Hex Appeal: Cinema’s Baddest Witches (Practical Magic, The Craft, The Witches of Eastwick)

It’s that spooky time of year and Practical Magic’s 25th anniversary. So this week we take a whistlestop tour through witch movie history to our final destination: the 90s (cinema’s hexiest decade?). 

References
‘Screaming, Flying, And Laughing: Magical Feminism’s witches in contemporary film, television and novels’ by Kimberly Ann Wells
‘Witches, “bitches” or feminist trailblazers? The Witch in Folk Horror Cinema’ by Chloe Germaine Buckley
‘“We are the weirdos”: how witches went from evil outcasts to feminist heroes’ by Anne T. Donahue for The Guardian
‘Magical Women, Witches & Healers’, Frames Cinema Journal, issue 16
The Evolution of Black Witches on Screen
‘How Hollywood Has Failed Black Witches’ by BreAnna Bell for Variety
‘Celebrating the magic of black witchiness in entertainment’ by Claire Lawrence for offcultured.com
‘Thirstory: The Real Witches of Hollywood’ by Mitchell Nugent for Interview
George Miller on directing The Witches of Eastwick
Cher on The Witches of Eastwick
Rachel True on The Craft
‘The Real Curse in Practical Magic is Heterosexuality’ by Natalie Adler for Vice

Film Pharmacy
Ikiru (1952) dir. by Akira Kurosawa
Jiro Dreams of Sushi (2011) dir. by David Gelb

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Transcript

Lily: 0:00

manic predatory dream girl, you know?

James: 0:02

I was gonna say he's like a nightmare.

Lily: 0:04

he's like But that's yeah. yeah. And then I thought, no, no, actually, he's way more controlling than that, welcome to Groovy Movies. My name is Lily Austin.

James: 0:15

Brailsford. Hello.

Lily: 0:17

Hey James, how are you feeling?

James: 0:20

Uh, a little bit under the weather today, so, I'm hoping I can still bring my, top level, uh, A game to the podcast.

Lily: 0:26

Oh, I don't think you'll be able to resist with this topic. I have every faith!

James: 0:31

ha! I, I have said the incantations. I have, lit an incense, cast a spell. Yeah.

Lily: 0:36

Done a few hexes. Sent some curses. Okay, great. Well, yes, we're alluding to the theme of the episode because next week, of course, is Halloween. So, with that in mind, we decided to do an episode on witches. Because cinema, I feel like it was made for witches. It's got an illustrious history of films either featuring witches or focused on witches as the whole plot. And so, I mean, it's a rich scene for us to discuss.

James PICKUP: 1:05

So what's the appeal of this kind of movie for you, Lily? Because, I mean, I never really watched these films when I was younger, this type of film. I would say that like my kind of thing that I was into was more science fiction and Star Wars so what, what was the appeal of these kind of movies for you when you were growing up?

Lily: 1:21

Probably because, I think there aren't that many movies where women are both feared but also revered

James PICKUP: 1:31

this is interesting because, because like for me it was, it was much, it, that feels very, very nuanced and uh, like rounded whereas for me it was easy like I wanted to be Luke Skywalker blowing up the baddies. You know, it was like, it

Lily: 1:42

but that's the same thing. I mean, I'm, I'm giving it this like.

James PICKUP: 1:47

Stevie Nick's

Lily: 1:48

perspective, yeah, but basically it's the same thing. We wanted to be, like, I wanted to be these witches. Uh, I wanted, you know, like, it's just the same as being an action character, I guess. It's like having powers that you, you wish you had, but you sort of think you do have. And also having the agency to, to do what you want with them. I guess that's it.

James PICKUP: 2:13

So it's just a very satisfying and comforting like escapist fantasy.

Lily: 2:17

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I guess all, well, I don't know what you think, but I think, I guess all escapist fantasy, it's escapist, but it's also hinged on the appeal of something that you might be able to be, you know, it's relating to something.

James PICKUP: 2:33

There's something that's relatable to it that you can almost imagine yourself in that situation. Right, I see.

Lily: 2:38

I guess so. I don't know. I mean, it must be the same as why everyone's obsessed with Harry Potter. Something about that, like, It, it, the comforting familiarity of the school, of a boarding school, or like, an aspiration of something familiar like that, but then also with magic

James PICKUP: 2:53

but it's all with a supernatural twist. So, so of the films we watched

James: 2:58

have you seen them all before?

Lily: 3:00

Uh, you know, I hadn't seen The Witches of Eastwick

James: 3:05

Right. Yeah, no, I'd never seen any of them before, actually. I'd heard of all three quite well, but um, but never seen any of them. They're all new to me.

Lily: 3:14

Yeah, that's right, because we're, to give you a full overview of what's coming up, guys, we are talking about The Witches of Eastwick from 1987. The Craft from 1996. It is the 25th anniversary of Practical Magic coming out, so I had to insist on us doing an episode which featured Practical Magic.

James: 3:34

Right. I see you. This is a bit like my, uh, trying to shoehorn a Nolan in here. This is, this is a personal favorite.

Lily: 3:41

Yeah, exactly, exactly. I actually can't believe we haven't talked about it before.

James: 3:45

Okay.

Lily: 3:46

But to give a little, I wanted to fully immerse us in the cinematic history of witches. Well, I say fully, I will definitely be missing a few things, so please don't come for me if I've missed out on anything crucial. But,

James: 3:57

Oh, come for us. Come for us. Just, just get in touch. You do come for us. We love it.

Lily: 4:01

But I just really wanted to like, trace witches through cinema, because It's an interesting history when you, when you think about feminism and how women are represented in film and lots of issues around that because it basically tracks with it. So, I mean, you look back to Snow White in 1937. This is like a classic film which depicts the fear of aging women, right? There are evil sorcerers and witches in this film who, whose main plight is the, oh, The main bugbear is the fact that there's a younger Hossa woman than them, despite the fact that they're very powerful and have a lot more going for them than this, like, that is Snow White.

James: 4:44

I never thought of it like this before, but yeah,

Lily: 4:46

Yeah? And then you move on to the Wizard of Oz. We've got good witches and bad witches, and the bad witch in that, she's pissed off because her sister has been killed by a house falling on her.

James: 4:57

Seems fair enough.

Lily: 4:58

Seems very fair enough, and yet, and yet, because she's so angry, she is to be feared. So, the angry woman trope.

James: 5:05

I mean, doesn't all the Wicked Witch of the West want? She just wants her dead sister's shoes that, that Dorothy caused the death of. Isn't that right?

Lily: 5:13

Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah.

James: 5:16

It doesn't seem an unreasonable request. Anyway,

Lily: 5:18

No, exactly. Exactly, James. And then we fast forward to 1964 and we witched the TV series that perfectly coincides with second wave feminism. And in this film, we get to see a witch doing good work and pretty empowered. Okay, she is ultimately a white middle class housewife,

James: 5:38

I was about to say, my memory of it vaguely is that she's a, like a suburban American housewife who you can wiggle her nose and do magic tricks.

Lily: 5:46

Yes. So it's it's definitely baby steps. But there there But there are but the show does show her as a fairly empowered woman who is using her magic to do to kind of, uh, you Move herself forward and the relationship between her and her husband shows that they're pretty equal. So, yeah, it's not a perfect depiction of womanhood. I'm not the wokest, I guess. But, uh, but it's in the right direction.

James: 6:15

Okay. And then I guess it's maybe trying to, trying to make, uh, trying to make witchy witchcraft more relatable, more modernize it by essentially making it an every woman type character.

Lily: 6:25

Yeah, I think so. And I think in putting it in a quite a normal... Like, context rather, like the fantasy being quite minimal and tied into the domestic sphere.

James: 6:37

Ooh. I could do With one of their magic tricks to get all the dishes done after.

Lily: 6:40

I think by doing that you kind of We get a little bit more of um, a portrayal of magic as Being something connected with women having power. And I think that is what women find quite compelling about, about the whole concept of, witches. When it's reframed, not as a thing that shows women are scary and to be, and feared and have to be controlled, but as having something special that should be celebrated.

James: 7:06

Okay

Lily: 7:07

so then we, I wanted to move on to the 1970s, because this is an interesting time for film, during the Blacksploitation era. And... During that time, we get to see a rise in black witches on screen. Whereas before, in all those films I've listed, and most of the major films about witches that follow, there's very rarely a representation of black witches. But within the black exploitation genre, there is a bit more of that. Very few films, even at this point, very few films just about black witches, that's still quite rare, but in films like Scream, Blackula, Scream, you get to see Pam Greer as a witch who,

James: 7:45

Oh, great.

Lily: 7:46

yeah, and she's amazing at it, and she isn't just doing bad magic. In much earlier, portrayals of black witches 1930s, It's a portrayal of, voodoo and hoodoo where the women are doing kind of evil and it's like examples of vengefulness. Whereas in these Batsploitation films, there are more complex portrayals going on. These women aren't just doing evil, they're, they're often like good but, and, and harnessing magic to do good or to resolve something that is going on in the narrative. So things get a little bit more interesting and more complex basically. And the other really interesting film from the Black Support Asian era was The Wiz,

James: 8:27

the, The all black, retelling of the Wizard of Oz story with Michael Jackson as the Scarecrow.

Lily: 8:33

yes, exactly, which we are definitely going to do an episode on at some point, James has been nagging me about that for a while.

James: 8:41

if, if.

Lily: 8:41

worry, I haven't forgotten.

James: 8:43

If we're doing The Wiz, then we're doing one from the heart, that's all I'm saying.

Lily: 8:46

Oh, but, I mean, both, definitely both, but yeah, but, but the Wiz, it, it's an interesting one, it's, it's, I think it's definitely worth a watch if you're, if you're interested, particularly in the portrayal of black witches, because there are three witches in this film, and they kind of track with problematic depictions of, of black women in cinema.

James: 9:07

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and The Wiz is certainly a very interesting film. It, uh, it was, I think, Motown Records first and only attempt at making feature films.

Lily: 9:16

So then we move forward to the 90s, drum roll please. The 90s, because as with pretty much every genre in film, the cinema, as I would argue, is the strongest, or maybe not strongest, but most prolific, I guess I should say. And that's kind of where we are landed with these films. Okay, so the witch of each wick is 1987. So again, I'm pushing my definition of the nineties

James: 9:37

Yeah, yeah,

Lily: 9:38

It's on the cus Yeah. But the, the size of films that we are talking about, I of course have to give a shout to the Witches 1990 Angelica Houston at Her Most Scary and then Hocus Pocus in 1993. Both of these films portray witches as evil. Scary to differing degrees. Obviously in Hocus Pocus they all paid for laughs, but It's interesting when you look at these films, especially I think Hocus Pocus because in it we've got Bette Midler, Sarah Jessica Parker, and Kathy Najimy playing different archetypes of, of, of what is wrong with women. So, Bette Midler's character is very screaming and controlling. Bossy. Sarah Jessica Parker is the young, stupid seductress. And then Kathy Najimy is... character is crazy, and a bit of a weirdo. It's like this film perfectly encompasses these, these three different ways women are kind of criticized

James: 10:33

I,

Lily: 10:33

and told that they shouldn't be and should, we should fear women being this way.

James: 10:38

Right. Yeah, I'd never, again, again, I've not, I've watched a bit of Hocus Pocus because I was intrigued by Hocus Pocus 2. And, uh, yeah, I definitely hadn't come close to that kind of reading on it, but you're absolutely right. Yeah, make, it makes sense.

Lily: 10:50

Yeah, so that, I think that takes us, that brings us to the films we're going to talk about. Because I would argue in each of these three films, There is a little bit more of a nuanced, interesting portrayal of witches. They are not, just out and out evil. There's a bit more complexity there, to differing degrees. But I'm very interested to hear what you think, James. So let's, shall we start with the Witches of

James: 11:16

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I'd not see any of these three films and I would say out of the three, uh, that we watched, this was the one I was probably most interested in watching. Just, I didn't really know much about it, but it's one that Gets mentioned when we look back at like the golden age of seventies, eighties, big blockbuster filmmaking from Hollywood. This, this is one of those kind of ones that it's not really an action movie. It's not really a horror movie. It's just a piece of entertainment. Let's say like a big budget Hollywood confection. So. This was the one that I was certainly most intrigued to see because, uh, because I didn't quite know what to expect from it, whereas I had more preconceptions about, um, the craft and, um, practical magic. and from the get go, from the first few shots, I just thought, oh, this is, This seems promising, um, you know, like it's always good when you, from the first few shots, you get into a film. And so I was interested, like, who's directed this? And also, it looks beautiful. Who shot this? And so, um, it was shot by Vilmos Zigmund, who's one of the greatest American cinematographers ever to have lived.

Lily: 12:16

Oh, wow.

James: 12:17

He's a master. And I was fortunate enough, actually, uh, in 2003, I was taught by him for two weeks in a Budapest cinematography masterclass where a bunch of us got sent over. It was just a lot. You know, I've been, I've been, had the pleasure to be taught by him. So I've paid particular attention to his work. Won the Oscar for Close Encounter of the Third Kind. So this is very much, you know, this is the hymn at the height of his powers. Both as far as like, it's the, it's the mid to late 80s. He's done loads of good work in the 70s. So, you know, he doesn't get questioned. He gets to work on the top projects. And then it's directed by George Miller, who I had no idea he did this. You know, I know him as the guy who did. All of the Mad Max film from the very first one in the seventies. He's done happy, but done both happy feats, animated films, and he did Mad Max Fury Road, and he's also slotted this in the middle of this oeuvre.

Lily: 13:08

I love, I love that, uh, I love that your go to is about the cinematography and the director. Okay, fair enough, director, but for me, it's just all about the cast and particularly that Cher is in this film.

James: 13:19

Oh, I mean, I mean, I think both of these things are valid is what this film is. It's everything's a list you've got. You've got like. You've got the biggest Hollywood actors, you've got the best cinematographer, you've got, uh, maybe it's not the Hollywood's greatest, but you've got one of the best directors, you know, no expense has been spared, um, the cast is incredible, absolutely, it's, it's, it's on every level of the production, I guess just because of where I come from, like, I'm a director, cinematography nerd, so I latch onto those things, but the whole, the rest of the production is, is similarly top tier.

Lily: 13:49

Yeah, yep. So Jack Nicholson plays Daryl Van Horn. Cher, Susan Sarandon and Michelle Pfeiffer play... Three single women who are very good friends and, uh, equally unhappy with their lives in the kind of small town of Eastwick. So they, they wish for a man to come, to kind of save them from the boredom and dissatisfaction they have with their lives. And so, Jack Nicholson, as Daryl Van Horn, Here's their core. This man appears the next day. Who they all, I think they all across the board, all three of them find him a bit weird, but they also all are seduced by him and end up former kind of coven together with him where he helps them to discover that they've got these magic powers

James: 14:39

They all make a deal with the devil, don't they? Like, he's their muse.

Lily: 14:42

he's basically the devil

James: 14:44

Yeah.

Lily: 14:45

the, is the. The strong suggestion and yeah, they make a deal with the devil to kind of become empowered women which is it seems very much tied in with their sexuality and how kind of repressed or like like unactive, inactive their sex lives are at that time because that seems to be a very important element of it

James: 15:07

it makes me realize I, I don't watch these kinds of films that often these days, but, um, but, but I, I loved it. It, it, um, what was It makes me realize I, I don't watch these kinds of films that often these days, but, um, but, but I, I loved it. It, what was interesting for me as well, thinking, Oh God, I certainly don't watch many performances from Jack Nicholson from this era. You know, like, like I've, I've seen a lot of his, um, earlier stuff, like Easy Rider and then the seventies. Um, and then I'm thinking I grew up to like the Shining and then I've seen him in Batman, which is 88. So this is the year after that. Um, and that's kind of about it for just Jack Nicholson general performances. But watching him in this, it is like, cause I didn't know anything about the background. I was like, okay, is this an original screenplay? Cause this feels like it was written 100 percent for Jack Nicholson to play that character. But then reading into it is based on a book, but certainly,

Lily: 15:58

by John

James: 15:59

you know. Yeah, and it just, the character, it's, it's just essentially how you imagine Jack Nicholson might be as a real person. It's, it's, you could imagine that for some of the scenes, he's just come in from a night out of partying and they've gone, right then Jack, and action. Uh, which I'm sure that's the entire point,

Lily: 16:16

Yeah, and you know, interestingly, George Miller didn't want Jack Nicholson for the part. He wanted Bill Murray, originally. Um, but then, I think there was some kind of diary clash or something, and Bill Murray couldn't do it, and the producers were very keen for Jack Nicholson to come on. Similarly, George Miller really didn't want Cher. In fact, apparently he phoned her up and told her so, told her that he didn't find her sexy, he didn't like her hair, she was too old to play the part, she was The, the, the old age of 40, uh, and Cher basically was like, well, fuck you, I've got an Oscar, so. So, he, uh, I mean, I'm just, speaks to Cher's incredible character, because I would have been like, I'm never going to work with this man, what an arsehole, but she, she didn't let that bother her. Weirdly, actually, Susan Sarandon was meant to play Cher's part, but Cher said she only wanted to play the part that Susan Sarandon had been picked for. So, the producers didn't tell Susan this, she arrived on set to, to learn that she wasn't playing the part she had wanted. Yeah, so there were two weeks, yeah, so there were two weeks when Cher and Susan Sarandon didn't speak to each other. But then eventually they finally did, because they, they, but everyone was having grievances with the producers. Realised, It's kind of what happened and how it was nothing to do with the two of them. And then the three of them became Thick as Thieves throughout filming. And apparently Jack Nicholson was like in that corner the whole time. So, it's a juicy behind the scenes story to the filming of this film.

James: 17:46

yeah. I mean, it sounds as well. When I saw it was a Gruber's Peters production, I was like, Oh my God. So I'm not even surprised they had issues with the producers. Like John Peters is an notorious producer in Hollywood with some very eccentric views and thoughts on, on feature film production.

Lily: 18:00

Oh really? Well yeah, I listened to an interview with George Miller where he said he like many times wanted to leave the film. He was like so angry and upset with how they were handling it. And it was... It was Jack Nicholson the whole time, supporting him, saying no, no, no, look at the rushes, we've got great stuff, don't give up on this, we are doing great work.

James: 18:20

Yeah, because like watching Jack Nicholson, this is clearly, this is post The Shining where everyone wants Jack Nicholson to do a shining on their film, where it's this big, operatic, over the top, bombastic performance, whereas, you know, like with The Shining, it's, it worked its way up to there, you know, in the film, you kind of get to that point, whereas here, it's just like, we're like, The word that came to my mind, it's a word that seems to be quite popular with the younger folk these days, it's like, he's a bit extra. Especially the first few scenes, it's like, fucking hell, it's a bit, he's a bit extra. He's a bit, there's a lot of Jack Nicholson, like, full on here.

Lily: 18:56

Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, he's very funny. This has been described as a horror comedy, this film, which I guess kind of makes sense. And um, And Jack Nicholson is very funny. That scene where he languishes on the bed,

James: 19:15

the bed

Lily: 19:16

it's so, and he's kind of laying his whole body out in this very sexy manner, like he's really feeling himself, but he's in these pyjamas and it's, and it's Jack Nicholson, you

James: 19:26

when, when, I loved when he took his, when he took his dressing gown off, he'd had the very high wasted trousers. Like Oh, right. That's very flattering for, uh, the fuller figure of a middle aged man. Mu must remember to get some of those be capsule wardrobe

Lily: 19:40

Yeah, exactly, yeah. So, so it is, it's enjoyable to watch, but you're, you're absolutely right. It's big from, from the beginning. There's no build up to it. Um, which I did find a bit confusing actually, I think. It, it's just very of it's time, right? It really reminded me of Death Becomes Her, tonally. That, I feel like the 80's there were a lot of films which, big budget, amazing cast. And they're, they're quite broad comedies. But then in, intertwined with that is this, this quite goofy weirdness. And, and also a very strong sexual element, like a lot of the comedy, a lot of the dialogue is about sex, and and you just don't see that these days, that's quite a specific mix that was, I feel, very prevalent in the kind of late 80s, but then it's, since then, it's just, that's faded away. That, I feel like you can really locate it in that particular era.

James: 20:38

Yeah, no, no, I, I was having similar thoughts watching this. Um, it reminded me that there's, this is the kind of film that Hollywood used to do a lot of that we don't see anymore. That it was clearly a big budget production and everything about it is like top quality. But it's not an action film. It's not a, you know, it's not an extreme horror film. It's, it's, it's a bit of an, it's a, it's a Hollywood confection. It's an entertaining, funny, Witchy, spooky, scary, but adult kind of dark comedy. Um, and I just thought, oh yeah, I haven't really seen, like I say, lots of sexy, suggestive stuff all the way through it, which, you know, you can't imagine would land these days, um, let alone be made.

Lily: 21:20

I think it would land. I just don't, I just don't think it's ever being made. I feel like people would, because it's happening on TV all the time, you know. That, like, this, it's just, it's just that cinema, like, big. production companies are too scared of doing something that won't appeal to the whole family. But I think, yeah, it's funny because like, it's called The Witches of Eastwick, but it's really about, it's as, it's as much Jack Nicholson's film as it is the three of theirs. In fact, I mean the poster speaks to that. The poster has Jack Nicholson behind them, almost like a master puppeteer, and the, and that's kind of the, that's the whole. The narrative that you're getting from the film, which I have to say I found quite jarring because I just didn't know what the, that element of the film at all. I didn't know Jack Nicholson was in the film. I just knew that Cher and Susan Sarandon were in

James: 22:09

Oh, right. Cause, cause I, I'd seen the poster. So I knew he was in it and I imagine like, and I just guessed, well, he's clearly going to be the devil, isn't he? Cause just look at Jack Nicholson, for God's sake in that period, you know, he's, he's absolutely the devil.

Lily: 22:21

Yeah, and I think I'm so informed by practical magic in my understanding of witches. But the idea that it would be a film about three women wishing for a man, then the man controlling them, and then ultimately them still wanting him in their lives is kind of where we end up. It's like a very, it's a very hetero normative film. And it definitely, I don't know, it doesn't, it's, it's, it's an odd one. It's an odd combination. Because they do become emancipated, right, sexually, and they're, they're, they're obviously having a good time with their, kind of, their poly, what would you call it?

James: 22:59

I don't know what it is. Yeah, I was like, oh god, it's not a triple, is it? Cause quadruple? Uh, yeah.

Lily: 23:04

mean, it was very Mormon. It's good being Mormon by its three wives, sister wives.

James: 23:09

I like the thing I think watching this because when he first went the first Part of the film. I couldn't quite get the tone. I was like, how much is this a comedy? And how much is this a serious? Should we be worried about it? And, and, and it's, he's kind of somewhere in between. And, and the first few scenes with Jack Nicholson, I found him quite unappealing. And I thought if he's gonna be like, if, if he's gonna be like this for the whole film, I'm not gonna really enjoy this. But very quickly he became more nuanced. I really loved when he stopped being like, this clang of buffoonish. Um, unlikable character to kind of doing the deal with the devil kind of real kind of powerful seduction mode. And it just changed the tone of the film a little bit, but, um, what I slowly started to pick up on was the, the, the tone of this film. It's like, um, like a fairy tale somehow it's got a mythological quality to it because to begin with you're like, Oh yeah. None of this feels quite real, like, I don't believe these are real people, but then you realize that the whole thing's like a, you know, you don't just conjure someone from nowhere who turns out to be the devil. The whole thing's got this, like, dream like, almost like everybody's an archetype to some degree. And, and I really got into that. Once I realized that was what's going on, that, don't worry about this, what we're watching isn't trying to be reality. It is some kind of fairy story for adults

Lily: 24:21

Yeah, and that's very Death Becomes Her and it's also very, uh, Ghostbusters.

James: 24:26

Hey, yeah, yeah,

Lily: 24:27

You know, like, all these films have this comedy, supernatural, action genre, these tropes going on, uh, and, and in all of them it only works because It's within a world that isn't really our world, that's not naturalistic, but it, but it's done in a way that's quite inviting and fun to watch, and you're like, it all makes sense within that world, so yeah, that's not a problem, you know, it's not trying to be realistic, obviously. Yeah, you're right, there is, yeah, that, I think because it reminded me of those other films, I was quite happy being in that. And I loved everything at that mansion. I liked the scene with the tennis, them playing tennis back and forth and getting jealous, and then them all ending up together in the pool together.

James: 25:14

it's got some beautiful late eighties visual effects that aren't CGI. So they're almost more impressive when you think, Oh, right. And I don't know how they quite did that, but it wasn't just let's throw a computer at it.

Lily: 25:25

But yeah, but for me that was when it started to like, I started to lose a bit of interest was that final third

James: 25:33

I think with all three of these films is an element of I'm not quite sure what's going on that they can suddenly be a bit little bit convoluted. So I agree with you. This was him, but, but I just kind of got that generally, um, cause it felt like there were lots of conversations that I was missing out on that I wasn't seeing. But, um, you know, but, but, but I just kind of, I, I was enjoying being in the world, like you say, this kind of quasi kind of slightly ghostbusters heightened fantasy world. But another thing to mention as well, talking about every. Everything being top quality A list. Also, John Williams doing the score. I was like totally into all the score for it, all the

Lily: 26:10

Yeah. I saw that. Yeah. It's, it's a funny one. I kind of, I was left feeling very mixed about it because I was so into it to begin with the scene of the three women together having drinks at one of their house and sharing like, Come on girls, let's live our lives. I was like, yes, I love to see this. This is great. And I like, I like witches and female friendship. These two things go hand in hand, so I'm into that. Uh, and I mean, hey, they're very much on that path towards the end because they bandied together to handle what needs to be handled. But, yeah, I don't know. It just, I think you're, I think you've nailed it actually. It's just that there are, there seem to be a lot of missing pieces and I was just trying to like figure everything out. It was, it wasn't super clear cut what everything meant. I mean, the very fact they never even acknowledge that they are witches. And like, that's a choice, that's fine in a way. But like. There was a lot of that, right? And it's not like it's the kind of film that suss It's not like, you know, this is a movie all about symbolism and we've got to figure out for ourselves. I don't think that's what the vibe is, so...

James: 27:21

But, but I, I almost kind of like part, I was, part of me was like, Oh God, we've not had the thing where they realize they're witches you know, you don't get bogged down dramatically with the, let's have the conversation where they go, we're witches really, blah, blah, blah. It's kind of, we're just kind of getting on, we're getting on with the story. And I did actually notice that with all three of these films, really, we don't have a, Hey, we're witches. Or like, OMG, can you believe this thing? It's like, there's a lot of just like getting on with the witchy stuff, which I suspect if that's what you've turned up for that, that's probably quite satisfying. You know, the very first sequence of the film is them, them realizing that they thought things and they happened. And so we're very quickly getting on with the story.

Lily: 27:58

Yeah, see, cause I mean, it's interesting, that film, there is this, there are repeated. plot points of sexual harassment for the women in this film. But it's, it's kind of weird how we start with that. And in some sense it feels like we're on quite a feminist journey in this film. But then it goes completely off piste with their relationship with Jack. Yeah, exactly. Jack Nicholson also is actually a harasser. I mean, I thought initially when he first read him, he was like, he's almost like a manic pixie dream girl. But like, the male version. Like, manic pixie. Manic, predatory dream girl, you know?

James: 28:36

I was gonna say he's like a nightmare.

Lily: 28:38

he's like But that's yeah. yeah. And then I thought, no, no, actually, he's way more controlling than that, unfortunately.

James: 28:46

About what I like about him, he starts off incredibly powerful. There's, there's something about, um, I don't know much about my like kind of mythological stories and tales, but there does something seem to be about a devil character in like in old myths where he then gets turned into a, he starts off being a genuinely terrifying presence, but then essentially becomes quite weak and powerless and almost a comedic figure. And that happened to the witches of East, which are quite like us. For the first half of his time in the film, he's very clearly in control, got lots of powers, but then they seem to diminish as the women get more powerful, and he becomes almost like a joke towards the end.

Lily: 29:23

I think, uh, it's the minute that they decide. That they don't want him in their lives anymore, they're not interested in him and turn away from him. That is when he starts to become like, he's clearly losing his power which is why he's getting so manic and does really dark things which only in turn makes it worse for him. So I think, actually, like, as we're talking about it, there's something interesting in that and the idea that The devil, or like, anything evil. It's like, it's only got power if you let it have power, and it's, all you have to do is turn away, and then it won't, or,

James: 29:57

which it seems that that's what was happening there, again, without it being overly discussed or signposted, which I quite liked.

Lily: 30:03

But the thing is, I'm only really getting to that by talking to you about it right now. Maybe that's often how it is with film, but in, during the film, I was just thinking, What? What's going on? This is, this is a lot, but, but

James: 30:13

Once I took it more as like, what we're watching here is like a bit of a mythological tale. It's a dark adult fairy tale of some description.

Lily: 30:20

Yeah, yeah. Okay, well, should we move on to the craft?

James: 30:24

Uh, yeah. Yes, please. Yes. Let's move on.

Lily: 30:27

Alright, so The Craft, as I said before, was made in 1996. Directed by Andrew Fleming and a story by Peter Filardi. Filardi? Filardi?

James: 30:40

Filardi.

Lily: 30:41

So, you'll notice that in both The Witches of Eastwick and The Craft, these are directed and written by men. I just, I just flagged this. It's for when we move on to speak about practical, practical magic, just a point to bear in mind, but let's discuss the craft. So, uh, just to give you a little overview in case you haven't seen it, strongly recommend to watch. It follows Sarah Bailey, who's played by Robin Tunney. Uh, she's a new girl in school. She encounters three girls who kind of spot in her that she's got an amazing magical power. And she's like, oh great, we finally found our fourth to complete our coven. So she joins the girl gang. They all have things that they're unhappy about in their life, so with their newfound magical powers, they're able to resolve these problems. But, they then encounter the Wiccan rule of three. This is a real thing in Wicca, by the way. Is that whatever you send out, you'll get back times three. So, of course, everything that's gone right for them starts to unravel. The magic they're using soon becomes clear to be much darker than perhaps they would have encountered. And their friendship starts to deteriorate as a result. But I'll say no more than that. James, what did you think of the craft? What are your thoughts? Ha ha ha! Did you did you hate it?

James: 32:01

So, you know, I do feel like this film particularly was, I'm not really as target audience. I don't think anyone made the craft going late forties, white male. This is for you. But, uh, but I think there was some, I think there was some things that I could certainly appreciate. But, uh, but yeah, I don't think I was demographic.

Lily: 32:19

the film came out, like you would've been like kind of in the Yeah. So you would've been the, the right sort of target mark. Okay. I mean, I know it, it was actually explicitly targeted at Teen Girls and this was an interesting time in, in, in Hollywood because it was in this point in the, kind of the mid nineties. That Hollywood really realized that teen women were actually, teen girls were an important demographic that they should be targeting explicitly. You know, films like Clueless and, and yeah, The Craft was like a huge hit.

James: 32:51

one thing I noticed from this actually. Yeah. Are you watching it now? Oh God. Yeah. All female central characters, the kind of the plots, it's, you know, the guys are in it, but they're very secondary, they're very kind of like, they orbit around the main female gang, which even now, it was notable, uh, just watching it now, that that stood out.

Lily: 33:11

Yeah, and I think most people, even if they haven't seen The Craft, most, most women will have it as a visual reference. Because it very much, kind of,

James: 33:23

a real emo goth look to it all, hasn't it?

Lily: 33:26

I wouldn't say emo, but I would say goth. I feel like that, it was very, yeah, it was very much, it's like, canon in that 90s goth girl trend. And I mean, there were lots of films and TV, you know, Buffy the Vampire, like, came out around, around this time as well. Like, there was a lot, it was very much on trend, witches and film at this time. But I think this film, like, just in terms of the styling, it definitely fits with that kind of gothic crosses, mini skirts, but also, like, Like, lace and, you know, that, that kind of combination of things, so I think, I honestly think that is why this film has endured more than the story itself. It's quite odd because I had seen it before, but I actually watched it again and I was like, oh wow, I forgot, I, I forgot that actually this film is like, it's messages are not very feminist at all, and we think of it as being part of this canon when actually, I think on a, on a very surface level, yes, great to see four women protagonists, but the messages of it seems to be, female friendship is completely phony, you can't really trust your female friends, they will turn their back on you if you don't do as they say, and also that, I mean the main message about these witches seems to be that women can't handle power, they shouldn't be allowed to have it, because these women become powerful and then everything goes wrong, one of them goes mad and is like, Basically total evil. And then the others ultimately lose all of their power pretty much,

James: 34:53

I have to say, watching this, um, I just think it, it, Not, not, not very strong directing, basically. I, I, you know, I, I was looking at the, both the directors of the next two films, that this is kind of the biggest film of either their careers, really. Like, uh, Andrew Fleming has subsequently gone on to direct other things, but possibly not something on this level. So, I just think this is what happens, or for me, anyway, like, The Witches of Eastwick is this, is this kind of witchy... Not too serious, but got an edge to it. Entertainment, but done by A listers. This is like... I think the script could have done with another draft, and it would have been better. I think get a stronger director, because what, what, what I found was... Not helping me engage with the craft was just that I wasn't quite sure whose story we were telling and I think that muddled things a bit because, um, I thought at first we were going to be following like Feruza Bolk and Eve Campbell and Rachel True's characters. I thought we were going to follow them discovering their witches and then discovering that there's a dark god that they can, they can worship to mammon or something. Um, But that's not the case. They're already witches. And so it's like, all right, so now we've got the new girl story. The new girl, who's the, like the innocent who comes into the gang. Um, but it basically doesn't commit to like. What I feel it should have done. It should have very much been the new girl story. It should have been her with Discovering her nascent powers and being seduced by this appealing group of witches who we never really get to know that Well, we only see them through like her eyes So I don't know I just felt that we split between the two and I wasn't quite sure who we were following here or why?

Lily: 36:30

I actually, uh, I, I felt like we were following, uh, Robin Tunney's character. Uh, She was definitely to me the protagonist, But I do, I kind of see what you mean in that, I don't think she was very well written. Like, you don't really get a, a strong sense of her interior life, despite the fact that we know that, like, Well, we, we learn It's weird, right? There's a bit where one of the girls goes, Who's that? And points at a picture, and she said, Oh, that's my real mum. And I thought, Real mum? Like, what, what, what fake mum do you have? And then you learn, just at this moment, towards the end, when something dramatic happens, That she apparently has a stepmum, but we never met the stepmum. So that's So I think you're right. It's like, things like that, right? Where you're like There, there's a lot that's missing from the, the portrayal. And, uh, but I think that's the problem with all of them. Like, I wanna, I wanted to mention, kind of, the representation of black witches in, in cinema. As absent as that pretty much is. Because the, one of the interesting things about the craft is the fact that Rachel True is in it. And it's very unusual to see a black witch portrayed in general. But, but, kind of on, on an even playing field as part of a group of white witches, that's unusual. But when you look into that a bit further, so originally the character she plays was meant to be white, and the storyline was that she was bulimic. So they, they, when they cast Rachel True, they changed the storyline to make it a story about race, and her experiencing racism. And interestingly, Rachel True said in an interview that, When she saw that the script had changed, she wondered if, she was like, do they think of blackness as a problem? And she then subsequently says that actually when I got older I, I, I think now on reflection it is very good that that storyline was in there. But I kind of know exactly what she means because the storyline is so, It's like very significant in that one scene, but then we, we kind of never really go there again with it. So it's not like proper, and also, Rachel True is the only one of the four who we don't get any backstory at all. We don't meet her parents, we don't see her home life, whereas, none of them are very well drawn, but at least in Nev Campbell and Faroo's book you meet their mums and see them outside of school. Rachel True's character is so, so minimal. And so, there's a lot of that, right, of like, not fully fleshing out. The characters and the story. And I think, and that's all I wanted to know. Like, I wanted to get to know them more. Honestly, like, the, the kind of, the, the plot around, uh, Skeet Ulrich's character, the guy that Sarah Bailey, like, gets, like, I don't care about that that much. Like, I'd rather have just focused on their friendships.

James: 39:19

I really enjoyed Bulk. Um, I thought she

Lily: 39:23

Yeah, she's

James: 39:24

performance as Nancy. But, but I kind of missed there as well. I just felt that there was interesting scenes or things that weren't really developed because she talks about this, uh, the mammon kind of, is it mammon or ma Um, kind of the, the, the, the, deity that they worship. She just suddenly seems to turn full evil quite quickly. And I just felt like there was a whole bunch of drama there where, and so do the two other members of the gang, Neve Campbell and, Rachel True. You know, they, they suddenly, suddenly they, they, they were like witchy and interesting, but now they're just pure evil towards the end. And

Lily: 39:54

Yeah.

James: 39:55

didn't see that switch coming

Lily: 39:56

And it was a jump, right? It was such a jump. Yeah, because actually, I mean, I'm being quite negative, but I love the first half of this film. Like, okay, I can understand why it doesn't appeal to you, but I love seeing these girls at high school in their cute outfits, like, figuring out how to solve the problems in their lives, and they're all working. I mean, hilarious when Fruiser Bulks character, uh, gets 175, 000 from an insurance plan, and that means I'm able to buy this luxury flat! Sky high luxury flat. I mean, but again, that was a little bit baffling because the solve to her problems is apparently getting money. But like, to me, the real issue in her life was that her mother was quite awful to her. It seemed to be quite an abusive home life. And okay, that could partly get solved by her. By the spell bumping off her stepdad, but I'd have liked there to have been a bit more depth to it. It felt like, with all of these issues, you're talking about things that could be, that are quite, they're real traumas. And the souls are so shallow, and then we just leave them and it becomes about people, like magic itself being evil and out of control.

James: 41:10

I just feel like that's just the sure hand of a director who's kind of got a firm grip of all these kind of potential themes. It just feels like there's no, I don't know, it's almost been a bit scared to develop them further. So you get a hint of them, but then we don't really go anywhere. Yeah.

Lily: 41:28

Yeah. Apart from the evil magic witchiness, because I mean it gets really really dark towards the end, like really dark, like way darker than I remembered and I was a bit, I was a bit freaked out by that. It felt tonally to, like, that didn't quite make sense.

James: 41:45

Yeah, this film I thought, it took, like, whereas I, once I understood what was going on with, um, the tone of Witches of Eastwick, it very clearly became apparent that there was a deliberate tone here. I think, I found with the craft and practical magic, tonal shifts that were a bit jarring, I just, it just, again, I felt a bit yanked from one thing to the other.

Lily: 42:04

Yeah, okay, fair enough. So, so not your favourite witch film of the 90s.

James: 42:11

like, I'd like to say, I think the problem is that it's just, just, Like spaces to you, perhaps just in general, just like

Lily: 42:21

Aww.

James: 42:21

school settings of, of teenage. Anyway, teenagers like discussing their, like, it's probably not my go to

Lily: 42:30

Yeah, I mean, it's not really my neither, I have to say. I'm not usually that into high school settings in general. Uh, but, I don't know, aesthetically it really did appeal to me. Um, it's just that, and I, yeah, I like a, I like a witchy shop. I really enjoyed that.

James: 42:50

Oh yeah, no, good, good witchy shop in there. I

Lily: 42:52

Good witchy shop.

James: 42:53

me of the Love Witch, which also has a good witchy shop

Lily: 42:56

Yes, yeah, which we obviously, we're going to have to reference at some point. Um, but yeah. Yeah, I can understand that. I can understand that. Okay. Well, I'm a bit scared to move on, but shall we, should we get to practical magic?

James: 43:10

Yes, please. I'd love you to tell me about your, your relationship with practical magic. Cause I am aware that it's something that's developed quite a following over the years. And so I'm treading very lightly. All I'm saying, I was watching this thinking got to be careful because I realize it's very beloved to a lot of people. And I, and the thing is, I can definitely see why I can absolutely see why it is, but I want to know your relationship with it. When did you first see it?

Lily: 43:33

Ooh, I'm not sure when I first saw it, I think I was probably, I dunno how old I was. Uh, maybe a pre-teen. Definitely saw it on TV initially, and, uh, it became, In my household, a firm favourite, we had the soundtrack, uh, and we would, because the amazing thing about the soundtrack was it already, two of the songs on that album, A Case of You and Elvis You're Always on My Mind, they, they were already part of our family's soundtrack to life. So, it really appealed to my mum and sisters. So, uh, so yeah, so I've watched it many, many times, listened to that soundtrack many, many times. And have loved it ever since. I mean, I have to tell you, I only really recently, because, because it's the 25th anniversary, there's been a bit more press around Practical Magic this year. Um, and until, up until then, I didn't really know that it was a flop. And considered critically to be, it was really lambasted when it, when it came out.

James: 44:40

I, I have to say, I didn't, I didn't realize it was a flop until I was just doing the research for this. I, I kind of assumed it was something that did. Okay.

Lily: 44:46

Yeah, yeah, when I read about why, I had to really work hard to understand what they were talking about, like, the stuff around it being tonally all over the place, and the plot being, like, confusing. To me, the film is just so... Perfectly formed, like I just don't, I don't under, like I don't get it, but I have, I do, I, I do intellectually, I can understand now, I can work, I can figure out what people are talking about, but for me, this film is perfection, and honestly, I was thinking it would be one of my desert island films, but I won't, I won't pick it when it comes to my episode, because we, we have that rule about not films we talked about before, which does really hurt my heart, but yeah, I, I love it, I think, I, Griffin Dunn is a fantastic director, and, and,

James: 45:36

Griffin done. Griffin Done. Who, who's not really done anything since

Lily: 45:40

Yeah, because he didn't need to. Mic drop, job done. I've hit the peak. Why? Nothing will follow, so why bother? I've given the people what they want, I can, I can just kick back and enjoy my luxurious lifestyle.

James: 45:57

this is the ultimate expression of my artistic soul. I can't, I've said all I need to say about the, the, the art and the practice of cinema. This is it. Game over. Griffin out.

Lily: 46:08

it's I take my hat off to him, you know?

James: 46:12

Fair enough. And apparently, um, uh, Bette Midler was so entranced with the kitchen that they use in the film that she got the production designer to, to build her a real life version of that kitchen in her house.

Lily: 46:25

No. Oh my god. I would do the same. If I could, I abso fucking wouldly wouldly do

James: 46:31

apparently apparently much like Griffin Dunn doesn't really direct anymore. Apparently that production designer doesn't really production design anymore. She does interior designs.

Lily: 46:40

Oh my god, yeah, I, well, quite right, I'll give a quick plot synopsis. For those sad, sad people listening who haven't watched it yet. But don't, it's, it's, it's resolvable, you can watch this film right after you finish listening to that, it's gonna be okay. So, Fat School Magic follows, uh, Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman, they're the Owen sisters. Oh, and Nicole Kidman in like the role that like, very formative for me. I wish I were her. But anyway, uh, so they are two sisters, they live in a house with their aunt, played by Stockard Channing and Diane Wiest. Also f

James: 47:16

casting by the

Lily: 47:17

such fucking good casting. Yeah, god, I'm very passionate about this. Anyway, and basically, the deal with the Owens sisters, or the Owens women in the family, Is that they are witches, and there is a curse within the family that goes back hundreds of years. Um, to an early, a previous Owens woman, who was avoided being burnt at the stake for correctly being identified as a witch. And then is in exile on this island, the island that the film is actually set on. In kind of a mythic place somewhere in the kind of, uh, New England area, I guess. I don't actually know. Uh, Not important, but anyway, uh, and she, she's waiting for her husband there whilst pregnant, and he never comes, or her boyfriend. And she's so angry and hurt by this, that she, she casts a spell that she'll never fall in love again. And this kind of turns into a curse on the whole family, which is any man who falls in love with an Owens woman will die. So, that that is kind of...

James: 48:19

and I, I only fully appreciate this when I read the Wikipedia'cause I do have to say I'm with the people who said kind of hard to follow the plot. But, but yeah. Yeah.

Lily: 48:28

I mean, that is laid out in the first few minutes, so I don't think you were

James: 48:31

it is. But I was like, I was like, who's, why? Why are they now going away and why have they got kids and who's like, it's all, you're right, it is all there, Lily. I, I need it. It is all in the film. I just feel like I did, I really had a, a bit of an F time. Put it all together.

Lily: 48:47

Right, yeah, so, Sally, Sandra Bullock's Sally, she has an amazing natural gift. She's very, very good at magic. But she just wants to be normal. She's not interested in her witchy gifts. Whereas Nicole Kidman's Jillian, on the other hand, isn't, doesn't have much natural talent in this area. And would love to have it. But she has other talents, because she's very sexy. So it's okay. So, as they get a little older, Jillian leaves to go pursue adventures and sex, and Sally stays around the town, just trying to Shake off the, the reputation that the Owens women have in that town because they're quite openly Divided and feared despite the fact that they're, they're also, their talents are used. Women come to them and pay for them to help them Find love or do various things for them so there's this interesting dynamic in the town of them being hated and feared and like mocked but also respected and wanting their help and recognising their power. But Sally is not interested. She just wants a normal life. And little does she know that the aunts decide to help her in that by casting a spell and getting her to fall in love with this, like, boring nice guy in the town. They have two children together. He then, of course, dies because of the curse. And I think that's interesting, right? The fact that the daughters... James is like, what the fuck, what am I, I'm in a, sorry everyone, just bear with me. The interesting thing, right, those aunts know that there is this curse. I know that they argue about it, but they basically know, and yet they still cast the spell. I think for them the most important thing is we need to, we need them to have babies, we need a couple more girls, we need more Owen sisters to strengthen the coven. And then after that, off he goes. Not important. I mean, it's amazing because this guy doesn't speak during the whole, during his, his scenes in the film.

James: 50:45

Yeah, I was going to say, it's so unremarkable, it must be quite unremarkable, but if it doesn't have enough of a line to say, that would be why, uh, uh,

Lily: 50:52

But I love that because it's so rare for women to be the leads in a film and the men to be so minor that some of them don't even have, even though they're, he plays the husband and the father of their children. We literally never hear him speak. I just really enjoy that, personally.

James: 51:07

mean, that, that, that's definitely something I noticed from both the craft and practical magic is that the, the, the male characters are very backgrounded to the female characters, which is, you know, it's quite noticeable.

Lily: 51:17

So, that's kind of the setup, I could go on, but I realise I might be dominating a bit, so James, tell me more about your, uh, your misgivings.

James: 51:26

Well, I,

Lily: 51:27

Or maybe start with what you like. What do you like about the film, anything?

James: 51:31

oh, I mean, come on, the two Central Performances, I'm a huge Sandra Bullock fan for a start. Like, you know, I went to see Demolition Man twice in the 90s just because I thought she was so great in it. So,

Lily: 51:42

she's great in this part, right, I really like seeing her as, as this character.

James: 51:45

Yeah, yeah, I mean, she's great. She's, she's the every, she's the relatable every person, so. Here's Ysandra Bullock as the relatable every person witch. Uh, you know, I think she's great at it. I think she's got excellent chemistry with Nicole Kidman. Who, yep, very sexy witch type. Um, I don't really, I've not really seen many Nicole Kidman films. I guess eyes wide shut, really.

Lily: 52:06

And that was made right after this, which I find quite fascinating.

James: 52:10

Stanley must have watched, uh, must have watched Practical Magic, because he watches everything, and there's no way he would have, he was casting without having watched everything she's been in, so, yeah. But, um, but like, like, my issues with, my issues with Practical Magic are the same issues I have with a craft, which is I just think that, um, My personal view on the director, Griffin Dunn, you know, he's just not the strongest director. I think he can't handle the tonal shifts. I think the cinematography, we don't have somebody like Vilmos Sigmund doing cinematography. Like,

Lily: 52:44

It's a beautiful film. What the f What are you talking

James: 52:47

it's... it's... it's...

Lily: 52:49

issue with the cinematography?

James: 52:51

Well, it's... Okay. I can't do this. It's fine, it's fine. It's just not excellent like Vilmos

Lily: 53:00

love the light in the film. It looks so beautiful. It's so witchy.

James: 53:05

They've shot a lot of Magic Hour and all that kind of stuff. But I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying it's not as good as it could be to satisfy someone like me who's not into that genre just as a standard.

Lily: 53:18

Right, yeah. Fair enough. Okay, fine. I can

James: 53:21

you know, get, get, me, get me, get me Spielberg doing practical magic and he'll have come in, he'll have, he'll have evened out the tonal shifts, he'd have done a bit of work on the character, give me this story, but set it in space and I'll have no problem with it. It could be made just the same. You know, I'm just

Lily: 53:38

Yeah, whereas, whereas,

James: 53:40

astronauts. There we go.

Lily: 53:42

whereas for me, space is such an unappealing, uh, uh, context. Aesthetically, it's such an unappealing place to be setting. Whereas this, being in a New England little town with this beautiful house, and like, confusing interiors. I mean, the house is so, so big. So many interesting rooms everywhere. It's like, how does this even work? But that's magic, that doesn't matter. Um, I just want to talk a bit more about what I mentioned before about this film as part of the queer canon. Because, I, the more I think about what it is I love so much about this film because like I, I get the criticism I do. There is this odd thing in the film where there are lots of moments that do. are a little confusing and you don't even necessarily figure out, you don't, it's only me watching it a million times so I know exactly the point where it, where confusion may be, confusion may be caused because I understand the whole story so well there's that moment early on where, um, uh, Sandra Bullock's character is, is, In depression, basically, because her husband has died and she's spending all her time in bed. Which, by the way, I really love seeing. Because that's a rare thing to see in a film. And that, like, is very relatable. Of course. Like, with a lot, like, it's nice to see actual grieving, someone lying in a bed feeling sad for a while. So I was happy about that. But, there's this odd bit where Jillian comes back, she senses her needing her. And she comes back and spends A few days, basically. It seems like a few days in bed with her, chatting to her and being there for her. And then she just goes. Obviously, I guess she senses that Sally is doing a bit better, so this is the moment. But then, a bit of time passes, Jillian comes back and she says to Sally like, Oh, she, will they like me? Like, she's not met her daughters before. And it's like, so sorry, you, you magicked yourself into this house, spent time with your sister, but never said hi to your It's kind of weird and I feel like that, that's, it's that kind of thing that happens quite a lot in the film where there's a lack of internal logic to what's going, or any logic really, to what's going on and there is this weird tonal shift towards the end when the action is ratcheting up and We're dealing with this evil spirit of an ex boyfriend. Which, even as a sentence, I mean, I really enjoy. But it is weird because you're flip flopping between that and like, this more slower paced love story that's building with Sandra's character. And the switching between the two, I can understand why it, for some people, feels a little bit jarring. For me, it's fine, but I can get it. I get it.

James: 56:19

I Imagine that's what makes it appealing to people who do like it is that that's all part of what what's appealing about it Is that you do have all these different tonal shifts going on. That's part of its charm, isn't it?

Lily: 56:33

Um, I just don't even like clock it because I'm enjoying everything else too much. I think, to be honest, this is a vibes film, this is very much a vibes film. The stuff with the ex and the new guy, no one gives a shit about. None of us care, no woman who watches this movie and loves it cares about the new guy in Sandra's life.

James: 56:55

What are you here for when go see Practical Magic? What do you come to Practical Magic for?

Lily: 56:59

You come for the female relationships in this film, which is why it is part of the queer canon. Because, okay, there are a few things to point out. So Sally and Jillian, they're sisters, but the way that they are filmed a lot of the time, you would think that they are lovers. You see them in bed together, they like, very sapphic in the way it's filmed. And then alongside Sally and Gillian is the amazing aunts, it's Stockard Channing and Diane Weiss.

James: 57:32

took me a real, it took me a moment to realize, oh, it's Stockard Channing as in Rizzo from Greece. I was like, yeah.

Lily: 57:37

yeah, and they're so fantastic in this part, and there is a very strong argument among certain quarters of fans that the two aunts are actually, are not sisters, but are a couple. Yeah, it's a

James: 57:48

Uh,

Lily: 57:48

of like an old generation of quote unquote aunts, And there's this whole thing where, uh. Sally's whole character arc is about her wanting to be normal and not wanting to acknowledge this part of herself. So that really fits with a kind of queer, you know, personal journey, right? And then, and then when she finally admits that she is a witch, it's, it's said that she's like, finally come out. So there's definitely this like, subtext of like, You know, queer identity and finding oneself and even, and even just the very fact of the key part of the plot, the main narrative is around the fact that there's this curse on any man who falls in love with these women. It's like very anti men and, and the interesting thing is they might die. But the risk to them is that, that they will die, these men. And that is obviously what women's biggest fear about men is in general, is this fear of what they might do, of violence. And they're subjected to that in the film, at least, Nicole Kidman's character is. So, there are these layers of subtext around the film. But mainly, that all aside, I've got um, I haven't done quite a lot, but that all aside, the main thing is just seeing the aunts and Nicole and Sandra Bullock just like dancing around the kitchen, drinking tequila, having margaritas, them staying up late eating chocolate. I think the thing that really appeals about this film is the fact that Unlike all these other films we've discussed, and most films about witches, in this film, magic is absolutely not a bad thing. Magic is a good thing. It's a good force. And it also is something that is practiced by women who are completely emancipated. They do what they want. They stay up till midnight and dance around drinking margaritas. They eat chocolate for breakfast. They're completely free, and there aren't men in their lives. So... It definitely is like, like, such a perfect queer film, and just a perfect film, really, for like, any women, and I think that's why, that's why everyone loves it.

James PICKUP: 59:46

Well, I gotta be honest, I didn't realize that there was such a depth of thought around practical magic. So, uh, what do you, so looking back

Lily: 59:56

I know, I'm a bit embarrassed.

James PICKUP: 59:57

What? What, what, what have we learned, Lily? What, looking back on this for you, what, what, what does it, what's it like to see these films that you kind of, a couple of'em, you, you've watched when you were younger, quite often

Lily: 1:00:10

I mean, always, in the case of Practical Magic, always comforting. There's always more that I can take from it. And if anything, I think, um, I very rarely like a movie that, that is... considered a flop. I feel like I am very much at one with the like critical consensus most of the time. So I sort of feel weirdly proud of the fact that I love a film that

James PICKUP: 1:00:32

you occasionally support the underdog,

Lily: 1:00:34

Yeah, yeah, it feels that that feels nice for me. But I think, I mean, my real takeaway, I mean, is that with these films, um, It's just how much Witches is just so aligned with whatever is happening in kind of the political sphere of women, because, you know, these, we ended up, I don't think, we didn't intend to, at least I didn't intend to, James basically handed me over the choice of these films and I just was immediately drawn to doing films Set in the 90s versus anywhere else. I mean, okay, that's because like they're ones I'm more familiar with but I think I Don't know. It just it does kind of attest the fact that This was the third wave of feminism And just like as I was saying at the start of the episode how these films tend to align with these moments in women's history it's the same with these films in the 90s, right? That was like a very interesting time release, a more active time for feminism and, and, and we got out of it some amazing witches movies and, and I'm happy about that.

James PICKUP: 1:01:39

and where, where do you see the future of, uh, witches in movies? Lily, can you, can you look into your crystal ball and, uh, see the future?

Lily: 1:01:48

Well, it's an interesting time right now, because, well, in the re, in more recent times, because obviously we love the Love Witch, and that is an amazing movie in the subject, and there is this web series called Juju, um, that came out a couple of years ago. And I think that is definitely an area. Films about, films that look at witchcraft from the kind of non, Pagan white woman perspective. You know that witchcraft is a part of every single community across the world. So I'd love to see different stories from different places. And yeah, there's so many more stories to tell in this world, James, and I can't wait to see more of them.

James PICKUP: 1:02:29

Absolutely. Well, uh, I think with, uh, with that very well, uh, wrapped up, shall we take a trip to the film pharmacy?

Lily: 1:02:35

Oh, yes, please.

James PICKUP: 1:02:39

Switched it round. Doesn't

Lily: 1:02:40

Okay, so, this week's entry goes something like this. I'm getting older, and I feel when I was younger, I had loads of dreams of success, and my dreams coming true. I don't believe they have. Do you have a film to help me believe my dreams are attainable later in life? I mean, I'm only 44, but it feels later in life.

James PICKUP: 1:02:59

A midlife crisis aversion film. That's a, that's a, another tall order for groovy movies. I feel like we're pushing at the boundaries of what we're capable of here. But we'll try.

Lily: 1:03:08

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I did struggle a bit with this one because I feel like what will inspire you, it's very much dependent on the person, right?

James PICKUP: 1:03:17

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so what I came up with, I thought, well, I'm trying to think of films about like a middle aged or older protagonist who suddenly turns things around or has a late life career shift. And it made me think of Ikiru, the Akira Kurosawa film, that was remade recently, um, with Bill Nighy, which was called Living, which is a wonderful remake, about a Japanese. middle management bureaucrat who finds out that he's, uh, got, I think he's got terminal cancer. And so it him to reassess his life and to re embrace his life. I'm not quite sure if it's going to, uh, hit the spot, but it's the closest I could get to.

Lily: 1:04:00

I thought of gyro dreams of sushi The, uh, the 2013 documentary, it's by a director called David Gelb, and if you haven't seen this already, it follows an 85 year old sushi master called Gyro Ono, and, uh, it's very inspiring because this is a man who's late, Later in life, but he's still absolutely passionate and committed to what he does and and to a like intense degree He's very very specific on how it's prepared how everyone eats it what you do when you come to his restaurant It's quite full on, but I find it and it's it's an inspiring thing to see because it kind of makes it Oh, yeah Like it's all about just finding that thing that will excite you every day forever to the point where you'll still be working at it at age five but also

James PICKUP: 1:04:53

And still excited by it. Yeah.

Lily: 1:04:55

Yeah, but also the film follows his relationships with his sons, and one in particular who struggles to live up to his very exacting standards. He's just not quite as good as his dad, and I actually find that also quite weirdly reassuring because even though Jari's inspiring, it's also like, oh my god, to be that That particular and that, that good, that's quite an unusual thing and so it's almost quite reassuring to be like, okay, yeah, no, he's like another level and his son is like the more normal level and that's, that's good, that's okay too. So there are many levels of reassurance I think that I, I hope will, will reassure but also inspire. I think

James PICKUP: 1:05:34

Well, I hope so. It sounds very interesting. I've not heard of that before.

Lily: 1:05:38

it's on Mubi, I think, not totally sure, but yeah, give it a, I think you would really enjoy it, James, I would strongly recommend it.

James PICKUP: 1:05:46

Great.

Lily: 1:05:46

Alright, well that's it for another episode of Groovy Movies. Thank you so much for listening.

James PICKUP: 1:05:52

Yeah. And if you could, uh, find your way to leaving as review or a like, it all helps get the podcast out to a bigger audience. Thank you.

Lily: 1:05:59

Absolutely. Alright, so we will see you next week.

James PICKUP: 1:06:02

Bye.

Lily: 1:06:03

Bye.