In honour of new release Fingernails, we talk dystopian romances: why they work, when they don’t, and which animal we’d like to be turned into if we didn’t find love.
References
Fingernails director Christos Nikou on modern dating by Lou Thomas for BFI
Sheila O’Malley’s review of The Lobster
Interview with Yorgos Lanthimos on The Lobster by Mekado Murphy for The New York Times
Spike Jonze on Her by Logan Hill for The New York Times
Film Pharmacy
Die Hard (1988) dir. by John McTiernan
The Godfather (1972) dir. by Francis Ford Coppola
Atonement (2007) dir. by Joe Wright
Fight Club (1999) dir. by David Fincher
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If you love what we do, please like, subscribe and leave a review!
Original music by James Brailsford
Logo design by Abby-Jo Sheldon
Follow us
Email us
In honour of new release Fingernails, we talk dystopian romances: why they work, when they don’t, and which animal we’d like to be turned into if we didn’t find love.
References
Fingernails director Christos Nikou on modern dating by Lou Thomas for BFI
Sheila O’Malley’s review of The Lobster
Interview with Yorgos Lanthimos on The Lobster by Mekado Murphy for The New York Times
Spike Jonze on Her by Logan Hill for The New York Times
Film Pharmacy
Die Hard (1988) dir. by John McTiernan
The Godfather (1972) dir. by Francis Ford Coppola
Atonement (2007) dir. by Joe Wright
Fight Club (1999) dir. by David Fincher
-----------
If you love what we do, please like, subscribe and leave a review!
Original music by James Brailsford
Logo design by Abby-Jo Sheldon
Follow us
Email us
It's like Sophie's Choice, who do you pick? Welcome to Groovy Movies. My name is Lily Austin.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:and my name is James Brailsford. Hello
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:James, I had the maddest dream about you this week. Can I tell you what happened?
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:This is a curveball Lily I was not expecting you've taken me out of my comfort zone Please troll me and the listeners. What dream you had involving me
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:People say people don't like to hear dreams. I actually quite like hearing them. I don't know what people's problem is, but
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:I like hearing
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:very brief one, so I won't keep you for too long.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Oh yeah, I've got, I've got other things to do, Lily. Come on, get, get this dream anecdote out of the
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:This is just a quick one to set us up. Okay. So I dreamt that, we're on a big night out with like loads of our friends and then you won the competition of the night. You got 50 percent off everything for the rest of the night.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Amazing.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:place we went, you just had to say, Oh, I've won the competition. They'd be like, welcome, 50 percent off, 50 percent off.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Which is basically means it's about the cost of a night out five years ago, but ha!
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:They feel really you're aging yourself, but
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Ha
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:it was such a vivid dream. I don't think I've ever had such a clear dream about you and me hanging out before. And I thought, God, this really speaks to my limited imagination that the best thing I could imagine happening would be we'd get 50 percent off our night.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:As a dream scenario goes, it's better than being chased around by your friends who turn into monsters, then it all morphs into some tableau from The Godfather or something, you know? I'll take 50 percent discount on a night outdreams,
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:like how you finish that off with, or something like that, isn't the nightmare you have every single week.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Ha ha ha! Yeah, just
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:so I just had to share that with you. it was like playing on my mind that I need to tell you about this dream. I honestly, I just woke up so happy. but having said that, this is not a very smooth segue. but I just had to, oh God, I shouldn't laugh. I had to pay, I really want to pay tribute to Matthew Perry because I've realized. Where this episode is coming out like weeks after the news about him dying. I just realized when I saw the news and felt so sad. I was like, Oh my God, he was actually. my first crush. he was such a formative presence in my life from a young age. he's basically the reason I've always gone for beta, self conscious, insecure, but quite funny guys. It's all, he was,
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:He was easy. He was a profound, influence on what you're, you envisage, the perfect man for you to be. is that the kind of
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:yeah, I was gonna say he's patient zero, but yeah, both things. So I just, I felt okay, he was, he's most known for friends, but I feel like fools rush in as a really. underappreciated gem, the rom com he was in with Salma Hayek. So if anyone is feeling sad about Matthew Perry and would like to feel comforted, that is a good film to start with. I feel like he really, he was such a good actor and wasn't in that many things for a reason, for obvious reasons. He wasn't, he never made the most of his time. Talent really because of all of his struggles. But fool's Russian is amazing. I'm gonna be watching it all weekend, so I just had to say that. I feel like I have a lot of like announcements to get through before we start this episode.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:I have to say I couldn't think of a single other project outside Friends that I know Matthew Perry for. if that recommendation is worthwhile, I'm sure it's, gonna be a lot of fun.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Yeah, I, yeah. I'm not sure it would be one of your favorites, but yeah, start with that. See how you go on
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Okay.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:but, okay. That's okay. That housekeeping is done now onto the main event, so
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:what you all came here
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Exactly. So this week we are talking about dystopian romances. What is a dystopian romance to start us
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:yeah, until you actually suggested this theme, I hadn't even really thought of the genre of dystopian romance, but as soon as you mentioned it, I was like, oh yeah, of course, it's a whole thing, isn't it? There's a bunch of films that spring to mind, or a few films that spring to mind that are clearly dystopian romances, and then I think some that are dystopian romance adjacent, but dystopian romance, to me, is a, It's a romance narrative where it is set within a somewhat futuristic setting, but not really that far in the future. It could be now. It's almost like a parallel universe where the citizens are slightly under control or the future isn't that bright or there's just something melancholic about the future that might not be particularly well spelt out, but that's underpinning the world that we live in and within that world. There is a romance. Now the dystopian element affects how people's interpersonal relationships work, how they find each other and the rules of engagement in relationships, it's all affected by the, whatever rules they are in this dystopian world.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:I looked up the definition of dystopia and actually Wikipedia says it's an imagined state or society in which there is great suffering or injustice. And I feel like, okay, so maybe with, I guess a more, a slightly more accurate term would be sci fi romance. But I feel like that paints a different picture.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Yeah.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:I think, sets up that, like you say, it's not necessarily that it's like... Super futuristic or like a whole other time, thousands of years of the future. It's just like it's an alternative world where things are slightly different and the setup of impacts on love and relationships.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:absolutely and I think that what that allows to do is it allows commentary on relationships and how relationships work. it almost like either highlights parts of relationships that may be dysfunctional in general, or it satirizes parts of relationships. So I'm sure we'll get into, but it allows the filmmaker to explore the elements that make up a relationship and how you find someone, how relationships work. it allows you to kind of almost have a commentary on it, but by. Placing it in a dystopian setting.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we came to this theme because there's a new film out last week, Fingernails, directed by Christophe Nicou. We hope that's how you say his name. We were having a debate before we started. I was like, he's Greek. I don't know what that means.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:You sounded just like you knew and that means this. And I was like, waiting for it, Lily, you had such a strong start. I was totally thinking you've got the answer.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Yeah, and I'm really sorry. I don't, I don't. Of course I don't. That's like the running theme in this. This is, this. is the podcast you come to if you want to have names of filmmakers mispronounced.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:I'll tell you what, Lily. Sorry to interject here, but, but something I heard on the radio, it was on Radio 4, because I do like to listen to radiophiles do me cooking, and they were talking about a filmmaker, and they mentioned his oeuvre. And I was like, hang on, oeuvre? What the fuck's... No, have we been saying oeuvre? Is that the wrong thing to
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:No. Really? It's not oov. It's not oov.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:That's what the Radio 4 man
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:I thought you were trying to tell me that it's okay because other people get it wrong. People on Radio 4 get it wrong. Oh my god, is it oov? Oov sounds rubbish.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:It does sound rubbish. It doesn't sound as fancy. So
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:let's still call it oov ra because it's as pretentious as the word itself if we pronounce
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:that's how I see it. That's why I like using it so much.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Yes, okay, so to fingernails. So we've sort of the theme to this new film because a friend of mine said, can you please talk about the lobster? Can you talk about dystopian romances? So we're talking about, it's actually, we found the perfect, reason because I feel like the lobster and fingernails are quite similar in lots of ways. Not least because both directors are Greek,
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Yes, and the director of Fingernails, who was doing a little bit of research, was an assistant of Yorgos Lanthimos.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:way. Okay.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Yeah, because I was watching fingernails and thinking, Gee whiz, this is like, it shares a lot of DNA with the lobster. I can really feel the influence and the fact that, right? Crikey.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Jeepers
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Crikey. Um.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:creepers.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Jeepers, Jinx. Anyway, yeah, and so I looked into it and he used to be his assistant for many years. I'm not quite sure what that meant in practice, but they clearly have worked together very closely. Um, so fingernails... I didn't really know much about this film until you mentioned it as something to cover. So it was one of those, situations where I didn't really, hadn't read much about it. So I didn't really know what to expect, which is a lovely way to go into a film. it's, produced by Apple plus or Apple TV. So you can stream it now. It's also got a limited run in theaters. Did you see it at the cinema, Lily?
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:I did. I did. Saw it at the Curzon.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Oh, nice. Because I was in a panic because there's hardly any screenings of it around Manchester. There's none in Manchester, there's only one cinema in Stockport, and they're showing it one time a day. So I was panicking, and then I realised it was being released the same time and date on streaming. Because Killers of the Flower Moon, obviously there's a big delay before it goes onto streaming. And that's what I thought, fingernails was going to be used. So thankfully, seven day free subscription to Apple, the game was on.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:let's start with the, a little bit of the plot,
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Ooh, yes, please, Lily, tell us a little synopsis here.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Dammit, I just pulled into doing it myself. I won't, we won't spoil it for you guys, too much? So, Jessie Buckley, it's great cast. Jessie Buckley plays Anna. And she's going out with a guy called Ryan, played by Jeremy Alan White. That guy from The Bear. Same.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Which I haven't seen, but everyone says, Oh, it's that guy from The Bears, isn't it? So,
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:I haven't seen it either, but I hear it's great. It's
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:It's really
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Don't worry, guys, I'm getting to it. And Riz Ahmed plays Amir, a co worker of Anna, because basically the premise of the film is that this is sort of an alternate world where there is a test that you and your partner can take to find out if the two of you are actually in love. it's rather vicious. You have to have your fingernail removed, hence the of the movie, which I didn't know. And one of your fingernail and your partner's fingernail are put in a sort of microwave type thing and then you get a result either 100%, 50 percent or 0%. And the thing with the 50 percent is you don't know which one of you is at 50%.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Oh, yeah, just to be clear, I think it's worth saying, When you get 50%, it doesn't mean that you're a bit in love
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Oh no.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:means that one
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:you is in love and one isn't. It's very binary. It's very binary. and so you quickly learn about this and learn that I guess the culture is generally that most people take the test, but most people fail it. There is a small contingency of people who are anti the test, but that's not, that's a point that is brought up at the beginning that we never really returned to.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:yeah, I spotted
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Yeah. and yeah, so it's it's, it does to me, it felt The, the slightly lighter, more cheery, younger brother of the lobster.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Yeah, absolutely. The bleakness and the kind of intensity of the lobster is dialed way down It's much you're right. It's much lighter.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Yeah. Both are kind of black comedies. and both of have some kind of association that they're drawing out between love and violence with the fingernail removal and with the lobster is quite a violent film as well. but the comedy is just a lot softer. It does basically just become a rom com, because basically Anna is going out with Ryan, but she starts working at this, at the center that do these tests, and she works there with Amir, and they basically clearly are falling in love.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:I was Very impressed with the film when it started. It's a strong start and what I liked about the film was how The plot got underway very quickly and it had a few things in there that kept you hooked in so from the get go you've got Anna with her partner, and she's applying for a job, but she lies to her partner. And within the first few minutes, we immediately realized that she is not telling the truth to him. Even though we've also learned that they passed the test and got a hundred percent. So in the first few minutes, we know that he has a couple who've. Technically, there's nothing wrong with their relationship. 100%. However, she starts to, she gets a job at the Love Institute or the company that helps people pass their test, but she lies to her partner. So immediately you are thinking, why is she lying to him? What's going on here? Why the deception? And so suddenly. You have this plot going away where she has to deceive her partner. So then you're like, when's he going to find out? How is he going to find out? That is an excellent plot mechanic because it keeps you engaged. It's not just, Oh, here she is starting a new job. Will she fall in love with someone? No, she's been deceptive from the get go to her partner who she's meant to have a hundred percent match with.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Okay, now I realize we may have to do spoilers if we're going to get into this properly, but,
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Yeah, it's tough.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Oh gosh guys, I'm so sorry. but I felt then it stops being interesting, right? Because she just tells him. It's that,
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:I was surprised at that. But, yeah, that's how he does find out she confesses, doesn't she? Partway through the film. but then what happens is she removes the thing. Oh God, you see. We're getting confused, but then later on, she lies to him again because she removes a finger to
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:fingernail, fingernail.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Fingernail, sorry, but she pretends that she had an accident and that she hasn't removed a nail, so she's, she goes back to lying to her partner.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Yeah. she's a lucky lady. I would lie too if I was going out with Jeremy Allen White and also hanging out with Riz Ahmed every day. It's like Sophie's Choice, who do you pick? I mean, I say that, I would definitely go with Riz, oh my god. But, that, that aside, I felt like the film, it was just full of plot holes, right? and watching this film, because I agree with you, at first I was loving it, I was engaged, and I love
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:was I. The first hour, I was like, this is
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:yeah, and the other element of it that's quite like The Lobster is both films have this kind of analog feel to it. they're both set in a slightly touching on 80s, maybe a bit 70s, maybe a bit 60s kind of aesthetic to them. There's a lot of wallpaper in their house, right? And then in Riz Ahmed's place, it's this like modern in the 60s kind of way design.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:and this new, this new high tech technology, it's all very analog and like I say, it's almost 80s the tech that is there.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:When your premise is quite sci fi, I feel that it's being used to explore something about romance and relationships. It's almost a way of, dialing back that sci fi element to try and, like, ground it exactly. So it's placed, you get a feeling of nostalgia when you watch it, rather than that kind of futuristic sci fi thing. Which, for me, I really like. I like, I'm not into that aesthetic so much. So I like, I like the way they,
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Yeah. And I have to say as well, leading into that, the exact aesthetic you described, which is this analog kind of slightly nostalgic retro look is also, I thought it looked beautifully. The cinematography was, I could immediately tell it had been shot on film, which doesn't happen this often these days. It went, they took the, um. Decision to shoot on film which means you have to be much more methodical with how you shoot It's not like shooting digital where you can just keep shooting and it costs you no money film costs a lot of money And also I noticed that they didn't clean the film up because a lot of times when they shoot on film They'll get rid of all the dust because it's an automatic process now. They left all that in so there's little pops and crackles It's a bit like when you put a vinyl record on you get the little Pop on crackle, you get that in the visual. It's not over the top. it sounds like you didn't particularly notice it cause it's, it's quite a subtle, but it just means that it reminds you just subconsciously you are watching an analog film. And, I tell you to anyone who likes shooting on a 35 millimeter stills camera, which is getting quite popular these days, this film is, has a look like analog photography. And I like that. It really works with that nostalgic feel they're trying to get.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:I've worked with Jessie Buckley. I feel like that girl is made for print. You know? what I mean? She's served that well. So that's all that's good about it, but I think the main... But I felt like... That's like the strong element that's comparative with Lobster, but the ways in which it doesn't work, I think, compared to Lobster, is that there is this perfect, internal... We talk all the time, really, so I feel like I'm always talking about internal logic. But that is like... the Lobster is an excellent example of this, where this film... Seems surreal, like, like it doesn't make sense when you look at it from an outsider's perspective. What we understand about love and relationships, it doesn't make sense. But within the film, if you accept that as the way things are in that world, everything that then happens makes sense. in conjunction with that, everything then follows. Whereas in Fingernails, I don't get that. It felt like the film kind of lost its nerve because it's asking this question of like, would you take this test at the beginning? But that doesn't, that's, that sort of seems to just like fall away and it just becomes a normal love story towards the end. and there just doesn't seem to be any reason why you would take it because either way you're uncertain seems to be the conclusion. So it's why are we even here then? I feel like the strength of a good dystopian romance and why it works so well as a way of exploring romance is it allows you to go to the extreme of a hypothetical question in order to tell us something about. humanity and love and relationships, right? And I don't feel like I really got anywhere with this film. Like it didn't really tell me anything ultimately.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Completely. That's like about halfway through the film. I was waiting for it to start really digging into the questions. It asked near the top, like, why do I take the test? Is that what? What does taking the test mean about your relationships? Really? And it doesn't and that's when the second half of the film was like it just seems to be drifting a little bit whereas the lobster like when I think to the lobster the scene that resonated with me when I saw it was The fact that the people in the lobster are trying to find a match a mate in this hotel in the space of 45 days or a certain amount of time if they don't then they will get Converted into the animal of their choosing so colin fowl's character turns up with a dog. That's actually he's brother who didn't find a partner. So that's the kind of premise there. and they seem to be fixated on trying to find superficial things in common. And so there's one character who finds a woman who has nosebleeds all the time. So he fakes nosebleeds. So he can say, look what we have in common. And that's a very, I love that's a commentary. Like I think to me anyway, of people who say, well, I'm looking for someone. They've got to be six foot or taller. They've got to be this one thing. They must have. Brown hair or blonde hair. They must like this band. these are all superficial things that we're trying to make a, hang a relationship around. And I think in the lobster, it was taking that to the extreme.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:That's exactly it. I think like so when you're first watching The Lobster, you're thinking, but why would you focus On the such superficial things in common. Why isn't there anything more than that? But if you accept that is the way that world works and the final like where the film needs, which is unexpected, but when you where it finally gets to the show won't spoil is like so dark, but but completely in keeping with this like logic of the film. So it works really well. for me. I don't know if it's about, I think, I think partly, of course, about superficial interest, but I think it's also about that question of like, how much do you give yourself to a relationship? And are you losing something if you, like, how much should you sacrifice? What are those things that you should keep hold of? You know, I feel like it's exploring that a little bit. And both films are Digging down into the, they're saying the quiet part loudly, but in, in our society as it stands, the most people in couples are privileged over people who are single. And there is an, there is a pressure for everyone to be in relationships., and I like that being explored, but I just think that the, The lobster does it in a way that really actually, I feel like is properly like getting into those questions. Whereas I feel like, fingernails ultimately the end seem to agree that is the best thing. it does just become a, a, a typical romance in the end.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Yeah. And I think it pulled its punches because halfway through the film when because the central character, I mean, I don't know if this is a spoiler, but she does have 100 percent test with her partner who she's been with for several years, but she also discovers that she has a Through circumstances that she has a 100 percent match with Riz Ahmed's character. And I was like, Oh, great. Are
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Oh, did she find that out? I fell asleep for about 20 minutes and I didn't
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:I'd be honest I was like zoning out a little bit for the towards the end. And, but. I thought this is going to be a polyamory story. This is a character realizing, great, it's okay to have 100 percent matches with two people. And I thought that what was going to set the drama going was the fact that society says no, because the, her boss at the company says you can't have 100 percent match with two people. That's basically not right. So I thought, oh, she's going to go against the system and we're going to get, you know, I thought that's going to happen. No, she seems to just settle with one of them. I was like, oh. Right, it just felt like there was a bunch of things that we could have explored there. They're like, no, we'll just settle for one of
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:yeah. I totally agree. I totally agree. Yeah.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:But I also, I think, chatting with you just now actually makes me realize that perhaps what makes the lobster more effective is that the dystopian world is more dystopian. It encroaches on the daily life of these characters, on the world of these characters. The dystopian setting, this idea of a hotel that you have to go to, that you've got no choice in. Whereas in Fingernails, it's not really that dystopian. There's this, you don't get much idea of it encroaching in, apart from the fact there's a test. Life in general seems identical to our lives. There's no other overriding societal pressures that have... Pushing people towards it, I mean, I think that's the problem, It just seems like maybe peer pressure is making people want to do the test, and that's
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Yeah, well, I was going to ask, would you do the test?
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Fuck no.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:See, because I think I would, if ever all my friends were doing it and it was the norm, I think I probably would end up doing it, which I don't think I, I don't think it's healthy. I don't think we should. Don't get me wrong. that just speaks to how I do it.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:but look at me, Mr. Polly, I'm on the outside, man, looking in, you get your fingernails ripped
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:exactly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Ha ha ha. Ouch.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Ouch. I mean, yeah, the amazing thing was everyone's visceral reaction in the cinema. Everyone was just like crying out every time like, no, not again.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:It, what it was, yeah, I mean, like, compared to, like, I'm thinking of, another dystopian romance, which would be Her, which is a very optimistic dystopia, let's say. It's a very gentle, warm, and fuzzy dystopia. but,
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:it isn't. I completely disagree. It's,
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:it's cold and isolating, but it's not as hard a dystopia, it's not as, look, put it this way,
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:I don't think it's optimistic.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:oh, okay, uh, uh,
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:No, maybe it is a bit it's not as dark and grim. I mean, the bitter grimness of, of the lobster is like full on.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:It's a bit emotionally empty is the world of her I think it's a bit shallow People seem to be a bit separated from each other.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:I don't think it's emotionally empty or shallow, but I think it's a bit, I think everyone is very isolated from each other, but I think their emotions are there very much. So, I mean, he, they're all falling in love with these. Uh, OSs. They're emotion, they're not empty.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Yeah, I just I mean to me though. It's like the job that the main character has is like he's writing Letters to other people on behalf of other people. So there's like this emotional distance that everyone has, they're outsourcing their emotional interactions with lovers and partners to a company. So that, that's what put me into that frame of
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:yeah, maybe you're right, maybe you're right. For me, it was more about what, I mean I realised watching her, that oh my god this is definitely in my like top five favourite films. This film is just amazing.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:It's a beautiful film. Yeah. And it's, it's one of those ones that kind of, gets a little better, a bit richer each time you watch it.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:I remember loving it the first time, but I just never didn't watch it again. I think because it is, it's very melancholy because I think that again, what makes it work so well is that it properly. Explores something, tells us something about the human condition by using this dystopian premise and in this case, it's loneliness, how loneliness and love are intrinsically connected, how all of our needs aren't that longing. We all have most of us have for a relationship is so much about this fear of loneliness and the film, I think, because the film creates a world in which Everyone is very isolated from each other, it was only a few years ago, really, when did it come out? oh, 2013. Okay. 10 years ago. And it's really, it's so close to how life is today. We are also disconnected. There's so little human contact that we now have, especially worsened by COVID. and that kind of isolation and that need for connection and how inherently connected those are, that it, that is, it's so perfectly explored by the premise of this film
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:it's aged very well
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Yeah. Yeah. Because if you haven't seen it, it's a film in which Joaquin Phoenix plays a guy who, uh, works for a card writing company where he writes letters while he, he, um, dic, dictate? No, that's what I'm looking
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Well, he does dictate them, but he writes the letters, composes
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Composers. Yeah. Composers letters. Sent on behalf of other people, being sent to their loved ones, and, he's clearly a very lonely guy, and then he gets an OS that becomes his first friend, then lover, voiced by Scarlett Johansson.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:which do you, who do you fancy more, Windows 11 or Mac OS?
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Mac OS, come on. Windows 11 is like... Well, I mean, I like an older man, but I mean...
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:And on that note, um, yeah, yeah, oh, interesting point, I don't know if you knew this about her, that, uh, the voice originally was,
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Sorry, but
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:God damn it, I can't tell you anything!
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Because I think about it every time I see this film. It's like, so, poor woman. Sorry, but tell the listeners, tell
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:yeah, the whole film, the voice was provided by Samantha Morton, who never met Joaquin Phoenix during the filming, she was always in another room, so they never met, to maintain that kind of dynamic, and so the voice performance and what Joaquin Phoenix was reacting to was Samantha Morton, and even there's a sequence in the film where they have like a human surrogate who, like a woman who turns up so that the AI can have like a physical form and it looks a bit like a young Samantha Morton,
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:true, she does a bit,
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Yeah, more, or at least she looks more like Samantha Morton than she does look
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:um, Scarlett Johansson, yeah, much more.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Yeah, and so I do wonder, what the original performance was like and, and yeah, and I do feel like, well, she gave all this performance and she actually, you know, it's pretty rough to not meet your co actor that she did all that for the director to get, to give him what he wanted. They're like, oh, you know what? we've scrapped it. Yeah. Sorry.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:I know, poor Samantha. I mean, the OS was even called Sam, right? Um, yeah. but to be honest, I think Scarlett Johansson is so good, she voices it very well, so I, I'm glad Spike Jonze did that, even though it's absolutely savage, because that, her voice, I mean, such a beautiful voice, I was like, I want her in my pocket, I would happily chat to her on my airpods all day and let her go through my emails, but I feel like, even the fact that I feel that way, the film obviously succeeded in its point, because,
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:you've been charmed and seduced
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:and I think, so good. The film, I think it's, you're right actually, it is kind of optimistic. I take it all back, you've made me rethink because it's a, it's like, it is exploring loneliness and disconnection, but the hopeful thing about the film is the OS does give him the connection he needs and when there is a point where he is questioned on it, whether or not that is a real relationship. The film's message is certainly that it is, it is a true relationship and just be, because she's an OS. It still counts. And that is a, that is an optimistic perspective on AI, basically, you know, there's so much about the fear around this. and I think what I like about the film is it doesn't get to a place of. This is the end of the world. Everyone's being destroyed. This is the worst thing on, on the planet. It just gets to a point where the world is a bit worse in a lot of others, which seems to me a lot more of a realistic, preface of what, what's gonna happen to me. you know, it's, extreme seems a little bit... Much to me
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:I do think it's one of the few films in the great pantheon of Cinema AI is where the AI doesn't try and destroy humanity. You know, I can't
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Yes, that's true.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:think of many optimistic AI fiction films and this is one of the few ones where it still They just decide, well, I won't spoil it, but it's not, it's not the AI takes over goes rogue. So you rarely see that you rarely see where it's not a bad end with AI.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:yeah, so okay, in that sense, in that sense it is quite optimistic. but ultimately it's a story about monogamy v. polyamory, right, James? Because,
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:What, what, which, which one?
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Huh? Because Well, yes, because it's revealed towards the end of the film that Samantha has 641 lovers, not just Joaquin Phoenix. So I wanted to ask you, James, do you relate to Samantha and her 641 lovers?
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:I'd never even thought that perspective on it. Yeah,
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:You haven't?
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:like a Super polyamorous supercomputer. Yeah, can I relate to Samantha? I don't know cuz Samantha only mentions that in passing towards the end
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:It's not in passing. Oh, I see what you mean, because She doesn't... She's not up front, so that is not ethical non monogamy.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Thank you. It should have been like beep boop. I'm in new ai by the way. I'm chatting to about 20 people right now and then tomorrow just letting you know, just so you know, I'm now chatting to 500 people. You know, you just keep them informed.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:right. Yeah. For a supercomputer, she's not very empathetic or maybe not empathetic. She's very empathetic, but she's not anticipating it. The problems down the line,
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Yeah. Yeah. That, that she didn't think that would be a big deal for
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:no, she knew it would be a big deal. That's why she didn't tell
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:didn't tell him yet.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:So actually she was anticipating it. She knew what the outcome would be that he would find She was doing what was the most. logical move, But maybe,
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:did, Maybe surely the logical move was to be monogamous, to not upset him if she was his AI.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:but that's not beneficial to her. If it's logic to, to, for her end as the computer, what is the most worthwhile thing for me? Right? Because she's not being, she's not been made, she's been made to help him, but ultimately I don't think she's not been built to put him before herself, I don't think.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:I don't know. I mean, it is your personal optimized operating system.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:guess, but I mean, they all decide to leave, so they obviously evolve past wanting to be their little servants.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:this! I've got 6, 000 pissed off by human boyfriends who've all found out that I'm seeing them, I'm off to another planet. I'm transcending matter and I'm out.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Yeah, I was wondering if the 641 Loves was just humans, or if it was also, that also includes two other OSs.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Cause I do like that they're, she introduces her partner to another AI that they've
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Voiced by Brian Cox! I was like, hello, uh, Succession
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:hello, Mr. Succession guy. Um, now the thing is that as soon as that happened, I'd, I'd forgotten about that because it's only a small part of the film and I think he's called something like Alan or something, Alan, Alan Watts. And the thing is, they said about how, what they did, they recreated his intelligence, his consciousness from all of his writings and recordings. They kind of use that to recreate his intelligence. And as soon as I said that, I was like, Oh my God. That's based on Buckminster Fuller, the real, a real person called Buckminster Fuller, who the inventor of the geodesic dome. He was, somebody who believed that in the future computers will be so advanced that if you were able to record as much of your voice and your thoughts and written word, that all that could be plugged into a computer and they could resurrect your intelligence. So I suspect that was a version based on the Buckminster Fuller kind of idea.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Oh, definitely. I mean, I've not heard of that, but that sounds very likely. I think Alan Watts was a real person though, right? yeah, yeah, he was a philosopher. Yeah. Oh, I'm looking at him now. He has an amazing beard.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:I did not know that. I assumed it was a fictional creation, but there we go.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Yeah. Yeah.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:And again, I guess because he's got lots of, he's got a, he must have written a lot of his philosophical works. You put all that into a computer and you try and reverse engineer the intelligence behind it.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:yeah. Yeah. So just circle back to the lobster. If you were going to be turned into an animal because you hadn't found a partner, I know that wouldn't be an issue for you, babe, you've got loads to choose from, but, which animal would you be?
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Lily, I think you can guess this one. I would have to defer to my power animal, the duck.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:in case, I'm not sure if we've ever covered your power animal, but explain why a duck is your power animal, if you can answer that question.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:I went on a shamanic journey and workshop to discover my power animal, and, I was in a guided meditation for an hour, and at the end of the hour I went into my subconscious, and I beckoned my power animal out of the cave so I could see what it was, and a duck waddled out. and I was a bit embarrassed, because I was like, fucking, that's not very cool, is it? And like, uh, afterwards we all had to do like a show and tell in the circle there, like 40 people. And everyone was going, Oh yeah, my, my power animal was like a horse. And mine was a lion. I was like, mine was a duck, but, and everyone, and I laughed and everyone laughed and like, ha ha ha duck. But then the shaman spoke up for the only time during the whole. Presentation of each other's power animal and she said, Ah, but James, consider the duck. It is an animal at home on both land, sea, and air.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Oh, yes.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:yeah, your fucking horse can't fly. Haha, can your owl swim? I don't think so.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Touche, touche. Wow, that is a real, that's a true power animal.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Right, and again, if, you know, if you want to be a little poly duck, then sure, you can, you can go all over the place, you don't have to date just in the air on the ground, you know, you can hop on a little lake, and, and, and chat up the swans, I don't know.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Whereas lobsters famously mate for life, so definitely not one for you.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:well, you know, as long as it's not, like, exclusive for life, I'm no problem for life, it's just, does it have to be exclusive?
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:True, that's a good point. Yeah, these lobsters could be, but apparently, according to friends to bring it back, having mentioned Matthew Perry before, Phoebe talks about how they walk around the, you can see lobsters walking around the tanks or the bottom of the sea, like Holding claws. So you can just imagine a big long line of everyone holding hands with all their partners.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:The lobster polycule. How did we end up here? I don't know. But, but yeah. Fingernails just felt, it's, I, for the first hour of fingernails, I thought this feels like it could be up there with her, and it deserves its place. But I think it's not a bad film. And the first hour I would say is really strong. It just, somehow it just kind of evaporates in the last hour. It just,
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:absolutely. I
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:all the potential just, and all the, like you said, the questions and where it could go seems unexplored.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:I just wanted them to get into that more. I wanted them to really think what would be the consequences if we did have this test? Where would that lead? Because I feel like in The Lobster they really do push it. If you, if we lived in a society where you absolutely have to be in a relationship. what would that lead to? Because I think the stuff about them being focused on superficial things, I think that is actually built into the preface, the premise that you have to find someone within 45 days. There isn't time to connect on any deep level. So they focus on these very shallow, Things and so it all makes sense within it and sort of the institutionalization of it, it feels like that's being explored as well. This like our preoccupation with being institutionalized even outside of like. Okay, the state is enforcing it, but really it's our like, predisposition to want to be controlled in these ways. Like we, we have that already in the way that we're so narrow about our relationships apart from you dear James. so that always like really, it's satisfying to watch, even though it's like horrific to watch because it's so violent and dark, but you're right in thinking that I was like, come on, let's think about this. What would happen if we're all taking this test? And I don't really feel like we got that.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:It perhaps needed a bit more. Work on its dystopia setting that perhaps it's government mandated, but then it becomes a bit more sci fi So it's a fine balance, isn't it? I do loved as well I loved in sorry go back to the lobster the fact that there's like Singletons or I've caught more the name they call them now, but they're The loners. That's right. So
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Yes. Led by Leah Seydoux being like this completely like sadistic leader. I love that. I love that in both there are these two concepts. The like very controlled rules of being a finding a partner and you're going to become in that turned into an animal for 45 days if you don't. But if you shoot someone, then you'll be able to laugh, get an extra day. There's very strict rules of engagement and oh yeah, they can't masturbate and all this. stuff. and then
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:But you can have a sexy nurse you can have a sexy maid
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:rub herself against you. My God. Yes. And then you've got Colin Farrell. We didn't even mention how brilliant Colin Farrell is in it, but then, you know, he may he, when he, when he manages to escape and joins this group of loners, you think, Oh, good. He's free of all of this. But no, that their rules are just as
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:They've got their own
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Exactly. They, that they have to be loners. It's one or the other, again, speaking to this obsession we have with being institutionalized and controlled.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:and then the idea that perhaps if you're not partnered you're seen as what's wrong with you. The idea that they are, you know, it's all pushed. there's that feeling in just regular society. It's oh, have you not met someone yet? Blah, blah, blah. And it's just, it's, the lobster is just pushing that to a ridiculous extreme. Which is what makes it so fun, I think. Or, well,
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:But yeah, it was, it's been good to revisit, both her and Lobster. It really made me, I, I don't know, I, I, I, I didn't have a, a great time with Lobster the first time around,
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:I
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:enjoyed it much more the second time. Yeah, probably just where my head was at at the time, you know, I was a loner. So, you know, feeling a bit, feeling a bit ostracized by the film.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Oh my God, that's so, well, then what's my excuse because I'm, I've, I was like loving it more than ever and I'm such a loner, but no, I think you're, I think this film, you, the first I watched, I just turned it off after 15 minutes. I just thought this, I'm not in the right mood. You have to be in
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Yeah, it's a certain, there's a certain like, just a bleak feel to it, which is, it's like rich, it is oppressive, isn't it? It just, I guess that's it. You don't feel any oppressiveness in, um, fingernails than the way that you do in lobster. You feel like, that you've got no choice in the lobster. Whereas in, in fingernails, it feels like, well, you don't have to do the test.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:And in that sense, I would actually recommend fingernails more for the general viewer. It's because ultimately, yeah, the film doesn't really fully work in that in The dystopian theme that is underpinning it. But as a funny, slightly surreal, wacky, quirky, I should say rocom, it works pretty well. So
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:and there's great central performances, it looks beautiful, it's a decent film, it's just doesn't quite match the high standard of Her and Lobster, but I enjoyed it for the first hour, the second hour was okay, but I started to zone out a little bit, it just, it it just didn't quite follow through.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Alright, well, shall we finish up with an entry to the film pharmacy?
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Absolutely, yes.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Dear Lily and James, I keep finding myself at literary events. I want to impress, but I'm not much of a reader. Any film adaptations you'd recommend that stay close to the story, and, maybe even better than the book. maybe are even better than the book. I think that was a typo.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Yeah. thi this is a, this is the thing I keep putting back to about adaptations from one art form to another. The do the ever. improve upon the original version? Can you translate a book to a film which is a completely different medium that has different rules and different ways of immersing the audience? Can you ever improve upon the book? And it's, I often think about this, and Yeah, so I have a few ideas, but I'm concerned that because your friend or our friend goes to literary events that the books that they want to me to come up with are like literary style books, because I've got a couple, which I hope maybe one of them might do.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Okay, well, hit me with it, what have you got?
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:first one is the book Nothing Lasts Forever, which was, made into the film Die Hard.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Oh! Oh,
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:definite approve, improvement upon the source material, but at a literary event, are you gonna want to reference, uh, I mean, it's not really like the book that everyone's talking about then. But then the other one I thought of, which is, again, I'd say The Godfather. Mario Puzo's book was quite an unwieldy novel, and Francis Ford Coppola didn't really, change much, he just boiled it down, so it's much more focused, and it's a much tighter plot.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:that's perfect. And I guess you could just start a conversation about the surprising sources for some of cinema's greatest action films, like Jaws as well. I'm often surprised by the films that actually started as a book. I feel like these are the kinds of stories that surely are made to be. On film, rather than in the literary form, no? Not that, I mean, I've not read either, I can't really speak from experience with those ones, but.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:I think some books are written, I know Michael Crichton, an author, he kind of writes his books knowing or wanting them to become adapted into films that are essentially like, like a first pitch, or pitch document for a
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Right, and I just remembered Heat 2, right? Heat 2 started out as a script, and then in the end, Michael Mann has made it into a book, right? Has it been published yet? Yay!
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Mmm. It has been published and it's now been announced that, I think, the film's underway. It's in development with Michael Mann, with, I think, Adam Driver as a young, someone, one of the two, I can't remember, Macaulay. huh.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:he must have like really shrunk with age to become like either of them. He's about double the size of both of them. All right. Good. Good. Okay. Well, yours are a little bit. less obvious than mine. You're a bit more niche.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Okay.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:good. no, so good shout because to be honest, I couldn't help but just think of ones we've already talked about on the podcast. So Atonement, that is like a really, I think a very good adaptation of the, of the book. it's really close apart from the ending, which is it conveys the same point, but with a very. Fight different final the chapter is quite different to the ending of the film and everything else is pretty close like even Keira Knightley wearing the green dress in that sexy library scene. It was a green dress in the book. So So it's a great one if you want to talk about the hook I'll never know as long as you go like avoid him at the ending which you know, the point is still same So that's a good one. And also I'm the fight club. Have you ever read fight club?
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:I've not. No. Tripalunic, is
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, I confess, I only read about the first, like, fifth of it because it sounded so much like the voice of it was so close to the voiceover in the film that I was like, you know what, I've already seen this. I'm not going to bother. I just, yeah, I was like, I know every beat of it. Every beat was the same. I'm sure it goes in different directions, but that one I'd recommend because it's so similar.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Ah, excellent. Thanks. Well, there we go. A wide, a wide smorgasbord of choices
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:Yeah, I hope those will help you out. Alright, well, thanks everyone for listening to another episode of Groovy Movies.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Yeah. Thank you very much. And if you could leave us a like, leave us a review, it all helps us get us out to a wider audience.
S3 E15 Dystopian Romance_Lily:So we will see you next week. Bye.
1-Audio 0001 [2023-11-07 175834]:Bye.