May December and the blacklist we want to be on

Aesthetica short film festival, the Hollywood blacklist, and one of its scripts, Todd Haynes’ new movie May December, are all up for discussion this week. Expect sweeping generalisations about short films and a tabloid-esque compare-and-contrast between May December and the real-life scandal that inspired it.

References
Aesthetica Short Film Festival
New York 81 (short 2022) dir. by Jannicke Systad Jacobsen
Mary Kay Letourneau and Vili Fualaau on Barbara Walters
John Lahr’s piece on Todd Haynes for The New Yorker
Adam White’s interview with Todd Haynes for The Independent
The Black List

Film Pharmacy
Inside Llewyn Davis (2013) dir. by Joel and Ethan Coen
Whiplash (2014) dir. by Damien Chazelle
Jodorowsky’s Dune (2013) dir. by Frank Pavich
Moonage Daydream (2022) dir. by Brett Morgen
Lady Boss: The Jackie Collins Story (2021) dir. by Laura Fairrie

Gimme Three - A Series For Cinephiles

Gimme Three is a love letter cinema. 3 films. 1 Theme. A hell of a lot of fun!

Listen on: Apple Podcasts   Spotify

-----------
If you love what we do, please like, subscribe and leave a review!

Original music by James Brailsford
Logo design by Abby-Jo Sheldon

Follow us
Email us

Transcript

James: 0:00

I've finally popped my Todd Haynes cherry.

Lily: 0:06

I'm so happy to be having this conversation. Okay. Welcome to Groovy Movies. Welcome to Groovy Movies. My name is Lily Austin.

James: 0:15

And my name's James Brailsford, hello!

Lily: 0:18

And this week on the podcast, we are talking about new release. May, December. Love, Todd Haynes, the director. I'm so very excited to have this conversation. but before we get to that, we thought we'd tell you about our weekend, our little groovy movies. What's the word called? Field trip! Yes, IRL meetup, field trip, out in the real world. James, what did we do last weekend?

James: 0:44

we both went to the Aesthetica Film Festival in York, which I'd never really heard of before, until you mentioned it to me, or no, actually, a film that I worked on a couple of years ago was screening in there, and so I think that's how I heard about it, but I didn't really know much about the festival, but turning up to York, um, last weekend, it's a big deal.

Lily: 1:04

Yeah, it was a funny coincidence because I had looked into it last year and wanted to go. And then when I mentioned it to you, you're like, oh, as it happens, I've got a film I worked on happens to be in the festival. So we, we went to York, went to festival and yeah, it's a big deal. There are like loads of screenings,

James: 1:24

Yeah, it had a real, there was quite a buzzy atmosphere. Lots of stuff going on. I mean, the talks looked great. We went to a few ourselves, but because we weren't there for the full length of the festival. Earlier in the week there was, I think, Industrial Light and Magic. We're talking about visual effects. There was a lot of stuff that seemed really good. And, it's definitely now on my radar, I think.

Lily: 1:43

yeah, for sure. Cause it's a short film festival and I haven't seen that many short films in my life. So it was really, it was actually really good to go to, to see how that compares. It was. What makes a short film?'cause it's different from

James: 1:59

It's its own particular art form. And, yeah, I haven't watched, short films in a long time. When I was at film school, I used to watch them all the time. Because, of course, that's what you are looking to make as a film school student. you start watching other short films. You go to the festivals. You go to the screenings that might be happening over the summer. You're trying to see what's out there, what's doing well and, get your head in that world. But once you're out of the short film world, I don't know, I've stopped watching them as much. So it was nice to go back into it because it got me excited about short films again, actually. It's like a, it's a nice tapas way of devouring film content. Hmm.

Lily: 2:35

my takeaway is that, I'm, I feel a bit nervous to say this in case anyone's offended, but my takeaway was that I think in particular documentary works really well for the short film format. I think that. There are certain beats in a narrative film that it feels a little bit rushed sometimes to hit in that shorter time span, but I think often a good story, you only need 15 minutes or half an hour to really do it justice when it's a documentary was how it felt being there. Hmm.

James: 3:07

it means that you can cover an incredibly unique or quirky story or like a story that has one thing about it that's interesting, but so it might struggle to make a 90 minute feature, the story subject would probably be stretched way beyond breaking point at 90 minutes, you know, because they often say with a short film, a good short film, you can imagine it being a feature, but a good, I don't know, short documentary, I think what you're saying is like, it suits that length. For 20, 15 or 20 minutes, you can be in this particular world, explore the theme of it and it feels just about right.

Lily: 3:39

I think you're so right. And I think actually that it's not the most narrative. short films just don't work so well. It's that I think actually often what people are trying to do is do a feature film in a smaller version as a showcase for something bigger they want to do. Whereas the films that we saw, the narrative films that we saw worked. Well, when they actually, like you say, have one smaller thing that you're exploring and just keep it to that one small idea that doesn't necessarily need that full length of time, like thinking about that film. what was it called? the thriller with the, the black and white thriller that we saw that was really good. I've now forgotten what it was. Do you know the one I mean?

James: 4:21

I know the one you

Lily: 4:21

It was called like mirrors or something, but it wasn't that. Yeah.

James: 4:24

Oh, it's called, no, it's called Shadows.

Lily: 4:27

you. Thank you. Shadows. Oh, shadows, mirrors. Oh, what does that mean?

James: 4:30

yeah, that was, that was, a great short film. That was like a classic example of a good short

Lily: 4:35

Yeah. And it was quite that she kept it tight, right? It was just one night, one little interaction with the characters

James: 4:44

Yeah, one look, one, one kind of location, just a couple of different places in that one location.

Lily: 4:50

Yeah, it was great. Yeah, so I want to, but I want you to tell me more about the film that you worked on, James.

James: 4:56

Yeah, well this, this was a film that, I was involved with due to being recommended by a friend of the show, Bjorn Bratberg,

Lily: 5:03

Woo!

James: 5:04

um, is a cinematographer who's from Norway, and he knows a lot of filmmakers over there, Janneke Systad Jakobsen, will put a link to her work in the show notes, and this film is called New York 81. it's kind of about Janneke's, uh, story about a photograph she found down the back of a, like a desk in an old photographic lab that she worked with in the 90s. And it was a photo of an old couple, and in the middle was a young boy wearing a New York 1981. t shirt or h1 t shirt and it'll and the thing is that the image looked like of they were in new york somewhere on a beach in america and obviously this was in norway that she found the photograph so she's just always wondering what was the story behind it the photograph And, she actually asked a load of friends in 2000, 2001, where I think when she was at film school. So she's got all this footage from 20 years ago, and then she picks a story because obviously with Facebook and social media, it's much easier to try and track things down. So she picks up the story again and she managed to get much further than she did the first time around.

Lily: 6:09

I loved it, I loved that, the um, the starting with this older footage. And seeing Yannicka younger as well, and then later on, I loved that, and just, it was so nice, the clips of her friends and people she spoke to looking at the photo and pondering, hypothesizing about who they are, what the dynamic is, because there are interesting things you can, when you look closely at this photo, that The younger guy is a little bit awkward, perhaps. There are like interesting elements. And how often do we stare and really look at a photo and think about all the possible stories that are behind it?

James: 6:43

And also that first half of the film where it is all the archive footage, it's people trying to figure out the stories, but then you're also getting a sense of the different personalities, so you keep cutting between the different characters, and you know, one's more of a joker, one's a bit more considered,

Lily: 6:57

true.

James: 6:58

so you've got like a, I don't know about a meta narrative, but you've got another strand of the documentary which isn't just the direct What's this, what's the story of the photograph? You're also getting to meet these people who are in Yannicka's life. You even get involved with them to a degree that you find out about one of the people in the videos, um, something in the documentary and that kind of hits you quite a little bit emotionally as well, because you've just spent a bit of time with them. there's a few different threads working away there, which makes it different from seeing something like this that might be more a TV format. you probably wouldn't, it would probably be much more regimented, less loose feeling.

Lily: 7:30

And yeah, another example of a. Of a documentary short that works very well in that. And all the film, it was part of a grouping of different documentary films. They were all quite, they focused on the filmmaker, right? They were

James: 7:45

So the, the, the filmmaker was very much, um, an active part of the story they were telling. So you would, it's not an observational documentary, it's more like a participatory documentary. So the documentarian is the character or is a character, at least in the documentary.

Lily: 8:00

yeah. It was very good, yeah.

James: 8:02

Yeah, I, I, I, I loved it. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was, it was a great film and I was very proud to being a part of it. And because of that, I've now got my very first credit on IMDB as a cinematographer. I'm so

Lily: 8:13

Hey! Wow, that's so exciting.

James: 8:16

oh, yeah. Yeah. Because when I watched my credit go up, I was,'cause you know, obviously I wonder what I'm officially credit at, and I was second unit cinematographer, so I was like. I wonder if that's gone on to IMDB, is that? So I looked up and there I am. So now I've got a cinematography or like camera credit, which I've never had before. So

Lily: 8:30

Oh wow, that's so exciting. Congratulations.

James: 8:35

thank you. That's a little mini life career goal achieved. A little mini tick there, you know?

Lily: 8:41

Okay, well, on to the main event. May, December.

James: 8:46

Absolutely. Yeah. We never, we rarely do a pre chat Lily.

Lily: 8:49

I know, it's nice, warming up. Yeah, I guess to wrap up, I would say Assessor Girl, strongly recommend. it's actually an absolute bargain for the amount of films you see. And, and the great thing about it is because you see that, so they do these slots of like one hour, one hour and a half of different genres. You can just go for an hour, see six films and you feel like you've. You've put the time in, you know, and you've got this amazing like smorgasbord. What did you say? It was like tapas.

James: 9:16

get a bunch of different types. You see different directors, different cinematographers, different styles of film, and different styles of filmmaking, and even if you don't particularly engage with one film, it's not quite working for you, then, within five to ten minutes, you'll have a different film coming along, so you don't, you're not, you've not locked into a film, where you're just like, Oh God, I'm not sure about this film. And the other thing that's exciting is these are the up and coming filmmakers. Short films are usually a springboard for people. So you may see some work that a few years later is now a major television or film director. So it's quite exciting to be there at the kind of ground level to see people's early talent. And you can almost get a sense of, oh, yeah, that person seems to have something that they're interesting to say. So that little bit may have gone to something.

Lily: 9:56

Yes, and exciting to know that they are probably in the audience like we heard a few directors at certain points commenting On their films. So of course you have to keep that in mind and be careful not to say anything until you're well out

James: 10:08

don't... Rule number one of Film Festival Club is you do not bitch about the films until you are well away from the screening area and you're in your own little nook in a pub. And even

Lily: 10:18

And even then don't name it. Keep it, keep things vague so they don't, you know, speak in hushed

James: 10:25

They're everywhere. They're everywhere, those directors. The thing is, Lily, I've been that person, the director, at a film festival, you know, many short film festivals, and it's like, it's agony. Like, I keep completely quiet because I don't even want anyone to overhear me talking about being a director. So it's like the maximum of... chance of them getting a real response from them that they don't have to mask it so it's terrifying she's thinking oh my god what if they slate it and then also I have I think I told you at the time that I was at the Manchester Kino Film Festival and my film came on it was being projected off a cassette tape and the aspect ratio was wrong it was all squash looking and I was fuming because this is my film being projected on the big screen so I legged it up to the projection booth. Pushed the door open, it's like, you're screening it at the wrong aspect ratio. And he says, you've got two options. We can either carry on like this, or I can stop the film, restart it, change aspect ratios. I was like, oh, fucking hell. Carry the film

Lily: 11:20

you should have stopped it, honestly. Honestly, it's like a fucking joke. What a joke. It's an outrage.

James: 11:29

Yeah, he said I put the wrong thing on the box. I didn't. And, he took the point, actually. He took the point.

Lily: 11:34

What, what, what, what?

James: 11:36

So, yeah, so, so and so, so there's lots of grumbling. It still happens about projection'cause

Lily: 11:40

Yeah, we heard a bit of that, of like, oh,

James: 11:42

and, and I've been there as well. I've, because as a short filmmaker, you know, you are super keen as be to be a director. So you obsess over everything and it's been a big challenge to get the finish film done. So you've probably seen each image load and you know exactly in your head how you want it to look. And then you go to a projection and it's like a bit. The blacks aren't very black, or the contrast's a bit crunch, and yeah, lots of grumbling about the projection.

Lily: 12:04

Yeah. Yes, speaking of projection, let's talk about May December. Uh.

James: 12:12

about, Lily.

Lily: 12:13

Let's start with the headlines, the top line, the plot, before we get into our experience of seeing the film. as I said before, May, December is Todd Haynes new film. And it is loosely based on the case of Mary Letourneau who was an American teacher who had a sexual relationship with one of her students. So this is actually the rare case of a film where the reality is actually slightly worse than the fiction because in the actual case she, the student in question was only 12. I actually knew about this case. probably most people, I guess, in America know about it because it was a huge kind of tabloid story at the time when the case came to light. But, I actually read about it. It was mentioned in passing in a journal article when I was doing my master's. And I was like, what on earth? What is this? So I looked into it and found this, this interview on, on YouTube. I think it was like, was it Diane Sawyer or, um, I know Barbara Walters interviewed the couple. Yeah, very classic. And it was, and this was similarly to the film, this was interviewing the couple later down the line when they were together and had children talking about This, relationship and so I was like fascinated by this not, the crime in it of itself, the affair or whatever you want to call it, is kind of one thing, but the fact that they, because what actually happened with, with Mary Turner is that she was sent to prison for having this relationship and then her and the boy subsequently got together when he was 18. They got together, got married, had children. She actually gave birth in prison. And so for me, that was like completely wild and stayed with me. So when I heard that Todd Haynes, one of my favorite directors, was making a film based on this story, I was like, oh my god. This is just, it's it sounds grim, but it's the perfect story for him because his interest is so in the kind of ambiguities of things,

James: 14:23

see, I didn't know what the story was going in. So because I didn't know that in advance, I do like these. If I haven't already spoiled the film by knowing a bit too much about the plot, then I'll try not to. So May, December was a classic case in point here. I didn't read anything about it apart from when he was a Todd, his new Todd Haynes film. But because it was called May, December. my brain did a whole bunch of d this is what the film's going to be about. So Todd Haynes often deals with the outsider, and often it's the queer outsider or the gay outsider in society. So I was like, okay, it's called May December, which is obviously like a reference to an age gap relationship, May

Lily: 14:57

Right, that's like a French phrase.

James: 15:00

so I thought, Todd Haynes... The title's May December, it's got Julianne Moore and Natalie Portman in it, it's clearly a May December, they're going to fall in love, so I was like, I was watching this film thinking, wow, I mean, I can't, I, it's going to be very unlikely that Natalie Portman's going to, is it the bit with the makeup where they do, I was like, finally, are we going to, I was very, and then after some point I did have to admit defeat that I'd just made that up or got it completely wrong, and the film wasn't at all about

Lily: 15:30

Wait, but did the penny not drop when it is revealed the nature of, Julianne Moore's relationship with her

James: 15:37

Absolutely not, no, because I was like, oh no, she's at it

Lily: 15:40

That is, that is hilarious. I love that. I did

James: 15:47

the, the penny was like, the penny was dangling and then maybe my fingers very slowly opened on the penny, but the penny was a thick penny. So my finger had to get really open for the penny. And then I was in like very low gravity. So the penny was like in slow motion.

Lily: 16:04

you're like, when are they gonna snog? when are they gonna snog? May, December, May, December, when are they gonna snog? Well,

James: 16:11

I mean date night was ruined, let's say that.

Lily: 16:15

Well, yeah, spoiler alert though, I don't think we need to spoil too much in this film. So we're not going to do that. It's one thing, but that's the one thing we will spoil is I don't expect Julianne Moore and Natalie Portman to get together. It's not going to happen.

James: 16:29

no, don't make the assumptions I did there, you

Lily: 16:33

I love that. I love that. But I

James: 16:35

Todd Haynes body of work for misleading me.

Lily: 16:38

Fair, yeah, fair enough, it's, it's true. But um, but it's uh, it's true, I did, so I heard about this film, A year ago, and I've been waiting, anticipating, like, anxiously waiting for this film to come out, and so that did, like, I did think, well, it's kind of early on in the film because there is a sort of slow reveal, which, okay, we have spoiled that slightly, sorry guys, the slow reveal of the nature of the relationship at hand, I did think I would have probably got something from not knowing anything going into it, but other than that, it was fine. I wasn't disappointed. because, because the interesting thing kind of like linking it back to what I said about that interview I saw with Barbara Walters was that just as with that in this film, the story isn't about the crime itself. It's about Julianne Moore and Charles Melton, who plays Jo, her husband, their relationship 23 years on from that time. We meet them in a week where their children are graduating from university, so their kids are 18. And Charles Melton's character, Jo, he is the age. That Gracie was when she had the affair with him, he's 36 and we follow as Elizabeth, Natalie Portman's character, an actress comes and spends a week with them to basically do character research because she's going to play Gracie in what she calls an independent film that we, it becomes quite clear that it is, it's a TV movie rather than like something more classier, I guess. she has this hIgher opinion of it and she's obviously takes her work very seriously. But obviously, as the film goes on, it becomes quite clear that she herself is, it's, it's amazing because when we first meet Natalie Portman's character, We don't, I think we're predisposed to like her because we're following her as she enters into this weird dynamic and she seems, if a little bit phony, kind of fine. And then stuff starts to happen as the film progresses, which makes you think, Oh, actually, no, she is not okay either. And it starts to twist. So that final, yeah, I won't spoil it, but.

James: 18:53

okay.

Lily: 18:54

Yeah, no, nobody is. Nobody is, okay. So what, tell me what

James: 18:59

Well, a true confession time here, Lily. It's like, I feel like, I've got to confess my cinema sins here. Um, that I, this is the first Todd Haynes film I've ever watched from beginning to end. Yeah.

Lily: 19:13

that's okay!

James: 19:15

Yeah, I know, I know. It just, he's definitely somebody who I should have seen more of, But, and weirdly, he's probably out of, if there's like a Venn diagram of directors who I know a lot about, but films I've never seen. Yeah. It's him and Pedro Almodovar, probably the two number ones. In fact, I know more about Todd Haynes filmography probably than Pedro Almodovar's. But, um, but like, and I've read, a really good book on film production by Christine Vachon, who's produced most of his movies, and she was the producer, or the exec producer, on this one as well, on May December. So they've worked together since the 90s, so I know a lot about that, but it's like, it's more, it's almost like, I'm more interested in reading about his films than, but for some reason I don't want to go sit down and watch them. and so, so, uh, yeah, you know,

Lily: 20:00

That's such an, that is actually not an ideal thing to say given the subject matter at hand, but

James: 20:05

oops.

Lily: 20:07

I love it.

James: 20:10

Oops. Yes. Sorry. That is incredibly, incredibly insensitive and I would like to apologize. Yeah.

Lily: 20:56

I think it's okay. I think given the tone of this film, I think it's fine. I think it's fine. I

James: 21:05

tone, right. And it's listed on IMDb as comedy drama, would you say it's a comedy in places, right? Cause it kind

Lily: 21:11

was laughing out loud quite a lot.

James: 21:13

This is the thing where, like, I feel like if I'd watched more Todd Haynes I'd get it, but I do know that Todd Haynes has a flair for the melodramatic. I know he pulls on the work of Douglas Sirk quite a lot. I know that Far From Heaven was like a riff on Sirk movies. immediately with the music, it's like melodramatic music in May, December. I couldn't gauge when I was watching it quite how... It's deliberately ridiculous and part how it's unintentionally, but I think it's mostly deliberate, but I've

Lily: 21:43

definitely, it's all deliberate.

James: 21:45

Yeah, I've never seen a film that plays up the melodrama quite as pronounced as that,

Lily: 21:49

Yeah, and it can be a bit jarring, for me, I thought the main thing was the music, right? There are these very, jarring, dramatic notes of like, duh, duh, at certain moments which aren't really in keeping with what's happening in the scene necessarily. And that does, it pulls you out of it a bit, but I think that's quite

James: 22:11

That's the part, yeah, you know, I got the impression like, it was just, I'd never seen a film that really does that before, and I imagined if I'd seen more of Todd Haynes films, I suspect it's in keeping with his kind of style, I don't know.

Lily: 22:23

I haven't seen every single one of his films, so I'll also confess that, but um, the films I've seen of his, there, there isn't that exact form of melodrama I would say. I mean it's interesting, so apparently so the score, those notes, those melodramatic notes, it's, they're from an adaptation of the score from that film, The Go Between, you know, that 1971 film with Julie Christie in it. Have you seen

James: 22:46

No,

Lily: 22:47

Oh, it's a, it's a, it's a good movie, but it's a film about a woman who like befriends a school boy and uses him to like, as the go between between her and her lover. And it what happens to this boy? So there's an interesting kind of echo of like, You know, vulnerable boy, older woman, falling in love with

James: 23:07

so it's riffing, riffing on that as well.

Lily: 23:09

Yeah, it was an interesting choice.

James: 23:11

I guess there was a very clear this is comedy moment at the top, but which I'd read completely as comedy and I thought it was funny where, Julianne Moore opens the fridge and there's a look of like shock on her face and the camera zooms into her and she goes, we've run out of burgers or sausages. It says something like mundane and the music's like, ding, ding, ding. I was like, okay. So we're going for comedy here, but then the subject matter, obviously, it's not what you would imagine would be the subject matter of a comedy. And, it's certainly not played broadly.

Lily: 23:38

But I think you're, I think you, you just hit the nail on the head there with I think that this is what Todd Haynes is interested in, is the mundane and how that can be both horrifying and also, comedic, like two sides of that same coin. and yeah, it's an odd, that kind of flip between the melodramatic and also the very voyeuristic, right? We're like watching, it feels uncomfortable a lot of the time because we're watching as these uncomfortable encounters are happening and this horrible history is being like invoked. And then at the same time, That's coming up against some real, like, naturalism and realism. this is ultimately a character study with characters that feel very, very real and are very well drawn. So that kind of, contradiction,

James: 24:25

yeah, it's like a, it's a bit of a melding of like heightened reality, but also very grounded. So it's a, it's an interesting blend that I, you don't see that often in, in many films, really. and it just feels, it did feel like I'm watching a director's kind of signature style or signature preoccupations. but without having seen these other films. It's hard to say for sure, but I would say as well, discussing this, we, I think we both saw it last night, because it's only just come out, so it's kind of still hot off the press, I'm not, I'm not that used to watching a film this quickly and then recording the episode, so my brain hasn't like percolated away as it, as much as it might usually do, so this is like me still figuring the film out a bit more than usual, I think.

Lily: 25:02

Do you feel, I feel like it's still, like, with me. I feel disconcerted from having watched it. And I think that's, like, classic Todd Haynes.

James: 25:11

Oh yeah. It is an outsider story, isn't it? it might not be the outsider story I imagined we're going in, but it's, it certainly, it's a gr it's a group of people living an outsider life, but trying to make it work in, in, in society.

Lily: 25:24

as in the couple.

James: 25:26

Yeah. and the couple of the family dynamic, they are essentially outsiders, but they're trying to inter, you know, their, their story, their, their entire relationship is now is of outsiders.

Lily: 25:37

So with Todd Haynes, I feel like there are Two main themes like that he likes to pursue on the one hand. It's like he's done a film that was almost biographical, a biopic of Bowie's life, but he didn't get permission to do it, to use his music and stuff, so he made it a broader 70s film, that was Velvet Goldmine, and then there's I'm Not There, the Bob Dylan biopic, and he also did a documentary on Velvet Underground, and then On the other side, and I have to admit, I didn't love Velvet Goldmine, which slightly put me off watching those other ones, even though I love Bob Dylan. The premise of it being seven different actors playing him was like a little bit mad to me. But now I'm, I think I need to go back and watch all of them to get the full, get a full overview of his work. But then on the other side, the side that I'm really into and that I love is the kind of women controlled by... cosseted in a society that has a lot of, that's wrong with it, you know, societal sickness and how that manifests, how that, the cost of that to the women who are oppressed by it, and also a kind of sexual dissatisfaction with like various areas of their lives. So Save, Far From Heaven, Carol, and I feel like May December fits into that to an extent, but it's an interesting one because this is, the difference, is that in those other films, so say for example, that is a woman who's being oppressed by suburbia, and we see the manifestation of that in like an illness that we don't know if it's real or not, that there are these clearer things oppressing her about society's

James: 27:15

Julianne Moore, isn't it? It's Julianne Moore as well. So they've worked together from the start of his career.

Lily: 27:20

they've done four films together, which is another reason why I love him, because I love Julianne more, and they, and he really, I feel like, has brought out her best performances. Um, but in this, this is an interesting one, right? Because, The ways in which they are, this, particularly G. M. Moore's character is being harmed by society, I think we all would feel that she, she did wrong, and it's correct that we have this morality that stops this kind of thing happening, it is, I think we all agree that it is wrong for a grown woman to have a relationship with a 13 year old, and so it has a different level of uncomfortableness because the film doesn't like out and out, Past moral judgment, we see, I don't think we really ever get to know her, but we see that there's nothing more there to her, we don't see that there is this like, evilness underneath, she just thinks she didn't do anything wrong, and that's it, and you see her be upset by the difficulty of her life, and what's come of it, which is kind of sad, right, and it's like, so it's kind of complicated, and so, yeah, kind of taking himself out of it. Yeah. Mm hmm. this theme that he's interested in, but pushing it in a new direction that's like more uncomfortable for the viewer to have to engage with.

James: 28:32

Yeah, yeah, which is what a good director should do, really, keep exploring their themes, but, uh, yeah, I thought Julianne Moore's performance was fantastic in this film, I just thought, for me, that's a perfect, definitive reading of a narcissistic mother, of somebody who lives in their own world, and doesn't believe they've done wrong, like, one of the characters says every day she wakes up, believe it, you know, like, and she doesn't, she seems to have no concern, Um, and it's like, yeah, and all the way her family react to her, the daughter who's left, who's left, the comments she makes to the daughter when she's trying on the dress about, you know, it shows off your arms, you're much braver than I am, the kind of negging, everything she does, it's self centered around her. and yeah, I've never seen it portrayed that, that kind of clearly on, on screen before.

Lily: 29:19

Yeah, it's true. And I think the fact that there isn't, we don't get anything. Under it, right? There's no

James: 29:26

Hmm. No, no, there's

Lily: 29:28

She is, she is very much, which is like an ama in a way, the most complex thing you can show, right? When everyone else around you does have a lot more than that. We see, in contrast to that, we see Jo, her husband. it's an amazing performance, Melton, because you see how he is as stunted. Adolescent, right? He's he's gone straight from adolescence to middle age with nothing in between. And he isn't able to, he's clearly unhappy in certain ways, but not able to articulate himself at all. And that scene with him and his son is just like, heartbreaking. It's so moving. So you see all of that going on at work underneath him. And that contrast to Gracie, they are such different characters. It's

James: 30:15

Yeah. Cause, Cause he is a, an emotionally immature, adult because he's essentially skipped growing up. The more you get to know him and see what he's like, you just think, God, what is their relationship based on? Back when. They had their initial affair. I think there's an expectation almost. You're watching the film. you'll understand the depth and the richness of their relationship, but actually it's not there. It's, it's two empty people who somehow have got this connection and it's just been falling apart for them.

Lily: 30:42

But I think, I feel like you, you've, you hit upon it because they're both isolated because of what they do. did or Gracie did to Joe and so they, all they have is each other really, but it's amazing like the seeing what happens when you double down on something you do wrong, right? like if she had, if, cause it's actually horribly, it's not uncommon, perhaps, perhaps with someone that young is uncommon, but. woMen teachers do have relationships with their students, unfortunately. And I think the normal thing, is that there may be a child, there may be not, but then that's the end of it. The idea that you would then have, yeah, you, you, move on with your life, right? Yeah, there is harm and then people move on. But the fact that they, and this is what happened in reality, is actually double down on that, got married, had children, stayed in the same Stayed in the same town where Gracie, because Gracie was, again, as in real life, was married and had a family when she had this relationship. And there is this incredible scene where they encounter the family and both Gracie and Joe's children are the same age as her daughter, right? Is that right? Oh god, I can't even believe it. Her daughter with... With her ex husbands. They're all graduating. They're all in the same year and just seeing that seeing how the harm that can be caused and then continues to be caused because out of This will to like make it all worth it actually just like Causes more and more damage and that history kind of fracturing through to the present day. It's amazing to

James: 32:21

Yeah. And yeah, there's the sequence, towards the end of the film between Gracie and Joe. When Joe tries to have a discussion with Gracie about perhaps I was too young, and she does the classic thing of narcissism, which is not to discuss the question at hand, but to turn it round and suddenly it's Joe who seduced her and who was the boss and all that kind of stuff. It's

Lily: 32:41

and that language was lifted from that Barbara Walters interview, I believe. that is actually what the real woman said on camera saying, but who was the boss? Who was the boss? And he literally actually says, he's this is a weird, he was like, well, yes, I, I pursued you. This is a weird conversation because obviously we're, you know, it's, it's amazing watching that because we're all thinking, yes, but do you, you don't see how this sounds? This is like, this is,

James: 33:08

Yeah, yeah. It doesn't sound good. The 13 year old boss of the relationship.

Lily: 33:13

Yes. and when even in their dynamic now that you see, she treats him like a child, she gives him chores to do. He doesn't embody adulthood at all. He's barely even kind of there, you know, it's, it's incredible performance.

James: 33:25

I really like Charles Melton's performance. I thought that was a gem in the film, for

Lily: 33:30

But I, but I think the actual, what makes it so, oh, What takes it to another interesting place is the fact that we've got Natalie Portman's character as well alongside it, who herself, as the film progresses, and how she engages with everyone, you see more and more that she herself is incredibly exploitative, she's doing a greasy herself, right? she's completely She's taking them all, taking what she can from all of them and with this very phony, fake, Oh, I want to tell your truth. Thank you so much. And then we see how, even as Gracie herself says to her at the end, how, there's this insecurity underneath everything, because she's, she is desperate for people to be attracted to her. It's, oh, it's very well done, I think, to have that. That element involved, because I think it's unexpected, you'd expect her to be a slightly, perhaps slightly more neutral or likeable character that we're following into it, and actually not at all by the end.

James: 34:31

yeah, absolutely. So where did you go to catch the film, then? You said you wanted to talk about it here. Have you got something to confess?

Lily: 34:39

No, no, nothing to, nothing to confess, nothing to confess. But, um, I, I won't name the cinema cause I don't want to be rude. But, um, I, all I would know the opposite of confession. I wanted to say, I think, I feel like actually finally us having after many years of you. Saying to me, it's all about quality, you've got to see the best screen you can see. I think our episode on cinematic experience has like actually made a mark because, where I saw it, it was a very nice cinema, like the, one of the nicest I've been to, like old school, very cool looking, but the, the projection itself was terrible, like definitely worse quality than if I'd seen it on my screen, on my TV at home.

James: 35:21

I do want to just dig down in this a bit because I watched it in like one of the smaller screens. We tried to find the best screen we could see it on because obviously that's my just default of how I go to the cinema. But my options were very, very limited. So we went to screen

Lily: 35:34

That's why I went to this place. It was quite a

James: 35:36

Yeah. so yeah, it definitely was not a great projection. However, the film's aesthetic was, it was shot digitally, but they put grain on it to try and make it look like 60 millimeter film grain. So the

Lily: 35:48

Ah,

James: 35:49

image. Yeah. So if you were thinking it didn't look great because it had a graininess to it,

Lily: 35:54

it was very grainy.

James: 35:56

That, that's a deliberate aesthetic, I would say, that was a choice that they made, because that was shot on one of the latest, greatest digital cameras. So the actual image from that camera is pristine. It's digital, which is obviously, I hate digital, but it was a very image. So that will have been added on to give it this 60 millimeter low budget film shoot.

Lily: 36:16

Okay, fine. Okay, that actually, that makes a lot more sense. Especially even if with other Todd Haynes films. I should have known really.

James: 36:25

I think even on the best screen we could have seen it on, I think it would have still had a slightly low, lo fi look to it, which was by design. Um, but yeah, but also you start, you're starting to discern differences, but on this particular occasion, I think it was essentially intentional, not the projection's fault.

Lily: 36:42

Okay. Fine. Well, I saw Saltburn just before it, which we're going to discuss next week. And, uh, and that was all a different, different screening, but also not, not amazing projection. So I, I think I am definitely like tuned into it now.

James: 36:55

get, it's time to learn it. Yeah, which is great. that's all I want to do is just open people, yourself and anyone who listens, just trying, try and appreciate better quality and look for better quality possible because you pay the same price for your ticket. You may as well get the best picture.

Lily: 37:08

yeah, very true.

James: 37:09

Saltburn already because A, I haven't seen it yet. And B, I saw a film yesterday before I saw May, December, and it wasn't Saltburn. And I wish it had been.

Lily: 37:18

What did

James: 37:18

I went to see? Well, I'd just like to preface this by, I was going to see it with, a film school friend, Susan, who was my sound designer on my short films. She now works as a sound designer for feature films and TV. So we were going for a research trip to listen to the Dolby Atmos Theatre at the Odeon Trafford Centre in Manchester, right? So it was a research trip, but the only film that was on at, in Dolby, at the Dolby Theatre was Hunger Games.

Lily: 37:42

Oh, no,

James: 37:42

Games.

Lily: 37:46

not

James: 37:46

was brutal.

Lily: 37:48

Oh,

James: 37:50

awful, like it was, it, Susan summed it up, she said, I went to see Killers of the Flower Moon last week, and that felt shorter. This felt twice as long as Killers of the Flower Moon, and it's an hour shorter, it's two and a half hours, but

Lily: 38:04

Oh

James: 38:04

god, Lily, if you want to see how not to make a film, go see Hunger Games, it's just unbelievable. And I couldn't believe how many just, the film just stops for, um, Rachel Ziegler to sing songs, like she's, she has a guitar, gets a microphone and strums, and she has these big song sections, like, what am I watching?

Lily: 38:24

Okay, I'm sorry. I'm really sorry that you had to experience that

James: 38:28

But I

Lily: 38:28

my, heart goes out

James: 38:29

I, I did, I did know it was going to be shit. It's the first time in a long time where I've gone to see a film that I know is going to be terrible. but we listened for the, and there were some good bits in the, there were good moments in the Dolby Atmos mix, but was it, did it counteract the bad film? Absolutely not.

Lily: 38:44

But bringing it back to May December, because I just wanted to talk about the script.

James: 38:48

uh went off off grid there.

Lily: 38:50

No, I love that for just an off piste, negative review. We should throw them into every episode to keep people listening.

James: 38:56

things up. Yeah. Mmm.

Lily: 39:00

December, the screenplay was written by Sammy Birch, her first feature length screenplay, in fact, and it was on the blacklist from 2020, which, James, what is the blacklist?

James: 39:12

I'll give you a potted mini history. So there's The name blacklist. I think is a reference to the blacklist that existed in the 1950s in America, which was, McCarthy era communist witch hunts, where communism was seen as the worst thing ever, and it needed to be stamped out in America. So they went on the hunt for communists, especially, like people in the creative communities, cause all those. Crazy creative role, left wing, the super liberal commies. So the blacklist got drawn up. So people who were outed as being communist or having communist affiliations. people who've seen Oppenheimer, that, that kind of thing was going on there with Oppenheimer, that they wanted to discredit him as being out him as a communist, that was happening all around America in lots of different industries, especially Hollywood. So, uh, People got blacklisted as communists, so it affected their careers as directors and writers. Lots of people didn't work for quite a while. It kind of went away in the 60s, when McCarthyism suddenly wasn't as popular, and that whole thing died down. A lot of people got their careers rehabilitated. There's now a modern blacklist, which is the opposite of that. And I think it's trying to reclaim that term, reclaim the whole... The history of the blacklist to be something much more positive based, which is the opposite. So every year since 2005, a list is drawn up of the best unproduced screenplays that executive producers at film studio have seen that year. They will submit what they think the best unproduced screenplays are. And there's a list drawn up. So every year you can go and look at the blacklist and see, is there a film that interests you? Maybe you want to make it. So that's how it's a way of getting films made.

Lily: 40:45

Yeah. So Franklin Leonard started it and, um, it's kind of a survey of most liked screenplays. So hundreds of development executives sent this list of. name screenplays and then the ones with the most likes Make it to the list, which I quite like is a very simple, straightforward, just we like it. think it was a way of just spotlighting great scripts that have, been overlooked. But actually of the, I think it's like over, over a thousand screenplays have been on this list now, of them 440 have been produced for theatrical release. And um, and according to a Harvard School business study, blacklisted scripts are twice as likely to be made into films. And,

James: 41:28

They make 90 percent more money than non, the films that weren't off the blacklist. It's like, I don't know what the parameters are there. I imagine there's a lot of wiggle but you know, it's, it seems to be that you, if you produce a blacklist film, the odds of making your money back are increased is, it seems to be the case.

Lily: 41:44

Yeah, I mean, personally, I'm, I'm less interested in the revenue element of it, but it's, but obviously that for the wider films get made because people think they can make money out of them. So it is important, but I like that. It definitely does help. So I was wondering what, how does that actually help? Because the interesting thing with some of these films on the blacklist that have been made is that that it's not all like Indie films, like May, December, you can see that as being a film that would have done the rounds. It's interesting, but perhaps, it's quite a provocative, subject matters. You can see why it maybe wouldn't get made, but there are also films like Bohemian Rhapsody and The King's Speech. And as you mentioned, Babe, The Hunger Games, like these were all on, on the blacklist at some

James: 42:23

Was the, was the Hunger Games on the blacklist?

Lily: 42:25

so it's interesting, right? Because it just shows that actually, even with a kind of franchise type known product, like the Hunger Games, there are often things stopping these films getting made. So it's difficult to get films made, basically. So it's, it's great that they, that this is there to kind of give certain films a push.

James: 42:46

There's one film I remember going to see. And I went to see it purely because it was a blacklist film. And I was just curious to see what a blacklist film was like. but when you look at the list of blacklist films that have been produced, you've seen loads of them. There's a lot of films on the blacklist that we've probably seen like Slumdog Millionaire. The King's Speech is one that is a notable one I've seen. Spotlight was a great film. I haven't seen Argo, but a lot of films that a lot of people might have seen.

Lily: 43:08

yeah. Notes on a scandal. Another film that was based on this story that we talked about of another film based on the affair between a teacher and a student.

James: 43:18

Oh, really? popular topic for the blacklist.

Lily: 43:22

And Promising Young Women actually. I mentioned how we're talking about Saltburn next week. and we've talked

James: 43:26

I was promising you a woman on there. But hang on, but it doesn't make no sense, Lily. It was written by the director. Why would she put it on the blacklist? It doesn't make sense.

Lily: 43:33

Because it's not for a director, it's for a producer. she was directing, but these films are about, the films on the blacklist are about getting them produced. She didn't have attatched

James: 43:43

right, right. Oh, that's so cool.

Lily: 43:45

yeah, because that's the thing, it's not, even though it does, it is a great spotlight. And the, and Blacklist now, it's more of a bigger project about helping writers become screen, Yeah, Yeah, it's amazing, but actually, yeah, there are lots of directors on this list too, because you need to find a producer to have those films produced.

James: 44:06

Yeah, I hadn't realized that about, uh, promising a woman. That's very interesting.

Lily: 44:09

Yeah. Yeah.

James: 44:10

It's hard to say that being on the blacklist is a certain type of film because there's some that have been a huge success, but when I went to see, when I went to see Source Code, for example, I did think, I can see why that probably didn't get picked up immediately because it didn't quite work. I thought the premise was okay, but it felt like not amazing. but that's not the case with all the films on the blacklist because the King's Speech and Spotlight are absolutely cracking films, but part of me wondered is the blacklist not particularly a guarantee of quality, but I don't think that's the case.

Lily: 44:40

Oh god, no. I mean, I made a list of the best films to my mind on there and yeah, Spotlight, The Revenant, Juno, Notes on a Scandal that I mentioned, Imbruge, Superbad, The Hangover, and then also The King's Speech and The Menu from last year. It's like a huge array of

James: 44:59

menus blacklist.

Lily: 45:01

Menu was on that list. Don't Worry Darling was on there as well. The Arrival even.

James: 45:06

See, don't worry darling, I will put there with source code. Maybe the blacklist isn't good for science fiction. Cause

Lily: 45:13

No, but Arrival's on there.

James: 45:15

Right, fine,

Lily: 45:16

I don't think there's any, I think you're right, there probably are, of course, there will be films on there, which is, it's the reason they didn't get a first pass is because something wasn't quite right, but I actually think that is probably, just one element, because obviously Lowe's on this list. The script is perfect. so there's something else going on there. There are loads of reasons why films don't go get made, and I think it's just about putting a spotlight on those, on, on scripts that, that I think it'cause the fact that it's just about them being liked, I think that's great because it's just giving a boost to something that like, probably was like, is almost there. It just hasn't found it's producers just yet, you know? But that could be for many different reasons.

James: 46:01

But possibly because things have changed so dramatically the past even just five years with the move to streamers that maybe a lot of these films aren't really quite maybe the reason they're now liked is that they are good films and maybe 10 years ago they would have been made no problem whereas now perhaps the people the execs who are liking these scripts are liking them but they think I think we can't make that right now I mean I'm, you know, we've, we've gone through the superhero film era, which is now crashing and burning spectacularly. so I wonder out of the ashes of that, will we get more smaller budget? And there's a lot of, it's interesting to read that they're not all small, low budget, little contained dramas like May, December, that some of them are bigger, set pieces. But I wonder if studio execs are just thinking, well, there's just not as big an audience for these kind of films anymore, but it's really good. So on the blacklist it goes.

Lily: 46:46

Yeah, but I also think it's just a testament to the fact that, a script is really important, but it is not the only thing that makes a hit movie. Because of the films that have topped the list, so the Imitation Game has topped the list. Overall, it's got 133 likes and okay, I must confess, I fell asleep during it. It wasn't for me, but however we feel about it, right, that

James: 47:10

sorry.

Lily: 47:11

was a, I don't know if it was a hit or not financially speaking, but obviously it won an, it got an Oscar for Best Adapted Screenplay. it did well that year and, we remember it, right, but everything else that topped the list. None of them are films that I've seen or for the most part heard of, like, Things We Lost in the Fire, The Brigades of Rattleborge, Recount, Move On, Headhunter, Cauliflower, I don't know any of these movies. Yeah, so I think, just because a script is really good and well written obviously doesn't necessarily mean it's going to become a big hit. But, it's cool to have this boost to all those films and then out of them, some amazing things are being made, like,

James: 47:56

Absolutely.

Lily: 47:57

December. Okay, shall we take a trip to the film pharmacy?

James: 48:02

Yes, please.

Lily: 48:06

Hi, Lily and James. As a creative person, musicians specifically, I find getting off the sofa and finding motivation to write or create sometimes hard. Do you have a film to inspire me to be creative and get the juices flowing?

James: 48:22

Hmm, so a musician seeking inspiration. So I was pondering this there's many films I would reach for inspiration, but I think this is because it's a musical based one. I was trying to think what we could have that's inspiring. And, one of the first ones that came to mind was Inside Dwellin Davis, which is a, uh, It's a Coen Brothers film it's set in the 1960s, and it follows a week in the life of like a struggling folk singer in Greenwich Village in New York by, played by,

Lily: 48:46

Oscar Isaac.

James: 48:48

Oscar Isaac. Thank you. Sorry, I had a little blank there.

Lily: 48:50

I haven't seen it, but I fancy him very much, so it's on my list. I want to watch it at some point.

James: 48:55

There you go. It's a, it's a lovely little film and it'll probably, it'll remind you of why I think musicians are musicians. there's that indefinable thing that makes the struggle of maybe not earning a lot of money and things being a bit tight. You've got to remember there's a reason why they are musicians, why they do it. And it nails that perfectly, I think. And then, I'm not sure if this would inspire you. But, but Whiplash it's almost the opposite of Inside the Well and Davis. This is like the intensity and the madness that drives creative people.

Lily: 49:25

Do you not think that might just be like, Oh no, I don't have that kind of intensity. It might be demotivating.

James: 49:32

that's why I'm with the proviso that I'm not sure it's quite what you're after. But Inside the Well and Davis, if that doesn't quite do it for you, maybe Whiplash will, but I would go with Inside the Well and Davis. Yeah, because I agree with you, Whiplash might put you off.

Lily: 49:43

When I was thinking about it, Well, I was, I thought it was like, Ooh, musician. What specifically would work for a musician? But actually, As someone who's not a musician, It's hard for me to say. But also, I find, personally, that The films that inspire me creatively or just give me some kind of feeling of inspiration often aren't, it's not in a, the artist isn't doing something that I do, right? So I, I don't think it needs to be necessarily the same kind of work for you to still feel inspired. so I was thinking more about like the different things that can demotivate you or, make you feel. less driven and what you can do to boost those. it was hard not to think about ones we'd already discussed, because what came to mind was Jodorowsky's Dune. In terms of like, creative ambition, Just to like, go for it and, and, and go for your dreams and let you be as ambitious with what you want to achieve as possible. I feel like it's a good,

James: 50:43

actually.

Lily: 50:44

yeah, it's a good motivator for that, right? even though it doesn't end up with the product. Something in, just seeing him talk about it, I found very, yeah, his passion is like super inspiring. and then I also thought of. Moon Age Daydream, which I feel like we've mentioned many times, but in terms of seeing David Bowie's sense of imagination,

James: 51:05

Yep.

Lily: 51:06

he, I mean, just pure creativity, really. I found it very inspiring and it Kind of awe inspiring to watch, and then my third recommendation, got a few, this might be just personal to me. I don't know, but recently I watched Ladyboss, the Jackie Collins story

James: 51:24

Right. What, what, where's that? Where can I find Ladybuster's Jacket Colleen

Lily: 51:28

That is on Curse and Home. You can probably find other places. That's where I was lucky enough to see it and Quite a rogue choice. I've never read any Jackie Collins novels I do have one on my bookshelf, but I haven't quite found that I've got it from one of those little libraries on the street I like got it out of there thinking maybe at some point I'll be in the mood, but I haven't yet found the moment but watching this documentary I was just so struck by her work ethic, she was just always writing. And considering that it's... Generally taken that she's not like the best writer in the world, right? I was just so impressed by her never that, never, that never being really an issue. She was just always, she always loved writing. She always did it. And that I found very kind of inspiring and motivating. Even though I am myself, I'm not a writer, right? So I think those three would be

James: 52:22

I think they sound great. I'm actually quite interested in this Jackie Collier's documentary. I didn't even know it existed.

Lily: 52:28

She's a really inspirational woman. She's an incredible woman, like, forefront of feminism without even really, taking up that mantle. You know, and despite feminists always telling her that she was doing harm rather than good, I actually think she's an incredible, incredible person. Very flawed and complex.

James: 52:45

Like all the best characters are. Ah.

Lily: 52:50

definitely a laptop film. To go back

James: 52:54

not a cinematic experience, you would say. It doesn't, doesn't, like, right. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, got you. Got you. No, I'm, I'm super interested in that one. Well, thank you for those recommendations, Ali.

Lily: 53:04

And to you James, hopefully they'll be useful to our listener. All right, so thanks everyone for listening to another episode of Groovy Movies.

James: 53:12

And if you could leave us a like or review on any of the platforms that you listen to us on, we would really appreciate that. It all helps grow our audience and get us out there to more people.

Lily: 53:22

Yeah, all right guys, so we'll see you next week. Bye.

James: 53:25

Bye!