Practice in Action: A Deep Dive into 'Hi Ren'

Most of us have a voice in our head that isn’t always kind. But what if you could hear that voice argue with your better self—set to music? In this episode, we break down Ren’s powerful song Hi Ren, a raw and intense depiction of the struggle between self-doubt and self-empowerment. From the way he personifies intrusive thoughts to the way he finds his way back to hope, this song is a masterclass in mental health awareness. Join us as we unpack its meaning, how it relates to therapy, and why it left us speechless.

Youtube Video: https://youtu.be/s_nc1IVoMxc?si=MB1RcnM7fXCtbQSQ 

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/track/0FLwYQoXvX8q5iRZnFX59u?si=01541158852a4c63

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Transcript

 Hello and welcome to the Psyched to Practice podcast, your one stop for practical and useful clinical information, masterful insights from experts in the field, and a guide to daily living. Ray and I are back today. Um, we really enjoyed doing the Kendrick Lamar Kind of breakdown surrounding his Super Bowl performance and wanted to just be able to continue to put out things. I don't know that this is going to be a constant thing, but today we have something that's Interesting. And I don't know that we've done anything like this before either, right? Right. Yeah, we really haven't. And it's, you know, it's kind of interesting because I mean, I think this, um, I think both of us and I think a lot of people we've had as guests, you know, we talk about this idea of using pop culture and talking about using music and celebrities and how that kind of connects in therapy. And, you know, so today, like, you know, There was a song that was kind of given to me where I had somebody say, Hey, like you got to check out this song. And it became a real interesting part in a, of a therapy session with someone that I had. And then I ended up Kind of really liking this artist. So the artist that we're going to talk about today is a guy by the name of Ren. So Ren Gill is his real name, but he just goes by Ren. So he has a song that's a couple years old that's called High Ren that I think may be one of the most powerful songs I've heard. And so I shared it with Paul and I said like, We got to talk about this guy and talk a little bit about the song and kind of how it relates to mental health. And so while we're not able to share it with you before you're listening in, if you'd like to Please pause. There's going to be different links to the song in the show notes. And if you're seeing this on social media, we're going to have the video tagged as well as the YouTube video. You're not driving and you have the opportunity to, let's say watching the music video is, it just kind of takes it to that next level in terms of getting the experience, but even just listening, I think it, it has a lot of meaning and a lot of power here. Yeah, it's really funny because I heard the song first. Then I went back and saw the video and I was like, wow, it took me to a whole different level. And they just... Again, I think we said this with kind of the Kendrick Lamar thing. The artistry is just, it's kind of brilliant. So hopefully you all have listened to it by the time you're, we're in this discussion, but just to give you a Bren has been pretty open about having some health issues as well as some mental health issues throughout his life and this song was kind of this dialogue with himself and it's this kind of back and forth and You know, I will say just kind of a little warning. It's a little dark at times. There's some real powerful language that some people might think is offensive, but is really meaningful. And we're going to talk about why it's meaningful because What we say to ourselves doesn't sound polite all the time and I think that's what he illustrates quite beautifully in this song is this idea of this dialogue and not only what he says but The change of pace, the change of volume, the change of intensity, that negative thoughts counter with what we're, or how we're trying to counter negative thoughts and what that kind of sounded out loud with music I thought was interesting. And, you know, one of the, as we're talking in it, it is like that representation of his own, I would say, like the self-doubt, the anxiety, the depression. I believe he even mentioned later on that, um, he, he's had psychosis before as well. Yeah. There's so much of that. And then there's this piece that's looking for, you know, just positivity in his life. It's the positive self-talk. It's the confidence. It's the self-love. And these two kind of You know, initially conversing and then kind of getting into this heated back and forth. And one of the things that really strikes me is that this idea of Really, he's personifying his mental health and, you know, it's actually something that at times in sessions I will encourage and I think even you've shared before of encouraging individuals to You know, talk to their depression. I think it was in our swear words really matter episode. You talked about that. Right. I don't know if it was your experience or just a study, but. You know, swearing at our depression and saying, you know, like, no, like, damn it, not today. And so I think he does that really well in this song. Yeah. The way that it starts off at the beginning of the conversation, really it's this negative self-talk coming back in and it's almost kind of sneaking back in. And so it's, you know, I, you know, did you miss me? It's been a while. Right. It's kind of like this restarting and trying to pull him in. And then the first time we hear that more kind of calming, you know, positive self-reflection It is a very calming response. It's very subdued and, um, and he kind of goes about that in a very, a very mellow way in terms of just talking about making time for himself, being distant, um, and, you know, working towards himself. And then it ratchets up from there. And I think that's an interesting dynamic because as the song goes on, I find that our negative self-talk gets a reaction. And I see that so frequently in sessions. It's, you know, we try to approach it with this, you know, it's respect in a way, like a respectful, very like gentle way of approaching and talking to ourselves. And the negative self-talk is just kind of like, Fuck that. No, who are you? Like, you're a poser, you're a sellout, you're all, you're this and you're that. And like in session so frequently, the language that we try to encourage is Like, hey, no, I'm not okay with that. Like bringing out that assertiveness. And I think the song does a great job of like sharing that, getting a rise. And then again, towards the end, we hear the tone of assertiveness that comes out. Yeah, so I know there's other people that have kind of talked about this song and I think a lot of times it's funny because I think some of the therapists who have talked about it Go way too into this is a psychotic break. I mean, not saying that that's can be possible, but I, I, I almost heard this is just what people experience every day. And, you know, kind of to your point, I think one of the things that was that caught me this, this negative talk, it start, that's what starts the song and it's rapid, it's aggressive. You thought you buried me. That's risky. Like it's this like challenging, like why would you try not to listen to me? And it's coming out. And I look at him in this kind of intense way. When he responds back, he does so in almost a politeness, like, you know, and he's trying to justify it. I've been trying to be distant. You know, I often talk to kids, I'll say like, or even adults, we have to match the intensity of the negative thought. And as the song goes on, you get this kind of feel like the songs. And as he does, as he ramps it up, as he starts talking back a little forceful, the thoughts come even more intensely. So it's like, you know, his negative thoughts are like, Just take another pill boy, you know, like really almost belittling him for his struggles. And, and I think why this song connects is Is that in reality, it's, it's what we deal with, whether it's depression, whether it's anxiety, whether it's psychosis. There is a pattern of this loudness and we do, we work hard to fight those thoughts, but a bully does get louder. A bully gets more mean and even the language he uses. So like, you know, his, the Ren that's fighting back doesn't swear very much in the song. But the Ren that's the negative voice, you know, it's like, you're a fucking dumb boy. Yeah. You know, this intensity. And, you know, when, when I, When I talk with people and I say, I don't want you to filter what your thoughts are. I want you to say them out loud, how they sound in your head. It's not nice. I mean, it's not like Hey, you made a mistake. It's you're an idiot. You fucked up again, whatever it might be. And he captures that dialogue with, with just, I mean, honestly, like it, it's, it's, it's quite masterful. So, I mean, you, you can tell in this song, this guy is, this guy's done work. I mean, he's, he's, and he's critical of it, which we can talk about in a minute, but he's not always positive about what his experience was. And I think that's awesome. I think that that's a reality, but Yeah, this, I mean, I, I don't know that I've, I've seen a, a quite the display of dialogue like this that matches so much with what I've heard in my career. And I think in some ways it's, it's also, it's that poking fun of and also showing a respect for the field of mental health and treatment there where, you know, in, in, You know, I have the lyrics pulled up here and it's, uh, you know, oh, follow this ten step program and rejoice. All your problems will be gone. You fucking dumb boy. Like, right. It's, you know, and that's kind of this, like when I bring up a diaphragmatic breathing with individuals, like a fifty fifty that I get kind of an eye roll. It's like, okay, yeah. Breathing exercise. That's wonderful. And, and it's like this dismissiveness of certain pieces or even the way that it's presented. It's kind of being presented as this like, oh, hey, you know, just do this and it's going to work. And he's like, are you kidding? Of course it's not going to work. And the process is such an important part, but also the engagement with and like being able to, to be a part of the process. And I hear, you know, that's kind of the, that this negative self talk that he's going into, he's like, you don't believe anything. And this, you know, you, you know that this is going to fail. Don't lie to yourself. Don't kid to yourself. And being able to really pause and I think it challenges that resolve. And I think, and you know, I think we'll talk about it in a bit. But towards the end, man, you hear the belief. You hear it and it's the, it goes from kind of using the language to really believing in the language and believe and inspiring hope for himself and in such a positive way. Yeah, I agree. And there's, you know, there, there are, there's those flavors of saying, hey, some of this stuff didn't work for me. They, they just kept giving me medication. They kept giving me the ten steps or to say the right, and all of these different things that he kind of goes through. And then I think that we're again, kind of this shift that, that happens. You hear this, not only a little bit of hope, but you hear things that sound, you know, as a psychologist, I sat back going, oh, that's mindfulness, right? Like it's, I'm going to, I'm going to be disappointed. I'm going to take some time for myself. You know, there's this peacefulness that kind of comes in like, which again, I think it's what I appreciated about it is listen, everything doesn't work for everyone. And this is work. It's hard work. And I think that his dialogue kind of illustrates that like, yeah, maybe there were a lot of good fits for. For some interventions that he did and he calls that out and yeah, I saw somebody else that was talking about the song and they were critical of that and they said, oh, he's, you know, he's putting down mental health. No, like, I mean, I think Like, listen, we have to have some honesty with the idea that not everything works for everybody. And I think that that rawness of saying, yeah, like those things failed me that and that's okay. But the hope is the fact that. Yes, that didn't work, but I finally found some things that did. And that's where, again, you kind of hear that shift. And it's also, I think, in this song where his voice becomes louder, his voice becomes confident. His voice starts standing up, you know, and, you know, and I think, I think the line is he goes into this idea that, you know, my name changes to hope or people now know me as hope like this, where there's Boy, there's this mindset shift. Um, but again, it, it gets a little, it sounds a little dark. You know, he talks about that. I'm the one who loosens the noose of the rope or on the rope. Like this idea that that hope is what's creating this change. And so I, again, it's kind of, uh, I think there's a lot of ways you can interpret it. But as I kind of went through, I was like, oh, wow, we go from difficulty to kind of finding the right things for him. And I'm so happy you Brought up that, that line. Cause if you did, I was going to jump in. Cause that's such a powerful, like that's such a powerful one. And even the verses like that, that follow and it's, um, and you know how I'll know that I'll prosper. Yeah. Wow. Right. Yeah, I mean, and it goes on into even just some more powerful pieces there and, and to the other side of that hope, the other, the other side piece of it's when it's the negative self-talk. It really blows itself up and it talks about how it is, you know, from the dawn of creation, I am temptation and the reason for treason, the beheading of all kings. I am the sin with no rhyme or reason and it just goes on and it's, it's. Wow, yeah. It talks about bringing in chaos and it really does seek to just kind of destroy or tear us down. And I think a lot of times, you know, that negative self-talk, we, we think of it as a protection. We think of it as like, oh, if I don't get too big, then I can't be torn down too, you know, too strongly. And he touches on that as well, especially if we're too rigid in this like, no, I, You know, I have nothing but belief in myself. Yeah. How, you know, I think, well, I'll kind of go into the very end of the song. He goes into this more just a conversation with the audience. Yeah. He talks about this pendulum swinging idea of as we progress, we also regress and uh, it's such a powerful piece because we He's not denying that. He's, he's recognizing how both are important. Like the self-doubt creates awareness, but we need to have that faith and belief in ourself that we're able to accomplish, that we're able to be resilient and persevere and, you know, I mean, hope. Yeah, and I want to jump back to just kind of another line that, you know, it really, you know, so it was interesting. This song for me was amazing. A little bit of an emotional journey. Like I've actually found myself kind of choking up at points when I first heard it. And like I said, that's when you know it really strikes you. There's a, there's a line in the song and it's, it's dark, but it's, he uses the line, you got to, you have to kill you if you want to kill me. Like this idea that, you know, and I honestly, it was like kind of a point, like I almost like paused the song kind of went like, whoa, like that's, but like such a powerful statement that this idea that You know, the only way I can get rid of this negativity is I have to eliminate who I, who I am. And, you know, again, when we talk about suicide and, you know, That is a thought that people have. It's the only way I'm going to get rid of this pain. I have to kill the pain. And so, I mean, I thought that was really like It was a take back moment for me. And then when you later on, then hear this kind of, again, going back to that hope, what have we heard from suicide research for years? You know, what is, what's, what's the flip? We have to create hope. We have to have that piece and you know that we see that dialogue kind of play out here in the, in the song. So I just wanted to call that piece out because as people are listening to it, Listen to the intentionality that happens at that moment in the song. It really is done with, again, there's an artistic genius that kind of comes out here, but It creates this powerful pause at the end of that sentence before he then goes into that, that next piece. And just in that, just such a powerful, like, I mean, powerful, I think is, is, Resonates with the entirety of the song. Um, and I would say powerful and haunting and not just haunting in a negative way. It's unsettling, but haunting also kind of in that like inspiring way. God, he just does such a great job for both and really in that end point where it is just that conversation and it's, you know, he, he talks about the. The swaying of back and forth between the dark and the light, the, um, and the more intense the light shown, the darker the shadow is cast. Yeah. And I love my favorite lines. Yeah. It's so brilliantly done. And yeah, Yeah. And he talks about it as this, again, two sides of the same coin and recognizing it. It's not that we are meant to, you know, lock, you know, lock it away in its entirety. It's how do we hear it, but also not let it be the only voice. And how do we be resilient and stand beside it in a way that we can get insight. We can get that almost even a push, you know, because he goes from gentle to confident throughout the song. So it's a push that it gives him, but also we can't let it go untamed or else it'll consume. And so I think that's what he's talking about in this needing to be gentle. We can't just let, you know, um, the more rigid I became, the harder it got, the more The more I cursed my clumsy footsteps, the more I struggled. And as I got older, I learned to relax and learn to soften and that dance got easier. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's, I mean, there's, there's like, honestly, like I sat there, I was like, if I was teaching an intro to psychology class, this is how I would teach the theory of psychology because, so we have this like, you know, this idea of the darker shadow, like that whole piece. You know, very Jungian, right? Like this idea of the shadow, like this archetype and um, you know, there's this idea that we all live with that. Like, we all have a darker piece. Like, there's always those moments. And that line of when the light is shown, the darker the shadow is cast. Again, for me, I kind of went like, okay, here's the idea of when we make progress. That it's scary. You know, as we get happier, we have a harder fall with our depression. You know, we have this, this kind of, yes, it becomes almost more prominent than when we were depressed. And yeah, we talk about, How about that in therapy? You know, I mean, I talk with people all the time. I'm like, listen, as you, as you get well, as things feel better for you, that That darkness can sometimes feel really overwhelming when it hits. And again, we prepare people for that's part of, of this process. Building wellness in ourselves. The other, the other, from a theoretical standpoint is I love the, the cursed by my clumsy footsteps kind of, See, I actually felt there was a very acceptance, like an ACT, acceptance and commitment therapy kind of piece that happens. I don't know that that's what he's gone through or if he's clearly he's heard some of the language. Because, you know, it was like this idea, the more rigid I became, the harder it got. Great, great line, right? So it's... You know, this idea we have to accept, you know, if we do have mental health problems, the first step is that we can't just push against it. Sometimes that makes it worse. And a lot of times it makes it worse. But when we just take a moment and step back and accept this is who we are and we can work through it, we can move forward with it. Uh, you know, again, it kind of gave me those, I don't know if you got the same thing, but I was like, I'm like, man, this is an ACT kind of, you know, comment in the line, in the, in the middle there. And, you know, maybe even another kind of Theoretical piece that comes to mind was going, jumping back to the beginning of the song where I would like to directly quote it just because it's so well done. You know, it's been a while, did you miss me? You thought you could bury me, didn't you? And then it jumps ahead to deep down, you know, deep, deep down, you know, that I'm in the periphery. And my thought goes to the avoidance and how it's this like, okay, you know, like, let me just shut it out. Let me just kind of... Kind of, you know, keep it, keep it pushed away. And what a relief when I'm able to avoid something and it gives that short term gratification, but it's not been that long term skill building that's needed to be able to tolerate it. And it's tolerating and creating, again, that acceptance piece at the very end is so powerful and so important. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think there's, I mean, honestly, throughout the song, I think there's very similar things. It was, again, like I, I don't know, my brain kind of goes into all these tangents, but like that, that part you were just talking about, it made me think of the old movie, A Beautiful Mind. You know, in the end of the movie, like, you know, he's John Nash is, you know, who had schizophrenia at that time. You know, he talks about like, I have to live with my hallucinations. They're never gone. And you know, in the movie, I thought it illustrated it really well. And I read John Nash's actual book that he wrote that I would encourage those that are interested in that. It's actually quite, quite interesting. But it's this idea that, yeah, they're with me. These things are part of who I am. And part of his healing with something as severe as schizophrenia is Was to acknowledge that that was part of his life. He wasn't trying to get rid of them, you know, and they walked beside him. They walked beside him through the end of that movie. And so that kind of cued me to that, which, you know, again, there's so many references you can kind of pull here. But, you know, as we kind of wrap up, I want to end with, I want to end with his ending because I think it's very, again, kind of a beautiful statement. For me, it was just powerful. And again, listen to the song, but take, take, Five minutes and watch this video because the illustrations and the lights and just how he does the ending is really good. The song ends with just this dialogue. There's no music at this point. And he ends with the statement. It is this eternal dance that separates human beings from angels, from demons, from gods. And I must not forget. We must not forget. That we are human beings. This, wow, like a great, great piece, you know, again, theoretically, getting back to just Kind of humanistic psychology at its, at its core that we have to going back to our, our episode with Chris Germer. We have to give ourselves compassion. We have to give ourselves some grace. And despite all of these things, at the end of the day, we have to remember we're human beings. When, when I had the chance to work with Albert Ellis, he, he would always say we're all fallible human beings. Um, You know, it's at the end of the day, we all have kind of these issues and we just, in some ways, it's just this idea. We have to recognize it and give ourselves that, that kind of, you know, again, that compassion and what a great way to end such an intense song. By just hitting that core piece because it's, I think we all need to be better at that. So I thought it was a good ending. What was your reaction? Same thoughts. It absolutely was. And, um, it's, I, I was thinking of, you know, Chris Grimmer as well with the, uh, especially the, the, the need to be both gentle and fierce with our self-compassion and you hear both in this and it's, you know, it's, it's, well, we see both in that positive self-talk and When it comes to that compassion, because the criticism comes easily, you know, it comes when we don't want that to come. And so we need to be very, again, that intentional bringing it in and making that space to find that, you know. That eternal dance and finding the balance and the harmony, you know, to maybe pull in some Michael Alcy as well with the, uh. That's right. With that dance. That's right. Well, I, um, I'm glad we had a chance to talk about this. Those of you who are interested in just intense music and things that have meaning, we're talking about one song I've I've become kind of a huge fan of this guy. I think he's doing brilliant work. And some of some of the songs are this is one example, but some of his others. You know, touch on domestic violence and other mental health kind of things. But those of you that like tying this stuff into therapy, um. This, this gives you a lot. I mean, this, the person who, who was gracious enough to share the song with me that that's made me a fan of listening to, to Ren's music and using it now with a lot of other people. We had three sessions of digesting this and how it, what it meant to this young man who for the first time heard a song that was his thought. So kudos to Ren and the good work he's doing to, uh, break some stigma down. So I'm glad we got to chat. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, uh, you know, I've been liking these, uh, again, I don't know if we want to call them supplemental content or bonus episodes, but, you know, just being able to pick something and, and breaking it apart or talking about the impact it has and, uh, With that, be sure to check out our new episodes that are dropping. But until then, be well and stay psyched.