Community is Vital for Spiritual Growth with Dr. Vanessa Seifert

I couldn't be more thrilled to bring you my conversation with the insightful Dr. Vanessa Seifert. Vanessa's tale begins with her high school sports experiences and the recognition of her inherent leadership skills, a story that's not just about the roles we assume, but about the leaderly behaviors we exhibit in every walk of life. Her narrative is shaped by the support of her coach, the unwavering belief of her husband, and her drive to inspire a community where both leaders and learners can prosper.

Embarking on an exploration of Vanessa's current role as a Director of Christian Education, we uncover the transformative impact of her practical approach to adult education, which is breathing new life into Christian formation in Nebraska. The Leadership Learning Communities initiative she spearheads is a groundbreaking endeavor that's shaking up pastoral learning with peer groups and coaching, fostering a culture of collaborative and mission-driven leadership that's ripe for ecclesiastical renaissance. Our dialogue is a testament to Vanessa's dedication to creating environments where church circuits can flourish through intentional engagement and formation practices.

Finally, we navigate the spiritual dimensions of leadership, discussing how our identities as beloved children of God and the practice of discipleship are central to our self-discovery and deepening of our bond with Jesus. Vanessa and I tackle the challenges posed by distractions like technology, and emphasize the vital role of community in our spiritual lives. We celebrate the diffusion of innovation theory within the church, and the strength diversity brings to our congregations, as Vanessa's experiences remind us of the importance of adaptive change and relationship-building in the leadership and pastoral community.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Leigh Time is a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective, hosted by Tim Ollman and Jack Caliber. The ULC envisions the future in which all congregations fully equip the priesthood of all the leaders through world-class leadership development at the local level. Leigh Time taps into biblical wisdom for practical solutions to today's burning issues. Each podcast confronts real-time struggles facing the local church in a post-Christian culture. Step into the action with the ULC at unitel leadershiporg. This is Leigh Time.

Speaker 2: 0:30

Welcome Leigh Time. This is Tim Ollman and I get the privilege today to hang out with Dr Vanessa Seifert. Vanessa has a PhD in organizational leadership. She and I have run in some of the same leadership circles. We care about leadership development and pastoral formation and trying to be as healthy as possible. Vanessa was also on with me. We kind of had an impromptu conversation some months ago and I've been excited for this chat today. We're going to hear a little bit of her story and we're going to talk about our goal is that pastors and leaders would one be learners and then be in communities where other adults in particular would go on the leadership and learning journey as well. Vanessa, how are you doing today?

Speaker 3: 1:20

I'm doing great, Tim. I'm excited to be here. Thank you for the conversation today.

Speaker 2: 1:25

Likewise, it's going to be a good time. So, all right, let's dig into your story a little bit. When did you first know that you were a leader, and who cast that vision for your leadership journey?

Speaker 3: 1:36

Oh man, lots of stories. So maybe a good starting point is to define a leader. There's so many different ways that people define leadership. I like to define it very simply as this A leader is anyone who practices leaderly behaviors. I know that's not an earth-shattering definition Position can be part of the conversation, for sure but anybody can be a leader who practices leaderly behaviors, and I'm pretty confident we're going to loop back around to unpacking that definition some more throughout our conversation and even situating it within learning and leadership development and Christian formation. And so I'll just quickly say that I think I first realized that I was a leader in high school sports, and so I'll share just a super quick story of my basketball experience. I went to a very large high school in Houston, texas. I grew up on church and so I did not have people from the church speaking into my life. Instead, I had coaches and teammates and parents as those primary formative voices in my life and, interestingly, my high school basketball team was pretty rare for the late 90s. All five starters played college basketball.

Speaker 3: 2:46

And so the youth sports movement has blown up in the last 20 years, so that trend might be a little bit more common now, but, yeah, so, needless to say, we had a lot of personalities on this basketball team, and so my high school coach really spoke into me as someone, and she said it in her own wise ways to a high school girl, and so the words I'm using are clearly not the words that coach Sharon Farah used with me, but she essentially told me Vanessa, you're a natural encourager, you're a natural connector.

Speaker 3: 3:15

You bring out the best in people and you point us to where we need to go. I need you to bring that, and I need you to bring it very consistently this year, and so I would say Sharon Farah was probably that first and foremost, very instrumental person in my life who spoke into me as a leader. Tim, I think you're asking a very important question, because God has blessed us to be in relationship with so many people of a variety of ages and life circumstances, and it's our privilege to speak belief into people, and so maybe I'll just yeah, go ahead, go ahead. Are you going to say?

Speaker 2: 3:54

something no, I mean sports is amazing, for that. And I'm an athlete too, still call myself an athlete. Do you still call yourself an athlete, vanessa?

Speaker 3: 4:03

Absolutely. After college basketball I did competitive triathlons for years and very much an athlete I call myself an adult athlete and then, after kids, I thought I need to be a little bit more efficient. So I got into lift and heavier weights and I mean, look, I'm not an Olympic weight lifter, but I'm a lift and heavier weights and I run and so yeah, watch out I might be a yogi in my 50s and 60s. We'll see what happens.

Speaker 2: 4:28

Let's go, let's go yeah, so I love that Shout out to those coaches who cast vision for young people's lives. I'm getting to do that right now on the football field, staying connected even in the offseason to players, and it's a beautiful thing to see a young person just light up when someone says you're a natural encourager, a connector, and you point us. You have vision, you have vision for the future. You point us as a team to where we need to go. So I need you to bring it. And then that call to action right, what a cool, cool call to action. So, yeah, go on. Other stories of folks that kind of shaped your leadership journey.

Speaker 3: 5:01

Yeah, so my husband. So I met Brandon, my husband's Brandon. I met him when I was 19. I became a Christian in the dorms at Concordia in Texas and transferred to Concordia in Nebraska. I know we share that journey as well being loved.

Speaker 3: 5:16

Finished playing out basketball there and studied theology and went through the director of Christian Education Program, and so when I met Brandon and began dating him, he quickly saw what he was getting into. So I just like to show up as who I am to really any settings. And he wasn't nervous, he wasn't intimidated, I wasn't too much for him and he's a strong leader himself. And so just as we began to date and get even more serious, he spoke words of belief into my life. And now he didn't use these words, but what he was essentially saying is I want you to be my helper, not in this subservient kind of way, but in this God eyes, equal way and equal standing of Christ, in this uniqueness of marriage. And, vanessa again he didn't use these words, but essentially what he said embrace the duality of being a leader. Vanessa, you can be a helper and a leader and I love you for that and I want you to do that and I want to support you in that.

Speaker 2: 6:23

Wow. What a dude, what a dude I don't know the many dudes say that and just call that out of women who may have more and I'm not using this pejoratively at all but more aggressive leadership traits rather than maybe some of the passive traits. It takes a strong man to enter into that sort of relationship and say here's in my words what he's calling out, and this is very biblical from Genesis 2. He's saying I actually need you to be the kind adversary that Adam needed Eve to be.

Speaker 2: 7:02

I need you to come alongside me to see all of me and to love, but also challenge me and bring out the best in Team. Cipher Say more there.

Speaker 3: 7:12

Yeah, very well said. And to be clear, being a leader and embracing that duality does not mean I'm in charge all the time, does not mean I'm making all the decisions, but what it does mean is that I am called into acting in literally ways in Team Cipher, and we do that together, as we mutually submit to Christ.

Speaker 2: 7:36

Amen, yes, yes, ok, all right we can go down that.

Speaker 3: 7:40

Yeah, two more, two more quick stories. Yeah, you look like you got it up over there, tim.

Speaker 2: 7:46

You get me lit up, man. There's so many rabbit trails we could go down. But any other stories of folks? I know there's a Pastor Jake in your story as well. Yeah, there is.

Speaker 3: 7:54

So two quick stories. There is one before the Pastor Jake story and this is the quick Boyd story. So I've served at the church. I still serve the church. There was a little stint when I served the church in a deployed role and so Boyd was my boss at a local leadership development firm. And Boyd saw my backstory as a leader in the church, not as a liability but not necessarily as an asset serving in marketplace leadership development, but he acknowledged it right. So Boyd is a Christian himself and he kind of spoke leadership into me in this very specific way.

Speaker 3: 8:32

Vanessa, you've had long experiences as a leader. You've studied leadership theory, you're a scholar, you've been a coach. Now, as you work in this firm with me as your boss, vanessa, you are a leader of leaders and so to that point I had seen myself as a leader in the context where God has placed me, sometimes in that second chair leader role and in other times in other circumstances. It may be more prominent role, depending on the situation, but it really was at that point when Boyd spoke into me. Vanessa, you are a leader of leaders. This was a decade ago. Something shifted for me. It really opened up an opportunity for me to see leaders as peers and colleagues in different ways, with an invitation to set the table for their own growth.

Speaker 2: 9:23

Wow. So I've been challenged because I have more of an egalitarian view of leadership and it's more based sociologically because of my team background. It takes all kinds. But unless we get to that and I don't care if it's a female leader, male leader, whatever unless we have someone who invites us up to being that equal with other leaders, we're probably not going to be able to appropriately challenge maybe a system or leadership behaviors, because we're always going to see ourselves as less than so. He kind of called you up sociologically and kind of allowed you to just okay, get that courage that's necessary for speaking the truth to leaders that are in powerful positions. Powerful positions Is that fair?

Speaker 3: 10:16

That's fair, and I'll just quickly add on to that to say, tim, it wasn't smooth and easy because my church experiences didn't necessarily draw that out or foster that to me. So what I'm not saying is I had toxic experiences and I was paralyzed, but it was maybe untapped as a better way to articulate that. And so I remember having conversations with Boyd where I think he was kind of like what's holding you back?

Speaker 3: 10:38

And I remember he even said to me Vanessa, in the morning you put your pants on the exact same way I do. Get out there and leave.

Speaker 2: 10:48

There we go.

Speaker 3: 10:49

Yeah, so the last story would be Pastor Jake, and so, simply put, what Pastor Jake spoke into me is Vanessa, you are a leader of leaders in God's church. Yeah, so I've been friends with Jake and his family for over a decade and I remember standing in his kitchen with his wife my rostering was just kind of on hold as I completed my dissertation and I remember saying Jake I don't know if there's a place for me positionally on the roster, based on where I sense God is leading me and just he lovingly convinced me to be patient and wait as the spirit continued to show opportunities and he just continued to speak into me that you're a leader in God's church. And so, yeah, those are. Those are some quick stories of formative experiences of people speaking leader, literally behaviors into my life.

Speaker 2: 11:48

Man. Am I glad for Pastor Jay? Well, for all of all of the men, your coach, who spoke words of joy and care and connection, because we need you as a part of the leadership development journey in the Lutheran Church Missouri Senate. We really, really do. I'm grateful. I'm grateful you're a part of this church body as we wrestle, as we go on this journey to steward not just resources but people very, very well, and praise be to God that in your environments you have, the Lord has stewarded your gifts very, very well. So I didn't in the intro I didn't talk about kind of the role that you're playing in the Nebraska district now and how you can fast forward a little bit in your story to how the Lord is allowing you to be a leader of leaders in the church and specifically even working with pastors and teams of pastors. It's very exciting. So how do you serve in the Nebraska district right now?

Speaker 3: 12:42

Yeah, so maybe we could just quickly start with logistically. How does it look? So I'm called. I'm called to Calvary Lutheran Church in Lincoln. My rostering is as a director of Christian education.

Speaker 3: 12:53

One of my brothers in Christ, who has served with a number of DCs over the years, articulates it this way Vanessa, instead of being a DC for a church, vanessa, you're a DC for pastors and you're a DC for a church body, guiding us and leading us into how adult education impacts, how God forms people. And so the local congregation I serve sends me so I kind of like to call myself a little bit of a free agent, if you will who's rooted in Nebraska. Tim, being rooted in relationship is critical. I'm not that person that just flies around the country and speaks only and talks theory only. As a scholar, practitioner, being in the practical application of this is incredibly important to me, while at the same time advocating for these important practices nationally, synodically, and so really, in Nebraska, it shakes out this way very practically. In my local parish, where I am deployed, I am on the adult Bible study rotation with my pastor, and so for me, adult education isn't just about the pastor or the church worker, it's about everyday Christians and how God shapes people, and so what a joy to be in on that rotation. I love that and I know I've used the term scholar practitioner several times.

Speaker 3: 14:13

The scholarship that I kind of reside in is this intersection of church leadership, christian formation, leadership studies and adult education. So I like to say I serve the Nebraska district kind of like a college professor who doesn't grade and leans into the scholarship around how adults learn to actually create learning environments, for pastors in particular, but really I could for any person and so Nebraska is my community practice. The primary service in my portfolio here in Nebraska is called Leadership Learning Communities. I'm really excited about this initiative, tim. We're in year seven. We're pushing 25% of our rostered pastors being alumni. So for the past seven years yeah, what? So?

Speaker 1: 15:03

what.

Speaker 3: 15:03

Leadership Learning Communities is is customized peer group learning that also includes one-on-one coaching, and so at this point we've been very intentional, not as this, like you know, exclusive sectarian thing, but we've been trying to get traction around offering this particular initiative to pastors because of the unique position in which they serve others as first chair leaders. They have great impact in leading people in their local context and so, systemically, we really want to invest in this population very intentionally because of the ways in which the Holy Spirit ripples out their own individual growth journey and so I'll kind of pause.

Speaker 3: 15:41

right there. I shared a lot. Those are some of the brief ways that I serve in Nebraska and then maybe in a minute we can talk about how that ripples out beyond the Nebraska context.

Speaker 2: 15:51

Well, yeah, you're an anomaly as a district to set up and I'm an amazing district here in Pacific Southwest District, so this is not against that. We're working really hard to set up similar kind of coaching relationships and learning, adult learning communities. And you guys, it feels like you're just maybe a season ahead of where we are systemically. But talk about how open pastors are toward going on that kind of learning journey and what are some of and you're not in sales by any stretch, but what are the winsome ways that you communicate Like. This is going to be really, really powerful for your journey, because in my experience, my doctorate was in the traits and characteristics of pastors who collaborate in mission and I actually looked around for stories. I told a little bit of your story.

Speaker 2: 16:41

Michigan District has a little bit of a story as well, but the stories of pastors and circuits collaborating together intentionally to multiply disciples, to start new communities, to just care and pray for one another, to see one another as equals, to respect one another's diverse contexts that doesn't happen very often, very naturally, and it's in the it's not in the Constitution, but it's in the bylaws of Synod that we should focus on circuit forums, circuit convocations, these gatherings that actually include lay leaders, diverse voices from our respective parishes, to care for us and it just, it just doesn't happen. And one of the biggest kind of conclusions in my doctorate was was all around formation. Yeah, we haven't trained circuit visitors to see themselves as a leader in mission, a circuit leader in mission.

Speaker 2: 17:40

And unfortunately and this is what I I looked at as well in my learning unfortunately, sometimes the most passive pastor ends up being that circuit visitor and I think, subconsciously, a lot of times we elect them whoever shows up to that. You know, every three year gathering, which often isn't the entire circuit, we elect them because, well, maybe they won't give me a hard time and they're a piece, they're a peacemaker, and so, yeah, there's, there's a lot, there's a lot there. All that to say. I'm grateful that 20, I mean that is a high number of rostered workers going through your leadership learning communities. So what is and I'm okay, I know I'm asking you to get into sales what is the pitch? Yeah, you get that many?

Speaker 2: 18:20

Yeah, what's the pitch?

Speaker 3: 18:21

for that. Yeah, so yeah, we're pushing 25% of pastors, and so I'd love to just kind of quickly react by two points. The first point is what I'm noticing here, tim, this this is not like gospel truth, this would be replicated everywhere but what I'm seeing here is reform. Reformation within circuits probably has a far, far higher chance of happening whenever you can invite people who are circuit participants to opt into practicing ways of showing up to one another that are conducive for formation and growth and thus really just speaking Holy Spirit truth into them and say awesome, I see that in you and now you're living that everywhere you go. And so they show up to the circuits differently.

Speaker 3: 19:09

And so you know, while there's been some attempts here in Nebraska to focus on more intentional circuit visitor training and approaches, and while those are all well and good and they have their space as an outsider, as like an organizational lawyer walking with my brothers and watching, I think, tim, the reformation in the circuits is really happening when people are opting into some sidebar growth opportunities that aren't in competition of the circuit and aren't downplaying the circuit, but they're saying this is here for this very unique and distinct purpose of gathering, to grow without grades and be in Christian community and practice what is most relevant, emerging from the peer group and emerging from the coaching.

Speaker 3: 19:51

And God blesses that, because God powers that, he drives that, and so that person then goes into the circuit setting a different person as they go into their home as a different person, into their churches as a different person, into their communities as a different person. And so I'm really hopeful for how God continues to bring reformation to circuits. I think that we might need to look at different ways of infusing a life into those circuits.

Speaker 2: 20:17

Again, you and I get good on a lot of bunny trails.

Speaker 3: 20:18

So there's my first bunny trail to answer your question.

Speaker 2: 20:21

Can I respond to that? So what you've basically done is what I would say any leader in the parish setting who enters into a congregation where there is a need for transformation let's just put it that way right, there's some room for growth. You normally, instead of we, should be better. It's a law based approach. Maybe we could just start a new thing, a new community that some a small minority, but some are going to take part in and that changes the community. It's the new thing. New wine, new wineskins right, it's a new thing that the Holy Spirit wants to do in a new season. That then changes in some way the whole system. It changes how people then enter into the circuit, enter into the congregation. So I just applied that approach, I agree with that approach and, yeah, maybe we should be doing. I'll just make this general statement in the LCMS we should have more courage as leaders, executives, et cetera, to just start new things and invite the willing to opt into those new things and over time that can change our system.

Speaker 3: 21:35

So is that about what you've done? Yep, it's changing Nebraska. Praise God, it really is.

Speaker 2: 21:41

Praise God. All right Next point.

Speaker 3: 21:43

Yeah. So to answer your question more specifically, how 25% Tim it really flows from relationship. It just does right.

Speaker 3: 21:52

It's not. Oh, let me communicate division. Let me create a postcard. Let me tell you how you're deficient and let me tell you how this thing can fix and solve and make everything good. Yeah, that approach doesn't work. It doesn't work.

Speaker 3: 22:08

So, really, what's worked here is that I was working in the marketplace just fine, well and good and our district president, rich Snow, through Pastor Jake, we all came into contact because Rich was new to his role and he wanted to talk about pastoral leadership development, wanted to talk about formation, wanted to talk about coaching, and he quickly realized, through a series of conversations, as any good leader would I commend DP Snow for this he said Vanessa, originally I came in wanting to talk to you about what you could do for the people that I'm in charge of leading and guiding, but I realized it needs to start with me. Vanessa, will you be my executive coach? And so I like to say we're getting such great traction here because it began with Rich's vision of being that strong, capable leader, of opening himself up to that experience, first and foremost, knowing that he, in good conscience could not invite his brother pastors into a same journey that he is not willing to walk himself.

Speaker 2: 23:56

Man shout out to DP Snow man, You're the man, dude, I got to hang out with your district president. I've hung out with him a handful of times and I'm amazed by his candor, humility, authenticity and just wanting to humbly serve. And, as any good leader knows, you can't take people someplace you haven't been.

Speaker 2: 24:20

And so you have to model it. The reason I smirk about the going back to the early point you made around relationship, those that have the traits like I do in terms of vision casting and ra-ra, galvanizing this kind of thing, my default from time to time and I have to have wise guides alongside can be well, I said it, let's go. You know, I don't know, I'm not like from a top down kind of look, but like we agree on this. Whatever this may be, let's go.

Speaker 2: 24:54

But I realized then, a step back. Have we created the team that's safe to dream? Have we can trade it? Have we developed teams of teams of people who gather this dream and then apply it in their own, using their own vernacular, for the sake of, for the sake of their mission? Their kind of hearts cry. And then I'm like, well, maybe we've got work to do there and that's a constant. That's a constant for me, because the world I'm always changing and gosh you talk about like we're not gonna get into adaptive change in this conversation, but there's so much going on outside of me and within me that I need people to call me back to the simplicity of relationship in disciple making and disciple multiplying.

Speaker 3: 25:38

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 25:39

And, it seems, for a guy like me.

Speaker 2: 25:41

It seems so like it takes a while, you know.

Speaker 1: 25:46

Tell me it's a slow burn. It's a slow burn.

Speaker 2: 25:49

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 25:50

But it's so good. Yeah, and so the Jesus went. Jake and Rich are still very much a part of leadership community leadership, learning communities, so we're launching two new cohorts in the fall, and so they don't sit through every session, but they're not like oh, we're the funders, have fun, let us know how it goes. I think they're investing in these relationships, and so what it's also doing to them is it's fostering a different connection between the pastors in our district and their district staff. They see them in such different ways, which is really lovely to watch from that leadership vantage point where I sit, and so, yeah, they're prioritizing this deeper form of leadership development. We're also experimenting with other forms of leadership development that have greater intention, with a little bit less of a commitment. But, yeah, that's that.

Speaker 2: 26:37

I love it. I love it. So how are you serving in the broader context beyond the Nebraska district?

Speaker 1: 26:42

Yeah, so Wow.

Speaker 2: 26:43

I understand that heart cry too of man. I gotta stay local. I gotta stay local and engaged right, so go ahead.

Speaker 3: 26:49

Yeah, so I serve a sentence, deploy call, like I mentioned. And so I even remember sitting with Jacob a decade ago and there was these images on my ministry description of these concentric circles, and it wasn't this like prestige worldwide, we're going global. So not like that kind of thing, but instead it's like what about this vision of really committing to the local expression so much and so consistently that then we couldn't help but want to create conversation with people doing similar things in their own context, whether that's regionally or nationally. And so really we're at that point now I'm pushing a decade of this slow burn right now, and so what began with the vision that moved into theory and to practice, into a local community, then towards district staff, then to area pastors, has now rippled into different changes in conversations, and so I'm beginning to walk with other districts who are wanting to get more intentional about how they're setting tables for God to continue shaping and forming church workers in their own area. And so, like this isn't sales in terms of like, oh, I'm packaging up LLC and now everybody's going to do this. I'm a leadership development boutique. So I'm, by design, not scaling to him, because that takes me away from the front lines right, and I want to be taken away from the front lines.

Speaker 3: 28:07

My call is to walk with, to be a leader of leaders and to walk with pastors in a local context, and so it's been really fun starting those conversations with districts, and I also do customized growth environments that are remote for very select populations. So, like right now, I think a project in the making that I'm really excited about is there's a group of church planters who are connected with a very healthy district in our Senate, who have been deeply shaped and formed by church planter mentor coaching, which is incredibly important and vital, and they're finding that they're at this point, and their leadership journey being five to seven years out, where they're asking significant questions like what does it look like to build systems and structures that take us into this next season of life as a church, beyond those early church planting years, while staying true to our unique culture? And so, being a leadership development boutique that curates content that people need, I'm positioned to be able to put the right resources in front of this group of church planners, while offering an incredibly customized environment to explore individually their unique application and practice of said content that honors their unique local context. And so, yeah, those are some fun things that I get to be a part of beyond the Nebraska districts.

Speaker 3: 29:28

And yeah, pause there.

Speaker 2: 29:31

Man, the church planning journey, that question getting to be that's a holy moment, getting to be at the table with a church that is the Lord, is granting some growth and then a lot of the. I know the traits of a lot of pastors who are church planners. It's so highly relational, yes, and so they don't naturally think about system and structure and things like that, which obviously necessitates them probably building a team of people who are around them that can set so they can forget, if you will those, so they can remain boots in the ground caring for relationally caring for people.

Speaker 2: 30:09

So that's awesome If you would. I'm just curious go down the rabbit trail just a little further. At what stage are a lot of those types of churches? And the reason I'm asking this is I think I've spoken a lot about some of our smaller churches that they're in need of revitalization as well as the need for church planning, and if some of those revitalized congregations can have a critical mass of folks that really view themselves maybe as a reboot church plant, that could be helpful as well. So what are the some of the characteristics of pastors and churches when they start to think system and structure on their growth journey? You mentioned, like maybe three to five years down the line or something like that is when, if they're growing, they need to start thinking systems and structure. Can you just go a little bit deeper into what they actually are needing as they start to grow?

Speaker 3: 30:58

Yeah, yeah, so like, maybe I'll just share a little bit about this particular group of leaders, as I've spent some time connecting with just one of the leaders in the group, but it's this, you don't want to all just timestamp it. I mean, their unique journey of this group of four is it's five to seven years out. A person might start experiencing this at year three, maybe even or further down in that year seven. I mean, there's a lot of variables at play. But some things to consider are like the sociology of numbers, right. So how many people are in the mix? And this kind of tipping point and this realization of a need to move from, like, galvanizing and gathering to mobilizing for mission.

Speaker 3: 31:42

And what I don't want to say is we shouldn't be mobilizing for mission on the front end. That should be an imperative, that's biblical, that's a call all the time, right, by virtue of our baptism, god has given us these spiritual gifts to be used and shared to the building up His kingdom everywhere we go, regardless of how many people are in the mix. But I think sometimes, as leaders who are leading people, there's just this kind of tipping point of numbers when it starts becoming more of a pain point, this realization of wow. We're like the keeper of the code here and we need to just be releasing a little bit more, and so there's so much that could be said there, but those are some of my quick responses to your question.

Speaker 2: 32:23

Well, I mean, it's what land, that plane, it's what Jesus did. He walked through that journey with the three to the 12, to the 70, to actually needing to set himself you know, this is in very earthy terms but set himself apart. I think that's the power of not just his resurrection but his ascension, so that the Holy Spirit could come and then the mission could be deployed. As a lot of these communities they start to think oh wow, jesus had a closer circle, he had a wider kind of executive leadership team, if you will.

Speaker 2: 32:56

And then, and then he released them in due time. So yeah, beautiful, beautiful, let's, let's come down and come down the homestretch. Let's talk about your experience presenting to the faculty at Concordia Seminary in St Louis. Go, preachers. I'm an alma mater as well and getting ready actually to go back in a month to be a part of the alumni basketball game Vanessa played with the team.

Speaker 3: 33:20

Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 1: 33:22

Yeah yeah, yeah so we're building a gym.

Speaker 2: 33:24

Our gym is opening up here. Next time you're in town, you're going to come and shoot some hoops with me. We'll play horse or something. It'll be super fun and yeah, so getting getting ready to go back there in a month or so. But you got the privilege to go and talk about dualities in adult learning with them. Just talk about that experience and and what you shared.

Speaker 3: 33:44

Yeah, so it really was an honor to connect with the Concordia Seminary St Louis faculty. I, about a year and a year or so ago, got to know one of the faculty and we had a series of conversations around the work that's happening here in Nebraska. He asked me to submit a proposal to share a scholar practitioner approach with the faculty and so I said, sure, I'll submit a proposal and was invited and was really grateful that my DP, rich Snow, was able to join me remotely for that. He was at the Council of Presidents meeting at the time in your district. They were, I think they were meeting that Concordia. Yeah, there you go. And so I was in St Louis in person. But it was great fun to co-present with Rich.

Speaker 3: 34:31

And so essentially, the intention some of that presentation was to stimulate some critical thinking about the intersection of adult learning theory and pastoral formation, really in any context.

Speaker 3: 34:44

But, as I showed the case study, it was the context here, sure, but the intention was to connect the data to real world pastor scenarios.

Speaker 3: 34:54

And so, as a scholar, it was an honor because here you are, you know, in the Academy of people who devote their lives to scholarship and formation of pastors in that setting. So it was an honor. As a practitioner, it was a joy to be able to move from the scholarship to the practice of it in the real world and sharing what that looks like in one, just one local expression to then create some conversation around it. And I would say it was also joy because the pastors that I walk with have been deeply impacted by both of our seminaries and to be able to spend time was a little bit of a full circle moment for me and just this kind of like realization of just like God calls us and invites us to life long growth with him. The same is true for his undershepards, really for all people. Right, that pastoral formation is cradle to grave until we're with Jesus, and so what a joy to even be at that intersection at that moment.

Speaker 2: 35:55

Yeah, so yeah, that's so. So good, talk about what you shared a little bit and you can go. I'll give you the open hand. You can choose one of these two. You can talk about the six qualities of adult learning theory and we can wrap it up kind of going at a very surface level with that. Or you can talk about the three dualities of pastoral formation conviction and curiosity, individual versus community, and content and coaching. I'll throw it out there. I would. I would like to talk about the dualities. I think there's a lot to be said around the three dualities of pastoral formation.

Speaker 3: 36:28

So but you, can, let's go there. But let me just say like three sentences about adult learning to set the place up, that's okay.

Speaker 2: 36:36

Go ahead Okay.

Speaker 3: 36:37

When I talk about adult learning theory, most of the time people are not like whoa, that is so earth shattering. That seems like such a stretch, but the reality is we're not practicing it. It's really hard to replicate something you haven't experienced. Tim, we have a very systemic issue in in our churches of not honoring how adults experience learning, change and growth and how we set the table for all people, including Pastors. We've got to disrupt how we're setting the table for growth environments.

Speaker 2: 37:10

Okay, yes, I think, I think that's true. So what needs to change? To honor adults on their learning journey and you can go into the six qualities of adult learning theory if you'd like.

Speaker 3: 37:23

Yeah, we just need to change.

Speaker 3: 37:28

Oh man, what needs to change? Well, so let me let me just start by saying there's levels of learning, this levels of growth, there's levels of, you know, development, and so sometimes leaders want just top results, deep growth, transformation, and so I tend to like make these levels and value assessments of how people grow. I certainly want, don't want to do that, and so maybe something helpful that I can offer is, I think, a helpful thing to start practicing which would bring change, is getting really clear on how we would like to see people experience learning, change and growth. Okay, and so I want to introduce listeners to the Kirk Patrick model. Just type any search engine Kirk Patrick model. This is an international tool that helps leaders evaluate and analyze leadership development and training strategies, and those quick four levels are reaction is at the bottom, learning, behavior and results. Oftentimes we want adult learning to primarily focus on these deep systemic results, these deep personal results, but we're simply setting the table for reaction moments. We're just setting the table for reaction moments.

Speaker 2: 38:51

That's a new phrase for me. Reaction moment to find that.

Speaker 3: 38:54

Okay, you know I've had a series of conversations. You and I are primed, we are all in on this conversation. Somebody just listening to this who's had no context, maybe, with this podcast the themes in the podcast, leadership themes they might walk away from this conversation and say, oh wow, the there's some pastors out there who are really leaning into the body of Christ to be in collaborative leadership. That's cool, right, yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:26

We praise God for that.

Speaker 3: 39:27

Great, that's. That's a reaction.

Speaker 1: 39:31

Cool and here's a different reaction.

Speaker 3: 39:34

If we want to see results, we cannot just talk at people. I'm talking about even the holiest of holy proclamation. That has its place, that needs its place If we want people to practice different things and to walk through this journey of making meaning of the challenge, the difficulty, the joy, the myriad of thoughts and emotions on this baptismal journey we call life. That is interactive, that is other person driven. If we want to see results, we cannot just talk in lecture alone.

Speaker 2: 40:12

There has to be community, deep and abiding community. And I, going back to the seminary, like that's one of the main reasons we're not gonna get into the debate around different models for formation on this podcast necessarily. But I mean one of the biggest cases for pastoral formation residential is the deep and abiding relationships that are tethered to the content.

Speaker 2: 40:40

I mean you've heard that right and if we right, that's why we want, why we want some may say the primary way would be residential and it is all about those relationships, but I like how.

Speaker 2: 40:54

Maybe where some of our struggle is today is around learning. You can learn, but then on this journey from reaction to learning to behaviors and then results, there can be a disconnect unless there's deep community between content and then the carrying out of ministry. And I've said, for gosh, a number of years I've been a pastor, now pushing 16 years it would be wonderful if there were more learners and vickers who were under covering of a pastor or a group of more experienced pastors for a longer period of time, maybe even before ordination takes place. Why? Because, then, not just around content, but the execution, the behaviors that are needed to immerse yourself, embed yourself into a community and not go in like a bull in a china shop or not fall off one of the two continuums I would say of being overly, overly passive or overly aggressive and dictatorial that walking that middle way. I think we need a longer journey of formation between learning and behaviors. Any kind of comment there?

Speaker 3: 42:09

Yeah, and I say it just keeps going.

Speaker 2: 42:12

Yeah, I think in a sidebar conversation.

Speaker 3: 42:14

I even told you, tim, you can count on my voice of being an advocate for a lifelong Christian formation for any person, and also including the under shepherd right, that while I don't have that systematic theological, exegetical lens of that component of pastoral formation, there are other components of pastoral formation that I've been invited to speak into and to sit at the table for and to offer with that daughter of the King lens of theology right.

Speaker 3: 42:49

And so it doesn't stop after ordination, it just continues on. And so, whether we call it the covering of more experienced pastors and leaders, guiding that pastor towards ordination, the same happens, tim, in a community of Christ, of brother pastors as they walk together, even inviting in a sister in Christ to set the table for them, to curate the content, to make it applicable, to invite them into articulating what it is that they have a sense that they would like God to grow them into and to guide them. It just it doesn't stop that's what I would add to it is until we are all with Jesus. It's this great mystery I heard the great theologian John Kleinek say this duality that we are enough in Christ and God wants to continue growing us. It's a mystery and it's true.

Speaker 2: 43:46

Well, yeah, it's just the best is to recognize I lied up. I lied up over learning new things and I sometimes lament that some of not just pastors but just people there are so many. This is where we'll kind of close this conversation. There are so many assaults and I would say it's a spiritual assault that keeps us from experiencing out of the identity piece of you are, and this is something that we need to hear and learn, be embedded. You are my beloved, my beloved daughter, my beloved son. I'm proud of you, I rejoice over you, I smile over you. I can't hear that. I can't hear that enough.

Speaker 2: 44:31

And then out of that I get to follow the King of the universe, jesus, the crucified and risen, one whose spirit lives, makes me, abides within me and is calling me. This is discipleship, right. I mean he's calling me into all of these new experiences with new people, and it's not just it's books, but I'm learning more about myself, my gifts and my gaps. And then I'm looking at other people and how we can work together and the Holy Spirit's like the divine connector, right my gifts to the gifts of others, like it's just the best way to live life rather than the distraction of the phone or getting sucked into Netflix or just kind of I lament that sometimes, you know we it feels like some people are just barely making it, you know in light of eternity, vanessa, in light of eternity, the growth that's gonna happen between now and then, the people that I get in light of knowing even when I die, I don't die.

Speaker 2: 45:31

I live in Christ like it's just, it's all gravy, man, like the world is so beautiful. There's so much pain, but I think a lot of times, unless we and this I'd love to get your closing reaction unless we're tethered to people who call us up, you know, set your mind where Christ is. He reigns overall and you reign right now with him. I need to hear that from other people, because I'm gonna get called down into the muck, into the yuck over and over again, and Satan wants to keep me and us there, and just as consumers rather than contributors. Any final words of wisdom to the life which is truly life, which is in Christ.

Speaker 3: 46:12

Yeah, I think something that I'm really enjoying seeing not to, you know, unpack a quick another theoretical model here, but diffusion of innovation theory kind of talks about how ideas and practices are adopted. You know, you've got your pioneers, your early adopters, your middle of the roads, your laggers and your resistors. So the reason I'm bringing that up in response to what you're saying is, as we first started this, I would say that early adopters were the ones that were jumping on the train first. But what's really fun is to see that spectrum of openness kind of trickle in Nebraska and the ways in which the body of Christ amongst this group of pastors is encouraging a sense of openness so that God can care for this duality of the individual and the community together, because our natural human tendency is to wanna resist disruption. Right, we want to be safe, we don't wanna be disrupted, and so we need people to push us into that healthy, holy spirit-driven openness of love and care and correction as God forms us, and we're gonna be far more willing to do that in community than we are alone, right, yeah, and so we need each other and there has been some competing factors like fear, like apprehension, like not enoughness, like factional being and things like that.

Speaker 3: 47:47

Sometimes I think it can help a little that I'm actually I'm not a pastor, right, and so I don't think I bring some of that out. And what's really fun to see is it's hard to otherwise another person when you know them, and so the pre-rec of being a participant in leadership learning communities is are you open for God to grow you? And it turns out that along the wide spectrum of religious imagination to borrow a Ninian smart term for those sociology of religion, people that as we're all tethered into the confessions and the scriptures rooted in Christ, we've got a variety of expressions we really can be together and we can grow together, and it's really in those moments that we realize we do have more in common than we thought.

Speaker 2: 48:38

Yep, wow, this has been so much fun. Vanessa, there's a deep spot in my soul that deeply agrees with what you just said and then what we in every conversation I've had with you. It's just true, and I'm glad you're a leader of leaders. I affirm God's call upon your life to be a leader of leaders and a leader of pastors. We need your voice. We're better with you as a scholar, practitioner who has many leaderly characteristics, and you're modeling that in community, and I can't wait what you're just talking about right there. I can't wait for our next conversation in the coming months on adaptive change, because I think there's a lot more to be said there. As we as a church body seek to grow more and more up into Jesus, who is our head. We've got all the goods, man. Our theology is locked tight. Let's work on those relationships, especially with those who are different than us in our respective contexts. Thank you so much, Vanessa. If people wanna connect with you, how can they do so?

Speaker 3: 49:46

Yeah, so I'm not on social media, but you can contact me through my website, vanessacyfertcom, and there's an email feature through there, or you could just email me directly at Vanessa at VanessaCyfertcom. I'd be happy to create some conversation with you, and Tim has been a joy connecting with you. I thank you for the son of the king that you are and how that flows into all areas of your life, and for sharing and for caring and for leading us. Thank you, tim.

Speaker 2: 50:18

No. Praise God. Praise God. That's Vanessa Cyfert with IEI, so it's S-E-I-F-E-R-F-E-R-T. It's a good day. Go make it a great day. If this content blessed you, we would be honored If you would comment, like, subscribe wherever it is you take in podcasts, and we promise to have invigorating, jesus-filled conversations with leaders like Vanessa in the coming weeks. It's a good day. Jesus loves you. Peace of the Lord. Go with you, vanessa. Thank you, thank you.

Speaker 1: 50:44

You've been listening to Leetime, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collector. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel and go to theunitel leadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.