Baby Face: Pre-Code Horniness and the Original Sugar Baby

We’re going back to the horniest years in Hollywood history for another scandalous pre-coder; Baby Face, the 1933 movie that was so shocking it solidified cinema’s censorship for the next 30 years. 

Watch it for free here. 

References

Will Hays IRL

You Must Remember This’ episode on Will Hays and “Pre-Code” Hollywood  

Wes Anderson Talks Early Hollywood Censorship in ‘TCM Picks’ Video for Barbara Stanwyck’s ‘Baby Face’ by Etan Vlessing for The Hollywood Reporter

How the Catholic Church censored Hollywood's Golden Age by Vox on YouTube

Baby Face: The End Of The Pre-Code Era by Paul J. Bradley for Classic Film Journal

Remembering Hollywood's Hays Code, 40 Years On by Bob Mondello for NPR

‘Tracing Hollywood’s Legacy of Self-Censorship through a Comparative Analysis of the Film Baby Face (1933) in its Censored and Uncensored Forms’ by Morgan B. Lockhart

From femme fatale to cattle rancher: how Barbara Stanwyck bucked convention by Pamela Hutchinson for The Guardian

Barbara Stanwyck: 10 essential films by Lynsey Ford for BFI

Barbara Stanwyck’s NY Times obituary 

Film Pharmacy

Old Boy (2004) dir. by Park Chan-wook

Killer Joe (2012) dir. by William Friedkin

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Transcript

Lily: 0:00

And this is a man who, because of Nietzsche, is telling this woman to be a slag, basically. Welcome to Groovy Movies. My name is Lily

James: 0:17

Austin. And my name's James Brailsford. Hello! Welcome

Lily: 0:21

everyone to our new fortnightly release schedule. I hope you enjoyed Jane's one man bonus episode from last

James: 0:28

week. I had to stop myself going mad with the power. I was like, great. This could be my six hour Christopher Nolan masterclass.

Lily: 0:37

If we ever get on Patreon, you should do that. I actually, I loved it so much. I listened to it like three times. Your voice is so soothing.

James: 0:47

Well, you know, I want to, I want to soothe you into this new season. Fortnightly release schedule don't know, you know, upset. You're just going to ease you into it.

Lily: 0:53

Yeah. So yeah, if you, if you missed that from last week, please do go back and listen. It's, it's, it's not, not very long, but just announcing that we are moving to, uh, releasing episodes every two weeks. Um, so hopefully that will mean that the quality continues to be great and we can be very topical. As of this episode today, talking about the Oscars from 10 days ago.

James: 1:17

You know, we can't hit every target,

Lily: 1:18

Lilith. Well, I think there are certain things where it's good to have a little moment to let it percolate. Once the dust has settled, what has really made a lasting

James: 1:26

impression? Yeah, which, which I don't know, has anything much. I felt like this year's Oscars were business as

Lily: 1:33

usual. No, I thought it was a new standard. Like the Oscars are so boring, but this time they really, they made sure to wrap, keep it to a tighter

James: 1:44

run time. The actual, the actual event.

Lily: 1:46

So the actual event was ratcheting along good stuff, good stuff. And we got to enjoy. I'm just Ken. I forgot, I nearly forgot the name then.

James: 1:54

Yeah. Which was, which was a highlight I have to say. Yeah.

Lily: 1:57

If you haven't seen that, Ryan Gosling doing a Marilyn Monroe esque take on, do you, did you get the reference of the gentlemen prefer blondes?

James: 2:07

Absolutely. Yeah. It was a Diamonds are Girls best friend riff. Is that right?

Lily: 2:10

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Ryan Gosling in that beautiful pink suit. I just love how he played it so seriously, you know. Like that's, we want it

James: 2:19

to be Ken. isn't it? It's

Lily: 2:21

Ernest. And that's what makes it funny, you know. Yeah. He, yeah, he really played it. And Slash had a cameo, love

James: 2:30

that. I mean, yeah, that, that, that, you know, always good to see the ageless Slash. I mean, that, that's a look that lasts you throughout your entire life, you know. He will look the same until the day he dies.

Lily: 2:41

Absolutely. So, okay, but in terms of, The actual awards and who won. You've alluded to this. You weren't impressed?

James: 2:51

No, no, it's not that I wasn't impressed. That's completely not, not, not what I meant. It just was, whereas last year you had what I would call the plucky outsider, everything everywhere all at once. This time around we've got, you know, it's the more, it's the, the kind of things that we expected to win. So they're not unworthy films. I mean, I think Oppenheimer deserved its wins that it got, but everyone was expecting Oppenheimer to win. It wasn't, it wasn't a big surprise, you know? No, but I

Lily: 3:17

have to say when I, when I was editing our episode on the Oscars, I was a bit. I was a bit disappointed in myself. I think like, Oh, it's a bit boring. It's every, all these films are good. There are no surprises. This is actually an incredible year for film. Just the fact that two, at least two of the films that were nominated for best picture, uh, films that most people have seen, or a lot of people have seen Barbie and Offenheimer, that is unusual. The Oscars usually talking about movies that only a few, you know, Real film buffs have gone to see they're not mainstream movies. And I think that's a real testament to the fact that We are out of this the mess that was the kind of superhero era of the last

James: 3:59

10 years I think we're out of the frying pan into the fire lily, but yes, why? Well, because there's no because because we've had this emerging from underneath the clouds to see a little bit of golden ray of sun Peeking through right? Yeah, which is like barbie and ken Uh, suddenly movies are back in the pop culture, which, you know, that kind of stuff and not Marvel movies, not superhero, but there's now no content. There's now everyone's hyped. Everyone's happy to be back in the cinema. There's now a drought of big releases to kind of follow that up. Yeah. Unfortunately, with this next, the rest of this year, there's, there's nothing big doing. That's not to say there's not any interesting smaller films, but the kind of content. Barbies and Oppenheimers aren't, uh, Dune was it for this year, really? I was gonna say, apart from Dune, and that's gone. Which is great, but that's just the one. There's like, there's no, we're heading into the summer with no, kind of, of the usual tent poles.

Lily: 4:51

Yeah, I mean, that's true. That's true. But as long as we can get through this year, and cinema, you know, Will always survive. It is the most enduring art form. There have been many, many strikes in film history. We'll be okay. But yeah, this year might be a bit dry, but next year, I'm excited for 2025.

James: 5:08

It's not the strikes that are the problem. It's the fact that just viewing habits have changed. change. So what's what's completely unique is that there have been strikes in the past, but what there's never been is such a proliferation of other choices of entertainment. So it's now fighting for attention with other forms of mass entertainment. That's, that's why I think it's just like, like, I don't want there to be a lost generation who just aren't bothered about films because then it's, then it will go the way of the dodo, you know.

Lily: 5:35

But it's only, it will only, it's only a year and so many, and kids were very into movies last year, you know, Saltburn, there was so much talk about it. And speaking of, let's talk about the Razzies, where that while Oppenheimer succeeded at the Oscars, a different, a different film came up at the Razzies, James. Don't

James: 5:53

make me watch this, Lily. Don't make me watch this. This, I can't. Remind,

Lily: 5:56

remind me what it's called.

James: 5:58

Oh God, is it, I don't know, is it called Winnie the Pooh Blood and Honey or something like that? Yes!

Lily: 6:03

Yes! Oh it is? Yes!

James: 6:05

That was me just half guessing, was it something like, yeah, there we go, Blood and Honey.

Lily: 6:09

Yes, Winnie the Pooh Blood and Honey, yeah, the film that was made, Because the original Winnie the Pooh books came out of Copyright. Copyright, thank

James: 6:19

you. Went into the public domain, didn't they? Went

Lily: 6:21

into the public domain. And this particular filmmaker, film company, that is their specialty. They like to make horrors out of Oh,

James: 6:28

so the company's got film. Previous track record, right, right. Yeah,

Lily: 6:31

I forget what they were, but similar kinds of things. They really, Oh, uh, like Brothers Grimm type things. They like to make truly horrifying movies based on children's fairy tales. And now they've moved into the world of Winnie the Pooh. And I, this completely passed me by, but this was very much an internet thing. So, I mean, pros and cons to how film viewing has evolved because this film kind of went viral online before it was even finished being made. And so because of all this excitement around it, the film company got more money so they could go back and reshoot more scenes. Broaden out the options for their sequel, which will be coming out apparently

James: 7:11

towards the year. Oh, in the Winnie the Pooh horror cinematic universe.

Lily: 7:14

Excellent. Yeah, apparently a major character was killed off originally and then they changed that so they could do more in the sequel. Oh,

James: 7:20

they want to bring them back. Yeah. They don't want to limit their options.

Lily: 7:24

And the film has, has gone on from strength to strength because having, it was meant to be, you know, this tiny movie, I don't think it was even going to go into cinemas, but because of the buzz it did go to cinemas in some regions, and it won five, five Razzies this year, it sweeped all the categories it was nominated

James: 7:40

in. Well, I mean, at least, at least the filmmakers can genuinely say, uh, award winning film, you know, that'll look good on the old, uh, poster title, won't it? Yeah, I

Lily: 7:49

think there are certain films where a Razzie is only a good thing. That's the thing, the Razzie's is quite an, it's not the nicest of awards, it's not got the best kind of feeling behind it, but I think in this kind of situation, it can actually be a real benefit.

James: 8:07

Yeah, I don't know if it's just, it's one of these things where just the hype and the meme is definitely the most fun part of the film rather than actually having to sit through and watching it. I suspect that is the least entertaining part of the package, but, but that's me just assuming. Yeah,

Lily: 8:20

we haven't watched it. We

James: 8:22

don't know. We don't know.

Lily: 8:24

Please don't write in and ask us to watch

James: 8:26

this. But I wonder if that's going to be, you know, are we entering an era of, A slightly more cinematic bad movies, you know, so we've had Madam Web that is still sticking around cinemas. It's, I think it's slowly gaining traction as a, like, this is trash. You have to see it. And I wonder if Winnie the Pooh will get in there. So suddenly cinemas are, I don't know if this is a good thing, but cinemas are the place that you can see really bad movies these days. Well,

Lily: 8:51

sure. I mean, look at the room. It's, it's, it's long and enduring, um, runtime.

James: 8:57

God, are we going to be doing a Madam Web special in a few years time?

Lily: 9:00

No, it's not. I don't, well, maybe we will. I don't know. Again, I haven't seen it. I can't possibly say, but I think

James: 9:06

it's too early to say. I thought that too, Lilly. I thought that too. I just thought it's the wrong kind of bad, but I'm getting a feeling. I think it's

Lily: 9:14

more that there just aren't actually all that many movies in the cinema right now. Like I looked the other day and I was like, well, there's not that much on. I'm not missing a lot if I don't go this week. Um, yeah. Okay. So that was the Razzies. and the Oscars. Shall we move to the main event?

James: 9:31

Absolutely. It's been lovely to chat through this, Lily, but I think our listeners are raring to go. They haven't got time for this dilly dallying. Let's get down to business. Let's talk about some 1930s black and white Hollywood movie.

Lily: 9:43

So to Babyface.

James: 9:45

Absolutely. Onto Babyface.

Lily: 9:47

Came out in 1933, directed by Alfred E. Green, and interestingly, written by a man called Daryl F. Zanuck, under a pseudonym of Mark Canfield, this is depression era America, right? And so, rather than paying, Writers, a substantial fee for that story, senior producers at these studios were writing their own scripts and just and paying them to them for a dollar. He was paid a dollar for that script. Then obviously he's the producer on the film, which I think you can tell a little bit. That the script wasn't written by a writer, in a sense. Yeah, yeah. It's quite sparse. Yeah. But I mean, it's a good story. It's a really good story. So kudos to him. But actually there's, and there's a long history, right? Of writers being, also being producers. The two things are often

James: 10:32

quite intertwined. Yeah, I, I, but I, I didn't clock that at all. I knew he'd been the producer on this, but I didn't realize he'd written the script under a pseudonym. So that was very interesting.

Lily: 10:39

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. James, I have to say, I'm like very pleased with you for choosing this film. Thanks. Excellent, excellent choice.

James: 10:47

Thanks. Like I, I, I not really, I don't know much about pre code film, which is why I wanted to do it for the podcast. Right. Cause you know, it's always something that sounded interesting. And then you kind of compiled a little list of films that we could talk about. And I did a bit of research as well. And it was just, I don't know much about any of them, but I just thought, okay, this one is It stars Barbara Stanwyck, and she's really good in Double Indemnity, which I have seen. So it'd be interesting to see what she was like in her early career. And then reading the plot summary about basically, essentially, a woman who sleeps her way to the top will be the quickest and crudest way of summarizing it. I was like, okay, that sounds like it'd be a lot of fun, slash there'd probably be a lot to talk about and unpack here. So, uh, yeah.

Lily: 11:27

Well, we'll see. This film was, uh, instrumental in the move from pre code to full on code era.

James: 11:34

Again, which, which was accidental rather than Was it?

Lily: 11:37

I was like, yeah, really solid choice. I found so many undergraduate theses about Babyface and its involvement in the pre code

James: 11:45

era. Sorry, I really should have, I really should have played it like I knew all of this stuff. No, it was in the process of researching. I was the same as well. Yeah.

Lily: 11:52

No, that's genius. Your instincts are obviously very, very good. Yeah,

James: 11:56

no, they've been finely tuned over decades. It's like, there's something here, there's something here.

Lily: 12:01

So let's talk about what exactly the precode era is. What is precode, before we get to what precode horniness is, though I guess the two things are

James: 12:09

interlinked. Yeah, I mean, like I only had a very, very rough knowledge of the, what the code was. And the more I've looked into it, it's just kind of very interesting. So, Basically, um, there was a, a group created, the National Board of Review, that was there to kind of enforce this code. That we'll get into the history of the code a little bit more, but basically the code placed restrictions on what could and couldn't be portrayed in films. And of course, the code was created by people who were Republicans, so it's a very right wing, very kind of, Catholic biased set of what you would call moral guidelines. So that was kind of enforced and that changed the kind of topics and the way that films could represent certain things on screen. And what I thought, you see, Lily, until I did this research, I thought the pre code era was just everything before the code, but when you research it, actually what is referred to the pre code era is actually a very tiny window. It's post the great depression of 29, and that meant that people weren't going into cinemas. So cinema attendant was. tanking. So studios like, how do we get the cinemas full again? Okay, let's fill them full of sex, violence, alcohol, and or drugs. Some combination of all the lot, like really, really tabloid sensational subjects. And so the theaters were getting rammed. They've, people were loving it. You know, it's, it got people pumped. Back into the cinema, but of course it was outraging the moral right. They were like, what the hell's happened to cinema? It's become this decadent art form. So we need to restrict it. So you basically got from 1930 when all the studios started pushing this much more extreme form of cinema, let's say. So 1933, when the kind of the pre code, because it started off being like more recommendations that weren't really enforced. Then like about, by 1933, they were being enforced. So that's the pre code era. Code kind of part of it.

Lily: 13:58

Yeah. Yeah. It's very interesting. Right. It's

James: 14:00

actually a lot. Oh, there's like the, the, the, there's the onion peels

Lily: 14:04

off. The onion peels. Yes. Because actually. Having listened to a very good episode on the Hayes Code on, you must remember this, the, uh, film podcast, so we'll link to that in the show notes. It's good for, for a proper deep dive. It actually turns out that that code of rules was suggested by, uh, Senior people at Paramount. Yeah,

James: 14:25

I didn't know that when I was eating your nose. That was interesting. Wild.

Lily: 14:29

So, over a steak dinner in 1921, Paramount had organized this meeting with other senior people in Hollywood because around this time there was a lot of outcry about the debauchery of

James: 14:43

Hollywood. So this is in the 20s, so this is before the Depression. Yeah.

Lily: 14:47

It was kind of, yeah, I guess sort of peak racy black era where Hollywood is still, it's a business, but it's the wild west. It's still the very, very early days of Hollywood and they're figuring things out. And there's a lot of scandal in Hollywood. And so Catholic pressure groups were saying, no, no, no, this cannot be. And so various states were coming up with their own. censorship guidelines will not even guide, they were just like cutting films and coming up with their own ideas. Which is a

James: 15:13

nightmare because each state's going to apply things differently. So your film's going to get butchered in multiple different ways. Exactly.

Lily: 15:19

One state will cut out a scene of someone smoking another of the different scene and it's just, it's, it's not ideal. And there was also the looming fear of federal censorship because that's what these groups were calling for. So paramounts. Senior guys were like, we've got to get ahead of this guys. Here is a list of 14 codes of conduct, including things like no suggestive dancing, no ridicule of religion, no lustful kissing, no miscegenation, which is awful. I had to Google that, that sexual activity between the racers, they were saying we can't have that. So some really like fraught stuff going on in there too. And they said if we follow this code then we'll be able to get ahead of it. But it was actually a bit of a smokescreen slide Smokescreen. That Paramount's plan was that we'll get these other studios to do that, but we won't do it ourselves. And then everyone will come see our films'cause ours will be the racial ones. Genius, genius. But unfortunately someone at Paramount leaked the list of the press. And then the National Border Review said, Oh, great. Thank you for that list. We'll start enforcing that. So Will Hayes was brought in at this point to oversee this review board because really, even though I always thought of the Hayes Code, Oh, this like The tyrant of morality have been there enforcing these rules. Actually, he was really a PR man that wanted to make the studios seem like they were following the law of the land, even though they weren't at

James: 16:44

all. Yeah, that's the thing. I didn't realize that, really, for the first few years, everything was business as usual, and he was just a front man. It was all a smokescreen. Because it's called the Hayes Code, you think he'd be the enforcer. It turns out when you look into it, there was a guy called Joseph Breen, who was appointed to enforce the code in 1934. Until the kind of dissolution of the code in the sixties, he was the man. He was the guy who would have the power to censor scripts. So Will Hayes was the public figure, but it was Joseph Breen who was the actual, the enforcer, the person who we should be like booing. He's the panto villain of this piece.

Lily: 17:19

Exactly, exactly, um, but to get to this Panto villain, we needed some films that would really push the envelope and Babyface was one such movie.

James: 17:28

Hell yeah!

Lily: 17:30

Okay, so let's talk about Babyface, enough of the history of the Hays Code, as much as I mean, I could talk about it for hours, it's like quite fascinating, but we're here to talk about Babyface. Yep. So, talk me through it, babe, should we start from the beginning? Who's, who's in the

James: 17:46

movie? Well, Barbara Stanwyck, it's, it's like, I, I've only seen her in, um, Double Indemnity, but Barbara, it's like an early role, if not one of the first roles for her, and then the other actors, I'm not so, oh, wait, sorry, I'm not familiar with, bloody John Wayne.

Lily: 18:01

Didn't even recognize him. Now he is the true baby face of the piece. He really is. Because he's so young and cute. You just, honestly. You want to get a chubby little cheeks? You wouldn't know. And he has a very, very small part as one of the men that.

James: 18:17

Yeah, you absolutely from his performance, you know, from his appearance in this film, you would, you would have no inclination that he would turn out to be one of the prominent movie stars the next few decades from, you know, from that. It's a, you know, it's a small part, but, um, yeah, fascinating to see him there.

Lily: 18:31

Absolutely. Okay. So Barbara Stanwyck plays. The most fantastically named Lily Powers. So we meet Lily Powers at a speakeasy. Where, where are they living?

James: 18:42

Is it Chicago?

Lily: 18:44

I thought it was somewhere more southern.

James: 18:47

Okay, yeah. Unsure. I might be

Lily: 18:49

totally wrong about that. Would be great if we knew, but guys it's not that person for the

James: 18:53

plot. She's just, she's growing up a bit out of the way, in the sticks, wherever it is. It's not in the, it's not in the heart of all the beating action of the big city. That's, that's the point. And she has an abusive father who I think pimps

Lily: 19:05

her out. Yeah, so we meet her in this bar and she's being, Gletched on by all the men in this bar. And then yeah, you learn that she has this awful relationship with her father. He's really horrible to her. There's also another woman who works at the bar called Chico, played by Teresa Harris. A black woman who, at the beginning, it's kind of set up that the father wants to fire her for some, you know, Unreasonable reason. Misdemeanor, yeah. Yeah, and Lily is like, if I, if you, she goes, I go. So you understand that they are like

James: 19:35

good friends. But, but, but there's still a, there's still a power dynamic, isn't it? Because she does save her job from being fired because if she goes, I go. But then she goes, now clear up the mess and off she trots, you know. Yeah,

Lily: 19:46

we, we can talk about the race relations of this film because it's kind of, Yeah, it's an interesting one. It's like slightly more nuanced than you might expect, but yes, but, but not, but not

James: 20:00

Let's just say, come on, it's, it's 1933. It's probably reflecting of the attitudes of Hollywood at the time. Yeah,

Lily: 20:08

I think you, I think you're right. It is reflective of that time, but I think we should discuss it. Cause it's interesting, but we'll get to it later. So, so yeah, so we meet Lily there and then quite quickly, her father is killed in a fire. Yeah. I don't mean to laugh at

James: 20:23

that. But what I love about this film though, is it doesn't hang about. I was thoroughly swept up in this film, it's like less than 90 minutes, which it always gets a thumbs up from me, so yeah. Things happen at a breakneck pace here, so

Lily: 20:35

yeah. This is a film that is an hour and 15 minutes. It's one of the shortest films, I've ever seen. And I actually think this is the one instance in my life of, this film could have gone on with being slightly longer. It doesn't hang about, but I think that there would, there's scope for just a little bit of time on each of the kind of beats of the film. Just a little, just a few minutes on each, but I like that as a criticism. What a novel thing.

James: 21:01

Oh yeah, absolutely. Like, if you aren't too keen of older films because you think they're boring, then this rattles

Lily: 21:07

along. Yeah, you honestly won't be bored. And you can, we'll link to where you can watch it. Actually, I'm skipping over really the most pivotal moment of the film. So yeah, Father Dies, but before we get to that.

James: 21:18

There's like a character actor called, uh, uh, Afons Ithia, I think. Apology for mispronouncing his name, but he plays a character called Krag, who's like, uh, is he a clockmaker or something? I don't know, but he's an older guy who frequents the speakeasy, who's trying to Help Lily better herself, I suspect, but he's trying to get her to read Nietzsche, you know.

Lily: 21:39

This is, we need to pause on this. The fact that Nietzsche is so pivotal to this plot, which is something that the censors wanted to remove from it, but it's It's kind of extraordinary. He's like, have you read Nietzsche yet? And she's like, no, I'm not going to read that. It's boring. And he gives her this speech, this incredible speech, which

James: 21:57

sets up Well, this is, this is after her dad's died and she's a bit at a loss.

Lily: 22:01

Is it after? I was thinking it was before. That makes sense. It is after. She's like, Oh God, what do I do now? Dad's died. Hated him anyway, so I'm not totally sad about it. But where does my life going? And he makes a speech, right? I'm going to read it out because I think it's

James: 22:16

such a good slide. I was watching this with my mouth was like, wow, I wasn't expecting this.

Lily: 22:21

I know. I know. Okay. A woman, young, beautiful, like you can get anything she wants in the world because you have the power over men, but you must use men, not let them use you. You must be a master, not a slave, you hear the Nietzsche coming in here. Look here, Nietzsche says, all life, no matter how we idolize it, is nothing more nor less than exploitation. That's what I'm telling you. Exploit yourself. Go to some big city where you can find opportunities. Use men. Be strong. Defiant. Use men to get the things you want.

James: 22:56

Now, if that isn't the ultimate form of what they call a call to action in a film, I don't know what

Lily: 23:03

is. Yeah, and she takes it very, very seriously, because from the next scene on, this is a film about a woman. And it says using them, she's, she is using herself, exploiting her own self sexually in order to get ahead. To take, take advantage of her clearly irresistible smile and wants to get what she wants in life.

James: 23:25

Yeah, and she, you know, the film's called Babyface and I love the fact that every time she's about to seduce a man, you hear in the background, Baby first. It's like her little theme tune that comes in like, Oh, what's she going to do now? They've got no chance. They've got no chance. They are going

Lily: 23:39

down. The charm is being turned on. I just, I need to pause with it because yeah, you said it. I, I don't know how old Craig is actually in the movie, the actor who plays him, but He's meant to be a quite old man.

James: 23:52

Yes, yeah. He's the Obi Wan Kenobi of this film, really.

Lily: 23:56

And this is a man who, because of Nietzsche, is telling this woman to be a slag, basically. It's just the most

James: 24:04

bonkers premise. And, and he's like a clockmaker, you know, so this is all taking place. This call to action about use men, exploit them. This setting is like a clock or like maybe it's a cobbler, but it's a, it's just a very, the whole. Situation is very, I've never seen anything like it. So I can, can we kind of dig down into her first seduction and the whole seduction thing? Is that right? Please God, let's get into the seduction. Okay. So yeah, so we've, we've been called into action by this Obi Wan esque Kenobi Nietzsche

Lily: 24:33

quoting. Can I just pause that you call him Obi Wan? Is that a northern thing? I think it's Obi Wan, but you know more about Star Wars than I do. I've never heard anyone call him Obi Wan.

James: 24:43

No, I think you're completely right and I'm just mispronouncing it. Obi Wan.

Lily: 24:48

I was gonna skirt over it, but as it's coming up again, I can't, I can't

James: 24:52

not. No, I think you've highlighted a misquotation I've been doing all my life. Oops. Anyway.

Lily: 24:59

But anyway, back to Obi Wan. Obi Wang, more like. Oh!

James: 25:05

Um, yeah, so, so we, we call to action, so off Babyface goes with her newfound mission, you know, she's got the zealot's eyes as she's like, yes, I am going to do this, and off

Lily: 25:14

she goes. And we have the second beat of Chico being very much a prop for anything that Lily pads of, because as you rightly noted in that early scene, it was like, hey, if she goes, I'll go, but get back to work, Chico. And now it's like, Come on, Chico. You're good. We're best friends. Come with me to New York. We're best friends going on an adventure. Who cares what Chico's got going on in that, in that town?

James: 25:35

No, absolutely don't

Lily: 25:36

know. She's there as her sidekick.

James: 25:38

It's like watching it. I imagine, I imagine anyway, that this would have been seen as progressive by the left as like, you treat your kind of servant as a friend ish.

Lily: 25:47

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I feel like the film thinks that she's not just a servant. I think the film thinks these people are genuinely. friends and it's showing that Lily is a progressive person because look at her caring about this black woman isn't that so nice of her but the film also in so doing shows this dynamic and how this woman is being used to color Lily Power's character like we really don't get to know Chico at all. Absolutely. In fact, I read an interview with Teresa Harris, the actress who plays her, because she was a jobbing actress in Hollywood throughout this period and mostly wasn't credited at all. This is one of the films she was credited in. Ah, right. And basically only played parts as maids. It's like, yeah, pretty depressing. So back to, so back to the first

James: 26:36

seduction. Yes, the first seduction. So it's, it's like of a very junior clerk whose name I can't remember. But, but what I love is, is the seduction sequences. Because I, I don't know, I don't know what you thought of them Lily, but I thought, God, these are quite hot. If I was in the cinema in the 1930s on the big screen and like she's, she, she always has like a little line just before she goes kiss, like hold me close or something. It's, it's delivered in a very, very, Deeply voiced Wayne like holy shit. You know, she's really going for it. Yes, baby face. Whatever you want, baby face. Yes Hypnotized I can imagine there was a lot of husbands. They're hot under the collar in 1933

Lily: 27:11

Well, you could definitely tell that this is a pre code film in that she uh, So they get so talk me through what happens in this seduction. We're being a bit vague here Well,

James: 27:21

she kind of goes into the audience The office space.

Lily: 27:24

Oh, okay, we're talking about different seductions. The first seduction is when they get onto the train. Oh shit! So the very first thing, this is like a second after Craig's given his speech about using men, they sneak onto a train that's going to, like a freight train.

James: 27:41

My god, sorry, how could I have

Lily: 27:45

In fairness, there are many, many seductions. So you've got a lot to choose from. So they get, they sneak onto a crate, a freight train that's going to New York and then they get busted by. Some kind of ticket guy, train guard, train guard. Yeah. And so this is the moment she snaps into action is like, wait a minute, let's get to know each other a little bit. So she, there's like a oil candle thing and she turns that down. And I just was in that moment. Well, okay. I see that this is very much a preco film. I mean, it's already, I've never, a, a film that's so old that's so, being so upfront about her father pimping her out is like already a lot. But then on top of this, there's no two ways about it. It's clear that she is now going to have sex with this man so that they are allowed to get the train illegally to New York, sneak on the train. And that was another scene that was cut from the censored

James: 28:38

version. Oh yeah, yeah, you shared a document with me which compared the censored and the uncensored version of Babyface because it was, there was a censored cut and it completely changes the film, like the whole call to action by Craig is completely changed and he tells her basically that there's a wrong way to act and a right way so you must act the right way and then obviously we get a censored version of her acting. how she acts in the film. Then towards the end, there's an update from Craig who sends her a book with a little note saying, you've chosen the wrong way. You must remember the right way. Um, so that's, that's how they get around it.

Lily: 29:12

And Nietzsche is completely cut

James: 29:13

out. Oh yeah. Yeah. Don't want that corrupting the minds of people. So wild. Only, only the Bible is allowed.

Lily: 29:20

It's just so wild that it would be put in in the first place. I need to be Taken out, like, to even use philosophy and if, this would never happen today. So I just think it's very cool that this was in a film.

James: 29:32

Oh yeah, I loved it. I was, was not expecting it. Not at all. So, yeah, I totally forgotten that that was their first seduction, but, so what do we think just of Barbara Stanwyck and her character and like, apart from double indemnity, I've not seen her in anything else, but I was like, she's very, she's got the riz, as the kids might say. She's got a good scream presence. I, I thought.

Lily: 29:52

She does have a very good screen presence, and she's, like, a beautiful woman. With my today eyes, I'm not, I'm not sure if it seems totally plausible that she would be able to seduce men quite so effectively and quite so easily and overly. Oh, I mean,

James: 30:08

the whole film's implausible, but yes.

Lily: 30:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. But that's, that's the thing that's like, what's very funny about this film, right, is that it's a depiction of gender relations and how men and women are is quite hilarious because it is so Oh,

James: 30:22

it's written and directed by men, so

Lily: 30:25

Well, yeah, but men also live in this world and know, and know stuff and they very much portray it as, like, I don't think it's just that, I think it's just like a caricature, right? It's like, men are easily seduced by women and, and will do whatever they want and will happily be taken advantage of. If a woman is attractive enough, she can be a complete seductress and completely ruthless and doesn't have any feeling for the men she exploits. And obviously that is. That's not a criticism. I'm not saying like, Oh, why isn't this film more nuanced? I enjoy the fact that this film is so caricatured. It's very fun. And in so doing, I think it is putting forward a version of feminism that is, I think it would be controversial today. You know, this film is celebrating the commodification of sex and women essentially selling their sexuality or using it for, for their own benefit. Reasons other than to connect with someone and feelings for them. And I think that is not something that is uncontroversial today. So I'm just very impressed really by a film doing that. I think it's a cool idea to explore, you know, whether or not it really works in actuality and anyone would really be this way is, is, is a question. But like, I like that a film explores that and no film today, I think would have the guts to do that. Or maybe, you know, very rarely, not a mainstream film anyway.

James: 31:45

I mean, I agree. I mean, I think the film is presented like in a bit of a caricatured cartoon esque way. I mean, the fact that the baby faced little tune pops up every time she's about to do a seduction. It's, you know, it's like, it's a bit like she's a supervillain kind of character. You know, it's a heightened cartoon world. And if you kind of get into that frame of mind, that's what it is. It's, it's, it's, it's It's not trying too hard to make a big point, it's

Lily: 32:08

just more like I disagree, I think it's making a huge point. I mean, maybe it's not trying to, but I think Because this whole film, we watch this woman ascend class and her financial circumstance By seducing men to get to a higher role in her job Because basically, sorry, we're skipping over the plot, but They get to New York And she lands a job in an office by seducing the, uh, the HR guy, which I think was the seduction you were talking about. So just remind me of what, I can't really remember that one so much. Well,

James: 32:40

he, they kind of flirt a little bit and he, she suggests that he comes, she, cause she wants to get a job and he's saying there's no jobs available, something along those lines. And she says, Oh, why don't we go into the office and discuss this further? Words to that effect. And then they go into the office and I thought it would stay outside the office. Like, I, you know, especially cause I guess I'm used to seeing a lot of post code films, it's like, that would be where it would end, or maybe you'd see a silhouette of the most of them kissing. But no, we go into the office and we see the whole like seduction. The camera's very much on, on Barbara Stanwyck's face as she turns on like the, the husky voice, like, Oh, baby face. You're so resistible. I'll give you that. Whatever you want, baby face. Off we go.

Lily: 33:20

And then from there, she, she has this job, like a sort of a lower, uh, not lower, but, um, and more entry level job, entry level job. And then it's at that point, she seduces, uh, John Wayne, lovely John Wayne. And, uh, babyface John Wayne. And then from there, a more senior person, she keeps seducing a more senior man and they'll be, and they start to give her money. She's sort of like a sugar baby for these guys because most of them are engaged or married.

James: 33:52

Oh yeah, she's a, she's a homewrecker. But one thing I love just, you know, from the filmmaking side, there's a little visual to help you see what's happening as she kind of ascends the ladder, which is there's a model shot of the building she's working at and the camera Uh, moves up the model each time she seduces a new person to show that she's working her way up the company, up the corporate ladder. And then as she gets bigger and bigger, the shot finally towards the end, it's like this huge kind of almost skyscraper that we're looking up at. So I love that this is, you know, and it's very Wes Anderson because it's clearly a model and it's got the name of each department written on it. And I don't know, it's just like, there's, there's clearly like some fun to be had with the ascension.

Lily: 34:28

Which probably inspired him because Wes Anderson, I saw that he had said that this is the most pre code, pre code film and he loves it. It's one of his favorite

James: 34:36

films. Well there we go because I did think there's a, you can see a lot of Wes Anderson riffing on those kind of things. How interesting, I didn't realize that, yeah.

Lily: 34:44

And Wes, in Wes Anderson movies, there is also a slight caricature, not slight, there is a caricature with all of his characters. Yeah, yeah. Which kind of serves as whatever the broader story is. I mean, that's one

James: 34:56

of the things I've always loved about Wes Anderson is that caricature, like heightened reality. Cause that reminds me of like older films, which yeah, yeah. But Babyface, you can definitely see the lineage to Wes Anderson's stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

Lily: 35:10

Yes. So, so yeah. So we, so this is a film where we're watching her. Ascent by using her very powerful powers of seduction. And, and yeah, I, I do think there's this like broader point to be made about that. You know, I think because she is so ruthless and unfeeling, it's very much like, this is what I've got to do to get to a certain point, but the, what's interesting about it, I think is that. The film, it makes it very clear that she, she's good at the work that she does, like not, not the seduction. She obviously she's very good at that, but she's, she's a hard worker at the, in the, in the job she lands. Yeah. Okay. She lands it in this like, uh, you know, under the table as it were kind of way. Um, when she's in these jobs, she, she's a good worker and, and, and, and does it well. And towards the end of the film, after seducing, The, someone very senior. I think that, is he like the head of the bank or something?

James: 36:13

He's the, isn't he like, cause she said she, the, the, the, she seduces the head and then he dies. And then the son comes in, the playboy son comes in to take over. Isn't that right?

Lily: 36:22

That's it. Yeah, that's it. And, and the playboy. There's a lot going on in this movie. There's a lot going on and yet, and yet so efficiently done. So this playboy son comes in and he sees right through her. And she's having none of it. Yeah. And she's trying to play the part of like, Oh, I didn't know that he was married. He said he loved me. Um, but I think I will have to sell the story and they want to pay her off to stop her doing that. And, and so he, instead of Paying her off says, well, he pays her off and says, he says, I'm going to send you to Paris to work on an office set as you obviously, you know, I've been so traumatized by this and wouldn't, and would rather, you know, you can start afresh. He obviously assumes that she'll just like, scarper what she gets to Paris and is surprised to find her working at the Parisian office and clearly doing a good job. And I, so I just find that quite, I think because of that, I don't, the film very much is on, um, Lily powers side, you know, like I don't think the film is trying to say that this is like I mean on one hand It's saying I women do have this power But it's not portraying that power as a bad thing. It's saying, this is what you need to do, but it's part of, it is part of the American dream of if you work hard enough and you take the opportunities that come your way, you can get to a certain level. And that is reflecting the fact that she is, she is a good employee as well as a good seductress.

James: 37:43

She's just all around very good at what she does, I guess. Excellent work

Lily: 37:46

ethic across the board. But the thing is, to bring it back moment for a moment to her friendship with Chico. So Chico comes with her to New York as a friend and then she is, and then she becomes Lily's maid when Lily starts to ascend and is given this like nice flat and, and jewels and the fab clothes. So again, you're just like, Oh

James: 38:07

God, like. But then occasionally Chico is also dressed up in the, is like, Fancy gear, just like, um, you know, so she, she will alternate between her maid gear. I've noticed when, when, um, the, sorry, when Lily has guests, uh, Chico will wear the maid gear and, and welcome them into the house. And then when it's them hanging out, she's, she's kind of more dressed up. That's

Lily: 38:31

true. That's true. It's not, it's, yeah. It's, it's actually not that that's what Lily thinks Chico should be doing. It's almost like as part of the whole. Double crossing the, the, the A part of the, the seduction is to present a certain person to these men, because that is the person they want to see. This like adorable innocent woman that, you know, hasn't been with other men and is being seduced and, and having this great romance with this person for, for, for the first time. And alongside that, has this affluent life, has this maid. Yeah. Rather than the true. Backstory and the, the true reality of that, of that relationship, I guess. So it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's nuanced for

James: 39:17

sure. Yeah. And, and it's interesting how just the introduction of the code, there were still black performers on screen, but I, you know, when I think the only one I can think of of any note from films I've seen of the code era would be Sam in Casablanca, you know, so it suddenly feels like, I'm not saying portrayals got better or worse, but they seem to get more limited. That, that's, that's my impression I feel from the code.

Lily: 39:45

Well, definitely. Because if you have a rule like. No, I don't even want to use that word, but if you're saying that,

James: 39:52

like, You can't depict romance between, uh, the different races.

Lily: 39:57

Exactly. Then, then that is of course going to, that, that's, um, that's segregating the screen. So it definitely like further kind of solidifies that kind of attitude. Whereas, yeah, I think, I mean, in general, the, the, the, The code will make, made film more conservative or, you know, more, a certain version of conservative morality, whereas before it was a lot more liberal in general, I think.

James: 40:29

Absolutely. One thing watching Babyface, I just couldn't stop thinking was what would cinema be like right now if the Hays Code had never been enforced or existed? I mean, it's a kind of chicken egg. It's impossible, but like, I wonder where cinema would be now. Would it be like, Would we have got to the 90s in the 60s? I don't know. Because I do think that the code, by limiting the storytelling and censoring, it did force, uh, the studios to make, to try and make entertaining films, but without relying on the kind of those methods to get, to get engaging entertaining films, which is why it's called the Golden Age of Hollywood, is A lot of the what we call classic Hollywood films are from that post code era. And I do wonder if it's because it sharpened up their ways of making interesting stories. I, I, I don't know. It's, it's kind of almost impossible to tell. Oh,

Lily: 41:20

interesting. Yeah, because they couldn't just rely on Shock value. Shock value, seduction, violence, gratuitousness. They had to work on other things, such as like the story, the plot, the dialogue, musical numbers. Absolutely.

James: 41:40

So you forced them to do all these and probably push the innovations like color, like widescreen. I know it was like, that was almost TV as well, but I almost feel like it made them have to push themselves in a way that maybe they wouldn't have thought of. Push themselves if they didn't have to have this restrictive code they were taking into account.

Lily: 41:56

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, if you think about the horniness of nineties movies and the shock value that was, that it was almost like we were in that era. That was when studios were back to trying to push the envelope so much. And actually all that happened was it was, it worked for a while, but then audiences became fatigued by it. Like people get tired of shock value after a while. Um, yeah. This, that this, I'm very glad that we had this film before that got,

James: 42:26

got going. Yeah, it just feels like a completely different type of Hollywood film. Like this, this, the, the, the, the, there's something about them. It feels a little bit, watching Babyface. It feels a little bit kind of, I don't know, a little edgy still,

Lily: 42:39

you know. It's very edgy. Yeah. I think this is still, um, progressive today. I don't, I think it's like, yeah, these are not, like I said before, these are not, ideas that are being explored. People don't want to explore the idea of, of sex being used in a non romantic or, or just equal, it's, it being used as a, even though sex is of course so intertwined with power, people don't like to explore that. Yeah.

James: 43:10

We don't like to explore it, do we? Yeah. It's left unexplored. We only experience it in our actual real lives and it's, uh, you know, I don't know.

Lily: 43:16

I, um, I watched How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days last weekend. And actually, I was like, this film is very much a precursor to that film. But with How to Lose a Guy in Ten Days, uh, they do not have sex during this film, which seems completely implausible that these people who are seeing each other every single night and clearly fancy each other. I mean, Matthew McConaughey is like the most potent. He has this, like, way of seducing his actresses. He's just got the, he's got the wrist. So, he, uh, so, I But that film is very much like in a, in a much less upfront way, doing the same thing of showing how people can use attraction and seduction in order to do something else, you know, that they're, they're trying to seduce each other in order. To, to, to win a bet or do, do other things outside of this relationship. It's all just to, to get further ahead in whatever they're pursuing. And this film, this film did that, you know, 90 years before, without, or maybe 80 years before, but in a way more upfront, brazen way, it's just so kind of

James: 44:25

amazing to see. And, and, and, you know, I'm glad you brought it back to some kind of modern, uh, kind of, uh, kind of, uh, Equivalent to, to Babyface because it made me, the ending of Babyface really made me immediately think of the ending of The Ugly Truth, the kind of Catherine Heigl, is it Heigl? Catherine Heigl and, um, Gerard Butler rom com. I don't know if you've seen that at all. I

Lily: 44:45

have not seen that. I tried to avoid Gerard Butler

James: 44:48

at that stage. Like, like same, same here really, but it was recommended by a friend. They were like, you might actually like this. And I actually didn't mind it for a, but it's like, Gerard Butler plays essentially a sociopath, a very unlikable, manipulative man who Catherine Hegel is, like, entangled with and then suddenly, in the last 15 minutes of the film, he just becomes a nice guy and there's no real reason that he became a nice guy apart from we need the romantic ending where they kiss each other and we all feel happy and leave the cinema and I felt that a bit with Babyface where right towards the end. She suddenly doesn't care about the money and the diamonds because she's found love with this playboy character. It's like, not 100 percent buying it. It feels like we needed, they needed to give us that ending so we didn't, I don't know, so it, we felt like we liked the character in the end. I don't know.

Lily: 45:36

I, um, I actually really, I like the ending because That was a moment to me that felt like it rung quite true in a way, because so, yeah, so what happens is once she's in Paris and she runs back into this playboy again, um, they start seeing each other and unlike all the other times, she doesn't want to sleep with him and she's disappointed that he is like every other guy and is clearly does want to sleep with her. Um, because. She actually has feelings for this one, finally, after all this time of just using men and not having any feeling for them and, you know, happily seducing them and then leaving them in the dust once, once you find someone else, um, and so she, uh, so she's upset with him, but then they do get together, they get married, right? They resolve to, they get married and then he has some kind of financial issue with the bank and she has all this money and so he wants her to like, help her out and give him the money and she's like, well, no, cause then I'll have nothing. Bye. But then she's like, wait, no, I've made a mistake. She goes and finds him. He's like dying for some reason. I don't know why I don't remember. I guess by the way. Because

James: 46:52

there's a lot of, Lily, Lily, there is a lot happening in this film. I mean like, it's

Lily: 46:55

just. Guys, watch it to see for yourself, but. I'm sorry that we spoiled it, I realize now, but hey, it's still worth a watch, guys, it's definitely worth a watch. Yeah, yeah, it's still worth a watch. And she's like, actually, I don't care about any of this, I just want to be with you, I love you. And you're right, in some sense it does feel a bit tacked on, perhaps, but actually, to me, what I liked about it was that I think, I think the thing that is often, um, I think there is this idea that if you, if you see sex as potentially a commodity, then you must have no feeling for men or whoever you're. having that sex with at all, and that you you are like a feelingless, you know, robot that is just using people. And actually, I don't think that is true at all. I think it's perfectly plausible that you can see sex as as that in in As that but then also think that it matters with certain people with the people that you care about like these two things to me aren't contradictory and yet that that is never really shown and then and if you don't if you don't ever like express that then you're you're actually taking a moral stand about it and saying like One, one, essentially that one thing is bad and one thing is good. Like there is a right way to do sex, which is like in a relationship or in some kind of relationship with where you guys are equals and it's not a power thing. And that's the other way when, like, I don't think that is necessarily true. So I, I like that because. I was like, yeah, like it's perfectly possible for her to finally fool for a guy, especially to be honest at the point where she's, she's managed to do the thing she wanted to do. She's got to the point in society, she's risen up to where she wants to be and she feels secure. She's gotten away from the fucked up childhood she had. And so she's kind of now ready to find someone because she is still a human being who loves people. You know, you can be ruthless and use people, but also have feelings and care about people. So I didn't, I didn't mind it. I did. I mean, I did mind that her, her saying, Oh, I, I don't care about money, like whatever, because I don't believe that to be true.

James: 49:08

True. No, I was like, really baby face?

Lily: 49:11

Really? But I think, but that's something you can say in the moment when you're looking at your, your, the person you love and they might be dying. Like, it's what you can say, but

James: 49:20

then But then the next day you'll be like, oh, you know what though, actually, maybe, maybe not.

Lily: 49:24

Yeah, but you can, but then it's like, but we'll build our life together, you know, like, I think, like, I like the fact that the film ends in a quite ambiguous note. Whereas Let's bring it back to the censored version in the censored version, the, we, I think we need to explain about the censored version, but before we get to that, the, that ending was, there was an extra scene tacked onto the end where they end up back in her hometown and he's working at like a steel mill, her husband or something, and she's got no money and they're perfectly happy because obviously the message has to be, okay. This kind of seduction is no good. You need to go back to your roots and be more

James: 50:02

Yeah, exactly. You need to, you need to forget all that and go back to your roots. And that's the only way to be happy. Yeah. Happy. I think what they did, they, I think it sounds like they reshot some of the board members in a boardroom, reading a letter from either Babyface or the guy saying, this is what we're up to now. And the very last shot of the film that the credits go over is a shot of like the factory with the smokestacks coming out of it where he now works. So just like. Yeah. Okay.

Lily: 50:27

Yeah, because even though this film, this film was made, this preco film was made, which speaks to where cinema was at before the code was properly enforced. We are, it was a weird moment where these films were being censored, even though So basically this film got made, it did get submitted because there was this, this, there was this board that was, that was reviewing films and making suggestions in order for the films to be released. So the actual film that people saw in the cinema, which was, which was a hit. I think they made that their money, like, like four times over. Oh, great. That was like the censored chopped up version. No one had seen the, the original version until 2005 when it was discovered. 2004, when it was, when it was rediscovered.

James: 51:19

Which, which was revelation to me. I had no idea. When I watched the film, I, it was only when I did the research afterwards that I was like, oh, sh oh, right. So we're seeing the version that the public didn't see. So the version that was the smash was the heavily censored version. I mean, but, but like, it doesn't sound anywhere near as fun as the version that we, I mean, I feel very fortunate that we, we, it was rediscovered. I mean, I'm, I'm, you know, it's a, an, a fascinating glimpse of, of what was, uh. Considered too hot to be shown to the public at the time. But

Lily: 51:48

it was, and yeah, so, so it was actually the censored version, which was the one that caused outrage and scandal and was what, what made us move into the code era. That's what's wild to me. I'm like, God, they didn't even see the most outrageous version. Their minds would have been blown.

James: 52:05

Yeah. It would have been, yeah. Who knows what would have happened to main America if they'd have seen that. But yeah. Um, Yeah. And, oh, in 2005, it was deemed culturally and historically, um, significant. So it was preserved in the U. S. Library of Congress. Wow. Um, which is a huge honor. I think there's only about a dozen films each year that are, uh, awarded that. So it means that that's now preserved and saved. That's fantastic. Yeah. So, so clearly even, even the American, um, government realized how important the film was to preserve.

Lily: 52:35

Yeah, a very important film and I don't say that lightly.

James: 52:40

And a very enjoyable

Lily: 52:41

watch, you know. So much fun, strongly recommend it. Um, if you really want to understand the history of Hollywood's horniness, start with this movie. We'll put a link to it in the show notes so you can watch it. Yeah,

James: 52:55

I, I feel like this, this very small window is, is quite a rich scene to mine. I mean, Design for Living that we covered, I thought was, was a great film, you

Lily: 53:04

know, so. Yeah, I mean, we've done, we've done throuples, we've done pro sex work, essentially. Um, Or like proto sugar babies. Love it. What is next? What is next? So stay tuned for that. Stay tuned. Okay. So shall we finish up with a trip to the film pharmacy?

James: 53:26

Absolutely. Yes.

Lily: 53:31

Okay. So we have this question. Hi guys. I'm looking for a new film to watch, something in the thriller genre, akin to The Prestige, Shutter Island, The Usual Suspects. Any recommendations?

James: 53:45

Now that is, it's a specific kind of thriller, isn't it? They're all twist at the end, kind of twisty surprise thrillers. So

Lily: 53:53

that's a very good point.

James: 53:55

And those are the three big ones. Like if someone said, tell me a film that's like The Prestige, I might say Shutter Island or, you know, you know, I would suggest one of those three. So, you know, my first three films that I would suggest are all included in that suggestion. So I had to just cast my net a little bit wider. Yeah. Okay,

Lily: 54:14

and what did you come

James: 54:15

to? Well, what I did, I decided actually staying in Hollywood was probably not going to get as a film that this person hadn't seen. So I figured let's just go a little bit wider than this and I settled on South Korean film Oldboy by Park Chan wook, which I think will give you that kind of thriller with a bit of a something y twist coming up.

Lily: 54:35

I love that suggestion. I still haven't watched Oldboy, actually. I've seen the obviously infamous. Octopus scene, squid scene. Was it an octopus or was it a squid? It's very large. Must be. I think, yeah. Yeah. But I do, I really do want to watch that movie. Good choice. Solid choice. Thanks, yeah.

James: 54:54

Yeah, I think it's like, it's in that bracket of that kind of film. What about yourself, Lulu? Um,

Lily: 55:00

okay, well, you make a good point about the twist element, because I have to say, I've seen the prestige at some point. I feel like we've discussed this before. But I don't really remember it.

James: 55:09

It's my favourite Christopher Nolan film. I can't believe we haven't

Lily: 55:12

talked about it on this podcast then, James. We'll have to get to it. We did a whole, oh no, we'll remember when we did our twist episode and we didn't know how to find movies we hadn't seen without discovering what the twist was. That was an absolute

James: 55:28

nightmare. Well, you live and you learn, don't you Lily? You live and you learn on this podcast.

Lily: 55:32

And I had this horrible experience of watching Shutter Island where I'd made, I was like 15 or maybe a bit younger, I don't know, but it was the first time my sister and I were, One of the first times we were at home without our parents and I was going to cook for us. It was like kind of a big deal. And I found this recipe for prawn fajitas. This

James: 55:52

is so unlikely. This anecdote, I love it. So

Lily: 55:56

I make the. I follow this recipe which required a lot of chili and because I wasn't I was new to cooking This was a new experience. I didn't think about the fact that maybe I should choose for myself the level of heat I just followed the recipe And I made the the fajitas and the prawns were so so spicy It was like Unbearable, and rather than just not eating them, because you know, we've been brought up not to waste, my sister and I just like, suffered through watching Shutter Island, drinking gallons of milk, in between eating these like, horribly, horribly spicy fajitas. And so now whenever I think of Shutter Island, I think of this like, burning pain.

James: 56:39

What an association to have with that

Lily: 56:41

film. It's a weird association, I have to say. So I also barely remember the movie because I was quite preoccupied with this, with what was happening on my plate. But that's all a tangent. But what came to mind was, um, Killer Joe. It came out in 2012, directed by William Freakin. It's a movie where Matthew McConaughey plays Joe. He's the titular killer Joe and he is the darkest character, scariest part I've ever seen him play. He's really good at it, really good. It's also got Gina Gershon in it, who I know you love. Oh, excellent, yeah. Yeah, and it's, it's just a very, um, It's a creepy film. It's like quite intense. And I don't remember any twists. There may have been a twist. So I, so the, the

James: 57:27

association is, is that a twist? Is that a twist? Lily? So the person watching it doesn't know there's a twist.

Lily: 57:32

Yeah, maybe I'm leading you down the wrong path, but it's just a really, really, it stayed with me. And it's kind of a film that it didn't come out all that long ago, but I feel like the year it came out, there was quite a lot of buzz cause it was during Matthew McConaughey's time. Yeah. Yeah. McConaissance and it's kind of slightly like you never really hear about it now, but it's a good movie. I'd really recommend it. Very exciting.

James: 57:52

I think that's two, uh, quite different recommendations there. So take your pick, please, listener.

Lily: 57:58

All right, well, thank you very much for listening to another episode of Groovy Movies.

James: 58:04

Absolutely. And if you could find your way to leaving us a like or a five star review it all helps get our podcast out into the bigger world.

Lily: 58:11

So we'll see you in two weeks time. Bye. Bye. Follow us on Instagram at groovymoviespod or email us groovymoviespod at gmail.

James: 58:21

com Groovy Movies was produced and edited by Lily Austin. Music and sound

Lily: 58:25

by James Browsford.

James: 58:27

Our logo was designed by Appy Jo Sheldon. For

Lily: 58:30

references and more information about the films discussed, check out the show notes.