Voices of a Business School
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Voices of a Business School
Speak Like a Leader
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Speechwriter Simon Lancaster — who has written for members of Tony Blair's Cabinet and CEOs of Nokia and Nestlé — sets out the techniques behind the secret language of leadership.
Simon Lancaster
Get inspired at AVT Business School: https://www.avt.dk/
It's over 20 years now that I've been um a full-time speechwriter and I feel blessed. I discovered my niche and I've never looked back. It's really, really simple. Ethos plus logos plus pathos equals success. As soon as you think about communication, specifically business communication through that prism, I think you can quickly see what the problem is. That the focus all goes on the logic. They need to be speaking to instincts, then emotions, then logic. Anyone who starts with logic is bound to fail because that's simply not the way the brain works.
SPEAKER_00However, on the episode today, interviewed by our own Jesper Bergman, is no other than one of the world's top speechwriters, Simon Lancaster. Besides being an incredible speechwriter, Simon is also a best-selling author, an executive professor, and a TED talker. So you're definitely in for a treat. Simon has written incredible speeches for politicians and for the CEOs of many of the biggest companies in the world, including Unilever, Nokia, and Nestle. So when we ask what does it take to speak like a leader, there is, without a doubt, no greater than Simon. Did you guys know that there is a secret language of leadership? Sounds intriguing, right? In this episode, Simon sets out the techniques that you can use to speak like a leader. Being one of the kindest and most insightful people, we can't wait for you guys to be let in on his wise guidance as well. So without further ado, thanks for tuning in and let's dive into it.
SPEAKER_01Thank you very much for joining us on today's podcast, Simon Lancaster. Simon Lancaster runs Bespoke, a specialist speechwriting agency. And over the last 15 years, Simon has written numerous speeches for top politicians and business leaders. And he also runs uh courses in creative speech writing and he hosts events for speech writers as well. Along that, he also teaches on the executive MBA here at ABT Business School. And he also teaches, coaches, and facilitates discussions around speech writing to some of our corporate clients. So thank you very much for joining us today, Simon.
SPEAKER_02Jesper, it's so good to be talking to you. And I'm just so sorry that we're not together in Copenhagen because we've had some great moments over there at AVT Business School, the courses on the language of leadership. I mean, genuinely, like in my heart, um, I I just I feel such affection because we've seen such moments of transformation going on. We do this uh two-day course where we do storytelling, and uh the participants on those courses they go through quite a journey, you know, and some of them come in a little bit cautious about whether they can open up, whether they can change their style of communication. And by the end of day two, I mean, you know, we we're having some moments in in that room. So anyway, if I I'm just sorry I'm not in Copenhagen with you.
SPEAKER_01Well, you'll be here soon enough, Simon. So uh so that's brilliant. Yeah. And we're looking forward. Um, but to start off, let's get a couple of reactions from you to first of all, of course, condolences to the death of the queen. She's reigned for over 70 years. What's your take upon, you know, how how do people actually react to the death of the Queen in the UK?
SPEAKER_02Do you know what? It's it's really, really strange. Last Thursday, when the news came out, I was actually at a book launch in London with with my old boss Alan Johnson, who was a politician that I worked for, a really great guy. He was one of these people who had been a postman and then he'd been in the trade unions and then he'd gone into politics and um very almost became prime minister, actually. He was home secretary, shadow chancellor, did very senior jobs. Um, but he was launching his book on Thursday when the news came through. And so it was a very, very um strange evening. And even more bizarrely, I'd been with Alan Johnson on 9-11 as well. We'd been together back um, you know, September the 11th, 2001, and it felt like uh it felt like a similar kind of um magnitude, actually. And I you know, the way that people the way that people respond to big news like 9-11 or the death of a queen is really, I mean, it can go either way. In actual fact, the response on Thursday night was very similar to the way I responded on 9-11. It ended up like I didn't really want to go home, you know. It was this, and everyone just wanted to stay together. And we we so we ended up on Thursday night. Everyone stayed out until um like about three o'clock in the morning. We all went to a piano bar near the embankments and were standing around the piano singing along with um what were the classics? There was some ABBA there, um you know, Beatles songs, oasis songs, and stuff like that. And everyone ended up drinking far too much. And so on Friday, I I and I'm sure everyone else who'd been at the party was in the most shocking state, couldn't move at all. But it's interesting the way that people deal with these um kind of events because you do go through a sort of process. Obviously, you know, people talk about um denial, uh, anger, bargaining, acceptance, all of these things that you go through. And you see this almost at um a national um level that I think to start with, there there was, you know, um just a bit of kind of shock, I think, from everyone. And then you you get the acceptance, and now there's you know, there's a bit of the anger is beginning to seep in, and you know, the discourse, you know, there's uh I think it's about one in four people in Britain are Republicans, so we'd just have done with the monarchy. Uh, Prince Charles has done done some pretty um courageous, uh, which isn't as complimentary as it sounds, because some courageous things since becoming king, not least appointing Prince Andrew to be his kind of um his standing, uh, should he fall ill. Um and this is um a very controversial decision. You know, um there's uh it's it's very tricky. He he went to do a signing. I don't know whether you've seen this video, he did a signing um he had um in Hillsborough and he completely lost his rag. And of course, um, you know, the Queen was famous for her self-discipline, her restraint, her complete emotional control. Almost her emotional control was almost a false at times, you know. And and Charles has been king for like four days, and already he's throwing a complete wobbly about his pen leak, and it's kind of, you know, uh, you've got to keep a lid on that. I mean, all of us who work in business who are who are professionals, you know, we have things go wrong every now and then uh when I've been presented at AT, you know, I I've wound up with ink on my hands. I I try to, you know, I I try not to start screaming, shouting, and swearing at everyone when it happens though.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, if you haven't seen it, um you can certainly look up uh King Charles signing ceremony uh at Northern England uh Hillsborough Castle, and where he said, I can't bear this bloody thing. So um has he actually responded to it or somebody, you know, have they actually you know commented on it or anything? I'm just trying to keep it silent.
SPEAKER_02They're they're keeping silent, which I'm sure is absolutely the right um strategy. Um, but I he needs to watch this, you know. We're we're we're a democracy and it's a constitutional monarchy. Um, and that uh one in four people are Republicans in the country. And I think one of the reasons that we tolerate that is because the Queen was always perceived as being someone who was apolitical, who wouldn't push herself forward, who could keep a lid on herself. And I with Charles, there's always been a fear that maybe his character and temperament, you know, were slightly against that. And and what we saw, um, what we saw with that pen incident was someone, you know, yeah. And I mean fine if it's a one-off. I think people will be sympathetic and charitable. He's going through some stuff, but we've known Charles for a long while. He's not new on the scene, we've known him for 70 years, and this idea of him being a little bit this exasperation, complete exasperation, is kind of in keeping with what with what we've already always said and feared about him, actually.
SPEAKER_01Oh interesting. And um, but it certainly seems like you know, there's huge respect around the queen, uh, at least, you know, from from the cues and how it's being transmitted um throughout the world, I think.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, absolutely. Even even people who were staunch Republicans have huge respect for the Queen and have huge respect for her. People who were fiercely against the monarchy, you know, they see in her someone who was absolutely admirable, a leader who was an exemplar of every kind of virtue, actually, you know, um, humility, service, duty, respect, everything that you would look to see in a leader. Um, she she did embody. And so you're absolutely right. I think um everyone is sorry, but equally, you know, this appears to have been a good death. You know, she's um she was working on on Tuesday, she passed on Thursday. And I think, you know, probably all of us would long for um uh a death that was was like like that. And so I think it's the kind it's it's a life that you can celebrate as well. So I don't I don't think it's cause for sadness so much as celebration, really.
unknownYeah, sure.
SPEAKER_01Simon, how how did you actually become interested in speech writing?
SPEAKER_02Well, I always wanted to be a songwriter, Jesper. So literally from the age of 11, I was writing pretty much a song a day. Um, and um when I I left school, I was uh playing piano in a restaurant in London and still writing a song a day, and all the time I was sending my songs to record companies, and the response was always the same. It was, eh, you know, and and then I I tried to get better, try to get better, and literally I just um I plugged away at this for probably about um 10 years or 15 years. In my mid-20s, though, I was like, okay, I'm never gonna be um I'm never gonna be Lennon or McCartney or even Gary Barlow, you know. Um and so probably um another career beckoned. And so I started, I got into politics, I worked as a private secretary, and then my kind of the knack for words, I suppose, and some of the devices that I'd learnt writing songs, things like metaphor, imagery, rhythm, all of these tricks that you you play when you're writing songs, they they were very, very transferable um to speech writing. And where and when uh but the feedback was completely different. When I wrote songs, no one wanted to hear them. Whereas when I was writing speeches, people were saying, This is pretty good, actually. This is pretty good. And and so I I discovered my niche and I've never looked back. And I mean it it is it's over 20 years now that I've been um a full-time speechwriter, and I feel blessed, you know. So, you know, we're some of us are lucky enough to get into something which we both love doing, and and people think we're pretty good at doing it. And I certainly feel that I've found my my niche and that I'm just gonna keep doing it until the day I die, you know, and hopefully I'll have a death like the Queen as well, where I'm I write a speech on Tuesday and I'm dead on Thursday. That's a nice positive idea, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Great. Um, so Simon, just um take us through the the art of rhetoric, where you discovered also Aristotle has has actually written, you know, early on about uh uh the art of rhetoric.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so this came to me, I think, after I'd been a speechwriter for three or four years, and I was just kind of bumbling along, you know, writing speeches like I'd write songs. And then my wife's uncle, who's a classicist, said, Well, if you're writing speeches, you must read the great books on rhetoric. You need to read Aristotle, Cicero, Quintilian. And so I started going back to ancient Greece and ancient Rome, and all of a sudden, all of these amazing names for uh techniques and principles that I've been applying unconsciously for years, started becoming apparent. And indeed, Aristotle, his big thing in his book Rhetoric, which is almost as good a book as my own books on um communication, well, what he says is that great speeches need these three things: ethos, which is the credibility of the speaker, logos, which is the logic or apparent logic of the argument, and pathos, which is the emotions of the audience. And that's his formula, and it's really, really simple. Ethos plus logos plus pathos, equal success. Um, and as soon as you think about communication, specifically business communication through that prism, I think you can quickly see what the problem is. That the focus all goes on the logic without regard to the ethos or the pathos. And so basically they're the two things where you need to push up the dials, make sure that your character's coming through, that people know you're trustworthy, they know that you've got good intentions, connecting people emotionally as well, getting the pathos going, which you do through storytelling and through imagery and through the use of history. And so that's where you can make a big difference as a speechwriter, ethos and pathos.
SPEAKER_01You know, you when you do these causes, do you often say that they it's only one in five people who actually trust politics political and business leaders to tell the truth? So hence is really hard to get that you know through to people. Do you do you see, you know, is is it because of the pathos trying to get that emotional connection to people that is causing the problem, or or is it is it a lack of character or credibility, basically? How do you see that play together?
SPEAKER_02I think it's how you present yourself that when we know someone is a CEO, then we're thinking of them as a CEO. And as a CEO, we understand what CEOs are there to do. They're there to grow their business. They're literally under a legal duty to maximize returns to shareholders. And that's what we've got in mind. So basically, we're sitting there and thinking, you're a CEO, you want my money. That's it, that's all. You want my money. So if they lead with the I am the CEO of this uh company, we're gonna be skeptical and cynical, suspicious of them. Whereas if they start off saying, I'm a human being, I'm a father, I'm a husband, I'm a man, I'm a musician, you know, what whatever, then we're like, ah, now I'm connecting with you. I'm connecting with you in a completely different way. And and I trust you. If you're coming to me as a family man or as a as a as a musician or a team player, someone who plays football or hockey or whatever you play, you know, then we're like, ah, now I I can see some connections with you. And that's that's how you how you overcome it. In short, so I'm always about finding the human connection between people.
SPEAKER_01Great. And you also discovered, you know, how the neuroscientists basically link uh or why, why the, or should I say, why the art of rhetoric actually works. Um you you you basically discovered, you know, how the brain works as as well as opposed to initially thinking, okay, this this might work, or this it seems to work.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, uh absolutely. So it was um it was working with some um some very senior business people, actually, where they where they were asking me to look at the neuroscience that they were looking at as as they developed a new product, and they were thinking about the branding of that product, and they were they were talking about how we've got to connect with instincts first and then emotions and then logic. And I was like, wow, this is like basically your ethos, pathos, logos. And and I think it's a great validation, actually, of um of what Aristotle was saying that it near according to neuroscience, it still works. So you need to speak to people's instincts first. This is where we start processing information, whatever it is, when you're meeting someone for the first time, or you're seeing you're going through your emails, or you're hearing a presentation, whatever it is, you start with an instinctive response. And so this is where people need to be hitting first. They need to be speaking to instincts, then emotions, then logic. Anyone who starts with logic is bound to fail because that's simply not the way the brain works.
SPEAKER_01Oh, perfect. And uh if you were to give um listeners, you know, just one advice about how to improve, you know, to emotionally connect, would would you describe one tool uh such, you know, whether that's stories or using either metaphors or or rhyme or where?
SPEAKER_02Well, if I can be cheeky, if I can be cheeky, I'd like to give your listeners three bits of advice. And the first bit of advice is that you should always speak in threes, which is why I'm gonna give you three bits of advice. Um, so that this is the rule of three, and this is something that the ancient Romans and ancient Greek rhetoricians used to advocate, but it's also something that has been checked. The University of California did a study in 2013 that showed people are more likely to believe arguments that come in three parts than four parts. So that's my first bit of advice, speaking threes. Second bit of advice, speak in images, paint pictures for people, whether you're doing that through metaphor, through story, or whatever it is, you know, most of the sensory neurons are devoted to processing visual information and so always give people pictures and images. Third bit of advice, always remember that the people that you're trying to connect with are human beings, human beings just like you, with a need to be involved just like you, a need to be respected just like you, a need to belong just like you. So give them all of that, make them feel respected, make them feel admired, make them feel like they belong. And if you do that, you're meeting some of their deepest needs, and in return, they'll give you all the support you're looking for.
SPEAKER_01Currently, is there a business leader or political leader that you think is doing a particularly good job of actually you know connecting to the emotions with people, whatever, whatever you think is is yeah?
SPEAKER_02I I will give you a great and maybe surprising example, um, actually, and that is Megan Markle. Um, so it plays back to the conversation we were having about the monarchy um just earlier. But Megan Markle is is quite phenomenal. She blows my mind actually. Um, I first uh came across her when she was on a panel uh speaking about diversity and gender representation at One Young World. Now, One Young Worlds, um, I would suggest all of your um all of your listeners check it out actually. It's a a fabulous progressive organization of young leaders from around the world that meets somewhere different around the world um every year. The speeches that are given there are nothing short of phenomenal, and some huge names have been there um over the years. Everyone from kind of Bob Geldof to um Malala, you know, all incredible people. And anyway, one of my clients was given a speech there that Richard written in uh 2014, and I and I caught uh Meghan Markle's panel, and I thought and she had this brilliant story uh that she was telling about when she was a young girl and she was doing studying social science and they were watching some adverts, and she'd seen an advert for washing up liquids that had talked about how women all over America were throwing away their gloves because of this new washing up liquid. And they were analyzing this, and um, she was like, Well, why are they just saying women? Not just women that wash up, and anyway, she um she wrote the CEO of Proctor and Gamble, um, whose washing up liquid it was, and um the CEO changed the advert in response to her letter, and so it then said people all over America rather than women all over America, and so as a 10-year-old girl, you can watch this clip on YouTube, you see her interviews, and I mean what an extraordinary young girl she is. You can see she's she's quite something. Um, you can see she's gonna wind up um doing something important. Um and anyway, she told this story, and her message was basically if you see something you don't like in the world, um speak out and change it. And I mean, of course, it's that ethos which has run through her life, which has seen her um uh come in into a bit of a running against the British royal family. But I think she's an extraordinary communicator, she has it um incredible empathy. I think you can see when she speaks, she's brilliant at storytelling. And um, so I I would advise your your uh your listeners to check her out. There's check out the speech that she did at the United Nations in 2015, before she met Harry, before she'd even met Harry. Um, and and you're you're like, hang on a sec, this woman's good. You know, she she's good. And and I mean, I I I think just watch her. I wouldn't be surprised if she winds up president of the United States. Um, I I mean she is a phenomenal woman.
SPEAKER_01All right, she's she's actually interested in politics.
SPEAKER_02Well, she's interested in change. I mean, that's what she says. Okay, and um, you know, so I think she'll go wherever you're wherever you can achieve change. And I think she's doing that at the moment because she has this unique profile around the world. But I would have thought um, you know, if if you could get your hands on the leaves of power that they have in the Oval Office, you'd probably do quite a bit, I would have thought.
SPEAKER_01All right. Simon, you you are famous around the world actually for delivering a quick speech structure. Um and you post also uh on Twitter, on on YouTube, TikTok, I've seen. Um, not myself, but uh but but you showed me that you also post on uh TikTok. Um so would would you just run through what what those um steps are basically in in it in when you are uh composing a speech?
SPEAKER_02Um yeah. So this is a really brilliant, quick, off-the-shelf structure that you can use, folks, anytime that someone um says to you, can you just quickly come up with um something something to say? It's a great way of honing your argument and coming up with something powerful. And there are six steps to it, okay? So step one, three breathless sentences, sound urgent, sound excited, like you're hyperventilating, grabs attention from the author. Step two, three repetitive sentences, three sentences in which you repeat the opening clause. Repeating the opening clause makes you sound strong. Repeating the opening clause makes you sound statesmanlike, repeating the opening clause makes you sound sincere. Then you move on to step number three. Step number three is three contrasting sentences or opposites. So this is about old and young, rich and poor, black or white. It's about helping everyone. So this makes you sound like you're balanced, like you're weighing something up. Step number four is metaphor. Will you depict something as something which it is not? Metaphors plant images in our mind. You see, I'm using a metaphor there. You plant images in our mind that you hope will take roots and blossom and grow, but you don't want to get carried away if you can taste sick in your mouth while you're saying it, you've gone too far. And you need to save room for step number five, which is exaggeration, where you go completely over the top, because this kind of speech will change anyone's mind of anything, anywhere, anytime. And I absolutely guarantee to you, with all my heart, that this is gonna make you sound like Obama. So a bit of exaggeration. And then, yeah, end with a rhyme. Step six, end with a rhyme, because rhyme is sublime and rhyme works every time, and rhyme doesn't cost a dime. So that's basically it, Jasper. You've seen me do those six steps so many times uh before. But yeah, I do this kind of improv routine where um I'll ask people to throw me a topic on the spot and I'll instantly improvise a speech using those techniques.
SPEAKER_01Ah, brilliant. I've not asked Simon uh to whether he would actually do a speech on the fly, but I promise you, if you've not seen him doing it, you can actually Google Simon Lancaster speak like a leader, and he's done a TED talk, has been viewed over four million times or whatever it is now, Simon. Um so you can actually see him improvise a speech on the fly in a TED talk. He's not been preempted, at least. Um, and he's done that numerous times uh here at AVT or to the different uh audience that he has been teaching and helping out with their speech writing skills. Simon, do you want to do one or should we leave the audience?
SPEAKER_02I'm really happy to do one. I'm really happy to do one. It's a shame your listeners aren't in because it would be one other I you know they they could throw a suggestion, otherwise, the the the suspicion is if you give me one that people will think it was a setup. But I'm I'm I'm very happy to take your weirdest idea, Jasper, and run with it now if you want to frame me right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, let's let's go with it. Um of course in Europe, you know, there's this energy crisis um we are looking into that will cause major oppsets uh for businesses and and and and people in general, I think. I'm I'm sure now you're preoccupied with with you know uh the death of the queen and new uh king, but but again, you know, there's a huge concern, you know, with being dependent on Russia for for gas, etc. I was I was thinking on that note you would make an argument for there will there will be no cr energy crisis uh this winter. So uh so I'm thinking, you know, it's so I don't know what will basically be the solution, but um but uh but but I'm just thinking, you know, a counter-argument. You know, why why should we not be concerned about the the energy crisis? You know, the and I and I I promise to the listeners, you know, uh not asked Simon. Um so again, we hope that we will see you and you'll have the chance to experience uh Simon Lancaster doing it uh on the fly. And again, otherwise, um you can look up Simon Lancaster, speak like a leader on uh YouTube, and you will see him doing it on the fly in a TED Talk. Yeah, and um so I don't know. I are you ready, Simon?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it, let's do it.
SPEAKER_01Okay, thank you.
SPEAKER_02Conflict in Ukraine, soaring energy prices, fears about winter, people are worried about whether they'll be able to heat their homes, people are worried about whether their elderly relatives are going to be okay, people are worried about the costs of everything these days. Instead of fearing the coming winter, today I come to you with a message of reassurance. Things are not spiraling out of control in the way you fear. In actual fact, behind the scenes, governments, regulators, and all sorts of actions are taking action to protect your best interests. And this will ensure that this winter you are not just safe, you are all secure. There is a fear that this crisis has been spiraling out of control, but I can today make to all of your listeners a reassurance from the bottom of my heart. We have done everything it is conceivably possible to do to safeguard energy and to bring costs down in your interests. We've been investing in securing supplies, in making sure supplies are sustainable, in making sure supplies are safe. And I absolutely assure you that this is no cause for you to worry. And I very much hope that in a few months' time I'm not gonna have to say sorry.
SPEAKER_01All right, thank you, Simon. I know it's it's hard when you also with the evidence, you know, so so even though it's uh logical, but you certainly appeal to my um instinctive brain as well. So so thank you very much for doing it, Simon.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, I think I tell you what, on that point though, it is you know, I I that's like a fun exercise there. But you do see you if you have a look at the way that um prime ministers, presidents um around the world are communicating about the energy crisis, that they are they are all depicting their actions in lists of threes. You know, there are three things we have to do: safe, secure, sustainable. Well, what actions are we taking? We're doing this, we're doing that, we're doing the other. They're all using the rule of three because they know it works. The other thing they're all using is is is metaphor. And I don't know how discourse has gone in uh Denmark actually about this, but uh we're talking about it over here as a storm, you know. So a storm um makes out that this is a force of nature, that the reason for the current energy crisis is is it's a force of nature, it's not because of a failure of regulation, not because of governments, you know, rather instead this just happened, the same like like weather just happens. Um and so that's interesting. They're using metaphor there to frame um it, and it depicts them as then the captain of the ship of state having to navigate these stormy waters. And you know, of course, we understand that you don't rock the boat when you're navigating stormy waters. So it primes us to get behind our Prime Minister and win support. So you those six steps, you do see them really being used, even though my speech wasn't very good, it was a bit ridiculous, a bit illogical. Nevertheless, the the devices in there very much are playing a role in the debate on all this at the moment.
SPEAKER_01Oh, perfect. No, thank you much for uh joining us here today. We will see you shortly, but I hope the listeners got some good takeaways, some techniques to use in their daily lives, and um we hope that you keep listening in and we might see Simon back here in the studio, perhaps. So, thank you very much, Simon, for for joining us.
SPEAKER_02Very much looking forward to my return to Copenhagen. Thank you, Jesper.