Spirit-Led Leadership vs. Performance-Driven Leadership

In this episode we cover the importance of not being led by metrics and how to evaluate our hearts in a way to honor God.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hey, welcome to this episode of the Leading Life Change podcast. Today we are excited to have a conversation about spirit-led leadership versus performance-driven leadership and making some distinctions between those as we live out what God is calling us to do.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Well, Pastor Nate, I'm really enjoying our series we're in on the Holy Spirit prompt, living a spirit-led life. And Pastor Drew did a great job on Sunday. And I just love talking about how the Holy Spirit impacts our everyday life. And even in our sphere, when you talk about spirit leadership, you talk about um basically leading from intimacy with God, you know, and that um understanding that the Holy Spirit goes before us and He He truly does lead us into all truth, versus as leaders, whether it's ministry leaders, business leaders, leading from pressure, leading from image or metrics. And uh this one hits me pretty close to home because I feel like I kind of grew up in a performance-driven culture that um has something that I've had to continually crucify in my life as a leader. I remember my first pastorate and being in that church. And after a Sunday, if I felt like I did really good preaching, I was like, man, I was I was on top of the world and excited. If I felt like um, you know, it was only a single, or, or maybe I struck out, or uh, you know, people didn't respond like I thought they would, then all of a sudden I'm kind of in, you know, I'm having a black Monday, you know. And so it's something the Lord's really challenged me with. And I just think um, you know, it's so important when we talk about being led of the spirit, um, that we are spirit-led leaders in what we do versus being performance-driven.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

Yeah, I think uh it's a it's something that we need to learn and make sure that we have our eyes open to recognize when we start to lean that way. Absolutely. You know, and and it's not that it's not that performance isn't just inherently bad. You know, it's kind of like that that thought of like we want to do things with excellence. Yes. And so like there's there's merit to that in honoring the Lord with excellence, but it can absolutely, I mean, it can it can get to the place where it becomes like an idol in your life. Yes, where you're so focused on on the performance aspect of it and what you're delivering, and um that that that you almost just completely seclude God out of the equation. Yes. And you're doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Absolutely, absolutely. And as I was uh thinking about this last couple days, I I couldn't help but think about um the contrast between King Saul and King David. We've probably referenced some of that before, but the difference between spirit-led leadership and performance-based leadership is seen in the story of these two. And you think about how Saul began with humility, but over time, to your point, it's something that we can kind of begin to veer off. And uh he became obsessed with public approval and fear of people, um, impatience, comparison, outward success. And um in 1 Samuel 13, you can read through verses 8 through 14. But Saul was waiting for the prophet Samuel to arrive before battle. The people were getting impatient and scattering, the pressure was mounting. And so instead of obeying God's expectation and process, Saul forced the situation and offered the sacrifice himself. And this was taboo because he was a king, not a priest. And in him doing that, he was really disobeying. But um, as Samuel arrived, uh Saul was basically saying, I, you know, I saw the people leaving, so I felt compelled, I had to do it. The phrase really reveals that performance-driven leadership that we saw Saul become. And um, you know, I think as as leaders, no matter where we're at in the trajectory of our leadership over time, that we have to, as you said, we have to remember, keep our eyes open. Am I slipping into this? Am I reverting back to this? Am I getting in the ditch with this? Because the opposite of that, we can look at uh David, who we know he wasn't always spirit-led, we know that. Uh, but we see his spirit-led leadership, I believe, as he learned from his failures and some of those things in David in 1 Samuel 30, verses 1 through 8. Um, the enemy attacked Ziklag, and um, you know, they took the the wives and the children, even though they didn't kill him, they took them captive. And uh David's own men were getting upset and actually spoke out about stoning him. And uh you think about a performance-based leader might, you know, panic, um, try to manipulate the situation, force action. But if you read down in that passage, it said David strengthened himself and the Lord is God. He he leaned into the spirit and his leadership for that moment because David wasn't in control of everything. Yeah. Um, and then later on it says David inquired of the Lord. He he paused his heart, he prayed, and asked God's direction before acting. And and what a dichotomy, what a difference. And the two, um, because you know, performance-driven leadership would say, you know, how do I keep this going? How do I change this? How do I make this happen? How do I force this? But a spirit-led leadership would say, God, what are you saying from this? And where do I go from here? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

I think it just it's that it's kind of like that life posture of saying, Lord, your will be done, not mine. Absolutely. That it's that that we sacrifice the way that we would evaluate and like how we would try to take the reins, you know. Um, you know, you were sharing about Saul. I was reminded of I think it's like Numbers uh 20 when Moses struck the rock twice. Yes. The Israelites were complaining because there wasn't enough, they didn't think there was enough water. And so he went and struck the rock twice and and it cost him. Yeah, it cost him, just like it cost Saul. Um, you know, I think that I I think that we we definitely need to realize that there there are there can be consequences. There often are consequences when um when we veer off from what the Lord is asking us to do. Yes. Um, that there's re repercussions to that. There's repercussions to that. I think sometimes in the moment we don't, you know, we're we get tunnel visioned, um, whether that's flesh or pride or whatever it is, you know, whatever you want to call it, um, that we can get tunnel visioned and we lose sight of that, but we need to be humbled enough that we realize that that the the main thing, the the number one thing we need to do is just be obedient to the Lord. And uh I heard somebody even say, like when we're when we're trying to get a word from the Lord and like hear what the Lord wants us to do in a situation, um, the best thing you can do is just think back on what the last thing you heard the Lord say to you. Yes, absolutely. Because oftentimes, like we, you know, the Lord will give us a word and and then and then we will end up off in the weed somewhere. And uh, and so we just gotta go back to that thing, go back to that thing and be obedient to the Lord and just continue to follow what He's what He's asking us to do.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

Absolutely. I love that you talked about Moses and how he was supposed to speak to it when he struck it because he's like, we gotta make this happen. Yeah. And uh I I think so often as leaders we can get into that mode, whether it's in again in business, it's in our personal lives, it's it's in church, you know, our church leadership. I mean, it's so easy for us to say, okay, this is taking too long, and I'm gonna I'm gonna make this happen. And I think it's a good thing. And and sometimes it could be a good thing, um, but a good thing can't replace a God thing, you know, when God is speaking to us. But um I want you to think of it this way. I I every year I go to I go to my doctor and I get a checkup. And you know, they'll run labs and check my blood pressure and you know, all those things. And uh from that, you know, I go to my uh portal and I can read like what my labs are, and it's it's it's the results, right? Not always the results I want to see. Um, but it allows me to pivot, it allows me to, you know, course correct in my my life and my physical body, because I am trying to be healthy in in my age, you know. Um, but I think about how you know when I'm just going through my everyday life, how sometimes I miss those things. Right. And um, you know, if I don't, if I don't get a checkup and and and really have somebody as you know, medical check my my numbers and stuff, I may not realize it. And I think sometimes as leaders, it's easy for us to have blind spots. Sure. And we we think we're doing the right thing at times, or we think we're processing God's way and oh yeah, Holy Spirit, we love the Holy Spirit and we're following the Holy Spirit, but I think sometimes the physical checkup or spiritual checkup would reveal something different. And I think about how if you're performance-based leaders, or you get into that performance season where maybe you're feeling pressure and you know you you need to make things happen, there is definitely some things that result from that. And I think of things like exhaustion, like sleep doesn't fix it, right? Um comparison, it's easy to get in that comparison mode where we're comparing this business with that one, this church with that one, this leadership with that one, and it's that comparison obviously is never gonna benefit a leader. Yeah, but it's really it really emerges from that performance-driven uh perspective, insecurity, um striving, like again, I I need to force it to happen. Um and then just like I think temporary or I would I I would even say like shallow success, right? Like um not long success. Like, okay, I had success in the season because I I made something happen and you know it it it helped me internally, you know, and and and it really wasn't really lasting fruit that the Lord wants to bring forth. The opposite of that and and is this spirit-led leadership that produces peace, right? We we operate from a sense of peace. I think it's unhurried, like we're not feeling like this pressure to make things happen in our time. Yeah. Discernment, you know, you think about how the Lord will speak. Scripture says that if we lack wisdom to ask and the Lord will give it to us, He doesn't always give it to us microwave style. He doesn't always say, Okay, I'm gonna tell you right now, we have to press into him, we have to wait on him. I think that's a a key component to being spirit-led. Yeah, um, obviously, obedience, um, longevity. A lot of times I think leaders get into that performance mentality, they burn out and there's not longevity. But when we we talk about spirit-led leadership, no matter what kind of season you're walking through, there's longevity, and then ultimately there's transformation. And the Holy Spirit brings transformation as a result of his leadership in our lives, you know. Again, whether it's in business, personally, you know, in church life, we know that the Holy Spirit is the one that leads us in ways that are healthy, unhealthy, healthy, performance, um driven, spirit-led.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Yeah, that's so good. So the spirit-led leader operates in peace, discernment, obedience, longevity, transf and transformation. Um, you know, I think of the difference between it like uh a king and a steward. Yes, you know, and and and this is how I've even started to look at look at just my life and and how I offer myself to the Lord um to be used and and understanding that the things that the things that the Lord allows us into and the the opportunities that he gives us, that we need to approach it with a steward's heart, you know, and the steward ultimately serves the king. Yes, the kingdom is not the steward's, the steward is just overseeing the thing. And so, like, even you know, what you talked about with the comparison trap that sometimes we can fall into and that leaders can fall into, you know, church is a real thing, like there's a comparison trap in church, absolutely where you look at another ministry or another leader and you're like, why are they why are they getting to do this? Or we feel like we need to do something to inch us closer to what that person's doing. But but God is, you know, called them and using them in a very specific lane, and he's wanting to do the same with you. Absolutely, and it doesn't always look the same. And so, um, and so our our responsibility as a steward is to do what the king has assigned us to do. And uh, and so I think that, you know, again, it's that it's that that challenge that our flesh would want to want to let it become like it becomes a pride thing. Yes. And uh, and so the performance-driven leader can start to operate from that place of pride. And I think the I think at the root of it too, there's there's some fear there. You know, there's fear of what whether you want acceptance or approval, or you feel like, well, if I don't do this, what are what are they gonna think of me if this doesn't go this way? And I know and and I feel confident that I can strong arm it and and make it happen. Yes, you know, and and there's some things that we might be able to make happen, but it would have been so much better if we would have trusted God's process and and not not let our pride or our fear be the thing that has driven and steered us.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Absolutely. And even this morning I was you know kind of praying through this podcast, and I was reminded in scripture that it says walk in the spirit, right? And so it's not run, it's it's walk. And I think the unhurried pace in a very hurried world, busy world is important for us for us as leaders, yeah, spirit-led leaders. When you feel hurried, you usually don't make a good decision. I know many times if I look back and see decisions that I made, and even decisions I thought, you know, this is this is okay. I feel like this is acceptable, this is not disobeying God or you know, whatever. That when I when I was forced to make a quicker decision, I feel like that's when it really was emerging from a performance-driven perspective. And when I wait on him and and lean into him and hear him, God is faithful to be clear, God is faithful to lead us. I mean, scripture teaches that that um as uh uh spiritual beings, when we have decisions to make, when we um are overseeing a a ministry or a business or overseeing people, uh the Lord is faithful to to lead if we will just lean into that and not get caught up into the the performance trap, you know. Um and I know I know it's hard because you you think about modern culture, right? Um the TED talks and um the leadership books, we know that so many times we understand that modern culture, even sometimes modern church culture um rewards performance. Right. Um I mean you even think about when it comes to you know people working in an organization, they'll do performance reviews, right? Right. Um numbers and and um productivity and things that are visible and things that are evident. Um but God's kingdom prioritizes different things. Yeah, right. Uh you kind of mentioned that.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

I think that that's where that's where we gotta find that healthy balance of doing things with excellence to honor the Lord. Yes. And this is something that I clarify with our worship team and our creative team all the time is that we want to do things with excellence, but we don't want to be so excellence driven that it jeopardizes our our obedience. And so one thing that like the Lord's like really like just I feel like there's seasons where it, you know, it that thing pops back up or that that thought pops back up, and it's just like the Holy Spirit like reminding you, and and so something I've been discipling our team in is um the importance of obedience, you know, and it kind of directly speaks to this that that if we just take worship leading, for example, um, this is the example that I'm using for our team, is um with worship leading, it's so easy to let the pendulum swing to the evaluation process where where you feel like you need to prove yourself or like you the evaluation questions that you start asking yourself after you come off platform, you know, we do a worship set, we come off platform, and the things that are rolling through your mind is okay, did that song land well? Like, did did it seem like it went okay? Did the band do okay? Did I did I sing all the notes right? You know, what did I hit that, did I hit that high note? Um, did people respond in the room? You know, and like what was what was the engagement, you know, and we start to base ourselves on on that. And that's how we that's how we evaluate if we did a good job, you know, and and I think that that, you know, like you said, the performance trap that we can fall into is that we start we start operating in a way to achieve those things instead of operating in a way to honor God with our obedience. And so when we invite the Lord into it, the question then doesn't be it shifts from being those things, those like you know, cover things, like the thing, the those just immediate things that are visible, yeah, the visible things. That's what I was looking for. And it shifts to the quote, the only question is, was I obedient to the Lord? Yes. And and if we if we can say that we did, if that we did our best, that we offered our best with in excellence, and we were obedient to the Lord, like then it was then it was a success. I mean, honestly, like that's what God is looking for. God is looking for us to be obedient because I uh I talked to our team about the importance of being led by the Spirit in those moments because there's times when we've got a set list planned and like the Lord will just drop a different song in my heart, you know. This last Sunday, we had we we we got to the end of our set and we had another song planned at the end, but as we were just sitting there and like and just sitting in worship, the the the Holy Spirit just dropped a different song in my in my heart and we went with it. And and I think it's important for us to realize that like the Holy Spirit's not gonna lead us to do something that's dishonoring to the Lord. Right. The Holy Spirit is our helper. And so when we learn to discern the voice of the Holy Spirit in that direction, you know, he's gonna lead us to do the things that move the heart of the Father. And so, and so, and so it's important to be obedient in those moments. And sometimes the Holy Spirit's gonna ask us to do things that are uncomfortable, you know, say something that's uncomfortable or be quiet when it's uncomfortable, to move slow, walk slow when it's uncomfortable. But it's all part of we have to have that heart to be obedient to the Lord, and that that has to be the driving factor of our life so that we don't become performance driven, but we can be spirit-driven leaders.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

That's so good. Because in a performance perspective, in your situation Sunday, in your mind, you could have said, we didn't practice that one though. Right? Yeah, and so we don't want to, yeah, you know, we don't want to jump out there because we didn't practice that one, or maybe, you know, not everybody knows the song on the on the platform. And and so many things can work against it. But as you said, it's obedience. Yeah. You know, I also think it's it's faithfulness, right? Let's be faithful to the Lord. You know, uh faithful it faithful is just this idea of no matter how it feels. No matter what's going on around me, I'm going to be faithful. I'm going to show up and I'm going to be all in and give my all and do things with excellence the best I can. I mean, uh excellence does honor God. But obedience trumps even that, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Yeah. I think it can be both. It can be excellence and obedience, but the trap is when it just becomes excellence. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

Exactly. And then you talk about what's visible. The other part of that is I'm thinking, okay, what everybody can see, what everybody can see on the platform, what everybody can see in social media, what everybody can see in your business. But you think about it. God prioritizes and values things that are unseen more than things that are seen. You think of character, you think of spiritual depth, you think of, you know, a life of prayer. You think of, you know, walking in ways that honor the Lord outside of visibility, right? And and how that really speaks about being led of the spirit, not just when everybody's watching. Yeah. Right. But led of the spirit every opportunity we can. And um I love that. So I I think about how when I get into performance, here's some things I've noticed. And maybe this will really speak to some leaders that are just exhausted, that are you feel like you're on the treadmill and you're not going anywhere. And that's kind of what performance is. It's a treadmill that you're moving, you're sometimes you're moving fast, but you're not going anywhere. Um, but I I would feel guilty when resting. Like, you know, you think about taking that time to rest, taking a day off, taking, you know, you know, taking a break, whatever that that a lot of times when it's performance, you're you're guilty because you got to keep moving. People gotta see that, you know. Um, I think of how prayer becomes secondary to productivity, right? So sometimes we again, what people see becomes more important than what people can't see are lives of prayer seeking the Lord. Um when I when I get into performance, I can be obsessive over metrics and validation. And I want to speak to some pastors maybe here today that really struggle with this, and maybe you've got into a place of comparison, and you know, you're you're you're just you know, you're you're working hard, you're trying hard, God sees you, but but you're really obsessing over numbers, whether it's nickels or noses. And I will tell you that um there was a there was a long season of my life where I had to unhook from knowing what was happening every week. So, you know, somebody counts, you're like, okay, how many are here today? There was a time I had to leave that alone. Yeah. And hey, how much, you know, did we did we make budget today? Did enough come in, or whatever? I had to unhook from that because it was literally driving me to a to an unhealthy place. And and now we do a little bit of that metric-wise, and and I'm I'm in a much healthier place, and I understand that you can't measure the fruit of a ministry based on one Sunday. You can't, you just can't do that. And so part of that is the maturity in me has understood that. Um, but I I just want to encourage those pastors today. You may have to to step out of performance and to be led by the spirit um to say, you know what, somebody else needs to count, somebody else needs to, you know, count the the offering, and I just don't need to know right now. Obviously, you know, it's it is good to to to measure because that helps us, but um, but it can be obsessive. Yep. And that's what I would avoid. The other part is um your fear of disappointing people. When I get into performance, I get a fear of disappointing people, and opposite of that is trying to please people, right? And uh I can by nature, because of that performance, become a people pleaser.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

And the truth is, as leaders, as much as we love people, there's gonna be times where you're not gonna please them. Yeah, you're gonna make decisions, you're gonna preach on something, you know, you're you're you're gonna do things that that they don't prefer. Like, and people will let you know that. And you just have to remember again, you're obeying the Lord first. Like He's your first audience. Yeah. Um, another thing when you get into performance is um, you know, it's hard to celebrate other successes. So you hear this tremendous story, this testimony, you know, oh man, we had this many. We had, and then all of a sudden I'm like, oh man, good for them. Right. Right. And uh, and then you know, you you you just struggle with that. And then I think the one of the last things is um your worth, like the value of your leadership and your mind rises and falls with outcomes. Again, going back to when I was a young pastor and preached good, didn't preach good in my mind, then my worth was based on that. And the Lord never called us to that. Like our worth, our worth and our validation, our calling comes from him. Yeah, and God wants us to know that if we're just obeying him, no matter what happens, you know, he's we're his son, we're his daughter. Yeah, and and we just need to be faithful. Yeah, and and then when we know that, no matter what happens, hey, we have a we have a rough Sunday or nobody responds to the altar call or or whatever it is, song doesn't land well, okay. Uh there's things I can learn from it, but my worth and the worth of our team and the worth of our ministry today to the Lord um doesn't change with outcomes.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

Yeah. Well, I think sometimes like we just we can't evaluate things the way that the Lord does. I mean, that's just the reality of it. Exactly. And and so like even in the context of worship, like, you know, I there's been times when I've led a song and like I feel like like it's moving the heart of God, you know, and and like the congregation is just stoic, like, you know, and like it just it's like, oh man, nobody's responding to this, you know. And and and it'd be easy for me to like just let that be the evaluation of well that bombed, you know, but but there's been so many instances, and maybe it's just got maybe it it's been God, you know, like showing me like that I don't know what he's doing in people's hearts, yeah. But where I'll come off platform and I'll after worship, I'll go get my coffee or something, and somebody will come up to me and they'll be like, man, like that song that you did, like God was speaking to me. This is what I've been going through this weekend, and like this is what God was, you know, and it's just this profound thing. And so if we are just focused on what what people can see, what we can see, yes, you know, if that's our only priority, we're we're it's not gonna take long for us to fall off track and for and for us to start to uh evaluate uh the wrong things.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Exactly, exactly. I love that. I love that comparison. I love I love that that comparison you gave that uh you know so many times when we feel like we don't do well, the Lord is speaking to people. Yeah. You know, there's been times I felt like, man, that was that was a bomb message, and that's when I hear the most, all right? Sure.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

And then it's when I think that's the worst message I've ever preached in my life. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Then other times I feel like I preached a home run, and dude.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Like, yeah, good job. Yeah, or nobody says anything.

SPEAKER_00 29:39

And you know, and obviously the Lord wants to keep you humble, but but the Lord also just wants you to have perspective. Yep. Again, faithful, faithfulness, yeah, obedience to what he said, leave the results to God, you know. But it's it's interesting. So I think about how when you when you talk about being led of the spirit, and obviously we're talking about that on Sunday in different ways and what that looks like. But today, as we talk about how um our leadership is supposed to be spirit-led. So for people that struggle with performance, spirit-led leadership can feel very passive. But we understand that it's actually deeply dependent leadership on the Spirit of God. Jesus modeled this in John chapter 5, verse 19, when it says, the Son can do nothing by himself. He only does what he sees the Father doing. Jesus refused independent leadership and performance-based leadership, and he literally leaned into his father and allowed him to direct him, and he only did what he said. And so I think it's important, no matter what leadership role we're in, to um know that being led of the spirit in our leadership is not passive. Yeah, it's not being lazy, it's not being lax, that it's actually something that produces eternal fruit uh when we lean into him. I also think that uh you know, when you think about um drifting into performance, uh, you know, I think these are these are some things that um are probably cause a little bit that that sometimes the Lord has to deal with in us. When you think of insecurity, you know, for some it can be wounds, you know, emotional wounds, wounds from childhood, things we carry, things that fill cause a filter to experience that can affect us. Um fear of failure. Some people are just so obsessed with I don't want to fail, so they don't take a step of faith, they don't risk. And um, you know, basically paralyzes them. Performance can paralyze us. Yeah. Um, obviously need for approval. We talked about that validation. I think unhealthy ambition, you know, you think about when I know when God spoke to us about the you know, these planting of campuses years ago. I mean, you have to always measure or test, you know, the why. Like what's what's the Lord speaking in the why? Yeah. It's not for credit, it's not for approval, it's not for people to say, oh man, look what they're doing. That can never lead, right? That that's gotta be that actually has to be a flesh factor that is rooted out of our hearts, right? Um unhealthy ambition. So we gotta make sure that that we're um our ambition is to honor the Lord and and win souls and disciple people for Jesus. Um again, we talked about comparison and and the lack of secret place prayer. We can get into performance when we're not seeking the Lord. We're not praying. God's not able to commune with us because we're not taking the time to listen. And I think that's easy. It's easy grounds for us to drift into performance. We talked about Saul drifted. We talk about how it's easy for us, even though we may feel like we're on the right track, to drift into those places of performance. And and so some good measuring tools, I think, for for leaders, and no matter what aspect of leadership they're in, is some things to uh just you know discover, investigate, you know, pray, ask the Lord to reveal those things and and um make sure that we are pressing into the spirit, that we're praying before planning, we're we're um we're silent, we're listening before him, we're taking Sabbath and rest because the day you're taking Sabbath is the day the world still functions, right? So the world doesn't depend on you, the church doesn't depend on you, your business doesn't depend on you to function. You can take a day of Sabbath and rest. Um really it's an act of trust, um accountability. Um, we know that uh whenever we are in isolation, that's that's where performance can happen. And we need people around us, people that will say, hey, um, how are you doing spiritually? Are you growing you know, how are you growing? You know, what's what's what's taking place in your heart that we can't see. Um, and then obviously identity. Our value is never in um the the titles or the positions. In fact, sometimes I'll I'll I'll be honest with you, I when I when I introduce myself to people, um, I never say, hey, I'm Pastor Quentin, because that's not my identity, right? I happen to be a pastor, but I'm like, hey, my name, uh, you know, I'm Quentin, good to meet you. And some people say this is Pastor Quentin or this is our pastor, and that's fine because that's my role to them. But my role to me is son, right? Is is Quentin. He calls me by name. And and again, when we have that per performance perspective, it we can get our identity from titles and labels and attendance and revenue and all these things that sometimes are not helpful to us. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

It's an easy thing to fall into. I think that uh if we're honest with ourselves, you know, like you and I, like we've both been there. I think anybody that's listening to this, it's easy to fall into that performance mindset. And uh, and I think we just, you know, we got to be mature enough as leaders that we can ask ourselves, like you said, ask the why. The why behind what we're wanting to do, the why behind the direction that we're wanting to take, and be mature enough that if the why is performance-led and not so much spirit-led, that we slow down and that we that we really re-evaluate. Um, I think that I think that there's just some important accountability that we have to place on ourselves. You know, if we truly sit back and say that we want to honor God with the work of our hands and we want to honor God with what we're doing, and we want to be obedient to Him, then we can't let that change when we're when we're given an opportunity to go perform it, you know, to let let the pendulum swing to the performance side of things. Um, we can't lose sight of that. Um, because that's the that's the thing that will help rein it in. That's the thing that will help keep us, you know, horses. When they're plowing, you know, they used to use horses to plow. I guess some people still do, but uh, but they'd put blinders on them. So they would uh they they'd put blinders on them that would go on the sides of their eyes so they can't look to the left or the right, and all they can focus on is just straight ahead. Sometimes we got to have those blinders like put on us, like we just gotta hone in on what the Lord's telling us to do and make sure that we're running after it.

SPEAKER_00 36:57

Absolutely, absolutely. Just a closing thought. Um, you know, God never called us to carry leadership alone. He just never expects us to do it on in our own strength, in our own human ingenuity, um, you know, not by power, not by strength, but by my spirit, says the Lord. I got that. But um, not by might, not by power, but by my spirit, says the Lord. Um, he never called us to do it alone. And he's called us to walk with him, right? And out of that intimacy, out of that abiding him, John 15, um, we are able to produce the fruit that God, yeah, God values. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

And God's got so much, so many good things for us. I mean, there's so many things that he works out, you know, that we look back on it and we're like, man, that turned out so much better than if I would have done it the way that I wanted to in the moment. Yes. And so, yeah, we just gotta, we gotta trust him, abide in him, and uh, and he and trust that he's gonna work it out, you know. God's been at this a lot longer than we have. And so he's got a lot of plans and things in place. Absolutely. But uh, Pastor, as we close today, would you just pray for those leaders that are listening? Um, just to encourage their hearts.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

Absolutely. Heavenly Father, we come before you today. God, we thank you for those that have taken the time, God, just to listen to this podcast today. God, we thank you that you teach us in your word, Father God, the things that we need to know, the things we need to understand as leaders. God, I thank you that uh we are focused on being spirit-led leaders instead of performance-driven leaders. God, help us to be led by your spirit, not be driven by our flesh. Father God, I pray that you would uh help us get our identity from you. Lord, realizing that the call to lead comes from you and you don't call us to carry that alone, but Father, you walk with us and you teach us. Scripture says the Holy Spirit teaches us all things. Father God, I pray that we'd value the secret place more than we value the public platform. I pray that you would help us to give, Lord, our time to obedience rather than applause. And Father God, I pray that you would define success in our hearts. And Father God, that we would be very intentional about being people that unhook from those things that can be so harmful, so damaging, and even lead us down a wrong road and really lean into the Spirit of God. Father, I pray for pastors, I pray for staff pastors, I pray for business leaders, God, I pray for people that are just listening, that maybe this applies to them and their parenting, maybe it applies to them and their marriage, maybe it applies to them, Lord God, and just their daily lives. I pray, Lord, that the Holy Spirit would become so real to them, Lord. God, we thank you. We praise you in Jesus' name.

SPEAKER_01 40:05

Amen. Amen. Well, thank you for joining us this time on the Leading Life Change podcast. We'll catch you in the next one.