Masters in Practice episode: Mindful Self Compassion for Burnout w/ Dr. Chris Germer

Join Ray and Paul as they sit down with Dr. Chris Germer, author of 'Mindful Self-Compassion for Burnout,' to explore the powerful connection between self-compassion and overcoming burnout.  Burnout is part of the human experience—but what if we learned to treat ourselves with the kindness we deserve? Dr. Germer breaks down the practice of self-compassion, sharing how it can help us recover, set boundaries, and find resilience. Learn practical strategies to address burnout, embrace difficult emotions like grief and shame, and enhance your professional empathy. Tune in for valuable insights and start your journey to self-compassion today! Enjoy this Masters in Practice episode: Mindful Self Compassion for Burnout w/ Dr. Chris Germer

New Book: https://www.guilford.com/books/Mindful-Self-Compassion-for-Burnout/Neff- Germer/9781462550227

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Transcript

Masters in Practice episode: Mindful Self Compassion for Burnout w/ Dr. Chris Germer
Hey everyone, welcome to the Site to Practice Podcast your one stop for practical and useful clinical information. Masterful insight from experts in the field and the Guide to Daily Living. We are your hosts, Ray Christner And Paul Wagner. And Paul, we today got another Masters in practice episode and one that I think is just an incredible topic. And we had a chance to talk to Dr. Chris Germer about self-compassion and burnout. Yeah. And you know, the I always loved it. We've been doing some of these episodes where we have a chance to really talk to the authors of whether they're books that are releasing or books that have already been established. And, you know, this was such a the the book itself was so useful and so valuable that, you know, the resources in the way that it worked on the information. And then, you know, this episode just a great complement to that and really being able to tease out some of the nuances of it. And, you know, I just, you know, Chris was just so insightful and you could just tell the, you know, the passion that he has for self-compassion. And, you know, I think that certainly stood out in the episode. Yeah. And yeah. So so Chris and Dr. Christian Neff, their book that is coming out right as you all are probably hearing this episode, it's called Mindful Self-compassion for Burnout Tools to Help You Heal and Recharge when you're wrung out by stress. And, you know, for me, this was just a really easy read. And I agree. So, so great to talk to the author. And, you know, he brought a few points, I thought, to life for me. And so it was good. So as you were kind of as we're processing this interview, what was your your one of your takeaways? You know, he had just so many, you know, again, with his just how how much he enjoys this topic. He had a lot of great takeaways so that, you know, there were so many. But one that really stood out to me was he shared the idea of the door to self. Compassion has to be open by encouraging to serve goodness. And you know, within the episode he goes in-depth more on that. And you know how oftentimes that can be a barrier to us really engaging in the self-compassion. And, you know, it just stood out as like such a such a powerful thing. Yeah. You know, I agree with you. I think there were so many takeaways. I, I had notes all over the place and, you know, tried to narrow it down as difficult. You know, the one I think is just kind of bring up at this point is he has a quote partway, I think in the early part of the interview that he said burnout is part of the human condition. And, you know, I think that you know, I know we've both talked about this before. You know, more and more we're hearing about professionals in our own field that are burning out and then other helping professions. But I think this idea of burnout, I mean, it's it's so profound right now. And and I think recognizing it and having some strategies to help with it, I think was what made I think the interview and this this book such a powerful companion. So, yeah, what what a great interview to have today. So I want to just for those of you who are not familiar with Chris Girma, he's a clinical psychologist and a lecturer on psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. And as you'll hear when he talks about that, kind of his kind of upbringing through the field of psychology is a long term practitioner of mindfulness meditation. And he has written a number of of books that we will have on our website. And again, his new book with Dr. Christian Ness is Mindful Self-compassion for Burnout. So please check it out. And with that, we hope you enjoy this masters and Practice episode Self-compassion for Burnout. Chris, welcome to this Like to Practice podcast. We're so excited to have you here today and talk about a topic that we haven't covered yet, but one that know I think this field really needs to start paying a lot of attention to. So thanks for joining us. Thanks. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. So we're going to spend some time here talking about the new book that you have coming out here soon. But before we kind of dove into that topic, we like to have our guests kind of share a little bit about themselves and let our our audience kind of get to know people a little bit. So we always like to start out it. Tell us a little bit about how did you get into working in the field of mental health or psychology to begin with? What was your path into the field? Oh, that goes way back. We don't want to go that far back, however. Yeah, I've always been interested in psychological matters. You know, I had a course on this in high school and it just turned me on. And then I went to college in music and was a major in psychology. So I've had a pretty, you might say, boring career path in so far as it's been pretty singular. You know, I've been interested in psychology always, always. And after I graduated from college, I went abroad and particularly spent a year in India, wandering around India, meeting with saints and sages in India and learning meditation. And that just completely blew me away, because what I realized is that the contemplative wisdom in India, Buddhism and some of the ancient Vedic practices was just. Mind boggling. And to me, what we were doing in the West was in its infancy compared to what has been going on for thousands of years in Asia. And so at that time, I kind of committed myself, not particularly explicitly, but in my spirit, to bring some of this extraordinary insight and wisdom about human human beings and human psychology into Western scientific psychology, in particular psychotherapy. And so after that India experience, I got into graduate school, became a clinical psychologist, and after that I got involved here at Harvard Medical School with a group that was integrating Buddhist psychology, which is more secular, you might say, than some other forms of contemplative practice integrating Buddhist psychology, particularly mindfulness, into psychotherapy. And I've been doing that pretty steadfastly since 1985. And then I got really interested in self-compassion in 2006 because I was suffering for the longest time from public speaking anxiety, 20 years of public speaking anxiety after getting a Ph.D. in clinical psychology with a specialization in anxiety disorders. Nothing. Nothing I did would help. And definitely mindfulness meditation didn't help me either until I learned self-compassion, until I started just loving myself because I was a broken person who couldn't speak in public. And that's self-compassion. And so when I started to do that and the public speaking, anxiety just just vanished. And then after that, I met Kristin Neff, who is the foremost researcher in the field of self-compassion. So pretty much since 2006 until now, in other words, 18 years, that's been the focal point, integrating self-compassion into scientific psychology, particularly into psychotherapy, all in the context of mindfulness. Yeah, it's a great kind of segway into us talking a little bit about kind of what inspired your book. So we were we were so grateful that Guilford gave us kind of an early copy and we had a chance to read through this and prepare for this. But, you know, as I as I read through the book, you know, I heard so many of people in this career, you know, things that have been said and where people, you know, especially I think since COVID, how many people have been feeling burnout? So, you know, your book about self-compassion and burnout I think is so timely. What led you and Kristin to write this book? Yeah, burnout and burnout make sense? Yeah. So during the pandemic, Kristin in particular was feeling burned out and she said, Hey, Chris, why don't we write a book on burnout? You know, because isn't it true that, you know, we learn the most when we're figuring out an answer to our own troubles? So she was feeling burnout because she has a son with autism who was home and she had to do a heck of a lot with her son that she didn't usually have to do. Plus, her mother moved in, so she was in a sandwich situation and yeah, so she was burned out and she just really wanted to dig into this more deeply and also see if self-compassion could help because the research already had been pretty clear that self-compassion is an antidote to burnout. So she asked me, Do you want to do this? I said, Kristin, you're asking the wrong guy. You know, this is I'm also burned out, you know, because I actually had a contract to write a book on Shame with Guilford Press and and it was just going nowhere. I just couldn't write and. You know, my signs of burnout was a kind of and we, you know, are kind of like, why am I doing this? And and I can't do this. And and then when people would ask me to do things, I just kind of resented it. You know, this was I was definitely burned out. You know, the three hallmarks of burnout are, number one, a sense of exhaustion. And number two, a kind of depersonalization or just kind of. Detachment from what we're doing. And and then part three is not feeling productive or confident. So. So I had all those things. But for me, Ray, the, the, that experience actually overlapped not just. It wasn't just a common thing. It overlapped with my age, you know. So I had turned 69, almost 70. And I was looking at the rest of my life as many people in my generation during COVID, when we were all in sort of a force free trade situation and saying, What have I been doing? Do I want to do this? Do I want to continue to do this? You know, in other words, there was a little bit of a, you know, life transition crisis situation. And and it became crystal clear to me that I had done a lot in the world until that age in an external way, definitely on the foundation of inner work and inner development. But my true love since I was in my twenties, since this, in the experience that I mentioned to you, is meditation and inner practice and inner growth. And, you know, this is why I'm interested in psychology in the first place, but I really love meditation. And so, you know, self-compassion is kind of a. As a tender aspect and a fierce aspect. So the tender aspect was more or less saying, Chris, you only have ten years left or 20 years left. You know, the chances of you living another 30 years is pretty slim. What's it going to be? What do you want? What do you really want? So this is this was a really self compassionate question that I was capable of asking myself at this time. And the answer was, I want to meditate more. I want to drop in more. I have put out so much now I want to go in. In other words, change the balance. And then the fierce self-compassion side, which is kind of like a good coach or a tough mama or something. Said, You can do this, Chris. If you do this, your world is not going to fall apart. You know, you can you can do this. You can figure this out. And then I did it. Then I decided, okay, I'm going to have no meetings until 12 noon from waking up till 12 noon. I'm clear. And I can just spend all that time meditating, reading, going inward, nourishing the spirit. And then after 12. I can work. And so I've been doing that pretty consistently for the last two and a half years. And I think my wife would say I'm a much happier person. I would do it. But this was this was really. I was definitely burned out. But but self-compassion really came to my rescue by being able to truly honor. To see and to honor what needed to be honored at this phase in my life where I could not go further doing what I'd been doing. And then it also gave me the strength to make that change. And it's been so rewarding ever since. Yeah. You know, it's I think one of the things when I when I first saw the book and started reading it, I think the idea of the self-compassion was such an interest, because when we hear about burnout, most people's solutions seem to be external. Great. It's just jobs. Or do you know and I write as I read it and and we'll get to some of the details throughout this are usually eye opening to me like it was it was it was kind of interesting because I as I was going through, I kind of went, okay, maybe I'm more burned out than I think that I am. So that's number one. So it was like a little self-awareness kind of pops in. But I thought throughout it, though, I love the idea of this inward work and this idea of how do we really kind of treat ourselves? And I'm not aware of another book on a topic of burnout that takes that approach. And for me, I was like, Wow, this. I just think it's going to resonate with people because it's just a different way to look at it. And so, yeah, I really, really appreciated it and kind of got that, got that feel as well. So. And I can't help but think like there's just kind of like the buzzword term of self-care that is so often paired with, with burnout. And really, I think self-care is integral that self-compassion is the process and it really allows us to recognize to what depth or to know what the experience that we get when we're engaging in the self-care because we can take the time off or we can make those changes, whether it's external or internal changes. But if we truly give ourselves that permission, that compassionate permission to experience it versus just doing it, I think it changes that. And we, you know, maybe some nominal changes when we're just going through the motions. But when you give yourself that true permission to say no meetings until 12, you know, this is time for me. And this I'm nourishing myself that full permission to experience it versus just doing it and so valuable. Yeah. Paul So, you know, the relationship between self-care and self-compassion is really interesting and I think you kind of put your finger on it. When people think about self-care, they usually, as you said, think of something they should do, you know, like get a massage or take a vacation or cut down on our caseload and and all of those things can be helpful. But there are two problems. First of all, when we're burned out, we don't want to have to do one more thing. You know, we don't have any room to to get a massage or something, you know? It's just not part of the equation. We can't add anything to our lives, you know? So there's that. But the other thing is that, you know, after we take a vacation, if we drop back into the same situation, we're going to quickly return to the same state of mind unless something changes. And that means something changes internally and also that something changes externally in terms of the the conditions that have led to burnout. And it's really important to do that analysis. It's really important to do that introspection so that there is actually substantive change in our lives, not just like a mini break. You know, a mini break is good. It's it's part of self-compassion, but it's not the it's not the yes. And self-compassion is is so deep and so subtle and so diverse. And we hope that this book actually communicated some of that because the reasons that people burn out are also quite different. In other words, some people burn out like I did because my core values weren't honored, you know? But some people burn out because they're being disrespected at work and they can't say no. Or some people burn out because they have a perfectionist streak, you know, or some people burn out because the conditions of their workplace, like during the pandemic, became impossible. So each of the reasons why we burnout actually can be addressed with self-compassion, and that's ultimately what will reverse burnout. But it's important to know what that is. And if we don't look inward and we just like get a massage or take a vacation, it's not going to work. One of my favorite parts of the book, and it's always kind of interesting, you know, when you read a whole book, there's just certain things that I you just kind of straight you was when you all talked about the paradox of self-compassion and you know, it was it honestly made me kind of chocolate first partially because of the kind of quote about buying the book and beginning the paradox. But you share with everybody what what the paradox says. Yeah, well, two things. First of all, Ray, I want to thank you for reading the whole book. Okay? So most people who do interviews don't do that. You're done due diligence, and I'm honored by it. Second of all, you picked out the essence of this whole thing, you know, in other words, there is this thing called the core paradox of self-compassion, which is when we're suffering, we give ourselves compassion not to feel better, but because we feel bad. And the reason why this is potentially a little shocking is because people only buy a book like this because they want to feel better, and then they hear, Well, I don't try to feel better anyway. The good news is, is that if we learn to just be kind to ourselves because we're suffering, say, like a parent is taking care of a child with a flu that is going to last for five days and it's the first day you're just being kind to the child, that child's suffering. Similarly, we need to be kind to ourselves simply because we're burned out, not, as it were, a strategy to get rid of burnout. Because if we do that, then it's in the service of resistance. And one thing we know very clearly, especially nowadays from the research, is what we resist persists. So that's one core paradox when when we suffer, we get when we practice self-compassion not to feel better, but because we feel bad. In other words, just learning to love ourselves up because we're suffering. That's where the magic happens. That's where where we're actually at a very deep level, a transformation occurs. But then there's another one, and that is when you when we suffer, we practice self-compassion, not to perfect ourselves, which, of course, is impossible. I mean, we can't become perfect. You know, we're all imperfect human human beings. We practice self-compassion, not to perfect ourselves, but to perfect our love. In other words, to actually learn to respond to suffering with warmth and kindness and understanding and mercy and compassion. This is radically transformative. And people know this when they're suffering and they receive. That kind of care from others. It is deeply healing. But we don't do that with ourselves. So this is an invitation. It's an invitation when we're burned out to be able to admit we're burned out to know this is not a crime. It's actually a sign that we're human. But then the magic occurs when we learn how when we give ourselves permission and we learn how to hold ourselves in a loving embrace simply because we're suffering from burnout or just about anything, really. But what is it like to respond in a natural, spontaneous way with kindness rather than the usual way that we do that when we're suffering? Which is by criticizing ourselves. Alienating ourselves. Ruminating, you know, what would it be like to respond with kindness? That's the invitation. And I think your comment there about alienating ourselves, I think, lends itself so well to, you know, one of those three constructs in terms of challenging burnout, which is the common humanity side of that, and really working to recognize how prevalent this piece is and how isolating burnout makes us feel. And and we withdraw, we pull back. And the value of challenging that, of giving ourselves this kindness that it invites others in or invites us to experience that compassion moment invites us to experience others in a way. Yeah. And at least that was one of those, those takeaways. And when we were kind of starting our conversation earlier, like I certainly heard the, you know, the background between mindfulness and just early on in your life. It was important and significance that that held. And then as well as the self-compassion element. And I'm curious, where did where did this concept of the common humanity really come in and how did that start to be a part of the conversation as well to really challenge burnout? Yeah. So, so first of all, thank you for highlighting what is probably one of the most subtle and transformative aspects of self-compassion then. And so in Kristin Neff definition, which she built a scale around back in 2003, self-compassion has three parts. It has mindfulness. In other words, knowing what we're experiencing while we're experiencing it. Number two is common humanity, which is you're not alone in the midst of suffering. And part three is self kindness and other quality of warmth and connection. So she introduced this notion of common humanity. There are other definitions of compassion which also have the element of common humanity, because compassion is is essentially about empathic and cognitive connection and the wish to alleviate suffering. So there's a ton of connection and common humanity in compassion. But in particular, when we're suffering from burnout, one of the three components of burnout is depersonalization. In other words, we feel really spaced out. We become, for example, if you're a therapist, you'll become cynical about people you're supposed to love if or or or you just feel, you know, critical or resentful or just not. They're spaced out as this is a central part of burnout. And so one of the real heartaches that comes for people and also what even leads to self criticism is why do I hate the people I'm supposed to love, I'm supposed to care for? I'm not caring for them. I'm resenting them. So this is the opposite of common humanity. This is this is actually a rather. Rather poignant pain that people suffer from. You know, actually, it's called moral injury. You know, when we feel that we're not doing what we feel called to do, in fact, when we feel like we're harming those we're supposed to help, we have moral injury. And this this is actually causes a significant amount of burnout. And physicians talk about this all the time. And so what self-compassion does is by directly encouraging us to reconnect, pull first with ourselves, in other words, first with our own pain. And when we can reconnect with our own pain and nourish ourselves, we then have the capacity to feel connected to other people. But the other thing it does with common humanity directly when we think of self compassion for burnout is is to recognize that burnout is part of the human condition. People have been talking about burnout for over a thousand years in different language. This is what happens when we're under chronic stress, when there is an imbalance between what we're putting out and what we are receiving. You know, that's stress. And so, too, to recognize that burnout itself is part of the human condition. We can then begin to, like, get out of our own way, begin to connect with other people. And for some people, this is the doorway to overcoming burnout, self-care, common humanity. And the examples in the book they were and the imagery behind them was so evocative. And I believe it was actually the first two that are coming to mind is the, you know, the child that falls. And we immediately scooped them up. And, you know, we're not then being critical and we're not being judgmental, but we're being that kind and caring and compassionate towards them, that nurturing towards them. And I believe the other one was the father recognizing the significance when one of our close friends is struggling with grief and just the value of being present with them and how how connective that can be and that compassion of being present with them and connecting. And so I think it really pulls on something that I think is a common therapeutic tool. But I don't know that we always really recognized the compassion in it when we maybe challenge individuals, say, you know, this was your best friend you were talking to or you know, this is someone that we were really judging with unconditional positive regard. How would it change our experience and how do we apply that to ourselves? But really, self-compassion takes it again from an action to an experience I hear, and really finding that allows that to be a much deeper part. Yeah. So you put your finger on what we might say is the. Informal definition of self-compassion, which is treating ourselves with the same kindness and understanding as we would treat a good friend. And we don't do that. You know, there's the saying If we treated others like we treat ourselves, we'd have no friends. Right. We don't do that. But what's interesting also in terms of, for example, psychotherapy is I once had a client who was a social worker and she was she she was harming herself. She was burning herself. But and when I would talk to her about this, it was like talking to a wall. But when I asked her, How would you talk to one of your clients who was burning themselves? And she said, Oh, I would say, Oh, honey, I'm so sorry. You must be in so much pain that you would do this to yourself. I wonder if there is some way we can alleviate your suffering in a way that's not going to hurt you. You know, see, she like said the things I wanted to say in a way that would land. But it landed for her because she thought about how compassionate she naturally is towards somebody else. And then all we need to do is make a little U-turn, like to give this to ourselves. And in her case, it worked like magic. So anyhow, we're all naturally more compassionate toward others. Not all 80% of us are more compassionate toward others than ourselves. So when we wonder, how can I be more self compassionate? One of the key questions is How would you treat a friend and treat yourself in the same way? And any recommendations for not again going back to the self care versus self-compassion, not just treating ourselves in that way, but believing that as well, and really again, embracing it like that. When you were giving your example earlier about like really you're experienced or, you know, through COVID and that pivotal time and the way that self-compassion came to you, you know, it was a tender and a fierce way, giving yourself this permission and truly believing in it. And that's that's the part I find is, you know, often the most challenging when I'm working with clients and, you know, kind of engaging in this without really having the language for. But it's not only doing the actions, cultivating the beliefs and the true experience of it, though. Yeah. So especially working with clients, the issue of deserving ness is, is really front and center. Mm hmm. So what does it take to give oneself permission? You know, sometimes therapists try to teach people how to do this, but their clients are not giving themselves permission. You know, so it just falls on deaf ears and it doesn't work. Because actually another thing happens when people start being kind to themselves. When they feel they don't deserve it, then they actually feel worse, you know? And they're confused about why am I feeling worse when I do self-compassion. Obviously, I'm lousy at that, too, you know, so it's it can be quite a recursive but negative role. So what you're pointing out, Paul, really importantly is, is somehow the door of our heart has to open. We have to feel like a little deserving. And so there are a number of ways to approach this. One is what you've just alluded to before, which is how would I treat a friend? And actually so, for example, I had a client who really didn't take very good care of herself, but she took really good care of her dog. And so she started to easily use language which cultivated intention. A positive intention to care for her dog. So she would say to herself on a regular basis, May Ginger be safe, may Ginger be happy, may Ginger be strong. May Ginger be healthy. And then she added herself to the circle of compassion. After a while, like after a few months, may Ginger and I be safe knowing Ginger needed her. May Ginger and I be healthy. May Ginger and I be strong. And then after a year and a half, she came into my office and with tears. And we actually we both wept because she said, Chris, I can say it for myself. I can say it for myself. Such such a beautiful triumph and so true. So one way to find our way back to ourselves is by harnessing the natural compassion that we have for others. Another way that we feel more entitled to care for ourselves is if we actually open to the pain that we're feeling. So, for example, I was really open to the anguish of not being able to write this book for Guilford Press. And I was really open to how it seemed like I didn't have many years left on this planet, i.e. a kind of acute sense of mortality. I was really open to the kind of the pain of it all. And when that happens, in other words, when the heart kind of breaks, breaks open, like when we really, really when we're not just like gnashing our teeth about something, but really feeling the enormity of our struggle. This is called mindfulness. Actually, mindfulness is not just naming things, but actually feeling it. And when we actually feel when our heart breaks open from deep feeling, then compassion has a chance to fall in. Yeah. So this is another aspect to this. And usually people try to kind of do a bypass because they don't want to feel it. But what they need to know is that when we are ready with compassion, our hearts can break open because we will not be shattered. We will be held. Yeah. And I can't help but relate that to. I've been on a streak of talking about grief recently and probably over the past three or four weeks it's come up, you know, maybe 20, maybe 30 times or so in various sessions. And one of the pieces that has really been kind of a talking point, I think, throughout all of those is grief signify or grief giving significance to those in whether it's an individual loss or a circumstance that has changed. And recognizing the significance in that discomfort and in doing so, it allows us to experience it more fully, but also gives ourselves that permission to accept more fully as well and allows us to then, you know, both be present as well as being able to move forward without a sense of guilt. And I can't help but kind of connected the way self-compassion allows for that through that vulnerability and really being intentional of experiencing the discomfort to then also allow us to then cure a bit more fully as well. Yes. Yes. So that is a beautiful example you're giving, Paul. And and I can tell you that when my experience with public speaking anxiety. You know, it has some similarities to what you're describing because for me it was overwhelming and my mindfulness practice was not sufficient to hold and open to. The enormity of public speaking anxiety, because what was behind it for me was shame. And I couldn't see the shame. I couldn't feel the shame, so I couldn't make room for the shame. I couldn't accept the shame. I couldn't be mindful of shame. But when I started to just love myself because I couldn't speak in public, when I started to recognize, first of all, hey, there's shame behind this. But most importantly, by just loving myself. For in my imperfect, flailing way. It dismantled the shame. Yeah. Bottom line is, is that sometimes like when we are in the grip of intense and disturbing emotions like grief. Like intense grief that that just shatters the sense of self or shame, that shatters a sense of self or despair that shatters the sense of self. How can we hold that experience? And the answer, in my view, is by first holding ourselves, by first learning to hold ourselves. And that's that's the contribution of self-compassion to mindfulness. When we are really struggling, we first hold ourselves in the same way. If we're really struggling and someone we love or loves us holds us. At some point we can settle down and we can actually see what's going on. So first we hold ourselves and then we can hold our experience and hope. And this, I think, is one of the real. This is what therapists have been doing for the last hundred years. But now we're learning how to teach our clients to do this for themselves. In other words, we're not just hoping that our clients will internalize us and, you know, take this, you know. Benevolent conversation home and relate to themselves benevolently. We're teaching them how to hold yourself so that you can hold your experience. This is kind of new in the field and it has those elements of like sharing and basis with a more direct, diverse area and in the sense of we're teaching the self-compassion rather than just, you know in a non directive way, giving that unconditional positive regard and in doing so making it a more active process and something that can be pulled upon rather than just experienced. You know, Chris, as you were kind of talking, I was thinking in the last few years, one of the increases I've seen was with patients that I work with or how many are in the helping profession. And when we start talking about things like self-compassion, I often times hear that they feel guilt about that. They're there to help everybody else. And that I've even had some people say it was narcissistic to do that, which, you know, which gets thrown around that words often. But, you know, so when you're when you have people that are kind of feeling that way that they, you know, maybe they're not even recognizing burnout. I mean, I think they come in and they're like, oh, I'm just feeling anxious or I'm depressed. But much of it, I think, gets routed into this burnout. How do you approach that with people when they have those thoughts, that there is a selfishness about being self-compassion? Well, first I'd normalize it because the term self-compassion is kind of tricky. You know, most people, when they think of self, they immediately start thinking of selfish. Yeah. Or narcissism, you know, like just what we need more self centered ness, you know, like, so the concern is that basically the term is, is not necessarily so great. So another way to think about it is inner compassion. You know, there's outer compassion. There's inner compassion. And. And most of us, frankly, are not there. Their compassion does not include themselves. So what we're doing is actually a relatively humble enterprise. We're just including ourselves in the circle of compassion, you know, like painting ourselves into the corner of the picture, but at least within the frame, you know, this is self-compassion is just trying to correct an imbalance. And when we feel that doing that is selfish, that's actually the problem, because the research rate is overwhelming. 7000 articles in the academic literature now on self-compassion. And, you know, they they show a number of things. One is that, of course, it's, you know, amazing mechanism for emotion, regulation and resilience. But one of the things that shows is that as we grow in self-compassion, we actually grow in compassion for others. And and when it's hard to be and what we've found with burnout research is when it's hard to be compassionate with others. The it is a necessity, not a luxury, but it's a necessity to begin to care for ourselves more fully so that we can care for others. So as far as selfishness, the research clearly shows that it is not so. And then the other problem with the word self-compassion, by the way, is compassion, because people think compassion is weak or it's going to make them weaker, or mostly people, when they hear compassion, they think, Oh, no, I don't need any more of that. I'm already too sensitive to the needs of others to overwhelm. Please don't take. Don't expect me to be more compassionate. Yeah, but what we know is that compassion is also fierce. It's also tough. It can also help us to, you know, draw a boundary. It can also help us to care for ourselves in a fierce way, even if others can't see us or don't care. So compassion actually is associated with emotional resilience and with strength. And compassion is associate self-compassion is associated with also kindness toward others. In the research, yeah. And I know we've kind of talked about that kind of formidable duo, that fierce and tender self-compassion a few times. And that was another, I think, piece of the book as I read it that really resonated with me and I think. I'm glad you brought it up again, because I think that we we don't realize the fierceness of it and how that that balancing peace, like if we're going to stand up and set boundaries, that comes with the fierceness of self-compassion. And I thought that that part of the book and even where you kind of talk about anger and how that that energizes like there's there's a positive way. I think, you know, many times I hear people, you know, thinking of all these emotions as just negative aspects and flipping the script on that and saying, you know, this anger has a quality to it. There's something that is is usable in yourself, has compassion. I really appreciate that. I thought that that resonated really well with me. And I, you know, as as I'm kind of looking at how to use this with other people, I think that's a real just it's such a different take, I think for people because you're right compassion. I'm I'm going to stereotype a little bit but men I work with mostly with what I think, you know, come across, you know, that that that's a weakness. You know, I don't want to I don't want to show that side. So I loves how you positioned those together. I think it really then as we were get into maybe a little bit of the skills here in a second, I think it really it lends itself well to that. Appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. And for for burnout, we really do need both. We need to nourish our ourselves, our hearts. We need to take good care of ourselves because we're depleted. But but we also need to make sure we don't get depleted again. And in order to do that, we got to step up, you know? Yeah. So so as we're kind of coming toward, you know, our time here, it's like maybe if we can transition to a little bit about some simple skills maybe to kind of introduce to people. I know there's a lot in the book and you know what was said, but what are some so maybe some practical tips that you would have that might help the impact in daily life over. Yeah. So, so the book itself has 21 skills. And as I said earlier, if a person is, say, on the road to burnout or they're already feeling burned out, they really need to kind of assess the problem. You know, in other words, how does work stress or how does burnout manifests in my life? And then what could I do that might help with that particular dilemma? Right. And so, for example, if if someone just has never learned how to say no, we have a practice in the book on setting a boundary like how to do this, you know, you know, even even finding a way to stand up straight, roll your shoulders back, claiming the way you feel, and then deciding whether or not you're going to let this happen again. You know, they're tapping, you might say, the fierce self-compassion. Some people are too perfectionistic. You know, they they think, you know, good enough is never good enough. And actually, it isn't. No matter what I do, I still don't feel good about myself. So that's actually usually a shame issue. You know, so then it's important to address shame with self-compassion. Some people, for example, are inherently anxious and then their work place just tips them over the edge, you know, so then they need to calm their body. So in the book we talk about affectionate breathing, which is feeling the rhythm of your breath, the flowing in and the flowing out, and allowing yourself to be internally rocked and caressed by the movement of your breath. This is something you can take into the workplace. You can do it, you know, in a car, in a traffic jam or whatever. Some people have compassion fatigue or empathy fatigue. Some people are just drained by the enormity of the suffering of other people. And then they need to learn something called equanimity, which means to we actually have a phrase, you know, I am not the cause of this person's suffering, nor well, it starts with everyone is on their own life journey. I am not the cause of this person's suffering, nor is it entirely in my power to take it away, no matter how much I wish I could. So this is equanimity. This is it actually separates us from the suffering of our clients or, you know, our patients or whomever, enough that we can begin to nourish ourselves. Another issue might be core values. For me it was core values, you know, and then to affirm your core values. So these are all self-compassion practices. The one that I think is really undervalued is savoring because when we're burned out, there's no joy in our lives. And often people are burned out. They look back and say, When was the last time that they experienced joy? And they think, Oh, this is embarrassing. I can't remember. Even when I was on vacation, I was just gnashing my teeth. So what does it take to re-experience joy? So to savor, to give ourselves permission to notice the little things in life that bring that naturally bring us joy, not things we're trying to enjoy, but things we naturally enjoy. So these are, for example, six or seven practices which are, you can say, responses to the particular aspect of burnout that a person might be struggling with. And I love that the savoring the good or the I think I think in the book you make any maybe it's small pleasures I think you use. Yeah we did an episode not too long ago where we were talking about how much for how much you watch tick tock. But there was a whole tick tock thing about what they called little treats culture and people just giving themselves these little things to to just savor small pleasures, whether it's even just treating yourself to a nice cup of coffee. And yeah, you said it when I was reading that section of the book, it kind of cued me because I'm like, yeah, like there are so much and it's, it's a lot about big things. You're right. It's these little things that truly, I think, bring joy. Yeah. You know, it's the big things are great, don't get me wrong. But it's, you know, when you really look back on it that that I love the fact you use the term small pleasures because I thought that was for me again one of those things where I went yeah that's when, that's when it's good, right? Yeah, I know. Lives are made up of moments aren't they. Yeah. Like at the end of the day we could say, oh, I had a lucky marriage or a lucky job or lucky whatever, you know. But there's so many people who are really blessed with a lot, but they're not happy because. They're not appreciating their moments. Yeah, no, this is all we have. Yeah, yeah, it is. It's it's it's such a it's such a special thing. And I. My my kids are adults now. And, you know, when we talk about things that they savor in their life, I, I'm thinking there is they all these big trips we've taken and everything and it's Oh, I love when we went to breakfast, you know, when you didn't have to work on Saturday and you could do those little things, I mean. Yeah, I think we're talking about self-compassion, but I think I think you said this in a different form earlier is when we do that for ourselves, the impact it also have on others in our lives is, I think, so important to look at as well. So it's really good stuff. Yeah, when we taught at Dell Medical Center, self-compassion to the staff, one of the interesting things we noticed is that people who didn't even take the course when they noticed a colleague of theirs, particularly one whom they admired, say something like, I want to answer your question, but right now I need 5 minutes because I need to get some food and I need to calm down after what I've just been through. Yeah. Can I get back to you? So when and so when somebody hears this coming from a colleague, they then think, oh, cool, now I can do that. So what we found is that the reason why we call the program Self-compassion and Health Care Communities, which is a six hour training for health care, is because we found that it was actually impacting the community in ways that we hadn't even imagined. So just to just to highlight what you had said is that when we care for ourselves, when we when we savor things like if you're sitting at dinner with somebody who's really enjoying the food, you're going to like it better. And when somebody is caring for themselves in a stressful situation, you're going to have permission to do it. So ultimately, what we do for ourselves when we're compassionate with ourselves, it can be the best thing that we do for our loved ones. And I think even on our show, I've mentioned this before, but it's probably one of the most profound quotes that that's just stuck with me for a number of years, that Marianne Williamson's our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, and especially at the end of her quote, it's, you know, and as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others. You know, that's just been running in the back of my mind so many times for this conversation, because really, as we are liberated, that is the compassion. You know, we aren't being held know are being held down or we're constricted by it, but truly freed and people notice and people then feel empowered. That's beautiful. Thank you for thank you for reading that, Paul. Yeah, so true. So true. Now we can uplift others by uplifting ourselves. Yeah, well, Chris, this. This has been great. We can probably keep you through the evening, but we're going to respect for your time. And as we're kind of wrapping up, we like to kind of end the shows with what we call takeaways. Some things that we've that you can maybe share with our listeners. And, you know, the first question we often like to ask, you know, we're we're the site to practice podcast. So, you know, we're always interested, you know, people that do, you know, all the work that you've done in your career, what is it that keeps you psyched or motivated to continue doing what you do? Well, I think. I just think I just love when. People suffer less and they become happy, you know, and and so that keeps me safe. But in this particular subject, what I really like about it is the integration of what we do for ourselves. Is directly related to what we do in our professional lives. In other words, these are not two separate subjects. You know, it's not like I go to the Barbados and then I do therapy, you know. So it's it's it's as we love ourselves, we can love our clients more as we grow in wisdom about, you know, what goes on in our minds. We grow in wisdom about what's going on in the minds of others. So it's this integration of inner practice and outer service, which it's just an incredible gift and opportunity to be able to do what I mean, to get paid for, to grow internally and to be helpful externally and to get paid for. It is crazy. Yeah, that's right. I agree. I'm so happy that you said that. Like that was just kind of from the beginning of our conversation. I was trying to think how have a classifying the book because it's so valuable for clinicians to review, but it's valuable for the clinicians as consumers as well as, you know as providers. And you know, in both ways, you know, this helping themselves and helping others into you put that so beautiful. Thank you for that. Because I was trying to think how to conceptualize and I think it really captures both. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I do hope that clinicians take this book to heart for themselves as well as sharing it with their clients. Yeah. I will be selling the inner practice and outer service quote I like. I like that. That was a great service. So, Chris, the other thing we like to ask is, yeah, I know when we do this kind of work, there's all kinds of resources and content that we're always taking in as we're writing books and those things. If you could pick kind of one piece of content that you would recommend to others in the profession, what? What's one that you would suggest? Yeah. Well, you mentioned earlier, Rea, how fierce self-compassion was kind of an eye opener, not only in the context of what is compassion, what is self-compassion, but that it actually validates a really important part of us, even a sacred part. You know, anger or anger shows us when something sacred in us is being challenged, you know, so too. I would like to recommend that people read Kristin Ness book Fear Self-compassion, because this book helps to make this side of compassion, particularly self-compassion, to live and breathe in their lives. And so many people need that. You were talking about men, Ray, but but women in particular there are socialized to just, you know, shut down on the fear side. And so I just think for many people, it's it's it's an epiphany. It's an eye opener. It's a revelation. And it's it's good to keep in mind. Yeah, that's a it's a great suggestion. And that's actually one I haven't read. So I'm glad you kind of brought it up. I want to kind of get on my my list as well. And our last question, if you could provide our listeners or new clinicians maybe three takeaways or gems that you've learned in your career. What are what are the three takeaways you would share? No. That's a generous question. Thank you for that question. Well, in the context of what we're talking about, I would say, first of all, don't be ashamed and burn out happens. You know, one of the main reasons why we burn out is because we care. People who care about their work are more likely to burn out. People who care about people are more likely to burn out. So just to know that if you start to become cynical and so forth, that it's a sign that maybe, maybe you need to correct the balance and take better care of yourself. So I think that's I think that's really important. Another thing is, is inner life. You know, I don't think we have to say this to clinicians, but mostly in this society, the inner life is pretty marginalized or disregarded. There's so much razzmatazz, especially now with social media and all this, that the inner life, you know, with this information overload, our inner life is is getting even shorter shrift than it had before. You know, we can go to the moon, but we can stop war. You know, something's wrong with that. So. So I think I would just like to say that in my view, what goes on inside really sets the stage for what goes on outside, both in our professions as psychologists and in society. And so to just privilege in the interview a little bit more is something that I have found to be incredibly important, and I so wish that we all could do that a little more. And lastly, you know, life is so beautiful. It is so, so beautiful. I mean, suffering happens, hardship happens. Yes, yes, yes. But in the midst of it, it is always so beautiful. And so to take the time to savor, you know, we were talking about savoring before, to take this time to savor the little things, you know, even if it's, you know, the coolness of the door handle as we open the door to welcome a new client into a room, whatever it is to savor the brilliance of. This life. Giving ourselves micro moments to do this. This is not. It takes zero effort. It just takes a little orientation and permission and the wish to enjoy savoring. So that's the third thing I'd say. Savor. And I really appreciate you being here. And I know Paul and I were really looking forward to it after reading the book and this has been great. Thank you so much for taking time to just impart your knowledge to us and our listeners, and I'm looking forward to your book Doing Well. I know we have it coming, if I'm correct. September 13th is in print and a few days before that September 9th, the audio book which congratulations, they get to hear your voice once more if they get that version. So, Chris, thank you. We really appreciate it. I'm so grateful for this time together. Ray and Paul, as you've been so generous. And thank you and thank you to all your listeners for listening and to just echo that, you know, truly just talking about savoring, you know, I savored this conversation and you know, there was just so many moments where it just like the aha the connection, connectedness and being able to, you know, bringing awareness to it and being very intentional with experiencing it. And I had the thought earlier and you know, Ray had just mentioned both the print and audiobook versions and you know, I thought how lucky the, you know, the audience of the book will be to hear your voice sharing because the just the tone and the conviction. And so, you know, I can't wait for them to be able to hear that. And I also want to encourage them to have a physical copy just for the resources there. And being able to have access to that, you know, I think is so valuable. And, you know, I was even kind of reviewing earlier and thinking of a way of like sharing something like that, the letter of self-compassion, you know, even in some session sounds like, oh, like, you know, how, how can I work to cultivate that and bring that into my practice? So, you know, I'm savoring and I'm appreciating this conversation all the more. And now and, you know, if our listeners are interested in learning more and staying up to date with what's going on for you, Chris, where can they follow you at and kind of keep up to date? Yeah. So I have a website, Chris Grammer dot com. Kristin Neff, my coauthor of this book has a website, self hyphen compassion dot org. And we co-created a nonprofit organization called the Center for Mindful Self-compassion that has a ton of resources on self-compassion, including, you know, workshops on this subject. And that link is center for and see dot org. And truly hoping our audience checks that out. And for our audience again, that the book and the audiobook are releasing September 13th and I believe you can get just a few days earlier check out the e-book coming out on September 9th and I believe October 13th for the international version. I know we have a few international listeners in, so please check that out. You know, and there's just so, so much good information there. And we like to say, if you're a licensed clinician who would like to take some of this information and really kind of turning it into some credits, head over to site to practice dot com or check out the show notes. And we're hoping to kind of start exploring continuing education units for episodes. And if you're interested in hearing more and stay up to date with what's going on the site to practice, you can visit our website where you follow us on all major social media by searching site to practice. We'll be back in two weeks, but until then, be well stateside. 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