Rebel without a Claus: The Groovy Movies Xmas-travaganza

For our penultimate episode of the series we’re going recommendation-heavy and spoiler-free, with our top picks of festive films, hitting every point on the Grinch-to-Elf Christmas spirit scale. 

References
The Powell and Pressburger season from Oct-Dec 2023 - catch the last few screenings now.
The Red Shoes: Beyond the Mirror exhibition
Piece for ASC on Jack Cardiff from 1994, The Red Shoe’s cinematographer
Why The Red Shoes looks so good by The Royal Ocean Film Society on YouTube
The cinematography of The Dark Knight by V Renee for nofilmschool.com
The Philosophy of Groundhog Day by Sebastian Martinez Diaz for film-cred.com
Carol by it’s Cinematographer Ed Lachman for ASC

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Transcript

Lily: 0:00

It's actually less of the Sarah Jessica Parker of it, but more the Diane Keaton Welcome to Groovy Movies, my name is Lily Austin.

James: 0:17

And my name's James Brailsford. Hello.

Lily: 0:20

Hey, James, happy Christmas. Can we say that yet? this will be coming out 10 days before Christmas. So very much in the run up to the big day.

James: 0:30

it, feeling that burn.

Lily: 0:31

I'm already feeling it so much. I was saying this to James before we started recording, I had two Christmas dinners back to back this weekend with friends after an already busy week of social events.

James: 0:44

I'm sure everybody, every listener's heart is bleeding for you there. Too, too, too much of a good time, Lily. Too, you're having too much fun and it's taking its toll on you. Is that what you're trying to summarize as?

Lily: 0:54

God, I know it was so, so obnoxious, but what I mean to say is I'm very much in the Boxing Day state of mind, which I think is perfect for this episode because we're going to be doing Christmas recommendations, film recommendations, spoiler free.

James: 1:10

Spoiler free? I mean, yeah, I

Lily: 1:11

Yeah, yeah, come on, come on. We can do it. We can do it. I mean, a lot of these films, I think people will probably have already seen, so it may not be, but we're not going to spoil anything. Don't worry guys.

James: 1:21

For me, personally. The films that you suggested are new to me. So,

Lily: 1:25

I know, I know, but that was a deliberate choice because we came to this concept of the Christmas special because a huge revelation for me, James is not really into Christmas films.

James: 1:38

Bah humbug.

Lily: 1:41

And having done Die Hard last year, my favorite Christmas film. I was like, James, it's your turn. Why don't you pick your favorite Christmas film? And he was like, I don't, you don't, you don't, I don't have one. That's not a thing. Is that correct?

James: 1:56

about movies and I can normally come back with some useful perspective on them, but ask me for my favorite Christmas film and four turns out that's a massive blind spot. Yeah, just, just,

Lily: 2:06

in contrast, I struggled to think of just three. There were so many competing options that I had to be tactical about my choices in the end.

James: 2:16

and I thought they were very interesting choices. Lily, I do have to say, like, I was expecting one to be a bit more Santa to deliver presents and if the presents don't get delivered, bad things will happen.

Lily: 2:24

No, no, I have no interest in that.

James: 2:27

Right. As I was working my way through them, I was like, okay, right. I see, you see Lily's specific Christmas interests here.

Lily: 2:35

Sorry, I was just giving the choices, it was quite funny, yeah. Family tension and lesbian love affairs.

James: 2:41

I mean,

Lily: 2:42

Tick tock. Okay, cool. Well that's just a little hint for you guys. Well, before we get into that, guys, the format is So you're aware, going forward, that we've picked three films each. I have chosen three Christmas film recommendations, and James has chosen three un Christmas film recommendations. Films that are great for the time of year, but are not, not a Christmas film in the, in the, either the setting or the, subject matter, I guess.

James: 3:13

perhaps a comfort watch that that time of year comes a calling and it's something that often gets watched around that time of year,

Lily: 3:19

I love, yeah, so yeah, thinking about some of your, these choices, I like the idea of a comfort watch, but before we get to all of that, we wanted to talk about a new release because, you know, we like to be topical where we can, and The Red Shoes is out for the next few weeks as part of the BFI's Powell and Pressburger season, which I know you, James, are very excited about.

James: 3:41

Yeah. I'm a, I'm a huge Powell and Pressburger fan in my early years of getting into films they very quickly come on your radar as the purveyors of classic films. So had you up until this particular viewing last week, have you seen any Powell Pressburger films previously?

Lily: 3:57

So I'd seen Black Narcissist because that was a film that occasionally my mom would say, Oh, such a good film. So it was sort of, yeah. And, and I think I'd vaguely heard of the Red Shoes because When this, season was announced and all the films were listed, I kind of thought, oh yeah, I think, I have this feeling, the site is telling me that is an amazing film. And then, and then we had the opportunity to see it this week, so, so I went to the screening and, oh my god, it

James: 4:27

Tell me about it. Where, where was it? How did you, how was the experience for you?

Lily: 4:31

So it was a BFI press screening, so they have like a little, an office where you can go and see films to promote this season, and also the Red Shoes specifically, you can see it now for the next few weeks, and there is also a free exhibition at the BFI South Bank called the Red Shoes Beyond the Mirror, which is all the, the accoutrements of the film, including the Red Shoes themselves, which are in Martin Scorsese's possession, and he's loaned them to the exhibition.

James: 4:56

Yeah, Martin Scorsese is a huge Powell and Pressburger fan. The, um, relationship that he has with, uh, Michael Powell is a fascinating footnote, I think, in cinema history.

Lily: 5:06

And this release of The Red Shoes, he mastered, I think,

James: 5:11

I think, yeah, doesn't he have, like, the Martin Scorsese Film Foundation, or he has some foundation that, that funds these restorations?

Lily: 5:17

right, yes, yes. But it says in the credits, restored by Martin Scorsese. Maybe he didn't do it personally, maybe it was just his foundation. Do you think?

James: 5:26

I think he's got better things to do

Lily: 5:27

And that is why he's only made one film in the last few years. Like,

James: 5:32

That's, that's why Ridley Scott can crank them

Lily: 5:34

exactly. Yeah.

James: 5:36

up frames from an old 1940s film.

Lily: 5:39

yes, yes, because yes, the film came out in 1948. It's the 75th exhibition. So I'm seeing, I'm going to watch the film, I'm going to see The Red Shoes again this weekend, and then go see the exhibition.

James: 5:51

You're gonna go see it

Lily: 5:52

yeah, because I'd already got tickets, I was going to take my mom for Christmas.

James: 5:57

see. See, so then you got the

Lily: 5:58

Yeah, and I thought, and I'm so glad because it's so, it was amazing watching it in the cinema for the first time having not seen it and not really like

James: 6:08

Was it screen one, Lily, Lily? You know I need to know the screen numbers. You can't,

Lily: 6:11

Yeah, I don't, it's a different, it's like small screens though, EFI

James: 6:15

Right,

Lily: 6:16

I don't, I'm, yeah, I'm not sure it's 4K honestly. That's why I need to see it. I'm gonna see it though, in the best possible being this, this Saturday. I can do a compare and contrast.

James: 6:27

Because for a film from the 1940s at 75 years old, how did it look?

Lily: 6:31

Fucking amazing. So, so beautiful. I literally, there's a set, there's a sort of central dance scene. In the middle of a film and I literally felt myself go into a kind of a trance watching it. It was so beautiful to watch. I like, it just the whole film looks amazing. So, so stunning. So the kind of magic of cinema of this era, like they don't make them like this anymore kind of vibes. But also the thing that I didn't expect and which I really enjoyed was that it's very funny. It's the people are really well, everyone's a real character in the music, you know, it's not, it's not a boring old movie. It's not like taking itself seriously, which is such a nice surprise.

James: 7:13

that's one of the joys of discovering Powell and Pressburger I think there's a feeling almost of homework because these are classics and so when you think of classics you think oh gosh these are this is like, you know, this is more for for the academic appreciation of cinema than just actually watching a good film. Then you start watching them and you realize, oh no, these are beautifully produced pieces of mass entertainment. So they have to have some comedy in them. They have to be entertaining. They can't be just purely these worthy testaments to cinema. They've got, you know, they are great. I always am surprised by how rich and fun the characters usually are in a Powell and Pressburger film.

Lily: 7:49

totally. But then also this darkness, there is always a dark, sinister edge to, is that right? It seems like the, at least the couple of films I've seen, that he, they've got a darkness to them and I like it.

James: 8:00

So one of the things that makes. Uh, Red Shoes and a lot of Powell and Pressburger's films hold up so well today as they shot on one of the first popular color processes called Technicolor. And it's a particular way of shooting. That's incredibly complicated, but, um, it just means that the colors, even to this day, look so rich and vivid and there's so much detail and quality that it draws you into the story. Like and especially when they've been brand new restored, like you've just seen, which is a brand new touch up. They look really good when they've had a little bit of dust up.

Lily: 8:28

Yeah, you're right. There is something, the, the colors, the vividness of the colors is so different to anything, any new film now as wonderful and lush as those colors might be. It's a different quality to it.

James: 8:41

Yeah, colour film stock didn't exist back then. They actually had to shoot on three different black and white film stocks and filter out the cyan, the yellow and the magenta. And then they essentially screen printed the dye onto a piece of film. So that's why they're so rich and saturated. It's essentially like dye that's been printed onto a piece of, film stock that gets projected.

Lily: 9:03

God, that's amazing. Ooh, that sent shivers through me. I don't know why. It was just so amazing to have the physical thing be created like for that

James: 9:12

as you can imagine, the camera was so bulky because it had three sets of film going through it and so it was huge and we'll put links in the show notes, and his cinematographer Jack Cardiff, they would call it the enchanted Cottage'cause it was so big. To use the technical process. You couldn't just borrow the camera and, and, and use it. You had to have a tech. You had to sign a contract and. It's a Technicolor color consultant turn up on set. So when you look at any Technicolor film, there's always a credit for Technicolor color consultant. And now that was primarily the wife of the guy who invented the company. She apparently had a reputation. She would get involved with everything to do with color, including costumes, sets, production, design, props, everything. She, she had the power to stop them shooting. If she didn't think the colors were going to look good in Technicolor.

Lily: 9:58

Oh my God.

James: 9:59

So Pal and Pressburger, they were always pushing the, they were always like pushing the envelope. So they were constantly at odds with this technical consultant about what they could and couldn't do because things that they wanted to do in the films that were making were against what Technicolor wanted. So when you look at Pal and Pressburger, I think their use of color is very innovative. Uh, Meet Me in St. Louis, which one of the films we, uh, they're going to talk about that's, I would say a traditional Technicolor film. That's Technicolor without pushing any envelopes, just delivering the envelope it has very, very

Lily: 10:28

Like wanting to look realistic, do you think?

James: 10:31

No, just the colors looking exceptionally vivid and lush and rich. I wouldn't say there's any experimentation going on. Whereas Powell and Pressburger were willing to take more risks. If you, if you look side by side between. Red shoes, let's say, and, uh, meet me in St. Louis. It's much darker lit in a red shoes is much more expressionist use of lights, less glossy. You know,

Lily: 10:49

Right, right, right, right. but You saw a Powell and Pressburger film recently, didn't you?

James: 10:55

I, I watched it on the telly. I watched, I've watched a matter of life and death on the TV is out of the cinema. Um, yeah, my anchor partner, she went to see a matter of life at the cinema. That's out and about. was wonderful to watch that again as well. I mean, they are a product of their time that they are like. This is what the 1940s were like in a very idealized, very specific worldview. But my God, you can't deny they know how to tell stories. They know how to make really good characters. The cinematography is beautiful. this is top notch. You know, this is the best of what the cinema industry in the UK was capable of doing back in the 40s.

Lily: 11:30

So yeah, if you, if you can, I checked and there are quite a few more screenings, mainly in London, but it's, yeah, it's a bit, it's part of a BFI season, but they're showing it a few different cinemas, not just the BFI. So if you can see, get to the Red Shoes and get to that exhibition, it's definitely well worth it.

James: 11:46

I think they're hugely innovative, filmmakers. Emerick Pressburger was the producing partner and wrote most of the scripts. Michael Powell actually was the director. So that's how they

Lily: 11:57

Interesting. Cause in the, I saw in the credits, it said. written, produced, directed by Pallant Pressburger and I was like, Oh, okay, cool. Like, how are they? So that makes sense that they'd kind of divide it up that way.

James: 12:09

Their production company was called the Archers. So Most of their films start with this close up of a, um, a target. And they have two arrows that go in because that's the two members of the archers. Powell, Pressburger, poof, poof. You know, it's like, that's how you fucking do it.

Lily: 12:23

So that's in cinemas, but if you can't get to cinema or In addition, over Christmastime, you want to watch a movie at home, as is our, as is the way, usually at Christmas, we have some suggestions for you shall we start with my Christmas suggestions? Christmasy films. set at Christmas for the most part. Is that right? Yes, yes, of course it is. Yes. The meet me in St. Louis is kind of, it's a, it's across the year, but the kind of, the sort of emotional high point is at Christmas.

James: 12:55

for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Upon watching meet me in St. Louis, I was like, where, where's the Christmas? Where's the Christmas? Come on, Lily, come on, gimme that Christmas. And yeah, like you say, it's more, it's more a year in a life, isn't

Lily: 13:06

it's a year in the life, but yeah, there is this, the emotional. Nir is is that Christmas And, uh, and, and it gave us one of the most, well-known Christmas songs. Have yourself a me for Christmas.

James: 13:19

That I assumed was like a classic that they were just using in the film. I had no idea that that's where it came from. So, you know, mad props, for, for that alone, I would say Meet Me In St. Louis.

Lily: 13:29

I know, Judy Garland's iconic warbling.

James: 13:36

I mean, as a, uh, uh, uh, uh, but watching this as well. You look like you're having a stroke there, Lily. Um, uh, um, uh, yeah. So, so, I may be real as well. I haven't really seen many Judy Garland films outside of The Wizard of Oz. So that was an interesting experience. Just to, you know, she's very charismatic. You can see why she was a movie star,

Lily: 13:57

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, actually, I don't think I have either. I think those are the only two I've seen of hers. Um, and in this film in particular, she really does light up a room, I have to say. I, uh, I watched this film at least once a year since I was a little girl. Probably more than that, because I was obsessed with it as a child. I wanted to be in this family. I wanted to This is probably why I'm ginger, James, thinking about it now. Between Judy Garland and her sister Rose, the two icons of red hair, it's a,

James: 14:28

How did it, come on your radar? Was it something that your mum was like, Oh, you might enjoy this, or were you scouring the Christmas listings and you're like, Oh, this looks interesting.

Lily: 14:34

It was just on, I think, from time to time on the TV, obviously definitely at Christmas, but I think other times too. And yeah, I definitely would have been mum at some point because I know that she watched it as a child. I know part of that warbling was an ode to my grandmother who hated Judy Garland's voice and the way she sang.

James: 14:50

that your, was that, was that actually an impression of your grandma doing an impression of Judy Garland?

Lily: 14:54

I never met my grandma, but I'm sure she'd have done an impression of it. I just, it's just become family law that she bloody hated that way she would warble.

James: 15:03

Uh,

Lily: 15:06

Um, so, but what did you think of the film?

James: 15:09

Okay. So there's nothing to dislike about this film. No complaints. However, it did make me reflect on, I do like movie musicals, but I like a certain type of movie musical. And I found this one, not my type of movie musical. So I would say if you do like a musical and you like Christmas films, you're going to love this. If you are not keen on either, this isn't going to change your mind. You know, if you don't like music, if you don't like musicals, Meet Me In St. Louis is not the one to watch to change someone's mind. I would say this is like, this is about as trad a musical as it gets.

Lily: 15:41

The thing is, it's so because I've watched it so, so many times, it's so well entrenched in my being that I don't really have a good perspective on it. Um, and I'm really not into musicals in general. it's basically Mama Mia or nothing. No, I'm kidding. But, but, but yeah, I can see how you'd feel the way, because I mean, it's quite a simple story. It is of a family who alleged, who seemed to think they're not very wealthy, but they live in the most incredible house in St. Louis. And it follows. Judy Garland, as she falls in love with a neighbor. And then the family negotiating the possibility of Maving having to, having to move house. And that's, that's about

James: 16:22

that's about as, that's about as rough as things get for the family.

Lily: 16:25

But the way the family is portrayed, that, the stuff around Halloween, I just love. Like it's so odd and I don't know, there are certain, it's basically vignettes on a family that I find incredibly funny and sweet and I love the characterization, quite like Powell and Pressburger really. I think the attention to that characterization is, is special.

James: 16:47

it did make me reflect watching this on like the difference between Powell and Pressburg. Meet Me in St. Louis is like what you imagine a Hollywood film from that era would look like, it's like, it's bright, it's colourful, the sets are wonderful, everything looks amazing. It's, it's immaculately crafted and Powell and Pressburger has that, but there's something just a little bit more of an edge to it. The gloss is just ever so slightly dialed down. And yet, even though both, all characters live in these heightened, technicolor worlds.

Lily: 17:14

But did you not find the stuff at Halloween with the kids, that the whole drama around what happens there, it's quite weirdly dark and those kids are absolute brats. So I quite like that, there is a bit of an edge. My sister refuses to watch the film because she finds that bit so dark and unpleasant. But I think that everyone has a bit, a little bit of an edge more than you might think, maybe, but maybe not. Maybe it's just a bit corny.

James: 17:38

In the family? Who do you identify more, more with?

Lily: 17:42

Definitely Judy Garland's the main character, of course. But I love, I love Rose as well. But yeah, definitely Judy trying to,

James: 17:52

Holding out for that guy just to ask her to marry her from the other side of the, on the

Lily: 17:57

Who's got this amusingly, like, tough edge and then turns out to be making a fool of herself all the time. Yeah, definitely relate to that. And I just love those dresses. Oh, so

James: 18:08

Oh yeah, I mean the costume and the production design are Technicolor marvels. They all really pop out. You can tell the Technicolor consultant there was like, you're using this. Green fabric and nothing, and that's literally what it would come down to. She would even consult on the color tones and the reflective qualities of all the fabrics.

Lily: 18:26

I love them using kind of period piece to just have like crazy elaborate, beautiful costumes, which I'm sure were like nothing like the actual looks of the time, but a fantasy of what, what life was like, you know, at the turn of the century.

James: 18:41

yeah, exactly. I mean, this is like Hollywood doing what Hollywood did best, which is romanticizing everything that it touches. So yeah, absolutely. It's the most idyllic, clean looking 1902 I've ever

Lily: 18:53

Yes, very clean, very clean indeed. Okay, shall we move on?

James: 18:56

Let's venture further into Christmas territory now. So, like you say, the previous film, like, it's dramatic height was at Christmas, but it's a year in the life of this family. But now, now we're not fucking around. Now it's like, come on,

Lily: 19:11

Yeah, now we're, now we're literally at Christmas, everyone's dressed for the season, so, my next choice for you was The Family Stone.

James: 19:22

Now, I've never heard of this, right? But, so, so, here's my thought process of these days, after like over a year now of doing these podcasts, eh? So, we haven't discussed your choices in length. It's like, okay, so I've never heard of it. My gut feeling is this is going to be a mid noughties, maybe late nineties film, because this is, this is one from Lily's, Christmas favourites, Christmas children. So, and then, and then when I looked at the cast, Sarah Jessica Parker., mid noughties. I was like, oh my God, this is peak, peak Lily Austin, formative film potential here.

Lily: 19:55

You're actually incorrect on that aspect. So, but yeah, so

James: 20:01

What are you doing putting it in your list then?

Lily: 20:03

I love this movie, but actually I saw it once, I think when I was a teenager, maybe, but I then. Yet last year there was a weird kind of renaissance of the family stone. Quite a few, I saw stuff about it online and there was a long read about it and one of my favorite podcasts, Sentimental Garbage, did an episode on it. And so I watched it again being like, Oh yeah, Family Stone. It's actually less of the Sarah Jessica Parker of it, but more the Diane Keaton. I'm obsessed with Diane Keaton.

James: 20:34

When I saw her in the cast, that certainly made me pay attention to it a little bit. Like, okay, Diane

Lily: 20:39

Yeah. So I rewatched it and I just, I, I found it. very enjoyable to watch. think it's quite an odd film in lots of ways, but I don't know. I wanted to give you a good, a mix of sort of highs and lows. And I think an important element of Christmas viewing is like films that are a bit shit. I don't think The Family Stone is shit, but you know what I mean? Like sort of not, not the highest production value, I guess.

James: 21:06

It's a lesser film compared to let's say Meet Me in St. Louis. We're talking about Hollywood at the height of its powers in the fifties when the Hollywood machine was like pumping these things out to manufacture to degree to we're in the mid noughties. Now the wheels are coming off the system a little bit, but, but this is like them. Attempting the same thing just for the mid noughties, we've got some big stars. It's very glossy You know, it's all coming together.

Lily: 21:30

Give me a plot, a quick plot synopsis for those of our listeners who are like you and aren't familiar with the family stone. Dermot

James: 21:37

It's a Quirky semi dysfunctional family meeting up for Christmas and one of the family members this guy Brings home his

Lily: 21:45

Mulroney, let's get the cast correct.

James: 21:50

Dermot Mulroney brings home his partner, played by Sarah Jessica Parker. But none of the family really like her. They're a bit snobby, a bit dismissive of her. And then it turns out that actually she gets on better with somebody else in the family. And actually Dermot Mulroney Oh, sorry, sorry, I can't spoil it. I mean, this is the whole fucking point of the film, right? But anyway, there's lots of, ooh, they should be together with so and so, and then it's Christmas, lots of interpersonal monogamous drama.

Lily: 22:20

you had no time for?

James: 22:23

I just, yeah, I found it, I found it hard to give a shit. Um, but, I was then also drawing the parallels between Meet Me in St. Louis and this film. Just, just as I was watching it, going, Oh, it's like a bit of a riff, and then the bloody characters start watching it in the film. It's actually directly referenced.

Lily: 22:40

God. I completely forgot that that happens. That's

James: 22:43

this direct this, this actual scene, they're watching it on the TV, I was like, holy shit.

Lily: 22:48

I wish I could claim that was some kind of meta decision, but I just completely forgot about that

James: 22:53

Oh, you should have absolutely cut this bit out and claimed it as a meta decision. I was like, oh, very, very interesting, Lily, what you've done here.

Lily: 23:01

was part of I had I actually, so my, so initially my three choices included season's greetings. Which, yes, which was a film from just a couple of years ago with Kristen Stewart, where she and her girlfriend go back to her girlfriend's family for Christmas, but she hasn't come out to her family yet. So they have to pretend they're just friends and that they, and there's like an elaborate lie about Kristen not having family. And that's why she's coming for Christmas, not because they're a couple. And I think they're even engaged, you know, they're quite serious. It seems like a very much, quite a shitty, like low budget, made for Netflix kind of Christmas movie, like you don't expect much, but actually, and I'm not the biggest Kristen Stewart fan, but actually it was surprisingly enjoyable and funny, and so that was like, came to mind like, oh yeah, that would be great, and then I realised that all three of my films were about dysfunctional families with like multiple siblings, which is obviously something that I'm like preoccupied with, but I thought, okay, no, I need to, I need to give James a bit more complete. I don't want, I don't want to tell him myself too much. So that's why I opted for the third choice that we'll come on to next rather than that. But. There's definitely a theme here of what I'm interested in, but also of Christmas films.

James: 24:16

watching these two films, watching Meet Me in St. Louis, Avatar. It's all this kind of interpersonal sibling bickering rubbish.

Lily: 24:26

It's funny because my siblings and I were, of course, when we were younger, we, we squabbled and bickered and got into famously quite violent physical fights at various times, me and my sisters. Um, but we really aren't like that now. We all get on pretty well. So it's perhaps I'm kind of, it's kind of like feeding into my, like, childhood nostalgia. It's like, yes, I like to see that kind of thing because that, that, that was what was keeping me going throughout my childhood. That's what made my childhood.

James: 24:54

Oh, I see now, I

Lily: 24:56

Maybe. Yeah, perhaps. Okay. So Family Stone wasn't What was it? I feel like so far, I'm not really doing a good job of convincing you that Christmas films are the

James: 25:07

And I'm watching and thinking, James, don't be a goddamn bar humbug. Come on, James. Snap out of it. Snap out of it. Like, I probably enjoyed it a bit more than Meet Me in St. Louis. Just because it, it, it, I know, which I, I hate

Lily: 25:19

I actually thought you would love Meet Me in St. Louis, because it's a classic.

James: 25:23

What it made me realize is that it, there's nothing, I'm not going to give Meet Me in St. Louis like some kind of dressing down because that's not right. It is a very good film. It's very well made. It's just one of those things where I think just personal taste. It just didn't quite hit the person. It looked beautiful. Judy Garland was like a really charismatic star. The songs are great, but just the whole thing's coming together. It definitely made me realize I'm more a singing in the rain person when it comes to musical. I need it to be a little bit more deconstructed and I need it to be like a slightly meta element to why they're going into song and dance, you

Lily: 25:55

Which, which also the Red Shoes is very much kind of a meta film because it's, I thought it would just be a straight adaptation of the Hans Christian Andersen's story, but it's actually about them putting on a show of that and then, and then kind of goes from there, which it's a good hook. It does bring you in when there are those additional layers to something. So yeah, that makes sense. It makes sense.

James: 26:16

I tell you what, though. I was thinking bar humbug, boo to Christmas and Christmas movies. And then finally I was like, ah, Rudy Mara in a little Santa's hat. Christmas is finally here.

Lily: 26:29

I'm sorry, this is perfect. We started the season, with you talking about Rooney Mara in a bonnet. And now here we are with Rooney Mara in a Santa hat. Yeah, this is my gift to you at Christmas, James.

James: 26:41

like circular storytelling. You know, we bring it back,

Lily: 26:44

We bring it back, Rooney Mara in headwear. So Carol, yeah

James: 26:50

seen this before. Long overdue a, a, a watch, especially after watching May December. Cause you know, everyone who's seen Carol says it's a great film. And it is, it, it's a wonderful film. I think May to December is a lesser work of Todd Haynes. Whereas Carol is like clearly a masterwork. I think a director, this is like even at the height of its powers, it feels to me anyway, like all the ideas, the themes, the execution, all comes together in a very satisfying way.

Lily: 27:16

you know what? I think I think you're right in terms of like cinematic craft it all it feels really like you might simply must see on a big screen. In fact, I, I did have tickets to go see it, but I'm not gonna be able to make it, like, it's time and cash, Yeah, I see what you mean, but I, but I, I don't know, with, like, May, December, and, and Todd Haynes other movies, that something about them being, in a sense, like, a bit more scrappy, almost? Unless, I don't know, something about them being, In a way, something other than like a major cinematic, visual spectacle that I like about them. Something about that book, but Carol, but you're right,

James: 27:56

but that's, but it's interesting. It's interesting you should say that because there, I do think there is a, a certain scrappy visual aesthetic to Carol, which I really relate to, especially having seen, Make Me in St. Louis, which is this beautiful technicolor film shot on this process of described with three different black and white film stocks, all in 35 millimeter. There's a richness to the color, the vividness of the image. Now, Carol, on the other hand, that was shot on super 16 which means it's a little bit grainy. It's not quite as glossy as 35 millimeter. It has an almost documentary feel to it. So what I loved watching Carol is that, uh, Meet Me in St. Louis was, the ultimate drama based around observing societal norms, and this is what, these are the dramas you will have if you exist in the nuclear family and you play by the rules and it's beautiful, it's technicolor, there's songs, there's dancing, and it has a happy ending in the end. It's not Technicolor. It doesn't look quite as glossy. It's almost got a documentary, slightly dowdy feel to it. The colors don't pop. The characters don't break into song. In fact, they're trapped by their surroundings. The compositions, they're often. To the side of a frame, viewed through a doorway, reflections in windows. They're almost the opposite of these vivid, technical characters. They're like ghosts who can't really exist in the world. Societal norms are repressing these people into a little corner.

Lily: 29:13

James, that was a beautiful summation. Very good analysis. Love that.

James: 29:18

I'm out. And that's Screamy

Lily: 29:20

And that's it, we're done. I feel like we should, in case you haven't seen it, just to kind of, I'll preface that by saying yes, because it's a, Carol is based on a novel set in 1952, I think The Price of Salt, I think it's called, and it stars Cate Blanchett and Rudy Mara as women, yes, in 1952, who fall in love and, the struggle of that relationship Growing sort of bit by bit and the kind of ramifications for, for them and the people around them,

James: 29:51

They have a relationship, but they are existing in 1950s America. So they're all living a lie. Carol play by Cate Blanchett she has a child with a husband and that's all estranged. So everybody's living secret lives.

Lily: 30:01

Because there is again, there's something of the melodrama in it as well.

James: 30:05

Compared to May December where it was, the melodrama was amped up and I didn't quite understand the tonal balance, it just felt a little bit off, here in, in Carol it just feels seamless, I get the tone, it's Christmas time but there's not much to celebrate,

Lily: 30:17

yeah, and something of it being, because Rooney Mara's character is, works in a department store, and something about the, the Christmas ness of of shops, the artifice of that. How that feels very at odds with how you might actually be feeling and yeah the darkness of the season and whatever emotional stuff you're feeling it, it kind of works well to reflect

James: 30:43

And I wonder as well, watching it, I wonder as well, is this a deliberate riff on the It Girl or It that we watch? You know, it's, it's a, a slightly more moneyed person falls for a shop worker and they begin

Lily: 30:54

That's such a good comparison. Yeah, they'd be a great duo to watch together good double bill.

James: 31:01

What I love about Carol, it's like what life is like if you are an outsider, but in a world where you've got to hide being an outsider, it doesn't feel like the world of Meet Me in St. Louis, which I know it's, you should make direct comparisons, but just, just as far as the stories they're telling, I think it's a good contrast.

Lily: 31:16

Well, I'm glad you enjoyed Carol. I'm glad to give you something that you can sink your teeth into. Thank God I didn't go for Season's Greetings instead. You would have killed, but it's actually, you're right. Meet Mitz and Louie, then Carol, then Season's Greetings. It's like the, it's actually a perfect trinity of the idealized family and then the actual, the reality of the repression of a very like, repressive society and then where we get to in the modern day with dysfunctional families and that coming up against, like, feelings about sexuality. It's perfect. Perfect trio.

James: 31:50

Your films made me think about the, the role of the family unit of, what it must be like to have, outsider views, in a world that doesn't accept or promote them, you know, like that. That was my festive filmmaking experience. How would you, how would you categorize or summarize the films that I, that I suggested for you for Christmas?

Lily: 32:08

You're much more clever than me because I didn't have a, uh, a thesis for the three. I, I, but I had lots of thoughts on all three. So what you, where would you like to start James?

James: 32:19

I mean, I don't have a thesis for these three either, I guess.

Lily: 32:22

We'll, we'll workshop it now. We'll come, we'll

James: 32:24

Okay. So to me, it was more films that remind me of. Christmas time. So for me growing up before DVDs and streaming made things easy, the biggest way you would see a new film was waiting for the films to come on at Christmas. So you would get the radio times, scour them, get excited when you see something. So, so there's an, that's the kind of vibe I'm going for. It's more of the kind of, oh, I'm excited to watch this film. And that film has an aura of Christmas time around it.

Lily: 32:50

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Okay. So which would you like to discuss first?

James: 32:54

Uh, let's go with one that I just feel is like, for me, the archetypal, uh, because I think there's one where I've messed up and we'll get to that, and maybe it shouldn't have been on my list. But, but

Lily: 33:04

no, I think it was, it was a fabulous list, but go on.

James: 33:07

Jurassic Park, I just think is the classic, like, it's Christmas time, something good on the telly, Jurassic Park.

Lily: 33:13

It's a great choice because it is definitely. The high watermark of family entertainment, um, done to the best possible like standard, as you would say, uh, highest possible standard, uh, very festive for, for just for, because of that, and yet is of course not set at Christmas, not really much to do of Christmas, though, people scoff at Die Hard being a Christmas movie, but at least it's literally set at Christmas, whereas Dressabout has no connection, but it does give you that feeling definitely

James: 33:43

Yeah, it feels like we've had a lot of a Christmas dinner and we're all kind of got big tums And we just need something to entertain us and kind of draw us in and you sit down Drinking more red wine and watching Jurassic Park.

Lily: 33:55

Yeah, I mean as you say that I'm like maybe I'm gonna watch it again, I watched it three days ago But maybe I'm gonna watch it today. I'm so tired It's just what I need to see me, but you know what because I haven't watched it in a long time in a few years So it was very fun to watch it because, seeing Laura Dern, always a pleasure, loved seeing her in this role. And I was watching, I was like, ah, this is actually very much an anti, it's ahead of its time as an anti tech movie. You know, all this talk about the supercomputers in the film. And how we, how this incredible technology, which is so funny to watch because it's looks very poor for the most part, and, and of course, you know, all of this incredible, pioneering technological work has leads to this. absolute disaster. It's a great lesson to be learned for the future that unfortunately we, perhaps we have not heeded.

James: 34:48

It's the classic, you know, man plays God, ignores all the warnings. It'll be right. Turns out it's not right. Oh, well.

Lily: 34:54

And on top of that, it is a slightly feminist film, I would say, because all the, all the dinosaurs in it are women to begin with. And there's when Jeff Goldblum says, like, finds a way, I'm thinking women find a way. You try and keep a woman down and she will find a way, take over. Exactly. And then there are those moments where, uh, where Richard Attenborough's character tells Laura Dern, like, Oh, I should come with you. And she's like, uh, no, I can do this on my own. We'll talk about this later. I, I love it. They try and control women and women find a way. And it's also, and, and women throughout the film, a key to, to saving the day. So I was very pleased with it. It's aged incredibly well.

James: 35:41

I think it's an immaculately crafted film that Yeah. Holds it well. It's a roller looking adventure. I don't think many people could take issue with it, really. I, I think if you wanted entertaining Hollywood blockbuster, then this is like a definitive example of that kind of thing.

Lily: 35:55

yeah. It's just a big tickle around. Perfect.

James: 35:58

Yeah, excellent. So I do feel bad. I do feel like if I were to give you this list again, I might have tweaked it because I chucked a Nolan in there because I thought, well, you know, I've got to throw a Nolan in every now and again, but I feel like it should have been the Prestige. I think the Prestige slightly more Christmas vibes than the one I gave you. Do apologize.

Lily: 36:14

would have been great because I haven't really seen The Prestige. I think I did see it once, but I don't really remember it. But,

James: 36:21

that's what I thought as well. It's also a good opportunity. So apologies about that one, Ali,

Lily: 36:24

no, no,

James: 36:25

reflection.

Lily: 36:26

I'm, I'm happy to have, I'm happy you chose The Dark Knight because it's now my turn to your choice.

James: 36:33

Finally, finally, the gloves are off.

Lily: 36:37

No, I mean, I actually very much enjoyed watching it. Christopher Nolan did a great job with what the task was, which is to make a superhero movie. You're, I understand that there is, there are certain norms of superhero movie that must be respected. And one of them is, Clunky dialogue, and cheesy characterization. There's so much that is corny in this film, and it's amazing that this is like, I know, I know intellectually that like, this is the dark superhero movie that changed everything and made superhero movies better, but it's like, good lord. Like, it just, but that's just kind of like the first scene, you're like, Oof, god, ugh, what's going on? This is like, so jarring to hear what they're saying, this is so But then you remind yourself, well, this is a film about a man who dresses up in a cape and like cat ears and runs around at night trying to save this, this town that this, that really everyone like, let's just agree to like walk away from like, let Gotham go guys to get over it,

James: 37:41

Should the joke have just been allowed to

Lily: 37:43

maybe

James: 37:45

just, re

Lily: 37:47

I don't even know, like maybe not, but

James: 37:50

you're quite right I don't come to my superhero movies for them. I want spectacle. I want well told story and spectacle. Give me

Lily: 37:56

But why, but I just don't understand why you don't want those things, James. I don't understand why you come to this film at all. Like, why not go to a film that's like, well made, and like, enjoyable? I mean, no, sorry, you do find it enjoyable, but, but you know what I mean? I'm just, it surprises me every time that I'm like, why do you want to be here? Hmm.

James: 38:17

because I find it a well made, well cinematically told, a version of a superhero flick. There's interesting uses of cinematography, of His editing's the most linear out of every Christopher Nolan film. There's hardly any non linear storytelling out of all of his films. There's a lot of technique to have my, for someone who's a bit of a filmmaker nerd, it's filmmaking, nerdery stuff packaged in a superhero film. So it's like, ah, great.

Lily: 38:41

So for me, I clearly love things to do with family. But for you, it must be some, there must be something in the superhero thing that it interests you. Because obviously, otherwise you could go, there are so many other Christopher Nolan films you could be watching to get that fix of well made, interestingly edited. So what is it about the superhero element that you, that gets you going?

James: 39:00

It's a busman's holiday, it just means that superhero films exist in a world of fantasy, so automatically, there's a distance from the real world, so, I want that disassociative, uh, step when I watch a Christmas feeling film, which is there in Jurassic Park. Superhero films, they've got that built into it. You know, we're not set in the real world. We're in a fantasy world, even though Christopher Nolan tries to ground his fantasy world.

Lily: 39:21

So the fantasy element of, of these films you enjoy, because like, because you always tell to me, you said like, oh, well, watching a, they may not be the best made films, like some of these superhero films, but it's like easy watch, like, just like turn off your brain and it's like fun entertainment. But for me, it's not fun, doesn't turn off my brain because I'm like, this is fun. I'm just, it pulls me out of it if I do, like, it's not, I don't, but obviously, but something in it that you do find enjoyable and is it just like the, yeah, the fantasy element, the kind of world building, the

James: 39:55

It's his point. It's more the directing, the way the story's pulled together, the scripting, the pacing,

Lily: 40:01

but it's not, I don't think it's well done in this film because like, it's so, yeah, I think it's definitely, it's a fun film to watch because of Heath Ledger is like so, so phenomenal. And of course there's like, it's his last completed film, so it's like emotional watching in a weird way. So I enjoyed it for that.

James: 40:20

and the only heath ledger performance I've ever seen in a film, which is, uh, unusual, I think. I've never seen him do anything else.

Lily: 40:26

And I've, I've seen a few of what you don't watch 10 things. I hate about you. Oh, darling God. What about a night? Okay. But he actually, but I looked up all of his movies after watching that. He hasn't done that many, like the films. He done like there was like half of them were clearly not good films, you know, like he was like fight get finding his way I think it's amazing that this film came out that moment where that that film was like. really would have been the peak that would have made him go into the absolute stratosphere, and it's so sad what happened. It's like watching that movie, that first scene, I'm like, always like, shook. I'm like, I cannot believe this is a Christopher Nolan film. This is like, terrible stuff. And then,

James: 41:07

the, the, the bank heist.

Lily: 41:09

Yeah, it's like the, the, it's more the dialogue stuff, the dialogue is like, shocking to me. And then I just kind of like, turn off that part of my brain and be like, you know what, this is a superhero movie, so there are certain conventions around how people speak to each other and interact, it's like, none of this is realistic, so you, you can't expect, there's normalising it through dialogue,

James: 41:28

That opening sequence, I'm just like, wow, this looks fucking awesome on the IMAX. The action's banging. Oh my God. It's so kinetic. The camera work. And like, those are the things that are dialing me into it. Then when I watch it on home video, that's just triggering the memory of how awesome that is an experience feels. So like, the dialogue, they're talking about bank high stuff and something to do with the ju Like, whatever.

Lily: 41:50

Well, no, I think it comes, when you come to Batman, right, because Christopher Nolan does really good dialogue a lot of the time. It's maybe not his, like, number one, like, like, strongest thing. But, in other movies, like, in Oppenheimer, it was very wordy, but it, I felt, that never wasn't, like, it all

James: 42:10

I think that's one of his best scripts, because I don't think he's the best dialogue writer. I think he's very good structurally, but Oppenheimer was, yeah, especially because he's the sole author of that as well, so he wrote it all. Whereas with Batman, he's got David Goyer writing, but yeah. I do take the point that all this dialogue stuff just doesn't work for you, but that's part of the fantasy film, I'm just Going into a world where people talk about things that nobody else would talk about in reality But I'm not here for that. I'm here for Gotham. I want

Lily: 42:36

Because, but for me, like, that dialogue, I can see the joints in the script, so I'm like, so I'm watching a film now where we're trying to get from A to B to B to C so I can't just be in, to me, it's not, the world building is not successful because I can see all the,

James: 42:52

you can see all the joins.

Lily: 42:53

not just that. It's the fact that it goes on and on and on. And I'm like, there must be a streamlined way that we could, cause there are so many moments where it feels like it should be the end of the film. And it's like, it's fucking not. There's like another hour to go. And so. But having said all of that, once I like, was like, Oh God, what's going on? And then I'm just going to roll with it. And you laugh at the some of the silly bits and how shit the women in the film are like, uh, characterized and all that stuff. You just have to go

James: 43:22

don't yeah, you can't you can't go to Christopher Nolan film expect rounded female characters,

Lily: 43:27

No, it's, it's very disappointing, but. I will say, I also came away from it thinking this is very much a love letter to excellent employees. This is for, this is a film to watch for, this is fantasy fiction for senior management because Lucius and Alfred, literally, they could not be beat for like excellent high standards of work, delivery, you know, what, what, whatever, whatever. Batman. What's his name? The, the non Batman man. Bruce Wayne, thank you. Whatever Bruce Wayne wants, Lucius and Alfred will deliver. They're there. They're giving him, without him even knowing it's what he needs. They are, it's just like, excellence. I hope they both get good Christmas bonuses. But I had a good time with it.

James: 44:15

That's basically the lowest baseline I'm hoping for for these Christmas films. Having a good

Lily: 44:20

And that's, yeah, and I think definitely this is the moment in the year where you do just want to like, kick back with

James: 44:26

Yeah. Don't make me think too hard, Lily. That's what I'm hoping you're getting from my film selections here.

Lily: 44:32

I don't know if that's true about our next one. You can introduce it. What's our,

James: 44:36

Well,

Lily: 44:36

your third choice?

James: 44:37

I was desperately thinking I must have something that has a feel of Christmas to it, because those two, Jurassic Park and Dark Knight, there's nothing to do with Christmas about any of them apart from just my thoughts. But Groundhog Day has a bit of snow.

Lily: 44:50

It's snowy, it's wintry, and also it is, it is very much in the tradition of Christmas stories in terms of a grumpy Scrooge type character who learns a lesson. So per Honey, perfect choice. Obsessed. Obsessed. One of my favourite films, so I'm

James: 45:08

yeah, same here. same here. This is like an absolute classic. Always delivers every time I come back to it. You know, I always say that you come back to a film after a few years and maybe you've changed and you re evaluate the film. But this, yeah,

Lily: 45:22

Yeah. yeah, it's definitely that. I haven't, I, again, a film I watched loads as a kid and it was great to watch it again after a few years. And it's a very important film in terms of cultural significance. It's up there with The Matrix and Sliding Doors because the phrase Groundhog Day. Comes from this movie. So very, very important. Very important. If you don't know, I'm sure you guys will do, but Uh, it is the, it stars Bill Murray as a man who is such an arsehole, the most sarcastic, cynical, grumpy, self involved man and who is also a weatherman and him and his team, his producer, Andy McDowell, they go to a small town to film the, the annual festival of the Groundhog Day. And after that, every day, Bill Murray wakes up and it's that same day again, a day that he hates. And he kind of, yeah, goes on a journey of, of, of dealing with that.

James: 46:19

The script is incredible. Just like the, the, the thought that went into how are we going to structure, how are we going to take advantage of the fact that he lives the same? What would you do or what would you like to think you could get away with? You know, all of it's explored. Like you'd rob a bank because he'd figure out how to do it without killing anybody. You'd, you'd figure out how to chat up the woman that you fancy, because he could keep reliving the same day and getting your. You know, all the things that you might imagine you could do with that premise.

Lily: 46:44

but it's, it's, it's perfect because the characterization of, of Bill Murray's role is really excellent because he's so cynical and unpleasant. So the worst kind of person to have this situation. So he takes it, he takes advantage and you know, yeah, the scenes where he's seducing this woman by finding out bits of information about her and then working it and working it, manipulating her to have sex with her. It's actually quite dark and like unpleasant, but it's so important to have that because you see him attempt to be manipulative to get stuff and that doesn't lead him anywhere good. You know, he just carries on having the same day and it doesn't give him any satisfaction. satisfaction. So he goes on a very genuine journey. You really see him as the film progresses. It feels very earnt that he does all the things you would do if you, if you had this opportunity and also if you were kind of the worst version of yourself. Try all that out. And then, and then when that doesn't like bring you, you see the, uh, the kind of pointlessness of all of that. And then he goes on a genuine journey of like, Okay, what can I do to make this fucking crazy life I now have worth living? And he, so he genuinely comes out of it as a good person. It is, it is Scrooge. It is, it's a wonderful life. And it's, it's so satisfying to see that payoff. Because watching it this time, I was like, whoa. He's actually, from the get go, he's a bit of a creep. The way he speaks to Andy McDowall at certain times. And he is so unpleasant. But it's so important that he has that. That those real teeth to his, like, bite, you know? Because then when he comes out the other side as a good person, it is, yeah, so, so earned. And hilarious the whole way through. Such, all the, all the side character, all the small parts are so well characterized. They're so funny and odd. Yes! Yeah. Ned Ryerson and the woman at the, bed and breakfast. I don't know. It's just like everyone along the way It's such a perfect film.

James: 48:39

Yeah. It is, isn't it? Like, the casting's perfect. The script's flawless. It all just comes together. It's a classic. Classic.

Lily: 48:47

and I've always been very rude about Andy McDowell because I I feel that in, um, Four Wings and a Funeral She does come across as pretty wooden, but actually it made me reevaluate that because I think she's actually really, really good in this film.

James: 49:02

Yeah. I just think she's a little low key. A little understated, I would say,

Lily: 49:06

but it's, but it's great, but her, but, and I, and I have to say I like Propsto because I feel the chemistry between her and Bill Murray, which, I don't know, I feel like, I feel like it's a very good action job. And it just makes me think that Richard Curtis, like he just underwrote her in, in employing sort of funeral and actually. Justice for Andy Murray. Andy Murray? Andy McDowell. Andy McDowell. She did, she, she did a great job. So thank you. Very good choice. I'm so

James: 49:38

ha ha

Lily: 49:39

have got to re watch that.

James: 49:41

Woo, I'm glad that we both had some choices in there that we both can unequivocally enjoy

Lily: 49:46

Absolutely. So there you have it. If you're feeling Christmassy this year, watch Carol or The Family Stone or Meet Me in St. Louis, except for if you're James. And, and if you wanted something un Christmassy, Jurassic Park, The Dark Knight, and definitely Groundhog Day. There are our recommendations.

James: 50:07

yeah, absolutely If

Lily: 50:08

All right. So that is it guys. Have a lovely, lovely Christmas. We will be back in two weeks time for the final episode of the season where we'll be giving you some recommendations for the new year to finish up.

James: 50:22

And if you could leave us a like or leave us a review, it all helps get the podcast out to a larger audience. And yeah, have a wonderful Christmas time.

Lily: 50:28

Bye.

James: 50:29

Bye.