Lead Time
Lead Time
Jesus Never Feared a Tough Conversation (And Neither Should the LCMS)
Attorney Kurth Brashear doesn't shy away from addressing the challenging governance issues facing the Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod today. Drawing from his extensive experience in both church leadership and legal practice, he offers a candid assessment of how the church's governance structures sometimes hinder rather than help our shared mission.
• Developing a heart for church mission comes from understanding that God wants all people to be saved
• The "clearinghouse concept" facilitates sharing of synodical resolutions across districts to improve communication
• Prior approval process lacks transparency, leading to mistrust and uncertainty within church leadership
• Many church leaders fear speaking openly about opportunities for improvement due to potential repercussions
• Term limits for synodical officers would remind us that no one is irreplaceable in God's mission
• Current electoral system gives equal weight to congregations regardless of size, creating representation imbalances
• Commissioned ministers' voices need greater recognition in church governance and decision-making
• Primary focus should remain on the 98% we agree on rather than the 2% where we differ
• Healthy organizations handle difficult conversations well rather than avoiding them
God, doubt, and proof walk into a podcast... it goes better than you’d expect!
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Speaker 2:Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman here. Jack Calberg is still away on vacation Today. I pray. The joy of Jesus is your strength. As I get to talk with Kurth A Brashear, let me tell you about him. He's a partner at Rembolt. Ludkey, ludkey, how am I saying?
Speaker 3:that right, ludkey, ludkey, ludkey.
Speaker 2:There we go, llp. He is an attorney Ernie multi-practice law firm with offices in Lincoln and Seward. Shout out to Concordia, nebraska Go Bulldogs. His practice is focused on estate planning, nonprofit and exempt organizations, political subdivisions, municipalities Wow and corporate and commercial law. During his nearly 30 years in the legal field, kurth has served as legal counsel for multiple religious organizations and charities and regularly presents on legal issues facing ministries. That leads us in the direction we're going today. Prior to joining Rumble, kurth was the VP for Institutional Advancement at Concordia University, nebraska, where he oversaw fundraising, alumni relations, church relations and community relations for the university. During his tenure, generous supporters partnered with the university to achieve numerous fundraising successes. You were in advancement development, praise God. He also served as the university's first general counsel, so I'm just going to pause right there. Kurth, what does that mean that you were a general counsel for Concordia, nebraska?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so that means I was the in-house attorney.
Speaker 2:Legal attorney Legal attorney yes so beautiful.
Speaker 2:So he's a lifelong member of the LCMS. He's a member at St John Lutheran Church in Seward. That's where I worshipped in my four years there as a bulldog. He serves as an elder. He's concluding his service on wow, the Constitution and Handbook Committee of the Nebraska District of the LCMS, and he sits on the board of directors for the Lutheran Ministry Foundation and he's previously served as a congregational president, district convention delegate Thank you for doing that District convention parliamentarian and attended several synodical conventions. He's got a Bachelor of Arts in English and History at Valpo and he's got a jurist doctor. I'm always learning new things. What is a jurist doctor? Is that a legal thing as well, kurt?
Speaker 3:It just means you're a lawyer. You've graduated from a law school.
Speaker 2:I'm learning new things all the time. So he's married to his wife. Jessica is a school counselor and he has a daughter who is a director of Christian education. And yeah, oh, she is your wife.
Speaker 3:Jessica, my father-in-law was a DCE, so yeah, how old are your kids?
Speaker 2:You have three kids.
Speaker 3:One's going to be 17 coming up, another one who's just turned 13. And then a 10-year-old who's got a birthday next month.
Speaker 2:Hey, all right. So in the thick of it, you are right in the thick of it. You are right in the thick of it, bro. Right with me, I got three high schoolers. So we we are. We need all the prayers we can receive as we're raising up these sweet little ones. So let's get into why we're talking today. How did you develop a heart to help LCMS voters in particular be informed about Senate opportunities for growth? Tell that story, Kurt.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this might be a little broader than one wants, but I, you know, tim, and I appreciate the invitation to be with you today. So I'm a lifelong member of Missouri Synod congregations, baptized in the church. Pacific Hills Lutheran in Omaha, congregation I grew up in, went to Lutheran grade school in Omaha. St Paul Lutheran went to Lutheran grade school in Omaha. St Paul Lutheran went to Valparaiso University, you know, came back and joined another LCMS congregation, beautiful Savior in La Vista. And so I, you know, at marrying a daughter, my wife being the daughter of a DCE, I would say I'm just Lutheran, right and in it and thankful for that. Parents who modeled the faith, took us to church, cared about school, cared about our growing, all the things, but it was really as an adult and a couple, three things I would say really kind of lead to this, of this idea of the passion for the mission, not just my own faith life, but what do we do as the church? One of those was I was invited, thankfully, to be on the Board of Directors for Concordia Foundation, for your alma mater's foundation, and it was interesting.
Speaker 3:That was when I was practicing law in Omaha and it was just interesting to me to see how so many discussions about what was going on in Seward at some point involved the words church workers and non-church workers and enrollment, recruitment, right, what is Concordia there to prepare them for? And I've never been a big fan of defining people by what they aren't, and for me it really came down to why can't it be both? And some of this comes probably from going to Valpo, where that was the first time in my life that I what kind of Lutheran are you? Are you LCMS or are you ELCA? Right? And those were questions I didn't deal with in Omaha. That was a Catholic town and you were just a Lutheran.
Speaker 3:So for my experience, and the reason I started supporting your alma mater, even though I didn't go there, was because it is such a clear witness of who Christ is. And it's preparing church workers, yes, but preparing laity to also serve and witness in the vocations God's called them to, like me, and I thought that was really important. There needs to be a focus on the fact that all these vocations are given to us by God. It's what you know. Who's writing our check, who's paying us, is the difference. So that was one just as a premise.
Speaker 2:The second was Can we stop right there, kurt? I just have to double down on that. I am doing every because language matters, you're in law, language matters, you get paid by the minute. You were just saying you know on the words you use.
Speaker 2:So if we could, if we could be sensitive toward the fact of, if we say, professional church worker, that that's a loaded phrase that I think in some circles maybe lowers the mission, the multi-vocational mission of the everyday follower of Jesus who is sent out to make Jesus known in the marketplace based on the gifts that he's given. I think we're all the church. Some just happen to be paid to advance the mission of Jesus. So if we went to there's leaders all over the place, they're paid or non-paid by the church, and let's give elevated credence to those that are not paid to advance the mission.
Speaker 2:There was no economic engine that was set up to advance the cause of the early church. In the book of Acts they established that over time, to be sure, but early on everyone sent out non-paid. Go figure it out, you know. So anyway, I think the professional church worker, church worker, non-church worker, we're all the church, for goodness sake, and I think Concordia Nebraska does a great job at making that very, very evident in their mission. That's what I experienced. That was ingrained in me some 25 years ago going through undergrad. So praise be to God. Just had to double down on how true that is.
Speaker 3:No, I appreciate that and I agree, we're all church workers, the priesthood of all believers.
Speaker 3:It's just some of us are professionally trained to be that and some of us are doing it as a matter of our faith. But it's all important and I think one of the tensions that came out of those conversations was again, as I kind of said, it's always why do we have to choose? Let's do both, let's prepare both to go out and witness a member of Beautiful Savior and had great pastors there, keith Grimm most prominently, who really did a wonderful job with the congregation of talking about emphasizing when God calls you, are you prepared to follow, are you prepared to go where he might call you on the mission that he's going to give to you, as we've even just kind of talked about. Right, we all get different missions, as we were talking about before this, and so that was important to me. And then, finally, a dear friend, in terms of this passion for the mission of the church, because for me it really comes down to understanding better as a adult than I did as a child, that God wants all to be saved.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:And it's our job. He doesn't need us to, but it is our task to witness his son and what he did for them. And a man I respect greatly, a layman, once said to me, kurth, if we believe what we say, we believe about what happens to those who do not believe, we should be on fire for getting as many people introduced to Christ as possible. And so if you put for me, tim, if you put those three things together, it really comes out then to. So how do we as the church, both at the local level, but then as the Missouri Synod nationally, how do we do that work to witness, to give the Spirit the opportunity to work through us to have as many people saved as possible? And that's probably where my passion for the mission of the church at large comes from.
Speaker 2:So how did that passion for the mission lead you toward kind of the synodical? We're in convention season, right? Many of my brothers, you know, pastors and laymen and women have been serving at district conventions and we're heading into 2026. The synodical convention will be here in Phoenix in July. I think it was pretty cheap is why they're coming here in July.
Speaker 2:Nonetheless, good stewardship, praise God. So tell us about the Clearinghouse concept for district and synod resolutions, because there's a lot. I know a lot of pastors are like, oh my goodness, I've been to the last three synodical. That's like the least likely thing, and I've found the process kind of fascinating. Is there a room for growth? For sure, but it's a complex thing. A national church body with 35 districts, a lot of different contexts, right, and so we need some who can help us curate some of the best resolutions for us to continue to advance the mission of Jesus in the LCMS. So talk about your clearinghouse concept, kurt.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and if I can I'll go one step back. You're talking about. I mean, in my experience from being at Concordia and just in general, there are a lot of pastors who are talking about these issues. I mean the ordained ministers do. I think the problem is the laity doesn't and the laity's not involved in it. And that's my view, tim, is that our polity is set up so that the congregations have an equal vote with the ordained ministers right. But we have way too many congregations who have just kind of said, hey, whatever pastor says is good, you know, or we're not even going to get really involved in this because it's church politics and we need we need laity to be involved. But it is harder for laity who are doing their work nine to five during the week and others to say I don't know what this prior approval is about. In St Louis that seems like a synod thing and I'll leave it to them, and so part of it was an encouragement, one of I'd like to see congregations use their voice more to provide some balance to our system. So it's not just the pastors having input on these things, it is the congregations as well having input on these things. It is the congregations as well.
Speaker 3:The second part is just by nature of being non-hierarchical, in terms of at least how we're structured. You know, we end up with a bunch of congregations who are in their silo. They're in their mission field, they're doing their work, but they may not be paying attention to or even aware of what's going on, you know, in a district across the country or in a congregation even across town. And so the clearinghouse was at least my idea of having been blessed through my work at Concordia to get to know people across the Senate, across the nation, of at least saying to folks hey, let's have a place where people can bring up resolutions or ideas they might have and share those with others so there can be feedback.
Speaker 3:So maybe there are ideas that are presented in the Nebraska district and in Pacific Southwest and in the Atlantic and in Florida, georgia, because people are now aware, yeah, that's it, I just hadn't thought about that. That's a good idea. Let's bring that forward to our district convention and see. And so it was trying to get people connected who I think it's just not our nature as a synod to really interact with each other much beyond some channels like what you're doing with United Leadership Collective and others. We just don't have a lot of cross communication. We have a lot of up-down communication and that makes it harder to organize or to bring things to a convention.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's definitely true. So if people are listening right now and they want to get connected to the clearinghouse, I normally wait till the end, but just drop that. Where can they connect it?
Speaker 3:Well, if they're interested in something, they can email me. So kbrashear, b-r-a-s-h-e-a-r at rembolt R-E-M-B-O-L-T. Lawfirmcom. Or you just look up Kurth Brashear in Google. There's only one of me, so Google pretty much finds me anyway. But I'd be happy to forward to them anything that was submitted so they could think about that.
Speaker 2:Amen, amen, all right. Well, we've talked on this podcast a fair amount about the prior approval process and you've thought about it a fair amount as well. What do you think needs to change in that? And I always have to say, like this is not an attack on any one person in leadership, like this is a system that's been created through bylaw changes over time, and I think bylaws need to change to give greater transparency to how the prior approval process happens, connected to our concordias and to our seminaries. So would you talk about that a little bit, kurt?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would say Tim, first, as an attorney who deals in a lot of nonprofit issues, one of the challenges we have in the church is we are trying to paper trust. You cannot create enough bylaws, enough constitution provision, enough policies to enough detail, to the point that we all kind of joke about. You know well, let's see what 5.3.3.1.2.5 says about this. Right, you can never, you can never paper trust.
Speaker 3:So there's got to be an element of we're going to trust each other, that we're all, we all confess, share a belief in the confessions, know Christ to be the sole means of salvation, et cetera. And I'm not saying et cetera, dismiss it, I'm just we all know it. Right, we know it. I think that. But that mindset has permeated and continues in the synod from way back of this sense of we want to make sure, we want to be certain and prior approval, I think has probably and I'll defer as a lay person I think it has a lot of merit to it in the sense of we want to make sure that the people who are leading our institutions and teaching theology and in certain positions of influence or importance, that they do share our confession and are going to do those things.
Speaker 3:Yep, that makes perfect sense For sure. From my perspective, the problem is and I know it's been talked about on this podcast and others but there's no transparency at all of what are the standards that are being used, and a lack of transparency fosters mistrust. It fosters not putting the best construction on things. It leads one to wonder. It may cause us to start slandering or thinking about those sinfully I mean in our sinful condition, and I'll use my example. So when Brian Friedrich left to go to Concordia St Paul, he was president. When I came to Concordia, nebraska, he left. I was still on staff there.
Speaker 3:I was blessed to be nominated by several people for that presidential search to potentially be a president at Concordia, nebraska. Now, god in his wisdom did not include me in that, but the point that happened after saying yes, I'd agree to be nominated, I'd submit the information right, is all I get after that is simply you're not moving forward. You're not on the, you're not, you're not a pastor, you're not on the list. But there's no reason why. And I'm going to tell you, tim, honestly, that was one of those moments that's really challenging when you're a person of faith of well, am I not Lutheran enough? Do I not believe enough, because no one talked to me, no one interviewed me, no one knows. I put down all my bona fides and I have no idea. Now let me be clear Bernard Boll, god has called exactly the right person to be at Concordia, nebraska.
Speaker 3:But we have to have something that says what are the standards we're using, what is the process that was applied? And, frankly, the other part of it is, I think, a sense of if we're saying, especially with pastors or professional church workers, rostered church workers, if they're not sufficient for prior approval, do we not have to ask then, why are they in the positions they're in now and are there any issues that might need to be addressed with that? I know of one instance at least with a pastor who was on a prior approval list to teach at a seminary but wasn't on a prior approval list to teach theology at a Concordia. I don't understand how that happens. And so we've got to. The only way we can function as a church body as well together, as God would want us to do to carry out the mission, is that we have trust, transparency, understanding of what are the processes that are being used and what are the standards that are being applied.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I 100% agree, praying for that, praying for resolutions toward that end. You and I both have experiences where some synod workers experience adverse outcomes for challenging the existing status of the synod, challenging the status quo. How did we get to the place where even lovingly challenging the status quo became a punishable offense? No one could lead in the local church, at least not lead well, if they never challenged the status quo. But it feels very hierarchical. It doesn't feel congregational and I know congregations are messy. But the synod in convention exists to care for, steward, raise up leaders for the next generation so that all would know Jesus, to advance the cause of Christ connected to our confessions, which I believe is the best exposition of scripture. And yet, if you look at something like prior approval, like pastoral formation, like our passive, aggressive tendencies in synod, if you lovingly speak about that like I can speak about it because I'm in a congregation that says Tim, there's some things that need to change for us to advance our mission here in the East Valley of Phoenix and if it's going to bless us, maybe it could bless other unique contexts as well. And so, yeah, 20% of your time is going to be spent talking about some difficult things in in the synod, let's, let's get after it Like I'm. That's my context, that's my charge from my board. But if I were in another chair in one of our institutions, there is no way I could have had all the conversations I've had up to this point. I'm covered by my local church and there has to be at some point.
Speaker 2:I don't care if you agree on everything we've said. That is not according to the way of Jesus, that we couldn't be honest with our brother or sister. Where there's opportunities for growth, sin is ever before me, right? I mean, there's always opportunities to change. I don't know how we got to this and I think it's the passive, aggressive tendency. I see you, but then I'm going to. I talk not to you, but I'll talk about you to other people and this I was just talking with a brother, but I'll talk about you to other people.
Speaker 2:And this I was just talking with a brother, talking about how like people like each other. You know, I like to be around people that are like me and I think that's like the root of my sin, because sin separates us from God. God should have no right. He should have. There's no conceivable way that the God of the universe, who is wholly other, would make me a broken sinner, the most other to God, his dwelling place, his temple. So God has breached that gap, he's bridged it. We as the church are called to do the exact same thing. And if we can't do that with our brothers and sisters in the LCMS, what chance do we have with those that are far from the Lord in our community? So there we go, rant done. What's your thought, kurt?
Speaker 3:This is just the adult version of what we, at least in Nebraska, call the Lutheran parking lot conversation right After the congregational meeting, where no one says anything because they don't want to be risk anything or be judged or say, oh, you're not as Lutheran as you think you are, and then we'll go out in the conversation and the little groups will form and talk about how much they don't like whatever just happened and we have to find a way to be able to have conversation, to have discussion, to be transparent with each other because we confess we are all sinners and have fallen short of the grace of God and none of us is not that right. But the last two places in my experience, just speaking for me, the last two places in the synod really, where it's okay to articulate yourself without repercussion, are either a congregation, because the congregations are still kind of, you know, in their position in our structure, and for laity, because you know I'm not going to get excommunicated, I don't think, from St John for being on your podcast or for sharing my thoughts and others right. But for the rostered workers, I mean, there has been a, for whatever reason, has developed. There has become a culture of concern about what will I say? What's recorded, what's shared, what is somebody watching from some other place who isn't involved in my ministry, but they'll make comments about that.
Speaker 3:Or I've been blessed to have many friends who work at different levels of the Senate and they will talk about folks that they know have read their social media feed or something and been like, well, why were you with this person? Or why did you attend that conference? And it's, what are we doing here? I mean we need to engage with a sinful, broken world. The church is sinful and broken as well. All of us are saved. We got to step back from a moment of saying, well, I'm the right kind of Lutheran and Tim you're not, or Tim you saying that to me. And more about what are we confessing together, what are we sharing and how are we going to do the mission of the church of witnessing Christ to others in many and various ways. But we are at the point and maybe this goes to. There are things that I've been blessed to know because of the vocations God has called me to over my time. The majority of the lay people in the Missouri Synod have no awareness that this is what's going on.
Speaker 2:Well, let's make them aware.
Speaker 3:We have to.
Speaker 2:We have to so we have to.
Speaker 2:That's what we're working to do. Healthy organizations, healthy churches, healthy businesses. They handle difficult conversations well. They spur one another on toward love and good deeds. If we see something in a coworker, a partner, and we don't say something, that's like the worst position. I say something out of love for a brother, because I care for them and I want them to grow, and as they grow and their teams grow, the congregation or the organization grows. That's just how it works. Jesus engaged in difficult conversations all the time. What's your favorite? This is a little bit of a tangent, but what's your favorite leadership book for understanding how to have constructive, difficult conversations? Is there one that comes top of mind to you, Kurth?
Speaker 3:I don't know, that's probably not a genre. That's been my thing. The Bible is good. Well, yeah, see, now I'm not Lutheran enough because I didn't say that first. No give me a break.
Speaker 3:That's the problem. I don't read a ton of those. Maybe I should. I think the Bible is.
Speaker 3:I mean, look, matthew 18 is all about leadership. It is about how do we deal with one another. How do we acknowledge where we've been hurt by or wronged someone else, and how do we deal with one another. How do we acknowledge where we've been hurt by or wronged someone else and how do we show grace to each other? And, frankly, there's no leader who's effective anywhere, who can get by with saying to the people they're leading do it my way, just because and that's I mean that works in your family, maybe until you have teenagers like at least from my experience but you've got to be able to acknowledge. And that works in your family, maybe until you have teenagers, at least from my experience but you've got to hurt them To hear those words.
Speaker 3:You know, I forgive you. Or to forgive somebody is powerful and it has far more effect than simply saying well, you know you did this wrong and therefore we can't trust you to do that again. We've got to find a way to God's in charge If I believe in the God that I do, which is the creator of the universe, who does not need me but does care about me, then you know we keep thinking that somehow we've got to handle this for God and we're going to have to do all these things. Let's trust. Let's trust him one, but then let's also acknowledge what we confess, which is and I am a poor, miserable sinner in need of grace in all relationships and we don't show enough grace to each other.
Speaker 2:Yeah, hey, I've been. I've been doing a lot of thinking on sins of omission, right? One of my favorite leadership books is Leadership and Self-Deception, and it's written by the Arbinger Group. It's a classic, now probably 20 some years old, and it talks about being in the box toward a person or an organization through self-deception, pretty much through trying to justify yourself as more righteous to win, and we end up putting ourselves and others in a box when we lie to ourselves like we have no contribution toward whatever the dysfunction is. And confession they don't use this word because it's a secular book, but confession and absolution is literally what gets you out of the box. My intention toward you was good, but the way it got executed was poor. Will you forgive me and let's grow up? Let's grow up together.
Speaker 2:This is the call of the Christian, and there's no end to sins of omission, right? I mean, there's always the conversation, and I think this is the greatest sin in the LCMS right now the unhad conversation or the fear of having a conversation where you could be challenged. So let's just silence it. If we don't say anything about it, it doesn't exist. If we don't acknowledge the power structures that are in place, it does and the power structures start in the local church. Let's be honest, right, it does. And the power structures start in the local church. Let's be honest, right, right. The power of pastor is are they working through, with and for the people, or are they working over? And the apostle paul goes off on this and jesus obviously gives us a great example. This is the way of the cross you are leading through people, with people, for them, not over, not over them. You're not an overlord, and I'm thinking even now, even the language of an over do we use over shepherd, we use under shepherd, for we as pastors, right, we take the low place and that moves from our homes, out of the community and there, before the grace of God, go.
Speaker 2:I as a leader, if I'm not working with a team of people, bringing them together, hearing all perspectives, casting a vision, seeing the vision tweaked, dreaming new dreams, trying to execute those dreams, if I'm trying to do that solely as a pastor, kurth, I got no chance. No chance of caring for people, discipling people and multiplying them in mission to launch new things, if I'm not working through the priesthood of all believers, I'm not working. That's my ultimate call. Ephesians, chapter four equip the saints for love and good deeds. So yeah, we've got room for growth. Anything more to say there?
Speaker 3:Well, and I just want you didn't? You asked about a leadership book and I'll have to come up with one sometime. I'll have to read one maybe, but I will say, um, tim, for me one of the key examples of leadership that the first time I saw it have latched on to. I don't know if you're a history guy or not, but on D-Day, dwight Eisenhower wrote a message, taking responsibility in advance in case the invasion failed. The invasion of France failed. Took total said it was my call, my decision, my responsibility. Right and to your point.
Speaker 3:I fully agree with that and I would say that's one of the aspects of my prayer for the Senate is we see more leaders take responsibility. As I have always said to teams that I've had, we'll between you and I, if you make a mistake, we'll talk about that, but to anybody outside of our team, it's my responsibility and I will be the only one who takes the blame for it. And how often do we not see where things don't go right, where we don't see those who are the leaders take responsibility? That makes a huge difference in terms of culture as well.
Speaker 2:Well, the inverse of that is the political tendency, because the political tendency is to boast in what I do and then, when things go bad, well, it was that guy, I inherited this or whatever, right? No, no, no Good, jesus-centered, cross-centered leadership. If it goes well, it's the Holy Spirit, it's God, it's the team, it's us, and if it goes poorly, I take responsibility. So, yeah's, let's work toward that and you also promote I'm going to get into this term limits, I haven't talked about this a lot Term limits for circuit, district and synod leaders. Why are term limits, especially in the political engine which is the 35 districts of the LCMS and then the synodical gathering? Why do you think term limits are healthy?
Speaker 3:From my perspective, one of it's polity, but it's also experience. So, nebraska district we are in the minority. We do have term limits on our president, for instance, and I've seen in my adult lifetime God has blessed the Nebraska district with Gene Gerke and then Russ Sommerfeld and now Richard Snow. I mean he has provided great leaders and there is a mindset. From a faith perspective, I would say term limits are the thing that cause us, as sinful humans, to get over the fact that any of us is irreplaceable and it's a God we're going to say you know, russ Sommerfeld has done a great job as your district president. Who are you going to lead us to have be the next district president? Right, none of us is irreplaceable. So there's a perspective of, from my sense, god is going to work, no matter what.
Speaker 3:The other part is just, especially at the synodical level, and it's not about President Harrison, it's not the change. People forget that the change in how we elect occurred before President Harrison was elected the first time, but when we moved away from having elections at the convention. We are yeah, we're by default, we're almost an incumbent protection system You're going to. I mean, there just aren't that many pastors who are well known in the synod that once somebody is synodical president, really they're probably by default going to be synodical president absent a major scandal of some kind which, to be clear, has not happened, is nothing that's going on, but our structure right now is almost an incumbent default election, and so in advocating for this, both on our experience in Nebraska, it's then saying look, missouri Synod, god will provide us the presidents we need when we need them, but let's give more voices an opportunity to at least have a chance to be elected, and that may be saying thank you for your service. President, your time is done, and now we'll see who God leads us for the next chapter.
Speaker 2:Yeah, some of the arguments against it that I heard with district presidents, which I think are kind of funny, is well, if he's not the district president, what job will he have? It's like go be a pastor, I don't know. There's plenty of churches. How many vacancies do you got right now? I'm sure one of them are going to give this guy a shot. And obviously the same is true for anybody in a synodical position as well, like, the heart and soul of what we do is in the local congregation, connected to the mission, word and sacrament here. So yeah, that argument doesn't hold up for me.
Speaker 2:Let's go a little bit deeper into the demographic shift, the voice that was given to all congregations and lay representatives in the synodical president. And this goes back 15 years ago or so, because it used to be where you've got a circuit, and a circuit has to have a certain amount of members in the circuit congregations, et cetera for even it to be a circuit that gets to vote. One pastor, one lay. And it used to be that the synod president was voted on at the very, at the very beginning of the synod convention and when and when President Kishnick was unelected, he still had to lead the entire convention. I had an idea the other day why don't we put why don't it be the end of the convention so that whoever is the person that's leading it doesn't have this kind of shame? Because I was voted out just the end of the convention. Then you could just kind of move on with it.
Speaker 2:But when we gave voice to every congregation and as the average size of congregations have declined, you got a pastor. If you got a lay person, your congregation has the same weight in choosing the next president of 40 people as a congregation of 4000 people that we don't have a house of representatives in the LCMS right, it's like solely a Senate. So it makes it very. This is one of the challenges for I as a larger church pastor, like where is our voice? And I? So I'm just. While I'm on this kick, I'll just say look at the floor committees, look at how many of the synodical floor committees include leaders who are in medium to larger size congregations that are in church planning movements, multi-site movements. You will not find many. You will not find many and that's unfortunate. So anything more to say toward the synodical president election Kurt?
Speaker 3:You know, from my perspective it would be great to get it back at the convention, and whether that's at the beginning or the end, I still think it's better at the convention when we don't have. I mean, if I remember correctly, the last presidential election the majority of congregations did not actually vote, you know, that's just. At least, if you're at the synodical convention, the delegates there are typically voting right Engaged. But we have, we are still using a system we designed I mean conceptually at least. We designed in the 1860s, you know, even in the 1900s, where you had no congregation, had 2000 members, no congregation had 20 members. I mean, you had so many Germans coming over that they probably had 200 people in that area, right, and there was a lot more uniformity in that.
Speaker 3:But you know, we're at a point now where and I'm not saying big is the rationale, I'm talking about the number of people who are involved. But my congregation, you know we're one of the youth group has 180 members in it. It's a big church, it's larger than over half of the congregations in the Synod, you know. So it's, how do we get some voice that reflects all of us amongst the 1.8 million Missouri Synod Lutherans? Oh well, we've had a congregation here since, you know, 1875, and there may be 20 people left and they're faithfully the word and sacraments, but their vote is the same as this congregation over here that's been around since 1960 and has 800 worshiping on a weekend. It seems skewed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think it is, and hopefully there are resolutions that try to help us address this opportunity.
Speaker 3:I mean one of the you know one of the tip point, tim, I think one of the again, I think a lot of people just aren't aware of it we have I think 13 of the 35 districts have fewer than 125 congregations in them. Meanwhile, you've got districts like Michigan and Texas, which are our largest right, who are north of 300. You have districts that have Nebraska district. We have about 95,000 baptized members in the Nebraska district. We have districts I'm not going to name them, I'm not going to pick on it but we have districts who have 5,000, 6,000 members I mean we but yet we're treating those all as the same thing in terms of their representation on the nomination committee for the Synodical Convention, in terms of how we elect, and we've just got to find a way to balance that out a bit better.
Speaker 2:Do you know what that I mean? People are looking for ideas. You've got some resolutions. Could you paint the picture, kurth, of how we could get a greater distribution of voice vote in the Senate? Any thoughts there?
Speaker 3:Well, I would say there's a resolution actually that our congregation, st John Seward, introduced at the Nebraska District and it had come out of something put into the clearinghouse that was calling for congregations with more than 500 members, or no 1,500 members, to be pulled out of electoral circuits and have their own vote at the synodical convention.
Speaker 3:Because if you think about, I mean, the electoral circuits are effectively supposed to be between 1,000 and 7,000 members that they represent. So it was saying let's take at least these 80 or 90 congregations that are much larger and let's have them each have a pastoral and lay delegate at the synodical convention without diminishing the others, just to at least add that in for a greater vote. Now you know 80 votes or 160 representatives out of you know 3,000 that we have at the Synodical Convention. Is that a huge change? No, but I think if Christ Greenfield, if St John Seward, hales, corner, you know, if those congregations have a delegate at the Synodical Convention who can speak from the perspective of these larger congregations and who represent more just by membership, represent more Missouri Synod Lutherans than many electoral circuit delegates do, there'd be a benefit to that More voices at the table. To your point, more voices leads to better discussion. It gets more people involved in how do we as a church carry out our mission and right now we're not hearing from some significant portions of synod.
Speaker 2:What would you say to someone who says well, all of those large churches, they're growing because they've compromised liturgy or something like that. They're less than Lutheran. I think that's the label that gets put on a lot of larger churches, and so why would we want to give them greater voice? They're just going to pollute the pure doctrine which we have in the LCMS. Any thoughts there, kurth?
Speaker 3:Maybe this goes back to my prior approval, anx, but if you are my brother or sister in the Lutheran Church, you are my brother or sister in the Lutheran Church. I'm probably wrong about this. I will just tell you. I am so thankful that there are 1.8 million of us who I think on 98% of the things. We all agree on all of that, and my default is I tend to focus on the 98% of the things we all agree on all of that, and my default is I tend to focus on the 98% we agree on, not the 2% we disagree on. You used an example, so I guess I'll go there.
Speaker 3:Tim, I was raised in a traditional liturgy. St John is generally a traditional liturgy. The congregation that my wife and I belonged to when we first got married was more contemporary or blended. She has her preference, I have my preference. Here's the thing. Why do I care? I don't, I don't and this is going to drive some people nuts I just don't care about liturgy. It's not my thing, don't get me wrong. I care about the liturgy, but the style of liturgy. If someone wants to have a praise quote unquote a praise band, and if someone wants to have a choir, I want to have them both and I'm not sure why we can't just say look, they're confessing, they're preaching, they're carrying out the sacraments. We're on the same page on this and more people are being reached. I know I get some people crosswise with that, but the stuff that matters is not about I love the organ. I also know there wasn't an organ in Galilee in 50 AD right. There was a time when the organ.
Speaker 2:yeah, there was a time when the organ was a contemporary instrument. Yeah, and you could go back. Okay, why don't we have tambourines? Tambourines, I think, predate the organ Right, so is that more than tambourines are in the Bible? So it's just, yeah, it's a silly. Why are we fighting about it?
Speaker 3:It seems to me, what we are disagreeing about or judging based upon if those are fair words is, as I understand it, often adiaphora, not the core confessional pieces. And we keep raising the threshold for what it is to be Lutheran, just like we keep raising the threshold for what it is to be missional or remnant or whatever Versus. Let's just say, hey, here's what the confessions say, here's what Scripture says, let's move with it, let's go with it, hey.
Speaker 2:Kurth. This has been so much fun. Have you received last question have you received any resolutions that surprised you? You're like, wow, I didn't see that one coming. Any surprising resolutions.
Speaker 3:You know, for the clearinghouse, tim, I don't know that we received one that surprised me as much as the ones I've heard about that have been submitted by various groups and that's fine, that's such, I will say. The one that is intriguing to me and is going to continue to be a much representation of congregations of laity, is the voice of commission ministers in how the Synod does its work. And, coming from the Nebraska district where we have a strong Lutheran education background, lots of schools, high schools etc. We care about that very much. You know, we just have coming from Concordia, nebraska, which you know has trained more church workers than any other institution and synod.
Speaker 3:We've got a lot of folks who are professional church workers, who are carrying out the day-to-day work of the church and to not try and find a way, even if we don't want to give them a vote on the final matter, but to not build and find a way, even if we don't want to give them a vote on the final matter, but to not build in structures that say, hey, we want the input of DCEs, who I call the sergeant majors of the church. They just get stuff done right, but the DCEs and the teachers and parish musicians and deaconesses and others and say we want your input, we want your thoughts, we want to know what you think about that. We've got to. I would like us to find a way to have their perspectives and voices have an intentional part of the process, not just well, they're amongst the, they can't even vote. They're amongst the laity, they don't. They just get to come and observe. There's got to be some work done on that issue for the benefit of our church body. I think.
Speaker 2:I'm with you there and we're going to have. I got some guests coming on that are going to talk specifically to that topic in the near future, so that'll be good. What we've done in the Pacific Southwest District and started last convention and will continue here this summer, is they have an advisory vote. So there's a resolution that comes and we go to the commission ministers first and the jury says, or panel says, and then we see, well, kind of what they say.
Speaker 2:Here was a fascinating thing in our district. Pretty much the lady and the pastors went right along with it. So they were very influential. You know, they have a perspective and that was one way in our district we figured out how to get their voice to count. So there's a number of different ways, but it's not a way to not keep this conversation going, especially for a group of leaders in our church body who feel like their voice has not mattered for a number of years now. Frankly, I don't know back historically. I don't know that there's ever been. I don't know if the commission minister's voice has ever had a fair weight in the Senate. Do you have any from a history perspective there, kurth? I don't know.
Speaker 3:I don't know, but my impression is that no, it has not, but I don't know that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, very good. Hey, Kurth, if people want to connect with you, you left your email. Would you just leave that again? And people want to connect with you? You left your email. Would you just leave that again?
Speaker 3:and people want to get connected to the Clearinghouse, yeah it's K Brashear, k-b-r-a-s-h-e-a-r, at rembolt R-E-M-B-O-L-T. Lawfirmcom, and that's a great way to get ahold of me. Also, 402-405-0831 is my direct line, and so that just comes to me, so they're welcome to give me a call as well.
Speaker 2:I left my cell phone on a podcast a while back on the line with my friend, brian Stecker, and I had a brother right when it got released. He called me, he texted me and he goes. I really disagree with you on something and that I'm going to leave that with some suspense. He's going to be a guest on a podcast coming up here really soon because all truth has been revealed. All truth has been revealed and we don't need to be afraid to enter into difficult conversations and to experience challenge. That's just the way it works. That's the way it works in your law firm. That's the way it works here at Christ Greenfield we're praying. That's the way it works functionally in a healthy, jesus centered way in the LCMS. It's a, it's a yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3:No, I just let me be clear. So that phone number I left is my landline. It's a direct landline. So I don't want someone don't text me and think what a jerk he didn't respond to me. Just call and leave a message.
Speaker 2:So there you go, leave a message. There you go, there you go. This is Lead Time, like, subscribe, comment and comments really help move the conversation forward, even if you disagree with something we said. We're all growing up into Jesus, who is our leader and our Lord. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day. Grateful for you, kurt, thanks buddy, thanks Tim.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theuniteleadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.