Lead Time
Lead Time
Is the LCMS Emotionally Healthy?
Tim Ahlman welcomes Rev. Dr. Michael Eckelkamp, who shares transformative leadership insights from his experience as Senior Executive Director at Christ Lincoln Church and Schools and mentor to countless leaders.
• Two early mentors shaped Michael's approach to leadership: his third-grade teacher who helped him learn to read, and a man named Herbie who invited him to weekly dinners
• Understanding leadership and self-deception requires recognizing when we're "in the box" toward others, justifying our behavior by blaming them
• Trust operates like deposits in a bank account—consistent small investments create a reserve that allows relationships to weather occasional withdrawals
• Every congregation asks two questions about a new leader: "Will he love me?" and "Will he let me love him?"
• Young leaders need mentorship to develop character at the same rate as content knowledge
• Creating healthy rhythms (Michael swims at 4 am daily) provides capacity to handle leadership challenges
• High invitation coupled with high challenge creates environments where people grow spiritually and emotionally
• Curiosity (from Latin "cur" meaning heart) keeps us humble and open to what God is doing
• Leadership requires incremental 1% improvements in physical, emotional, spiritual and familial dimensions
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Speaker 2:Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman here. Jack Kalberg has the day off and I am so excited for our conversation today. Jesus Joy is going to be present as I get to sit down and learn with and honor a man who largely shaped my early leadership life. I'll tell you what, if it weren't for this man, I don't know. I don't know what would have happened on so many levels. This is the Reverend Dr Michael AL Echolkamp. He is currently serving as a Senior Executive Director at Christ Lincoln Church and Schools. This vibrant community has a regular attendance of approximately 2,500 Jesus followers who are sent out on mission connected to their three campuses.
Speaker 2:Michael graduated from Concordia University, portland, in 1985, majoring in biblical languages, behavioral sciences. That explains a lot. He attended and graduated from Concordia Seminary in 1990 there in St Louis with a Master of Divinity, 90 there in St Louis with a Master of Divinity, and then he got his Master of Sacred Theology, his STM, in 1991. He completed his doctorate at Westminster Theological Seminary in 2002. You were just in school for quite a while there, michael. He's currently also a graduate of the PLI, the Pastoral Leadership Institute, and currently mentoring 10 pastors. He regularly speaks to districts, circuits and congregations on developing intentional outreach into their local communities. His great joy is to mentor, encourage. Through high invitation and high challenge he mentors and coaches leaders to serve their communities. They release all of God's people out in love in mission to make Jesus known using their respective gifts. And the last note about Michael he currently is an avid pickleball fan and also teaches pickleball at a local community college.
Speaker 2:Michael Lechokamp, how are you doing, buddy?
Speaker 3:I am doing spectacular. What a joy it is just to get to reconnect with you. I tell you, when I think of you, my heart smiles.
Speaker 2:Well, mine is. I'm smiling wider, michael, and here's why I got to tell you the story. This man reached out Now. I thought I thought you were old at the time. Looking back, you're probably my age right right now. Right. And Michael says, hey, come on over to. He was at St John's in Denver at the time. I'm probably 27, 28, one or two years out of the seminary at Bethlehem, lutheran and Lakewood. And he says, hey, I'm bringing a number of younger leaders together. We're going to read some books together and pray and encourage one another, and you know we'll do it about every other month or so.
Speaker 2:Tim, you want to come and be a part of that, and it was one of my best next to marrying my wife. It was one of my favorite top 10 yeses that I ever said, because those three or four years being in a consistent mentoring relationship with you having all of the, it really was some family systems conversation. What does it look like to lead with integrity and courage and humility? And you let us behind the curtain of what it looked like to lead in your chair at St John's the level of access we had to all of the wisdom that Jesus had given you that you just poured out so abundantly upon us. You know, looking back, and there are many other things you could have been doing, but mentoring young leaders casting vision for young leaders has a multiplying impact that goes way beyond just your local context, michael, and I'm better, and multiple people that I've got to mentor and coach pass it on to are better because of you. So thank you for being a river rather than a reservoir, reverend Dr Michael Echocamp.
Speaker 3:Well, my cup is full. Thanks for talking today. Appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So what gave you the drive to pour into Young Leaders? Tell that story.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So there's two stories really around it, and it goes back to my third grade teacher as funny as this sounds and, of course, an elementary school teacher. Her name is Mrs Green. There you go, and Mrs Green recognized that I was way behind in reading and what she did is she came alongside me and she says you know, michael, you can do better and I'm going to help you get there. I will never forget that phrase hey, michael, you can do better and I'm going to help you get there.
Speaker 3:So she stayed after school with me and gave me the personal time, the relational time, coupled with teaching me to read and even more, teaching me the love of reading. That's what she did. So by the time I got to sixth grade, I'd read every Nancy Drew, hardy Boyd book in the library George Washington, abraham Lincoln it ignited me on a love in history. I've read an autobiography on every president and just wow, she taught me the love of learning, but she also taught me it was possible. She saw something that I couldn't see and she chose to speak to my journey.
Speaker 2:Wow, can you hear the bell in the background?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it rings every time I say something powerful.
Speaker 2:Let's go, but that's so true how we need those. Mrs Greens, Shout out to every elementary teacher you may think that you're not doing I mean no casting vision for six, seven, eight, nine, all the way up through high school and college. It's never too late to start learning, and that's really. It's not about what you learn, it's about developing, because there's always more to learn. But it's about developing the habit of learning, the habit of curiosity being called up and out.
Speaker 2:I've wrestled this a lot, Michael. There's no room in well, there shouldn't be, but Satan comes at us with this. There's no room for pride in this endeavor called learning, because there's always someone who's up and out, Because there's always someone who's up and out. Obviously, God is above, but it's the spirit of adventure, the call of adventure, that leads us to inevitable curiosity. And what that does in my heart is it locates people and says you're fascinating. Aren't people like the most fascinating thing ever, Like how God made us and our unique experiences? And so every person that I come in contact with, young and old, this appears to be the posture of Jesus, One I'm fascinated, I'm curious by, and I want to call them up, up and out, having something to learn in a reciprocal relationship and wanting to learn from them. Talk about reciprocity in leadership and how that moves us. I think from seeing the hierarchy, though there's always hierarchy, but it positions us, no matter what seat we take in whatever organization. It positions us with humility and curiosity, Michael yeah.
Speaker 3:So that word curiosity cur Latin and French. That means heart, so it's a heart of wonder, it's a heart of awe. And so I think, truly, one most powerful prayer is you can pray, especially in the midst of conflict, is and so I think, truly, one of the most powerful prayers you can pray, especially in the midst of conflict, is God, I wonder what you're up to. So you have the power to make all things work together for good, even this situation right here. And so, god, I wonder why I'm in this place right here, right now. And that's not just times of sadness or hardship or conflict, it's also times of joy and celebration. But, god, I wonder what you're going to do with this.
Speaker 3:I covered for a wedding for somebody in Colorado Springs and horrible traffic all the way down, horrible traffic all the way back. I mean, it was a mess. Caterer is four hours late for the wedding and I am not pleased. This is I'm doing this for a friend, I don't know this couple I am covering at the last moment and I'm like, ah, and one of the bridesmaids comes over and sits down. The service happens. She says you know, you said something about that. God loves us passionately. I don't get that, tell me about that. So over the next half an hour of time I share the gospel with her. And the bride comes over and says hey, things are just getting started, can we? And she goes hey, I'm in the middle of getting saved here.
Speaker 2:This can wait. I need to be saved by Jesus.
Speaker 3:So I am mad as can be that my schedule has been conflicted and God's going. Really, I just sent you to go love on someone that you will probably never meet again and tell them how to meet you again in heaven. Whatever you know, just that power of God, I'm going to be available in this moment for whoever you put in front of me and for Jesus. That was Pilate or a Samaritan woman, it was a Roman centurion or it was his dear friend, lazarus it was. Who was it? And God says I'm doing something here. I'm on a mission for you and I'm on a mission with you.
Speaker 2:Be somebody right over your left shoulder. Be somebody who makes everybody feel like a somebody.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this morning at the gym I'm holding the door for this woman and she's a little ways off and she starts to pick up the pace and I said it's okay, You're worth the wait. And she goes. And she did a little nervous laugh. I don't know her, she doesn't know me, I'm old enough not to be scary. Right, and I opened the door, said that A few minutes later she goes. Why'd you say that? And I said because you matter to God, you should matter to me Now. That didn't lead to get on our knees and accept Jesus as our Savior, but it changed her day that somebody held a door and somebody reminded them that they were worth it. That's the beauty of our God, who works moment by moment. Movements are moments by moments by moments, stacked on top of each other.
Speaker 2:That's it. You said you had two stories. Ooh, good job. What was the other story? What was your other story?
Speaker 3:I grew up in a home deeply, deeply impacted by chemical addiction. I've lost almost all my family members to it. And there was Herbie. I moved into an apartment in high school, worked a graveyard. I'm just trying to survive. I'd been a Christian for a few years and Herbie says you know, michael, a young boy living in an apartment is bad. Bad things happen to boys who live in apartments by themselves. And so he took me, loved me, was Jesus to me, mentored me. That's the power of mentoring. So the Mrs Greens, herbies, the world is desperately longing for them and every follower of Jesus has the power to do the very same thing.
Speaker 2:Herbie, he didn't have to do that. He took the time to notice the hurting and vulnerable young Michael Echocamp, yep, and the world is changed.
Speaker 3:And you know I'm not. I wasn't as cool and suave.
Speaker 2:That's a lie. Yes, you were.
Speaker 3:I was just that nerdy, that nerdy young kid, but that's you know. I have tears of joy because when we connect to people and God, we're doing it, because God said I've got a divine appointment for you and I'm going to care for you and I will walk with you. And I may walk with you for one minute or one year, I don't know, but God's doing something in the midst of it. Yeah, so good. Hey, thanks for letting me cry on your podcast.
Speaker 2:It's the best dude Tears of joy, tears of joy. So healing, go ahead.
Speaker 3:So Herbie just walked with me and he said you're coming over for dinner every Wednesday, um, and if you can't make it I'll come get you, but you are not walking this journey alone. And just that, that word of encouragement. He didn't rescue me, he couldn't fix it, but he could be present in the midst of it.
Speaker 2:Hey, one of my favorite books that I read with you back in the day this isn't any of the notes that I sent, it's just jogging my memory and it's had a ripple impact. It's a secular book but it is as sacred as you can possibly imagine is a leadership in self-deception? Yes, being in the box or out of the box toward another person? What do you love most about leadership? I mean, this is one of my top five kind of leadership books that I want to cycle through the learning it's in story. It's a powerful metaphor of a business leader who gets transformed, but the application into the life of the Christian is exponential. Any thoughts just generally about leadership and self-deception, Michael?
Speaker 3:So whenever we think of the word deception, we have to think of the evil one. The evil one is the one who tries to convince us that we don't have value, we don't have worth, we don't have a mission. It really doesn't matter. Right, where God says you do have value, you do have worth. Everything you do matters, okay. But here's the thing when we get to the end of the Lord's prayer that was actually added on around the 11th century not what Jesus taught, but that last part for thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, when I pray that this is what I do, I go thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory. The deception is to think that this is my kingdom, my power, my glory. When I'm there, I'm like the evil one, caught up in pride.
Speaker 3:That says this transactional relationship, what's it going to bring me? Instead, I've been given by a God life, and life everlasting. I've been placed into the rescue boat of the greatest mission in the history of the world. I don't need to gain anything else. I have all that I need for eternity. My job now is to speak into others. Do I do that perfectly? No. Do I live in the grace every day to start again? Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:How does that change the way we walk through conflict? The book goes into being in the box or out of the box, and when we're in the box, toward others, we're lying Like we're in the box. Toward others, we're lying like we're not the problem, like I don't have any kind of problem and I need other people to be the problem to justify my existence. And so this kind of crazy collusion cycle takes place that I almost need the other person to be my enemy, anticipating their inappropriate words, their inappropriate intentions, and this justifies my anger, my anxiety. And then it just goes around and around in marriage right, it's called the crazy cycle. He doesn't love her, over time, she doesn't respect him, and around and around it goes. We collude with one another toward our own demise.
Speaker 2:Humans are very good at ruining our lives. It's like Jesus wants to call us through confession and absolution, confessing I'm the problem, I'm the man, I'm the one that walked right by, didn't hold the door open One of the stories they tell. I'm the man who stayed in bed when my little son, toddler son, was crying and I, instead of getting up and doing what I should have done in the moment, I betrayed myself and made myself into the victim and my wife into the enemy.
Speaker 2:Why would we ever want to do that? Right? But this is the key toward unlocking the power of conflicting well, one, taking responsibility for what we did and I've been down this path for quite a while, michael is the length of things. The list of things that I could have done, sins of omission that I didn't do is very long. So there is always room for me to take responsibility for something I did or failed to do, and then to give the other person the opportunity to release me and the struggle to Jesus, and I, in turn, reciprocate and do the exact same confession and absolution. Confession and forgiveness is a game changer. First one to the cross wins Go. Anything to say about that, michael, as it relates to the book and or conflict resolution.
Speaker 3:So here's the right there in that word confession. It's a Greek word that means homologia. It's saying the same word. God says you are a selfish creature. And I say yes, I am. And God says I am a selfless. God Be imitators of me as children that he loves.
Speaker 3:And so in leadership and self-deception, we begin to demonstrate the same behavior that the other person is doing. That drives us crazy. That's the deception point. So I'm mad that someone doesn't deal with conflict well. So I don't deal with conflict well with them. I'm colluding, you know using that word collusion. And so the beautiful thing is vulnerability, the ability to step into someone's life one second later or 15 years later and say I'm a broken person who did broken thing that breaks things. That's me.
Speaker 3:And so you know, when we were ready to make a big decision in Denver do we take on another campus or whatever? And somebody raised their hand and they said can you guarantee this is going to work? And I said I want to tell you there's two things I'm afraid of One. I'm afraid this campus is going to take off and do great things and I'm going to take the credit for it. And the other thing I'm afraid of is it going to fail and you're going to think less of me. What I do know is, if that campus closes, it's probably going to turn into a pop shop or a porn place, because it's right in that neighborhood.
Speaker 3:We cannot lose a footprint for the gospel. That's what I do know. You get back to the honesty. We have a God who loves us and forgives us. He's not waiting for us to clean up so he can give us a bath, but he's also inviting us, in the midst of our brokenness, to be honest, to say the same thing You're a sinner, yes, I am honest. To say the same thing You're a sinner, yes, I am. You are forgiven yes, I am. So we're just telling God what God has told us You're a sinner, yes. You're forgiven, yes. And that releases us from the need of perfectionism and instead to live in the messy, imperfect world we live in under the perfect grace of an amazing God.
Speaker 2:It's the best Words of wisdom. You've been pastor how many years now? 30. Right, that's a minute. We'll double what I've been, and I kind of measure the rate of organizational health based on the quantity and quality of the difficult conversations that we have.
Speaker 2:Right, and and I can be cause I can be overly frank I have in the, in the dynamic to passive kind of behavioral tread traits. I'm slightly imbalanced on the dynamic, aggressive side, shocker this lesson over time to me. But so in meetings, in meetings though, I've found that if I, as one of the leaders and I guess in my, you know, a lead pastor, if I just take the risk and say, not condemnation or shame, but take the risk and say how I'm feeling regarding this struggle, whatever it may be, the other day I took a risk and said, in the midst of a conversation that was kind of spiraling and we were heading in a potentially dysfunctional direction and blaming or shaming kind of you know, a certain grouper that never happens in the church, right, we, kind of passively, but then you can kind of everybody knows who we're talking about or what we're talking about, or if that group only did this and I'm like I am becoming I attest to this. I'm becoming mildly frustrated with the direction of this conversation right now and everybody kind of and okay, and we paused. It kept going because we're Christ Greenfield, we're a very passionate group of people. It kept going for a couple other minutes and then I was kind of like, okay, we're gonna stop.
Speaker 2:So in small groups or meetings I just step up to that line to let people know how I'm emotionally feeling and it kind of centers the group back to equilibrium. Say more about the necessity of expressing as a leader maybe a first chair, second chair, leader, whatever group of people they're kind of leading taking that emotional risk to say how, wherever it could potentially be dysfunctional, is making you we don't talk as Lutherans about our feelings too much, how it's connecting with us emotionally and how that provides equilibrium to the team. Say more there. Echo Camp.
Speaker 3:First of all, we are fearfully and wonderfully made, and we have a God who is deeply passionate. We have a God who is deeply passionate. We have a God who gets incredibly angry. We have a God who dances and delights with joy, who runs out and grabs the prodigal son and throws a party. We have a God who has incredible emotions that are exactly perfect at all the places and all the times. We were made in God's image. Those emotions are good, but they're not the perfect indicator, and so sometimes we just have to go.
Speaker 3:God's given me this passion at this moment to fight for something, but I can fight to be right and destroy a relationship, or I can fight to be righteous so that we can get to right that in those meetings. The mark of a good leader isn't someone who solves all the problems. It's who gets the gifts at the table that God gave and to learn and grow in relationship with each other and to solve that problem together. And so we're in such a we got to solve this problem now so we can move on to the next one versus. The problem is our relationship. If I'm not honest and genuine the way I'm feeling, then I can't be honest and genuine in the relationship.
Speaker 2:And that's yeah, that's the most fun thing, michael is when we're honest and vulnerable. It creates trust, and trust is the speed for innovation, for creativity, for appropriate problem solving, for new ministry launch. I mean, we move at the speed of trust, to be sure. But when we keep those emotions, how we're feeling, and don't kind of test it with our friends, our partners in the gospel, obviously it starts in our home when we bottle up. I've been on a kick. I think we're over in the church largely, we're passive and we've almost worn our passivity like it's a strong virtue and it leads toward passive, aggressive behavior which destroys trust, destroys team, obviously has a potential to destroy the mission of the local church. Say more there, michael.
Speaker 3:So trust is when words and actions align obviously has a potential to destroy the mission of the local church. Say more there, michael. So trust is when words and actions align. If your words and your actions aren't aligning, then you don't build trust, you can't have trust. So if somebody is saying one thing and doing something else, then there's not going to be trust. And trust is earned at the speed of relationship.
Speaker 3:So if I put $5 a day in your bank, tim, if I put $5 a day in your bank for one week that's seven days, seven times five is you ready to do the math? 35, right? If I have 35 bucks in the bank and I write a check some of your listeners won't know what that is, but I write a check for $50, what happens? The check bounces and in some states you can charge up to three times the amount as a penalty. So if I wrote a check for $35, to multiply that times three, that's the penalty I have to pay on the $35 check. Now come back to it. If I put $5 a day in Tim Allman's bank for a year let's just call it $1,500 to make it easy and, tim, if I take $200 out of the bank, what's going to happen?
Speaker 2:I mean you've made the investment, I mean you're still going to have money in the bank.
Speaker 3:I still got money in the bank. We're going to be okay. For sure, we have relationship. I have $1,200 more in the bank. I still got money in the bank. We're going to be okay. For sure, we have relationship. I have. I have 1200 more dollars in the bank. But here's the thing is I'm not going to save that for a rainy day. I'm not going well, I got 12. So I can hurt us. No, what it is is I'm saying I want to put that money back in the bank because the more deposits I have in the bank, the more trust there is. And so when somebody says, hey, just I was in the moment I had to solve that I go great, I don't even know what you did, but good, because we have years of trust. The challenge is we often put people in leadership positions who have 35 bucks in the bank.
Speaker 2:Good.
Speaker 3:What can happen then? And at that point there's penalties all over the place, that's body bagging, people in ministry left and right. Instead to go, we're going to walk at the speed of trust, where you know my words and my actions align, and I know yours do, and we're going to take the time to move at the speed of relationship, because that's how Jesus was he walked three miles an hour, but you know, if you walk three miles an hour regularly, you're going to go a long, long way. Yeah.
Speaker 2:What do you think of that? It went all the way to the cross for sure. So you got me thinking about leaders who maybe have a position of influence before their character has caught up, and I'll just use myself as an example. There's no way I'm able to come into a divided church and school with $11 million in debt, worshiping 400 people with a school close to closing A lot of different opportunities for failure and able to find our way.
Speaker 2:I was not prepared, say 26-year-old Tim, I needed those five years of mentorship Some may say longer but the Lord called and he made a way and I had to ask for help from all sorts of people because it was very evident I never. It was very evident I needed help. I never want to forget what it's like not to know and then maintain curiosity, thinking that what got us here like this is what's going to take us there. It's always going to be different. My leadership is going to continue to evolve.
Speaker 2:But I think a lot of times for young leaders think coming straight out of the seminary and then a number of them have some really adaptive leadership challenges and unless there's mentorship and coaching and testing and someone who's just ahead not too far ahead, but just ahead and can kind of provide a little bit of a roadmap, and then the young pastor has a humility to say I know what I don't know, like I know a fair amount of things theologically, but as it relates toward creating and sustaining organizational health leading to financial stability and all those types of things, there's way more to learn as you get out and sometimes I don't think about this too much, but I do have concern for I should think about it more probably for the 26 to 28 year old leader who's just trying to make it and he's inheriting probably like a 60 to 120 year old institution that's maybe worshiping 70, 80 people, but they're man, they're passionate people.
Speaker 2:How does he enter into that system and survive? Right, I think it's got to be with the love and mentorship of someone who's going to help his character progress at the same rate, if not at a greater rate, than his content. The things that he's put into his mind Say more there about the young leader.
Speaker 3:So the amazing thing is and this is just how our amazing God is is our reality is none of us are exceptional. If I don't get enough sleep, my body will catch up with it. If I don't eat healthy, if I'm not stretching, if I'm not doing the things I'm supposed to do, I'm not exceptional. I will get injured, I will get tired, I will get overweight, I will be spiritually empty. None of us are exceptional. Okay, so when we're kind of, if you listen to the ordination vows of a pastor, it's basically you're promising that you're going to care for everybody all the time, everywhere. Right? Our wedding vows are like four sentences. Our ordination vows are like 14,000 sentences At least that's the way it feels. Right Instead to go? You know what? My responsibility is to love the person in front of me, and my responsibility is to equip the people around me to love the people in front of them. So let's just really simplify this and to say I see a young pastor who's worried. Is he going to kill this church? When I drove up the gravel driveway in the dual type parish that I served at, there was a mission church and a larger church I pulled into the driveway and I kid you not, tim? This is literally what I said. Well, if this place disappears, nobody will know, which meant if I kill this place, we're going to be okay.
Speaker 3:We had a big celebration. I was installed. I'm putting all my books in the right order, you know systematics, historical and practical. I've got them all up on the shelf. It's my first day in the office and I lean back and I literally I went like this Now what? Bam, bam bam on the back door of the church, which everyone thought the back door was the front door, and the guy's name is Art and Art goes my name's Art. I'm a Mason, are you for me or against me? And I looked at him and I said I said I bet I can get lunch out of this. And he goes, I'll pick you up at noon and we went out for lunch. Now I will tell you he was a Mason because he loved steak and a cheap steak at the Mason house and whatever. I held his hand as he passed away.
Speaker 3:A beautiful follower of Jesus. Right, I'm sitting here going. How do I not stop this place from dying? And I just needed people in my life to tell me. It's about you to help equip us and it's about us helping equip you.
Speaker 3:See, there's two things every young pastor and leader needs to hear, but I'll say this for pastors there's two questions that every parishioner is asking about. A new pastor just installed, and if you can answer these two questions generally, you're going to be okay. The first question that most parishioners want to ask is will he love me? They don't got the whole, why there's no reciprocity in the Gainis, apos, thales, monicum and Lila Crooks, hale-gorim. They're not thinking about that, they just wonder will this person care about me? But the second question, tim, is equally important Will he let me love him Now? But the second question, tim, is equally important Will he let me love him Now?
Speaker 3:You can't have full access by everybody all the time. Right, of course not. But the reality is, when we are honest and vulnerable in appropriate ways at appropriate times, we are inviting people to understand. That's who God is. I'm not God. I am not God, and it's not my job to believe for you. It is my job to love you, as God does his amazing work through his word. And so, if we can remember, it's not our job to save the church, it's our job to point the world to the Savior.
Speaker 2:That's so good. So God gave you an extra amount of wisdom, bro, and I just love taking it in. Your second question is really a wonderful one. Will he allow us to love him? And you know, sometimes I think, pastors, we can have a tendency toward pride which is masking, I think, our insecurity. Because if I really let people see all that's, all that's going on, would they still love me? Would my voice still matter? Would the authority of the office be demeaned, or something like that? And then I just always go back to Jesus. And Jesus had friends, right. The God of the universe, let other people love him.
Speaker 2:The audacity of this I'm reading, because we're recording this during Holy Week, wednesday of Holy Week, and I'm reading we've been going through Mark In Mark 14, jesus is in the garden and he's sorrowful unto the point of death, deeply distressed. The text says and he takes Peter, james and John, who have seen him be transfigured, been with Moses and Elijah, he takes his inner circle of close friends and just wait with me and watch and pray, right, and he comes back to him over and over, and I think the sensitivity of Jesus at three times. Could you not just be here with me in this and the flesh, you know, takes over and they need some sleep. It's been a long, emotional day and they don't really understand, you know, the gravity of all that Jesus is carrying or what he's entering into.
Speaker 3:And don't forget, they had seven cups of wine at the Passover meal.
Speaker 2:So fair enough. They've eaten and drank and they are sleepy that's the way it goes late into the evening, thank you. But Jesus needed just Jesus needed friends and I don't think we let that shape our ministry. And it doesn't mean you have to be close, intimate friends with everyone in the congregation. There's no possible way you can. But are you the reason I'm here and you develop such good relationships at St John's and now, I'm sure, there in Lincoln at Christ Lutheran? I mean you need nested relationships to feel secure from your home to your intimate kind of more close friends that you share Pretty much. You're an open book with out to a wider community, to a village, and I feel like man pastors, we could learn a fair amount from Jesus about becoming more vulnerable. Yeah, yeah, go ahead, michael.
Speaker 3:And when you find friends who want better for you do than you do. I have been blessed with amazing friendships and I have friends who are willing to risk their relationship to tell me what I need to hear. That is a friend. That is a friend who sticks closer than a brother, and so it's not that everybody likes me or like everyone, but I have people who go. Michael, like Mrs Green, you can do better and I'll walk with you there. When you surround yourself, especially men to men and women to women, when you surround yourself with godly men who call you on your crap because they care about you and they love you and they also call you out to go. You worked really hard. Well done, well done, brother. You leaned into the battle, you took some scars and we are better because you did that. Thank you. It's both and it's not either or Right. And so that ability to say I will allow meaningful relationship into my life and if people aren't looking for meaningful relationship, then it's okay, move on. I just give thanks to God for the people who love me enough to tell me what I need to hear. Can I go back to that gravel road church Please, real quick.
Speaker 3:I was so taught that the sermon has to be perfect in every way, shape and form, you know, and preaching is critical. Preaching is essential that it is flowing from and back to God's word, and so forth. It is a high priority, right, very high priority now that I've covered my bases on that. But, man, I was spending more time practicing delivering my sermon from a manuscript to make sure I got it right than living it out myself. And this couple that comes to this tiny little church, they go.
Speaker 3:You know, this is our third Sunday here and we just have a question why do you use a manuscript? I think we trust you more than you do. That was the last day I ever used a manuscript. That was 32 years ago. Now I write out sermons and I do outlines. I do all that. But I step into the pulpit with just a three or four sentence outline because I'm prepared, I'm ready to go. But what did they do? They said you don't trust yourself. That's confusing to us. How can we expect to trust ourselves or trust God if you're not doing that? And when you let people speak into your life like that, it's because they care.
Speaker 2:Amen, so good. Satan really doesn't like when pastors are healthy, did emotionally, physically, theologically well. He aims to steal, kill, destroy and divide right. So what words of wisdom do you have for pastors and their families who feel like they're spiritually oppressed? Because Satan certainly is attacking? Say something there, michael.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So the reality is, god wants to divide intimate relationships in to me, you see. So the closer those relationships are, the more the evil one wants to divide them, and he usually does it by something that sounds good, but it's usually it happens. It'll be easier if you just do this and we can come back to the $5 a day in the bank. How am I? I'm going to use a different illustration.
Speaker 3:If I have a plant that I never, ever, ever, ever water, tim, if I have a live plant that I never water and you can tell by my office, I love plants what's going to happen to that plant, tim? It's going to die. How many relationships that are just longing the way? I long to be connected to my dad, who did the best he could, who I give thanks to God for. I honor that God used him to give me life, but I just wanted to hear that I was worthy, that I had value, and the people of God stepped in and did that Same thing. If I water a plant every single day, tim, every single day, I just pour water onto it, what's going to happen to that plant? You're going to suffocate, you're going to die. It drowned, it dies. So relationships are like drip lines.
Speaker 3:How am I in the various relationships? Some require more water, like plants require more water, some require less water. If you overwater it back and forth, you're hurting the plant. You learn through relationship. We have to teach people how to love us. And so I have one staff person who says Michael, you encourage me so much. Thank you, keep encouraging me. Your words of encouragement bless me. I have another staff person who goes would you please never encourage me again, because it makes me think you don't think that I know that. So stop with the encouragement. And I said well, I can do that. It's going to happen. Sorry, it's going to happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But I promise I'm going to do a whole lot less of it. Yeah, and I promise you that. I know you don't want public acknowledgement, but you just got to suck it up and take it. Can we agree twice a year, twice a year? Can I let the congregation know what a remarkable gift you are? And they go. You promise just to. We have to know how much water we need or not need, and that comes through the power of relationship.
Speaker 2:That's right. That's right. I'm glad you used a different analogy than the math, because I stink at math, so I'm grooving with the plant analogy. I love plants too. You know my desert plants. They only need water about once a month to every six weeks. Yep, if I give it once a week, like the other kind of annual little plants back there, my annuals are so needy. You know, right now it's so hot. I got to hit those guys up at least every other day or they're going to shrivel up and die. I think that's a really, really helpful handle for understanding the diversity of needs in people.
Speaker 2:What you have my mind going to is I think you also introduced me to family systems theory, michael, come on. I mean failure of nerve, edwin Friedman and everything there. Pete Steinke I think you had me reading Pete Steinke before I even entered into my doctorate and had him as a professor. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And the height of family systems theory is differentiated and connected at the same time. Differentiated. If we go too far that way, that's divorce, that's disconnection, we obviously don't want to be there. And on the other hand, it's emotional and relational fusion. Where you start, I have to, and we're intertwined and it's really really messy. I have to and we're intertwined and it's really really messy. Your identity is laid over the top of me, but I still need to be in connection and I need to know my identity is fully grounded in Jesus.
Speaker 2:I think my favorite part and this was a pastor friend, local here pointed this out to me Philippians 13. My son actually wrote it on his arm the other day before he went and ran a race. He was running the 400 and everything. And, son, I go, do you know what? Do you know what Philippians 4.13? Dad, I know what Philippians 4.13 is. I can do all things. You're going to give me strength, right.
Speaker 2:And then I because this is my pastor friend had pointed out to me Do you know what the verse that comes right after that is? And yet it was kind of you to share in my suffering. So you see Paul saying I am, I can do it Like, the Holy Spirit lives within me, I am enough, I'm a somebody right, I'm baptized and then at the very same time, but there's no way I can possibly do this alone. You are with me in my suffering and maintaining differentiation and connection that looks different based on the personality, the life experiences, the emotional needs of the other person, and that's why curiosity, especially for first chair leaders, is so, so important, because it's going to take time to put that $5 into the bank or just the right amount of water into that relationship. Anything to add there as it relates to family systems, michael.
Speaker 3:So to be able to say to someone I'm not sure how to love you right now, Could you teach me? And so, instead of guessing to love you right now, Could you teach me? And so, instead of guessing, just ask. And if it covers the three H's the three H's is so critical Honor, honor, honor. Does it show honor to God, Does it show honor to them, Does it show honor to you? If that request rests in those three things, go for it. Do it Ask people, tell me the best way I can love you right now. And if I can't do it, then I'm going to say I don't know how to do that, but I'm willing to learn. And that power again of vulnerability, of repentance, of saying I have to have the answer to everything right now, no, I live in the one who is the answer. And so he says let me love you and the rest is going to take care of itself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Amen, hey, this has been so good I got. I got just a few more minutes, but I could talk to you for a long period of time and I know our listeners have been super, super blessed.
Speaker 2:You've you've prioritized healthy habits over the years and you also pass that along to me. I mean, some of my rotations right now are listening to, like the Model Health Show. He's one Sean Stevenson has these amazing guests on, and his most recent episode that I listened to, even this morning for about 15 minutes, was on aging and building more muscle lean muscle as we continue to get older. That's way more important. By just a little side note, let's stop talking about weight loss. Let's start talking about muscle gain, especially as we continue to get older. That's way more important. By just a little side note, let's stop talking about weight loss. Let's start talking about muscle gain, especially as we age. And so, yeah, bingo, we've got to move mass, whether it's your body weight or some kind of other weight.
Speaker 2:You were put on planet Earth to move. My goal is to move something every single day. I want to sweat every single day. I want sweat every single day. I wanna get enough water in my body that the whole system's working appropriately, because I know that in my day are going to come stressful situations and I know and science has backed it up that I'm gonna handle stress better if I've taken care of the temple of the Holy Spirit first hour of the day. Own the morning, own the day. So anything you prioritize. Obviously pickleball, I golf, there's some other kind of recreational relational things that I have in my world, but talk about healthy habits, michael.
Speaker 3:So every day my nose is on the front door of the church I'm sorry at the gym at 4 am yeah, wow, that gym opens at 4 am. I'm generally the one holding the door for people coming in and then I get in the pool and I swim for an hour to an hour and 20 minutes. I have bone conduction headsets, so I spend the first part of my swim quiet and I imagine that I'm swimming in the waters of my baptism. I'm going to start this day with the grace of God and then I'm going to put on some scripture. I'm going to listen to the same seven chapters of scripture a day for a week so I can begin to functionally memorize it. And then by the day five my mind's going everywhere, but then I'm going to hear something in it. It's going to draw me back. Then I'll listen to a podcast, and I'll listen to a number of different podcasts and then my swim is pretty much done by that point.
Speaker 3:But I've started my day refreshed, ready to go. I'm back to the office by 5.30. And generally my day is done by 3. And I'm out playing pickleball, I'm loving on the neighbors with my wife. I'm just that rhythm. And so the importance of hydration and the importance of oxygenation. Americans really suck at breathing and drinking water.
Speaker 2:That's true. That seems so simple. How can you suck at breathing? It seems pretty natural. So say more about why we're not breathing. Well, say more there.
Speaker 3:So when you get into conflict, you stop breathing.
Speaker 2:That's it.
Speaker 3:Fight, flight or freeze right.
Speaker 3:So when you're caught up into that, you stop breathing and so just learning how to take a deep breath. And then, second of all, to recognize that God is interested in you, is not interested in you being happy, he's really interested in you being content. And when you're content and you're just saying God, I don't have to be perfect today, I don't have to have all my stuff together today, but I am clearly working in my life on four things on a regular basis 1% at a time physical, emotional, spiritual, familial 1% goals. So if I walk into a room and the room looks good but there's a piece of trash on the floor, I pick it up. Why? Because now the room's 1% better.
Speaker 3:And if you can get something to change by 10%, if you change your muscle mass by 10%, your body becomes this incredible roaring fire. It's amazing. So you never get to 100%, but, man, if you're at 1% on a regular basis, your life changes dramatically and it's just doing the things that God has made as obvious for us Exercise, breathing, intimacy, relationship, encouragement just 1% of the time.
Speaker 2:That's so good. You're bringing out the coach in me. I coach high school football and we use the same. It's not about the destination, it's about the process, and the process is small, small incremental deposits as and this is for spiritual as we grow up into Jesus, who is the head, as I think of you know muscle, et cetera, the church generally. Well, what's the metaphor that the apostle Paul uses? It's the body right and is our body atrophying? Are we aging? Are we and even like a local church you can look at the metaphor there or are we? Are we growing up? And and we're lovingly challenging one another? We're a family, we're growing up through difficult conversations. This entire conversation has been the let's, let's all grow up together. My growth is going to look a little bit different than your growth, but because my gifts are a little bit different than your gifts, but, man, I'm growing and it's fun. Join the journey right. Say more there.
Speaker 3:I'm going to take this down a little bit of a different road, and this is a Peter Scazzaro. I'm a big Peter Scazzaro fan. One cannot be spiritually mature and emotionally immature at the same time, and the greatest challenges of our church today and I believe this is that we are a sea of one-year-old baby Christians. So you can be in a church for 60 years and still be a baby Christian of one year old, longing for milk rather instead of meat, and so the great task before is to be highly invitational but highly challenging. We're going to invite you into something amazing and it's going to rock you to the core right.
Speaker 3:I know somebody once said you know, I thought when I became a Christian it meant more than writing a check and sitting in a pew. What that whole understanding I'm being surrounded by and I'm surrounding people to help them to grow up into him. Who is the head? So when the apostle, when Jesus, said you must be perfect, as your father in heaven is perfect the word there for perfect is mature he wants us to mature emotionally. He wants us to mature spiritually, to grow up, and too often the church is a place where people are given a green light to be five-year-olds foolishly fighting people instead of love and joy and peace and patience and kindness and goodness, gentleness and faithfulness. That's what God says. This is what happens when you grow up into me, so good.
Speaker 2:I have spoken a lot over the years on this podcast about honestly addressing areas of growth in our individual churches and in our church body, and there are certain issues that I can't even publicly talk about anymore. Yeah, and that's unfortunate, and I've said I'm sorry if I've been too frank, but I'm hopeful that the right people in the right rooms can honestly have conversation that leads toward growth heart, body, mind, spirit for the quantity and quality of every person, from pastors to just the everyday plumber to see their life is on mission. That's the one biggest thing that you've taught me and if you're going into mission this is what Jesus invited the disciples into the mission is going to get messy and I'm calling, I'm going to be with you. There, through every Jesus is the high invitation Come, follow me. Oh, and then go learn what it's like to die. That doesn't sound like it's low challenge. Jesus gives the greatest challenge of all time. You're going to be my witnesses Martireo, jerusalem, judea, samaria, to the ends of the earth.
Speaker 2:And sometimes I feel like you know I don't know that the LCMS in general is creating the space for conversations of high invitation and hospitality, all of our churches being places where everybody can meet and follow Jesus here. And man, I'm inviting you up into this, and meaning up into this means having conversations about our functional and dysfunctional emotions. Functional and dysfunctional emotions and I think, as German Lutherans maybe stoic and passive we have more growth, we have more growth room there. And I feel like final point, I feel like there are so many precious saints in all of our pews and chairs that are waiting for pastors and leaders to notice them, love them and call them to something more in their respective vocations. And yeah, I want to be a part of that, you want to be a part of that, and our congregations are places that are like this is what we're living. It's high challenge, high invitation, and I just honestly want all of the congregations in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod to experience how fun this is. Michael Thoughts there.
Speaker 3:Model the behavior you want to see. Don't wait for other people to get it. Just do it. Don't worry about what other people are doing. God will put whoever in their path with law or gospel. In the meantime, do the work that God has put in front of you. Recognize that the goal is not to get people to come here a paid professional. The goal is to get someone who has been touched by the grace of Jesus that you're going to be in their life. Can I finish with a fun story today?
Speaker 2:Let's go.
Speaker 3:I go to a pretty rough barbershop. I know that sounds funny, but it's a rough barbershop and they call me preacher and whatever.
Speaker 2:You're in Lincoln. Is there a rough part of Lincoln?
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, oh yeah, oh man, there's a, there's a hood where there's a traffic light that doesn't work.
Speaker 2:I'm just saying it's tough, no but it's tough on the streets in Lincoln.
Speaker 3:Anyway, go ahead Actually it's more than you realize, but it's a great city and a great place.
Speaker 2:Love it, love it.
Speaker 3:Anyway, at this barbershop, so that the F word is flying around all over the place. And I'm there getting my hair cut by my favorite barber, cam he's a great guy and somebody leans over and goes, prancher, can you say the F word? And I open my eyes and go yeah, yeah, I can say the F word. And he goes and the whole room gets quiet and another barber goes over. Would you say it now out loud? I said so. You want me to use the F word right now, in public, completely silent.
Speaker 3:I go okay, and people lean in so dang funny. And I go forgiven. That's what every single one of you is forgiven. You may think the world is all effed up, but God believes that there's more than enough forgiveness, has delivered to you more than enough forgiveness you could ever imagine. I didn't think about that. It's just saying being in a place and a space and God doing something, and that's what the Holy Spirit does. He'll give you the words, he'll give you what needs to be done. In the meantime, lean in, get your hair cut in kind of rough places and love the person God puts in front of you and be amazed.
Speaker 2:This has been one of my. I get to talk with so many people, so much to learn and top five podcasts. Man, I've ever been a part of so many emotions. My cup overflows and I am filled with joy heading into Thursday, friday and Saturday and Sunday of this most holy of weeks. Reverend Dr Michael Echocamp, if people want to connect with you and just pray for you, how can they do so?
Speaker 3:Yeah, just reach out to me at my email at mechocampatchristlincolnorg.
Speaker 2:Praying for you and the mission of God's people there at Christ. And yeah, jesus is. We're Christ Greenfield, christ Lincoln, all these amazing Lutheran churches trying to advance the cause of Christ in the hood of. We got a hood in Gilbert too, michael. It gets rough. We actually had some boys it's not a great story the Gilbert goons. They were called Some boys with families with too much money and disconnected parents and they went on like a rage rampage about a year ago or so, and that's in the newspapers from time to time.
Speaker 2:So, gilbert, gilbert's a rough spot too, but we all, we all need Jesus and Jesus is so in love with you, michael, and thank you for passing that love on to me and to your congregation and to so many, so many leaders. This is lead time. Please like, subscribe, comment wherever it is you take in these, and this was an encouraging conversation, these encouraging conversations, and we promise to continue to invite wonderful men and women filled with the Holy Spirit into Jesus centered conversations into the future. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day. Thanks so much, michael. Love you brother.
Speaker 3:Love you back, my friend.
Speaker 1:You Good day. Go and make it a great day. Thanks so much, michael. Love you, brother. Love you back, my friend. You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theuniteleadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.