Western Conference Finals Controversy: Reexamining Game Six (2002)

Can controversial officiating truly alter the course of a game? Join us on this week's episode of the Backseat Critics as we reexamine the dramatic fourth quarter of the 2002 Western Conference Finals Game Six. We break down every contentious call, from the illegal screen to the series of questionable fouls, and debate their impact on the outcome. Our discussion also delves into the monumental influence of Shaquille O'Neal, comparing his legacy to contemporary legends like Steph Curry and Steve Nash, and exploring Nash's remarkable career, especially his synergy with Dirk Nowitzki.

Shifting gears, we scrutinize the unique challenges of refereeing in playoff basketball. The increased physicality and altered standards of officiating come under the microscope as we analyze incidents like Scott Pollard's controversial block attempt against Shaq and Kobe Bryant's infamous flying elbow. We question the fairness and intent of these moments, offering balanced perspectives on how such decisions shape the game. Tune in for heated debates, insightful analysis, and a deep dive into the intricacies of playoff basketball that every fan will appreciate!

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:01

today we're talking about 2002's western conference finals. Oh game six.

Speaker 2 0:08

We're not just diving in for where we left off with rock, or is this a two-parter? This is a two-part oh but releases one, one whole, cohesive, okay episode so this is part two of the two-parter this is oh okay, sorry, r RJ's with the program now. Well, welcome back to the Backseat Critics. My name is RJ, my name is Andrew.

Speaker 1 0:36

This is a podcast where we review things that you should or should not steer clear of, and, today, that you should or should not steer clear of and today you know what I got a feeling in the air Reaching into the back. I got the feeling in the air. My hair on the back of my neck, my like six foot neck, is like standing on end and I'm like the NBA finals are coming up and they're coming up hot.

Speaker 2 1:00

Oh, they're already happening by the time that this is released, and I know.

Speaker 1 1:05

I know. I know deep down in my heart that the Chicago Hornets are going to take this win.

Speaker 2 1:13

No, it's Mavericks and Celtics right now. So the question is do you want to root for Tay?

Speaker 1 1:22

God bless you. Seattle Dolphins, the Seattle Dolphins, huh.

Speaker 2 1:26

Okay, we're really getting into it now.

Speaker 1 1:30

For those who don't know.

Speaker 2 1:30

Andrew doesn't know basketball. This is actually one of his first basketball, not his first not his very first.

Speaker 1 1:37

No, definitely not my first viewing of a basketball game Absolutely not A good understanding or a good attempt at understanding it.

Speaker 2 1:44

I think One of your first good attempts Not your very first attempt, but your very good first attempt at it this was an eye-opener. This is an eye-opener to how the game should not be called sometimes.

Speaker 1 1:55

Yeah, sorry, I got a little Tim Donaghy in my.

Speaker 2 2:01

A little Tim Donaghy Gotcha.

Speaker 1 2:05

Anyways, where would you like to jump off on this?

Speaker 2 2:10

Let's just go right into it. So we're going to pick off specifically in the fourth quarter.

Speaker 1 2:15

Okay.

Speaker 2 2:15

That's where we're going to kick off. Okay, that's where we watch, where most of the calls were controversial that they like to say during that time period, and the first call, the first thing that we see, I'm going to be completely honest here.

Speaker 1 2:28

Yeah, uh, let's discuss more of the actions. Let's drop the names. I'm not going to know the names okay, first call.

Speaker 2 2:35

Uh, you see a call of a guy who gets called for an illegal scream yeah, yeah. Thoughts on that. What do you think?

Speaker 1 2:46

Out of the other calls that we saw that didn't feel like the worst.

Speaker 2 2:50

No, I don't feel like that was the worst either it was.

Speaker 1 2:53

So tame it was, you can kind of make the argument. You can make the argument either way and that's why I'm saying it's tame. There's ones later on that definitely, as someone who doesn't watch basketball like you know, you you know, so that's bad the next call is uh, you said no names, but I mean you can, you can drop names.

Speaker 2 3:17

Shack, okay, shack, um. Who's shack? Probably one of the greatest basketball players of all time.

Speaker 1 3:24

What.

Speaker 2 3:27

Yeah, and he is.

Speaker 1 3:29

Because of him. Okay, let's back up here. Let's beep beep, beep. Back up that truck. What do you mean? Shaq is the best basketball player of all time.

Speaker 2 3:44

No, no, no, no, no. Do not gaslight me here, sir. I said he is one of the best of all time.

Speaker 1 3:52

Beep, beep, beep.

Speaker 2 3:57

You said best. I said one of the best Review. The footage Review, the audio All right. One of the best of all time all right.

Speaker 1 4:10

So why do you think Steph Curry is the best basketball player of all time?

Speaker 2 4:15

I have never said that either.

Speaker 1 4:17

That's a back-ass light too why was he the best point guard of all time?

Speaker 2 4:25

of all time. I might agree with that statement, actually, and he's got good takes but. But I have a hotter take for that one but anyways, uh shack, go for it I think he a hotter take for that. Yeah, steve nash. Oh, not a lot of people would say that. It's like 10 years earlier, mm-hmm Okay, when Steve Nash was in his prime.

Speaker 1 4:51

I just think he was. Are you saying that because he kind of like paved the way, kind of thing?

Speaker 2 4:54

No, not at all. I just think he there was a point where he accounted for like 80 to 90 points for his team, Dang.

Speaker 1 5:07

Mm-hmm.

Refereeing in Playoff Basketball

Speaker 2 5:08

That's insane. Every night he accounted for, I think, about 50 points for his team almost Okay. So I just think he was just a great team player In his prime. Nash was great. It's sad that him and Dirk couldn't have a longer run together. Jerk jeter, uh, dirk, dirk nowinski so close, so close.

Speaker 1 5:33

Not the yankee clipper here all right, uh, second call shack check.

Speaker 2 5:39

Yes, uh, scott pollard goes straight up and down trying to block a shot or what people think was straight up and down. At the time he put both his hands up and just kind of jumped up right.

Speaker 1 5:51

But if you look closely, Shaq throws that right at his face right.

Speaker 2 5:55

No, he does a little pelvic, a little bump bump. You know bump bump, his pelvic region does go forward compared to his hands. So in reality it is a foul. But we're playing playoff basketball and it's ticky, tacky foul and usually we don't get those types of calls in playoff basketball so really so is.

Speaker 1 6:13

Uh, is playoff basketball a little bit looser?

Speaker 2 6:15

than like just normal. A little bit more physical, gotcha, more physical interesting yep, so we saw a lot of that.

Speaker 1 6:24

We saw a lot of that. What so was was the next call, the one where he makes contact with the guy's face, not not the punch, oh, you're talking about the kobe bryant flying elbow yeah, no, we're saving that one. No, where he like threw the ball and like hit the guy I don't remember this one. He was like he's going I forget if he was going up or rebounding the ball and there's somebody right there and he threw it and like it just straight on hit them when there's like a clear shot around them.

Speaker 2 6:58

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I mean I can.

Speaker 1 7:00

I remember that being maybe I'm conflating that like. Correct me fact checkers. He did the off the heezy I just. I remember that being Maybe. I'm conflating that, correct me fact checkers. You did the off the heezy. I just remember that I remember that being called and being like. That's weird. I could see that being a oops. I made a bad throw.

Speaker 2 7:16

You know, what I kind of wonder too in these games is I mean, I used to ref basketball, right Brag. Sometimes I'd run and I'd get a little winded and I would sound my whistle from having the whistle in my mouth and accidentally blow.

Speaker 1 7:34

You got to pretend like you saw something. Got to pretend like you saw something at that point.

Speaker 2 7:39

I kind of wonder if that happens in this game maybe. Yeah, how much happens in the NBA? That's a good question. I mean, you know, in my career a couple of times I was honest and say oh sorry, breathed a little hard ball on the side, get the game going again. Other times I was just like that guy fouled him.

Speaker 1 8:05

No, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What's the ratio?

Speaker 2 8:09

here. What's the ratio from being honest to yeah, I'd say honesty was probably about 70% of the time, 30% of the time making a weird call.

Speaker 1 8:18

All right audience. Flip those numbers. He's lying.

Speaker 2 8:21

I'm not lying, but I'll tell you what. Usually, when that 30% came in, is because some kid pissed me off in that game. We're just going to use around somebody the funny thing is you're talking about preschoolers. Oh no, I'm talking about at least junior high.

Speaker 1 8:38

Man way to kill that joke you just killed that Sometime high school. You just walk that joke up to the curb and just poof, no, so, actually killed.

Speaker 2 8:53

You just killed that sometime high school. You just walk that joke up to the curb and just no so actually I I reffed. I think it was second and third graders one time, or no. First and second graders okay, they don't call anything. I was told not to call anything except like out of bounds, maybe a vicious foul. I was like okay. So so I refed with at the time the person that was in charge of reffing Do first, second graders?

Speaker 1 9:09

do they play dirty?

Speaker 2 9:11

They started to. So I refed with the guy who was in charge of reffing one game.

Speaker 1 9:16

I love this.

Speaker 2 9:17

Everything went okay. The next game, though, they realized we're not calling anything, and they started playing dirty, so much so that the guy that was in charge of another league came onto the court and started yelling at me, and I was just like, hey, man, this is what I was told. Let's just say, technicals flew in. First and second graders Wow, third. First and second.

Speaker 1 9:50

Okay, okay, I thought you said first, second, third graders.

Speaker 2 9:53

No, I don't think it was third graders. I think it was first and second graders. I think it's third, fourth, so it was first, second graders.

Speaker 1 9:58

Okay.

Speaker 2 9:59

Yeah, so technicals flew. Wow, yeah, good, good history there what came after this?

Speaker 1 10:05

uh, the shack.

Speaker 2 10:07

Um, I think there was some cheesy fouls on vladdy devos, if I remember and I disagree with this one where he dove for the ball and they called it on him because he grabbed the ball. There's a foul before that play that made um. I believe it was robert ori that fell to the ground and he had the ball and v a foul before that play that made um. I believe it was robert that fell to the ground and he had the ball in vade diva's dough for the ball too, and they called it on vade and I was just like that. That one was was bad. That was a bad call. I don't think there was any call for vade. I think it was the foul before that that should have been called. If we're going to call anything, okay, but in reality they were paving the way for Shaq in this game basically To kind of become the next kind of MVP type guy.

Speaker 2 10:50

No, I mean Shaq was already an MVP type player in this game or in this series.

Speaker 2 11:01

I think that they were paving the way for Shaq to not have any competition, so he could just dominate the rest of the game gotcha even, even with Kobe out there even with Kobe out there, because I in reality you had I believe it's his name was Tony Massenburg or something like I believe that was the name um, one of those bench players that just sit there that maybe doesn't play, maybe gets like five minutes, 10 minutes a game, maybe, maybe, and they had to put him on shack to try to stop shack because all their big men were getting fouled out in this game that's insane or getting in foul trouble, and they try to put chris weber on him for a little bit.

Speaker 2 11:38

Chris weber won the bigger big man, but he started getting foul trouble and so they're like we actually need chris weber on the court, so we can't necessarily allow him to continue. At what point?

Speaker 1 11:47

does your? Are you not able to play because all your players are being fouled out?

Speaker 2 11:53

oh, um, you can actually play with one player on the court. That has happened. You can play with Just one. Yeah, you can play with one. You can play with two. You can play with three.

Speaker 1 12:07

That's fantastic.

Speaker 2 12:08

You take a technical and you play After a player fouls out six fouls and you don't have another player to come in off the bench. You take a technical and then continue to play. Interesting.

Speaker 1 12:26

What's the next foul?

Speaker 2 12:30

I think we're just going to go into the Kobe Bryant one. Oh, the punch, the punch.

Speaker 1 12:35

The punch. This dude went super sand.

Speaker 2 12:39

Yeah, I think that would be probably. There's other little fouls in here, but that was definitely the one that's gonna be most memorable in all of this, like I saw rocky and was like, yeah, I'm gonna do that straight up.

Speaker 1 12:54

Just texas dude right, mike bibby mike bibby right across the face. Mike was obviously mad, bloody nose.

Speaker 2 13:02

Yeah yeah, Mike Bibby. He's a great player, too Good player, but it was kind of shocking to see that as a ref. And then just you don't call that.

Speaker 1 13:14

Yeah, it was right, in front of the ref too.

Speaker 2 13:15

There's no way as a ref, there's two refs. I think it was clear as day.

Speaker 1 13:23

Yeah too, there's no way you as refs, like there's two refs. It was clear as day, yeah, that he just and and my mike bibby's on the side, dabbing his face like an old white jersey. You can see from the cameras like there's blood coming away.

Speaker 2 13:32

I I kind of wonder there's there's certain points in basketball where you kind of know like, okay, these refs aren't calling this, let's get dirty you know, yeah, so why didn't Bibby's team? Get dirty, yeah, because they're getting the calls out against them, and so that kind of makes you wonder, okay, what the heck If I'm Bibby I would have. I don't know, I don't know, I don't know.

Speaker 1 14:04

In today's NBA. I don't know, in today's nba. I don't know how that would fly, but we're gonna go to a little classic backseat critics segment here. Oh, what are we gonna go?

Speaker 2 14:11

with if you could replace any player with another player in this game.

Speaker 1 14:15

Yeah, all right am I, you can go, you can go, you can go fictional if you want. You can say like Bugs Bunny for all I care. Okay, we're just opening this up because I don't know my basketball players.

Speaker 2 14:29

I'm going to pull this back just a little bit. I'm going to pull this back just a little bit.

Speaker 1 14:34

I could throw out, like Jordan or LeBron, but obviously everyone knows LeBron's better, so why wouldn't I pick him? Of course, we'd always pick the lebron always pick lebron I.

Speaker 2 14:45

I really want to go back, though, really quick, I'm gonna pull it back a hot second here. Instead of who to replace, who would we replace on the kings so that they would win the game?

Speaker 1 14:56

oh, you know what I had? I had such a great answer for mine and then you just like, nix that, nix that. Okay, because I'll be honest. I was going to say let's replace tim donaghy with my man stevie, because he would see these vows coming and call them.

Speaker 2 15:23

Have you heard? People think that Stevie Wonder is actually not blind.

Speaker 1 15:27

No.

Speaker 2 15:28

There's theories out there about things about it. People are wild, even with Shaq. Shaq's like this guy's not blind, because Shaq got into an elevator one time, didn't say a word or anything. Stevie Wonder just knew it was Shaq and he was just like how does he know? It's me? So, um, so you're saying stevie wonder for?

Speaker 2 15:49

tim, I'm saying stevie wonder because he can make, he can see those calls and he can make those calls a lot better okay, I hmm, if I'm gonna try to replace it with a, just a basketball movie character, that's what I'm gonna try to do, I'm gonna go with. You know, my brain, my brain, keeps going back to jesus shuttleworth, okay, uh, from he got game, okay, and so I'm I'll just go with that. That's fair.

Speaker 1 16:22

Played by ray allen but you said for just the kings, just the kings, what?

Speaker 2 16:30

I'll replace doug christie with who with jesus shuttleworth.

Speaker 1 16:35

I guess the same position oh man, I wish I knew with some basketball players or movies um okay, wait, wait, here's a good question for you.

Speaker 2 16:47

Actually, let's go with this. Ready for this one who will be with foghorn leghorn if you had to choose coaches for each team. Who's coaching? Who's coaching?

Speaker 1 16:57

who's?

Speaker 2 16:57

coaching doesn't even be in. You know what can't be a real coach? It's got to be an actor a movie actor.

Speaker 1 17:04

It's gotta be like a movie actor, wait, wait. So if I say bill murray, or am I saying, like what is his name? Peter vinkman from from ghostbusters? Which one is it, the character or the actor?

Speaker 2 17:17

let's go with the characters. Okay, let's go with the characters. It can't be from a sports movie okay, we're taking out all the sports movie characters.

Speaker 1 17:25

Whoo yep, cool. I got slap shots, the hustler and space jam out of my head, taking all that out. What you got, oh man, um, for the coaches, for the coaches, you know what? Why don't you go first? You're going to put it back on me. I am. I want some time to think about this, okay.

Speaker 2 17:48

I want. I want Vince Vaughn from Running Crashers, no, from the internship. Okay, I want him in there. Owen Wilson will be his assistant coach and he can be a Lakers coach. I'm just going to say that right now. He'll be the Lakers coach, okay. On the other side, who I want is Shrek. Shout out to our next episode and Donkey Shout out to our next episode, don't get shout out to our next episode and let's see, let's see who comes out I'm gonna be honest, shrek, he's fighting dirty, he's fighting dirty, all right, who do you?

Speaker 1 18:32

let's go, uh, let's go um man, you know what I'm going? I'm going Chunk.

Speaker 2 18:46

From the.

Speaker 1 18:46

Goonies no, no, no, I'm going a little bit darker than that. Okay. Anthony Hopkins as Hannibal Lecter Okay.

Speaker 2 18:55

I'm going to really kill the opponent. Yeah, more and.

Speaker 1 18:59

And that is going to be the Lakers. Okay, bloodsuckers, so kind of fits. Who am I going to pick as? What's the other team?

Speaker 2 19:14

Sacramento.

Speaker 1 19:14

Kings, sacramento, sacramento. Okay, my man Bo Rat.

Speaker 2 19:22

Pee-wee Herman, pee-wee Herman for Sacramento Kings.

Speaker 1 19:26

Rest in peace. Yeah. Oh wow, that's a pair up. You're never not going to be entertained, and I don't think either one of them would know how to play basketball. That is the best pick.

Speaker 2 19:38

You know what I think? Fight me on that. Pee-wee Herman would luck his way into it.

Speaker 1 19:44

Based off I think, fight me on that Pee.

Speaker 2 19:46

Wee Herman would luck his way into it Based off his movies he'd luck his way into it.

Speaker 2 19:49

Go har har whatever his voice is, yeah, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra ra. That'd be kind of a fun matchup, I guess. Final thoughts Going back on this game, I don't think it was as poorly reffed as I remember back in the day, because growing up I was rooting for the Lakers, but I do think that it was definitely still a poorly reffed game. I don't think it is as going back. It's not as atrocious. I did like seeing the old basketball game itself. It feels different. It's got a different vibe. It does, it does. It felt more energetic. It was a better atmosphere in my opinion, compared to what you get nowadays, and more competitive. You can see there's a lot more competitiveness in the game.

Speaker 1 20:44

It felt like more drive, like just just in the way they played yeah, there was definitely more.

Speaker 2 20:53

You got more out of it as a viewer, for sure. Yeah, even the commentary, I felt like you got more out of it and because of that, the music dude we didn't even touch the music the music. Have you ever seen that guy like that? Sorry, I had some listeners. Have you seen that guy like in, like he was at a concert one time and he just goes like this, like with his fingers.

Speaker 2 21:16

You can't see, I know, but I'm just like flicking my wrist back forth, right now, right and he's doing that and he goes over to the piano and, like people, start playing it and he goes no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no no no, yeah, it's a guy he does.

Speaker 1 21:29

Oh, it's awesome um music, best of all there's music is whoever wrote that went too hard. There's talks about bringing that back.

Speaker 2 21:38

Good, there's talks about bringing it back, but, um, good, I mean, I I'd give it based off a basketball. Watching a nine a nine, just because it's it gets your blood pumping, um, just, but not from a movie standpoint, from basketball standpoint yeah, uh, so my final thoughts, uh, I, I think this is okay for really any age to watch you should. You should definitely show kids to teach in basketball actually this is what you don't do kids.

Speaker 1 22:08

Um yeah, like I, I don't think there's really any age restrictions that we can put on this. Um, yeah, uh, you can show a child this. You could show a 99. Oh, granted, if a 99 year old basketball fan saw this, they might die.

Speaker 2 22:22

Um just your they might die. It's just your face they might die. Or if you're even more sincere, like you're smiling, they might die. Went away from the sincerity of your face, but it's okay that they're going to die.

Speaker 1 22:43

No, your sincerity about it. So, as a non-basketball watcher, someone who's trying to get into just kind of following this part, I'm going to give it. I'm going to give it an A. I'm going to give it an A. That's a solid score. It was not nearly as egregious as I thought it was going to be.

Speaker 2 23:01

Yeah, going back and looking at it not as much, nearly as egregious as I thought it was going to be.

Speaker 1 23:05

Yeah, Going back and looking at it not as much, the punch, the screen and maybe one other thing were kind of what I could see.

Speaker 2 23:11

The dive on the floor. Yeah, the dive on the floor was bad.

Speaker 1 23:15

There was a lot of questionable calls that I could see argued. Either way, if this is a worst-called game, they're doing a pretty good job at calling games. Yeah, um, granted, what they missed here was was bad. It just wasn't as bad as I thought. Totally entertaining, yeah, totally entertaining. Uh, the players, fantastic fun. Uh, it's from an era from when I was growing up, from when you were growing up, from when you were growing up. Oh, yeah, I watched it live. I remember, yeah, it's super nostalgic, rooting.

Speaker 1 23:49

I don't know it scratched that itch. I don't have a lot of other basketball games to kind of base this off of. I'm going to Nate.

Speaker 2 23:57

Solid score.

Speaker 1 23:57

Yeah, would watch again.

Speaker 2 23:59

Two solid teams.

Speaker 1 24:02

Alright, if you want to find us, if you want to listen to more of our stuff we usually review movies you can listen to our stuff wherever you get podcasts, whether that's Spotify, whether that's no longer Google Music, but it's YouTube Music or Apple Podcasts or Pocket Casts or Pandora. For you, five listeners. We appreciate you. We appreciate you. You can just look us up at the Backseat Critics. We're also on YouTube. No videos there yet, but we're working on it and you know until next time.

Speaker 2 24:42

We out.