Ready Set Coach Podcast

How to License Your Coaching IP with Janet Alexandersson of Piggy Bank Legal

• Emily Merrell and Lexie Smith • Season 2 • Episode 101

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 In this episode, Lexie Smith sits down with Janet Alexandersson to explore the exciting and lucrative world of licensing coaching intellectual property (IP). Janet emphasizes the importance of finding your niche and being confident in your offerings, especially when transitioning from one-on-one coaching to larger institutional clients like corporations and universities. They highlight the critical balance between having a strong offer and understanding the market's needs, encouraging coaches to confidently present their curriculum ideas while also being open to negotiation.

Janet shares invaluable tips on how to navigate the complexities of corporate and university partnerships. She stresses the importance of having a clear understanding of your IP’s value and how to present it effectively. Janet provides actionable insights for coaches looking to expand their reach. She also touches on the evolving nature of negotiation, reminding listeners that preparation and self-belief are key to success. Whether you’re a seasoned coach or just starting, this episode is packed with practical advice to help you leverage your expertise and unlock new revenue streams.


Here’s what you’ll learn: 

  • Learn how to license your coaching IP to corporations and universities for significant revenue potential.
  • Discover the range of pricing for licensing agreements, starting from $50,000 annually to over $500,000 for comprehensive packages.
  • Explore which areas of coaching—like health and wellness—are particularly marketable to corporate clients and educational institutions.
  • Gain insights on identifying and reaching the right departments or individuals within universities and corporations.
  • Learn how to create an effective curriculum outline and develop tiered packages that meet varying client needs.
  • Discover key negotiation tactics, including how to set leverage points and handle unexpected changes during discussions.
  • Understand what credentials or proof of success are most valued by corporations and universities when considering your IP.
  • Learn the importance of adaptability with your offerings and pricing as you negotiate.
  • Hear how infusing creativity into your brand and services can make you more memorable and appealing to potential clients.
  • Recognize the significance of believing in the value of your offerings to communicate and negotiate with institutional buyers successfully.


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Lexie Smith  00:02

Hey guys, you are stuck with Lexie today, and I'm here with such an exciting and fun guest. We're going to dive into all the things, but Janet, first, I have to ask for everyone. I know the answer you guys, but where in the world are you calling in from?


Janet Alexandersson  00:19

I'm calling in from Gothenburg, Sweden,


Lexie Smith  00:22

which? What time is it for you? It's 10am PST, in California right now. So what time is it for you?


Janet Alexandersson  00:28

It's 7pm 7pm Yeah.


Lexie Smith  00:32

Can I just give this girl the biggest shout out in the world? Because we have Ready Set coach events, you know, afternoon, my time. I feel like you've come on calls, like the middle of the night, and I don't know how you do it. How do you do it coffee? Or do you just completely work on us hours?


Janet Alexandersson  00:48

I actually don't drink coffee. So it's not that. It's just like I


Lexie Smith  00:52

Teach me your ways.


Janet Alexandersson  00:56

It's just fun to show up to these events and I make them a priority. I think that's the only reason. Plus, I do have you as clients, so I'm already sort of gassed at that hour.


Lexie Smith  01:04

Very Okay. Fair Fair enough. Fair enough. Okay, so we are joining you in Sweden today, whether you are joining us audio wise or on YouTube. Shout out what? Let's dive right in. So, Janet, tell everyone who you are and what you do.


Janet Alexandersson  01:21

So I am an entrepreneur at heart, and I've had my own law firm since 2007 now. And what I do at this point is that I help professionals and entrepreneurs take whatever little concoctions that they've made from their knowledge and made courses and assets and frameworks and whatever they have made, and turn that into a licensable product that larger corporations, organizations and universities can purchase, and that adds a revenue stream to them, usually quite a big revenue stream, and it's annual, so it's reoccurring. It's essentially a way to rent out your knowledge, and that's what I help people


Lexie Smith  01:57

do. Okay, this is gonna turn into a very selfish episode, you guys. But like, I think you'll be here for it. So you, you caught my ear with the word university context, you guys, if you, if you're new to the show, like, you got a whole lot of episodes to get to know who I am. But a quick reminder, my very first coaching babies, I'm a PR and business development coach, so I have ample curriculum and trainings and templates that I've created over the years in the realm of PR and I have had my mother in my ear for years saying, Can't you, like, get this sold to a university you always complain about I'm not teaching kids the right things. So my question for you is, like, how do you do that? Like, do you know, like, or do people coming to you and they already have the contact in place, you're just kind of buttoning it up for them? Or do you have any insights and how you you get there, you get in front of people in that room? Yeah.


Janet Alexandersson  03:01

So some people come because they have a connection to, like, how what do I even sell them? But some people come and, like, the IP is in my head. I don't even know what I want to create yet, but you have something, so you have a leg up already. So what I do is, like, a blend of business advisory and legal. So the first part is, what I think you would be interested in, is figuring out, like, what is your optimal products, but also who is your optimal market? So sort of packaging it to something that would be appealing to universities, and then setting up a strategy for reaching out to them, presenting this to them, because they have a different buying cycle than their normal corporates, and it takes longer. So like understanding that, and then also understanding why they purchase, which I think is a bit different than like selling to clients, even selling B to B. So yeah, that's just like understanding that when you teach someone and it's like an end business product, you want it to be quite comprehensive. Universities are not as interested in comprehensive because they need that their students pass the course.


Lexie Smith  04:04

Oh, okay. What usually happens


Janet Alexandersson  04:09

is that all of my clients have to dial back what they have already created into something much simpler, which is easy for all of you, because the leading is much easier than creating more. It's not always easy. Sometimes it's painful, because you have to, like, exclude something, but you're usually don't have to create anything else. You just have to dial back and then start having the right conversations. So yeah,


Lexie Smith  04:31

oh my god. So I have so many questions. Okay, so first, how did you get in? I mean, I know Boyer, you went to law school, but how did you zone in on this niche? Like, what's the backstory on that? Yeah,


Janet Alexandersson  04:45

so I've always been quite a creative person, and I know you've heard like, some tidbits about me at some point, so you know that I like creating things, and I also realized that my favorite clients were also creative, and sort of the Venn diagram. Here is, like, I love creative entrepreneurs, and they always make the most interesting IP as in, like, courses, frameworks, whatever. And I just love working with them. So I honed in on Who's my favorite type of client, and they, they were doing this. They needed what I was offering. So that's kind of a backwards way of doing business, I guess. But for me, it's it really fell into, like, the overlap of everything that I'm good at seeing, like the big vision and the strategy for business negotiations is also in my wheelhouse, and then the legal is kind of the smaller part of it at this point. So that's kind of how I got into it. And now it's just so much fun seeing, especially women, being able to add really big revenue streams without adding to their to do lists.


Lexie Smith  05:46

I mean, I think this is really transferable advice, no matter what type of coach you are, and it's something that Emily and I back when we were leading the ready site group program live which, sorry, guys, we aren't at the moment, come hang out with us in the community. But one of the pieces of advice we would give coaches who had been coaching was at some point, whether that's six months in one year in depends how quickly you're finding success, to pause and look back at Who do you like working with, who's seen success in your programs. Can you tailor? Can you change things? Can you adapt? Can you narrow in further? Because why the heck do we want to work with people we don't like? If there's an opportunity to like with, to work with people we do like? So I love hearing that side of your story. Super smart,


Janet Alexandersson  06:33

yeah, but it's also I can see why people hesitate to make the jump, because it is a little bit scary, because you're saying no to other people yes


Lexie Smith  06:40

and say no to any money is challenging, especially when you're an entrepreneur and you don't have anyone other than yourself who is giving you that paycheck. So, yeah,


Janet Alexandersson  06:49

yeah. But it's also like, the benefit on the other end is, once you're super dialed in, and you're very much able to offer something comprehensive to that type of client who wants to go deep, you can charge differently. So it's gonna, it's gonna be a win for you regardless, and you're also more memorable


Lexie Smith  07:05

to be honest. Yeah, I totally agree. Now, back to this being a selfish episode for Lexie Smith, so let's talk about corporate and university. You kind of already teed up there's different buying cycles first. Let's give everyone a very broad, high level understanding of some range of revenue potential. I completely understand this is going to range. But, you know, let's say an average, small coach just getting started can charge three to 5k for their course. When you package it up and you sell it as IP and you license it to a company. Is there a general range or revenue opportunity that just any number you can give us to wrap our heads around it? Yeah,


Janet Alexandersson  07:51

I'll give you a tiny caveat. So one thing you can do, either you can sell something that is sort of standalone, or you can sell something that is a tag along. So the standalone s is kind of what your course would be. It's this. It's its own thing. Some of us have smaller things that we could be like, Oh, I know how to add an AI component to this existing curriculum. So they sell that to upgrade something that they already have. But let's say you have a standalone thing. So that would be a smaller price point, usually, but a standalone thing for universities and large corporations or government organizations, I would say at least, starting at for the annual license, 50k and up, and that's for like, not even a white labeled or adding any consulting hours or anything like fancy, that would be the range, and then I had clients go up to four or 500k


Lexie Smith  08:46

annual. Wow, wow. Okay. Are you seeing certain areas of expertise being more marketable for corporations and universities, like, is it okay? Health coaches, for example, tend to have the most success. Or this type of coach, or is there a given vertical? Because I can imagine, if you come to me and let me make something up, you're a knitting, knitting coach that might not be as marketable to a university. I don't know. I could be wrong here, but is there like a type of coach or a lane that you see tends to be more needed.


Janet Alexandersson  09:24

So I think it's, once again, two lanes. One is the internal so corporations and even universities, what can enhance the performance and knowledge of their staff? So that's one lane, right, and for the right corporation that could even be knitting, you know what I mean? Like that could be fair, mindfulness exercise and like, whatever you want to call it, but that's internal, and then the other one is external. So what is it that they want their let's call them audience or customers, to learn that they can sell on. So the internal is just an upgrade for them, but the external. Only something that they resell. So you can definitely sell knitting, because there's a large corporation maybe that sells yarn that would love your knitting expertise to be sold to their knitters, because then they're going to buy more yarn. Yeah. So there's really no limit on industry, which is an odd thing to say, but you just have to find the right market. And the right market is really a market where they don't want to spend the dollars, and they take the moonshot of them being able to develop it and take the time, and it's just cheaper for them to just buy your thing.


Lexie Smith  10:32

So how? I mean, this is such a big question, and I'm not asking you to give away all your deep, deep, you know, proprietary secrets here, but it sounds like such a no brainer in theory. But then I'm, I'm thinking, let's say you, I can't hire you. You're booked up for some reason. And I'm like, Okay, I'm going to try to do this by myself. Like I feel like I need to know the right person to talk to, or the I don't even know where to start to kind of bridge that conversation. So where, where can someone start? Is there a certain department? Is there a type of title to look for? Any advice there?


Janet Alexandersson  11:05

So it depends on your product. But in universities, the the purchasers for for courses, but if you don't even know, you can just email, I'm just going to give you a low key thing for the university. Find the the what do you even call them, the institution or the department that houses the knowledge where you want to add? Find the dean, find a secretary, email them and say, hey, who should I talk to about this? Because the university is the business, and they sell knowledge. So if you have knowledge to add to their selling pool, they will, you will be directed to someone. So that's a low key way of if you don't know kind of how to navigate who's the right person, that's that's an easy entry. And even like info email at university. Who do I talk to about this? No one's gonna ban you from emailing them just by saying, I love it when just ask, yeah, and it's the same for corporations, they might be more difficult to reach because they have more safeguards. Universities tend to be quite communicative, whereas I find that corporations can be more siloed. But once again, ask,


Lexie Smith  12:15

ask, okay, part two question, yeah, is my brain. Hold on, Kaylee, edit out this. This pause for a second. My brain just completely lost the second question. Sorry, give me a second. Janet, there's so many questions. I want to make sure this is pointed. Who do we go to? Okay, here we go. I got it. So, okay, you find the person they're like, contact pat@university.org Great. Do you come to them with the price? Do you enter a negotiation cycle? Talk me through kind of some expectations someone should prepare for in this process.


Janet Alexandersson  13:04

So it depends. If you want to have a course specifically for university, it's great to have an outline of your suggested curriculum. You don't have to have all the content ready, but at least an outline, and then have an idea for a ballpark, they're always going to want to buy cheap, right? So if you don't have at least some sort of standard, and this can feel odd in the beginning, but once you start making your one pager of everything you'll include in your offer support, they will get annual upgrades. Maybe you'll have some teaching hours. Maybe you will have, like, actual hours at the university, or just like video recordings, or whatever it is, make sort of a three tiered package, like the bare basics, with you included. And maybe they want an entirely white labeled one where you're not mentioned. All of this is kind of what we call the release. So how much of your IP will they get access to? How much of your personal time would they get access to? So having that clear in your head what you would be comfortable with, because, once again, you're in charge. So writing that down, and then starting, starting to see that, oh, this is quite a lot for them to have and to have access to, and then starting to put some numbers so I wouldn't go in not thinking numbers. I would just go in very willing to adjust. Because sometimes, as I said, like we put so much into a course, and a university usually prefers to buy, like a six to eight week course instead of, like a two semester course. Yeah, because, yeah, once again, pay off for students. Yeah.


Lexie Smith  14:42

Okay. And I was looking deep on your Instagram today, and you have a lot of good posts on the topic of negotiation, negotiation, which obviously is very in alignment with the fact that you're a lawyer. So do you have and I think negotiation can come across. I mean, there's. Many areas of life, and you know, if you guys are listening, you're like, I don't want to sell to a university. I think negotiation tactics are applicable to finding a partnership, to potentially even locking down client con, you know, not contracts, but pricing, I don't know. So any tips for coaches on how to put the best foot forward, or how to navigate a negoti negotiation successfully.


Janet Alexandersson  15:28

I think you first have to convince yourself, okay, fair like, that's the first person you have to negotiate with and like, find the value. But then the easiest thing you can do, because it's a bit of a give and take. Is to build in leverage points or concession points. So building things into the contract that you know they will push against and be able to say, yes, okay, agree. You can have it that way. So asking for a little bit more, or asking for something that is a little bit unreasonable, which would be great if they approve it, but you're sort of prepared for them to push and you can seem like a back and forth willing partner, but you've sort of given them like a gauntlet to run that where you know the traps and you know what, what's behind the corner. So I think that's one. And then the final one is to be clear on that you never, you're never going to be done with your offer. It's always evolving. The pricing is always evolving. So if you, let's say, got away with a great deal, how can you make that better for next time, like taking the time to evaluate what happened? Did I get flustered? Why did I get flustered? If you I think this is the best advice. If you find yourself on a call and you're gonna say this is $5,000 and you hear yourself say this is $2,000 it's happened to a lot of us that we say different number than the number that we intended, the best thing you can do is just to pause and say, sorry, I looked at the wrong numbers. This was for something else. And then say your thing, you can always save yourself by saying, Hey, I looked at the wrong document, or, Hey, I sent you the wrong thing, this is the correct thing. So you can save yourself from yourself by just slowing down a little bit and realizing that they're not in your head. They're not hearing this conversation that you're having the sidebar that is tripping you up and just Yeah, slow down.


Lexie Smith  17:29

Like be human. Humans have errors. Address it. Don't Don't freak out. Don't panic. I think that's amazing advice. Back to corporate and universities for a second here, because I do hear this being an avenue so many coaches want to tap, and because, in theory, it offers greater revenue. Let's be quite blank and you know, always just going after small business owners or small like individuals. So something that is up for question a lot in the coaching industry is credibility. We obviously have coaching certifications. People have degrees. But I'm curious, in your experience, if there's a baseline set that corporations or universities, and we can, we can answer this separately, because I imagine universities versus corporate being different, that you see being helpful, like they only take curriculum if it's someone who is certified, or they need to have a master's. Or do you see any benchmarks of credibility that either help the sale or become detrimental to the sale not going through.


Janet Alexandersson  18:43

I think the first benchmark that is across the board, for corporations and universities is if you have a proven something, that you can say, this got someone X results, and it's repeatable and reliable, and it keeps getting these results, and it's something you already sold. It doesn't have to be at a large scale, but you can say these are getting results, then at least corporations will then not be as interested in the rest of your credentials. Universities can still go with this is something that it's been proven these people are getting the results that they should be getting, and as long as you don't claim to be something you're not. They can present that cleanly. Some of them will be attracted to the titles. I'm not going to lie. So that depends on on if you are the one teaching it or not. So if they just buy your curriculum and you're not really attached to the delivery of it. They're not really going to care about your your credentials, either in the same because they're just caring about buying this piece of IP and licensing it, not buying it, licensing it and presenting it. So they care about the quality of what you have created, more than when, than your credentials. Okay.


Lexie Smith  19:59

Okay. Okay, good to hear, and it's in line with what Emily and I have talked with on this show with you have to understand what makes you credible? Is it a lived experience? Is it a degree, whatever? There's many, many things that can be seen as credible and in line with your advice on negotiate. Negotiation, I think like step one is believing it yourself, pumping yourself up right like being confident and understanding you know your shit and how you acquired that can look different. You could be a master knitter. I don't know if they have a degree for knitting, but you could have knit 500 scarves. That's pretty damn credible to me. If I were speaking of knitting, I used to be, not to be too much of a squirrel, but I love the show because it lets me squirrel. Have you knitted, because I used to when I was like 10,


Janet Alexandersson  20:47

I'm knitted. Also crochet is my game. But, like, I know


Lexie Smith  20:50

it's your game. Well, this actually kind of segment segues me a little bit, because we touched on briefly that you do enjoy a fair amount of creative endeavors. I want to take an opportunity to talk about that side of you. I know you launched something semi recently. I also made was a made aware before we hit record, you rebranded. So all of that falls under creativity bucket. Where do you want to start? What do you want to talk about?


Janet Alexandersson  21:16

First, I don't know. Let's I don't know.


Lexie Smith  21:19

Let's go rebrand, because then I have to know, because you you tease that to me. So you rebranded recently. First off, what did you rebrand? Two,


Janet Alexandersson  21:29

oh, I rebranded.


Lexie Smith  21:30

I know that was not a fair question.


Janet Alexandersson  21:32

I rebranded my law firm, which was named after me in the most boring way humanly


Lexie Smith  21:35

possible. Okay, so what is it now? And why did you change it? It is now


Janet Alexandersson  21:39

piggy bank legal. And I wanted something that makes people smile. There's a bit of nostalgia to it, but also adds it kind of adds to the story of what we do. We help people add revenue streams, build their piggy banks. And it also allows me an endless stream of puns, which is not to be underestimated.


Lexie Smith  21:57

So freaking here for, so here for and I smiled when you told me, I'm like, Oh my gosh, okay, we have to get into it. So, mission accomplished there. Now, are you changing any of your offerings, or is it just kind of the brand and the messaging? Yeah,


Janet Alexandersson  22:13

it's just the brand. Everything is staying the same, as it says on the former website. Everything is exactly the same, just with a bit more. Oink, shut up.


Lexie Smith  22:25

What prompted you to want to rebrand? I because, let me back pedal a second here. I think there's a really smart time to rebrand. There's, there's a variety of reasons people rebrand. I don't like people rebranding. I'm not saying you do this. Um, just as one more excuse to delay getting out there and sell to market as a coach, I know that's not the case for you. You've been in the game for a long time. So what prompted your rebrand?


Janet Alexandersson  22:50

I think it was personal growth, to be honest, like in and a lot of the things that you mentioned about my creativity, I had not allowed any of that to bleed into my legal practice or and then I realized, like the licensing that I do with clients, that's all creativity for them, and like, the business strategy is also creativity. So I needed the brand to sort of catch up with who I am as a person now, and kind of where I see it going in the future, and also wanting to be more memorable, because I want people to understand that this is an opportunity for them and possibility for them. Yeah,


Lexie Smith  23:25

I mean, you, you have a very interested person on this podcast, so follow up with me, because this has been kind of a a bug in the back of my head for some what, some time. And I had an intern once that I worked with at the beginning of my coaching journey, who is now a professor, and she said that she took what she learned in our internship through my course, and, like, completely redesigned her curriculum, which was felt like a pretty good indication that I'm on to something.


Janet Alexandersson  23:55

But I think it's people don't know about this, because in the past, not everyone had made IP this way. Now we've all made courses. We all made something in the past couple of years online. The modern entrepreneur is making IP, whereas in the past, we were just like, Here, here's your whatever you ordered, and this is the thing. But we didn't make them go through a process or make it anything proprietary. So there aren't a lot of resources and a lot of knowledge around this, and I just want people to know so that's why I want the brand to be more out there. Okay, so


Lexie Smith  24:28

the brand is getting out there on this show. How can people work with you specifically? Is it like through a coaching container? Is it through like talk to us how exactly that works when they're working with you. And piggy bank,


Janet Alexandersson  24:44

yeah. So if you come at the stage where, sort of you are at, where you already have something that you've made it then becomes a sort of a retainer for first part business advisory, where we go over your offer and turn it into, like. Sensed product, figure out your market, your scope, what do you want to offer? It's essentially creating a little writer for your new rock star so that we can send it off into the world. And then we have a second session figuring out what would the offer look like actually when you present it. So you will have, like, a one pager or a three pager that we are working on, and you have a PDF ready to go your pricing already. And then after that, I would draft your licensing agreement to support what you are now offering. Once you're out in the wild and you start getting offers, I help you customize the documents and then also support you in this specific container for the first three negotiations. So like all hands on deck when you need it, and then help you set up the onboarding. So once you have licensees on board, what do you do with them? You probably need a kickoff call. You need a bunch of things throughout the first year, so I have all the SOPs and templates for that. So we set you up for a successful first year so you can both deliver but also evaluate your licensees and see if you want to renew. So that's kind of the first package. But then, if you're even earlier, I have like, a little create your IP club going as well, so you can join that and and sort of get prepped for creating the IP that you want to


Lexie Smith  26:11

offer. So freaking fun. Um, where do people go is, do we go to a website? Do we go to your Instagram? Where can they go


Janet Alexandersson  26:19

to the best thing is, go to piggy bank, dot legal, and you can see all the information there. You can book a call. Feel free to book a call, even if you're just curious. Allowed to talk to people. And then if you are sort of uncertain, if like, Do I even have something if you go to piggy bank, dot legal, slash assessment, there's a free assessment, not even an email required that you can take in sort of the things that you need to have in place, and there's an audio explanation under each of them so you can get more insights. Because I know we all talk ourselves out of this and saying, like, my stuff is not good enough, your stuff is good enough. And I'll explain how,


Lexie Smith  26:55

my God, you have your shit together. Girl, this is amazing. I mean, we've interacted for a while, but I've never gone this deep with you on what it is you do, and I'm so freaking excited for members of our community and far beyond to learn about this. I think it's such such a cool opportunity, and you have such a clear structure. We'll put her website and the notes guys too. But Janet is also in our Ready Set coach directory, if you're in the community or it's also on the Ready Set coach community com website. So for some reason, you can't remember or find this episode. Go there and you can find Janet's information, which we'll make sure to update it to the new website. And this has just been, just been so much fun. I always love to, Well Emily and I always love to wrap up with giving everyone listening a piece of homework. Honestly, you can take this wherever, wherever you want to, but for everyone listening, it can be related to negotiation. It can be related to IP. I don't know what is one piece of homework you want to give everyone listening today,


Janet Alexandersson  28:02

I think it's time for some inventory. No, I would like you to make a list of every single thing that you have made for your business. Is it a course? Is it a test? Is it a quiz? Is it a checklist? Is it a template? Every single thing write that down, because I think you made more than you think of not only the things that you are currently offering, things that you are not offering, things you thought weren't good enough. What are they and who could they be helpful to?


Lexie Smith  28:30

Okay, Emily and I need to book a sales call with you. Holy f we've made so much stuff. Yeah, seriously, though I'm so pumped up. I hope you guys are listening to our pumped up as well with you know all the opportunity at at hand here, I just want to thank you a for bringing this to market so coaches like us, who who have a love for learning, have an opportunity to get paid for it beyond maybe how we're initially thinking about it, and for being an RSC insider and a member of the community, it's been so fun to chat with you, and I hope you get to bed at a decent hour. We didn't even get to go into Sweden, which I feel like would be a whole other episode. I have so many so many thoughts and questions, but just want to thank you again for for your knowledge and your time today.


Janet Alexandersson  29:19

Well, thank you so much for having me. This was a lovely conversation, and you're going to join me


Lexie Smith  29:24

with the jingle. So just we basically are going to say thanks for joining us on The Ready Set coach podcast. But we're going to sing it however it comes out of both of our mouths, and then it's going to be a beautiful, beautiful, whatever it's going to be. So


Janet Alexandersson  29:37

you're going to have to tell me the sentence again,


Lexie Smith  29:40

just seeing Ready Set coach podcast, when I start singing and whatever comes, watch you be an opera singer. Okay, thanks for joining us on The Ready Set coach podcast,


29:52

yay. Okay,


Lexie Smith  29:55

I need to stop recording, not in the meeting. Hold on.