind of like that level of openness, interactivity. And so I know a lot of this is focusing even like younger childhood. But now just again, as those traits kind of manifest and are presented as as they develop. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the you know, this is something that we're going to see early in childhood. And I think when we think about this idea of activity, you know, we think of hyperactive. Right. That's the thing that kind of pops out the most. But, you know, there are kids that are just more energetic. That doesn't mean that it's it's a it's necessarily a symptom of something. It's just kind of that that range. So, I mean, I think, you know, as a parent, we again, we kind of think like balancing like so what do we think of when we're, you know if we're working with parents and they say, gosh, my kid has all this energy, this activity level, maybe they're on that energetic side. You know, it it's making sure things like we have movement breaks for kids that we, you know, make sure that we, again, kind of support that in some ways. Like, it's great. I mean, there's nothing better than watching young kids run around and be active. I think that's a great thing. But there also has to be a balance to that. And I think also those things where, you know, there are some times we have to have them sit and concentrate for a little bit of time and maybe at a young age that might only be two or 3 minutes. Yeah but encouraging parents where but that we do have that time for them to do something calming and that's not always easy so I don't want it to sound like, you know, we're going to say, oh, just, just sit them down and give them crayons and they're going to color. But, you know, it might be something being creative where maybe we have a table outside that we put sand on and let the kids build something in the sand, that there's still some movement, but there's still that idea that that they're they're sitting for a certain moment of time. So trying to to get that balance, you know, with everything, you know, as kids get older, what are we going to expect them to do? They're going to be in a classroom. And some kids, we can do all those interventions and they're still going to be very energetic and worth, you know, standing at the yeah, yeah, they're going to still do it. But again, it's not it's not trying to eliminate it in them. It's trying to give them more tolerance to be able to sit for for longer periods of time. You know, I encourage parents that come in with young kids. If they start with 2 minutes and if they sit for 2 minutes and do something that's great and you're reading a book to them, whatever it is, and do that for a while and try to get to two and a half minutes. And you were just going to kind of gradually build their tolerance to sitting. And along those lines, I think not only the duration, but the intensity. And so what's the level of intensity of physical movement? And if we can even reduce that, you know, going from this full body need for movement versus we focus that movement on one area and but I remember reading an article and it was actually, you know, trying to do some research to help advocate for my clients where they really wanted to be able to use a fidget because they had been they'd had experience growing up with being able to use a fidget as a means of like just some physical activity and physical movement that helped to keep them also in a single area. And so I'm like, well, let's take a take a look. And so, you know, I think even in that like, you know, that I think are really young kids fidget can maybe be more of a projectile than a tool. But being able to introduce some of these things as tools, you know, I'm thinking of the balls that are used as seats. And so, okay, the intensity we're now not standing, but we're rolling around and then, you know, the wobble seats and then, you know, eventually can we transfer that to, you know, maybe it's more like, you know, of like restless leg movement or even some of the other more functional, like if it's fidget spinners or things like that, something to manipulate in giving some of that and, you know, physical release without there having to be the full body movement. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's I think there's a lot of different ways. And, you know, I when I talk with parents, I oftentimes don't use terms like energetic and sedentary, you know. So I always say, you know, our kids should be a balance of being movers and thinkers like that's that's really what we're trying to do. And at times we do want them to just be able to minimize the movement and again, maybe have some outlet, but try to find some functional ways to do that. And at times let them move like crazy. Absolutely. And let them just. And that's okay, too. Like we really want to see kids be able to have that balance. And some it's they're going to fall right in the middle. On others, they may lean one way or the other, and that's okay. It's just trying to build that balance between the two. So and you know, the second one, I guess, maybe we're going to go through is this idea of regularity or is sometimes I think people need my voice. Also heard is with Ms.. City. Yeah that's what it is. The three word. Yeah. So that's you know, so essentially that it is. This kind of piece that's biological around biological functions a lot of times around things like appetite and sleep. So, you know, these are those children that have specific patterns that they get into. And there's kind of that. Those kind of two spectrums of that range, predictability on one side and variability on the other. And so, you know, we have these kids that need regular patterns. They thrive on routine. I call them Clockwork Kids. And then on the other end, kids that are really unpredictable in their behaviors, which I refer to as free flow kids. So, you know, both a need for structure or complete unstructured and again, developing a tolerance for, you know, some of that opposing side. And so, you know, for our kids that are, you know, lean more into that predictable are not always maybe going to be able to accommodate bathroom breaks at the same time or meals at the same time or even, you know, as much as parents, we want to help support, you know, bedtime routines and structure. Sometimes that's not going to happen. And so being able to have some of that, you know, variability on the other side of that, though, for our children that are, you know, very regular, you know, the free flow working to introduce again, maybe even a range. And so if it's not a specific time, we work to create like a greater range in terms of like in paring it down until there's an ability to, you know, to manage some sort of pattern or routine, you know, promote stability for them in these areas. Yeah. And I find this one really interesting because it is there is such a biological aspect here. Right. You know, it's and it's from a parenting standpoint. There are some real benefits to moving to a higher level of regularity where especially around sleep and eat eating. You know, we know that the you know, we know from research, right? It's kids who have good sleep routines, have healthier lifestyles. It's there's long term benefits to it. So starting kids really young at going to bed at a specific time, waking up at the same time, all of those things have really good benefits. And even with eating, you know, getting kids on, you know, we're eating breakfast, we're eating lunch. We have maybe specific snack times. Those are all really good things. But I think that a lot of times what I see is sometimes parents don't throw curveballs enough at their kids with it, you know? And I remember, like when my my kids were little, I mean, they're adults now. You know, every once in a while we would just do something a little later in the night, like we would break that routine. And yeah, they were cranky, you know, they were they got turned off. But it gave us a little way to to help them adapt to it. And, you know, it's interesting, my kids now, even as adults, they have a pretty steady sleep routine. So it but they need to stay up. They're also not, you know. Out of control about it. They're able to manage it and. You know, if we're thinking about like this, even like. I think. Even driving, you know, if I'm driving a long distance and from the backseat, you know, I'm hungry. Like, hey, like depending on where we're at, are we stopping and accommodating to that in this moment? Or is it like, hey, can you wait 20, 30 minutes for us to get home when we already have like food? And so, you know, in that sense, like, can we work to create some more flexibility on the other end, though, you know, hey, if we're working to build patterns, maybe we are working to like, you know, stop and where we can to get, you know, because, hey, we're acknowledging that there's that hunger. We're working to then have it within this routine or, hey, this is your opportunity if you want, you know, if you want a snack, now's the time. If not more, wait until the next time. So yeah, like offering some of those. Yeah. Variance in both and I think that's a really valuable and and if there are different difficulties. Balancing that variance, helping kids build executive function skills around. So I have many patients I see that that. Their hunger level truly is the Snickers commercial. Right. It's they get hangry, right? It's they and and it's just part of who they are. And so for them, those are the kids, at least, you know, in teenage years where the parents have got them to a point of saying, hey, look, I carry a protein bar with me, like I need to have that. And because if I get that way and I need that that regularity, I, I've thought a lot in advance of it and I've prepared and that's great. So sometimes maybe we're not the people that can. Not eat for a whole afternoon. That's okay. But it's being aware of it and being able to again kind of accommodate that. That can be be helpful and you know, kind of going into this next area or this next trait is labeled as initial reaction. And I think I've also heard it as kind of like the approach withdrawal kind of perspective and it's just kind of, you know, our children's general response and reactions to new people and situations. And, you know, again, kind of defining this range on the upper end, being more open on the lower end, being more hesitant. And, you know, this is really kind of I think of the the strange situation Mary Ainsworth of, you know, kind of, hey, we're in this new environment or this new person. How are we going to respond? And are we using, you know, a secure base to kind of go and start to, like, explore out, you know, are we just going to you know, at the moment we have an open space. We're just going and exploring beyond it. You're not really knowing what's going on or are we kind of hiding behind mom or dad and, you know, not really. You know, even taking those steps beyond that with, again, new situation, a new place there. And again, I think something we see in our children all the time and working now each end has its own value and working to kind of have that assessment of our children and promoting adaptability in it. Yeah, it's yeah, I think most people are probably familiar with that. The idea of the approach and withdrawal, that seems to be one that I think sticks with a lot of people. But we do we know these kids. You know, there's some kids that come into my office that you would think I've known them for years, you know. You know, so so my my label is I call those my welcome ers or my greeters. Right. Like they could they could be a hostess at a restaurant at three years of age. You know, they're just really good at it. And then, you know, the other ones I like times will say that they're shy kids. I see they're more of an A watchers. Right. Like their kids that just need to get comfortable in that situation first. And again, I think this one has the greatest benefit to finding balance because, you know, those kids that are are really overly welcoming and, you know, they don't have good stranger danger. And, you know, there's there's a concern, I think, with that. And and from a parenting standpoint, like you, you want your kids to be social. I think that's great. But it's also we also need them to also. I have a little bit of kind of I want to check this situation out. I want to make sure I'm really comfortable with it. So there there is a balance, but we don't want to make them afraid. So it's trying to find that, you know, so how do we teach kids that, that restraint to say, hey, that's great that you're friendly, but. I don't. You know, we need to get to know somebody first. So what do you tell parents in those situations? And, you know, at times I even like to bring in this concept of risk taking when we're talking about this topic. And so, you know, risk taking in, you know, opening up in conversations with others or how they respect reacting to situations. And, you know, for those that are over, like being able to kind of almost go through scenarios and so like, like let you know if we're not going to maybe real world initially. Hey, let me run through a scenario. What would you do? And just kind of like getting their initial perceptions or reactions, you know, and that's for the children, the age they can have, like those kind of like general conversations. But I mean, we do this kind of constantly and so, I mean, maybe not necessarily in person with people to of like, you know, hey, if you are in danger, you know, and you're out in public, who are the people you go towards a police officer? You know, we go towards the end of the firefight, like we go towards those individuals. And so kind of naming and specifying who are the individuals that we're deeming as safe and then who are the individuals that were not? And similarly, we kind of go with this preparation for that, you know, that openness and almost maybe kind of like impulsivity, like, you know, not stopping in, assessing that risk taking. What do we do before we cross the road will look both ways. And so, you know, we do this constantly with our children to be able to kind of have them assess, you know, assessing situations that are and then again, getting that initial reaction and working to have it, you know, that kind of discernment. Yeah, I love that, I think is kind of similar to what I do with kids. I'll talk with parents about We don't want to we don't want to minimize their their social engagement because it's such a great skill. But there are boundaries to it. And I think that's where that risk taking comes in, where it's you know, I mean, I just had a kid this week who he walked in, I shook mom and dad's hands and he gave me a hug. You know, I'd never met him. That's something, I think from a parenting standpoint. We go, it's great that you want to be friendly, but maybe let's start by fist bumping people or maybe, you know, whatever it might be like teaching that boundary I think is important. I think on that other end that that kind of watcher, you know, there's always, I think, a balance in some kids are shy, some kids there is a little anxiety. But what are small steps we can take to help it? And, you know, I don't agree with parents who push their kids out in front of people. And like you have to say hi, but maybe starting with, hey, listen, you know, let's let's work on just making eye contact people or, you know, maybe just a small one word response and building those skills in some some people, you know, they're not going to be outwardly like that. That's just part of who they are. Again, we're not trying to take away them having some reservation. It's just in making it where it's functionally. Where maybe they do, you know, again, kind of greet somebody, but maybe they're not going to engage in a conversation for a while. But we don't want them over time for people to think maybe that they they're rude or they don't have the right social skills. So trying to find that balance and you know, I can't help but think about our episode on selected Miss Mutism. I'm with Dr. Shipp and Lemon and one of the great episode. But one of the things that she had shared in terms of like building, buying and motivation is finding the things that the kids are interested in. I think she gave an example of like if there's a kid who really isn't hockey and it's like, hey, I took up the world call and you have to get the ticket. Like, Right. What do you do it like? Are you going to miss out of the game because of this? And so working to kind of find that mode of those motivators that connect and build motivation to want to engage and want to kind of take that you know, stepping outside of that comfort zone. Yeah, that's I'm glad you brought that episode up. I didn't even think about that when you said I'm like, Oh, yeah, that's a perfect one for for this kind of category. Because, you know, I don't know what that research looks like, but I would I would say that probably if we look into the developmental psychopathology around something like selective mutism, this idea of, you know, being able to. Basically in our initial reaction, I think is probably something that's pretty prominent. And I'm glad you brought it up. So let's talk about our next one hour, which is adaptability. So, you know, this is basically how quickly and comfortably is can adjust to change or to new experiences after their initial response. So, you know, we have these kids who adapt quickly. So, you know, my my terms, the easy, breezy kids like you can throw curveballs at them and it just never bothersome. And then there's other kids that need more time and really need kind of a slower pace to adjust. And, you know, I term them the steady pace kids like it's it's not that they won't adjust but we just need to give them the right amount of time to get comfortable with that situation. So the the technical terms are accommodating versus resistant. I never like the word resistant because I, I find that that's really not what most kids are. But I think we need to give them the right supports and time to, to adjust. And that's where I kind of I think steady pace is maybe a little better. And, you know, I think this one is I mean, it's the counterpart, I think, to that, you know, initial reaction where how we adapt with change. And you know, I was mentioning, you know, with this kind of sparked off some different research articles and this was actually one of the traits named in one of the articles surrounding you know, predicting some of the psychopathology and, you know, actually surrounding, you know, negative divergences such as autism spectrum disorder. I mean, it even suggests, you know, some of those mental diagnoses, such as OCD. And, you know, if we're looking at it in the terms of the diagnosis, you know, this this is a piece of it. And certainly, you know, it's not to say if we have our, you know, distant or, you know, more so the the steady pace children, it just, you know, does not mean that it's a you know, they for sure have a diagnosis. But, you know, I think it's also something valuable that if we start to notice some of these patterns early on, it's something we can kind of be mindful of. And if we start to then, you know, again, I'm going to pull back on another great episode with Russell Ramsay, you know, just using it's a kind of an early screening tool for us that we can kind of just be mindful of and, you know, gathering information with. Yeah. And and I think, you know, again, kind of back to kind of our goal of talking about these things is, you know, when we see this in kids at a young age, what how do we respond? And, you know, so the adaptability piece, what we have to make sure we don't do is. And I think that that's that's always a concern. Like when we have kids who maybe don't adapt easy situations as parents, it's it's much easier sometimes to just move around them versus supporting the child through that adaptability. So if we have a kid that that needs that steady pace, it's maybe we're preparing them ahead of time saying, you know, these changes are going to come up and we we make a plan to kind of work through it with them or we give them more time to adapt to a situation. And and that's okay. What we don't want, though, is that because it's the change is difficult that we never introduce the lack of of predictability. They think this idea that the reality is new experiences all the time. So how do we give kids the coping around that, the kids that are in that easy breezy or that that kind of a comedy and then there's not a whole lot we have to do. Right. It's pretty simple, but not all kids are there. And so it's it's how do we build on that, that kind of steady pace and how do we just give parents some resources? So, you know, for me, it's again, I always start out with let's let's start by talking about transition times with kids and maybe we give a lot of lead time and we work through them. And then over time, maybe we shorten that. Maybe we don't give them a full day to know that tomorrow something's going to happen. Maybe we tell them the night before, or maybe we tell them that morning, Hey, this change is going to happen in our schedule. And if there is a reaction or it's difficult for them working through that with them. I think one of the books that I always find really useful is Ross GREENE, who originally wrote the Explosive Child Book, but his more recent books called Raising Humans and in Raising Humans, he talks a lot about how do we help kids around executive function problems, which adaptability tends to kind of fall in that, you know, and it's, you know, how do we how do we collaborate with them to help them move forward through those situations? And I think that's really with parents. What often I'll talk about is how do we support kids to work through it? Again, we don't want to avoid it. We don't want to make it that way because we'll never predict everything that's going on. And, you know, I think, you know, or talking about some of that, like the difficulty in developing the, you know, the that adaptable or accommodating response. But I also like when I'm talking with parents or, you know, even more so like, you know, maybe like mid mid adolescence and teen years. I actually like to talk about, you know, what happens if we're overly adaptable and the difficulty at times that we can have with speaking our mind or pushing back against various ideas because it feels like we're we're kind of going with the flow and like we're able to change and now accommodate so well. But in doing so, are we then not following through with things that feel important in terms of our values and things? And there's is that used to do this with a pencil, but I ended up raising too many pencils, so I wouldn't but like I would have like a clipboard or something and I would say, okay, hey, like, you know, if I have a pencil here and I'm, you know, trying to get past this clipboard and I hit this wall, if I'm, you know, overly rigid, I can press and I can press. And eventually the pencil is going to break. I also had a rubber band and say, I'm too flexible. It does. It could, but it's not making it over the wall because it's droop and straight down. And I think that's what was that other end of what we become too flexible we're not actually potentially making progress on specific goals if it's I'm changing, I'm changing, I'm changing. And so I try to encourage this idea of like rigid flexibility and saying, how do we maintain our shape and how do we maintain a direction or course? But we're able to then, you know, kind of having some of that like, okay, now this is still important to me. I'm still going to attend to this, but I just have to attend to it in a different way. And so I think that's kind of like what that accommodating is really intended. But I have also seen the other extreme end of that life of sure. Accommodating it, maybe. That's interesting. I am not familiar with the research on it, but it would be interesting to kind of look at is that those kids that are over accommodating are they also kids that struggle with setting boundaries with people later on that, you know, you do just despite the fact maybe you want to do something you don't because it doesn't bother me. But deep down, maybe you you do. I mean, I don't know. I think that's an interesting point. You may I think we we think of that that kind of homemade eating piece as as a as a good trait. But you're right, I think in extremes. Right. They all have the potential to have a difficulty. So, yeah, I mean, I think that that's interesting that maybe that there's more, you know, sometimes it's okay to say no. Yeah, yeah. That's always going to be like a people pleaser. That's right. That's right. You know, and that brings us back and you know, and I guess kind of moving on to this next trait being intensity. And actually this is another one of those that the articles had mentioned. But, you know, intensity is our emotional response to events. You know, our range being from exuberant to a tragic. And, you know, in this sense, we have with our children that are more exuberant, we see this really kind of diverse range of emotions or even kind of the how they're presenting themselves. You know, I think on the upper end, you know, we have these children that have this, like, really kind of fluid and, you know, and reaching that upper intensity of emotional responses and maybe even how they manage their emotions. So, you know, it can be, you know, something happens and we're getting a really, really large response or we're getting almost kind of a constantly changing responses where on the lower end of that, like that lethargic response really kind of being a flat affect and oh, maybe, maybe a bit more, you know, kind of date the episode inside out to just, you know, still kind of in this case and you know ennui was one of the new emotions like as a great you know, it's been a long time since I've heard that. But, you know, even just kind of like that boredom where, you know, where we're not really having an emotional range. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I always describe this as kind of that that energy level in response that we so you know, like there's exuberant is you know I kind of call them the hurricane kids they're the kids that you know and they're excited and are they excited? And when they're angry, man, are they angry? You know, it's it's that it's it's they emote in big ways. Like it's, you know, and there's there's great parts of that. But that's also, you know, it can create some difficulty in the I see the the other end of that I say they're they're more gentle breeze so it's a much more subdued is to have many times a reaction but you know they're kids that you know hey, maybe, you know, their excitement. You kind of go, wow, I really thought they would be more excited about it. It doesn't mean that they don't enjoy it. And yeah, they but they're they're not the kid going to do cartwheels over things, you know. So those I think those extremes this is the one that for me really got me into this. Like it really made me kind of interested in this idea of temperaments and you know, mainly because you know it just ash in the last. Here. So about a year ago there was a study related to exuberance and ADHD, and I think actually a phenomenal study. And it basically showed that kids that have a high exuberant temperament also have higher risk factors related to developing ADHD. So we also see things like a lot of motor reactivity, fearlessness, those kinds of things that come along. But what was fascinating for me in the article is that they really talked about how parenting impacted the outcome, so that if we had kids that were exuberant with changing our parenting style, we may delay the onset of ADHD symptoms or minimize the intensity of them. And, you know, we could spend a whole episode probably just on that study, but it really came around this idea of when we parent differently, we can build better executive functions. And so they talk about kind of three types of parenting. They talk about being a directive parent, a dismissive parent and a supportive parent. And, you know, we we, I think all want to say that we're supportive parents. Right. That just sounds better. Yeah. Yeah. But what the research actually found was that directive parenting actually had the best outcome for those kids where, you know, it it wasn't just about supporting the the the emotions or behaviors. It was really about guiding kids in a direct manner. So I oftentimes use a simple example of, you know, it's not enough to say, hey, go pick up your toys. Come on, I really want you to pick up your toys. I'm going to give you a reward if you pick up your toys. It was much more parenting where they said, all right, give me your hand. We're going to walk over and together we're going to pick up these toys where it was a very direct style. A lot of modeling and those things. And that actually had the best outcomes. Now. Not with all kids. So, you know, I want to qualify like you. So they did find that kids that had very high levels of exuberance and higher traits of of ADHD. We saw less of an impact. But for a lot of kids, there was a benefit. So I thought it was just great research. And, you know, I think one of the we've talked about various themes that crop up in our episodes, but, you know, modeling and the value of modeling it I think has been a consistent one And, you know, especially when we have that opportunity to really demonstrate and show and be a part of the process, the value of taking it. And so yeah, absolutely, yeah. Yeah, it is. So it's a great it's a lot of great research in that area. And you know, the next area we're in talk about also has some really a good body of research behind the idea of quality of mood. And so for quality and mood, it's this tendency toward a positive versus a negative outlook and how that's reflected in kind of our mood, our behavior and our reactions. So, you know, even at a young age, we have some kids that show more negative affect, you know, so I, I use the term sunny and cloudy, right? There's this this kind of, you know, sometimes kids, no matter what, they're they might find the negative in things. You know, the interesting part when we look at things like anxiety disorders, you know, David Barlow, you know, he looks at the idea of negative activity being a predictor of anxiety disorders. And that research has held true, that when we see kids that have kind of that negative affect at a young age, they are more prone to it. Again, not a direct causality, but we see it more often. So, you know, from a parenting standpoint, even at a young age, if we have children that kind of have that, focusing on trying to, you know, even, you know, young kids can have negative thought patterns. So the CBT person in me is getting kids to try to find positive situations. And in starting that at an early. And, you know, I think to to just echo that, like, you know, talking about that perspective, taking and talking about like that. Yeah, I, I like to, you know, when I'm working with kids and especially if there's, like more of that negative affect, you know, working a challenge and saying, okay, like a one, like, why is this happening? And so if it's like, okay, you know, parents are taking away something. So, you know, this is so frustrating like that. I don't get to do what I want to do. I hear that and I want to validate and give you give you that recognition. But I also want to challenge you and say, like, well, why do you think they're doing that? And like, is there value? Like, are they doing it because they're awful people? Most people, most of the clients or whatever, they know they're doing it because they like and it's working to at least kind of bringing in some of that recognition and, you know, talking even back to our, um, sort of disagreeing while like the idea of like, I don't have to necessarily agree to be able to understand. And I think even if we can cultivate that understanding of how a person experience can be perceived differently, it works to build resilience. And I think, you know, certainly for our. It's that you struggle with negative affect working to encourage resilience or you know later on you know anxiety treatment I refer to it more as grit really helps out in terms of like how do we work to create a greater sense. Ability to adapt. Yeah, yeah. It's you know, and I, you know, as from a parenting standpoint, especially with little kids, you know, I the example I oftentimes give the parents is, you know, you know, one easy way that we'll oftentimes see this negative mood show up is kids to clean up their room or their toys. That's a good way to see that. Most of them, you know, that have a negative affect are going to complain about having to do it. And it's it's not necessarily this idea that we have to convince them that cleaning their room is fun. But our ability as a parent to adapt that to to in a way that allows them to clean their room in a fun way. So, you know, if you know, if your kid doesn't want to clean their room, maybe you let them pretend to be a race car and you time to see how fast they can do You know, it's a cognitive refocus that we're now going to take something they like and we're going to going to put that into to a fun way that now cleaning up their room, you know, isn't as negative. You know, my kids were part of that, or at least my oldest daughter was part of the Barney days. And, you know, when not I was not a great fan of the Barney Show, to be honest. But, you know, what did they do? They had a clean up song, right? It was, you know, and I won't sing it, but I actually it's going through my head at the moment. You know, it's anybody that's heard it, heard it, they refocused kids to make it fun. It it was a fun thing. Or again, me or maybe maybe your kids into Pokémon and, you know, so maybe you take and hide a Pokemon somewhere and you have a scavenger hunt that they have to do while they're cleaning up their room. We take that negative activity and we teach them that we can refocus negative to positive. And that's not therapy necessarily. It's just something that, as parents we can do. Does that mean they're always going to that are never going to or they're going to eventually love to clean their room? Maybe not, but it buffers it a little bit. You know, we keep bringing back some older episodes. We and we talked about, you know, this idea of the the gentle treat culture or little treats culture, you know. And as adults for ourselves, you know, we try something positive to something negative. We can start that with kids at a very young age. And the more that we can do that, I think that the way we broaden some of this this effort, not so a basketball hoop over a hamper really helps to turn, you know, clothes on the floor into just a fun basketball, like, you know, making very three points and layups. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's yeah, there's so many ways you can do it. And again, it's just to help refocus a little. Well, and speaking of focus, I think the next treat on the list is distractibility, which, you know, I think is one of the traits that I think is a bit more widely known and recognized in. It's, you know, our ability to focus in whether we're attentive or inattentive or even easily sidetracked. And so, you know, those children that are able to attend to tasks and I would even say like those tasks that tend to be under stimulating is a great measure. If it's something we enjoy doing, you know, that still takes a relative focus. But you know, in the presence of different distractions or, you know, things that make you more challenging so, you know, a noisy environment or just a lot of busy movement going on. And then, you know, children who struggle with that getting sidetracked more frequently, noting when that attention shifts and, you know, starts to wander or starts to get focused on whatever it is that isn't that target goal or focus for them. Yeah, it's you know, so in my terms for parents, I talk about kids being explorers on one end and focused on the up. And, you know, it's really again, we keep talking about this idea of balance. You know, the reason with young kids, especially especially that I don't like the word attentive is. To quickly assume that that means something like, you know, it's a it becomes a criteria. And, you know, when we're talking young kids, you know, two or three year old kids, they're not going to focus for 20 minutes. And we have to, you know, stay developmentally. Yes. I tell parents you had two or three. If you attend for 3 to 5 minutes, that's actually really good. Sesame Street was brilliant. Their episodes are second someti or that the episodes with their segments are, you know, seconds at times. That's because that age group, that's what's going to happen. So it is okay that kids are. Explorers that they're jumping. Activity to activity. But again, we want to get to a time where sometimes it's kind of going back to what we started with is, you know, how do we build their time to focus? And, you know, we're probably not going to get many kids that are 3 to 5 years of age that are much more over 5 minutes. Like that's probably going to be a good part. Some will. But as a whole, if they're not, that's all right. You know, I I love going to kindergarten classes. And one is because they're brilliant teachers who can move and change tasks about every 5 minutes. And I and I don't have that skill. So when I see somebody do it well, I'm like, Oh, this is really great. So, you know, again, if 5 minutes is the max, our goal is not to get them to 20, maybe it's another 30 seconds that they can sit to read a book or to build a puzzle or to do something that might not be high energy interest, but is something that will at least capture their attention. And. On the other end of that like that. No potential for distractibility. I know oftentimes that, you know, kind of viewed in that more negative light, but I can't help but think, you know, even it's a model of, you know, helping support emotional regulation for children of ADHD. But it is this really cool kind of emotional regulation map that works to kind of standardize how we're responding to this. And one of those is distract yourself. So, you know, in the presence of intense emotions, the ability to distract away from whatever it is that's creating that sometimes a really helpful thing. And so and sometimes, you know, I think certain children a hard time letting that go and you know, I think too much distractibility can lead to more anxiety, you know, and many other things. But we need some distractibility to be let go of the anxiety. Sure. Yeah, yeah. I mean, again, none of these things in and of themselves as negative. We all should have a range to do them. I think that's important. And the next one is kind of on the same line, I guess, in the sense that if the next trait is attention span and persistence. So, you know, this is really that idea of how long a child can focus on a singular activity and what their presence is in face of an obstacle. So what do they do when it's difficult? So, you know, and they stick with the task for a long time, even when it's frustrating. So I call them the marathon kids. And on the other end, kids that can only do things in short bursts, which are kind of the sprinters, you know. So think about it where they can be real intense for a good two or 3 minutes, but then they tucker out really, really fast. And when we throw in the idea that challenges also affect this, so, you know, when we see kids with something like ADHD, those tasks that are mentally challenging are the harder ones for them to do. So, you know, maybe reading a book or something like that. So again, kind of I guess a similar strategy is that we're just trying to build that tolerance. We're just trying to say, hey, I want you just just do it for ten more seconds or, you know, so, you know, this is one that with parents, I say probably the best investment you can make is an old egg timer that ticks. You know, everyone else is. Yeah. What are your thoughts. Yeah. And and set that and you know what let kids build build a level at which they think attention and as as adults, you know now we we oftentimes we'll hear about what's called the Pomodoro technique, which is, you know, basically a similar thing, like we're going to attend for 25 minutes and take a break for four or five. And while I think some people think, oh, can I pay attention to 25 minutes, the reality is, is most of us only pay attention for about 20 to 25 minutes. So those little breaks we just may take in different ways. And again, you know, I think such a valuable thing when we're talking about those children that can be know whether it's overly focused or like they really struggle to gain that investment in going back and trying to create that. Reading some of that motivation. And so bringing back that little treat culture. And I think especially for our children that struggle with that attentiveness, being able to have something that feels motivating and know it and this is more so focused on ADHD. But I remember hearing like. Or primary motivators for children with ADHD and its, you know, interest competition, pressure in new and novel experiences. And, you know, I think school and a lot of the times we're using utilizing pressure, we think about that as like negative consequences or punishment, but also the value of reward and things like that in generating motivation. And so when we need that resilience to be able to attend longer time, how do we then work to increase the motivation and desire to engage with it? Mm hmm. Yeah. I always forget about those four things I think are important. I mean, I oftentimes, like, consult with teachers. I bring those up since I think from a parenting perspective about as well. Absolutely. Well, you know, and kind of brings us in here towards our last trait, which is our children's sensory threshold. And so that is how they are reacting or responding to just various sensory stimulus. So, you know, texture, touch, you know, brightness, how loud something is or volume a specific taste or aroma. And, you know, again, kind of having this range of like, you know, children who are unaffected or, you know, they're able to tolerate a more diverse range or children who kind of struggle with that. You know, there's a bit more irritation, especially in the presence of, you know, certain stimulus or certain sensory experiences. And, you know, I think that this is one that when the term sensory comes up, narrative urgency, I think, is a common topic that approaches in terms of like whether it's, you know, autism or ADHD. But really, all individuals have this sensory. BR Yeah, it's, you know, and, and I think, you know, you said the word tolerance. You know, I say you think it is, you know, there is a group of kids that are just tolerant to any it's just doesn't bother them. And the other side is that more reactive and great, you know, and, and again, these are things that yeah, they are they are oftentimes part of neurodiversity, but something I, I challenge people that even if it's a neurodiversity, it doesn't mean that we don't. I'm exposure to it. Sometimes we have to accommodate. Like there are kids that I work with and even adults that, you know, sounds can be difficult for them and that at certain times they do have to wear things like headphones or something to help minimize it. But there's also a need to expose herself. And I think that we sometimes forget how important exposure therapies are and, and shared with Paul, you know, and someone in my office just recently where, you know, their parents accommodated but also continually challenge. So things like food textures or, you know, the the sound of somebody eating. As parents, they said, listen, we have to continually expose them because we we want them to be able to be in situations where it doesn't bother them as much. Now, still, there are times that their preference is, I don't want to be around anybody else chewing. That's okay. It becomes then a choice that they can accommodate when they need to. But they also, when they choose to be in that situation, they've been exposed enough that they're able to to at least be in that situation without it being so distressing to them. So it's it's really a balance. And for some, even with that exposure, it's difficult and we have to recognize that. But I know in my career I've seen so many individuals who have put themselves through their own kind of self exposure with things and and have had bleak outcomes and exploring the ways of modulate. And, you know, two things really come to mind. And it was a really early episode and I think it was like swear words really matter. And you gave the example of, you know, our ability to tolerate our hand in an ice bucket and how if we had the ability to swear. It allowed us to you know, it improved our tolerance for that. And, you know, here recently, a bit of a heat wave we've been experiencing here in south central Pennsylvania. And, you know, I've had many, you know, many kids. I'm working with it like, oh, I'm at camp and it's hot outside. And I was like, I get that. So what do you do to make it fun? Or like, what was the most fun thing you did out there? And then they start asking like, oh, like, well, we started playing this game or we started playing, you know, you know? And I was like, to make it any less hot. Like, No, I just wasn't thinking about it as much. And so again, being able to encourage in the presence of like, you know, 100 degree weather, how do we work to be able to tolerate that and making sure we're taking breaks to, you know, we don't want to overheat, but, you know, it's we need to go out in the hundred degree heat, even for a short duration the ability to do so successfully. Yeah. And it's and I think the we forget how amazing our minds and bodies are. You know, it's you know, I'm a person who I'll be honest, I love air conditioning. You know, it's great. It's a great thing, especially on these hot days. But, you know, I, I just got back from some international travel and and traveled in an area where, you know. Putting your air conditioning down to 72 degrees just isn't. Consistent in that area. And so, you know. Hotel rooms were generally set at temperatures about 77 degrees. My first night, like, I sat there going, my gosh, how am I going to sleep for the next week in temperatures that felt that warm? But what was amazing was, you know, two days later, my body kind of adapted to it. I pushed myself through the exposure. I was uncomfortable until that point. And then I kind of I body forgot about it and I adapted. The interesting part, the whole flight home, I froze on the airplane because they had too much air conditioning. I went like, Oh my gosh, my body is now going the other direction. Now, it didn't take much to get back to wanting it to be really cold. But again, I think sometimes we overthink it and sometimes our bodies will adjust over time. It might be uncomfortable. And yes, there are. There are some situations where that adaptation's not not easy and maybe never comes, but for a lot of people over time, that exposure. I'll help again. Exceptions to that, but at least trying to move the needle a little bit. And just real quickly here, like at the end, I think one of the things I really like to talk about, about, you know, we're kind of adjacent to this topic is homeostasis and how do we try to return back to neutral And I often have to try to relate that back even to mental health and thinking about like our emotions or letting us know what's going on that and we're trying to return back to neutral. But, you know, why do we sweat in our bodies working to accommodate and adjust or another one is I'd like to never walked into bed bath and body works and I was like I was really strong. You're in there only 25 minutes. The intensity smiled and changed. Just our awareness in our has changed and so certainly you know I think yeah we can adapt to really really diverse settings. We just have to give our, our bodies the ability to get there. Yeah. And sometimes it takes a lot of time to do it and sometimes it's much faster, you know, but it's, it, it's worth us at least continuing to try to move in that. And that was our last trait here. And really when we're talking about temperament again, and I think we've said it multiple times, but it's really kind of this idea of like, how do we work to find a harmony within, you know, the environment, the circumstances we're in? And it's never about being on one end of the spectrum or the other, but rather how do we create an ability to tolerate variance and promoting us from where we're at in our general temperament? And then how do we expand that? So that way we can accommodate to be successful in a diverse, you know, diverse range of environments. I agree. And, you know, this was fun. It was kind of an interesting topic that I haven't had a chance to really, you know, dove into until recently. And one maybe we'll continue to chat about. I hope so. 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