Practice in Action: The Power of Mentorship

In the latest episode of the Psyched to Practice podcast, Paul Wagner and Ray Christner explore the transformative impact of mentorship in personal and professional growth. From sharing career-changing moments with their own mentors to reflecting on the importance of reciprocal learning, they discuss how mentorship opens doors, builds confidence, and shapes careers. This episode dives into the characteristics of meaningful mentor-mentee relationships, including the value of being open to feedback, cultivating trust, and recognizing the potential for growth in every interaction. Paul and Ray also share inspiring stories about the mentors who shaped their paths and the lessons they’ve passed on to others. Whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting out, this episode offers valuable insights into how mentorship can create lasting change in both directions. Tune in now and discover how to embrace the roles of both mentor and mentee in this Practice in Action episode: The Power of Mentorship

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Transcript

Hey everyone, welcome to the Psyched to Practice podcast, your one stop for practical and useful clinical information. Masterful insights from experts in the field and a guide to Daily Living. I'm Ray Christner and with me. Paul Wagner. And Paul, today we're going to do a practice in action focusing on the idea of mentorship. And, you know, I think such an important topic. And I didn't think about just the overall significance it's had for me. And I know that there's even been a variety of episodes where we kind of sprinkle in talks of, you know, the mentors in our lives. And, you know, also for you, I kind of like the role of being a mentor and just how important it is. And yet I don't know that, you know, the mental health field does it all that well. Yeah, I would agree. And I think that, you know, I think there's varying levels. And I think, you know, for me, it's, you know, one of the reasons I'm really glad we're doing this is it has been such an impactful part of my career. And I feel like oftentimes, you know, people ask a little bit about career path and I'm always going back to people I've met with people who, you know, taught me little things that, you know, wasn't in the classroom. It wasn't, you know, it was there were things that happened at conferences. It was, you know, different, different ways. And I, yeah, they were invaluable. Like, I think without those mentoring experiences, I think, you know, my career could have taken a whole different path and it's just opened up a lot of doors. And then on the other end, you know, being someone who's been in the career long enough now, seeing people who I was mentored or who were students of mine who are doing really cool stuff way beyond what my capacity to do is, is awesome. Like, so it's, you know, there's such a win win in, in kind of this idea of mentorship. And I think that's such an important piece of it. You know, mentoring isn't a one way street. There's a reciprocation that happens. And, you know, it doesn't also have to be, you know, oh, this person. I only have one mentor. Certainly at varying points, I've had like three or four mentors on differing skills or even on shared skills, but just differing approaches. And it's been so helpful and you know, even early enough, early on in our youth, we have no coaches, we have teachers like we can kind of view those individuals as mentors, you know, religious leaders. And. But as we're getting more into our field, really trying to have an understanding of, you know, with mental health practice, you know, what is the route to take. And I can recall very specifically kind of the like this idea of like, okay, you know, I was I didn't know a counseling degree really existed when I was in psychology. And it wasn't until like my third year of my undergrad program where, you know, I'm kind of we're going down over the different career paths. And I can't I was like. Okay. This is this is interesting because that's really what I was interested in doing. And I realized it's like, okay, I'm needing to go into the doctor all around. Like, I need to go into clinical psychology and I got a chance to go and sit down with that professor and the professors, you know, it was just like so brilliant. And being able to kind of share like, no, here, like let's look at these paths. And he connected me with certain individuals and you know, from that point on it was totally changed the scope and trajectory of what I thought. I thought I was going. And, you know, I think that's what a mentor does is a mentor opens doors and and it creates these pathways that we don't see or that feel like you know, hazier, murky. And they really bring a sense of clarity and confidence because that path has already been walked before. Yeah, I think that's great. And I want to jump back to your your comment about reciprocity. Like, I think that that's just so important because I think that, you know, it's I've heard people unfortunately make comments of I just don't have time to mentor other people or I don't have time to supervise other people. And, you know, I my experience has been so different. Like, I mean, I've I've become so much better because of people that I've mentored. And, you know, it's one of the people that that I've had mentorship from, used a quote a long time and a quote he said a long time ago. And it was actually a Carl Jung quote. And he said, and I'm going to give you the exact quote, but it says, the meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances. If there is any reaction, both are transformed. And and when we and he said this in relation to a mentorship session we were having and he said, you know, gosh, like our work together has changed what I've done. This was a really seasoned person who I was like, I'm like, okay, I had like an influence that feeling for me contributing not only his contributions to me, but me contributing to him as a pretty young psychologist, truly was like. I mean, it was professionally changing for me. Like, it was like the first time I went, Wow, like there's a lot of value in what I bring to the table to these relationships. And then it builds confidence and then it builds, you know. So then there's this whole steamroller effect so that reciprocity is so key. And I'm glad you kind of use that term because yeah, this really is a street where we both become better at mentorship, which is which is awesome. And I, I guess I'm curious, like maybe not necessarily getting into all the varying skills and mentors, but you know, for you like, I mean kind of even in our interactions, I mean you have certainly been a mentor for me, Ray, and kind of going through this and thank you, you know, and I actually I here recently was given a presentation to a local school district and I used one of your quotes in there talking about points and you've shared with me like you always start with a quote and end with a joke and but just that idea like it's okay, hey, here's like I'm kind of with a podcast if you're far more comfortable speaking and it's like, okay, I'm going and giving this presentation and now having just a framework to be able to operate from and you know, just and so even just in simple conversation and that's, you know, those quotes that you can just stick with us in those moments and certainly that it's it changes the way that I practice even a lot of these conversations we have with guests. You know, it can be just a brief moment, but I think that can also be mentorship. Like mentorship doesn't necessarily need to be, again, this, you know, exaggerated time period. But it can be those brief interactions that you were talking about at a conference. It's just like it just a moment can really change that trajectory. But it's it it's that moment where that reaction happens. And I absolutely, absolutely love that book that your mentor shared with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I said, Carl Young, that's it's for me. It's directly from him. Not that he was my mentor, but yeah, it was, it was, you know, it's it's it's the same thing. It's interesting that the podcast itself. Has has the same thing for me. It's change, you know, from our conversations. But also like I find that my role changes every time we have a guest on. Like I do something different and better, which is kind of awesome, you know, it's yeah, it's I've been lucky. Like I've just had the chance to, to just have great mentors in my career. And I, you know, I know I've shared with you and I guess maybe timely in the sense of, you know, Phil Zimbardo recently passing away. And that goes Zimbardo was a mentor of mine, but I share a story like I was a young box. I think I was a first year doc student and I was at an APA conference and I was standing in line to get lunch. And I turn around and that's who's behind me is Phil Zimbardo. And you know, even at that point, you know, I knew who he was, you know, in the Stanford Prison Study, and everybody kind of knows that. And I was a little awestruck, like, I was like in this kind of like, my gosh, like this is Phil Zimbardo. So I just basically just turned around and I introduced myself and just said, you know, I'm familiar with your work, which is, yeah, probably he hears all the time, but, you know, just kind of being introduced. So it was really nice to meet you. And I turned around and kind of got my lunch and sat at a table and I was sitting by myself and all of a sudden he comes over and he sits down. He's like, you know, can I join you? And like, yeah, like, you know, absolutely. And all of a sudden, like for, I don't know, maybe 20 minutes, we have this conversation and he's asking me about what I was doing in graduate school. And he was telling me about traveling to Italy and doing things with the American Italian Psychologists Association or some group like that and the work that he was doing. And it was this wonderful exchange and and I tell that story because it honestly, I think that was that was a career changing moment. And I never I never spoke with him again until we had the podcast and we were going to have him on. And unfortunately, you know, he was unable because of health reasons. But, you know, you know, all that time I was like, wow, there are people in this field who we look up to we think are doing all this brilliant work, who are at the end of the day, approachable and want to share and want to have conversations And and that little piece not that he mentored me necessarily in psychology, but he changed my perception about approaching people that I wanted to work with. And in that instant, that was such a powerful interaction that I don't know that he could recognize that from that moment on, I was never worried about seeing somebody that I thought was wonderful in the field and just walking up and saying, Hey, you know, I'm familiar with your work. Can we talk? Or maybe reaching out by email to somebody? And that's just opened so many doors for me. And I mean, what a 20 minute mentorship that he doesn't even know half and like he was just having lunch but life changing in my career. And I love that story. And when you were sharing it the first time, you know, and it sparked some conversations. And I don't think it's going to be the last time we're talking about, you know, Zimbardo, especially with him in passing here recently. And hopefully we can do a future episode. When you were sharing that, just like this idea of the ripple effect that it can have and the importance, maybe it's like what makes a good mentee? And one of that the first pieces is a willingness to put yourself out there and a willingness to, you know, to be mentored in a way. And so that's, I think, a crucial piece that if we are closed off, if we're not taking those steps, I don't know that we get that dynamic or it's at least not as effective and we're a bit more passive in the process. But I think one of those just key pieces is we have to be willing to take that leap of faith. And I don't know that it always works out. But we learn from it regardless. Yeah. I think that's I think that's a great a great point. But I mean, yeah, definitely as if we want to have someone mentor us. We have to. Yeah, we have to think of that. I think the other piece of it is. We also have, I think as a mentee, be willing to be open minded and sometimes have critical feedback that's maybe not comfortable. I mean, some of my best mentoring experiences in the moment felt like, Oh my gosh, this is really heavy. Like this is, you know, I didn't want to hear that. I wasn't doing everything perfect. But I'm so glad in hindsight that I was told I wasn't doing everything perfect. And and it's made me, I think, better at what I do. And so with with kind of getting a thicker skin, you know, it prepared me, I think, for a lot of things. You know, one of the one of the first projects I was involved in was writing a journal article. And, you know, I had a professor I was working with who, you know, really kind of prepared me. We're going to submit this but know like we're we're going to might probably get rejected like this journal takes 6% of the submissions like it was a really hard journal to get into and and even if they do accept it, it's going to come back with all these critiques and and preparing me to be ready for critical feedback and to not be offended by it and to realize how much that has, let me accept things and then develop better things because of being willing to get feedback. Again, what an invaluable skill that that mentorship had. I mean, have you had things like that with your people that you've mentored with? I have. And so often, you know, you're describing that feeling like it's like this really heavy conversation and like you kind of almost feel crestfallen in a way. But being able to to really recognize that it's not really meant as a judgmental criticism. It's meant as a me give you feedback to improve. And I think if that can be the perspective taken, it it just it really helps us recognize and develop skills or you can recognize like, you know, shortcomings or challenges that we face I know for me, one of my one of my mentors during my in my practicum was talking about like, hey, your clinical work is great. The works that the focus like let's really kind of look at it like and a bit of that was a bit of time management and he's like, okay, like hey. And so often he and I had this like kind of jovial, like pause, like just kind of a, a learning through conversation interaction. But it was a time where it was like, Oh, okay, like, I need to take this really seriously. And I was able to take that and adapt it and try and say, okay, you know, making it work for me that, you know, this is coming off the heels of our productivity conversation. And that was something where, you know, we were talking about time blocking. I was like, okay, I need to block time for getting ahead. It was writing a more of a curriculum rather than necessarily doing clinical notes, but it was I need to make sure my groups that I'm going to be preparing for have the materials so that we were able to be well prepared and know, recognizing that process and something that, you know, I, I knew, but I was kind of avoiding. And he was able to shine a spotlight on it, but in a compassionate way that really let me develop the skills necessary to improve there. Yeah. I mean, boy, isn't that the key, right? Like the idea that mentorship pushes you, it pushes you into doing things differently and thinking different. And yeah, you know, I've had mentors who just told me good things and they were awful mentors. Like they were nice apple, they were good friends. Some are still good friends, but they didn't changed the trajectory of what I did and didn't make me better and make me think different and go, Hey, you know, like when you said like this, this is serious. Like I have to focus on this. Like, that is so much what I've appreciated from mentors, those that have challenged me that have been critical and said, hey, you know, this isn't good. You know, I think they have been the best mentors and I think you have to do that harshly. Like I've had a couple who they could have probably said things nicer and it would have maybe been a better conversation. But, you know, it doesn't you can have a good, constructive, critical conversation without it being offensive either. And I think that's that's also, I think skills of of a good mentor. And, you know, and I think, you know, you said something earlier that's been on my mind like, you know, do we do a good job of this in mental health, like in mental health fields of mentorship? And I don't know. I think you're right. I think I wonder, you know, maybe we do from a clinical standpoint, like maybe, you know, people tell you you got to do better paperwork. And here's how you write a good note and here's how you do on these cases. But yeah, I think for me that the. The mentors that have. I think meant the most to me, took me out of the box of just being a good clinician and taught me how to have a career in mental health. That there was something different than just. Just going into an office and doing therapy. Nothing wrong with that. I mean, I love that part of my job. I love, you know, person to person interaction to help people. That's why we do this. But I also appreciated the people who are like, Why don't you think about writing? Why don't you go and do a presentation? Let's talk about finances and how can you enhance your financial situation because hey, in mental health, you may not make that much money, but here are some ways you can make extra money. Like what? Another great way to have mentorship. I think I've told you the story. I mean, my first book was a book that I never thought I was going to write, you know, Dr. Martin Freeman, who passed away several years ago, but was a great mentor and was a wonderful friend to me. I was a doc student and I'm sitting here today at a conference as we're doing this recording at the conference that I got introduced to publishing. So it was we're at the Association for Behavior and Cognitive Therapy, so ABCD conference and we're on the floor, meaning that, you know, the vendor floor and I always just thought we went there to buy books like that was yeah, we were seeing what the latest books were out there and all of a sudden, you know, Dr. Freeman or Art says, you know, hey, let me introduce you to the acquisition editors. And I said, What? What is that? He goes, Well, they're here to find new authors. Like that's that's why they come to conferences. They don't make enough money selling books. This is how they do business. And I'm like, what? Like, like this is happening behind the scenes. Like, when did this start? And he's like, Oh, yeah, like this is so he's like, Here, I'm going to show you how to do it. So he does. He takes me on the floor and he says, you know, he introduces me to a guy, George Zimmer, who was a wonderful publisher with Routledge Publishing, and he says, George, this is Ray. Ray, tell him about the book you want to write. And I never thought I wanted to write a book like that. But, you know, at that moment, I'm like so literally I was, you know, I've had ideas of things that I was interested in. So I started talking about my interests and then they said, Wow, that's a great idea. Like, we should you should write a proposal. And all of a sudden, you know, I'm at a conference sitting in my room writing a proposal and bringing in colleagues that you've met, like Rosemary Minority, who was it ended up being part of that book as well. And, and so our bro and I wrote this first book together, which Rowe and I just on Monday released the third edition of of the same book, all out of a mentorship on the spot moment of something that I never knew existed. You know, that's good mentorship and challenged me to on the spot come up with ideas and not to overthink it. If he would have told me to go back in my room and think of ideas, I probably would have come up with nothing. But I was put on the spot and it made me, I think, think differently. And now, you know, for the last 20. Gosh, four years. 25 years. I come to conferences different, you know. So part of my time here, I'll meet with publishers and talk about ideas and see if that's something that maybe is something they'd be interested in if it wasn't for that one day. 25 years ago, I would've never published anything. So, I mean, that's good mentorship. And I mean, you share that story number two and just every time like. It captures just the and the assets of what I mean what inspired to therapy this episode which is like just the idea of personal growth, the idea of growing within the field, the idea of growing as a mentor like, you know, because now art's along in that journey with you and kind of going and like, you know, helping but also inspiring. Like, you know, you're inspiring differing ideas and, you know, so at. How interdependent these are, where each individual or each part of it or each person involved is connected, and you're that catalyst for one another. And I'm also left thinking about, like, what are the. What are the ways that that doesn't happen as often or frequent in mental health? Because, you know, for every individual, you know, for every one that gets introduced this book publishers like what are all the ideas are the concepts that don't and right you know I agree like you know we have like I mentioned my practice the practicum in you know we have we have these different pieces to help develop clinical skills but we don't really promote that like, hey, you can be a competent, you know, writer, you can be, you know, business owner, you can be doing these things, you know, you can create a podcast, you know, you can promote the field in differing ways. And, you know, the the core pieces of it are happening in that direct interaction or those direct interventions with, with the client. But so much of it, you know, so much of how things change come from these interactions and opportunities that come out of a conversation. And, you know, the. The catalyst for this podcast, you know, happened to a conversation and you know, it seeing how that's developed and then, you know, we've shared before like how hoping to take this into continuing and like again that that these different conversations and how can really unfold. And know prior to some of those I never thought any of those pieces would happen and even you know trying to think of for myself of differing ways where, you know, I don't know that I have any like longstanding, you know, mentees, but those moments where I can help to mentor someone and even outside of the mental health field, like I have, you know, some some friends that I approached, like, hey, like, I know you can't tell me like to too much, like in terms of like the therapy side of things, but. I'm kind of lost medication, like, you know, what are these pieces? And I have, you know, family that approach me like, hey, like, you know, do you think I should go for an evaluation and just being that maybe individual that they can go to to help get a bit of direction? I'm not the one who's directly interacting and engaging, but I can sit down with them and just then share the path and share like, Hey, this is how I would recommend approaching it. I think you're going to get a better level of care if you take this way versus this way, and it gives them a bit of mentoring them into entering into mental health like, you know, for themselves as consumers. And so I think in a variety of ways, we we can view ourselves both both mentees and mentors constantly. Oh, yeah, I agree. And I think sometimes we don't we don't realize how much of an impact we have on other people. I mean, going back to the Zimbardo story, maybe I would even say you said you don't think you have many mentees, but like I would look at it as is our relationship is being a very reciprocal mentor mentee kind of situation where I mean, I remember sitting down before we did the podcast, no clue how to do a podcast. Like I'm like, I mean, I listen to them, but I'm like, yeah, the technology part of it and like, you know, the stuff that, you know, you've imparted to me to do this and to kind of go, you know, you know, I've presented to audiences, but to be on a microphone and to record it and to not get, you know, know what your audience is thinking like that was outside of my realm, but it was those interactions that we had that then led it led to us disseminating information in a different way. And I think that's the power of it. Like it's, you know, maybe I had some ideas and some contacts that we could get this started. And then you brought a knowledge of technology and podcasts and how we edit this stuff and how do we get it on to, you know, actually sound decent and, you know, how do we structure these things? And, you know, that's where, you know, again, that's where the reaction happens, right? Like, I mean, I without you, I would have never done this and possibly without me, you would have never done this. But together, it kind of happens. That's what happened with Art and I and our books. It's what happens, you know, with Rowan, I all the time when we when we write and other colleagues that I work with, that's where that relationship so powerful. So yeah, I think these mentorships happen all the time. And I'm glad you brought up about people maybe not even in the profession, because I do think that we we do we mentor people even in our own lives that maybe are in mental health, but we're providing some guidance. It doesn't mean we're providing service to them, but helping impart knowledge and, you know, disseminating information that's good for people. And I think that's just such an important part of this where, you know, I guess in this mentoring mentee relationship there. As we're talking, there's like these three pieces that keep coming up and it's No. One is the of the willingness to learn and the willingness to take feedback and be open. And we kind of like know that adage, if you know you can't do it or coming in with an empty cup or at least some space in our cup that we're able to take in new information and learn and grow. But the other side that I hear is we have to also be confident in ourselves. We have to be able to feel like we have something to offer and recognizing the value that that has. Because for Phil's and Bardo, it was getting lunch and, you know, sharing some of the things that are going on. And for you, it was this transformative experience and the recognition that I think each individual has that power, that ability. And I think this third piece of some form of relationship and it again, doesn't have to be a long standing relationship, but a really present oriented one. I had the thought earlier of, you know, I mentioned like even in childhood, like, you know, teachers can be mentors for us. But that my thought then went to like, you know, not all teachers are mentors to all students, but all mentors are teachers. And so, you know, there's has to be some form of interaction that goes a bit beyond just sharing of information. There has to be some personalization or that moment, however brief, to help open up a new pathway and a new guidance there. I think those are great three great points to make and I think they apply no matter which part of the mentoring relationship you're in. And I think even as a mentor, you can't have a full cop. You know, you have you have to have that that little space to also grow in that process. And yeah, I mean, I think those are I think is are great ways to summarize it is that it it really it is those three things that that come into play and it's yeah I. I think it's such an important piece to my career. And, you know, I mentioned them at the the ABCD conference and you know, I got up this morning and I went down to get registered and you know, I hear my name called and. It's a gentleman who was a doc student of mine, Ash. Probably in 2008, somewhere around that range. And and so I'll shout out Dr. Brian Coffman. He's a psychologist in the New Jersey, New York area. And he is you know, he called me. I haven't seen him for years. But, you know, Brian was a guy who was in classes with me. It was part of his dissertation process and and all of those things. And it was like, I just saw him a week ago. Like, I mean, it was like, that relationship is so important and comes back. And hearing the great things that he's doing and hearing, you know, the things that he's doing to change lives of people like it are great. And it's like, you know, I said as I was walking up here to to record, I thought, you know, actually a better way to start your day. Like I said, it's just such an empowering thing. And and again, that relationship piece, which I know, you know, I think we bring up relationship at least once an episode it feels like or at least every at least so yeah, it feels that way. But how powerful it is and you know, it's like, you know, and then, you know, just hearing again what he's doing and what other, you know, students that were in his class that he has connection with and has. It's great. And and again, being able to see people do things better than what you do that is just so awesome and that that role. And yeah, I mean, I think we all should take time to do it no matter what level it is. Being a mentor and never stop being a mentee I think is is key. And. You know, especially like if we're looking at it from that more mentor perspective, like I cannot but think about the, the, the Barbie movie and there's a great it's just a very like, you know, that's such a well done movie. But there at the very end, you know, the actress who is, you know, playing Barbie is they're talking to, you know, the individual who's kind of the creator of Barbie, you know, with Mattel, you know, you know, she's sharing the idea of being a mother. And like, you know what? Being a mother is is at times it's standing still, you know, and being that support to help, you know, your daughter surpass you and continue to thrive and grow. And that's such a beautiful sentiment. And also, I think one that we can we can also play here a bit. And it's not, you know, in a parent child relationship, but it's there's still a development of growth and skill and a desire, you know, to see them thrive. And so, you know, and being a mentor, a part of it is helping to promote and create things that go beyond yourself. And then also, if we get the value of being a mentee, we also get to go and do those great things. And if we get to play both roles, we get the benefits of both. And I think it's something I would encourage all of our listeners to really try to think about the individuals in their lives that they're helping to grow and support and the individuals who are helping to support them. Yeah, yeah. It's you are saying that you know it. I, I'm sure people can look this up and find it on YouTube, but there's a video of of Fred Rogers and Mister Rogers from Mister Rogers neighborhood who at one point I want to see won a Golden Globe. And and what was interesting was, you know you know what what an interesting guy and just in so many ways and his kindness and and I mean it's definitely part of my childhood but this guy gets this award for a lifetime achievement. And he he stands up there and he says, I want everybody to just pause and I'm I'm going to time how long it's going to take or how long we're going to take. And I want you to think of all the people in your life who got you here, and it's not. So he made this whole speech, not about him, like he won a lifetime achievement award. He made it about all of his mentors that got him there. And and he encouraged the whole audience to just pause for a second and think of the legacy that kind of happens to get us where we're at in our career. And it's one of the most it's it's maybe 25 seconds and maybe one of the best speeches of an award ceremony I've ever seen. And literally, people in the audience who are you know, many actors and actresses are just tears running down their face as they think about the power of what influence people have. And it's quite beautiful. Like, it's actually like like when you were saying about like the Barbie movie and stuff, it was like for some reason it clicked in my head because I thought, you know, gosh, here's a guy who, you know, was part of many people's lives and in their living rooms in the morning and and the day that he wins the speech, that's where he goes. He goes to all the people that shaped who he was. And yeah, man, if we all just do a little of that, right? I mean, it's just such a, I think, a cool concept. So you got to check out the video of its own. I mean, we can find the clip and put it in the show notes because it is an awesome it's an awesome just short clip to watch that now. I love that. And I think when we're wrapping up, I'm going to be going in search of that myself. And, you know, I can't, you know, sharing that in, you know, as we're talking or we're sharing about like all these, like just how valuable and the great experiences with mentorship that we've had. And, you know, it reminds me of a recent if it was up an article or even just kind of a just a short little blog post that someone had made sharing how they felt like they weren't getting the mentorship that they wanted or needed from their clinical supervisor and that they were going to an eye program. And they felt like they were getting more out of that experience at the program than they were from the clinical from their clinical supervisor. And, you know, that that really had me pausing and thinking just kind of like what is what is happening there? And, you know, and I'm a huge I think AI is a wonderful tool. But going back to those three pieces of, you know, we have to be, you know, a willingness to learn, you know, a willingness to teach and share and the ability to have some sort of relationship and kind of being present. I don't know that I. Tells all of those pieces, at very least. And. Yeah. And. Yeah, I'm just like. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah. Wow. I mean I mean, yeah. I mean, I guess, you know. I've been so, I guess luckier, blessed or whatever word we want to use in my career because I haven't had that most mentors, I've really gotten something out of it, and I'm sure that's not the experience for everybody. So part of me is like maybe a little saddened to hear that like this, that, that that's what people want. But I guess it means people are having those experiences. I think maybe we have to step back and ask a couple questions. One is, what do I want from mentor, from mentorship? What am I looking for? And you know, if you're just looking for answers, then yeah, probably I was going to give it to you. If you just want something to tell you the information, then that's it. And but if you want to be better at critically thinking and you want to process things, I don't know that I can do that. And I think so. Asking questions, what do we want? And maybe the other question is, what are we bringing? Because, I mean, I think that's as as somebody who's been on both ends, I think what we bring to the the mentoring table is important. You know, I think we had when we had Bob Freedberg on a while back, I told the story about meeting Bob for the first time. And and I say I actually get emotional when I think about this, actually his comment. But he said to me, you know, in that episode and I wasn't expecting it, but I said, you know, I had approached him and he said, hey, let's do something together. And and his response when we were talking about it was, I saw something in you like. And that's why that's why I invited you like you brought something to the table was kind of what I heard from him. And I thought, Wow, okay. Like, I didn't think about it that way. Like, I thought of, like, you know, my, my whole career up to this point, I'm thinking, man, this guy's just this wonderful guy and then he reciprocates it backing. Is that like there was something in our interaction that you brought that made me want to connect with you and do something. So the person in this I experience, I would say maybe we have to self-reflect a little bit and kind of go, what are we bringing to that? You know, are we just asking questions and expecting answers or are we challenging that person? And we are looking at a relationship where we both get better. And so I think yeah, I mean, I hope people don't think mentorship is somebody telling you what to do or just giving you information that you can re mentorships a process mentorship is, you know those three things that you've mentioned that you know, the relationship, the teaching, the learning, all of those things. And I don't know, maybe I gets there one day, but I don't know. I don't know if that's if we're talking about the same thing. I think from my standpoint, there's a lot more to it. I can read and get knowledge. But that never replaces the process that happens when you're connecting with somebody. Where you do that can help you kind of advance what your knowledge is. That's just my take. I mean, what would your thoughts on it? And really it's that. That the willingness to learn, the willingness to be wrong or take feedback. And, you know, I don't know for this individual and certainly it could be, you know, that the the mentor themselves, you know, was just more so regurgitating information so that that is absolutely possible. But, you know, in that and I don't know that I would necessarily even identify that as a mentoring relationship to begin with. Yeah, because in some ways maybe there wasn't a relationship, but being able to recognize, you know. In this. I'm supposed to feel challenged. I'm supposed to feel vulnerable. And in that being built up and being, you know, kind of cultivating a better version of myself and, you know, I'm thinking of, you know, even some some individuals in my life that I think. There's almost a sense of distrust when it comes to others. And it's like, well, what are your intentions? Are you just using me? And like, they're in some ways it's like, Yeah, but also you're using me and like, that's not a bad thing. You know, we can use each other to better each other and like that and let's be open to the process. So I guess like that's the when, when talking about, you know, the learning, a huge part of that is I'm open to the process and I'm open to the ups and downs and, you know, the hardships in the winds. And I'm hoping that that person is able to find someone that can really kind of help support them in that, because AA is a great tool. But it is a tool. That's a tool. Yeah. And I and I'm glad you brought up I mean, listen, there are bad mentors out there. Like I mean, I don't want to take that. I mean, there are there are some people who just are in it for the wrong reasons. And that happens. And but I think if you're in that situation, you know, again, be reflective, ask some questions about what you want. And if it's not the right person, find someone else. There's a lot of people that are willing to connect. And like I've said, like I've been shocked how many people I've just kind of met for the first time and said, Hey, I'd like to connect. And you know, we've partnered on things and they've taught me things and hopefully I've taught them things. So ask, you know, ask other people, find somebody that you're interested in their work and reach out to them. And, you know, I think what we have going for us in the mental health field is maybe social services in general is we are a group that wants to want to help. And I love when people ask me questions. I think it's great. Like, I mean, it's wonderful. I mean, there's times that I can't do it because of maybe a scheduling thing, but I, yeah, I am never, it's never off putting. And I hope that the people that feel that way then ask somebody else, don't give up on the process because you had a bad experience. Ask around and find somebody that maybe fits your needs better. And I think it's there because there is somebody that will do. And you know, I don't think we often do this, but I guess this is maybe a bit of that call to action to to our audience of, you know, reflect, you know, engage in some of that self-reflection there for yourselves of, you know, be willing to be that expert, be willing to be that learner, be willing to connect and, you know, working to make the world a better place. That's it. I agree. And I see. And with that, you know, we hope you enjoy this episode. Check back in with us in two weeks. But until then, be well. Stay psyched. The information contained in this podcast and on the site. The practice website is intended for informational and educational purposes only. Nothing in this podcast or on the website is intended to be a substitute for professional, psychological, psychiatric, educational or medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Please note that no professional patient relationship is formed here, and similarly, no supervisory or consultative relationship is formed between the host guest and listeners of this podcast. If you need the qualified advice of a mental health professional or practitioner, please contact services in your area. Similarly, if you need supervision on clinical matters, please locate a supervisor with experience to fit your professional needs.