Game. Set. Match. (Is that right?) Two of tennis’ greatest novices tackle our most romantic sport in a battle of the ages. Which is the better tennis movie? Up-and-comer, Challengers, or seasoned champion, Wimbledon. But let’s be honest, it’s Zendaya v. Kirsten Dunst - who will win the title of most empowered woman on the court?
References
‘Challengers’ Heats Up: How Zendaya’s Star Power and a Sexy Love Triangle Could Give Gen Z Its Next Movie Obsession by Selome Hailu and Ramin Setoodeh for Variety
‘Challengers’ Director Luca Guadagnino Explains Origins Of The ‘Spider-Verse’ Reference by Armando Tinoco for Deadline
Sex and Tennis Make a Good Match in Challengers by Richard Lawson for Vanity Fair
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If you love what we do, please like, subscribe and leave a review!
Original music by James Brailsford
Logo design by Abby-Jo Sheldon
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Game. Set. Match. (Is that right?) Two of tennis’ greatest novices tackle our most romantic sport in a battle of the ages. Which is the better tennis movie? Up-and-comer, Challengers, or seasoned champion, Wimbledon. But let’s be honest, it’s Zendaya v. Kirsten Dunst - who will win the title of most empowered woman on the court?
References
‘Challengers’ Heats Up: How Zendaya’s Star Power and a Sexy Love Triangle Could Give Gen Z Its Next Movie Obsession by Selome Hailu and Ramin Setoodeh for Variety
‘Challengers’ Director Luca Guadagnino Explains Origins Of The ‘Spider-Verse’ Reference by Armando Tinoco for Deadline
Sex and Tennis Make a Good Match in Challengers by Richard Lawson for Vanity Fair
-----------
If you love what we do, please like, subscribe and leave a review!
Original music by James Brailsford
Logo design by Abby-Jo Sheldon
Follow us
Email us
If a guy brought me fish and chips, I'd be like, hell yeah, gimme! Welcome to Groovy Movies. My name is Lily Austin.
James Mic:And my name's James Brailsford. Hello.
Lily Mic:I kind of dragged out me saying my name because you were taking a sip of water there, James. I was like, give him a minute.
James Mic:I really appreciated that Lily. I'd noticed that as a slick, the listeners will never suspect a thing.
Lily Mic:I'm so glad we discussed it. That's great. How are you doing, James?
James Mic:I'm doing all right. Thank you. Yes. Uh, you know, this, this podcast has been, I feel, you know, it's a mixture of things. It's part film discussion, part therapy, part self discovery, you know? So, I feel like I've been on a journey of self discovery this past, uh, week or two for this particular episode. Yeah.
Lily Mic:Oh, really? Intriguing. Okay. Well, shall we get do you want to say more or do you want to dive into the conversation and all will be revealed?
James Mic:Because I've already teased it up, maybe like just get it out of there, get it out there rather than be a big tease, you know, but basically I think it may be like Lily. Okay. Here's the question for you, I guess from our friendship and knowing each other, what are my top three favorite sports? It's a kind of trick question, but.
Lily Mic:I, you're not, sports, and when I, James, you know what, I think of you every time I go for a run. And I think about in lockdown you telling me because you moved back to your parents over lockdown and obviously there was that initial bit where we weren't allowed to leave the house very often, the most intense bit of lockdown. And I remember you telling me that you and your parents had started doing a couch to 5k and we're doing circuits around the property. And for some reason, whenever I, it's whenever I do like a second, um, Of the park or wherever I'm running. It makes me think of you but I have to say that's the only kind of like athletic association I have with you. So my, the answer is no, no sports.
James Mic:no sports. Yeah. I, I, yeah. Essentially is that, is, is that for some reason, for whatever reason, just interest in sports? It's not in my makeup. Like I think, Whatever part of my brain probably should have a bit of sports appreciation, I think has just been swamped with stuff to do in film and TV. I just think it's like had a massive clear out in my brain for whatever reason, just sport never quite grabbed me. So, so it made me realize that I don't really watch sports related films and dramas just cause I'm not really into sports. So that I was like, ah, God damn it. I'm, and then I was like, why don't I like sport? And I just think I don't like the repetitive nature of it you're in one space, like a court, and the same actions are being repeated to very high degrees of skill. Uh, you know, I'm not here to diss sport. It just, I think for me, when I watch a film for 90 minutes, I can go back in time, into space, different locations, meet a cast of different characters. I think I like the variety, I think.
Lily Mic:conclusion. I think maybe I feel the same way. I don't, I feel like. Whenever I've watched sport, more often than not, it's because a significant other has come into my life who enjoys sport. And so I take a little holiday into an interest in sport for the time of
James Mic:Oh, I see. A bit like Taylor Swift being into, football, is it?
Lily Mic:like the American football,
James Mic:because I knew, I knew. the American,
Lily Mic:Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
James Mic:So net, net, net, you know, she,
Lily Mic:dating any actual sports people, just, you know, while she's watching him on the pitch, I'm supporting my boyfriend by watching a TV
James Mic:but you see,
Lily Mic:on the sofa.
James Mic:I'd say it's typical Taylor Swift. She does, she does the things that all, all, a lot of people do, but she just does them to like the ultimate
Lily Mic:yeah. And I tell myself I'm having a good time and I am in a sense because it's fun to bond with people, but then whenever the relationship ends, I always feel quite pleased. So I'm not going to have to engage with that anymore. You know, that's, that's,
James Mic:So in that case, if you feel that, you know, what, I guess, let's talk about the appeal.
Lily Mic:Well, well, yes, but I, but I would say actually Well, yes, but I, but I would say actually of all the sport, I think you're right is the repetitive thing is a bit boring, but actually tennis. I can be interested in to, I think a little bit more than other sports.
James Mic:Okay. Any particular reason why?
Lily Mic:I'm not sure. I think maybe because it's not a team sport. I like that the camera can be a bit closer in. You know with team sports they have to like when you, I'm really just thinking about football, I've not watched a lot actually but you know my dad watched a lot of rugby and cricket so yeah I've been on the periphery seeing people watch things and the camera is always pulled out so you can see most of the players on the pitch. It Feels very disconnected, I can't really be there when the emotion and at least with Wimbledon or, sorry, tennis, I've only ever seen a Wimbledon match occasionally. It's like, you can see their faces, you can see the sweat dripping from their faces. Just like in Challengers, as we'll discuss.
James Mic:a good, that's a good point. And, and perhaps that's why it's a sport that does have some films about it. Because at least you can get into the intensity of that moment with the characters. Because there's arcs that are familiar in both these films. Which is obviously, you've got The person passed their prime or not, you know, on a losing streak and they're turning it round and, you know, you need to see that in their faces. And so if it's a football match, I guess it's, it's harder to get the camera in there and make it work.
Lily Mic:Okay, well this is making me think that you, part of you was a little bit bored watching both movies. Is that the conclusion we can draw?
James Mic:Um, yeah, again, I guess essentially just the sportiness of it. It didn't engage me. That's right. it was fighting against me getting into the films. Just like, ah, no, not the bit where it's the sport, which is obviously, it's fundamental to the drama. The two things are interconnected. So, but because
Lily Mic:the same way.
James Mic:okay. Oh, interesting. Okay.
Lily Mic:Okay. Well, let's just Okay, so we're talking about Challenges and Wimbledon. Because Challenges is this new, quite hotly anticipated movie with Zendaya, couple of other male actors, but whatever, less important. Zendaya was the big
James Mic:Dante, I mean, Zendaya, and I couldn't tell you who the other two actors are, but Zendaya.
Lily Mic:Okay, so the other two actors are Josh O'Connell, who I think is a really great actor, actually, and he's
James Mic:Oh, I'm not dissing the actors, it's just Zendaya, it's one word, I can remember that, it's very memorable. It's personal branding, just call yourself Fred, and there you go, it's Fred and Zendaya in this film. I can't do second names as well, you're asking too much of
Lily Mic:Fred and Zendaya.
James Mic:There we go,
Lily Mic:yeah. So it's, so it's Zendaya, Josh O'Connor and, Mike Feist. And they play tennis pros or, uh, coming up tennis pros. I don't know, you kind of meet them at different times. It's non linear. We see them further along in their career and earlier on and, and all of that. And I just, I was very excited to see this movie because Luca Guadagnino. directed it and he's one of my favorite directors, love his movies, Call Me By Your Name, amazing, I Am Love, incredible. Haven't seen Bones and All yet.
James Mic:and neither have I.
Lily Mic:that's a, yeah, that's a blind spot. Sorry Timothée, we'll get to that. but I just thought this is a great, opportunity for us to discuss a really underappreciated, undervalued, pivotal movie, Wimbledon. So,
James Mic:Well,
Lily Mic:so we're going to do a compare and contrast.
James Mic:I can't wait, I can't wait because here's the thing, Lily, here's the thing. Even though, sports movies don't really engage me, watching Wimbledon I was like, oh, I've got a lot to say about this though. certainly tickled my filmmaker fancy, that's for sure.
Lily Mic:yes, I can, I can see that. Okay. Well, Uh, let's start with challenges as, as it's out now, it's hot, it's, it's topical, and, and the movie is quite hot, I would say. my big takeaway from the movie is that, I think both the way that it's filmed and the performances of Josh O'Connor and Mike Feist are impressive because I don't find either of them attractive, and they are nothing on Zendayas. hotness, but within the film it was plausible that they would have this kind of threesome dynamic of this, this love triangle. So good on them, all of them.
James Mic:Good on them. Well done. Good job. Yeah. Well, I have to say number one, I did see it late at night and I have to accept now late night movie viewing is a tough one for me. I'm much more alert in the morning, like the zone of interest at 10 AM. That was one of my favorite cinema moments of the last couple of years. But, but like evening, I'm just my brain's like, yeah, it's all a bit fuzzy. So I have to, first up, I got to confess, I really struggled with a nonlinear. I, you know, and you know me, I'm a
Lily Mic:Yeah, I thought that, I thought you'd be very happy about that.
James Mic:And so did I. But then I was like, oh wait, 14 years earlier. Now who's in a relationship with who now? And I just, I had problems keeping tabs on, In the different time zones, who was going out with who at what point. I just struggled, and I think maybe it was more to do with the fact that I was tired. And also, I have a little mini peeve with, non linear storytelling where they flash a card and say 14 years earlier.
Lily Mic:was going to say that. I was going to say that. I kept thinking during the film, is it really necessary to do that? Because 14 years kind of, Oh, so now I have to quickly do the maths of how
James Mic:Yeah, and I'm terrible with maths. I hate maths. Don't make me do maths.
Lily Mic:yeah, I think it would have been better if they'd have been like, junior tennis open would just have been the card to flash up when it goes back to them first meeting. Cause they meet when they're, The three of them are young, all around 18, about to go to university, all playing and becoming, they're all rising stars in tennis.
James Mic:It made me think about how do other directors do it, and obviously, referencing Nolan, you can do things like shoot it in black and white for one sequence, or you shoot in a different kind of film stock, so it looks a bit differently, you know, or a different aspect ratio, there's, I mean, the thing is, all of those things are deliberate choices, the director might like, no, I want the entire film to have a particular style that doesn't change, but I might have, Appreciated maybe the older stuff being maybe on digital on video. So it looks a bit like a older foot, you know, I dunno, there's, there's other ways that could be used to orient your viewers.
Lily Mic:I think, I think even, they did a great job at making them look younger, and acting younger.
James Mic:I, dunno, Zendaya felt the same and that didn't help me. She said she seems ageless in all of it.
Lily Mic:Yeah, well, not even age, it was like, it seemed implausible to me that she was like, 30 with a child. Like,
James Mic:Yeah. Yeah. All
Lily Mic:she's she's too young for that, but, but like, with Zendaya it was fine because she, her, you're right, she didn't change, but her hair changed. So it was very clear. It
James Mic:Okay. Oh no, I didn't look, I didn't, I didn't even clock the hair. Jesus Christ.
Lily Mic:from having this, like, very chic short bob to having this beautiful long hair
James Mic:Oh yeah.
Lily Mic:ones.
James Mic:Oh, no, I didn't even glog that.
Lily Mic:Okay, well, for me that made it very clear, and I thought the guys did a really good job when you meet them when they're younger.
James Mic:They do seem like
Lily Mic:different they are, they're so playful with each other, so young seeming. They, I think they're both actually really, really great actors, so, so yeah, I don't think maybe you needed the card, I don't know. I, I also like it when it feels like they're trying to confuse me a little bit and like I have
James Mic:Oh, see, I, I was too, I was too tired for any of that shit. I
Lily Mic:But they weren't
James Mic:be
Lily Mic:that because they were, they were in a way spoon feeding in that they were giving us all the time so I was like okay, I don't know, it feels a bit clumsy, yeah, when it's like that's, we're going back again now, blah blah blah. But for me it was actually, it was just that I think they cut back and forth too much. I would have much rather, because the way the film works is, we start at this match between The two main guys, Josh O'Connor, who plays Patrick, and Mark Vize, who plays Art. So Patrick and Art are on the court. Tashi, played by Zendaya, is watching them, looking very gorgeous in this light blue dress, in the audience of the game.
James Mic:the crowd.
Lily Mic:yeah, she's, yeah. But she's right there, in the middle, between them, watching this match. And then the film swings between going back in time to various moments telling the story of their relationship and then coming back to the match. So when you first meet them, there's obviously something going on between the three of them, but you don't yet know what their relationship is. And then it turns out that Patrick and Art went to tennis, boarding schools together when they were kids. They were bunk buddies since they were 12. So they're basically in a relationship. They're very, very close. They meet Zendaya, see her play tennis, are completely besotted, as quite rightly as they should be. And then the three of them kind of hit it off and, and, She sees immediately that they have, the two guys have this quote, dynamic and both of them are clearly interested in her. And she says she doesn't want to be a homewrecker, but clearly that is what she's both. She knows that she has power in this dynamic and they all, and then it kind of. It feed, they feed off each other in this way. And then, but because we keep jump every single scene it feels, we go back to this final match, and I feel like it loses a bit of momentum over time. I feel like it would've been stronger just to start at the
James Mic:Yep. Go back.
Lily Mic:At
James Mic:Yeah.
Lily Mic:Rather than going back and forth. Cause by the end I, cause it's almost a whole hour, that final match. The final act. I know because I watched the movie twice and I, I didn't want to leave actually, I was really into it. But I left, I didn't have time to watch the whole thing. So I just watched the first hour and ten minutes. And I was like, oh okay, there's an hour left, I'm gonna go. And I could see that that was, we were about to get into the main meat of this final match. That's gonna go on for a whole hour. It just drags the whole thing on so much. So I understand why you were feeling like, Ooh,
James Mic:Yeah,
Lily Mic:is not keeping my attention. Cause it
James Mic:yeah,
Lily Mic:much.
James Mic:I just, just hearing you describe the setup of this kind of romantic triangle, it makes me think, Oh, a little bit in the vein of maybe design for living that we've discussed in that the female character is like the muse who wants to inspire them to greatness to a degree and Zendaya does that by being the kind of the coach for one of them. So there's a touch of that in there. I thought, you know, this is the, this is how, when you have these kind of throuple stories So in the two that we've seen, that's the dynamic that powers the drama.
Lily Mic:totally. I think you're right. But in this, in this film, they're all very dysfunctional. And, and, and Tashi Tashi Duncan is a very, very dysfunctional human being who, yeah, This scene that really kind of crystallizes it all is this threesome, where, the three of them after the first meeting are together and it's, and it's, it's a very sexy scene. but Tashi kind of initiates that they should come and sit with her and kiss her. she's the one totally in control of this whole thing and they're just following her and then kind of follow her lead into making out with each other. And she just sits back and smiles, watching them kiss. basically the fact that she can manipulate and control these guys to do
James Mic:yeah,
Lily Mic:what she wants and she can have total power and that kind of feeds into everything that follows on from it. But that's obviously how she feels about tennis as well. She out of the three of them is completely obsessed with the game and the only thing she cares about is doing tennis and then the crucial element is the fact that she then injures herself so can't play anymore. So instead she puts her energy. into art, into Mike Fyce character at the expense of Patrick.
James Mic:I think I was just tired, it was a mixture of I was tired, so like all this plot was just like, wait, oh God, who, what, where, and then, then it's like, and tennis, and tennis for an hour. Oh yeah, so it was, but I appreciate the performance of Zendaya was like, you know, she's obviously at peak Zendaya right now, isn't she? You know, it was a great vehicle for her.
Lily Mic:okay, but the tennis, the madness of the tennis, right, was when. Luca Guadagnino just like, goes mad in the final. There's like a, the problem with it, okay, there are lots of problems with it. I mean, I love it. We need to actually get into what I love about it, because I think that this film is pretty genius in lots of ways. But, the thing that I found difficult is, if you don't know the game of tennis, it is very, very confusing watching this final match. I didn't really understand what had happened because I didn't
James Mic:I had, I, I
Lily Mic:net, you'll, you'll lose the point.
James Mic:neither did I, I had to
Lily Mic:had won or lost. I didn't know what was going on.
James Mic:I was like, oh, it's one of those ambiguous ending things, isn't it? But, but,
Lily Mic:It was, but I didn't, I didn't know, I didn't even know that So the crux of it, right, is the fact that, the notion that is set out early on in the movie, Zendaya says the kind of, Concept of the film, which is that tennis is a relationship. When you're really playing tennis, you're like, it's like dancing with the other person. and then in this very final point, that is what happens. Finally, the guys play tennis the way she wants them to play tennis. Back and forth, going crazy, they're volleying, Apparently that is completely fantastical and implausible, you can't volley for that long. But I don't know, I didn't, I didn't know that watching, it just looked impressive. It's so crazy, what the camera does during this scene, because one minute it's like POV, looking at art as if you're Josh O'Connor, then suddenly the camera turns into the ball, And as the camera's flying through the air, it's like, I was travel sick, I couldn't even look at it. At another point, the camera is the ground, and the ball is bouncing on the camera, and sweat is dripping onto us. It's like, what is going on here? This is like, too much and too jarring and confusing, and it made me, I
James Mic:we were made, we were being made to experience the game of tennis as if we were in the middle of the game.
Lily Mic:if we were literally the ball. But,
James Mic:I know. But, but also that is a common, well, a common thread between these two films. They both have POV ball shots. I think it's kind
Lily Mic:No, no. no. Not Wimbledon doesn't do it in the way that Challenges does. I never feel travel sick when I watch Wimbledon. There is a moment where it kind of But it doesn't It doesn't do it in this like, Boop, boop, boop, boop, back and forth way.
James Mic:no, no, no,
Lily Mic:like that is where Wimbledon is stronger than Challenges. I felt like that final scene in Wimbledon, they spoon feed you what's going on. You know exactly what's going on and it makes it very exciting. In this, I was like, I know this is a big deal. I can feel something's going on, but I don't understand because I don't know this game. It's not my sport, but it doesn't matter to me because the first hour and 10 minutes at least, are very, very interesting and exciting. the kind of tension between Art and Patrick, they have this chemistry between the scenes where it's just the two of them and you really feel their love for each other the sparks, the chemistry, and then there's a lot of in the movie of kind of going with Patrick and seeing how he's interested in guys and, and he obviously has these feelings for art. Though I feel like maybe more could have been made of that. I feel like it's not gone into as much as I would like but there's this element to the relationship and then you see how Tashi kind of uses, she's like the ball between the two tennis players. She ping
James Mic:oh.
Lily Mic:that between each of them and
James Mic:Oh, right.
Lily Mic:got her own like intention with that, right? But it's all about, you're right, it's all about bringing out their excellence, you know? Like, when she says to them, early on when they meet, I'll give my number to the person who wins the match more because they're playing a match against each other. That is what sparks Art to play well.
James Mic:Absolutely.
Lily Mic:Patrick does win because he is the better player, it seems. But, ultimately when Tashi decides that Patrick doesn't care enough about tennis for her to be worth her time, which obviously is kind of crazy. It's crazy. She gets with that and pushes him to be, like, the most amazing athlete he could be and there's no way he could have done that on his own because he just doesn't seem to care nearly enough to want it. And I just, even though it felt so beyond the realm of reality, like, I don't think people really behave in this way, I loved watching, The kind of power plays that were going on between all of them. Because there are different moments where each of them manipulate the other one and try are trying to get something out of their little their triangle.
James Mic:as we're talking now, especially with your excellent metaphor for Zendaya being the ball kind of bouncing between them both. Maybe that's like the structure of the film is that why we have these kind of whip snaps between different time zones is we're kind of like doing a, a tennis volley, you know, the film is like volleying you from and maybe that whip snap was a bit much perhaps.
Lily Mic:other thing I was thinking was, because of the way the structure of the story before the main match is, is that Tashi meets Patrick and Art. And then, she says, I'll give my number to whoever wins, so Patrick wins. So she gives him her number, and they start to date. And that's kind of the first chapter of their triangle. Is the fact that Tashi is with Patrick, and Art is jealous, and wants Tashi. It's much more about them than it is her, really. This competitive sportsman thing, and then Patrick and Tashley have this argument and then she injures herself and Art kind of fucks Patrick over and is like, I'm going to be there for Tashley, and supports her and not wanting to speak to Patrick and then their relationship begins. And so, The first chapter is her with Patrick, the second chapter is her with Art. it's like they're playing tennis, and Patrick's won the first round, Art's won the second, who's gonna win the third? It's all to play for.
James Mic:That's a good point actually, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then of course you get your ambiguous ending. So, haha, not telling you, not telling you. God damn it.
Lily Mic:but in a way they all win, right? Because she brings out their excellence and their full potential. Which again, it's just really not something I can, I relate to very hard. I've never wanted anything that much. But it's it's interesting, but, okay. I wanna talk to you about this notion of tennis being a relationship. Because a friend of the podcast, Amantus Pekunas, my dear friend, he loves to play tennis, and he found this notion absurd. He seemed even a little angry about it. He was like, Tennis is not a relationship. Tennis is not about the other person. In his mind, he was like, Competition isn't relationship. All you're thinking about is yourself, what you've got to do, and the ball. You know, the whole thing with tennis is that you're not even allowed to speak to the other competitor. You know, there's meant to be no communication because that could throw them off. So the whole point is you don't have a relationship. You're very much just, in your own head, doing your own thing. So, he kind of disagreed with the whole premise of the movie altogether. What do you think about that?
James Mic:Well, I mean, as somebody who has absolutely no interest in sport, I feel uniquely unqualified to have any opinion. However, you did ask, so, I can't imagine that you couldn't, from what you've said, technically, that all makes sense, but you must have, even if it's a fictional relationship because you don't know the person, you must have a relationship with the person you are trying to dominate and beat for something that's really important to you.
Lily Mic:I feel like
James Mic:you've got to want to beat the other person, which means you must have some thoughts about that other person.
Lily Mic:I feel like he would disagree and I'm not a competitive person So I don't know if I feel like there's potential to want to win without caring maybe about the other person but his thinking was that like For it to have friendships and relationships. You can't be competitive, but I felt like the whole point Especially in a love triangle is that a love triangle is such because there is this like jealousy and competition and sense of, and I felt like their whole
James Mic:Well, it's, sorry, in your ethically non monogamous one, yes. I mean, sorry, sorry, non unethical, unethical, unethical threesome. You know, it's, it's that,
Lily Mic:But just say, okay, so do you never feel any kind of sense of like, are you not like
James Mic:Oh yeah, no, there is
Lily Mic:by the notion of jealousy or whatever?
James Mic:I'm not, oh, I hate it. No, jealousy is horrible. Jealousy is never fun. And it, but it does crop up, you're right. It just, it's just not acted out so much. It's more discussed and just like faded away. Yeah. We're not pushing it, just, it's just dealt with. It like talked through rather than like, fuck you. I'm going to sleep with so and so. No, I'm going to sleep with so and so and I'm going to win them. You know, it's, it doesn't go that in that direction.
Lily Mic:But in this film, there definitely seems to be an idea that jealousy is like, it's in the same school of, school of, group of emotions as competition, and these things can be like, Healthy. Or maybe not healthy, I actually, none of them are healthy, so not healthy. But they can, they can add, they can give something to a relationship. I'm not sure if that, I mean, that doesn't seem right to me. But, what do you reckon? Do you think
James:I, I did, I, I did, uh, I think we get, we, I think we were feeling that is jealousy, though, a catalyst for like greatness. Is that what we're trying to say that in tennis, that the jealous dynamic that we have, that, They were competing for for Tashi's, attentions. and this jealousy then drives their performance in sport. Maybe, uh, I'm, I'm reaching here. I'm clutching.
Lily Mic:yeah. I think so.
James Mic:Writing and let us know.
Lily Mic:I do think that, it's not like the best thing. But I do think it's realistic that there is like, can be a sense of competition with your friends or in relationships. But it's not a nice feeling, is it, really? I don't, I don't want
James Mic:I mean, Hey, listen, listen, look, what my partner said that, uh, somebody they've just started seeing what tidies the, does the bed wants to get up? I was like, right motherfucker. I'm doing the bed as well. Well, as soon as I get up.
Lily Mic:Okay, yeah, so actually, it can be, James, that is a perfect example. It can be a, a hell, it can,
James Mic:I'm
Lily Mic:to be, to greatness,
James Mic:to do
Lily Mic:excellence. well, I thought this idea was interesting that basically the whole premise of the movie is like incorrect and tennis isn't about relations because I feel like that is closer to how Wimbledon is, the premise of Wimbledon is that, or at least the kind of idea that is voiced is that love means nothing in tennis, love means zero. And obviously, and actually, in, in, in, that is the opposite of what that film is about. But funnily enough, in Challenges, that is kind of what it's about. Definitely, there is not love there between, oh, there is a kind of love, but love is something that is not prioritised, certainly by Tashi's character, Zendaya's
James Mic:Wait, quick, quick question for someone who doesn't know nothing about sport. I know that there's the phrase love is used in tennis and that equals zero, is that what it means?
Lily Mic:Yeah, yeah, yeah. so so zero,
James Mic:zero, right. God, I hadn't even thought
Lily Mic:So when you say like, love 15, that means
James Mic:Hmm, right. I hadn't even thought of the duality Oh my
Lily Mic:I honestly think the screenwriters, that was their like starting point, the seed of it because This is a film about the fact that love, hilarious love and te they can be love and tennis. It can be amazing,
James Mic:As soon as Wimbledon, I started watching Wimbledon. I was like, ah, working title. I was like, I, I know what's coming. I know what's coming.
Lily Mic:yeah, it's exactly, exactly. But I think, with Wimbledon, the film very much. I think it shows tennis much more as, as a solo sport. The way my friend, the way our man has described it is that it's the player, the, the people that the main character is competing against, you bet they're really sketched out, but, when he's playing, it's very much we're in his head. We're with him It's just him and the ball. And I really enjoy those bits. Yeah. I love those bits. I think they're really strong. Okay. So let's talk about Wimbledon and talk me through, explain why working title is significant.
James Mic:Well, it, it immediately evokes a certain type of film from a certain period of time. So like, I would say the mid nineties to mid naughties, I would say was when. There was just a lot of working title films that were made that were also very popular. And so like working title, it became this, I don't know, byword for a kind of certain British film product. So, you know, when I think of working title, I think that the main protagonist will, or one of them at least, will be the most British English person ever. And it will deal, it'll be a romantic drama with some comedy. It'll probably be set in some kind of British setting. The background of a profession of some kind in this, in this particular case, Richard Jones's diary.
Lily Mic:Yes. It's very good. It's very strong.
James Mic:I mean, you know, that's the archetypal work in title film. And of course, immediately, I was like, what are the, where, what connections, kind of, what connecting tissue can I find between this film and Bridget Jones, for example? So I went immediately to the screenwriters, and one of the screenwriters didn't do Bridget Jones, but did do the Edge of Reason film. That was, I think, the next year or two years after, um, Wimbledon.
Lily Mic:We don't talk about that film.
James Mic:Oh, dear. Okay, okay.
Lily Mic:But
James Mic:uh, So, you know, they're essentially of a sort. And, I was watching, Paul, it's Paul Bettany, right, play the lead character. And as that, he's essaying the archetypal, like, British romantic comedy lead. He's a bit bumbling, he's self effacing, he's lovely. Very, yeah, I was, and a part of me was like, was this written for Hugh Grant? But I suspect he would've not. He, I
Lily Mic:was a bit after Hugh Grant's, yeah, yeah, there's no way Hugh Grant could have been a tennis player.
James Mic:yeah, a little bit tall. So, but, but it could easily be Hugh Grant, you know, it's, it's that character.
Lily Mic:totally, yeah. So yeah, because Wimbledon, it came out in 2004. so very much, I think of it as one of the last greats of the rom com era, you know. And, and yes, and it's directed by Richard Longcrane.
James Mic:Who fun, fun. Well, interesting. You don't know him because I do know him and like, for a while. I, I, I remember in my head thinking I'd be happy if I had the directing career of Richard Long Crane because, he, he's not a writer director. He's a director. and, and he does good stuff. And it's clear that he loves directing movies. He likes films to look like films. I love Richard iii. If I would recommend any Richard Long Crane film for you to check out, Richard II is Immaculate. It's a Shakespeare film, Set in 1930s England if it was a fascist government. It's excellent.
Lily Mic:okay, that sounds very, very different to Wimbledon.
James Mic:Yeah but also that's why I like Richard Long Crane. That's why I used him as like a little bit of an expert Yeah, very he can turn his because I do think a good director. You can turn your hand to most things So yeah, Richard the third and Wimbledon completely different, but you can see it's a good director working on different material
Lily Mic:and I, and yeah, the, the Bridget Jones connection I think is, is there in the cast and that there's an amazing cast.
James Mic:is a great ensemble cast.
Lily Mic:yeah, yeah. I feel like it. After this particular era, when budgets were still pretty healthy for rom coms, you would have your two leads, and they would be great, and then you'd also have a very rich surrounding cast, and you know, so it's Paul Bettany playing Peter Colt, and Kirsten Dance playing Lizzie Bradbury, and then we've got Sam Neill playing Lizzie's father, we've got James McAvoy playing, and Lycra playing Paul Bettany's brother, who's like obsessed with cycling, we've got playing Peter's mother. It's just like, like Robert Lindsay randomly, you know, the guy from my family playing the country club manager. It's like very, very solid
James Mic:All the small roles are cast brilliantly. And again, I was watching the thing, uh, classic Richard Lone Crane. Richard Lone Crane is the kind of director who, you know, nobody raves about Richard Lone Crane, and I'm not going to say, you know, re evaluate Richard Lone Crane, but however, he is a director who, If you want, if you want your film to look like a film and to feel like a, you know, you went to the cinema and you saw a proper film, Richard Long Crane's your guy. He does all the things you need. He gets a great cast. He's really good at, cinematic composition. He knows how to block scene, you know, all the things that you kind of want from something that feels like a movie. Richard Long Crane's your man.
Lily Mic:Yes, totally. I agree because this film is really considered. Oh, Just another like rubbish, silly rom com. People are very dismissive at this movie. When actually, I think, if you're going to dismiss the genre, dismiss it. But, in this genre, it is such a well made movie. Film because not just the way you you'll tell me shortly about how well the like actual like make of the film is But the script is just so so well done It's like it's way better than it needs to be because okay, the premise is bonkers Paul Bettany is a aging tennis pro who's done Wimbledon like 16 times and this is his final Wimbledon. It was a wild card. He shouldn't have really been there and he's going to retire after that. He meets Kirsten Dunst who plays an upcoming tennis pro who's, this is her first Wimbledon and she's tipped for great things and she's American and confident and ballsy and he's British and awkward and modest and, and they, come together. The sparks fly, they immediately are into each other and basically start seeing each other and Kirsten Dunst's energy inspires him so much that he goes on to win Wimbledon. And that in turn inspires everyone. That's the power of love. it's the power of when someone loves you, them seeing you and really seeing what you can do, your potential. Because, you know, he's, when he first arrives at Wimbledon, People don't know who he is. He tries to announce he's gonna retire and, the press kind of ignore it and talk over him, he can't get it out. And by the end he's fucking winning Wimbledon and everyone is behind him and finally, this was I think before Angie Murray had won Wimbledon, so it was like finally, a Brit is winning Wimbledon, all thanks to The love of Kirsten Dunst inspiring him so much and that's mad, but the actual relationship and how Them getting together feels to me totally plausible and very sexy and cute And so it makes you believe in the rest of it You know, and I think that's genius. You need a good script to do that. It could have been so silly
James Mic:It is a solid script. Again, Richard Long Crane, doesn't shoot a script that isn't ready to shoot. You know, he may not be a writer director, but I think he knows a good script and he knows how to work on a script to get it up and running. you know, another thing I thought of, so this is a bit tangential, not directly related, but it made me think, Have you seen a film called The Limey by Stephen Soderberg?
Lily Mic:no, I've not seen that no
James Mic:Because that stars, uh, Terrence Stamp in his later years as like an old gangster who's trying to seek revenge on his daughter, who seems to have been killed, but it's all very murky, mysterious. So he's going on like a revenge mission. And what they do in that, they give him flashbacks to when he was a younger man and they use footage from a 1960s kitchen stink drama that he acted in. So it's actually real footage from another unrelated film to flashback. Could we do that with Civil War? Could we use the flashbacks from Wimbledon? And it's like her career before, you know, I was like, you know, so I was, I was, they call it head canon, don't they? Where you try and connect different things in your head as like, as if they're part of the same universe, head canon.
Lily Mic:that. That, it was the same in, Everything, Everywhere, All at Once. How there were flashbacks to, Do you remember there were flashbacks to, um, Uh, Thank you, Michelle Yeoh on the red carpet and that was real footage from her on the red carpet as Michelle Yeoh and I found that very fun. But it's, yes, I'm glad you brought that up, the connection with Civil War, because Having just seen that movie, or you know, very recently, it was great to go back and see a young Kirsten Dunst in a completely different role. Kirsten Dunst is one of the greatest actors I've ever lived. Like, her oeuvre is so varied and incredible, and she's always good in all of it. Like, She is so beyond convincing is this very, and I love it because it's very similar to Tashi in Challengers. And I love that in both these films, they, it's like tennis is the perfect sport in which to explore women being very dominant and very in control. And similarly to Tashi, Kirsten Dunst's character, she is the one who initiates everything with Paul Lassney's character, you know, she was like, if you hit this one, I'll sleep with you. And then he of course misses because he's like, what? And she's like, oh, shame, could have used the workout. But like, you know that she's like, she's definitely going to sleep with him, but she's completely in control of the whole thing, initiates it. Their first date is so sexy with her being like, Oh, I don't want the fish and chips yet, which I obviously do not relate to at all. It's like if a guy brought me fish and chips, I'd be like, hell yeah, gimme!
James Mic:And I'll be like, wait, has this got shitloads of vinegar on though? Has the chips got shitloads of vinegar on?'cause otherwise take'em back and get me that vinegar
Lily Mic:Agreed. Totally agree. Totally agree. Okay, good. I'm glad we're agreed on that. Um, yeah, but she's so good. She's just so good in it. I, I love it. It's so, and very different part from her character
James Mic:completely.
Lily Mic:I have some elements I want to discuss with you. The main thing being, the very subtle, bisexuality of the movie. I,
James Mic:May maybe it just ever us a slightly slipped under the radar for me
Lily Mic:it's subtle as fuck and I love it because a film in 2004, you know bisexuality It's not a thing being shown on mainstream movies but in this movie One of the okay. So one of the best things about it is the fact that Paul Bettany has a friend training partner or a play partner or, I forget what he's called, he, early on, he says something about going for a date with an heiress. And then later on, Paul refers him and the fact that he loves men in leather shorts.
James Mic:Yeah. Right.
Lily Mic:So, you know, the implication is strongly there that this is a guy who likes everyone. and then also a bit later on, Paul Bertony runs into a friend of his, a female friend, and she introduces her female partner. Okay, so, I mean, so who knows if she's bi or not? But it's, it's a film that's like very subtly, showing the fact that, you know, there isn't just heterosexuality in this world. And I love that that is like there without it being like a big thing, because it's, you know, it's fucking normal, but you never ever see that. Also, the other thing I'd like to point out is that when there's this amazing montage of Paul Bersini getting ready for his day in a rush and he's trying on different underwears and eventually he settles on jeans going commando, I think that is the most bi thing I've ever seen, and I love that for him. So,
James Mic:Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I hadn't, I hadn't, I was more distracted by it felt like he's a Nick, Nicola Costa Waldo was, he'd had his voice dubbed or he did, I was more distracted by that anyway But that's just a nerdy nitpick. Well, I think it's him. I, I don't know. Here's my theory. It's definitely him dubbing his own voice, but I suspect there was an accent change because he's meant to be German, is that right? And it's not a very pronounced German accent, and I think he did a German accent on set and they, in ADR, edged it down because it just doesn't seem to match. Anyway, sorry, that's just a super nerdy thing. Whereas Paul Bettany's voice, it sounds like actually his voice recorded on set at that time. Anyway, that's how my little filmmaker brain goes on a little. We need some behind the scenes footage of Nicolás Costa Waldo delivering some lines and we need to compare and contrast. Can anybody get that to us?
Lily Mic:actually worked with him once on a shoot.
James Mic:Oh, wow. Hopefully he's a nice guy. He seems a nice
Lily Mic:I mean, he's a beautiful man, that's all I can say. he didn't say much, but he was quite quiet. But yeah, doesn't really have any accent actually at all. so yeah, he sounds just like how
James Mic:Yeah,
Lily Mic:So yeah, So maybe you're right. He was going a bit too hammy on the
James Mic:That's it because there was a line where he references being German. I was like, Oh, what So, so filmmakery things that I thought, yeah, this is Richard Long Cray and this is somebody like You can tell that when he gets given a budget of like 50 million ish, he likes it. He's going to put it on screen that he's, you know, he's not going to waste it. He wants to have fun with it. So, you know, you see a lot of dialogue scenes where you have somebody right in the foreground, addressing somebody in like a mid shot and all the way behind them, there's extras and in the deep background, there's extras that were going into their seats and Wimbledon. So that's throughout the film, you get this sense of scale and that's what, making it one of these kind of rom com dramas on a big budget. That's what it gets you. It gets you scale. I love the shot where you see Kirsten Dunst's character going to a hotel. The camera in one uninterrupted crane shot pulls up and then swoops back down to reveal Paul Bettinay's character sneaking out of the same hotel behind, behind a little, um, you know, thing that you put luggage on, um, to get your luggage into the hotel. And it was like that, that cinematic directing, that's someone who bloody loves doing this kind of stuff, you know?
Lily Mic:Yeah, that is a great moment. Also, beautiful lighting. That's that great, golden hour scene
James Mic:Oh,
Lily Mic:together
James Mic:this loads at Yeah, there's quite a few scenes that are done at Magic Hour. Again, that's something where, you know, you have to schedule for that. And also it means you can only shoot for like a half hour, hour total for that sequence. So those sequences may have been done over many, many evenings just to get all the shots, which takes time, costs money. That's where your 50 million goes.
Lily Mic:Yes, because very interestingly,
James Mic:As
Lily Mic:James,
James Mic:we both separately turns out, this is, I love this.
Lily Mic:yeah, James and I both without having any communication about this, both separately used an inflation calculator to work out the budget in today's money. the budget and box office for Wimbledon compared with Challenges, because very, very fascinatingly, the budget is about the same for both
James Mic:Yes.
Lily Mic:and Wimbledon.
James Mic:Absolutely. that was interesting to me because I was like, okay, we're just for inflation, but it does show you that you got more for your money in the two thousands. I mean, the production value in the sense of scale in Wimbledon is way bigger than in challenges, which even only, and it challenges is a different kind of story. It's not trying to be that spectacle, but the same amount of money roughly doesn't get you the same scale, or maybe Zendaya just took a bigger chunk of the check. I don't know.
Lily Mic:I don't know, because I reckon that at that point, Curse and Dance was huge at that time, so I reckon it would have been, I suspect they would have been paid around the same, honestly. Like, if anything, Curse and Dance more, you know, so,
James Mic:absolutely. But, but I think things like paying supporting artists, things like, all the boring stuff, like the cost of materials to build sets and things. It's just, they've increased massively. So it just means that if you have the same amount of money now, or then you just, it's just not going as far.
Lily Mic:totally. I mean, there isn't a big supporting cast in in Challengers. The people who are playing Zendaya's family are extras in the movie, you know, they don't ever, I think that her father has like a couple of lines, but you don't get to know him at all. and the, the only other like no, like present character Is the, is the umpire, and that apparently was played by Zendaya's personal assistant, so
James Mic:Really?
Lily Mic:got a good deal on that. Um, you're right, it's, even though it looks really good, it looks, I think it looks expensive, it's like beautifully shot, the actual sets are not that expensive, like, yeah, there wouldn't have been as much money put into it. There aren't that many, you're right, there aren't, there aren't extras, as many extras, and everything feels a lot more empty.
James Mic:yeah, exactly. It feels emptier. It feels a little bit more contained. I did, actually, I did go and see Challenges at the Superscreen at the Sydney World, which is, you know, it's a good premium screen. And, uh, I was saying to you before seeing this, I'm looking for, I was looking forward to seeing like a, just a regular drama on a big, nice quality screen, rather than it have to be an action film. And I, you know, I would like that to happen a bit more really, because, it's nice, even though it wasn't a great I didn't fully, embrace the film and think it was great. I enjoyed going to the cinema to see a drama on the big screen. Like the olden days, Lily, you know? Rather than being tucked into screen fucking 12, and it's about, it's about 10 foot wide, and, uh, the sound's tinny. It's nice to go to the cinema and enjoy a film on the big screen and look and sound nice.
Lily Mic:I have to say, I think you need to give it another go because I enjoyed it the first time. But
James Mic:I need to, go in the morning like I did Zone of
Lily Mic:definitely, because I saw it in the evening the first time and it was like a press screening. Very, busy, everyone was very animated, you know, that moment where the Spider verse is mentioned, everyone went crazy for that Easter
James Mic:Right, right.
Lily Mic:you can't help but think about the people around you, whereas the second time I watched it not a great screen but I was on my own and it was the afternoon and I re I, I actually enjoyed the whole thing. a lot more even though I had enjoyed it first time around but I was like I really didn't want to leave I was it was such a shame that I had to miss that final hour because I was like really everything fell into place a lot more about what the film was kind of trying to say and do but I always find I always love a film more the second time I've seen it I think it's yeah I think you always get so much more even though you lose the element of surprise obviously yeah, so I think give it another go James, go in the
James Mic:Okay. Go in the morning. Absolutely. Okay. I don't know why I keep going to these evenings because I always have a much better time. My brain's much more engaged. In the morning.
Lily Mic:But I'm very happy to hear that you, it sounds like you did enjoy Wimbledon when, last week when I was trailing it, you seemed very skeptical about whether this movie was gonna be up to, up to much.
James Mic:Well, you know, Richard long crane. He, what can I say? He put it in the back of the net. I don't know. Got it over the
Lily Mic:Over the, within the, What?
James Mic:The net.
Lily Mic:Within the net, or over the What are you Yeah,
James Mic:He
Lily Mic:as well. But not, the back of the net is football.
James Mic:football, yeah. He Look, he
Lily Mic:It's in, in the
James Mic:I can't
Lily Mic:but you don't want it to be across the line, right? Because then it'll be out, I think.
James Mic:He scored a point.
Lily Mic:got the match point, maybe. I don't know
James Mic:Thank you. Yeah. Di Yeah.
Lily Mic:tennis fans. You
James Mic:What I'm going to say, he elevated something that I thought was, you know, it, it did, you know, Wimbledon definitely conformed to what I thought it was going to be. I didn't quite realize it was a working title film, but also I was completely unsurprised. Cause it's a very, but you know, I just thought it was elevated by a solid script, great supporting ensemble cast, and just really nice direction, like thoughtful, engaging, you know, there's a lot of stuff going on.
Lily Mic:And ultimately they've discovered that love doesn't mean nothing in tennis.
James Mic:Now you said that, it's like, oh fucking hell, that's definitely, that's definitely what the writers were like. You know, they had that on the wall. They had that on the
Lily Mic:Yeah, that and the fucking comet. The comet is a huge clanger. Do you remember the comet? There's like, There's this like tiny little thing about the fact that this rare comet has appeared and it will only last for two weeks. Just like their relationship, it's so stupid. They like
James Mic:Fuck. Oh
Lily Mic:like, Lose the comet, guys. Lose the comet. But, that aside, that script is perfection. Like, we even get to talk about it, but James McAvoy playing the brother, who's so good, the whole
James Mic:good.
Lily Mic:family unit is amazing. I love them coming together at the end and watching the batch.
James Mic:They got James McAvoy at the exact right time. Which was his, he was, he'd cleared, before he was really big, so he would do these supporting roles. And he's so good at it, because what you've got is a leading man, just he's focusing on being a supporting character actor. I mean, he's also very much like the archetype of like, um, let me think, is it called Spike in Notting Hill? The kind of wacky sidekick who's a bit of color. So when he pops on screen, it's all about the color. He's doing the crazy things that the straighter main star doesn't do.
Lily Mic:He even does the same thing as Spike does. Both of them sell pictures of the,
James Mic:Oh, right.
Lily Mic:of, uh, of the couple, which then leads like the next element of the relationship. I hadn't even seen so many parallels yet. It is a very,
James Mic:It's very much work in title. They had, they got, they got like a hit formula and this was just, this was another of that hit formula, you know?
Lily Mic:Yeah. So good. So good. All right. Well, shall we take a trip to the film pharmacy?
James Mic:Absolutely. Yes.
Lily Mic:Okay Dear Lily and James. I have a non cinema movie question
James Mic:What? How did this get through the screening process?
Lily Mic:Can you watch great comedy films on your own or do you laugh more with company? I live alone and definitely don't watch many, brackets if any, comedy films compared to watching them with others. Is this something to work on?
James Mic:Very interesting question, because it's a question I've been asking myself the past couple of years, is that I rarely watch comedy films. And I like to think I'm a good laugh, like I like having a laugh. you know, in general, I'd like to But like, but when I watch films, I don't watch any comedy films. It's like, what the fuck's wrong with me? Have a
Lily Mic:Same. Yeah, I know, I don't either. I don't enjoy comedy as a whole. I have this whole thing of like, I don't like to feel like you're trying to make me laugh. Like if you're trying, I'm put
James Mic:You are a tough, tough crowd for a comedy audience,
Lily Mic:I know, it's ridiculous. All I want, like, what I want is some, is people to say funny things just off the cuff and it not to feel premeditated. It's stupid though. Cause then when I do, like, you know, Anchorman is one of my favorite films. It's so good.
James Mic:never seen it
Lily Mic:Oh, but I, but
James Mic:because I'm like, cause, because
Lily Mic:to be like, okay, I'm going to do this now.
James Mic:because it's a part of me is like, somehow I, I don't want to watch something ridiculous'cause I'm a serious, it is like there's all this bullshit. It's like, what is wrong with me? Because like surely it'll, it just be good for my mental health. Just to watch some films that make you laugh. That, that sounds like a good thing.
Lily Mic:But the thing is a film like a, for example, a Jada Patel movie, Do you think that movie will make you laugh though? I don't believe that you're, you're always like, Oh no, I need to watch something highbrow because you were, you know, you were just saying you went to see the Phantom Menace cause it was May the fourth day or whatever.
James Mic:Yeah, you're right. You know, listening to what you said about your reasons for not comedy, maybe it's something along those lines. I dunno that
Lily Mic:So do you, but what do you think? Do you think, so the question is kind of about
James Mic:yeah.
Lily Mic:being with company or not. Can you watch great comedy films on your own or do you love more with company?
James Mic:Yeah, I well,
Lily Mic:Like, I
James Mic:think you can,
Lily Mic:them with people.
James Mic:I think comedy probably works best with, with more than one person just because you can enjoy laughing together. Like, there's that moment when, especially with a small group of friends when it's in a house, that if you both, if you're all into a comedy film, there is that shared experience of like, you're kind of howling with laughter, and you're both finding the same thing funny, and then you amplify that in a cinema where it's a bunch of strangers, and you're laughing along with a bunch of, You know, that's, that's a real buzz. I remember the opposite of that though, Lily. Like I think maybe this is a foundational thing which put me off watching comedy films was going to see in cinemas on release in maybe it was 98, there's something about Mary and I remember being in a packed cinema and everybody was laughing and I was sat there with my arms folded, absolutely not laughing at all. Just thinking, why can't I find this funny? What, what is wrong with me? Yeah.
Lily Mic:I know. I, actually, yeah, that might be it for me as well. There's nothing worse than thinking, why am I, Why am I so serious? Why am I not getting it?
James Mic:What's wrong with my
Lily Mic:bone? Because I also don't like that movie.
James Mic:Yeah.
Lily Mic:just stupid. And it's just misogynistic.
James Mic:It's just crap. I just didn't find it funny at all. And like, there's nothing weirder than being at a comedy that in the cinema, everybody is laughing at. And it's just like,
Lily Mic:Yeah.
James Mic:I remember I laughed at the end credits thing. They had like a, a bit of a cast sing along to a funny song at the end. I can't remember what the song is. And I remember that elicited a little chuckle and I thought it took to the end credits for me to actually laugh.
Lily Mic:You know what's funny is recently I've gone to a few press screenings and then gone again to see the same movie with a paying audience and what's interesting is at the press screenings The audience is really up for laughing. They're really prepared to laugh. Like, there were so many big laughs in June. There were lots of laughs in Challenges. I mean, Challenges is very funny. We didn't, I don't think, really mention that, but it's a very very funny camp over the top kind of film, which I really enjoyed. and then with both films, when I went to see them as a paying punter, people weren't really laughing. It's like, you have to know that the film is meant, is trying to be funny, I think. And I feel like for some reason that, I don't know why, the critics sense that and go with it. Whereas in both these films, in Challenges it was quiet and that, and that's, and it felt to me like this really is a fun, I mean, it was also because it was quite an empty screen actually, so I'll, I'll be interested to see if they are able to make that their money, because it feels like it's, It might be after the initial hype hasn't really done amazingly. Like I checked and it's doing a lot worse than Civil War, right, but at the
James Mic:know. I mean, I think what you've touched on though is something that I've been thinking for years and years, which I think, I think just in general, British audiences at cinemas are just a bit reserved, you know, we don't get extreme reactions, and I, my parents told me, like, when they used to go see the James Bond films, that at the end of the big stunt, because there's always a big stunt in a James Bond film, that the audience would applaud. They would give a round of applause to the cinema screen. You know, you and I, I think, have seen 2001 where it gets an applause, you know, every now and again. But, but like, but in general, you know, that doesn't happen, really. You know, that's incredibly rare. So, I just think, There's a, like I went to see the, um, the last, the last James Bond film. Not a great film, but you know, it had action. It had spectacle. It had all the crowd pleasing elements, but there was just like, it was, there was nothing from the audience. There was no sense of excitement, nothing. And I just, I miss that. When you go to America, you get the opposite of that. It sounds like essentially what the press screening is, which you get an involved audience who are here to make some noise and to, to experience the film. And I love that,
Lily Mic:it's so nice when everyone's laughing. It then makes you want to laugh more if you're in, if you're feeling it too.
James Mic:One of my most memorable cinema experiences was in the early 90s going to see Pulp Fiction on a Friday night with a packed audience who all wanted to see Tarantino's follow up to Reservoir Dogs and everybody was into it and we all laughed as one at all the jokes and they all landed and we were enjoying every moment as, that's a communal experience.
Lily Mic:you know what the Prince Charles is amazing for that that cinema whenever you go everyone if it's, if it's a comedy or, you know, people are really, really involved. And so I think it's, yeah, you're right. It's just probably that the general culture is to not be too vocal, but then there are certain spaces where there are different rules of engagement, you know. and, and maybe that is the case with press screens, you know, that it's known that we're going to be enthusiastic because we love film and we're supporting film. Whereas, yeah, we're all a bit more shy when you're just at your, you know, local every man or whatever.
James Mic:What, what conclusion of a good drone, uh, get out and see more comedies. Maybe. See,
Lily Mic:But they were wondering if it's about working on watching comedies alone at home.
James Mic:I think, I think, I there we go. Then. Yeah. I need to work on my own, my own comedy watching first before I give advice on this. But you've certainly given me cause to reflect.
Lily Mic:Yeah, it has for me as well. But the thing is, when I'm on my own and I laugh at something, it does feel a bit strange to be
James Mic:Yeah.
Lily Mic:something and then be like, you know?
James Mic:Yeah, because it's almost like, it's almost like laughter is a social signal, isn't it? That you laugh to signal to the person who said something funny that you find it funny. Whereas you, you're bypassing that by watching it by yourself, aren't you? Who are you signaling to? Yourself?
Lily Mic:so what you're saying is it's like the tree in the forest. If you laugh and no one hears it, you're not really laughing.
James Mic:I don't know.
Lily Mic:funny.
James Mic:Maybe, maybe. Wow. This is a
Lily Mic:Look, yeah, we're not sure what the answer is. I don't know. I feel like if you want, if you have the desire strikes you to watch a comedy on your own, go for it. But I don't think you need to work on it otherwise. I think just keep it as communal viewing. Yes,
James Mic:for good solo comedy films? Cause I'd be well up for watching a few.
Lily Mic:that's a good idea. yeah. Any recommendations, please send our way.
James Mic:Help us out. Thank you.
Lily Mic:All right. Well, thank you everyone for listening to another episode of groovy movies
James Mic:Absolutely. Thank you very much. And if you could leave us a like or a five star review on wherever you listen to our podcast, it all helps get our podcast out to a bigger audience.
Lily Mic:So we will see you in two weeks time. Bye
James Mic:Bye.