Masters in Practice: Mindfulness for Life w/ Dr. Willem Kuyken

In our latest episode of the Psyched to Practice podcast, we sit down with renowned psychologist and author Willem Kuyken for an insightful conversation about the power of mindfulness. Drawing from his new book Mindfulness for Life, Willem shares practical strategies to help us integrate mindfulness into everyday life and build mental resilience.

Throughout the episode, Willem talks about how mindfulness goes beyond meditation and can be woven into our daily routines, relationships, and decision-making processes. He clears up common misconceptions about mindfulness and offers a fresh perspective on how to cultivate a more balanced and fulfilling life. The discussion also touches on the idea of befriending our mind and body to live with more intention, presence, and purpose.

If you’re looking to explore how mindfulness can enrich both your personal and professional life, this episode offers valuable insights you won’t want to miss.

Tune in now to hear Willem’s thoughts on living a life well-lived and learn how to bring mindfulness into your own daily practices. Enjoy this Masters in Practice episode: Mindfulness for Life w/ Dr. Willem Kuyken

New Book: https://www.guilford.com/books/Mindfulness-for-Life/Willem-Kuyken/9781462543977

To hear more and stay up to date with Paul Wagner, MS, LPC and Ray Christner, Psy.D., NCSP, ABPP visit our website at:

http://www.psychedtopractice.com

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Transcript

Masters in Practice: Mindfulness for Life w/ Dr. Willem Kuyken

Hey everyone, welcome to the Psyched to Practice podcast, your one stop for practical and useful clinical information. Masterful insight from experts in the field and a guide to Daily Living, where your hosts, Ray Christner. And Paul Wagner. And Paul today, another Masters in Practice episode where we had the opportunity to talk to Willem Kuykenn, who is a professor at Oxford University, and had a chance to talk about really this idea of implementing mindfulness in life, kind of a lifestyle approach. And so another one of our episodes, we're able to talk to an author about their their book and another one that is upcoming here and releasing soon. So, you know, he has just written a book and it's in the process for mindfulness, for life. And, you know, I think over the course of the conversation, as well as going to the podcast, it really both lend themselves so well to that. Just transcendent of it is mindfulness and it is mindfulness that's presented in a way that we can utilize it throughout our lives. Yeah, it's yeah, I thought this was, I think kind of twofold for me, you know, one just really good for myself to go through it, you know, where I kind of went like, okay, these are some things where I can refine my own daily mindfulness practices, but also such a value clinically in what I can do to support individuals I work with. So I really appreciate that kind of combination. Yeah, a lot of takeaways today. What what was your focus? You know, funny you should say about the, you know, something that we can integrate in with the work with our clients, because there was a portion that was probably about midway through where, you know he's talking about one of the outcomes of therapy. And whether it's intended or not is we work to build a sense of capacity for those that we're working with. And he does a great job with No, I won't steal thunder, but like just that idea of building capacity I thought was such a cool concept and, you know one that I'm certainly going to work for it to be an intended consequence of therapy and not just an unintended one. Yeah, that was a great when that's when I actually as well kind of I love that frame of the capacity that thought that was great. Yeah. For me. And there's again kind of a lot, I think one that he mentioned early on about mindfulness was, you know, he used to comment about befriending our bodies and our mind and this idea of this connection or this relationship that we have with it. And and I've I've heard versions of that in the past, but I think the way he presents it, you know, we're or this it's almost like this lifelong partner we're creating really I thought was great. And I, you know, those of you listening and I connect to that as well, it just got me thinking a little different about just again, how I use it in my own life and how maybe I'll present mindfulness with others. So, you know, for those of you just who don't know Dr. Kuyken, as I mentioned, he is at Oxford University. He is the black professor of mindfulness and psychological science. And his work focuses on a number of areas, including preventing depression, promoting mental health and flourishing across the lifespan. As we mentioned in his book, Mindfulness for Life is going to be released soon and I hope something you all check out so great episode. Yeah and I believe this release dates you know the US release I believe is September 10th and the international is for October 25th as of right now. So certainly, you know, if it if you're listening in it's past September 10th and you're in the US, you know, give it a look and internationally, you know and later October be sure to check it out with that. We hope you enjoy this masters and Practice Episode Mindfulness for Life. Willem, welcome to the Psyched to Practice podcast. We're so glad to have you join us today. It's an absolute privilege to join you. I'm really looking forward to our discussion. Yes, us too. And you know, as I shared with you, you are our first international guests in the two years that we've done this. So we appreciate you joining us from across the pond and sharing your insights with us. What an honor. So we like on the Psych Practice podcast, we, we start out wanting to give a little bit of information to our listeners about you and just kind of get to know you a little bit. So we like to start out if maybe you could share with us a little bit about what led you into the field of mental health and psychology? What was your path into the field? I guess when I was a school in college, I started reading mainstream psychology texts. And I think I find it just fascinating to understand what makes people, what motivates people, how people think, what. Why people behave the way that they do. And that reading kind of led me to a path of thinking. Is that something I could do professionally? I guess the less the less kind of grand answer to that question is I guess I'm kind of nosy. I'm kind of nosy about people and about family and groups of people. And so I've never tired of learning about psychology and particularly think about the application of psychology. I have to say on a more serious note, though, I do think that never has there been more of a need for the application of psychology in mainstream society than now. Yeah. I think we hear that from so many of our guests. And, you know, we were sure seeing it, you know, with people that we work with on an everyday basis that was trying to handle just the everyday life. And and much of I think what we're seeing here and I think this is probably an international phenomenon, is that it's not necessarily mental health diagnoses that are people are dealing with. This is how do we just adjust to daily life? And I think that was something really I think that caught our eye when we're you know, we're talking about, you know, your new book coming out, Mindfulness for Life. I mean, I think the the real piece of that is this is really about how do we promote well-being for all? Absolutely. Absolutely. And it seems, you know, just with the international focus that you just brought to mind, more and more of the world that's living in economic security with access to education, with access to health care. And you'd think that what would follow in the tails of that is improvements in mental health and well-being. And that hasn't necessarily been the case. Right. So that feels like it's that's sort of the frontier that we're at. Okay. So we can bring people more of the world's population into economic security and education. What does it take now for it to support people to live that life, their life? Well, just so you know, as as we're you know, we mentioned your book. What what was the inspiration that led you to write this upcoming book? I mean, I guess it was professional and personal. I think mindfulness is very much in the mainstream now. And I think most people have got a view about what it is. And I think there is some recent data to suggest at least 50% of the population has tried mindfulness. But that actually also means there's lots of misunderstandings about what it is and misunderstandings about how it can be used and how it can be applied. And I think mindfulness has been a part of my personal life since my early twenties. So it feels like it's very much in the fabric of how I am and how I live my life. And so it's personally been very helpful to me and I have been doing research and teaching and training around mindfulness based applications probably for about 20, 25 years. One of the challenges I think the field faces is I think people have this idea that my promise is something that maybe you learn through an app, through people guiding practices on an app. And that's something that is the metaphor this often uses of a gym is you have to exercise the mind and if you exercise the mind, you will have fantastic focus, ability to self regulate and so on. And I my sense is the problem with that metaphor is the thing about the gym is most people join the gym and then they go for a couple of times and then they never go back again. And I think that is also true with mindfulness. And I think that the kind of modal statistic from one of those apps is that all mental health apps, as people download them, they try them on. I think it's usually about a week before people give up on mental health or mindfulness apps. So I think what the book is trying to do is to reframe it and say, is this something that we can actually weave into the fabric of people's lives without the need to actually get onto a meditation cushion every morning? Is it something that we can build into our relationships where we the way we engage with food, the way we engage with exercise, the kind of way we engage with colleagues at work and so on. So it's about trying to think about how can this be woven into the fabric of people's lives. Yeah. And I think that that as I kind of read through the version that your publisher said, that was one of the things I really appreciated. I think now the book and I'm looking forward to kind of diving into it, is that, you know, it wasn't that this is a strategy that you use. It was it's really written as this is this is a lifestyle. You know, it's that we we focus on every day and not you know, it's just that I think that I think that approach is so important because I've had many patients that I work with or clients that I work with that they go, Oh, I've done mindfulness, I've done that, I've tried it. It doesn't work. And you know, I think the difference is, is how do we really integrate it and make it part of who we are and not just some strategy that we implement. So I really appreciated that that approach that you took with this book, because I think that gives it a little different voice than what I've seen in other other books. So the way I'd respond to that kind of comment have I tried mindfulness it didn't work for me is in two ways. The first is say what you mean by mindfulness. Mindfulness. So when I think of mindfulness, I think of awareness. I think of bringing an attitude to our lives and our experience of curiosity, of kindness, of interest. And I have a third part to that, which is living aligned with my values. So you unpack that and say, well, I've tried living in line with my values and I've tried focus and I've tried managing myself and I don't have time for that. There aren't many people that say that. Actually, if you break it down into its component parts. All of us want to be able to deploy our attention well, manage ourselves well, have a sense of our values that they've been away for long. The second thing I would say about I've tried it and it's not for me, is I, I am suggesting a reframe of how we think about mindfulness practice as becoming like our best friend. So if you think and if your listeners think about your best friend, what qualities do they have and say, Well, I enjoy being with them. They have my back, they call me out, we have fun together. They're always with me through thick and thin. And even though they're sometimes a bit hard work, I'm happy to invest in this friendship. And then you do have that same relationship with your own mind and body. And we know in the mental health area that is very often not the case. Right. People have got an inner landscape kind of quite self-critical or quite judgmental, whatever it might be. No, actually, that's not the case. So can we think about mindfulness practice as being like investing in a lifelong friendship? And I think when people frame it that way, I mean, basically we are with our body and our mind from the moment we're born to the moment we die. What's not to value about defending our body and mind? I just had a friend who passed away a couple of weeks ago and a group of us were meditating with her at the end of her life every week. And we had a voice memo exchange just about two weeks before she died. And she was reflecting on this question to say, you know, my mindfulness practice has been so important to me throughout my life because it's enabled me to live with presence in my loving relationships with my friends past and present. And I thought that was such a beautiful thing to say. And she was dying the way she left. So I think my point is my practice is about befriending minds and bodies, because, after all, perhaps. What we have alongside us from the moment we're born to the moment we die. Why not develop a friendship that is based on. Respect, valuing and calling ourselves out. These kinds of qualities of courage. Of that. And, you know, I can't help but think of how well that pairs together with one of the central themes, which is a life well lived. And, you know, and I believe it's one of the earlier chapters that, you know, really emphasizing that the importance of befriending your mind and really changing that it and you know that your framing just just now talking about, you know, from the beginning of our life to our end, you know, our mind and our bodies are a companion in this journey. And so that, you know, they are an essential part to this idea of living a life well lived. And, you know, for us to all come into congruence as best we can. And so when our body feels good and our, you know, we are feeling supported and befriended by our mind, and it just exemplifies that absolute. I mean, I had a tremendous kind of moment of insight, I guess, if you like. I was doing a hiking trip across from one coast to the other of the United Kingdom, and I stopped for lunch and the cemetery and there was this headstone with the woman's name. And it just had one phrase on that, which was a life well lived. And I had another four days of hiking after that. And so I spent those four days reflecting on that question. I mean, it's a question it's a really interesting question. What does that look like? What does that mean? And it helps you kind of become, as you said, more congruent with your values and the kind of things you want to spend your time on to cultivate and invest in. And I know this can sound like a privilege to people who are struggling to make ends meet and financially and so on. But this can be in the small moments of our lives. It can be in how we connect with the people around us, our children, upon our parents. So it doesn't have to be some grand thing. It can be often very small things, the small moments of the day, which is actually so important. And I find when with when working with clients like that is one of the, I think the hardest parts to put into practice. I think, you know, we can talk about in the example I like to use often is, you know, when we're going on vacation or, you know, taking some time away, we're really looking forward to it. We start to implement those ideas hopefully. And so that way we can get the best experience we can from that time. And why aren't we doing that all of the time and not why aren't we trying to kind of really ground ourselves in enjoying the experience rather than just kind of reserving it for these moments that, you know, you know, a fraction of our time spent, you know, how do we enjoy and savor these? Like just in savoring the small things, really, and allowing ourselves and giving that permission to experience it fully rather than just trying to rush through our day. I hear that a lot, too. I think we all do and we experience it ourselves. Right? I don't have time for that. I'm way too busy. I'm running my kids to school. I've got my job to do. I've got to attend to all the email and you know, this is going to be different for everybody. And again, I like to frame that in the following way as a as a kind of thought experiment, if you like. You know, if you think about what you what you ingest in terms of food and drink and you make choices about what you choose to drink and eat. And you do that because you like what you eat and drink and because you think it's good for you or you enjoy it. What if I was to say, actually, no, no, that's not the way it's going to go. I'm going to stock your fridge and I'm going to tell you what you eat and drink. And the thing when people give over their attention to other people and say, no, I don't have time, I'm just going to consume what comes into my email or what comes across my social media feeds, what the demands of people around me are. They are, in a way, ceding their attention, their focus to other people. And I think what I'm arguing is can we can you invite people to reclaim their attention, reclaim where they choose to focus their attention? And I think in the book, there are lots of kind of ways in which I suggest people build that into their lives. I mean, one of the ways I suggest people build into their lives is between the moment that you kind of open your eyes and you wake in the morning and you're asleep fully in your day is there a moment where you can just pause and check in with yourself and ask yourself, what's what's up today? What's happening today? And with the pleasant moments and also the difficult moments. Can I really lean into those? Save a connect with the good ones and with the difficult ones. Maybe lean into them with a sense of being open and being courageous. And then at the end of the day, doing a bit of a review. Between the moment when you get into bed and you drift off to sleep, just reflect back on the day. What were the moments where I had a sense of connection, meaning whatever it might be and what it was like, difficult and tricky. And of course, you're going to be careful how to write because the mind trip into rumination and go, okay, maybe there's something to be learned that I'm going to put that down and come back to that later. And I think that's a way of retraining us to think, actually. Can I be a bit more intentional? Because if we don't, we're going to end up living somebody else's idea of our life restaurants and our own idea of our life. So throughout the book, there are lots of ways in which there's a possible response to this. But that's not to, of course, deny that some people have really challenging and full lives. In that early chapter, that wake up chapter, one of the the questions that you kind of pose in the one section that that just caught my mind and I thought it was really good. And maybe you could maybe share a little bit about this is you have a question in there. Can we bring an attitude of curiosity to laundry as well as ecstasy? And I found that I found that really great because, you know, the laundry's always there. Right? Yeah. And can you share a little bit about that, that point? Because I just get I. It was one of those things where things stick in your mind when you read. And I won't forget that that little question. So, I mean, just to give credit where credit is due, that's the book title after the efficacy of the laundry. Yeah, I think it's a really I mean, that's a psychological therapist, right. And for anybody with an interest in mental health and well-being, we have this idea of looking for a sense of well-being and a sense of happiness and connection, whatever it might be. But we all still have to do that has to do with life, which is the laundry, which is the washing up, which is the commute. And actually what I'm arguing is, can these attitudes of mind befriending our bodies and minds, can we do that in a way that we can potentially dial up curiosity but actually dial up everything else friendliness, compassion, sense of appreciation to all at the moment. And when we do that, what do we discover? And actually that can be tremendously interesting discoveries and things we didn't think were interesting. Right now I commute into London sometimes on the underground, and actually the people on the underground are just fascinating. I just sit there quietly and just the whole of the world is moving in front of you. And it is endlessly fascinating to see mother, child dyads, people going to what are they doing, what are they reading? Moments which you might write off as bedtime and actually be really interesting times. I used to drive my daughter to soccer practice along and she used to put on these play this summer to devote to the love of music together just from listening to music together at the car. So I think these moments that we think all the laundry may actually be something quite interesting. And the moments are there anyway. So why not tap into them and enjoy them? Because if not, we're just kind of shuffling through the day and. Exactly, you know, it's a blank spot in our in our awareness. Yeah. Yeah. I was talking to somebody yesterday and she was describing being in a supermarket coming up to the supermarket checkout person who looked like she was super grumpy. And she said to us, she's probably having a really bad day. I'll make an effort to try and talk to her and see if I can improve her day. And so she did. And I guess this woman was at the end of her shift. And as she was walking away, she looked back and the woman greeted the next customer. With a smile. And she walked away thinking, Not only have I not bought into her grumpiness, we've had an interaction which I'm walking away from with a smile. She's walking away and she's smiling at the next person. So you're right. You kind of lean into these moments, which you think and I think moments, but nothing moments. Right. They can be quite interesting, but. Okay. And I think I want to circle back around because, you know, this idea of, you know, really experiencing life, I do think lends itself to that that comment of, you know, a life well lived. And I'm curious kind of both well, for yourself personally, as well as when you're working with others and working to promote promoting these concepts, like how do you define a life? Well, lives like what? What do you think constitutes you know, at the end of our life, we can say that we've had a life well lived. I think that's a great question. It's a great question. And I, I think it's a deeply, deeply, deeply personal question. Yeah, I think it's a question that everybody has to answer for themselves. I can answer it as I answer it for myself. I and I. And I think it's difficult. It's a difficult one for people to answer. So we have to support them to answer it in ways that are accessible for them. I think reviewing our day at the end of a day is a very manageable way for people to do it. I think transition points are really interesting. As you go into a relationship, that's a chance to ask, you know, what is a life well lived? This person I'm entering into a relationship with, whether that's a friendship or a partnership, that's a mirror, right? That tells you something about Excel from what you value, what's important to you as you end the relationship. Same thing is also true as we go from being in college to work. I think transition points. Historically, anthropologists will tell us that the transition points are really important in the human story, but we've forgotten about transition points and actually stopping a transition point and asking the question you just posed know as I retire. What does it mean? It probably doesn't mean just walking to the corner shop every day, picking up a copy of the paper and watching TV all day. It might be for some people. But actually pausing and asking ourselves that question enables us to be a bit more intentional. I do think, you know, it's deeply personal. And I think for me, it's and you know, the friend I mentioned earlier, I think it's probably about loving relationships. It's about my research with my children, with my friends, with my partner. That's a life well lived. And it's about leaving the world a place that's better than the one I entered into in some way. That's my own personal answer to that question. I do think now, increasingly, there is probably a need for us to be asking that question at a more collective level. And I think the world is a place with limited resources and people are living alongside their neighbors, their family members, people from different backgrounds. What does a life well look like in my community, in my wider family and my nation? And I think that question also is an interesting question. And I think that's you know, you mentioned I'm a sort of international your first international guest, but I think fundamentally mental health well-being is defined to an American, whatever that means, because you have such a diverse population as it is to somebody in Latvia or in the United Kingdom or anywhere else. And I think there is something and I've told my folks all around the world, and at the end of the day, human minds have got so much universality. And so I think there is something about the human story in a life well lived. But it's a great question. I'd love to know what you think and why I so much of that, I think parallels where talking about relationships and even, you know on our show, one of the major themes that I think has come across in just about every episode is in some way, shape or form has been the significance and importance of connections and relationships and and really how we can either promote the field or promoting wellness, promoting kindness or compassion or change for ourselves. And, you know, when you're talking about the importance of those transition points, I couldn't also help but think about the the gaps in between those transition points and how each one, you know, is in some ways that reflection as well. So the bigger decisions and the bigger changes and then that that's foreshadowing and well, what's going what's my experience going to be into the next transition, whether it's a transition of my own making or a transition that's happening externally to me that I'm needing to adjust to. So but one of the pieces that I mean, I would say personally and I do try to promote as I'm working with others is to live a full life. And I think that's very similar concept of a life I lived, but I think a fullness in terms of feeling fulfilled and fulfilled in those personal ways. But it can be cross connection, all of those pieces there. I love what you've said, Darren, if you don't mind me just riffing off the back of that and back to something you said earlier. I think we talked earlier about the importance of befriending our bodies and minds. And I think this idea of connection is really interesting because you were talking about a connection with other people. But I think profoundly our connection with ourselves is the ground from which we are able to form connections not only with other people, but probably with the planet as well. Now, some mental health professionals will say, you know, if it's really developed in a critique, I can be tough on myself, but I'm very loving to my clients and I'm not certainly I mean, I recognize that and I can see that, but I think at a much deeper and more profound level, to really have compassion and a friendly relationship to our own mind and body is a prerequisite for a sustainable ability to do that with others. And I think that's why this is so important for therapists, for therapists asking these skills for themselves so that they can actually resource themselves to do the work for others as well. So that your point about connection. And so I think it's connection with ourselves supports connection with others as well. That's also, I think a response to the critique of mindfulness as this quite sort of individualistic, inward looking thing. I think it isn't. It's like physician heal myself. It's not selfish at all. It enables us to be resourced to do our work that. And in some way, you know, talking a little earlier about how, you know, so much of the world, you know, where we're developing, we're better informed now than we ever have been. And yet the need for, you know, mental health support and as has I don't know if it's ever been greater as well. So one of those pieces that I do think is a contributing factor is this, you know, we're making comparisons and it does at times feel selfish to promote ourselves or to kind of better ourselves, to take time for ourselves, especially when we become so aware of all these others. And so that the importance of, you know, nurturing ourselves as we're going through that and, you know, as your mindfulness, as that practice and not looking at as that selfish thing where we need to reframe and say, hey, like bad times, being selfish isn't a bad thing. You know, I want people to be selfish. I want them to pursue a full life for themselves. And they're not going to do that by giving themselves away freely. Know. And I think it's like it's like your car or your phone. I mean, it makes charging. Yeah. You're not going to say I don't have time to fuel my car. It's selfish to fuel my car. Somebody else needs the fuel. You need to do that. And I think it's as simple as that. It's actually as simple as that. And that's particularly true for people who are at the front line. One way or another, you know, like emergency service people, teachers, health care staff, psychologists, psychiatrists. These are the people who are the interface of other people's suffering. So they particularly I think they. Those helping individuals, certainly just the exposure. And also oftentimes and it's not reserved only for those in the helping fields, but there's a compassion and care and investment and investment in others. And because we're not able to, you know, control the fates and outcomes, there can be a lot of a lot of harsh judgment that's placed back on ourselves when others suffer, when others are struggling. Hmm. Yeah, for sure. And I guess there's one piece I wanted to jump back to from. Well, you've mentioned it quite a few times, but it's probably one of the the pieces in the books are just really jumped out as adding in the component of the personal values and really emphasizing the importance of our lives. You know, again, one of those other qualifiers for life well-lived is we're living a life that's in alignment with our own personal values. And I think, again, earlier on, you kind of have there's some graphics there that really try to compare like, you know, how do we how do we really let sign our personal values and how frequently we can just we can externalize that, but we don't really have it being a really personal reflection of ourselves. Where did that come from to ensure and really, really pushing that in the book? I guess one of the things that's happening with mindfulness practice, one of things you're trying to encourage is creating a little bit of space between all the incoming data and then what we're doing in the world, right between stimulus and response, that's a space. It's kind of a classic quote, sort of misattributed to Viktor Frankl between stimulus and response versus space. And what I've added to that as and in that space, we have choices and we have freedom, then we have the capacity for some alternate kind of pathways. What do you put into that space? It's not just a vacuum, right? If that space is a place where there's a compass that's coming out of all values, that compass is always going to steer us to the right thing to do. The example that comes to mind for me is, you know, for a couple of years, I was a single parent to a 15 year old daughter, and that was quite challenging at times. I remember one morning. She came downstairs and she made herself breakfast and the kitchen looked like a bomb attached to a towel from her shower It was left on the floor. And as she walked out the door, she said something not very nice to me. And I was full of I mean, my my reactivity was to shout out, to pick up the towel, clean up the thing. I'm not a slave or something. And I thought, you know, she's a 15 year old girl and her frontal cortex is not connected to our emotion system. And this is what happens for 15 year old girls. And I said to her, so in that moment, I thought, don't say that she's just going out. And today, just say something else. You're going to feel I took this chance to buy this later. So I said something like, Have a good day, I love you something. And later when I was driving it to soccer practice. A whole bunch of really difficult things that happened at school. You know, I think there were some sort of criminal activities among some of the boys in the school. And there those dynamics in that relationships. And it all tumbled out in the car on the way to soccer practice. And I thought to myself, if I had lost it this morning, she probably would have been cross with me and wouldn't have said any of those things. So I had in that space thought actually what I finally more is a good relationship with my daughter. My daughter feeling loved as she goes to school than a clean kitchen. I mean, you might say this is not a very big example, but I think this is the moments in which actually life happens. Right. And she's 22 now and she does pick up her towel and she does clean the kitchen. So it's not like any major harm has been done. But that's a moment in which we can ask ourselves, what's important to me, what's most important to me? And can that guide what I say, do or don't say and do? And as you said, Paul, it's also in the bigger transitions as we go through these transitions in life as well, then does that answer the question? It really does. And I love I love that example where it's the skills aren't lost. You know, she's very capable of, you know, fixing up and cleaning up after herself now. But the thing that is there was strength in that moment and it was prioritized in that moment is the relationship. And, you know, it is again, it's not just like, oh, we have to capture each moment or else it's never coming back But there are these kind of like segments of time where, you know, we really do get the chance to influence the future for ourselves. And in there I hear strengthening the relationship with your daughter versus, you know, doubling down on her, the significance and importance of cleaning up after herself. There's time for that and a different space. And of course, there will be ruptures in families and there'll be ruptures in therapy. And it's actually also it's not as if that moment scon every moment is a moment where there is potentially a space and we can say, gosh, there was a rupture there. And now what is a skillful response aligned with values or in therapy? With my formulation and the client's goals, that enables me to respond skillfully in this moment so that Malkmus creates a bit of space and then the values, provides a sense of direction, a compass, as I say. And I think that you you mentioned that that that example you gave is is kind of a small example. But I think that's the I think it's. Small, but also a very huge example because I think that's one. Those are the situations that people deal with on an everyday basis and think this idea of being aware that those little moments, whether it's the story with your daughter or the example you gave of the lady in the grocery store, you know, there's the way we react, opens up so many other doors and we're not going to do it right every time. But, you know, the idea of just creating that space to go, I have a decision at this moment for this this time. And and, you know, sometimes we make the wrong one and those ruptures happen. But the opportunities that that pause gives us to make a different choice, I think is just so valuable. And things I talk with people all the time. I'm like, sometimes the biggest outcomes in my life have been made from the smallest situations, the little pauses and yeah, I share about my daughters many times on the show, you know, the things that they come back and talk about now that they're adults. It's not the big things. It's the moment that they were having a bad day that I just said, Hey, I get it. I love you guys, you know, and and you let little things go. And for them, those were life changing experiences. And yeah, so I think, I think it's quite a huge example. Well, I mean, I think when you said that I kind of went, yeah, like what, what a great situation for you and your daughter. And I think we have to pay attention to how those little moments are. So not only for us big, but also for those that we have other connections. I think I just think about the audience and professional therapists listening to the podcast. I think we often when people come into therapy, they're coming in something of a crisis or a difficult point in their life. And I think of therapy as being this work, my life as being a much longer term project. And I think what we're all three of us speaking to is in these moments is that people deal with an early in therapy and they'll be to do with the things that they brought to therapy. Often difficult things like a difficult marriage or. Losing their job or depression or anxiety or PTSD or whatever it might be. But what you're doing in the longer term, I think, which is incredibly important, is you're building people's sense of their own capacity. And their sense of the word is often overused resilience. But that sense actually, you know, I can cope with the awful stuff because life is going to throw stuff on this. Right? But what you're doing in these small moments is you are building people's sense of capacity so that when they leave therapy, they have a sense of, yeah, I'm going to hit I'm going to hit holes in the road. I'm going to have difficulties. But I've got this sense of my mind and body are my friend alongside me. And I've got a set of skills that I've learned from my therapist feel like a sort of, I don't know, like I can't think of a good metaphor, but like a kind of like a seaworthy ship that actually I even though I'm going to hit, whether I'm going to be able to weather it and sometimes I'm also going to be up to have good decisions about today ports that district. And so I think this is something about building capacity is really important in this work is not getting people through a short term crisis is building capacity and that then speaks to the wider project you know that that when you do that, the family members around that person are going to benefit if they're running an organization, the people in that organization are going to benefit. MATTHEWS I love that idea of the kind of cascading circles of work. If you take that bigger and longer view of a life well-lived, that applies also not just to the individual but all the people around them. That's great. I, I love that, that term thinking about the capacity. I think that that's a great way to frame it. And then the nice thing about capacity is, you know, it gives us such space to be able to really, you know, pulling on it when it's needed, but also pulling on it when things are a bit more still And, you know, using kind of using that metaphor, this ship, you know, we're able to weather those storms, but we're also able, when the sea is calm, to cross great strides and create great change for ourselves. And, you know, we were talking about, you know, just cultivating relationships. And I can't help but think about how many times, you know, in sessions I'm talking with individuals who have strife with family or strife with coworkers, or there's just this disconnect that is going unresolved. And, you know, we talk about it and there's just not time I don't have time to to figure that out or that it's on them and like, you know, it's their problem. And certainly there's a piece of ownership that other individuals are needing to take, but inviting them in through that compass of their or their values and saying, you know, is this is this the relationship that you'd like to have or are you wanting to create change? And if we are in a still time, like if there is some disconnect going on, can we can we traverse and travel and extend an invitation for them to connect with us? And really, we're opening the door towards resolution rather than just letting things stagnate. I think I love I love that example, Paul and I think later in the book. I think what I'm doing in the book is I'm trying to build a whole set of skills to get to this point. So this isn't easy to do. But I think what can happen in therapy and what you just described is, is people's narratives can spin out, right? And they can spin out in a way that can feel like they're on rails. And that's not a that's a really that's a really a place of a lot of suffering. You can feel the suffering in the room and you can feel the stuckness of it. And so one of the exercises later in the book that I introduced is this idea of helping people first check in with their body and mind to anchor and steady themselves. And maybe if it's helpful, maybe just to cultivate a sense of bit of friendliness, a bit of patience, a bit of equanimity and balance. And then once they got that sense of groundedness and steadies and they stepped out of thinking, they're much more in a kind of being and then body mode asking these questions. In this scenario, in this situation, what would support my well-being? What would support the well-being if the other person would support the well-being of the wider world? Well, you can riff on those questions in whatever way you like. And I quite like this, this version of it, which is what would in me. What would enlarge the other personal issues of my relationships as you were to what would you lodge the relationship? And then you could resubmit further and you go, okay, I'm going to put myself in the perspective five years hence, looking back five years so you can play, but you're playing with it not terribly intellectually. You're playing with it from a sense of what feels intuitively and that space like. It is a skillful response. And I think what's so interesting is that people then go on from because you've taken them off the rails, right? You've taken them off the rails. And what comes up, I just find that you can really trust what comes up in those moments, particularly when people have got a bit of practice that they can draw on because it's often really simple. It's letting go, it's forgiveness, it's moving on, or it's putting a boundary in place saying, This is someone I can't have in whatever it might be. The answer often comes from a very different place, like a wise or deep in mind. I think you need to find a place for that. And I think that's why so many therapists, I think, find using some mindfulness in their therapeutic practice really helpful because it opens up different things for their clients. That's not just a skill that they can use to downregulate anxiety. I can do that too, but it's it access is I think, a wise a mind, a different set of perspectives. In creating the capacity in the belief themselves that they're able to make those changes. They're able to project out and see the path rather than it just being a fantasy. Absolutely. Absolutely. One of the I believe it was one of the last chapters really talks about embracing change, I believe. And, you know, as we're talking through it and even at some early examples of how, you know, we download apps surrounding mindfulness and mental health and they last about a week. And I think these practices, when we're aware of them, we can implement them. One of the hardest parts is consistency. And I'm curious for our audience. What are your thoughts there? How do they cultivate a consistency with mindfulness and not just a practice of it? Like the practice is the action, but the consistency is really the experience and the belief within it. So we're not just kind of going through the motions of it. I mean, let me start by saying I do think there is an enormous value in sort of more formal, longer mindfulness practices. And there are, you know, for thousands of years, there have been mindfulness practices that are about the cultivation of focus, about development, of insights, and about the development of these sort of attitudes. Be that compassion, be that whatever. So Mother Theresa, for example, before nuns would go into the slums of Calcutta, which was an incredibly difficult place to work for them, to keep their hearts open, she had them prayed for, I think I think it was literally a couple of hours every morning for these practices. And so I want to say I'm not saying for a minute sort of practices on people. But I guess my answer to your question is actually just two words flipped around, which is life as practice. And practice is life. Life is practiced. Every moment of our lives is a form of practice. If we just stop, step backwards, sense of awareness and friendly curiosity and our values every moment of our life is practice. And if we sit down on the mat, we're going to meet our bodies and minds. We're going to meet our lives. You put that on the mat and say, Clear your mind, go. Okay, I'm trying to calm my mind, but I'm thinking about that problem at work. Practice is life. So let's just practice. Practice in life. And I think when you think about that and you add what we were just saying about befriending our minds and bodies and not something to get away from, it's something to embrace, I think. And embody and embrace. And in some ways I hear it like in you've used the term quite a few times for that. Cultivating the curiosity, I think really creates a hunger for it. And, you know, in the same way, though, you know, we're not going to, you know, choose to necessarily willfully not go and put gas in our car. Like, if we can create a hunger for and for this curiosity, for this, you know, awareness. It, it becomes that, you know, life as practice and practice is life. Yeah. I guess where the car metaphor drops down is it's not intrinsically rewarding to put gas or to charge your car intrinsically rewarding. But I think mindfulness is intrinsically rewarding if it's approached in the right way. You know what I was saying earlier on about if you can start your day with a sense of what am I going to appreciate from the day? And if you and your day with a review of that, it becomes intrinsically rewarding. And if you reflect back and go, Gosh, that meeting at work would have gone so much worse if I if I let my mouth run off. But actually, what I did is I planted my feet on the ground and I said to myself, William, stay calm, stay steady. What's going to be helpful in this meeting if at the end of the day you're looking back and going, that was really helpful. You're going to be more inclined to do it the next day. And that's why we keep our friendships alive, because they add value to our life. And if people think that the mindfulness practice and I don't mean sitting on your mindfulness practice, I think actually focusing on being aligned with our values. But something online is adding value to their lives. Then a bit like a friendship. You invest in it and then if you think this friend is going to tell them I die, but I choose to not like a sibling, you might be even more inclined to do it right. So I think it's if it's approached in the right way, it's intrinsically rewarding and then people want to do it. And that's my experience of teaching the curriculum that's in the new book, Mindfulness for Life, is that actually people find it intrinsically rewarding, and so they want to keep doing it. When you're talking about creating that intrinsic desire. I think sometimes that can that can feel kind of scary for individuals. And, you know, I really appreciate how you framed it in terms of differing relationships and going from friend to sibling. And this is almost a sibling that we need to adjust to. And I can't help but think of all the younger clients I work with that absolutely. Are just you know, they are frustrated beyond belief with their siblings. And it's, you know, there becomes this adjustment period of learning to live with their siblings and learning to embrace their siblings. You know, as someone who will be a part of their life, you know, in a significant way and in a in a long term way. And I think, you know, not all practices of mindfulness just there's not all siblings have conflicts, but there can be this adjustment process and building in that awareness of how intrinsic, intrinsically valuable these concepts are. Yeah. And I think they need for us to teach them skillfully. We have to be really, really aware of who we're teaching it to, where they're at, how resourced they are. And I think you always teach anything in a kind of graded way, right? We started elementary school with English and math and reading, and then you walk up to somebody who wants to go off and do astrophysics. It's a graded process and I think the same is true here. I mean, if somebody comes from a trauma background that in a landscape is a terrifying place and they have flashbacks and hyper underspend. There's this term which has come from the self-compassion movement, which is this idea of Backdraft, which is the idea of if you open the door where there's a fire in a room just opening the door, that's oxygen come in and the flame will just imply somebody with a trauma background. Opening awareness and bringing kindness can create backdrop. And so I think it's really important to introduce these ideas and a really skillful way, mindful of who is teaching them to how resourced they are, and then by sizing it to making it appropriate to that person. And these things can be done in a really, really small way that will be can be a way in for people. If you think that historically in mindfulness, we've started with eating as a way of just opening up all of your senses to eating an object. So can you taste it? Can you see it? Can smell it. And it's just a way of introducing the idea of when we bring awareness to eating, it just changes the experience of it, right? Obviously you wouldn't do that with somebody with an eating disorder, then you might do something different. The way I started to do it, to introduce mindfulness, is to use people's cell phones. And I ask people to just take their cell phone and hold it in their hand, switch it off and go through the movements of switching it on. Opening up the homescreen, opening up their favorite and interacting with their favorite app, and at each stage, watching what's happening in their mind and body. As a way of just seeing how powerful our minds and bodies are and how our reactivity can be in the face of something that's designed to grab our attention. And I think that's a really for most people, that's a really simple and straightforward way to introduce mindfulness and in a way that can be very relevant because most people spend a lot of time interacting with their phone. You know, when when I was reading through the book, one of the things I really did appreciate was the sequence at which you you wrote the chapters and that each chapter, you know, is really this, you know, kind of element of mindfulness. And as I was trying to think of this as a lifestyle change for people that, you know, I thought the way you presented it in these these elements was that it was very easy to implement and intend to just take these small these small steps. And, you know, mindful eating, I think, was was very early in the book. You kind of mentioned that. And I've heard that before where I was like, you know, what a great way to just kind of get people to to think through all of it. And then as I read the rest of the book, that really kind of expands without even mentioning mindful eating again. But those those basic concepts, how they kind of unfold. So as people that are reading the book or maybe using this book with people in in therapy, you used the word I think earlier, you may have said like a curriculum or a protocol. Do you see this book is written as a way that they can treat it in that way, that it's something to take maybe a chapter at a time, get comfortable, use, use those skills. Is that how you envisioned when you wrote the book? Absolutely. I've envisaged this is a book that can generally introduce people to mindfulness and they can come back to it over and over again and work with it in whatever way works for them. So the write each of the chapters is like a milestone. But within each chapter it starts with sort of introducing the ideas. And then later in the chapter it goes, if you want to take this deeper and further. I've got a I've got a book on my bedside table that has been there for 30 years, I think, and it was written by Tolstoy at the end of his life, and nobody's ever heard of it. It's called A Calendar of Wisdom. So he spent the last 20 years of his life to go quite depressed when he turned 50 and all these amazing books. Right. And I'm War and Peace, Anna Karenina. It is a very successful Russian author. I spent the last 20 years of his life just amassing these quotes and insights from different religions and different poets and different writers. And he organized them into 365 themes. And so every day of the year is a theme on whatever. And I just go back to that book over and over and over again. Every time I read it, I see something new and interesting different. And I think mindfulness for life is the same. We can visit and revisit these ideas over and over and at every stage of our life we're going to see something slightly different. We're going to need something slightly different. So I see the book in that way. It's not a curriculum that you have to work through in a particular way. It's a curriculum for life, and you just use it in a way, whatever way is useful. And I think for therapists who are recommending it to their clients, it's also a lot of practices that people can use but use in different ways, because I think, as most people know, mindfulness is a confluence of psychological science but also draws on Buddhist psychology. And the Buddha was really clear that actually not as a religion, but that every mind is different and every mind state is different. And these different things, there are practices that focus their practices for an angry mind to their practices for for a for a for a very tired mind. So I think the idea is that there are lots of different resources that people can use in different ways at different times of their life. Yeah. And I'm glad you mentioned about it. I didn't wasn't thinking it at the moment. And then you mentioned, you know, I did. I really love the fact that in the chapters, you know. They it presents it in a very simplistic way. But as the chapter goes on, there is a depth to each of the concepts that people can walk through. And I mean, I think even how you title some of the the end, the end parts of the subsections of the chapters where it's show talking about how to use it throughout life and how to take things to a deeper level. And, you know, as you know, as somebody who's done mindfulness, you know, throughout throughout my career, even as I went through it, you know, being somewhat experienced in it, going to those deeper levels, I thought was very, very a very practical way to do it. And let me go to a deeper level. So, I mean, I know, you know, this is written, you know, maybe for people who don't have a lot of experience, but I think also for for people who are experienced. I do love the introduction of how to take these to a much deeper level, all of these different strategies. And so I'm glad you mentioned that for for listeners because I think those who, you know, might be like, well, hey, I do mindfulness. I, I think the idea that you have ways to take it further for people, it was a great addition to the book, in my opinion. Thank you. I really appreciate you saying that. Right. And I just I guess I well, it made me think of is when I was writing the book, I had on the wall behind the computer screen pictures of all the people I was writing it for. And I made sure that those pictures was a really diverse group of people, people who were young, like my daughter's age, young twenties, and who were skeptical about my influence, but also people who were very experienced in my practice. So I was very definitely writing it for those different audiences. And just because the language I got some amazing advice. Somebody said, Write it as if you are having a cup of coffee with somebody. So I that was the voice I was trying to use, but that doesn't mean I'm trying to be simplistic or I'm trying to write. I'm just writing it in a way that I can accessible. And there are four case studies throughout the book that I develop their stories all the way through, and I think they're very diverse and they're intended to be diverse. And as a young, 20 year old nursing student, by the way, through to a woman and at the end of her life. So it is intended to be to those broader sets of people, I think. Yeah. I love that. I love that style. You know, I mean, it's, you know, when when Paul and you mentioned about the, you know, life well lived and that concept, you know, one of the reasons we started this podcast came out of, you know, we did this and started in COVID. And, you know, one of the things that I said I miss the most was not necessarily going to professional conferences, but going to professional conferences and sitting around with people who are brilliant minds over a cup of coffee and talking about these concepts in psychology and a very just, you know, a very simplistic way, a way that we can just kind of talk about ideas. And I said it was the thing that that for me, I miss the most that the meaning of my my professional life was impacted by not having that which led Paul and I to have conversations together and go, Hey, we need to bring people together and just have these conversations you know, so, so I love that you approach the book that way because that's as as we do this, you know, we think in the same way, you know, it's it's a fireside chat more than anything else to just have a conversation which which really the book does read that way and really appreciated that. I don't know if it's your experience, guys, but I think my experience is if I can't explain something simply, I probably haven't understood it. Right. Complicates. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And those who may also have expertize can benefit from that simplicity as well as the person who doesn't. So it's. Yeah, I agree. So. Well, well, well, this. This has been a great conversation. And I we really appreciate you kind of taking a dove into mindfulness for life with us. And I wish we had some more time to just go into like we could talk for hours on this topic. But as, as we're kind of wrapping up, we like to kind of wrap up our episodes with what we we consider takeaways. And we, we ask all of our guests, you know, three, three questions. We ask you the same three questions. And the first that we often like to hear is, you know, we're this like to practice podcast. So we're always interested in what keeps you psyched to practice, what keeps you doing, the things that you're doing. Some people would say in the latter part of my career, but I genuinely feel like professionally for me, the best is yet to come because I feel like everything I've amassed in terms of my work experience and knowledge has taught me how much I know, how much I love learning, how much I love teaching, how much I love seeing other people thriving and learning. And it's just enormously rewarding to see clients, junior colleagues, departments thriving and that thing that just keeps me going kind of thing. That's yeah. So that would be my answer. Wonderful. And the second question is, if you can recommend one piece of content can be a book, a movie, television show. Really, anything that you can think of for those in the profession that you think is something they should look into, what would that piece of content be? I, I, I'm not going to suggest one thing. I'm going to maybe give a slightly controversial answer and say, I think the arts broadly defined music, film, theater, dance. Is can be so incredibly enriching. And for people to engage with whatever area that makes them feel alive, life that makes them feel alive, whether that's a particular genre of music or it's dance or sport. And when it does make them feel alive to really lean into that, because that's what it's all about. And that's going to be different for some people. For some people that's going to be a big basketball game. For other people, it's going to be the opera. For other people, it's going to be their favorite band or a big gig. But really lean into that. That's the stuff of life, right? Wonderful. I love that. And the last question we like to ask, if you could, you kind of three gems or takeaways that you've learned in your career that might help others. What would those three takeaways? I think the first is you've got to walk the talk. I think people like to make this distinction between the professional and the personal, but I think to do the professional well, you have to walk the talk. So for me, that is to have a practice, a mindfulness practice, and to really try to embody what I've learned from that. The other is that the more we know, the less we know. I think you just said that just now that I actually do have kind of a sort of empiricism and a scientist practitioner mindset, if you like, but also a massive dose of humility. And actually, there's a lot we don't know and a lot we don't know yet. So we're going to keep learning and going to keep doing good work. And I have to say, the final one is one that's dawning on me more and more in time is I think we've got some really challenging world problems in the world at the moment climate change, polarization, technology, information overload. These are not going to be solved by single minds, by single geniuses. They're going to be solved by groups of people coming together with different skill sets and respect for each other. And so that the major problems of our time are going to be solved by collaborative groups of people working together. I think we just saw that with the pandemic. You know, here in Oxford we had a pharmaceutical company and a vaccines group coming together with government, and that led to them being able to produce the first vaccine in the world through a really generous kind of collaboration. I'll just add one other thing to that, which is the I think it was the chief executive of the pharmaceutical company was sitting in the lockdown with his kids at the dinner table saying, we're working on this vaccine. And the kids said to him, Dad, when this vaccine comes out, you've got to make sure it's produced. It's released at a cost. I can't deny I'm a profit making response to my shareholders. So that's what he did. That's what he did. A lot of people thought he was insane. AstraZeneca And actually in the long term, I think it's worked out just fine. So I think that's one of the big problems require collaboration and different thinking and those groups of people. Yeah, that that is that's great. And I'm glad you brought in that story about the the vaccine company. I think that that's a great mindset, you know, to then. Yeah. Doing it and it did not affect their practice very mindful decision on his part so well again thank you so much this was great was wonderful talking with you and really looking forward to the release of your book. I know you said it's internationally is going to be the end of October, is that right, the release? Yeah. So the book's being released internationally as a latter part of October 2024, and I just wanna say thank you to you both for a fantastic set up. You guys have gotten great questions. I love the different styles you both bring. It's been an absolutely amazing conversation. Thank. And truly, you know, thank you so much for well, for allowing us to start our day with this conversation and why, you know, running your day down with it. And, you know, as a whole, just, you know, talking about your book, Mindfulness for Life. And, you know, if our listeners are interested in learning more or keeping up to date with what's going on for you, is there any place that they can go to follow you or stay up to date with what you're working on? Yes. So I'm very aware of the fact that many people don't buy books. I don't have books or have time to read books. So I've tried to make as many of the ideas as accessible as possible on a website. Mindfulness for Life. Duke So many of the ideas and many resources are available on that website. There are some short films introducing each of the chapters as links to my social media channels and so on. So if people want to get just a sense of these ideas, one word mindfulness for lifestyle UK. And certainly hoping our listeners take you up on that offer and, you know, being able to to really adapt some of these practices and experiences into their lives. And with that, if you're a licensed clinician and would like more information on this topic, please head over to our website at the WW dot site to practice dot com or you can check out our show notes for the link and look out for a potential company exam for utilizing continuing for utilizing continuing education units for this episode. If you're interested in hearing more or staying up to date with what's going on for safety practice, you can visit our website or follow us on all major social media by searching site to practice. We'll be back in two weeks. But until then, be well. Stay psyched. The information contained in this podcast and on the site. The practice website is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 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