Groovy Movies
Weekly deep dives into your favourite films with Lily Austin and James Brailsford.
Groovy Movies
Superior Sequels: What makes part 2 better than part 1? (Inside Out 2, The Terminator 2, The Godfather 2)
From Dune 2 to Deadpool and Wolverine, there have been a surprising number of hit sequels this year. So this week we’re asking the question, what makes that cinematic blue moon of a part 2 that is better than part 1?
References
The Strasberg school’s definition of method acting
On Location with The Godfather: A Discussion with Gordon Willis (director of photography), theasc.com
An oral history of The Terminator 2
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Edited and produced by Lily Austin and James Brailsford
Original music by James Brailsford
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Lily:Welcome to Groovy Movies. My name is Lily Austin. Hey James, how are you doing?
James Part 1:am not doing too badly, although it has been a busy, busy, uh, couple of weeks. Even a busy weekend just gone now from where we're recording for film news. I think there's a lot a lot been
Lily:Yeah. Okay. Let's not even waste any time.
James Part 1:we haven't got time for any chitchat. Come on, come on. You know, you know how this podcast goes.
Lily:So go on then. What is, what is the thing that you're most concerned to talk about?
James Part 1:Oh, I think the most concerning for me personally, six cineworld sites have been announced that they're gonna close down in the uk, that's dozens and dozens of screens that are gonna go and never come back, unfortunately. So that, that's the concerning news.
Lily:I'm actually a bit confused because I thought Cineworld closed during COVID.
James Part 1:what happened is that during COVID, uh, Cineworld kept going as much as they could stay open. I actually went to see a tenant at Cineworld two times during COVID. But, what happened during COVID is that it really affected the amount of debt that they had. They were already in a precarious financial position and the last thing they needed was a huge reduction in footfall. And that's exactly what happened. So it just really affected them. Added to an already unmanageable debt pile. So I think what's happened there is the COVID was the start of the end. and it's been in and out of bankruptcy. I don't follow the ins and outs of how you go bankrupt, but right now it's kind of filing for bankruptcy. It's in the process of being bankrupt. It's basically in the most precarious, financial state any company could be on.
Lily:Okay. So not ideal for the film world.
James Part 1:No, no, not at all. nobody swooped in to buy them up. no other chain's interested in taking that on. So yes, that's, that's a bit of a worry. I think it's indicative of where I think the industry is going. for example, on the flip side of that, Deadpool and Wolverine, the third sequel to the Deadpool franchise of the Marvel cinematic universe is having this Above and beyond any expectations opening weekend. It's like a record breaker on many, many levels and 38 million of its, box office income was from IMAX screens. when you think how few IMAX screens they are, that's a massive proportion. So what we are already seeing is fewer screens of a higher quality.
Lily:Okay, what do you think about that? Battle good?
James Part 1:For me personally, good. But for the industry overall, not great. It means that films, I don't think, are quite as a mass entertainment form anymore. I think we'll have fewer films, hopefully better made that do well. But I don't think this idea of a summer of tent poles that's gone. So I think fewer but better presented, but it just means that means there'll be less films made, less jobs going. So a contraction, but maybe an improvement.
Lily:Cinema might become like opera.
James Part 1:Yeah, yeah.
Lily:I say that because I went to my first opera last weekend. Fantastic. Fantastic. It was so good. I literally felt like Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman. Do you remember when she watches the opera, and she starts crying at
James Part 1:I've not seen Pretty Woman.
Lily:you've not seen Pretty Woman?
James Part 1:No.
Lily:my god, we have so much to discuss on this podcast. It's great, we never run out of topics. Well, it's very apt that this news about Deadpool and Wolverine is so important. It's about, Because also similarly, Inside Out 2 came out a few weeks ago. I it has also done incredibly well. it's now the highest grossing animated movie ever because so far it's made 1. 465 billion. It's a really hard number for me to say. Okay.
James Part 1:think we can safely round it up to one and a half billion
Lily:You can't round that up though, because that's still, that is still 35 million that you're kind of adding, So it's done incredibly well and It made us think we I think we've discussed this idea We've thrown this idea around before as a topic but sequels for the better than the original Movie. So it's quite apt that this seems to be a summer of of smash sequels because it's kind of unusual. The norm is that a sequel isn't as good as the first film, which I was thinking why is that? You might on some level think that the sequel would be better because the director knows what they're doing. they've figured out the formula and now they're just expanding. Why James, do you think usually it's never as good
James Part 1:Because I think, and I've spent decades thinking about this, I've spent decades going to the cinema and being disappointed by sequels. I'm looking at you, Men in Black 2, um, and wondering, wondering why is this? And essentially, I think a lot of it boils down to A lot of the films are only good for one story. Those characters, that scenario, they've got one story in them and that story was told in part one. And in part two, there's a lot of things where you might have to reset characters who went on an arc to make it work, whatever goal they succeeded in achieving in the first one has to be unpicked for them to achieve it again in the second one. I haven't seen the Bridget Jones sequels, but I'm going to suspect something along those lines happens.
Lily:Yes. Well, I feel like often it's a case of a, we take these characters and put them in a different place. You know, they go on holiday or they get transplanted and the same thing happens again, but it's just a different location that, I think falls quite flat. That doesn't give you enough of a new story or there's just an additional new element. So if Bridget Jones, she has a baby and, I mean, actually people love that third movie. I didn't particularly like it, and the second one, she just goes to a few different locations, but basically just resets and goes through the same tricky love triangle again. It's nothing very original.
James Part 1:because here's the problem that sequels face is if you change it too much, does it stop feeling like a sequel to the first film? I think, um, Disney are discovering that with the Star Wars franchise they bought, you've got to have lightsabers, tie fighters, probably a villain in black. There's a lot of things that you've got to have, otherwise it stops feeling like Star Wars. And so on one hand, your hand is tied to a degree. So I think the opportunity to fit a good sequel in that doesn't just have to reset the first film, and doesn't just completely change the premise. it's, you know, I think we're talking about a very slim selection of films that make the grade there.
Lily:And that is why I think Inside Out 2 is so, so successful because for anyone who has not seen Inside Out and Inside Out 2 is an animated movie in which we follow the emotions of a little girl called Riley. in the first film, it's a bit more simplistic. She's 11 years old. There are five key emotions that are driving her personality. And What's perfect about the second one is there's an, there's an obvious natural sequel to come, so the sequel is her hitting puberty for the first time. And so you've got this, natural extension of the world that we've already explored, because, puberty hits and with that comes these new emotions such as anxiety, such as ennui, such as embarrassment. That's so perfect because we all remember that how, you hit the certain age and become so awkward and have all these new anxieties that you'd never, were never even aware of before. So there's this, it just, the the world is naturally extended from it, but more complex, I think, and more, I think even more relatable really. I mean, I literally was in tears within the first five minutes. It got me to the core from, yeah, Of the sequel. Yeah, I just, I was, it reminded, it took me back so so effectively to my own kind of preteen years this core idea. Sense of self. It really beautifully builds on the first film's idea of these memories, these core memories that make up Riley's personality. I think it's very rare to have a storyline that naturally can extend in this way. And so it already, I think, was predisposed. It had a good grounding. Of course, they had to make, the film successfully and, and, you know, build on it successfully. But I think that really helps having that, already inbuilt into the story.
James Part 1:I've not seen Inside Out until I watched it for this episode. Um, so I watched Inside Out one and then, yesterday went to see Inside Out two. So I've had a lot of Inside Out in the last 48 hours. I remember when I first heard about the premise back when the first one came out, I remember thinking, Oh, that's just like a comic strip I grew up with in the Beano called the numbskulls. So concept was funnily familiar from my childhood, with, with a few differences, but, um, Yeah, I, I liked Inside Out. I just was felt my time watching it thinking it's not quite a toy story, but it's not bad. It's not, it's not quite up there and I don't gonna be many. Yeah, it's for me. I, and look, here's the thing. It seems to be that nobody likes it when films are just good. I had a good time. Inside Out was good, but I don't think it's the, I think it's a B to the Toy Story's A. I don't think the premise is quite as neat as Toy Story, Toy Story is just such a perfect premise, it's dead simple, your toys are alive and they act dead when you're not around. Done. Here we've got, um, I was just like, so Riley, does she have free will? Is it determinism? the, the emotions in her head, do they have people in their heads? Cause they don't always act joyful. They sometimes get sad and upset and they act differently. Then I just, my brain was just slightly going around, but I could lock into the groove. I got it. Don't get me wrong. I'm picking it apart too much. But all I'm saying is, Those questions were hanging over my head. And then in the sequel, I was like, so is anxiety an emotion or is it a state of being? I mean, is it a mood? Sorry. That's what I was thinking is like on we, is that an emotion or is it a mood? So it works and I went along
Lily:What, so what is a mood? What, what distinguishes a mood from emotion?
James Part 1:Uh, yeah, I, I don't know. I don't have an answer, sorry. I don't have answers to these questions. All I'm saying is I was asking myself them.
Lily:Okay I, I think for me, because it was a, it's a children's animated movie, so I didn't get too bogged down in the, complexities, I see what you're saying with, with Toy Story, there is this sort of Perfect premise. It's very neat. And it's very much, hits the kind of childhood imagination because of course, I feel like we've all had that thought when we were kids, right? Like what if our toys because we bring them to life ourselves when we play with them What if they do that on their own? So it all ties in very well but I don't know for me like if you with both these movies they spoke to psychologists and child experts to build this world. So I feel like you have that, like, it's, okay, it is, of course, maybe doesn't have, perfect logic. But if you're just thinking about you feel as a child, how it feels to have these emotions that you don't always feel like you're totally in control of, I mean, even as a grown up too, you know, I think it, it is incredibly effective in exploring this, one of my Friends at work told me that when he came out of the cinema, he heard a little boy say to his mom, Mommy, are those emotions inside of me? And like, just the fact that it's a way of showing children, like conveying to children how they, feel because there's so much of like when we were kids, I think of like being shamed about your emotions, you know, it's not good to be upset. Don't don't get angry. You know, there is. I thought I think the film is beautiful. And and I think for that much more like I think I think superior to Toy Story. But I see what you're saying in terms of like this. I think is emotionally. It just really hit me both films, but
James Part 1:I get it. I get it. Don't get me wrong, but it just, there was something that just, I couldn't quite fully commit to it. But,
Lily:okay, but bringing it back to the sequel versus original, do you agree that the sequel is better than the original,
James Part 1:I didn't think it was better. I thought it was just as good as I, I think they managed to not drop the ball. And I would say for a sequel, that's a resounding success. I think if you liked the first one, you will not be disappointed with the second one, I loved the anxiety character. I mean, God, I wish I'd seen that film when I was a kid. Cause then it would have explained a lot of the, the thought processes that I had as a child and would have given me some understanding. And maybe as a kid, I would have been able to look into that and have an idea, which I didn't as a kid. But I also found the addition of these extra characters meant that you now had Double the amount of characters from the first film sharing the same amount of screen time. So it meant that they were very well portrayed. Don't get me wrong. All the voice cast was great. they were all very memorable, but Before it was joy and sadness having this kind of adventure inside at one. And now it's more focused around joy still, but you do have a lot of other characters vying for your attention. So I don't know. If you could quite get into the new characters as much as you did in Inside Out 1.
Lily:I feel like in the second one, and it sort of similes the first, actually there were just these two dominant characters, right? Joy and Anxiety vying for control, essentially, of Riley. Um, and the others were more kind of, you know, side characters, supporting, supporting, supporting cast. So I didn't mind that too much, but I know I, I feel that Ennui was just really for a laugh. Like it doesn't really, yeah. work as a, I don't know if it really works as an emotion. Yeah.
James Part 1:Funny though, funny.
Lily:Yeah. I I think for me, just what made me feel like it was, better than the first one was just the fact that for me personally this really was, this idea of the sense of self and how you think of yourself and how it's defined by these experiences you've had and how people treat you and you've treated other people and that can, and that can change a bit as as you hit puberty and this idea of, this core identity that you have and how that can be shaken by, moments where you feel like you've failed or behaved in a way that you then regret or the opposite. All of that was that struck such a chord with me that I couldn't help but, but I just absolutely loved it and found it even more enjoyable than the first one. But I think you're right. I think them just being two films as being equally good an original film and a sequel is essentially the sequel being better because it's so unusual.
James Part 1:Absolutely, you know, they didn't fuck it up and that's more than the vast majority of sequels. I think what worked in the sequel, what I think was something that pushed the format was, there was much more of an emphasis on Riley's development, friendship group, changing, wanting to succeed as this ice hockey player. That was fresh and new. I felt like the story of the emotions, it was really fun, but it wasn't. The exact same stories inside out one, we just substituted anxiety. you know, we substituted sadness with anxiety. They get jettisoned from the headquarters. They have to go on a mission to get back and save the day. That's beat for beat the same, but the Riley story was a new addition that did at least give it some freshness.
Lily:Well, that, I think, brings us on very naturally to Terminator 2 Judgment Day, because is that not the exact same situation between Terminator 1 and Terminator 2?
James Part 1:Oh, I mean, for me, absolutely. Let's just segue into Terminator, the Terminator chat just a little bit as well by saying that these are one. I think as well, crucial difference between Inside Out and the other two sequels we're talking about is Terminator 2 and The Godfather 2. They reunited all the core creative team and the cast. They got them all back. Everybody. Inside Out 2 has a different director. They lost Bill Hader as the voice of fear and I, I immediately spotted that in the cinema And I was like gutted. Was she? Oh yeah, she was,
Lily:Basically, both of them asked for more money for the sequel, And unlike with a live action movie, it's, it's, very, very obvious if, if a, significant cast member leaves and it's pretty normal to ask for more money when a film has done well and, and this new one is projected too well, but actually they were like, buy guys, no problem, and, and cast, Yeah, well I didn't, I have to say, I was aware that they'd been recast, but I didn't, I didn't actually notice in the small because I haven't watched Inside Out 1 in you know,
James Part 1:Ah, yeah, because I watch them back to back. By the way, I saw it yesterday and the cinema was packed. There wasn't a seat left in the theatre. And that's, I think it's a month and a half after release. And that's
Lily:Yeah, I think it's, I think it's only gaining
James Part 1:It's awesome.
Lily:Yeah. The more,
James Part 1:Oh, sorry, we're talking about Inside Out 2 again. Sorry. So yeah, is Terminator 2 a retread of Terminator 1? Absolutely. Do I enjoy Terminator 1? Not really. do I love Terminator 2? It's one of my favorite action films of all time. Yeah. Yeah.
Lily:Okay, well. Okay. Terminator 2 Judgment Day came out in 1991, directed by James Cameron. And as you said, same cast, same crew, pretty much. James Cameron made both of these. I didn't realise that this was the film that actually made James Cameron's name. He was a young director, he'd made a few small movies up until that point, and then this was the thing that catapulted him into Sort of director
James Part 1:Well, he, he'd had a misfire with The Abyss, which was a big budget film, and it kind of flopped, so Terminator 2 turned it round for him, so he'd had, he'd been given a big budget film for The Abyss, but it just flopped, so, he was kind of hanging by a thread in director jail.
Lily:I see, I see. Well I'm glad he was given this, the second chance. I'm sure if he was a woman he wouldn't have been, but glad that he was because I mean I have to say, I love, I love both movies but I want to hear about this. So why, why didn't you enjoy Terminator 1 and why is Terminator 2 such a different story?
James Part 1:I mean, I'm going to sound really basic here, and I'm so sorry, but I just find Terminator 1, it's, it's cheaper, doesn't look as good. I find it a bit slow and plodding, and Terminator 2 just has none of that. You can tell that James Cameron looked at what he didn't particularly like or what he could improve in Terminator 1, and he just was like, right, here's how we improve it. Terminator two. And I also think not only was it improvement in the storytelling and the production value, but it was a completely innovative with VFX. So it was a sequel that you're quite right. It's essentially the same story. Fortunately, the premise of the story. Allows you to do that in the sequel. You know, they're not resetting characters. They're able to do it because of the premise of the film, this time travel from the future to kill people in the past. Keep sending people back. but also it was truly innovative in its visual effects. And I saw it at the cinema in 1991. And, you know, we were talking last week about that kind of excitement that you get when you're young at the movies. I think Terminator 2 might've been the last time I was genuinely thrilled by the magic of the movie, isn't it, because of all the VFX in Terminator 2. Which I think is one of it's reasons it's such a well regarded film.
Lily:So I have to say I think that Terminator 2, I think at the time, I have a theory that at the time it felt so superior to Terminator 1, but now with a lot of distance I mean, it does look great. I mean, we watching it last night. with My family, and my boyfriend and he was like, Oh, my gosh, I can't believe this came out eight years before the matrix. It looks so, so good. and obviously, because, yeah, I think actually, perhaps a tip for doing a sequel is like, take your time with it, because I think it was fun. five years between inside out and inside out 2, And with Terminator, Terminator 2, and 1, it's seven years. So yeah, a lot of time for SFX to get a lot better, but to be honest, to my mind, when I, When I watched the sequel the first time around, I did think it was a lot better than the original. But now, when I re watched the sequel, I felt like, actually, I don't know if it's so much better than the first one. In fact, I'm not sure if it is better than the first one. now at this point, because I find the first one a lot more scary. I think Arnold Schwarzenegger is really, really scary. And in the sequel, obviously, he is now, The Goody Terminator, sorry guys, spoiler, and we've got this new Terminator, this new and improved Terminator, who is the new Badie, the T 1000, played by Robert Patrick, and I don't find him actually as, scary for some reason. I find Arnold Schwarzenegger so scary as the Terminator in the first one. And in this, there is something a bit lighter and more jovial. a, there's a bit of more of a groove to the whole film. And it's fun, but it's less, less of a thriller horror to me than the first one.
James Part 1:I completely agree with you, but that's why I like Terminator 2 more. It's because I think I can enjoy it more. Like, if we're just going on enjoyment status, the heaviness, essentially, and the increased gore. Because I suspect Terminator was a an R rated film, as they call it in America, an 18.
Lily:Yeah.
James Part 1:2 Definitely a PG 13. they had to have a lower rating so they could have a mass audience. So they needed to water it down. But for me, that just makes it more of a, more of a comfort watch. Whereas Terminator 1, you can't comfort watch Terminator 1.
Lily:that's true. That's true. They're actually, maybe that's what it's about, yeah, Terminator 2 is essentially a remake of Terminator 1. but made for, yeah, mass audience. And it follows John Connor, who is a teenage boy. And he's very like sparky and funny and brings a slight lightness to the whole thing. it does feel like it's in the same league as like Jurassic Park, you know, family entertainment, like the fact that I was sat here watching it with my whole family and we were all so excited to watch it last night, you know, Terminator one has a different vibe. It takes itself a lot more seriously. It's a lot darker, more violent. I think the thing that makes Terminator two, and this, I feel, is the same for the Godfather. so we'll we'll move on to that shortly, is that, I think, It's only superior because you already have seen Terminator, or not that you've already seen it but it builds on the story of Terminator 1. There is something very, very satisfying, even though I don't find it as perhaps scary and exciting, there's something very satisfying about Arnold Schwarzenegger, this incredible character, the Terminator, coming back and being in this different role and him now battling against a new and improved Terminator and also seeing the character arc of Sarah Connor and her now having a son, all of that is incredibly satisfying to watch you only really enjoy this sequel and enjoy it more than the first because you already know about the first and you get that satisfaction of seeing this progression.
James Part 1:although I, I have to say, I saw Terminator 2 at the cinema, having not seen the first Terminator and I, you know, because, you know, the rough story anyway, just because it's always in the reviews and the press. So when I then watched Terminator 1, I was like, oh yeah, I kind of already knew all the bits because it's all referenced in Terminator 2, but I think you hit on a, very good point earlier about what perhaps the thread is between all these films we're discussing being good sequels. And I think it's the time, isn't it? Because Men in Black 2, that was rushed out like a year, two years later. They probably were developing Men in Black 1 over maybe a decade. The script gets knocked around. I know that happened with The Matrix. The Matrix was 10 years, the script getting in development, getting knocked back and rewritten, and it was a success. Right. We want a sequel in. Three years time, thanks, or four years time. So, suddenly you go from having all this time and basically no pressure, to now you've got the expectation of delivering a sequel that does as well as the first one with less time. So, big tip for sequels, don't rush them.
Lily:Yes, absolutely. Though actually, Godfather 2 came out only two years after the first Godfather, but the writer Mario Puzo, was already working on the script for the second one during the making of the first. So, A bit of time, but actually Al Pacino apparently did not like the the script for the sequel and initially that he was holding production, halting production because he said no and, Francis Ford Coppola worked through the night to rewrite it to improve it and then they got the green light, which I find incredible because it's such a well put together story. So I wonder what things in particular, it'll probably just be certain key things about his character perhaps that he wasn't so keen on.
James Part 1:That's so interesting that you, I didn't realize that about the script and not appealing to Al Pacino because that might provide, possibly, this is me hypothesizing here, I was watching it, I haven't seen it for about 10 years, Godfather 2, so I was watching it. I was going, Oh my God, that's Lee Strasberg playing Herman Roth, who's like the pivotal character in The Godfather 2. He is one of the founding fathers of the Method School of Acting. And he set up the actor's studio and of course, who was one of his most famous students, he was Al
Lily:No way. That is
James Part 1:and I think either Al Pacino may have suggested Lee Strasberg and Francis Ford Coppola was going, great idea, Al, because surely he's trying to get him on board. So it's basically his old teacher and him sharing scenes together, which is what I think really charges those scenes, which with a different actor might've been a little bit flat, but you know, there's, there's a certain gravitas that Lee Strasberg brings.
Lily:As a badie of a certain age He's very effective'cause he's so scary and yet, you know He's clearly on the edge of a heart attack at any moment. And yet he still fills the frame with, utter Fear, it's chilling. okay. So what do you, what do you think about Godfather, Godfather 2? Do you, agree? Because in film lore, Godfather 2 is considered the greatest sequel ever made. This is often
James Part 1:Yeah.
Lily:about. Do you agree?
James Part 1:I think when I was younger and first few times I watched Godfather 2, I completely agreed. And I don't know how much that was because I just everywhere you read Godfather 2 is the best sequel of all time. So when you read that, it's hard not to have that in the back of your head. And I think that coupled with the fact that it's clearly much bigger on it in its scale and its ambition and its scope, but I think over the past 15, 20 years, I. Prefer the first Godfather, but that's not saying that Godfather two is bad. It's just, I prefer the story of Michael's descent from like the all American war hero into this crime boss. that story appeals a little bit more than he's already corrupt. Let's see how low and debased he can go. and I like the interlude with Michael Corleone in the first one where he goes to Italy. there's elements about it that I like more, basically. But is it one of the best sequels of all time? Absolutely. What about you, Lily? Where do you stand?
Lily:Yeah, I'm not sure. I go back and forth because also, um, as much as I dislike Marlon Brando as a human being after all the things I've had, there is nothing more satisfying than seeing him with his bulldog cotton wool stuffed cheeks yabbering away. so it's hard to prefer a movie that doesn't have that. You know, it's a great loss that he, he wasn't in the second one. I do love, a dual storyline a narrative. I guess That's probably some actual approach like,
James Part 1:story,
Lily:yeah, but like I like the, the fact that we follow a young Vito Corleone we get the origin story of him becoming the godfather simultaneously with watching kind of the rise of his family, the call the only family is a powerful mafia family. And then simultaneously we get Michael's descent and kind of failure as the new godfather, I find that incredibly satisfying to watch. I do love that we have these like. Okay, we go, we do go to Italy in the first one, but I don't know the kind of the moving between different locations, the moving between time periods, the fact that we get a brief courtroom drama in the middle of the film. I love a courtroom drama. It's almost like just being given an extra slice of your favorite cake. It's like, okay, I feel a bit sick by the end and I have to say, my boyfriend and I watched this movie over this last week. I think we did it in seven sittings because it's three hours and 20 minutes long. It's horrifically long.
James Part 1:The other thing I loved about, maybe it makes this a superior sequel and one that I don't think, modern sequels are taking a lesson from is that we have an origin story of a character, But the important thing is it's a rich and interesting character who clearly has a depth and a story worth exploring, and he was played by Marlon Brando. So it was a great character by a great actor. So We saw Vito as a family man trying to make ends meet to make a better life for him and his wife, who, you know, they live in a small house together. And then you compare that with the absolute ice coldness, the lack of any empathy that Michael has, the distance he has from his wife, the way he treats everyone around him, it couldn't be any more different. So that's a useful tool. Of using an origin story. We didn't just go back in time and tell Vito's story. It had a point.
Lily:Yeah. It has a point. It, it speaks to. kind of bigger ideas. Yeah. It's The kind of immigration, one's relationship to the family, because yeah, it kind of starts like, oh, it's all about family. but then by the end, yeah, he's turned against from his wife. He's so cold to her. He, I don't want to spoil things, but treats family members very poorly. And I, questionable.
James Part 1:very much an understatement, but absolutely true. true.
Lily:And just, the rise and fall, you know, compared to how we, when we first meet Michael in the first film. and to where he is by the end that arc over two movies is really, really satisfying. So again, I think that for me anyway, watching the second one after the first, I found it more enjoyable, because I've watched the first and I know, and, and that's the thing that yeah, speaking about an origin story, I think Marlon Brando, as I said, brilliant to watch as the Godfather And there's always something so pleasing about when you have a sequel where We follow a younger version or sometimes an older version and it's played by another fantastic actor because Robert De Niro plays the young Marlon Brando. That in and of itself is just pleasurable to see him doing his version of him and it working so well.
James Part 1:I think this is one of those, bits of movie fortuitous timing that the films were made at a time when, Marlon Brando was the right age for, Robert De Niro to play the younger version of him, like those two actors. At that point, it was just like, one of those lightning in a bottle. Once in a generation type things that you don't get very often. And also Robert De Niro, also, a graduate of the actor's studio, Lee Strasberg's, The Method. So again, the three of them, all method actors on the, you know, the three central pillars of the film. Another thing that lots of sequels suffer from is what we call sequel bloat. You know, so they've just been given a bucket load of money, probably double the amount of money the first film. When you look at these, that's usually the way it's like, okay, I've twice as much as last time. And all it means is that everyone's salaries go up. So everyone gets paid more. That's great, but means they're not as hungry. They're probably not trying as hard and also just get splurged everywhere. And with Godfather 2, every penny's on screen. Like, Oh my God. When we go back in time to little Italy in New York, uh, the period detail, the scale of it. And when you think this is the seventies, there's no way any of that was CG. They built it, you know, it's nice to see a bigger budget being used rather than abused.
Lily:Yes, absolutely. And when they go to the, there is some scenes in Cuba. the minute they land, I was like, ah, that's Cuba. It just is so, so richly done. Every place you go, you know, just looks incredible
James Part 1:It also makes sense, the increase in scale, we're showing that Michael has achieved much in his time as Godfather, he's got much more money, so it's a much richer and opulent world that he moves around in, but also he's more and more distant, you know,
Lily:mm. And again, it's just very pleasing and satisfying to have the anchor of going back in time and seeing the contrast with how How his life was when he was a young man, young, you know, 20s, 30s, trying to make it for his family in New York when they had so little. The contrast really grounds it. it doesn't get too rich and bloated with this opulent life.
James Part 1:and they do the classic thing with Vito's backstory. So, you know, and you almost kind of, you see where it's coming from. He's just trying to do the best he can with what he's got. he's not just terrorizing anybody willy nilly. He's got a code of ethics, let's say. Which again, counterpoints when you go to Michael, you've just got nothing.
Lily:But also counterpoints with if you've seen the first one film seeing what Vito becomes when, by the time he's, you know, the grand godfather of a certain age and how ruthless he is, just getting that, seeing that backstory, seeing that character arc. It's so satisfying.
James Part 1:Yeah, it's like seeing a little startup. You know, you start it in your kitchen around the dinner table and then it gets bigger and then you end up being the boss of a bloated organization and you're just a figurehead.
Lily:It's a story about the mafia or a story about capitalism. One of the same. Okay. Yeah. Well, them, we could argue that perhaps not better than the first, but certainly as good as, and that's amazing.
James Part 1:and that to me, if you enjoyed the first one, all you want from a sequel is to kind of be just given that same feeling that the first film gave you. You don't want it to drop the ball because there's nothing worse. Like Men in Black 2, it just made me feel sad. It was just an empty, crushing experience. Whereas the first one was a fun romp. You know, it was a fun action comedy with Will Smith and he had a great theme tune. And then the second one was like, what the hell is this?
Lily:I know that we covered Star Wars and its latest sequels and an episode recently, but I did think that was what you were going to speak about. I had no idea you have this like deep trauma about men in black. I'm sorry. I'm, so sorry to hear about it.
James Part 1:I mean, I haven't really thought about it for years, but just pondering on sequels, it like really, came to the front of my mind. That was the most excruciating just because it's so overblown and bad and boring. And I think he said it's probably the Phantom Menace was the most soul crushingly disappointing sequel. I would say.
Lily:I can't think of any so. Grushingly disappointing sequels for me because I always
James Part 1:You haven't had time yet, Lily. Give it. until you're about in your forties. They'll come around.
Lily:The thing is, I anticipate, I assume they're going to be bad anyway, so it's more like I'm pleasantly surprised when it's not completely awful. Whereas, you know, with Bridget Jones took me a very long time to see the sequel, the first sequel. And yeah, it was as terrible as I expected and I already emotionally had like, I just, I do not think of this film as having, you know, they're making the fourth sequel right now.
James Part 1:think, I think I messaged, yeah. Yeah. I think I sent you a, a message there.
Lily:Yeah, it's just, I don't, I don't, that does not enter into the like, lore of the movie for me. It doesn't, it. doesn't compute.
James Part 1:It's a bit like the Matrix sequels. I just, the first Matrix and all the other ones just like, nah, they don't exist.
Lily:yeah, exactly. It's just sort of a side element in the universe,
James Part 1:Isn't that bad? Because that is canon. They're all canon, but they were made for the worst reasons, which were they were rushed out to make money. I mean, they all are here to make money, but you can tell. I mean, I know that, Francis Ford Coppola was kind of had to be encouraged to make this sequel to The Godfather 2, and I'm really glad he did. but then, but you know what? Just to touch upon it, you can see what happens when, A Godfather sequel is rushed into production with six weeks to write the script. That's the Godfather
Lily:Oh, Yeah, because I tell you what, I've never had any desire to watch the third one, I think, because I've heard these rumors and I just spotted that with The Godfather 1 and 2, they're both around 66%. it's not particularly a rating I, I take very seriously, but it just, it tells you something for sure.
James Part 1:Because Paramount were meant to make a sequel to a film, and I can't remember what the film was, but it flopped. So they suddenly had a big bunch of cash that they were not going to allocate to this sequel, whatever it was. So they just said, right, what else have we got on the Paramount books? And they're like, ah! A Godfather sequel? Hey Francis, would you like to make a Godfather 3? Yeah, sure, how long have I got? Six weeks before we start shooting, Francis.
Lily:God, it's such a shame because if it was just one and two, that would be like the most delicious two parter.
James Part 1:But I am actually interested in watching this Godfather part 3 that is now called Godfather Coda. You know, he's done his One from the Heart reprise and he's just done Godfather Coda, which is a re edit of the third one. It won't make it great, but I think just like the reprise edition of One from the Heart, I suspect it will be the best version of a not great film.
Lily:Okay, Yeah, I'm gonna watch that. I'm curious. Let's do it.
James Part 1:well, Lily, do you think it's time to take a trip to the film pharmacy?
Lily:Yes, please.
James Part 1:Hello, James and Lily. We all know that films based on video games are bad, and that the only thing worse than them are video games based on films. Why does the film industry, great, great start, why does the film industry insist on making them, with Borderlands as an example coming out soon, and is there anyone that is actually worth the watch? Great question, and I'd immediately like to throw it over to Lily because I'm fascinated to know, have you watched any video game movies Lily?
Lily:I know, I hate this, this is really showing my lack of, lack of knowledge. Okay, I obviously watched The Last of Us when that came out. Okay, it's a TV series.
James Part 1:TV. Lily.
Lily:I know, I know, I know. But God, come on, we're all thinking it. You know what? I realized when we, in our last episode, we didn't ever touch on the, when we were talking about cats, we didn't talk about the butthole edit,
James Part 1:what The hell? I'm more about the Judi Dench human hands
Lily:Oh no, this is much, this is much better.
James Part 1:This is the most avoiding answering a question I've ever heard you, Lilly. I asked you, have you seen any video game movies and you've given me cat's bumholes.
Lily:I just, just very quickly, let me tell you because the fact that you don't know about this is amazing to me, because it was, there was a lot of press about this at the time. So apparently when the first fully rendered cut of cats came out, inadvertently, the SFX people had made cats with, What looked like bumholes they hadn't meant to, but just as cats do, just the way that they had rendered the fur, it did just look like that. And so the head of the SFX was like, Oh my God, are you seeing this? Are you seeing this? It's just a film of bumholes. It's too distracting. So they hired someone, an individual
James Part 1:Let's paint out the
Lily:to paint out all the bumholes. So there was this kind of rumour online that there was the bumhole edit that you had to see, but I did look for it and know that there was no such edit.
James Part 1:Lily's search history. If you combined your and my search history, I think we'd be arrested.
Lily:But sorry, yes, back to, back to video game films. yeah, no, The Last of Us, fantastic. So that would be my recommendation. But you probably have already seen that, because of course it was like a huge, huge, series last year. Though it did really lose its way in the final episode, which was a bit of a shame.
James Part 1:Because I got up the list. I was like, you know, off the top of my head, I could think of a few. But, you know, I did a bit of Googling. Got the list of what, and I was like, it's a rough list. There's nothing on it. I will say for my sins, I did decide to go and give Uncharted a go in 4DX last year. And it was so bad, I walked out after half an hour.
Lily:What is Uncharted?
James Part 1:Oh, it's a, well, it's a film based on a video game. the video game's like a bit like an Indiana Jones adventure thing set in the modern times. You know, you travel the globe trying. So the film had, the guy who plays Spider Man and Mark Wahlberg in it.
Lily:Okay. So, so to, to answer this question, why do you think they keep, the industry keeps insisting on making them if they're so bad?
James Part 1:Hollywood is risk averse. They like intellectual properties that people have heard of. Video games currently make more money than than the film industry does in Hollywood. So there's clearly a big audience for games. They just think those gamers who like playing those games, let's just make them a film.
Lily:it's about getting that audience, tapping into that audience.
James Part 1:Yeah, but the fundamental problem is if you play computer games, it's a completely different experience. I love playing computer games, but I mean, Assassin's Creed is one of my favorite things to kick back and play. But the last thing I want to do is to watch a film of that where I can't control what's happening, where I'm not involved in the adventure. I'm just sat back. Why would I want to do that when I can play the game?
Lily:that's what I'm thinking is that, you know, I'm not, I'm not much of a gamer, but when I imagine doing that sounds so fun to be interactive, to be part of something, the idea of the, of witnessing the exact same thing, but not actually being involved in it.
James Part 1:Here's the thing, Lily, right? Is that computer games, often, the plots are quite ludicrous or quite basic. And so, as a film, they're too simplistic or they're too ludicrous. But in the world of the game, you totally buy it. Like, in Assassin's Creed, you play like somebody who can travel your mind back in time. You can inhabit the body. Brain of somebody from the past and you're in a fight against the Illuminati or something. You know, there's loads of shit going on that just in a film, you'd be like, this is ridiculous. There's too much stuff happening, but you buy it for a game. Cause you're in a different head space. You want to get lost in the middle of this, like over the top game. And the stories have to be a bit simpler because everything, you know, cause you're in the middle of it all. If you had a complicated story, it'd be very difficult to orient yourself.
Lily:As the listener said, you know, the only thing worse is video games based on films. And I'm thinking actually, that could be, if I'd watched a film I really loved with amazing world building set in, you know, the future or another place or, you know, Avatar and the idea of being able to actually play and become immersed in that, to me that sounds like a great idea, but does that, it doesn't work either?
James Part 1:It doesn't work either because the inverse is true is that the gaming industry like, right, let's make a game based on a film, but they're usually afterthoughts, they're usually marketing devices. I used to live with somebody who worked for in Leamington spa for a computer game company and their business model was just, they used to make the tie ins to movies, but they were just done as quickly as possible. were unloved. They were essentially like, you know, they pay the bills.
James Part 2:they'rE not really something that the people being paid to make them or the people actually on the ground making them are passionate about. They're not originally created ideas like a filmmaker wants to make their own film, a game company wants to make their own original game. However, there are a few notable exceptions Enter the Matrix, the game that was created to tie in with the Matrix sequels, which are bad, the game is regarded as better than the sequels itself, it's a much truer sequel to the Matrix film than the actual films themselves, they had specially shot sequences that, were filmed during the making of the feature film that are integrated into the game. So there's lots of, Easter eggs and stuff that ties into the film. So that I think is one of the rare exceptions. And I did. See an interview with Christopher Nolan from 2010, where he was talking that they were developing an Inception game, which would have been, it sounds like an incredible concept for a game, you know, going into dreams of different worlds, but that never happened. So, sorry, that went nowhere.
Lily:never got off the ground. It would be so complicated that I guess it's just too much,
James Part 2:Yeah. And I imagine that. Christopher Owen's quality control is so high that he's not gonna accept something that's a bit
Lily:Yeah. yeah, you're probably right. Okay, well, we couldn't really give you a recommendation of a film based on a video game. But, oh,
James Part 2:oh, well, well, well, I, I can't give you a direct what you've asked for, but I'll give you the closest I'm willing to give you.'cause I can't make you suffer through uncharted. I mean, I went and see, tomb Raider, the first one with Angelina Jolie. So I can't make you suffer through that, but there is a great documentary called The King of Kong that is all about the high score on King Kong because it was, there were two people. Fighting for the top spot for years. And like all good documentaries, it's all about the characters. It's all about the personalities involved. So to see the people who are fighting for this title, one of them's seems to be a bit of a narcissist who kind of is, it's got a very strange relationship with the truth. And then the other one seems to be a pure hearted King Kong fan trying to fight for what's just. That is. Is a video game film that I can recommend.
Lily:That sounds brilliant. I love a niche documentary. I think I've recommended before the documentary, Dry Eye Dreams of Sushi, a film about an incredible sushi master in Japan. That kind of stuff I love, you know. Give me a good documentary about something I know nothing about and I'm gonna love it. if The characters are great, so that sounds
James Part 2:So, so can, can you offer our listeners a tendril of something video game related?
Lily:were about to just move on, wrap up the show, skip over the fact that this is an era where I know nothing about.
James Part 2:Sorry, that's really bad. That's really bad of me as a co host. I'm really wanting to throw you under the bus, mate. Sorry,
Lily:Yes, Yes, I look, I'm firmly under the bus. I can, I'm trying to crawl out from the bus. All I can give you is The Last of Us, the most obvious recommendation, but it is very, very good until the end. So there you go. That's all I can give you. Ah,
James Part 2:it yet just because I am playing the game and I just want to get to the end of the game because I don't want it to spoil what's coming up in the game because the game's got lots of twists and turns, so and I hear it's great, but I'm finishing the game first because that's the source, you know, that's the origin of the story.
Lily:Okay. Fine. Well, yeah, give it a, give it a few months, I think, and then, and then come back to it. All right. Well, thank you everyone for listening to another episode of Groovy Movies.
James Part 2:And if you could find your way to leaving us a good review or leave us a few, uh, and if you could find your way to leaving us a five star review, it all helps get, and if you could, and if you could find your way to leaving us a like or a five star review, it all helps get the podcast out to a wider audience.
Lily:So we'll see you in two weeks time. Bye.
James Part 2:Bye. Hey, cool.
Lily:was a beautiful episode. I'm very pleased. God, the difference when I'm not sleep deprived. It's stark. Yeah! 3, 2, 1, One sync.
James Part 2:So I can't quite remember how we got into a bit, but so what we're talking about. Oh yeah. But, um, I know our, our, um, or I know our listeners said that, uh, the only thing worse than films based on video games are video games based on films. But, uh, and I think. Oh, no, I was telling you about my friend who worked a bit, sorry, sorry. So my friend, a lot, a lot, a lot of them are just tie ins. A lot of them are just tie ins, uh, kind of just, uh, they're an afterthought. They're not really something that the people being paid to make them or the people actually on the ground making them are passionate about. Um, because they're not being, they're not originally created ideas because when you're, like a filmmaker wants to make their own film, a game company wants to make their own original game. However, there are a few notable exceptions or at least the only one that comes to mind immediately will be. The, um, the Enter the Matrix, the game that was created to tie in with the Matrix sequels, which are bad, the game is regarded as better than the sequels itself, it's a much truer sequel to the Matrix film than the actual films themselves, they had specially shot sequences that, uh, were filmed during the making of the feature film that are integrated into the game. So there's lots of, uh, like Easter eggs and stuff that ties into the film. So that I think is one of the rare exceptions. And I did. See an interview with Christopher Nolan from 2010, where he was talking that they were developing an Inception game, which would have been, it sounds like an incredible concept for a game, you know, going into dreams of different worlds, but that never happened. So, sorry, that went nowhere.
Lily:never got off the ground. It was a great con.
James Part 2:the, the, the one, the one computer, sorry.
Lily:I'd say it would be so, it would be so complicated that I guess it's just too much,
James Part 2:Yeah. And I imagine that. Christopher Owen's quality control is so high that he's not gonna accept something that's a bit
Lily:Yeah. yeah, you're probably right. Okay, well, we couldn't really give you a recommendation of a film based on a video game. But, oh,
James Part 2:oh, well, well, well, I, I can't give you recommendation direct. I can't give you a direct what you've asked for, but I'll give you the closest I'm willing to give you.'cause I can't make you suffer through uncharted. I can't make you watch. I mean, I went and see, uh. Tomb Raider, the first one with Angelina Jolie. So I can't make you suffer through that, but there is a great documentary called The King of Kong that is all about the high score on King Kong because it was, there were two people. Fighting for the top spot for years. And like all good documentaries, it's all about the characters. It's all about the personalities involved. So to see the people who are fighting for this title, they are, you know, that one of them's seems to be a bit of a narcissist who kind of is, it's got a very strange relationship with the truth. And then the other one seems to be a pure hearted King Kong fan trying to fight for what's just. That is. Is a video game film that I can recommend.
Lily:That sounds brilliant. I'm going to watch that. I love a niche documentary. Like, I think I recommend it before Gyro, Gyro Loves Sushi. Let me check that that is correct. Oh no, yes. Gyro Sushi. I think I've recommended before the documentary, Dry Eye Dreams of Sushi, a film about an incredible sushi master in Japan. That kind of stuff I love, you know. Before, previous no knowledge, give me a good documentary about something I know nothing about and I'm gonna love it. if The characters are great, so that sounds
James Part 2:So, so can, can you offer our listeners a tendril of something video game related?
Lily:Hey, I thought we, were about to just move on, wrap up the show, skip over the fact that this is an era, a real, an era where I know nothing about.
James Part 2:Sorry, that's really bad. That's really bad of me as a co host. I'm really wanting to throw you under the bus, mate. Sorry,
Lily:Yes, Yes, I look, I'm firmly under the bus. I can, I'm trying to crawl out from the bus. All I can give you is The Last of Us, the most obvious recommendation, but it is very, very good until the end. So there you go. That's all I can give you. Ah,
James Part 2:it yet just because I am playing the game and I just want to get to the end of the game because I don't want it to spoil what's coming up in the game because the game's got lots of twists and turns, so and I hear it's great, but I'm finishing the game first because that's the source, you know, that's the origin of the story. That's where it, that's, that's it's, uh, it's home format. That's where it's at.
Lily:Okay. Fine. Well, yeah, give it a, give it a few months, I think, and then, and then come back to it. All right. Well, thank you everyone for listening to another episode of Groovy Movies.
James Part 2:and if you could find your way to leaving us a like or a five star review, it all helps get the podcast out to a wider audience.
Lily:So we'll see you in two weeks time. Bye.
James Part 2:Bye.