It’s Taylor Swift’s Era and we’re just living in it (but do concert films work?)

To any Swifties listening - hello, welcome. To any non-Swifties, please forgive us. We couldn’t resist discussing the music-movie partnership of an era. So this week we take the opportunity to ask the question: do concert films work?

We, of course, dive into Taylor Swift’s Eras Tour  but also compare it with another concert movie that is currently in cinemas: Stop Making Sense, A24’s re-release of the 1984 Talking Heads documentary. We also watched Amazing Grace, the long-lost Sydney Pollack film capturing the recording of Aretha Franklin’s gospel album of the same name.

References
Patrick Willems on Taylor Swift as a director - a must for anyone in the middle of the venn diagram of film and Swift lovers
The origin story of Stop Making Sense by Jonathan Gould for The New Yorker
‘Is the worldwide release of ‘Taylor Swift: The Eras Tour’ a game-changer for distribution?’ by Jeremy Kay for Screen Daily
Q&A with Alan Elliott, the producer who got Amazing Grace finally made
The Story behind Amazing Grace by Jim Farber for The Guardian

Film Pharmacy
Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels (1998) dir. by Guy Ritchie
Bridget Jones Diary (2001) dir. by Sharon Maguire

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Transcript

Lily: 0:00

there is a song for every breakup you've ever had Oh god. Yeah, well that, and that's another thing about the Taylor Swift. film, era's film, is that it's nearly three hours, which is, I Welcome to Groovy Movies. My name is Lily Austin.

James: 0:16

Ah, my name's James Brailsford. Hello.

Lily: 0:18

Hello, and this week we are talking about Taylor Swift's Eros movie, the big cinematic event of the year. Forget Oppenheimer, forget Barbie, forget

James: 0:31

Super Mario Brothers movie

Lily: 0:32

Oh, my God. Yes. Yeah. Brilliant. Cinematic high point. Well, forget all of that because Taylor Swift's Erased Tour has come to a cinema near you, an IMAX theatre, and obviously we are, we're big Swifties at Groovy Movies. We had to talk about it.

James: 0:51

I'm an appreciator, but I wouldn't say I'm someone who knows her work back to front. Like the past, the past year I've had Midnight. It's on quite heavy rotation. I love the

Lily: 1:00

Really? I didn't know that, James.

James: 1:03

Yeah. Well, you know, about a year ago, I'm just like, okay, Taylor's I have, I keep hearing about Taylor Swift. I should listen to some of her music to see if it's my kind of thing. And, uh, I, I found myself listening to Midnight's War and More. I think it's a great album, actually. I think, I think it's probably for somebody who's like not really into Taylor Swift. I'd say maybe start on Midnight's and work backwards. Perhaps it definitely was a good intro for me.

Lily: 1:24

I had no idea. I had no idea. Um, well, yeah, I, uh, I guess, yeah, we should just, like, list our Swift credentials before we get into this, just if I, I'm, I'm, I wouldn't call myself a Swifty. Uh, I don't know all about the Easter eggs and the backstory, and I'm not, I'm not completely across her, like, romantic life as much as, like,

James: 1:45

Got ya.

Lily: 1:46

Um, but I do know, I am familiar with all her albums and I've listened from a fairly young age.

James: 1:55

So would it be right to say that she's very much like the soundtrack to your life, uh, to a certain degree? She's somebody whose songs have been throughout your life the past 10, 15 years?

Lily: 2:04

I would say so. She's definitely the soundtrack to my breakups. I mean, for anyone who's new to Taylor Swift, there is a song for every breakup you've ever had, every romantic drama you've ever had. She has been through it all. So you will be able to find one that fits with, with whatever emotional thing you're going through with a partner.

James: 2:23

I was there going, gosh, this is the ultimate chronicler of being in a monogamous person, trying to get love to work. It's like, it's all there. There's every facet is explored,

Lily: 2:32

Monogamous, but also someone who has, I would argue, has been very lucky in love. Many different relationships.

James: 2:41

guess. Yeah. But the monogamous ideal is each, that one is meant to be it forever now.

Lily: 2:45

Yeah. Yeah.

James: 2:47

I just want, I just wanted to find a it forever now. Although that could mean that all the songs dry up.

Lily: 2:52

Well, no, no, because she, she was her most, I mean, we could get into it. She was her most prolific during her most recent relationship. Like in lockdown, she wrote two albums back to back and she was in quite a happy, stable relationship at that point. So I don't think we ever need to fear that. This is a, her brace, I'm like, don't even say that to me, James. I know you're joking, but I won't, I won't hear of it.

James: 3:14

I don't really know much about Taylor Swift full stop. I knew she's a country music star who's transitioned through a lot of different kind of phases, but I know that she dated Tom Hiddleston once, maybe, I think,

Lily: 3:24

Uh, yeah, I think, but that was like a month or something.

James: 3:28

But that's literally, as far as her personal life and what it relates to her music. I, I know none of any of the backstory, you know. What it did mean for me just as, as an audience member is I, I was just taking pretty much everything on surface value. There are a few songs I was like, oh, she wrote that, you know, I didn't realize, but the majority of them, were pretty brand new to me, which was the same situation for the Talking Heads film, Stop Making Sense. I probably knew as many as Talking Heads songs as I knew Taylor Swift songs going into both of those concerts. So that was interesting.

Lily: 3:55

I had seen the Talking Heads documentary, and Taya Swift was coming out around the same sort of time. So we thought, why not? Do an episode on concert films, cinematic releases of concert movies, because that is an interesting offshoot of your, the general film world. So, we're gonna start with talking about Taylor Swift's Era's movie that we both saw last night. So we both, we've both been hot off the press with it. I just kept, during the film, I just kept thinking about you, James. I don't know, I mean, you made me didn't go see it, but I just imagine you, like, alone, this, man in his forties, sat watching the Taylor Swift Mirrors movie with, like, all these, like, children and teenagers around you.

James: 4:40

It's, it's not, not far from the picture. I even had a little notebook and I was going to take notes, but like, I kind of, I realized it was pitch black and I was just scrolling and I was like, come on, James, like you, you gotta get into it.

Lily: 4:52

I took a few notes as well, yeah, it's important, important research we're doing. Um, yeah, so we're going to be talking about, yeah, the Talking Heads film Stop Making Sense that was re released, um, a few weeks ago, and also Amazing Grace, the film of Aretha Franklin's recording of her album of the same name. Should we guess, just dive straight in and do Taylor? As it were. Hmm.

James: 5:14

Yes. Yes, please. I had a great time at the cinema. I, it was interesting for me because the audience there, it was, I would say it was like a, just over half sold. A half of the seats were full. So it wasn't a sellout, but it was busy. Um, and it was a kind of audience. I was thinking about this just before we recorded the podcast. When's the last time I saw this audience, which was primarily people I would say in their teens, early twenties. Um, yeah. Um, small pockets of guys there as groups, uh, but not many a lot of yeah. Yeah. So like three guys sat together, another three guys set together.

Lily: 5:47

Aww, that's so nice.

James: 5:50

I wouldn't say it was, like, overwhelmingly women, but it was, like, skewed towards younger women, plus their boyfriends, I would say, a lot of, a lot of the guys there I could see were part of a couple, um, but I was thinking, when's the last time I've seen anything remotely like this in a cinema, as far as an audience, I was like, oh, yeah, it was probably when I'd see, like, Avengers Infinity War, the, the end of the ten years of story build up they had, that's the last time I saw this kind of demographic all enjoying a film together,

Lily: 6:14

Why, what's the usual demographic?

James: 6:17

Oh, it depends on the film. I see a lot of different types of films in the cinema where it's busy and it's a predominantly like teens to twenties, female skewing crowd like that I don't often see in the cinema.

Lily: 6:28

Right, so you're saying that this is a demographic that's not being catered to, do you think?

James: 6:33

For sure. Like I say, three years ago, I saw something similar to that at Marvel Films. The last few Marvel Films I've even been brave enough to watch, but nobody's there. They're just fucking ghost town cinemas. It's, it's like... Random groups of people, and it's certainly not packed out like it used to be. So, I did feel like this was an experience for young people. Like maybe we used to get from films 20, 30 years ago, like a communal, shared, something special happening. That was the feel I got. What was it like at your screening?

Lily: 7:02

Well, I mean, you're forgetting Barbie.

James: 7:04

For sure, sure. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm absolutely forgetting Barbie, yeah.

Lily: 7:08

I feel like Barbie, it was like a, it was like an extension of the Barbie demographic, I would say.

James: 7:16

Maybe, yeah, yeah,

Lily: 7:17

And then, and not as nearly, I mean the buzz around that film, the like, the event screening with that was like full on, and it wasn't quite as much as that, and it was, it was similar, it sounds like it was similar to yours, um, it was probably like three quarters full. So like, pretty full, but not packed.

James: 7:37

you went to a more regular screen. Did you go to the imax? I don't think you did.

Lily: 7:40

I went to the IMAX, but it was, yeah, it was an IMAX screening, but it was also, it was, like, really late. It was, like, 9, and the film is nearly 3 hours long. with that insane running time and end time, it was, that was pretty busy, I guess. But yeah, you're right, it was like, it was definitely, there was a bit of buzz around seeing this. And there were people standing up and dancing in the

James: 8:03

We had that

Lily: 8:04

and people singing along.

James: 8:06

once we got to the 1989 era.'cause the whole show is about the different era of our career. Once we got to 1989, immediately, like I. Maybe a quarter of the cinema stood up, maybe not quite that, but yeah, people suddenly, we're getting more vocal. There was lots of applauding between songs

Lily: 8:20

Oh, really?

James: 8:21

in the audience as well as on the sound system.

Lily: 8:24

clapped a bit and whooped a bit, but actually, in general, apart from these few pockets of people who were up and dancing, everyone was just sort of, quite, stayed in their

James: 8:33

we are reserved

Lily: 8:34

Yeah, exactly, I always, I felt, I felt, I've had the same feeling watching the Talking Heads film, like, my god, we're such a repressed people that we all have to, and I mean, I was the same, um, but I want to hear more about your experience as someone who is coming to this not as a, as a Taylor Swift. experts. As a cinematic experience, what did you think of it?

James: 8:55

If you want to see the state of the art in, modern pop music, if you want to hear that, if you want to see state of the art as far as what a stadium tour can achieve and then also how well that can be recorded and presented. It's all state of the art. You know, you're, you're seeing best in class. I mean, the tickets were expensive. Did you pay like 22. 48 for your adult ticket?

Lily: 9:15

paid 26. 50.

James: 9:19

paid a bit more than me, gee whiz. So, yeah, so it's expensive, but you know, I thought, well, you get your money's worth. I was thinking all the different ways that this might appeal to some Taylor Swift fans. If you've already seen the show, I've heard like from reading reviews that it's often hard to make out her vocals because it's kind of swamped by all the people. Then, you know, you're getting like a crystal clear, pristine. Like presentation of this, of the stage, you get to see everything. You're essentially getting the best seat in the house all the time. You, you know, nothing can compare from being in the audience. It's almost like a good advert. Like I was so impressed with, with how it was all stage. You know, I could see the appeal of going to this concert. And if you've been, you get into re experience it, but this time you can hear and see every detail.

Lily: 10:43

Yeah, yeah, you're right. I mean, I read a review which said that it would be a great marketing technique. People will see it and then want to get tickets and it's like, well, all the tickets have already sold out, mate. So there's, there's no chance of that. But as a general, I think for future, tours, it is a good, good marketing so, I have tickets to The UK leg of her tour, of Aira's tour next year, so I will be there, but I was watching it thinking, Oh, I'm actually having initially when I heard about this tour film, I thought I don't really, it'll be like spoilers. Why would I want to see it when I'm going to go see it myself? Actually, this was like the most amazing. Like part of her tour in this huge stadium in Los Angeles. Very different, I'm sure, setting and staging to what there will be in Liverpool. I'm sure Liverpool will be great, but it'll be a different kind of a thing. So, yeah, I think so.

James: 11:36

Oh, right. I imagined that that, that, I imagined that they would define the parameters of their locations that they're going to stage the tour so that at minimum, you know, they can fit in everything they need put on the show

Lily: 11:47

Do you think?

James: 11:47

this is just in

Lily: 11:48

Yeah, maybe you're right. I... Yeah,

James: 11:50

I, I don't go, I don't go to many stadium concerts. That's another thing I was thinking, like, just as a general thing, I don't see much live music. That's, that's just, like, kind of, I think my thing is I go to the cinema quite a bit. So, I'm, it's not something that I'm used to, but, um, yeah, I was just thinking that surely, because you're gonna see, you're gonna see, if that's an advert and you go to Liverpool and it's like Taylor Swift on a cardboard box strumming a guitar, you'd be like, You know what, Taylor? I saw the film. I want the film.

Lily: 12:14

no, I mean, of course, it's not gonna be like a tinier scale, but I just, I don't think that the stadium in Liverpool will be nearly as big.

James: 12:22

Fair, maybe,

Lily: 12:23

been there. I might be wrong. Maybe it just looked massive in the film,

James: 12:27

That's the other thing about filming live concerts. Like, cause I've actually been involved with the filming and the editing. I've actually edited some

Lily: 12:33

I really,

James: 12:34

Yeah. One with REM

Lily: 12:36

Oh,

James: 12:37

uh, so multiple cameras. And the thing is they do look much bigger on camera. I mean, I'm sure it is epic in scale. There's no way around it, but a lot of the wide shots you shoot on wide angle lenses and they have the, uh, the. Property of elongating distances and stretching things out. So yes, it's a stadium concert tour. It's definitely on a big scale, but the way it's shot will also emphasize that scale.

Lily: 12:57

Well, it whetted my appetite. I was, I was like, I can't wait for next, next summer. It's going to be amazing.

James: 13:05

As, as soon as the film started, um, you could tell, like, it was an electric, electricity going through the audience. Everybody was excited to be there. So I picked up on it. I felt excited. It felt like I was watching. I mean, as well, the weight of expectation. This is a pop cultural moment, isn't it? Like, the, the tour has been incredibly successful. This film has broken loads of records as far as pre sales. It's like 150 million in pre sales before anyone even went to see the film.

Lily: 13:29

Yeah, bring it back to Barbie. Beating Barbie already. It's, it's set to be by far the biggest concert film of all time. And it's very interesting, right? Because the, uh, the deal that was brokered for this film to be released was with AMC Entertainment directly. So AMC Entertainment is an American, company that owns cinemas and, yeah. They didn't use any kind of Hollywood distributors as the norm, like a middleman between, yeah, it was. AMC directly negotiating with Taylor Swift, which I mean is an amazing solve for the issue that the writers and actors strike has created because there is of course right now this like gap in cinema and in the cinema calendars from all the films that have been pushed back so it's like an amazing solve for that problem and and Beyonce's Renaissance tour film is has also been brokered between AMC and directly so it's obviously this seems to be an Potentially what's going to continue happening with, at least with the very big artists, apparently, like, for smaller artists who want to do the same thing, like, they wouldn't have the kind of,

James: 14:36

Nah,

Lily: 14:36

uh, yeah, not just clout, but, like, the logistical, like, Expertise to like make it happen, because it's about, apparently there is actually quite a complicated thing to like orchestrate with multiple theatres, not just with AMCs, but, um, they were able to do that and, yeah, it's interesting, it'll be interesting to see how that, I mean, it'll be great for theatres, anything to keep theatres like busy and selling

James: 15:01

Well, that's the thing. I think for AMC, they obviously must have jumped at the chance. It's clearly getting a lot of people to come into the theatre. And of course, theatres don't just make their money off the ticket sales, they take it from all the concessions. So you've got hundreds of people who come to a concert wanting a good time. You know, there was the Taylor Swift branded, um, like, Sylvania popcorn buckets and all that kind of stuff, and drink stuff. So, it's... It was a busy cinema on a Friday night, and that's not a guaranteed thing these days. Sometimes a Friday night at the cinema can just be as quiet as a Wednesday. And I've noticed as well that they're only going to screen the film Friday, Saturday, Sundays to increase the chance of it being like a busy audience to go and see the film. So, you know, it Like, I did think this is a great way of getting younger people, and not only are they coming to see the cinema, they're coming to see it at the IMAX, because that's been heavily promoted as the, like, the definitive way to see it, because of the scale and the sound system. And so, I was thinking, I hope they have a good time with this, and think, oh, you know what, actually, It's quite fun to see a film on this size, this scale, because a lot of the times, if they're not really, if they go see films the past 10 years, they could have been fobbed off with a small screen, bad projection. So I was thinking at least they're getting like a top quality package for their money on a Friday night.

Lily: 16:10

Yes. Yeah, you know what it made me realize though? I really don't like the, uh, the IMAX at the BFI. It's like a horrible, it's, it's, it's such a horrible environment. The seats are so close together. Uh, and it's so, and the, the, the gray of the. Of the seats. The rake, thank you. The rake is so steep that you feel really uncomfortable. Whereas the cinema I was at last night, lots of space. So it felt like, it felt, it just felt way more comfortable. I didn't feel so like, claustrophobic.

James: 16:45

This is the thing with the BFI IMAX. I got to say, let's take the seating out of it and let's just go for picture and sound. The best in the business, just as far as, as far as how big and the quality and the sound system of the BFI IMAX is. It's even Ludwig Gorenson, who's the composer of the last few Nolan films, says it's the best sounding IMAX he's ever been to. And I have to agree because it's a custom built auditorium. So they've tuned that. But the seating is appalling. It's really, really,

Lily: 17:10

I hate being

James: 17:11

Big, big, big, because, uh, IMAX when it was originally created, it wasn't meant for features. It was meant for 20 minute documentaries. So you get your school kids in, you get your tourists in, you pack them in for 20 minutes. You can bear that seating. Uh, the, the raking means that everyone gets a very clear view, but this, the amount of spit, like it is unpleasant. And that's why for Oppenheimer, seats that were right on the edge so we could nip out, stretch your legs. Like it's, it's uncomfortable for a two and a half, three hour film. Um, so I, I totally appreciate that. We're going to see gravity, which at least is 90 minutes delay. So we'll be in and out before your knees give in.

Lily: 17:46

Oh god. Yeah, well that, and that's another thing about the Taylor Swift. film, era's film, is that it's nearly three hours, which is, I think that's too long. And I say that as someone who knows all of her songs, loves them all. So I was invested in these performances, but they could have cut it down a little bit more, I think. I don't, I don't think we needed that much. It's a lot of

James: 18:11

agree. I agree. Like, like, um, watching all these films, I've watched three now in the space of a week. And you know, the one thing that is missing from the cinematic experience is like a story narrative. And I think three hours is a long time. Like each song in Taylor Swift's oeuvre is a little mini story. They're very cinematic.

Lily: 18:29

And she's very like camp performance doing hand gestures to match with her lyrics.

James: 18:35

It's all, it's, it's, it's all, it's all good stuff, but, but, like, for three hours a year, I think I'm craving a bit more, a bit more, basically, from, from being sat in the cinema.

Lily: 18:43

Yeah, and I mean, we'll talk about it more as we talk about these other films. But to be honest, I, I was thinking I could not be an objective judge of a concert film when it's Taylor Swift, because I'm so in invested in the music. But, I really, my feeling having watched these, all these films in the last couple of weeks is that I'm happy for them to be there if it gets people into the theatre, into the cinemas, that's great. But I don't think concerts are made to be shown in a cinema. I enjoyed watching it, partly buoyed by the knowledge that I would myself be there in the audience in six months time. Woohoo. Um, but. Watching a concert from a seat in a cinema, all I feel is, I wish I was there. I feel this, like, real disconnect. And you're right, without any kind of narrative arc taking you on the journey, at least for Taylor Swift, I actually thought, what helped is, you're right, the songs themselves are quite, um, narrative, but also having, seeing the audience quite a lot, you know, the way it was filmed with lots of footage of the, of people dancing and that sweet little girl that she gave a hat to at one point. That like adds an element of this, like, there is a narrative of her experiencing this performance with her fans and them connecting and vice versa. So that, that gave it something. But when I was watching Stop Making Sense. I found it very hard to, remain engaged because you're just, you're sat with this really obvious disconnect between you and the actual performance that is there, you know, a live music performance is there to be enjoyed in person, to be experienced, and it's quite hard to do that when the, when you are so aware of the, of the screen between

James: 20:34

Yeah, Yeah. I agree with you. Like there's nothing quite the same as being physically surrounded by 70, 000 of the fans in the middle of it, but this is a good. I mean, you know, the thing is I paid 23 quid for the ticket, which is expensive for cinema, but cheap for if you were paying for a concert ticket, I think, I also think felt like that's a good value proposition, like here's the closest you can get to seeing her live, but it's not the same as live and for that amount of money, like, you know, it's, you know, I wasn't all the reservations I might've had about the other two films we're going to discuss to do with the quality, the way it was filmed, that all addressed here, you know, it's, it's, it's, yeah. Perfectly finessed. It looks amazing in the 4k on a big screen. It's, it's very immersive. It's still not going to get you the same experience as being there, but this is, this is good for if you, you know, you, you haven't got a ticket or you just want to experience it, it's a good middle

Lily: 21:22

Yeah, and seeing an artist in like a huge stadium concert is like, you know, my least favorite environment really for seeing live music. And for a lot of people, it'd be way too much and they couldn't handle it. So it's, it's great to have the option of being able to see it without that kind of intense environment.

James: 21:39

honest with you, I was thinking, I think, I've never been to a big stadium concert ever, full stop, just in my life, and I just, and I think perhaps it's because I think it might be a bit overwhelming for me, so I love to see, you know, this to me was like, oh great, I get a bit of that vibe, but then I can go and have a break, the only downside was I had a few little breaks just to kind of give myself a few minutes out of the theatre, and the thing is the cinema was also pumping Taylor Swift songs all around the

Lily: 22:02

Yeah, they weren't mine as well. I guess that was part of the deal, maybe.

James: 22:06

Yeah, you know, it gets you in the zone, but I was like, I just want a minute, just a minute.

Lily: 22:11

So you actually went out for a second just to...

James: 22:13

Just, just to refresh my head. I mean, it's a long ass time to be there, you know,

Lily: 22:18

It's so, yeah, it's so long. Um, so yeah, I'm a, I'm a big Taylor Swift fan, musically speaking, lyrically, really connect with her, but there are certain things that I, like, for me, um, an issue was the styling.

James: 22:36

Oh, talk me through this.

Lily: 22:37

the costumes were sort of, for the most part, really bad, really bad, but that's part of Hair, Swiss brand. She's known for not, for not being a stylish person.

James: 22:47

right. You thought that I, I didn't, I, I thought they all looked fine, but, but really bad in what way? Drill down more in that. What made them bad?

Lily: 22:55

and just that they were objectively bad. Really. It's hard to say. I mean that See

James: 23:03

Ouch.

Lily: 23:04

see look, uh, sequins, uh, and jewels and sparkly things are like part and parcel with a concert. That I get, um, but there was just like, I mean, I don't know, I'd need to go through each outfit and explain to you in during, during, during, uh, evermore, she wears this, this yellowy, um, more kind of boho kind of long dress. And I just felt like it was so. average. The color didn't really suit her and it was so, I could have found her a nicer dress if I'd have just popped into, you know, Free People myself. So that was just, it didn't have the like, It wasn't special enough for a concert performance. And then there was this horrific dress during the Speak Now era. Thank God they only showed one song for that era because she was wearing this dress with this huge, it was kind of Victorian esque, huge bustle at the back. And honestly, she reminded me of the termites and ants in that outfit. Or like a snail or something, like it was such a bizarre

James: 24:11

can't remember that one. That, that era must have slipped me

Lily: 24:14

Yeah, it was like a big purple dress. I just, it was just like, Not, not nice, not nice. And like, there was quite a few moments where because she wanted to do a costume change, she had something else on over the top. And like, often that thing over the top just didn't look that great. Like, she had this purple thing on at one point over, what she looked great in was like the sequin bodysuits. And I loved her snake, the Reputation Era snake. One leg catsuit was fantastic. So she's good. She, the catsuits and all those fitted things look really great, but the rest, the baggy t shirt at one point, she had this like slogan t shirts, Oh, get rid of it, get it out of here, but the boot, she, she looked great in the boots, the boots she started in. I was like, I can tell you're really feeling yourself in those Louboutins. And I'm like, great, good for you. Um, so yeah, that was, that was my main struggle during the, the show actually.

James: 25:14

There's two thoughts I have in thinking about that, which I was contemplating during the show. The first one, which I don't think addresses what you're saying, but it's related. So I'll get it out of the way first, which is the thing about translating stage plays and stage like live music performances. They were never meant to be viewed that close up. You know, the cameras, you are getting a viewpoint as a audience member of this film that

Lily: 25:36

Such a good point, yeah.

James: 25:38

They were never designed to be scrutinized that close up. So, for example, the I mean, it was all top notch, I have to say, even even saying that, it all pretty much held up. But perhaps there's an element of the the the costume design has to punch through at a stadium level, perhaps. But then there's a there's a second thing, which I think more is more is perhaps Addressing your point is, like, I was watching thinking, oh gosh, this is Taylor Swift's style. She's got this ability to feel very relatable and like, oh yeah, we'd get on if we met, but also being a massive superstar. So maybe there's an element to the clothes not being the most perfect mind blowing that it helps with this relatability, perhaps.

Lily: 26:16

I think, I mean I was talking about this with my sister last night when we were coming back from the film, is that Taylor Swift, her success is in part because she is an incredible songwriter, but her songwriting, the lyrics are incredibly relatable and often quite pedestrian in a way. I do think she's an incredible, like, musician and songwriter, but she has that and that, that works very well with her, her look. She's very beautiful, but in this way that is quite girl next door and it feels not like I've, I, you know, you compare her to say Beyonce. Beyonce's brand is like goddess, super, superstar. Um, we, you know, she's someone you look up to, whereas Taylor feels, and it, and that, and it works, again, that works for her because her voice is like that, you know, Beyonce has this incredible, powerful, amazing voice, and Taylor Swift, she has this beautiful and very strong voice, actually, she's a very good singer, but there's something about her which sounds quite normal, again, and like, and relatable, and like, you, you always think you could sing, like, as well as she does.

James: 27:26

Oh, absolutely. Part of me thought as well, is this like the ultimate fantasy when you're a kid? Is that I want to be a famous pop star and I want to sing my songs and you practice in the mirror. And this is almost like the ultimate realization of that fantasy. That here's somebody who you can almost imagine. You might, you might be on your level to some degree, even though I'm sure in reality. But, but like, but that thought was going through my head all the way through it. I thought this is, that's, that's a genius move to pull off to be both the biggest star on the planet, but also seem very relatable.

Lily: 27:56

Yeah, and I feel like that, it's, that's why her brand has been so successful, because all of that, that, I think that is genuinely who she is, but it also fits with every other element of her, you know, that all of that is completely consistent, and you're right, part of that is her wardrobe, which is... quite normal. And also another part of that is her dancing. You know, she is not a good dancer. She's quite a clumsy, awkward dancer. And I feel like in this tour, she really, really owns that and leans into that and goes for that. And that's part of it. And that again, it kind of all feeds into the same kind of relatable brand that, that has at moments been a bit rocky, but, but we've landed at a point where everyone is kind of on board with it, you know,

James: 28:41

Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, I could, I could see that, you know, she didn't lean too heavily to dancing, but the dancing, which was there, I enjoyed it. It wasn't like, I wasn't, I wasn't brought out of the experience to think, God, Taylor. So, you know, it was, it was good enough. I, I also noticed just the way it was directed. This film, it's all about Taylor. Like, like, the camera doesn't really leave her. You know, she's the center of it. Which, again, if you go to a Taylor Swift concert, I get it. But compared to the other films that we watched, there was at least some appreciation of the other people. Other, other people in the, in the, in the stage show get close ups and that kind of whereas, it's very much, it's, it's Taylor focused in this film.

Lily: 29:17

I feel like I saw a bit of her, her backing people and

James: 29:20

sure, for sure, but, but, but we rarely, we rarely go with them. We, back in People, they're fine and they're in shot, but they're all orbiting around Taylor.

Lily: 29:29

Yeah, but I think that's correct, right? Like,

James: 29:32

yeah, I'm saying it, it's not, it's not a criticism. I'm just saying it was noticeable compared to the other two that we are, we are very much all orbiting around Taylor Swift. And you know, if I've paid my 20 bucks, then sure, that's what I want. Yeah, I thought that going

Lily: 29:44

about the direction, so it was directed by Sam Wrench, who is actually a British director, who's done a lot of these kinds of concert films. That's kind of his thing. I had, I had made the assumption that I thought perhaps Taylor might have herself directed it because she is making a foray into directing. But you know what, I thought, as soon as the film starts I thought, oh no, I see, why not, because this is... The skill involved in creating a concert film is very, very different. This quality is very different to what I, I see for her future. Cause you know, she's done a bit of directing of her own films. She did the All Too Much video. And I think that's the kind of, that kind of indie looking lo fi film is probably. I could see that's where she's going, I say that, but the rumor is that she's going to make a film about, based on the songs she did, The Last Great American Dynasty, you know that, the song that was based on the life of Rebecca Harkness, the socialite, and it's an absolute banger, and she kind of, towards the end, compares herself with this woman. There are some like, you know, uh, commonalities between them of being judged because they're basically women having a good time doing what they want, but there are rumours that the first film she'll direct will be about Rebecca Harkness and the story.

James: 31:01

Oh yeah, and I expect it will get a big IMAX release, even if it does become a smaller, uh, Personal drama. We'll still see it out on IMAX. We'll see it on the premium screens because she's an artist who not only has a huge fan base, but a fan base who are willing to pay for it. So we, we, you know, we will be getting Taylor Swift, the IMAX cinematic experience for a drama debut. That's my prediction.

Lily: 31:22

Bring it on. Bring it

James: 31:24

I mean, because the thing is, yeah, I thought maybe she directed this, but the thing is, I did work for a production company where, um, the director of the company, his, his, um, specialism was directing live music, and it's a completely different skill from any other kind of directing. Nightmarish. You've got to be so across every single camera and where it's got to be repositioned to get the next shot, you know, and you don't notice all that stuff, but that's happening in real time because they had three different performances to choose from. Um. When they filmed Eras, you know, it was three night consecutive nights in the LA, um, stadium. So they could pick things up and stitch them together, but it's just so, it's, it's such a skill. I mean, it's seamless and slick. This is like, while it doesn't quite have the kind of handcrafted feel of the other two that has a bit more personality of the director. This is just a slick, you know, this is how the. The very best concert videos are directed. Don't expect anything beyond it looking incredible, but that's kind of all you really need from this kind of film.

Lily: 32:24

But that's a perfect segue into our next film. Talking about how complicated it is and how the technique, the skill needed to direct something like this. Because our next film is Amazing Grace, directed by Sidney Pollock.

James: 32:41

Which, which was a surprise to me when the film started. Like, oh my god!

Lily: 32:45

Yes, tell us who Sidney Pollock is, James.

James: 32:48

Well, Sidney Pollock's like, he's, he's slightly underappreciated, he never really broke out as somebody who was a name that could market a film like Spielberg and Nolan. But, but he's somebody who, when he, when you watch one of his films, you can see it's made by someone who loves the craft. He did Out of Africa. He did The Firm with Tom Cruise. I think Tootsie is possibly his best known film, The Comedy, uh, with, um, Dustin Hoffman. So, he,

Lily: 33:14

Love that film, though it hasn't aged very well.

James: 33:16

he's a generalist filmmaker. He could turn his hand to anything. So I was surprised when I saw his name on this Aretha Franklin documentary, because watching the film unfold, you can see that it was thrown together at last minute. It's very, a ramshackle. It does feel like nobody had a heads up about this and that they were like, shit, who can we get to direct it? We need somebody good. Uh, let's draft in Sidney Pollack. That, that was

Lily: 33:41

they, They had a different director, actually, who had done these sorts of, uh, films before. Um, but then Sidney Pollock, he had just made, uh, They Shoot Horses, Don't They? Which I haven't actually seen. It's on my list. It sounds like the most amazing story, apparently. It's about, um, a dance competition where you have to dance until you drop, basically, and the last person standing who's still alive wins.

James: 34:08

Right.

Lily: 34:09

it's incredible, but it's on my to watch list, I haven't actually seen it, but anyway, that film was like, had so much buzz around it, it was a huge hit, and so, off the back of that, Sidney Pollock's name was thrown into the ring, and they wanted a big name to, to make it, so he came on board, having never done this kind of film before, and, and did not bring any, basically any technical expertise to this, he didn't, basically he just didn't use clapper boards for each of the recordings, and they kept Stopping and then starting again, recording multiple cameras,

James: 34:37

I don't want to get too much into the technical detail, but the main thing was they just kept stopping and starting the film cameras and with no way to synchronize that to the music that was being recorded. And the, the, the point to make very clear is. Film cameras do not record audio to them. So they had mute clips and they had apparently thousands of individual clips because the cameraman was just starting and stopping recording, um, at random points. So then you have to, if it's somebody just playing the keyboard of a piano, which part of the song are they playing? Apparently when they first tried to go into the edit with it back in the seventies, they hired a lip reader to try and figure out what part of the songs they were singing, because they were, they were basically. So, with the technology of the 70s, even the 80s, there's no way they could have done it. I think they managed to get 20 minutes of material cut together. And that was over months and using this, uh, lip, lip reader.

Lily: 35:30

I feel like I should actually circle back just to, uh, to contextualize the film itself. So Aretha Franklin, she, uh, she organized to record her album, Amazing Grace, a gospel album, I believe her first and maybe only gospel album. She, um, she decides to record it at the New Temple Missionary Baptist Church. in Los Angeles in 1972 and so, yeah, it was kind of an additional thing that they decided to film her recording, so, it's an amazing, it's an amazing thing to watch because it's actually, it's like the complete opposite of Taylor Swift's concert video in that it's actually not really a concert at all, it's a taping of an album, so it's, she's not performing in the way she would if she'd been doing a live show, it's a different

James: 36:16

no, there's no, set, there's no set pieces. There's no costume changes apart from the costumes jump because they record it over different nights. But,

Lily: 36:23

yeah, yeah. yeah.

James: 36:25

It's the absolute opposite. This is just bare bones it gets. In a church, it's not being custom designed for shooting. And, you know, you can see cameramen on ladders. And the lighting isn't great because it's a church. You know, it's not a film set and it hasn't been designed for this. So, the image is a bit grungy and grainy. And, you know, Aretha Franklin essentially suppressed the film during her lifestyle. Because, lifetime, because she wasn't happy with it. And, uh, I can understand why. It's the

Lily: 36:50

Well, it was only it. It wasn't so much that she suppressed it. Right. It was that it was just at the end of her life when, when finally Alan Elliot was trying to get it out there. Her family said that she wasn't very well, and if they, I mean, who knows? I, I did feel a bit like odd about reading that.

James: 37:07

I watched a documentary, which, not a documentary, I watched a news broadcast, which had some of her living relatives, and they were saying they just weren't happy, she just didn't seem happy with it, uh, because she, uh, and they said they are interpolating here, so this is not like the definitive word for it, but her relation was saying she felt that the record company brought their A game to recording it, she just felt let down by the film company not bringing their A game.

Lily: 37:30

right.

James: 37:31

And I can see that in the finished film, like, you've made this beautiful, uh, album of gospel music, but the film isn't this similarly beautiful confection, you know, it's a bit rough and ready.

Lily: 37:43

I love it for that. I preferred it to Taylor's, if I'm honest, and I'm a mega Taylor fan, but like, seeing,

James: 37:51

more soul, it's got more charm, and it feels very, very raw.

Lily: 37:56

It's just amazing to see, because there's nothing else to it, really. Well, there's a lot to it, actually. Yeah, okay, the footage might be a bit rough and ready, but what you have is, Aretha Franklin's incredible voice and she's only 29 in this film. It's amazing to see her pretty young and, and seeing her in the environment of a church where this is obviously, you know, she's clearly a very religious person. She's, she's there not performing, but just. In the music, it seems to be, for her, like a religious, as you would imagine, being in a church, but a religious experience. That is, like, very moving to see. But around her, she is backed by this choir who sing amazingly. And they, they react as the audience do. They all react to her. They can't help but react to her. And I don't know, there's something, at first, when she walks in, she seems quite humble. And then you kind of, at least for me, I was like, oh, it's not so much that she's being modest. It's just that. This isn't a performance in that sense. She's not going to perform for the audience.

James: 38:59

Yeah.

Lily: 39:00

She, they're there to give something to the recording, but she is there to just make sure she, she's performs these songs the best she can. And I think also just like be in that moment of this, like, you know, this is gospel music. This is like a spiritual experience. So, yeah, I feel like It was, it being, I think that quality adds to it, but you're right, I can, I can see why, because she, I'm sure as a perfectionist, she would have done everything to make sure she sang to her absolute top, and yeah, you're right, the footage really, I can see why she wouldn't be happy with it, even though I like it for that.

James: 39:38

That does work in its favor as far as a document now of the time, because it feels very documentary style, you feel right in it, it's all very rough and ready, you know, it's unrehearsed basically, whereas Taylor Swift's concert, it's rehearsed down to the nth degree, you know, you know that Every night she steps on the same places, you know, because I was watching, I was watching some of the shots in Taylor Swift and there's like the camera sometimes circles round her right on stage that we cut to a wide shot, but we don't see any cameraman and like, okay, cause they were shot on two separate nights and the wide shots from one performance and the, uh, steadicam stuff that's right next to is from a different one, but they're so immaculately choreographed that, you know, you don't even notice,

Lily: 40:17

But I thought, James, I had the exact same thought at one point where she's looking at the camera and then it cuts away. And I think that pulling you out, actually, even though it's seamless, you're aware, we're so aware of these things now, whereas, yeah, with, with Amazing Grace, you are also aware of the cameramen because you can literally see some of them in the footage,

James: 40:35

ha ha Like, and there's, there's, there's one bit where you can see Sidney Pollack In the

Lily: 40:39

I

James: 40:39

a camera, with a camera on his shoulder And what they call a battery belt strapped round his waist Looks a bit like a Han Solo gun buckle thing And he's there, and he's right next to the, choir basically And he's, he's trying to get a shot, and he's angling in Like, oh my god, he's knackering this shot because you can see him, but then it finally cuts to the shot he's got. And it's the conductor like really enthusiastically pushing his hands out and like, okay, it was worth it, Sidney, you got the shot.

Lily: 41:03

I see. I love that. I

James: 41:05

Yeah, it's the definitive. It's that run and gun. It's the definitive of that kind of like just essentially they clearly got thrown in at the last minute with no resources, no time like fuck it. Let's just see what we can get. And this is the result. It took nearly 20, 30 years before the technology of using computer editing systems where they could sort out all of these issues that up until the advent of computers, there was just no way they could have got the film made.

Lily: 41:29

Yeah. So, this guy, Alan Elliot, he is credited as realized and produced by Alan Elliot in the, in the credits I think he worked at Warner Brothers Where the footage had basically been shelved for, as you said, like 30 years. I think this was back in 2007. He, he got wind of this and was a big Aretha Franklin fan. So managed to buy the, the footage and put in a load of time with these editors, like getting it all synchronized and put together and cutting a few bits

James: 42:00

of work. I mean, just, just from what I know of making these kind of things, music, concert things. That's a lot of work. Even now with computers, it's thankless. It's a thankless grind, but I mean, I'm glad they did it because you wouldn't notice watching the finished

Lily: 42:14

No, yeah, you would never, you would never know and it does add a kind of, oof, like, like, oh, we finally get to see it. Yeah, I think for anyone who was a fan of this album, and it was a huge, this album was huge, you know, it was a huge, a big selling album, the biggest selling gospel album of all time. Um, but in 2011 he that it was stated to be released and and at that point Aretha Franklin sued for an appropriation of her likeness without permission and then he tried again in 2015 she sued him again and then after her death in 2018 her family made a deal with him and it was finally released in 2019 worldwide so

James: 42:56

Not, not, not really respecting Aretha's wishes,

Lily: 42:59

I mean, the, the, the family was like, very, like, adamant that if, yeah, okay, I didn't hear this, but this, I didn't see this interview that you spoke about James, the interview I read, they were like, she wasn't well, if she'd have been well, she would have wanted it. It's doesn't make her look bad. It's the main. And it's true. It doesn't make her look bad. She looks incredible. It's just so. amazing seeing her perform like that. And I love her dad. There's a scene where it's like, towards the end of the film, her dad, who is also a reverend, he gives a, a little, I mean, you would say a sermon, but it's really just a speech talking about Every Franklin's talent and her place within the like the church community and it's like really moving and like sweet to see and so you, I, it is a very like favorable representation, I would say, but it is a little bit uncomfortable knowing that she herself, like, really battled to not have it released.

James: 44:00

really battled, like, like, multiple

Lily: 44:02

Yeah.

James: 44:03

does seem like she really didn't want that film coming out. And I agree, it certainly doesn't do any damage to her legacy. If anything, it just, it makes you appreciate her talent and her charisma even more.

Lily: 44:13

It doesn't feel like a performance, like everything feels very spontaneous and alive, you know, like when you're in a concert, there is this set way everyone behaves. We all dance in our own way, but there's like, there are rules of engagement, whereas in this environment, it felt like Because it was a slightly more unusual thing, right?

James: 44:33

The, absolutely. There's a texture,

Lily: 44:34

Yeah,

James: 44:35

a documentary texture that you really do feel in the moment, in a way that you, you were definitely in the moment with eras to her, but you, it's a synthetic moment. It's perfected with an and rehearsed with an inch of its life. Here. This is documentary. This, this is the real deal. You know, this is the, it couldn't be more polar opposite to the Taylor Swift film. Uh, but still an incredible experience, just, just the opposite end, and I would say somewhere in the, in betwixt the two of these, lies our third film, Stop Making Sense.

Lily: 45:05

Absolutely, yeah. So Stop Making Sense, it came out in 1984 originally. This, uh, concert film of the Talking Heads tour, directed by Jonathan Demme. But it was re released this year, I think because it's the 40th anniversary. Uh, and so it was re released in 4K.

James: 45:26

I have to say, this one, as far as just how much I got into the songs, this was my favorite. Just, I, I, I didn't know all of their work, but I thought it was perfectly sequenced. There was stagecraft. It was just on the very, I would say, the, the bottom level of like the amount of technicality and the amount of money that was spent on it.

Lily: 45:45

I don't think the bottom level,

James: 45:47

Okay,

Lily: 45:48

was more than the bottom.'cause that, I mean, the whole thing was fucking heads. Right. It's a little bit more like, Artie and Slipback and it looks a little bit more like handmade and artsy, but actually as the show goes on, it becomes more and more of a, like, that's the whole point, right? They start with nothing on stage and it's just, um, David Byrne with a boombox. And then we like build up to this like more complex staging. So it wasn't like the bottom level, you know.

James: 46:15

sorry, I'd like to officially take that back, I was just being a little bit,

Lily: 46:19

Compared to Taylor, it's, yeah, it's pretty,

James: 46:21

sorry, yes, it's, yeah, it's, look, there we go, I mean, and I think, to be honest, these kind of performances, you know, these walked so that Taylor could run, I think there's an element of like, these, Both how you stage, um, a show and also technically how you achieve it. I think, I think this was a precursor as far as, you know, there's lots of different themes throughout the show. Each, most songs have a different setup for how it's arranged. I mean, I loved the idea of each, uh, song introducing a new member of the band one by one. So we start with David Byrne, then we have the bassist join in. And I was like, oh, this is a great way of just like almost easing you into the concert. Rather than starting really big, you build up to something.

Lily: 47:01

Jonathan Demme's, Concept for the film was simply he pitched this idea that rather than it being like a music video of lots of, lots of cuts, lots of takes, a lot of energy and, and also and with like behind the scenes footage or documentary, you know, interviews with the With the band, which was like quite common for film, music films at that time. It was, no, no, we're just going to make it about the performance and just be there in the performance. Um, so you could argue that it's a pre cut. If it wasn't for this, maybe we wouldn't have even got to Taylor Swift's era's film. Uh, I don't love, I have to say, I, I love talking heads. I'm a big fan of them. Not as big a fan Swed, I'd admit. I, I didn't know. I didn't know every single song, but I, I knew like half of them. Right. I knew the big ones. Uh,

James: 47:52

I knew the big ones. That was

Lily: 47:54

yeah. And I, and I, David Burners. Like this amazing, like, charisma. He's very sexy in this, like, weird, awkward, odd man kind of a way. So, so, so that was all cool, but, uh, I really, when I was watching it, I felt, again, this, like, real disconnect. Like, it's only an hour and a half, and yet... In the middle point, it kind of reminded me of being at Glastonbury, and you're seeing a band that's like, not your favorite band, but your friend really likes them, so you're like, yeah, yeah, I'll go along, I knew a few of their songs, and, and you love the first song, but then you start to like, lose your way in the middle, your legs are getting a bit tired, you're thinking about who you want to see next, and then you're like, brought back for like the final 20 minutes, and you're into it, but you're also thinking, oh good, we've probably got only like one or two songs left, and I kind of, I kind of felt that when I was sat there, it was like, as much as I like talking heads, and I wish I was at this concert, this looks like an amazing concert to be a part of, just being sat here, watching it, it's like, again, this like, I'm really feeling the gap between the experience of actually being there, and seeing a film in the cinema, which is obviously like one of my favourite things to do,

James: 49:00

Yeah. No, I, I completely agree with you. I love your, uh, your discussing it in terms of going to see a band at Glasbury. That, that's mostly my experience of going to see band bands at music festivals. What I liked about, uh, going to see it in the cinema was it was very easy for me to just have a few minutes break if, because I, like, in the middle section, I just went out and, you know, had a few minutes and then just popped back in. And you can't do that when you're in the middle of 40, 000 people in a field at Glastonbury. So I, I appreciated the disconnect. I took it, I saw it as a positive and, uh, like, and, and I did like how kind of surrealistic and slightly odd the performances were. And I, I felt it was, it was a good representation of, What it must have been like to have been there. A bit like with Eras, it's like, it's probably as close as we're going to get, but it's still got that disconnect. I have to say as well, I really loved the, uh, the, the, the music, the remix of the music, like it sounds astonishing, they've clearly gone back in and done a lot of work to, to the multitracks, it was a very good, like just for the audio, for me, I've thought it was very good.

Lily: 49:59

Well, yeah, it was so good that I was like, at what some certain points convinced that they just stuck the recorded album over the top.

James: 50:07

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I do think there were things like, I think they've done overdubs afterwards, and I think the same possibly with Taylor Swift. I do think they've, they went into the studio and added a few overdubs to help them out here and there. But, you know, mostly it's, it's a live performance, I

Lily: 50:21

Yeah, the other thing with it was the, uh, big suit David Byrne wears for a few of the songs towards the end. That was quite a famous thing. And I, the thing with that, right, I was like, oh, it's so avant garde, that's cool, when he first came out of it, but then in the second song, when he takes off his blazer, and it's just the shirt and trousers, this massive shirt and trousers, and he's dancing, it was even more like Fat Monica and Friends, you know, I was like, I don't know if this, it looks like, more like problematic than surreal, so, I wasn't totally convinced about that either, I wasn't sure if it had aged perfectly

James: 51:00

how's, how's his trousers staying up? That's what I thought. Cause it's clearly must have some kind of padding that cause, cause they don't, they don't fit to his waist to, to make the scale of the large suit work there. There are

Lily: 51:11

Yeah, no, I think it was a been some kind of suit underneath, I'm guessing, with like, um, suspenders, perhaps. sure.

James: 51:20

So, so as far as rating the styling of, of, of, uh, Stop Making Sense, would you Mmm.

Lily: 51:25

Oh. Yeah, yeah, I love the styling. I love the styling because they were all pretty much most of the band members were in some kind of gray jersey throughout, which very much was in keeping with the style that we've talked about this film and the whole concert as well. It's like paired dance, uh, Strip back, that's the word I'm looking for, yeah, strip back. So it, it, it suits with that. I mean, I was thinking, God, if they're getting hot, I'd be very self conscious about lifting up my arms in those grey jersey tops and stuff. But, yeah, I mean, just as with Taylor, her, like, slightly badly styled costumes fit her brand. And the, and they, they are, like, big and spectacle and glittery, just like the show, like. It, similarly with this, the styling worked very well with Talking Heads whole brand.

James: 52:12

This film out of the three we've seen was the sweet spot between being a little bit ramshackle and rough around the edges, but also being, intentional, you know, there was a lot of thought that went into it. You know, you can see that it was interesting and another, another director not really known for his live music stuff. Um, this clearly had much more thought and planning to how it was technically put together, but yeah, the director of Silence of the Lambs doing a concert video, who'd have

Lily: 52:35

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, because Hugh was a big Talking Heads fan. He went to see them live, thought they were amazing. I think then saw them again a couple years later and at that point pitched to them to, to make this film. And they were already fans of his. They were like, sure, let's do it. Why not? I don't know. I think, as I said, like, pfft. It wasn't totally engaging for me, and I'm glad I saw it in the cinema to, to know. But I think, I just kept thinking when I was watching, I would like to have this. at home on a screen while I'm making dinner or in the background when I have friends over on a projector or something that that's ideal like it's it's because it was a really great restoration and it was like I spoke to this girl after the and at the cinema after it and she was like a massive fan she'd watched it many times on YouTube so for her she was like so happy to have been able to finally see it on like a proper screen and she was like seeing their faces clearly rather than you know later on YouTube was like amazing so It is, yeah, it's worth seeing if you're a fan but I don't, I really don't think concert films, I just don't think they're made for the cinema. It's not the right environment for me.

James: 53:42

I see where you could... I, I kind of agree with you. I mean, like, there's certainly not the thing that I prefer to see at the cinema more. I prefer to see films. But for me, it was like the fact that I could easily just go out and have a break and have snacks and just break it up. I see what you're saying. Although maybe it's more suited to be more like how you traditionally listen to music where it's more a background thing. So it's not the primary focus is what you're suggesting.

Lily: 54:03

I just, I was just longing to be there and so, and then I was getting a bit bored. You know what, you know what I kept thinking about? Was Katy Perry part of me? Have you seen that documentary? Now that is the sweet spot of film and concert. Documentaries, because you see a lot of her performances of her tour at the time, but it is also a more traditional like music artist documentary where we follow her on her tour, we see her backstage, we get a bit of her backstory of her life, how she got to this point, but all of that means that when you, because of the way it was like put together and, and seeing this like personal insight into her and what's happening on the tour, you get so invested in her, yeah. Life and her story that then when you see these songs, which, you know, I don't think they're nearly as personal as Taylor's, you know, she doesn't write her own music, but even so the way that it's added together when you see those performances. It's like, you're more, they mean more to you and you're more moved by those, by the show because you, you know about what's been going on backstage. You know she's just had a text from Boo Russell Brown telling her it's over. There's so much, it brings so much to it. So that film, I absolutely loved and I was engaged the whole way through. So I think, I think there's, I know that Jonathan, Jonathan Demme was making A Virtue and Stop Talking Extensive. And that's just focused on the performance, all about the performance. But for me, actually. I need that human backstory element if I'm going to sit for an hour and a half without actually being in the concert, you know. Because, because we are so repressed. Like if everyone had, I saw footage of people watching Stop Making Sense in LA and like gelling up and everyone dancing, but in the UK we're all too staid to do that. Everyone just stayed in their seats and occasionally went, Woo! Yeah! So. Yeah,

James: 55:50

Oh, that was, that was more than mine. This was a very respectful sat in their seats. Yeah. Um, but yeah, all, all three films, yeah, they were pure concert videos. None of them, I was, I, in my head, thought that Stop Making Sense would have more behind the scenes, more

Lily: 56:03

that's what I was expecting, but no.

James: 56:05

and so yeah, so maybe there is a thing for both of us that just a little bit more of that narrative, so it's like it wouldn't have broken me out of anything to see backstage stuff, you know, but I guess that's a different type of live music film.

Lily: 56:19

Yeah, and for me, those ones do work the best, but yeah, I guess it is just, it's a slightly different thing that maybe they weren't really.

James: 56:29

these aren't for us, Lily. Maybe, you

Lily: 56:31

Yeah, maybe, because I was, I was thinking about other music documentaries to recommend, and they're all ones that are a mix, like Moon Age Daydream, the most amazing documentary about Bowie, but It's like very much his life story peppered with incredible scenes of him performing on stage. It's not, it's just not just concerts.

James: 56:51

Absolutely, it's a wonderful experience. I saw that at the IMAX. That was a great to see. That was a cinematic experience that washed over you.

Lily: 56:57

Okay, so to conclude, not for us, maybe, but glad, glad that it's happening. Keep going and seeing your favorite artists in the cinema. Help cinemas stay open.

James: 57:08

Absolutely. All three films have got something to recommend them. As far as a pop cultural cinema experience, I had a great time with Taylor Swift's Eras. But yeah, good films.

Lily: 57:18

Alright, James. So, shall we take a trip to the film pharmacy?

James: 57:22

Yes, please.

Lily: 57:27

Okay, so this week we were given the question. Hi, Lily and James. I've just started online dating again and some questionable films have come up during small talk. Do you have any red flag films, any films that would make you veto a potential partner?

James: 57:47

Oh, wow. Are we going to show ourselves as cinema snobs? It's like, it's a bit like looking at somebody's bookshelf, isn't it? And just thinking, okay, what are they reading? What's on the shelf? Cause you got to curate that goddamn bookshelf. Even if you haven't read any of it.

Lily: 57:59

James, this just reminds me of the time that you, um, the first time you stayed over at mine and you were like gazing up at my bookcase and you said, Lily, all of the books in here track with you apart from this one. And it was like, I think it was, it wasn't the gif, that, like the alchemist or the art. It was something like in that world, do you know, do you know what I'm saying? I've forgotten what it's called cause I hadn't even read it. And I had to explain, yeah, it was. It was something like that, and I didn't even know what the book was about, and I was like, Oh, yeah, an ex boyfriend bought that to me at a, um, at an airport once, and it's just been on my shelf ever since. And I think you were, honestly, you were about to reg, like, you were about to veto me. If I hadn't have said that, you would have been. And I think, I think promptly after I added that book to the, like, you know, book library, one of those little, like, mobile libraries on the book, on the wall outside.

James: 58:53

again. Yes. Our friendship, we're hugging the

Lily: 58:58

Yeah. But it's true. I mean, for me, it's more like, do you have books? If you don't have any books, that's like, very worrying. Not that

James: 59:06

God.

Lily: 59:07

much at all.

James: 59:08

No, we got to have books,

Lily: 59:09

But you've got to, we've got to, yeah, we've got to pay lip service to literature, even if we don't actually get into it. So anyway, okay, so do you, does anything come to mind for you? Is there anything?

James: 59:21

Um, I mean, the thing is, it hasn't yet come up, but I would consider Red Flags, if, if these were counted like favorite films, if it was like Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrel, but that's kind of, I'm not going to meet many women who say that, right? Just, just to be a little bit obvious, but, but if it was also just a male friend, I'd be like, ah, I'm not sure if this is going to, going to work.

Lily: 59:43

I think you've, I think you've hit the nail on the head though. I think gender is important, right? Because if you met a woman, a sexy lady, who said that lock, stock, suit, smoking barrels, was it I feel like you'd be intrigued. No, I

James: 59:56

would, I would be very intrigued. You're quite right. Yeah, I'd be like, yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right. Yeah. Maybe it'd be a, not a green flag, but it'd be a curious yellow flag, maybe.

Lily: 1:00:07

Yeah, whereas, oof, I'm trying to think of a film, like, if, if a woman said her favourite film was, I don't know, Bride Wars. I feel bad even saying that, that's so snobby, but if a woman said that I'd be like, oh okay, but if a man said that was his favorite, I would, I would quite, I would sort of be endeared to him, though I would wonder if we have much in

James: 1:00:32

here's some dating tips we've just come up with, right? Take the opposite gendered film that might be a red flag and it turns, it converts into

Lily: 1:00:42

A green flag. So if anyone asks you, Gumi, what your favourite film is, just think, ooh, as a, so for me going forward, I'm going to say Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels. Um, that, no, we're doing that on the podcast at some point, James, that is the film, do you know this about me? This is the film I quote the most by far.

James: 1:01:04

I did not know that about you until right this moment.

Lily: 1:01:06

Every line is quotable. Literally. I said it literally just earlier. I was, I was quoted. It just comes, it just flows out of me. I mean, that is a fantastic film

James: 1:01:16

It's a film. I've not seen. It's just the generic, like, chick flick go to. I've not seen it, so

Lily: 1:01:21

What? Oh my god, James. Oh, I'm so jealous of you. You have so much to look forward to in your life.

James: 1:01:27

See, I always, I always, I always got Bridget Jones's diary mistaken with Prozac Nation, the book.

Lily: 1:01:34

ha!

James: 1:01:35

And so when, when, when

Lily: 1:01:37

Oh my god.

James: 1:01:38

clip of Bridget Jones's diaries, oh, it's about like a regular person working office and she dates and it's like, it's not about hardline

Lily: 1:01:46

I was going to say, for our younger listeners, Prozac Nation was a film, a book, a best selling memoir in the 90s, right, about someone suffering with an addiction to Prozac, so. Oh

James: 1:01:57

but I just got diaries, things that just fused in my head.

Lily: 1:02:01

my god, I'm obsessed with that. That is, I mean, you've kind of the 90s, um. diarising, you know, self referential literature. Bridget Jones's diary is on one side, and then Presentation on the other. Oh, that's amazing. Uh, okay, just to bring it back to the question, I want to say that there wouldn't be any Red Flag film for me,

James: 1:02:24

no red flags, just red flag people, right, there's no red flag films,

Lily: 1:02:28

red flag films, yeah. Yeah, because, you know, yeah, I don't want to be too, like, you know, it's all subjective. We're just bringing our own opinions, so I wouldn't, I wouldn't want to judge anyone else.

James: 1:02:40

We're not helping people here how to avoid those red flags. We're so sorry. It's too, the burden of responsibility on groovy movies is too much.

Lily: 1:02:48

Yeah, that's a good point. I don't think you should veto any partner based on their films, but just note it. Keep it in mind. Add it to the tapestry of things you're learning about them and then make an informed decision. Okay, well, I think that's it for another episode of Groovy Movies. Thank you so much for Listening.

James: 1:03:08

Thank you very much for listening. And if you could give, give us a review or leave a like, it all helps get the podcast out there.

Lily: 1:03:14

Absolutely. All right. So we will see you next week. Bye.

James: 1:03:17

Bye.