Civil War: Will A24's big budget gamble pay off?

Last week A24’s Civil War was released and we have mixed feelings about it. Will their biggest-budget movie to date prove itself at the box office? And is a movie about war and an American fascist leader really what we want to see right now?

References
‘The Rise and Rise of A24’, The Economist (not credited)
Director Alex Garland speaking to The Hollywood Reporter about Civil War
‘Box Office: ‘Civil War’ Makes $2.9 Million in Previews, Best Ever for an A24 Movie’ by Jordan Moreau for Variety

Film Pharmacy
Perfect Days (2023) dir. by Wim Wenders
Idiocracy (2006) dir. by Mike Judge

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Transcript

James: 0:00

Oh, wow. This is great news. Lily. I'm very excited to hear this.

Lily Mic: 0:12

Welcome to groovy movies. My name is Lily Austin.

James: 0:16

And my name is James Brailsford. Hello!

Lily Mic: 0:18

Hey James, how the hell are you?

James: 0:20

You know, not too bad, another day, another dollar, just, uh, being, um, what have I been doing?

Lily Mic: 0:25

On the Saturday.

James: 0:27

You know,

Lily Mic: 0:28

Just making it rain every day of the

James: 0:30

Well, not making it rain, I'm like, I've got a leaky bucket that I'm trying to patch up. And I'm stood out in the dry sun, just going, come on, please, rain, make it rain.

Lily Mic: 0:40

Yeah, I hear that, I hear that. Tough times.

James: 0:45

But, with the few pennies I do have, of course, I've been going to the cinema so that we can keep this podcast trucking.

Lily Mic: 0:52

Yeah, it was an interesting week, uh, starting off with mother's instinct, being somewhat disappointed and then doing a sharp turn into civil war. Yeah, we pivoted, we pivoted on what we wanted to talk about.

James: 1:04

I was hoping that, uh, that Mother's Instinct might have enough meat on the bones to be worth us discussing, so I still haven't seen it yet, but after your, you know, you, you didn't seem too enthused by it, it seemed, uh, right. Enough of that nonsense then, let's go full tilt Civil War.

Lily Mic: 1:18

Yeah, I mean, it was, it was okay. Like it wasn't terrible, but I just didn't think it was original enough for that to be much faster chat about, um,

James: 1:27

like, kind of business, stuff you've seen before done nice

Lily Mic: 1:31

It just seemed like a, quite a predictable, uh, thriller really. So I, I mean, I didn't want to be negative. So, so that was why we weren't going to talk about it, but here we are. Ha, ha,

James: 1:44

So we have pivoted to pretty much the opposite end of the cinematic spectrum and gone for Alex Garland's Civil War, which is A24's latest offering.

Lily Mic: 1:55

That's right. And yeah, with a budget of 50 million, it's also their biggest movie to date. it's predicted to gross around 20 million this weekend. So by the time you're listening to this guys, you'll know you'll be able to look it up, who knows. But if it does hit that market, it's going to break a 24's record and even potentially push Godzilla X Kong off the top spot. So big weekend for a 24. it's interesting because they've only been around since 2012. And yet they just seem to have, they cannot put a foot wrong. They just go from strength to strength.

James: 2:29

I was surprised when I researched the background because I realized, Hey, I don't actually know anything really about the background of A24. And then when I researched it, I was like, Oh, they're a very new operation. God, they've done well. But then when you research it, you realize it wasn't like a bunch of college students who had a big dream of making a studio. This was, quite seasoned industry professionals who saw a gap in the market that they identified that wasn't being serviced by low budget, independent. Films that were different from the mainstream. And I think they, you know, they took seed capital from Guggenheim partners, where one of them was the head of their film financing department. So these were seasoned, industry and finance industry, uh, um, experts,

Lily Mic: 3:11

three guys, two of whom are called David, David Fenkel and David Katz, and also a man called John Hodges. So, so far, so standard names, but, they are not standard men because you're right. They saw this gap in the market for, well made, uh, High quality movies that were targeted not at an older audience, like the kind of classic prestige TV shows and like big budget kind of historical films Instead wanted to appeal to like younger cinephiles and also alongside that Decided that rather than doing the kind of standard traditional advertising strategies for films, so like, you know, expensive print ads and posters everywhere, they would focus more on like digital marketing and using social media to, to reach their audience.

James: 3:59

I heard that 90 percent of their marketing spend is digital and online. You know, so the majority, the vast majority of all their marketing is online because that's where their target audience lives. Isn't it really? It's a social media world that the 20 something target audience, I suspect

Lily Mic: 4:13

yeah, yeah.

James: 4:14

is that, that, that's, that's where they are. So you've got to advertise where they're going to be.

Lily Mic: 4:17

And it's smart because it's not something I've even thought about. Clocked, but it, it makes sense because their films, people are aware of them. They don't go under the radar. And I think that is that kind of really smart kind of social media marketing presence that cause we're all there. We're all on social media all the time.

James: 4:38

Absolutely. And they've done all the smart stuff that you should do with any brand, which is they have a clear brand identity. Their Twitter account, it has character and a personality that reflects the kind of brand that it is. So they're doing all the right things that a modern, successful brand targeting a younger demographic should do really, which is this kind of authentic voice, you know, you use your social media. You don't feel like you're being given the hard sell.

Lily Mic: 5:00

So yeah, they started in 2012 and then in March 2013, um, they, they started out at just in distribution initially. So they had this big deal with Spring Breakers, a film,

James: 5:13

break.

Lily Mic: 5:16

Yeah, a film that James loves and I, I love less, but that was a big hit for them because the budget was five mil, but they made 32 million with that, which I didn't realize actually

James: 5:27

A24 essentially doing what Dozens of, film production companies used to do and have kind of got squeezed out of the market, which is they make low budget films or relatively low budget that make a modest amount of money because all the big studios have just gone for gamble, big gamble, big spend two to 300 million, let's hope we make a billion. And, you know, it's the classic case of the more risk you take, the greater the reward, but the greater the loss, you know, so maybe you only make 20 million on spring breakers or 15 million. Because you just need to make 10 million on a 5 million budget, and then you're making profit. It's a lower risk, lower return situation, but it means you can build the studio a bit more sustainably.

Lily Mic: 6:09

That's a good point. Cause obviously to a big studio, 32 million is nothing, but if you're keeping your budgets low, it means you can slowly build up your output and, keep it focused on passion projects. Because that's the thing with A24, if you look at all the movies they've made, there are always movies where it's original, and the director and writer, their vision is at the heart of it.

James: 6:32

You can see that they are films that were wanting to be made by somebody. These weren't an assignment. A24 didn't say, oh, you know what, we just need like a rom com. Anyone make us a rom com? No, it's clear that people come to A24 with their passion project.

Lily Mic: 6:48

Totally. Yeah. So then in 2014, they moved into production and made a splash because their first movie that they produced was Moonlight, Barry Jenkins movie that went on to win the Best Picture Oscar. If everyone remembers that controversy with the wrong name being read out and that was a budget of 1. 5 million. So a tiny budget and it grows 65 million. So huge, huge hit in every respect, both critical and financial.

James: 7:13

Yeah. And what's interesting as well, another little thing that just kind of came across my path doing the research is that, the producer of Ladybird is an older producer who's been in the industry for decades. And he said that his experience of working with A24 as producing partners was they're the best company he's ever worked with in his career. So not only are they producing good films that are commercial and critical hits on low budgets, but the people in the industry who are working with them, for a producer to say that they're the best company he's ever worked with in his decade long career, that's, that, that's got to mean something. So clearly they employ good staff and they've got a tight company.

Lily Mic: 7:50

And you can tell because the directors who work with them continue to work with them. Yorgos Lanthimos. Has worked, with them for years, Ari Aster, all of his movies, Hereditary, et cetera, all came out, Joanna Hogg, all these incredible directors, all, all the directors that we know by name recognition who make incredible indie movies, basically, they all work with A24, so,

James: 8:11

Yeah, I mean, it's a bit like, uh, sorry to raise this, uh, this production company, but, you know, in the nineties, Miramax were doing that. They were making these low budget independents that, you know, they are the, they were the production company that kind of nurtured Tarantino that kept working. So, so they're doing that kind of thing for the current generation of filmmakers. They are the studio you kind of go to.

Lily Mic: 8:31

And lest we forget Euphoria, it's not just movies, it's TV as well. That's, you know, huge, huge hit. 32 Oscar nominations, 7 wins and 23 Emmys. So, across the board, just absolutely smashing it.

James: 8:45

So they're on a roll. They're absolutely on a roll right now.

Lily Mic: 8:47

They're on a roll, but there was controversy last year when it was announced that they'd had like over 200 million in investment. And so there were big plans to expand. They opened offices in London. They've got eyes on other territories and online. It was very much the narrative of, Oh no, they're going to expand into big budget movies. Is this the end of the like heyday of age 24? And. Looking at the faces that you're pulling, James, I feel like you are concerned about this, but to my mind, Civil War proves that A24 are going to stay true to their, to their roots and their USP of originality and an indie sensibility, even if they have more money to put behind some of these directors.

James: 9:27

I agree with you that they're still staying to the roots, but I wonder if they will continue to make money as they kind of push themselves into this slightly bigger budget arena that I think I'm sure everyone at A24 will be looking at civil war is very much a test case Is there enough of an audience to bring a return on something like, on this subject matter at this budget?

Lily Mic: 9:46

Shall I give us a little overview of the plot summary? Yeah, I'm volunteering myself for the role, so be careful for next week, you might be on the, I was gonna say on the chopping block, but hopefully not that. Um, okay, so, Civil War, in case you guys haven't seen the trailer, it is set in, I'm assuming, a kind of, an alternative now, right? It feels contemporary. It's set in an America where there is a totalitarian dictator, basically. There is a fascist president in charge and two states, Texas and California, have banded together to try and

James: 10:29

The Western Front.

Lily Mic: 10:30

Yes, it's known as the Western Front and it's very, I think it's very interesting and significant that it's California and Texas, but we'll get to that later. The film opens with the president practicing his speech about. Where they're at in the war, which I think is interesting. I'm wonder what that means. And then we go on to follow a group of journalists and photo journalists as they head towards Washington to the White House, the kind of the front, of the battle. kind of a road movie essentially, because we're, we're, we're on the road for most of the film heading that way. And, and you see what's happening in this war as you, as you go.

James: 11:06

Yeah, I mean, as the film started to kind of progress, I thought, okay, this is very much a riff on Apocalypse Now, isn't it? In Apocalypse Now, you have a small team of people on a boat and their mission is to get to Colonel Kurtz and terminate Colonel Kurtz. But, but they have a person they're trying to get to through a war zone, So I was like, okay, so Alex Garland is, is certainly. riffing on Apocalypse Now with, with Civil War, because it's a very episodic film, Civil War, you know, there's, the plot line is very loose because they've, the plot is they have to get to the White House. And so it's then, it's the vignettes that occur on their journey there into, into the heart of darkness,

Lily Mic: 11:43

So we follow Kirsten Dunst who plays Leigh named after Leigh Miller, the famous photojournalist. So from the get go you, that you kind of get the sense that this film is very much about like the role of photojournalism and the press in a conflict. And then also Wagner Mora who plays Joel and Kayleigh Spaney who plays Jessie, It's the actor who was also in Priscilla and I honestly did not realize until after the movie doing, doing my sort of post movie research. Like I cannot believe that she's, she's a very good actor because it's not like she looks that different but just. Very different roles. Um, and then also Stephen McKinley plays Sammy. So who's like, you know, the veteran journalist. So the four of them, Jesse, Kaylee plays Jesse, who's like a young woman trying to break into the industry very much at the start of her career. And Lee and Joel are the kind of later in their career. Jealous. Who've, who've seen a lot of war. So, so we've got these different roles within the crew who are headed there.

James: 12:45

When I was watching this, I was hoping to kind of really get an understanding of the moral gray area, that, that photojournalists have to act, take a, take a stance in really. But I, I didn't feel like I felt any of that at all, which, which was a shame. I, cause I, I was, that's what I was hoping I would get some taste of. Uh

Lily Mic: 13:06

Was struck by the way it was filmed. The camera holds on every, there was a lot of violence in this movie, but the way it is filmed, the camera never looks away. It holds still. on every violent moment. And in a way that makes you not want to look away either. You know, I did, I didn't flinch and look away. Even though some of the things I was watching were, definitely, you know, unpleasant to watch. And I think that was reflecting the role of The journalist perhaps, or, or how they view the role of journalism in war, which is like you, you're not meant to look away because we need to bear witness to violence, I think they were very willfully choosing not to reckon with it because if you, as a journalist, if you go down that path, you're It's going to fuck you up and and I felt like there was a custom dance alludes to that but I think in order to do that job, you, you can't really go that, but that doesn't mean as a viewer watching it, you don't think about it because I was thinking about the whole way through and in my mind, I thought that was what, you know, The film wanted me to do, but what was interesting was watching an interview with the cast, they referred to it, well, the journalist interviewing them referred to it as a love letter to journalism. And I thought that's interesting that that was their perspective because to me, I didn't feel like it was that. I felt like,

James: 14:34

definitely didn't think of it as a love letter to journalism. That's for sure. Yeah.

Lily Mic: 14:37

What I loved about the film is if you watch the trailer, you could think that this is going to be quite a standard action movie. Okay, using an interesting, like, an interesting take being like, it's a civil war, but in the US, you know, but like you could assume that it was going to go down a more like standard route. But I felt like because it was so, so stark and it wasn't like glamorizing. The conflict at all. It doesn't, like the, basically there is no clear cut, like baddies and goodies. You're not rooting for a particular side. You know, the actual war itself isn't, I don't think like portrayed in like a glam, glamorous, exciting, actiony way. Like, Oh, come on. Yeah. We want you guys to win. But the one thing that I thought was slightly, slightly Glamorous though. Also, I, I, I believe kind of fairly accurate was early on when we meet the photo journal, all the journalists in the, in the the hotel where they're all staying. And if there's like music playing and everyone's drinking and having a good time. And I believe from having, you know, It was interesting because they mentioned in this interview that they looked at, um, a documentary about Marie Colvin, who was like a photojournalist, as a reference point, and I, and I kept thinking about her memoir that I read, it's called, like, An Extremist. It's really good. Strongly recommend. And in that they talk about these bars that everyone, you know, and it's like the one place during the conflict where you can have a, like, a bit of escapism from what's going on because, you know, you're there with your colleagues, you're all on the same page and you're, the drinks are flowing and you just have a breather, but that was, seemed kind of glamorous. But apart from that, I didn't feel like it really was portraying journalism in a Positive way, not in a negative, but just like I felt like it was questioning it.

James: 16:18

I think what started to frustrate me with the film early on was I wasn't sure what its point was, and I know you could say, well, that's the point of the film, I didn't see it as a love letter to journalism, but I'm not sure what it was to journalism, there were two films I was thinking of all the way through the film, and there was one film that I've been thinking about afterwards. The two films I thought were the one that I would reference, which is Apocalypse Now, which I think is its clearest, like, let's say, there's a, at least the structure of it. This, like, a group of ragtag people on a mission with very loosely unstructured stories. But then I was thinking of, um, Spring Breakers, and I didn't realize A24 made Spring Breakers, because I was thinking I would completely engage with this film in a Much deeper level if it was much more abstracted. Cause what, what, what I think what happened for me watching this film is that we have an attempt to abstraction by saying, Oh, then it's not really like Democrats versus Republicans. It's, it's, we're not saying who's it's who it's like, cause that doesn't matter. And it's true. I don't, I'm quite happy to abstract who the bad people and the good people are. That that's good. It makes it a much more interesting film. But, uh, It wasn't abstracted enough. I'd like, get it Neon Drench, set it further in the future, make it a conflict, but let's discuss what the conflict is about. And because we abstracted it further. I just think by making it a bit abstract, but also making it look and feel exactly like the real world didn't work for me. I think that was the fundamental kind of the thing that didn't quite settle.

Lily Mic: 17:45

I personally liked that. It felt so real. Alex Garland wrote it during covert and they filmed it. Basically between COVID and the, the strikes of last year, kind of in that little, that, that moment they took advantage that was fortunate, but it then meant, yeah, it got pushed back and it's only now being released. That's four years basically of, from start to end, he hadn't anticipated taking so long, but obviously with all these things it did, but it's interesting that he wrote it before. The January insurrection, and that there's so much about the film that feels, reflective of That time. I mean, of course, he was writing it during COVID and there was a lot of unrest with, the riots that were going on around George Floyd and that kind of thing. But it was kind of interesting that like, it was almost slightly foreshadowing what, what ended up happening. And, and now we're at a point, right, of an election year where basically we're back to square one. Okay. I, I listened to an interview about Scar where he thought, like, I didn't expect to be in basically the exact same place I was in, we were in a, you know, a few years ago and it feels like déjà vu, so I think, it was a choice to make this movie realistic, but I thought the whole point of the film, right, is about the idea that, polarization doesn't work. And the reason California and Texas are a team is because They have chosen to put their differences aside because there is a fascist dictator.

James: 19:18

here's the film I wanted to see. I wanted to see Texas and California pairing up and forming the Western front. The amount of questions that ask us, Texas and California are clearly in the real world. We live in are the most diametrically opposed politically you could ever imagine. So for them to come together as, Oh, there's an interesting story. There's something I'd like to see that. I'd like to see them forming the Western front

Lily Mic: 19:38

Right. Yeah.

James: 19:39

cause I just felt like

Lily Mic: 19:41

Because we didn't actually see it. We just knew theoretically that that's what's going on.

James: 19:45

I did feel that even though I'm comparing this to Apocalypse Now, it felt thin compared to Apocalypse Now. I wasn't sat asking myself lots of questions like, for example, Zone of it. Zone of interest. It was making me think a lot about the nature of evil, the mundanity of evil, the way it was presented. I wasn't having those thoughts at all with Civil War, really. And I think, I think part of it, Lily, is that it's not difficult for me to, without any effort, imagine a Civil War in America. It's not a fantasy that's, you know, It's just impossible to imagine that looking at the news, it looks and feels like there's war zones kicking off around the world. So, I think I found it quite a cold watching a cinema, and unfortunately, the cinema was quite empty on a Friday afternoon, which it should really have a few people. So, I just think it's brilliant. possibly going to not really be that appealing to audiences who right now probably just want to escape a little bit. And this is, I just think the timing isn't great either. I just think it's going to be hard to get people to sit in a theater and watch this.

Lily Mic: 20:45

So my cinema was packed. But having said that, yeah, it was absolutely round. I was at the BFI IMAX and I've, I've,

James: 20:53

are you? Oh, which one is it? Which one is it?

Lily Mic: 20:58

L so it's slightly more expensive, like you suggested, but not the so expensive that you're quite far back. I was exactly in the middle. I had enough leg room that I was comfortable enough I could have done with a bit more, but I'm, I'm happy with l

James: 21:10

Oh, wow. This is great news. Lily. I'm very excited to hear this.

Lily Mic: 21:13

Yes. And okay. So just to talk about that, that's this experience. So as I was going into the cinema, I heard this guy go, Oh, I thought it was going to be a two and a half hour jobby. That's great. Because obviously his girlfriend had just said to him, the movie is only an hour and 54 minutes. So love that major points because how rare that a big action movie would be so short would be under two hours. from that. But as I was coming out of cinema, because I had so many things that I was thinking about during the film, so it, it really spoke to me, but I think a cold watch is very, I am totally with you on that, but I'll get back to that, but as we were leaving, I could hear someone talking to his friends saying, I didn't really get, you know, whose side was who, What the conflict was about kind of thing. And I could send, I could feel some dissatisfaction though. I did also hear someone else saying it's even better on the third watch who like worked at the cinema. So, so so I think it is, it's, it's definitely, I see the potential for this movie to be divisive because in the cinema, a minority being a woman. Everyone in my row, it was all men who, you know, they had to see their, Friday night action movie or whatever and I can imagine being disappointed because it's not kind of gratuitous, exciting violence. It is cold blooded,

James: 22:33

I know that's the, that's the thing. It's like,

Lily Mic: 22:35

for me, I, found it very thought provoking, you know, all of that stuff is deliberate choice and I can understand why, you know, you'd have preferred a slightly different film where it went into why exactly California in Texas. Got together how that went about, but actually to me, I thought that wasn't the story it was looking to tell, I think there were two things going on. I felt like there was quite a clear message about the importance of not being polarized because, I think just it's like showing what the most extreme situation aka kind of a fascist president And the necessity to put differences aside, but I think you're right. The timing is unfortunate because I think Alex Garland was probably writing this movie, in the midst of the height of Trump as president and all the controversy and difficulty around that during COVID. And so he's going further and being like, okay, but like if we allow this stuff. To happen because we are so divided where it can lead. Unfortunately we're at a point where it doesn't seem like, yeah, we're back to square one. We're in the exact same position and you're right. I feel like in, within that context, a lot of people maybe don't want to explore that subject.

James: 23:52

We like to discuss films that we're both passionate about. Whereas this, this one just, you know, I, just to put my cards on the table, I'm a huge fan of Alex Garland's a director. I've watched every single one of his films. I watched every episode of devs, you know,

Lily Mic: 24:03

Yeah. He, He, made ex machina,

James: 24:05

Mackinac, which

Lily Mic: 24:06

uh, annihilation.

James: 24:08

Yes. Which I love an underrated one. The last act of that I absolutely love, but,

Lily Mic: 24:11

See, I hate the last act of that. Ha

James: 24:13

See, really,

Lily Mic: 24:14

ha ha ha ha

James: 24:18

watch it's like, oh, it was worth it for the last act.

Lily Mic: 24:21

I was just like, what's going

James: 24:23

That's that scene in the lighthouse. Oh,

Lily Mic: 24:26

Yeah, for me, I was like, get What the, what's, where, we've devolved, we've devolved. Okay, so this is great, because, okay, so clearly, we are Alex Garland, we, we're kind of yin and yang on him. But there's a lot of love there in, in the

James: 24:40

but, oh yeah, We're both here for him., I just, I just. Just think that this film, it's very literal. There's, there's no poetry. it's unrelentingly literal and I, perhaps that's what it is for me, I realize that the world right now is on a knife edge. I, I'm aware of that. And so seeing it literally portrayed, I just think it just was a bit too much. It's right here right now. And when I turn the news on, it's like exactly the same.

Lily Mic: 25:08

but maybe that's what we need though. Yeah,

James: 25:11

Let's see what the audience decide. Let's the box office. I think this could be a bit too much of an ask of an audience to kind of get that over the, let's say it needs to make a hundred million to break even. Let, let's see if it gets there. I, I'm not sure it will.

Lily Mic: 25:25

that, I mean, that opener on Thursday was good. It was strong. It's 2. 5 mil, but yeah, there could be a steep drop off. I, I think maybe your gut is right. I think the fact that I, enjoyed this action movie so much means they probably won't do very well.

James: 25:41

Absolutely I certainly wouldn't recommend this to anybody who likes action movies. This would not be on a list of recommendations because it's not really an action movie. It's a film about a civil war. And because of that, it has some action in it.

Lily Mic: 25:53

I think we were having the same kind of thoughts because I also did think about the fact that it isn't, it's not a beautiful film to look at. It's like, obviously got a big budget, but it's very, he's not done anything that interesting with the cinematography or anything like that. And again, I'm sure, a deliberate choice because I, I think Ex Machina looks amazing.

James: 26:14

Interesting you should say that because it's the same cinematographer. He's worked with Rob Hardy, if not on all of his films, then nearly all of them. So he did X Men and he also shot Civil War. And it's interesting that you should note the cinematography because they did shoot it on a brand new camera that's like innovative in that, um, it's got a built in gimbal to stabilize the image. So you have a camera body and it's like basically got a built in steadicam. So you can just pick it up and start shooting. It'll look smooth and it'll look nice. You don't have to put tracks down

Lily Mic: 26:39

There you go. It was very

James: 26:41

I. Yeah, and it, but what it does, it just means you can kind of shoot run and gun quite fast and it looks all right. But I did notice that, especially on the IMAX screen, like those people's faces, it, you saw every pock and every hole. And again, in this kind of gritty civil war, it works, but it just means you're looking at a lot of faces and it's not the most flattering image. And

Lily Mic: 27:00

you know, that, that, that works for the movie. We,

James: 27:02

I know, I know, but I like, I just like a little bit of just, just a little bit. Come on.

Lily Mic: 27:09

No, I

James: 27:09

I don't want to see every pole.

Lily Mic: 27:10

Oh, no, I'm, I'm happy. I'm happy with the pause. I'm happy with the pause. But, and the other thing I wanted to, to say, something that, like, I kept thinking about during the film was the fact that the film is very much focused on the story of these journalists and particularly photojournalists capturing the importance of capturing photos. On the ground in war because actually the heyday of photojournalism has been in gone. Photojournalism in conflict is basically a dying industry as a lot of industries today because of the rise of the smartphone and how Interconnected we are across the world. You know, you don't need to hire a journalist from the New York Times to To fly to this way and that way, there won't be, there wouldn't be a photojournalist flying in from Hong Kong to be on the ground during a civil war because everyone is on their phones posting images on social media all the time of what's going on around them. And you can just lift those images, you know, or buy them from, you know, the internet. X or whatever and, and use them. That is how the industry now works. You know, this is something that photojournalists are talking about. The fact that there isn't really the business for it anymore, which is those pros and cons to that. You know, it just felt very, very, out of step with actually what's happening in the world. And they did, uh, there was this moment where they talked about, oh, no signals. So I think they were trying to, for a very brief moment, explain why it was made sense, but it's like, okay, sure. I

James: 28:36

well, Lily, you've, you've just parked us right in a topic that I was thinking, can I wedge this in here? So I'm going to go for it now. Do you fancy having a quick talk about synecdoches or synecdoches? You tell me how you pronounce it. Cause I'm not sure synecdoches. Synecdoches.

Lily Mic: 28:48

I don't know what you're saying.

James: 28:50

a synecdoche. It's a part that represents the whole, so

Lily Mic: 28:56

A part that represents the heart. How do you spell that? Oh my gosh, you're teaching me

James: 29:00

N E C. It's like Synecdoche, New York, the film by Charlie Kaufman.

Lily Mic: 29:05

Oh, yes, I have seen that movie. I, yeah, I didn't know how you I

James: 29:10

So anyway, leave us a comment on our socials. Tell us how we pronounce it. Let's go with Synecdoche, right? So anyway, it's a part that represents the whole. And so, um, in filmmaking, I think the shot of the Harkonnen's whips in dune when we have that close up on their belts and you can see a whip. That one shot, of a part of a Harkonnen represents the entire society. That whip represents immediately brutality, cruelty, sadism. So, you know, from one shot you get a whole,

Lily Mic: 29:36

Love it. Obsessed with

James: 29:38

I there's a moment in Civil War, I just thought, ah, this one part is summing up, I think the whole kind of, there's just something not quite gelling for me. It was when Jesse is developing her 35 millimeter film.

Lily Mic: 29:53

what you were going to say, James. Because yeah, for me as well, I was like, eh,

James: 29:57

What? And, and just that, like, like, I'm a huge advocate for film. You know, I go on about film all the time, but not in a war zone.

Lily Mic: 30:05

Yeah, so she's on some bleachers in a makeshift camp and she's got all of her film equipment with her. She's got her film. She's developing it there. Analog film Yeah, she's got the chemicals, she's putting them in a thing, she's bringing out the film, and, but then, to tie it to the modern day, she's, she's somehow feeding it through this device to look at her images on her phone, and it's just like, I'm sorry, in what world were the 23 year old, I don't care that these cameras are her dad that she would be shooting on film. It makes no sense.

James: 30:40

In what world does Kirsten Dunst, a grizzled, experienced combat veteran, a photographer not go, What the fuck are you doing shooting on film in a war zone? She's just like totally calm, but so It was that thing I realized then it's like, ah, we're, we're watching a film that is, set in an alternate world, but it's not quite grounded. So if that thing isn't quite grounded, right. You know, like everything

Lily Mic: 31:02

yeah, because it's meant, it's meant to be completely, completely realistic. And then we've got this very jarring thing that

James: 31:08

Yeah.

Lily Mic: 31:09

wouldn't be happening.

James: 31:11

So I was like, Ooh, that's the Synodoke thing going on there. I'll bring it up with Lily if I can get it in there.

Lily Mic: 31:15

So you're saying that the synecdoche is the fact that it does, the film doesn't work. And that, that one scene, it reflects the whole.

James: 31:22

Because I think that's, that's, that one scene is the most visible where you go, Oh wait, that doesn't quite ring true. And I think I had that feeling throughout the whole film. Like it's just not quite ringing true and I can't put my finger on it. And in that one scene, it's like, Oh no, I can put my finger on what's going there.

Lily Mic: 31:37

Okay. Yeah, I see that. I see that. That moment was jarring for me too. And there are a few moments like that, but I think overall, I hate to say it sounds very wanky, but I think it's an important film and it's, and it does, at least it made me, you know, I think, and I'm glad, I'm glad it exists, and I think, I think Axelrod did a good job. I think it's solid, I think as far as a big budget movie goes, it's very interesting and very different. I mean, I've never seen a film that so starkly shows the brutality. of war and I appreciated that. So I think, I think it's solid. I think everyone should go see it. I want A24 to continue to do well and I, I don't want them to go into franchise or generic movie territory. And this film is definitely original, but you're right, maybe it doesn't always land well.

James: 32:27

I'm with you on that Lily. I want A24 to succeed and go ahead, so I don't want to discourage people from seeing this film. But for me, uh, uh, it's, you know, it, I,

Lily Mic: 32:38

It's definitely worth watching. It will make you think, this film would not have been made without Trump, despite it being, you know, it's, it's reflective of the world over, you know, this is not specific to America, even though it's an odd time to go see it in a way. I think it makes it's an important time to go say I

James: 32:56

I do agree with you that this film absolutely wouldn't exist without Trump, and I think that also somehow again plays into this muddied water because the fictional world they've set it in, it's not clear which side we're on, and I get that, but it's also clear that it has, this film wouldn't have happened without Trump, so it's clear that the president in the White House is a Trump esque president, so even though we're trying to say, Ah, but it's not quite clearly one side. There's clearly a side that the writer has taken. And I think he's just tried to obfuscate that a little bit.

Lily Mic: 33:27

I actually think his side isn't it's not about being Democrat or Republican. I think the whole film is about not being polarized. And therefore the film itself isn't polarized. We're not entering into this conflict clearly on one side or the other. I think it's just meant to show, two things. And that might be the problem that it was right, is it's actually not very clear in its mission. Because on the one hand, I think it's a film all about journalism and the role of the press and, how clinical and cold that needs to be. And the film reflects that, but then also it's it's got this political message going on, but the whole point they're trying to do is not, it's not get political and that is the message. But if you don't get political, then you're not really getting into it. And then what's going on. And then I thought the ending of it, just to quickly finish on that note, without giving any spoilers, you know, You're really not rooting for The good guys, even at the end, you know, it's it reminded me The film kind of reminded me of Guantanamo Bay at the end and that's not a spoiler I don't think like it really isn't but it just like it was like so so cold And harsh and you know, no one's coming out of this looking good. And I think that is the whole point. But you're right. It does. It does. It perhaps that can feel a bit confused at time or a little bit unclear. And I'm happy with that. I liked the lack of clarity. I like that the film was giving me things to think about without being very clear But maybe, yeah, maybe that could for a lot of people, that could be a shortcoming sure.

James: 35:01

I'm definitely very interested to see how this plays out in the next couple of weeks. My feeling is it's not going to be as controversial as perhaps we might think in its being, I don't know. Let's see how it plays out.

Lily Mic: 35:11

think we're at a point now, I think, I don't think it's, I think the fact that it doesn't take a strong position means that it won't be that controversial. But, I don't know if that's what people want from a big action blockbuster. Maybe, well it's just the fact that so much money was spent on the movie. If, if they'd had a smaller budget for it, it might have been a bit safer. I just don't know if they needed that big budget. But I guess, To get a custom dunced.

James: 35:35

but it was more than, you know, some of the action set pieces, they are quite spectacular when you, when you watch them, you're like, oh, wait, when the action does kick in, it's pretty good.

Lily Mic: 35:43

that final, the scene is, the final scene is really epic. People, I felt, they wanted to be like, okay, cool. Now we're getting going. There were a few amazing set pieces.

James: 35:53

Oh, yeah, yeah, there were some moments in it where absolutely that's Alex Garland, he's hit his stride in these sequence and the sound design all the way through was excellent. I love that bit right at the beginning with the static burst from the TV sets going all around you and the A24 logo came up. So, you know, lots I enjoyed, but for me, I'll still go to the next Alex Garland film, but this for me was a bit of a misstep, but I'm looking forward to his next film, you know, because he is a good director.

Lily Mic: 36:15

Yeah, totally. All right. Well, shall we finish with a trip to the film pharmacy?

James: 36:22

Absolutely.

Lily Mic: 36:27

Okay, so we have a letter that goes something like this. Dear Lily and James, I experienced a low point recently where I was washing the shih tzu of a Russian oligarch in a flooded shower in the dark. How can I feel better? I honestly, I don't know. Why was it flooded and why was it dark? Anyway, how can I feel better about working for the man? Slash summon the courage to ask them to change the light bulb. Okay, That's why we're in the dark. The light bulb was out.

James: 37:00

There we go. I mean, there's so many, there's enough question I there's more questions than I can answer with a film recommendation here

Lily Mic: 37:06

It's true. It's true.

James: 37:08

but I've, of course, we've got stuff up our sleeves, I'm sure. How about you, Lily? So what, what do, what are you thinking, Lily? What's, what's your, film prescription.

Lily Mic: 37:16

Okay. Well, my film prescription is also a throw forward to our next episode because I don't know, cross promoter. Is it also laziness that I didn't think of anything else? But it just, it just comes to mind that I think it would suit. So I think that Perfect Days is a good film to make you feel better about working for the man. Because this is a film that we're going to be talking about next week, along with Zone of Interest, which we also talked about earlier. So guys, Ahead of that, maybe you should watch both these movies. I would strongly recommend, they're both fantastic. And definitely perfect days for reasons that we will explain in two weeks time. I think it really does. It's a real balm for anyone doing what could be considered kind of, yeah, dog's body work.

James: 38:00

Uh,

Lily Mic: 38:01

what I did there? Heh

James: 38:02

I see what you did there Uh, so yeah, I, I, I, uh, look, was thinking, stretching my brain. And the one that dropped into my head was idiocracy. Um, I don't know if you've seen that. It's, uh, it follows. Uh, a guy called Joe Bowers, and he's a completely average American who works for the U. S. military. He's just like, I would say below average, but let's just say it's average intelligence. And for that, for that exact reason, for his average IQ, he's selected for a military, experiment, which is, he's going to be put into a cryogenic hibernation, for, I think a hundred years, but something goes wrong and he falls asleep 500 years, and he wakes up in an America of the future. And it basically what's happened is, um, that dumbing down has occurred over the generations, just slowly, and it shows you how the dumbing down occurs and it shows you like little Vox Pops of people over the decades and the years. And so suddenly this completely average American is now the brainiest man on the planet. And so it's a comedy following him as an average man is now a superhero in the world that he's woken up in. Yeah,

Lily Mic: 39:08

concept. It's almost like you wanted to come up with something that was like the opposite of Civil War. You're like, I want something that's like super explained, super, super full of, of the story, the backstory, the future story.

James: 39:23

and a comedy and a good laugh because I just watched Civil War. I need to cheer up.

Lily Mic: 39:27

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Good. Perfect. I think that's, that sounds amazing. Okay. So how would that make this listener feel better about working for the man?

James: 39:36

yeah, it's, it's tangential at best. I will be honest with you, but I would say it's something along the lines of it could be much worse.

Lily Mic: 39:44

Okay, I love that. Great. I think that works. Perfect. All right. Well, thanks everyone for listening to another episode of Groovy Movies.

James: 39:52

Thank you as always. And if you could leave us a like five star review, it all helps get the podcast out to a wider audience.

Lily Mic: 39:58

So we'll see you in two weeks time. Bye guys!

James: 40:01

Bye.