Living Psyched: Polarizing Politics

Join us on the latest episode of the Psyched to Practice Podcast as Paul and Ray delve into the impact of politics on our mental health. They explore how political ads and social media amplify extreme viewpoints, creating a cycle of polarization that can feel overwhelming.

In this thought-provoking discussion, they break down the tactics behind political marketing, including the use of rhetoric, emotional appeals, and personas. Learn how to seek balanced news sources, fact-check claims, and understand the motivations behind political ads. The episode emphasizes the importance of self-reflection and open dialogue in managing political stress and encourages listeners to think critically about their reactions to political content.

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Transcript

Everyone and welcome to the Psyched to practice podcasts. Your one stop for practical and useful clinical information. Masterful insight from experts in the field and a guide to Daily Living. I'm your host, Paul Wagner. And joining me is Ray Christner. And, you know, we have a kind of timely episode here, Ray. Now we want to talk about politics and, you know, where we kind of kick this around because, wow, what a heavy topic. But also, like, I feel like we're doing a disservice if we're not working to talk about it, but we also want to really be informed and intentional with how we talk about it. Yeah, it's it's the topic we're never supposed to talk about, right? Absolutely. Yeah. You know, we get told, like, you know, you shouldn't talk about politics with people, but I think you're right. Timely. I mean, we're now just a few months out from I think what most people would say is a big presidential election. And already we've seen a whole bunch of whirlwind that's come from it. And, you know, it's interesting because I think as this comes, you know, clinically, I start hearing from patients and, you know, talking about their own anxiety or the conflict that's happening and something that, you know, is been part of our society for many, many years. Yeah. All of a sudden, now that we have all these media outlets and sources of how we get information, I think for a lot of people, it it's truly an overwhelming time. And in some ways we're exposed whether we want to be or not. And, you know, I've been working in some ways to take a bit of a hiatus from the news and the exposure and kind of, you know, doing some of my own self-care pieces with that. And I'm inundated with it. And so like, you know, I can't say like I'm going out of my way to reduce those political ads, but I'm going on my way to reduce ads in general. And yet still just the information coming in and either, you know, that's being targeted information from, you know, website banners or if it's coming up in a conversation or not listening to a podcast. And they're talking about it kind of like right now, you know, hopefully here working and not not necessarily having a specific agenda on one side or the other, but rather working to have the agenda of like how do we become informed consumers by politics and for information Yeah. And we will not have political ads. And I think, you know, you're right. I think the you know, it's interesting because I think it's such a passive experience for us that, you know, we we hear ads there on all the time. And I'm not even sure that we always listen to them. But there's still parts that we do attend to. And I don't I don't know what it is currently with this election, but I remember reading something that back in, I want to say it was the 2016 election or maybe it was 2020 that the average adult enjoying the political season before presidency heard 500 ads which like just think of the volume of that, right? So, you know, it's when we run our news feed, it's when we listen to the radio, it's when we watch TV, pick up a newspaper, drive down the road, we see billboards, you know, it's yard signs. Yeah, we see yard signs. Right. And it's so it's there's so much that that that is just with us all the time. And I think it's interesting taking a hiatus. I mean, I give you credit. I don't know how that would even work. I think it's just such a difficult thing. One, I don't know that it's going that well because I still feel like I'm fairly inundated. I'm just I'm not informed. But the interesting I know I'm not informed or at least I know how much I'm uninformed. And so when people are coming in and sharing things, I reckon it's like I don't have too much of a preconceived bias or Oh my gosh, did you hear about blank? And it's like, maybe, but like, I don't know too much. And I think that's an important piece. And one of the things that we're really working to like identify here today is like that, you know, we're in a polarized climate and, you know, really just the intensity of this election, it really feels like, you know, people are, you know, lining up on one side and lining up on the other. And there's this very, very clear divide. And I think that makes it hard for us to then have informed decisions and informed information, because what we're hearing is either rhetoric from one side or rhetoric within our own party. And, you know, we have to kind of stop and ask ourselves, well, how much of this is accurate? And like, you know, where is this coming from? Yeah, I mean, I think that it's you know, it is something we've dealt with forever. But, you know, it just seems like now the intensity of it. And and I think for me, the reason I was really wanting to do this topic is the impact on people, you know, where absolutely like I hear more people saying, I don't want to talk to this person because, you know, politics are going to come up or maybe people. All that are literally having anxiety about the future because, you know, what they're hearing is, you know, if this person gets elected, this is going to happen. And if the other person gets elected, this is going to happen. And, you know, it's where it actually does take such an emotional toll on us and, you know, uncertainty. And then having parents get that and kids who, you know, I don't remember as a kid really being all that much into politics now. But I've had young kids that I've seen who come in and are like, you know, well, you have if this happens, like, you know, we have to be prepared because, you know, all these things are going to change in the world. And it's like, wow, like I, you know, gosh, how do you be a kid? Yeah. You know, so I think that for me, I think that my concern with politics is just this polarizing dynamic that then turns into other manifestations in anxiety or depression or whatever it might be, and the importance of recognizing, you know, that fear peace and you know this as saying this isn't to discredit either side. And I think as we're saying, like, you know, a it's it's kind of, I guess, mongering to this fear in a way. And there is going to be an evocative reaction. You know, if there's something that feels threatened to you, then it's like, well, you know, you're discrediting this. But that's the piece. Both sides are feeling that. And I think that's the kind of important to recognize, because on the one side, you know, if we have like, oh, I'm, you know, my rights are being restricted. The other side saying, well, my rights are going to be restricted. And I really like this idea of like this aligning with our, you know, political parties, I think comes in from this perspective that says what's going to be the party that's going to work in my interest to reduce my fears? Yeah. That's I, you know, and I've heard that from people, you know, and people who say, you know, I'm voting for this political party because they have fear of maybe what's going to happen with their kids for education or whatever it might be, or, you know, what their their children's future will be. And I think, gosh, the ads really do try to. Evoke that in us, right? I mean, it's, you know, I, I, you know, just last night watching TV, I've seen Pamela ads and I've seen Trump ads. And both of them were telling you why the world will be unsafe in a worse place if the other person gets elected. And sometimes I think they also are trying to say, and here we are, the solution. Right. And other times they leave us hanging and just say, yeah, no, the world is going to be a worse place with, you know, if you vote if you vote for this candidate. Right. Yeah. And it's and I even sometimes when these you know, I think the interesting part with political ads for me and and, you know, I'm a skeptic. I'm a skeptic about way too much stuff. But like, when I hear it, I go, actually, you know, no one's actually told me how they're going to fix it like so, okay, this person, you know, is going to do something that's going to make the world safe. But don't just tell me you're going to. Yeah. You be the opposite. How are you going to be the opposite? And I think that's the part that we we don't I don't think we focus enough on trying to get deeper than somebody just saying they're a better candidate. And I think that's why it becomes so emotional for us. Like we really don't ever hear an answer. You know, it's you know, I'm a I'm kind of a little bit of a political nerd. Like when I hear there's debates coming, I'm excited about that. Like, I like to watch that. But why I want to is I truly want to hear, you know, don't just say the other person's a scary person or this person that's going to do all of these things, that's going to change my life. I mean, what you're going to do and how you're going to do it. And if we don't look at that, I think that that makes our fears even worse. And like, how can you imagine if this was in other professions in such a profound way? We're like, you know, if you're electing for a surgery and you're kind of between two surgeons and all you're hearing is about how that other surgeon is going to kill you and how are you going to treat me like that's what I want to know. What's what's the course of treatment? How are we going to resolve this? Like, you know, if I'm going to be safe, then that's really what we're looking for. We're looking for the information, not, again, just that, you know, trying to, you know, end at the face or really kind of undercut the other side of that. Or again, say like, hey, you know, no problem, I got this for you. You know, you don't have to worry at all. I'm going to take care of you, right? No worries. Yeah, I kind of like yeah, it is kind of funny. Like, you know, as you said that I'm thinking, like, is there another profession that. Our our approach to other people in that profession, for lack of a better term, our competition. Do we say? Things that are going to frighten people to go there. So like Burger King and McDonalds, don't say, hey, don't go to Burger King because you're going to get food poisoning. They say we have a better product. And come here. It's it's bigger, it's better, it's cheaper or whatever it's going to be, you know, or doctors, you know, it's not, hey, this person's going to kill you. It's Hey, I trained really hard, and I have this credential. You know, it's interesting. Why why don't we hold politicians to the same standard? Is that like, it's, you know, we're like, I don't know, is there another. Is there another advertisement that we see that just puts you in fear of the competition? So marketing in politics just takes a different face. And I think, you know, again, it's it's why it is so stressful for people, you know, it's you know, and I get some people not wanting to even get involved in it because it is it's it's hearing all of these bad things. And I don't know, I just don't think that, you know, it's definitely not good for people. But I don't know that, you know, our podcast probably is not going to change the way political advertisements happen that we have every right but it's yeah, I do think for people listening it's it's things to think about, you know, like so when, when you do have an emotional reaction, you know why, you know, what is it? And, and you know what happens with patients. That's that's the conversations I'll have is, you know, why do you have that reaction? And, you know, is there a factual basis? And, you know, we'll talk about some tips for people, but it's it's really getting people to be more thoughtful. And, you know, I'm curious, you said something earlier. You kind of use it as an example of, you know, hey, I'm afraid about the impact that this that this election is going to have on my child's education. Yeah. And I'd be willing to bet that the individuals who are listening to the podcast heard that in the lens of their own political party. Yeah. And I would almost challenge you like how do you step outside of that and work to hear it in the lens of the other political party and in a way that doesn't do it with judgment, in a way that doesn't do with bias. And it's like, oh yeah, but like, you know, what do they have to worry about is that's a statement we could also make about either a political party. And, you know, if we kind of think about that, how we contextualize information, how we really can only filter it through a certain particular lens. And that's dangerous because, you know, what's what is it that we're missing? And that's this whole entire other side of the political spectrum. And so I don't want to advocate, you know, don't compromise on your values and your morals and how they help to guide you, you know, in choosing your political party. But also don't demonize the values and morals of others as well. And how do we work to hear and understand even if we don't agree? Yeah, I agree 100% with you. Right. It's you know, we talked about this when we we talked about disagreements in an earlier episode to some extent. But, you know, I, I said I love politics. And part of it is really trying to understand both sides and that understanding, you know, why do people have that? And I think it's easy. It's easy for us to dismiss what the other side's concerned about. And, you know, and I won't get into, I guess, maybe specifics just because of patient confidentiality. But I've had patients that when they talk about their fears. Understand it. Like I go, oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, that's I get it. Like that makes that makes perfect sense. But that doesn't mean that the other side doesn't also have fears. I think that's the part that, you know, we do have to kind of look at it. And I. I think the other part of this is that, you know, when we when we hear politics, we most of the time here, I think you said it's the vocal minority, right? It's the this group of people that they're saying it louder. They're saying it stronger. When I talk to most people who might be leaning in a direction one way or the other and have an opinion about it, but it might not create such that. And I say anger toward the other side. You know, it's more of that like fear and saying, yeah, hey, I worry about this. Like these are where my values are and I want those values for my kids. And again, I think both political sides. They have their own piece that we have to acknowledge that just because it's different doesn't make it wrong. And I know there's for out there going, oh, no, there are things that are really wrong. Sure. Probably on both sides. We could probably come up with a number of statements, but much of it, you know, it's just different points of view. And we can't forget about that. You know, in politics, the other piece of this and, you know, we didn't mention this earlier is that, you know, we buy into personalities a. Yeah. You know, and it's I think that's the other piece of it. Like, we don't like a certain person more than we don't like necessarily the the underlying political beliefs of a party. At least the intensity the intensity comes with people. And I mean, you know, you just got to turn on the TV and you can hear somebody hating one candidate or the other that are very personal attacks. But we need to really kind of go, okay, what is it? It's just the belief of the party and moving away from the people. And I know that's hard because we elect people more. And, you know, go back like that, the the vocal minority landing on that extreme. And I can't help but think of, I guess, reverse standard distribution where, you know, the highest intensity is coming at those polarizing ends where, well, I guess it is more of a standard distribution in terms of like where do the majority of people end up, you know, playing but for looking at. We hear that's the reverse and that's that piece there. So we have to really recognize it as we're labeling the opposition, lose it that we're truly labeling. And it is a it's a minority and it's a minority on both ends. If you're conservative, you know, if there is a certain, like, dislike towards, you know, individuals who are, you know, more liberal, it's there's a more of a minority that you dislike, the majority disagree with. And, you know, same, you know, for liberals, if you dislike conservatives, there's a minority that you dislike. You disagree with the majority. And I think that's an important distinction. You know, we you know, if we go with that intensive language recipe of a hate, someone like there's a. We should really know someone truly and deeply well to be able to hate them. And yet again, it's something that we can cultivate through this, like emotional manipulation that the media puts out there that we're being told on within our own party, within the opposing party. And, you know, just kind of the echo chamber that our political parties can be, we don't hear a lot of the outside influence. And I think it's easy to then get into that groupthink mentality. And we're not stopping and really saying, how does this align with my own personal beliefs, my own personal values? And, you know, and I can't help but think talking about I did hear about this in the media how at least there for a bit Tenacious D separated because you know Jack Black heard Kyle saying something about like, oh, you know, this assassination attempt on Trump, like, you know, oh, man, we almost got or something along those lines. Very offensive. Yeah, right. And like, I don't know that it's a bad policy to say I'm not pro assassination on any attempt, but yet, if that's something that we're hearing, you know, again, echoing around it, it has an influence and really working to challenge that and saying that, no, that that's not okay for us to be That's not okay for us to be believing. It's really not okay for us to be putting out there in a very public fashion. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's that's a, I think a good example to bring up because I listen, there were people that said some pretty inappropriate things after the assassination attempt. I saw some of the media stuff. But that wasn't the majority. I mean, the majority of people who probably will never vote for Donald Trump were devastated by the fact that a president, you know, had an assassination attempt. There is no place for that. And and I think, you know, we heard that from, you know, Democratic leaders. And I think, you know, people that I know who, you know, have said some some not so nice things about Donald Trump. Came out and said, you know, gosh, me. And this was a horrible day. This was like we never would wish that on somebody in their family. I didn't last long. I mean, I think, you know, but yeah, we did. We had this little piece where as a country, I think people kind of came together and went, listen, this is this is way too far in the extreme end. But, you know, it's we look at like information, though, like I'm just going to use Facebook as an example. What we see on Facebook isn't that silent majority. It's usually the extreme comments made. And then that sets off extreme comments in another direction. And then people share them and it just it kind of rolls. But I don't know a lot of that. And like I said, I'm a person who likes politics. Very rarely do I ever see something posted that I like, that that I go, I'm really on board with that. Usually it is such an extreme thing that yes, yeah. You know, it's it's just to throw people off and, you know, I can't help but think, you know, I didn't take very many business classes when I when I was going through my undergrad. But, you know, there's a few marketing classes and actually it was one marketing class and I had friends that were in it that I heard more of it. But even into my own psychology classes where advertising and you know, I think it's such an important thing for us to recognize the arguments that are being made. And, you know, I use the term rhetoric quite a bit here, but like, you know, where is this argument coming from? And, you know, is it is it around in the logic, you know, is it a logos argument? Is it more of an emotionally evocative comment and, you know, statement? And so it's a Patheos or, you know, is it just the persona in the personality? You know, is it are we pulling on the ethos of who this person is? And, you know, what we ascribe to that person? And I think it's such and such a valuable thing to try to now go and inform ourselves and saying, you know, what am I being sold? Because at the end of the day, it's marketing. We're being sold something. And how do they sell it? You know, I don't I don't know that we're going to spend the time to go through the, you know, just the detailed, you know, the laws that are being generated in those pieces. They're we're going to get the snapshot and then we're going to get the snapshot that has some sort of emotional attachment to it. So the small piece, the small fragment that's going to be, you know, kind of unbiased and logical. And we're going to surround it in this because it's what sells and it's going to be what creates movement, certainly, and get charged up with those pieces. You know, as I'm reading something, I can't believe this, but how do I want to be more aware? So that way don't let it go too far. I don't let it get so carried away that that's all that I'm seeing and that's all that I'm experiencing. Yeah. So, I mean, I, I think that, you know, I think the idea of thinking of this from a marketing scheme, I think that's a great way to look at it because I think that helps us break it down different, you know, I mean, I think it's, you know, there's a reason why they put those things out and. We're consumers of that. I think that we don't think of ourselves as that, but I think that's a great point. So maybe let's talk about some tips to help people. How do they then? Break through this a little bit. And, you know, not that it's going to be stress free. That's part of being in a democracy. We're going to have those kind of arguments and those things. But maybe to do it in a way that doesn't have as much of an impact either on relationships or anxiety. So, you know, for me, I kind of I'm a research person. I you know, I always tell people is, listen, just because the media says it doesn't necessarily makes it true. True. If it's on Facebook, it's probably not true. There's a good there's a good chance that it's skewed in some ways. But, you know, finding some ways that we can fact check a little bit and, you know, is this is this really how it's being portrayed? Is that the truth behind it? And, you know, I think there's a lot of ways we can do that, and some are easier than others. But I think one is, you know, there are news outlets that are much more balanced, that they're not really pushing a left or right agenda. They really do kind of sit in the middle and, you know, you know, versus like Newsweek or Forbes that really don't have as much of a political identity. It might be sources that that we're going to trust maybe a little bit more. BBC is an outlet which, you know, is a British TV, but they cover many American, you know, situations, but places like that that we can go to or, you know. For me, if I hear about something, I tend to go to the source. So somebody is talking about some law that's going to change. I read the law. Now, I would not suggest that necessarily for everybody. Yeah. Especially when some of them are like 1200 pages that you go like, wow. Like, you know, how how do these politicians read all of this actually make a vote? They have a staff that helps. But, you know, but it's it's something that we can go to. And I think also looking at some fact checking sites, you know, and you would kind of mentioned one I think earlier. Yeah, I was looking a bit earlier and I was looking at the Associated Press site and they actually have it's their AP fact check. And, you know, I think the issue is like I think of the Associated Press as working to be more in that moderate view. I do think that they skew it slightly. But, you know, if in this intention to be, you know, okay, here's our fact checking. One of the nice things is that they're working to give a source. They're working to say, here's where we're getting that information from. And this is working to have that that be more informed while also working to identify what are the statements and comments being made that are leaning more right or leaning more left? And so I think there's value in the fact that they're calling both sides out. And so, again, not something that I think is perfect, but something that we can go to specifically and say, hey, how accurate is this information that's getting out there? Yeah, I like that. I'm glad you mentioned about the sources. You know, that's one of the things that for myself, if I'm, you know, trying to look at something, I want to look at a fact check that's going to tell me how they check the facts. And I think Politico does that as well. Like, I think Politico has a fact check. And, you know, the important part isn't just that they say it's true or false. What did they look at? Who did they contact? How did they reach that decision? And, you know, again, is it a perfect science? Probably not, but it's definitely going to be a better level. And, you know, I think I've commented on it before you. But, you know, when we're saying about like different tips and things that we can take away, like I do think, you know, you have to go and pursue a degree in it, but like learn some marketing strategies like, you know, learn how you're being sold certain information. And you know, I remember hearing it and I do try to keep this in mind. Like, if I'm not spending money on something, then I'm the product. So like, you know, how is our data being used against us? And I said earlier, I don't I'm not purposely going out and trying to consume a ton of news right now as we get closer to the election. Yeah, I'll probably go and seat myself and try to have that informed, but I'd rather have a lot to go through than dragging myself through it all. But until then, man, I'm still getting ad banners and, you know, pop ups and things like that. I can't tell you the number of text messages I've gotten. Oh, yeah. Know and I mean, think about that and just this idea and or currently in the market at least starting to talk to some car dealerships. And one of the things I can't help but think every time I'm talking is, you know, creating scarcity and working to provide a solution. And, you know, we're talking like, oh, you know, hey, this is not going to be here. Like, so when can we get you in? And we're talking about like, you know, my wife and I were talking like, hey, maybe 20, 25 and we're actually looking to make this and they're trying to say, Hey, can I get you down for next week? Because, you know, this vehicle isn't going to be here. You know, then, you know, the the shortage and the chips and, you know, where the inflation rates. And it's like they can make it compelling. Like they are good at what they do. They show a sense of lack of urgency and it's maybe do need to act on this. And and then I'm being sold on all the features that it's going to make my life, you know, incredible to do these things. And yet, okay, how do I step back and say no? And so I'm kind of being manipulated by marketing and. If we can be aware of it, I want us to be an informed consumer. Yeah. You know, I'm going to give an example that we've probably heard in a lot of different ways. But I remember reading somewhere about marketing where they said, you know, pay attention to marketing. That's trying to get you to run from something and instead look at marketing that's trying to get you to move towards something. And I think that, you know, we hear that about jobs and hear about a lot of different ways. But, you know, for me, when I think of marketing, when I in a political sense, I don't give a whole lot of credence to ads that are trying to get me to run for something. They don't tell me why I shouldn't vote somebody else. Yeah, tell me why I should vote for you. And that's you know, I think that's a really good rule of thumb for people that do get stressed by politics or, you know, fine. You know, this this whole political season to be difficult is, you know, try to find those sources that try to tell you why things might be better for them. And I think that's a better marketing. It's a better marketing to pay attention to. I can tell you terrible things about a whole bunch of, you know, but the actual ability of saying, here's why you should kind of move in our direction, I think that's that's the marketing that's going to hold better value And yeah, fear is evocative. And, you know, I don't know that we should be making those decisions based off emotions. I want to make it make an informed, logical decision. And, you know, I had it in my notes here and I've read it so many times and I'm like, if this fits here, do I throw it into this fits here? And so the importance of discerning between is extreme viewpoints and the much more nuanced reality. And I think the reality has to be more nuance, like, I don't want a 32nd YouTube ad to sway my decision. Like, that's just that's, you know, like, you know, I don't want that to do it for anyone, like, right. And yet, like, if it's creating, like, oh, you know, jobs in health care and, you know, your rights as an individual and it feels threatened, it's like, oh, okay. Yeah, no, I don't want that. It's like. Why am I letting this short snippet inform a decision that's so important and so significant and so making sure we are looking at that nuanced reality? Yeah, I think it's great. And, you know, I think the the last one, I think maybe to talk about us a little bit about just self-reflection and you know, with all of that before we react, pours a little bit of forward, we're fearful of it and pause and think we know why. Why are we having this reactions? And, you know, I've had ads that stir something up in me and, you know, I it's easy to do, but usually I'll step back and just kind of go, okay, why did I have that reaction? What's the you know, the belief that for me is important or the value that's important that's causing that emotion because we go through this, you know, we'll always make better decisions or at least decisions that we're more comfortable with if we take that time to just just take a moment and pause and think about it. And why is one view versus. And. Self-reflection and maybe even some open, I would say, in in spaces where we feel safe to do so, creating more open dialog and open discussions and being able to explore our true beliefs. You know, so often in therapy setting, like, you know, if someone's like, I want to think about, I want to think about that. And I'm like, we have this conversation of like. Are we ever going to resolve it if we're never spending time thinking about it? And so if we're not spending the time to really kind of bring it to light and understand it and look at it from different angles and scrutinize it, it's just kind of it's going to linger there in the shadows. And we don't know where it starts. We don't know where it stops. And I think these beliefs or these reactions of responses are very much the same. And we need to be honest, whether it's in self-reflection or maybe, you know, to our families, loved one. How I'm feeling a certain way about that. Again, if we can stop and talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. And and I mean, I, I love the political conversations I have with people in life. And I don't hear a lot of people say that. And and the reason I think. I do. Is that it's. I want to hear the other opinions. I want to hear the other sides. I want it to make me think and not react. And at the end of the day, I'm going to react when I vote. That's going to happen. But it's not going to be because I'm angry. It's probably not going to be because I'm anxious. It's probably going to be because. I took time to thoughtfully think. And you know, I'm sure emotions get in there somewhere, but it's worth listening. And I you know, as I think I've learned so much from, you know, patients and friends that have different beliefs. And, you know, I think that's what makes our political system so great, is don't want to hear just one side. Yeah, yeah, I want to hear both. And I don't want to agree on everything. And, you know, I've yet to find, I think, any political view that I'm 100% in agreement with all the time. And that's good. I think that's that's the positive and not necessarily as a as a means of managing stress. But it's something I do think is important, is, you know, if you have the opportunity to vote, I think you should go and vote. And, you know, again, you're free to make those choices. But I don't care what candidate you vote for, but go and vote and vote informed, I guess, you know. And so being able to have that information for yourself and doing so from a place that says, okay, I'm taking a step that feels like it's a good fit for me versus I'm, I'm reacting in a way that's uninformed. And yeah, I don't think that that's ever a bad thing. I think and I'm glad you brought that point, because I do think that's what empowers all of us. You know, as as you know, we're talking of American politics. So, you know, in in the United States, that is and is the power that we have now. And I think that you're right. I think when we go in and we make that decision, win or lose. It does give us that sense that we are part of the process. Good or bad, it's we're still part of it. Absolutely. And with that, we hope you enjoyed this episode. Join us in two weeks. But until then, we will stay sight. The information contained in this podcast and on the site. The practice website is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 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