Listen in as we are joined by Clark Briner, Founder & Principal of Revere Capital. With a unique background in institutional banking, real estate, private equity, and credit, Clark shares his philosophy of winning and eliminating binary risks. He looks for a high margin of safety and high current yields to provide investors with a fixed-income alternative absolute return strategy.
You won’t want to miss this discussion of his experience in institutional banking and the credit space.
RECORDED FEB 3, 2023
Listen in as we are joined by Clark Briner, Founder & Principal of Revere Capital. With a unique background in institutional banking, real estate, private equity, and credit, Clark shares his philosophy of winning and eliminating binary risks. He looks for a high margin of safety and high current yields to provide investors with a fixed-income alternative absolute return strategy.
You won’t want to miss this discussion of his experience in institutional banking and the credit space.
RECORDED FEB 3, 2023
Well hello everyone and welcome to this week's edition of the fat pitch podcast. I'm your co host Paul Borowsky chief distribution Officer of Sealy investment securities. And I'm joined by the other host, Clint Sorenson, founder of wealth shield. CIO, have you name it? Clint Scott too many businesses to count. And luckily, Clint, they all seem to be thriving in this uncertain market. This week, we're joined by Clark Breiner. Clark, say hello to our listeners.
Clark Briner:How y'all doing?
Paul Barausky:It's a thrill to have another Dallas guy here with us. For those of you who are new to the fat pitch podcast. It's really a combination of things we thought about from Ted Williams to Warren Buffett. Clint, why don't you explain what we mean?
Clint Sorenson:Yeah. So Ted Williams said you want to wait on the fat pitch, right? That was kind of the secret to success. And if you ask Warren Buffett, he says it's very similar in investing. The good thing about investing those you don't just get three strikes, you can't strike out. So as he would say, is wait on the fat pitch, and then, and then take your swing. And so that's what this podcast is all about. It's about interviewing subject matter experts to tell us where they think the fat pitches are now and into the future. And obviously, there's no crystal ball. So we just want to bring you as much information as much thought leadership is Clark,
Paul Barausky:I like to say we have weekly conversations with legends, luminaries, leaders, and sometimes lunatics from all across the investment spectrum, everything from cannabis to cold storage, but today, Clark, you're a credit guy. So once you tell everyone how you got started in investing, and what led you to the world of you know, credit, and some folks may not even know what I mean by credit.
Clark Briner:Great question. I would say I love the analogy of fat pitch, because that's what we're supposed to do in the credit space, you know, not strike out and hit 99% of the time. What got me into it, you know, my background, unique background, both industrial banking background as well as worked at a real estate private equity firm, and really is just a philosophical thing for me. I am one that likes to do not lose. And I'd rather take a single and double consistently and keep swinging for the fences and strike out.
Paul Barausky:He's Ichiro clan.
Clint Sorenson:Yeah, he's not he's not Babe Ruth. Right? He's
Clark Briner:right. Okay, and not the homerun King, either.
Paul Barausky:So what got you started? I mean, everybody's got an origin story. What got you started in the investment world?
Clark Briner:Absolutely. I started buying real estate actually. So spent the first several years of my career both in a private equity firm buying real estate, as well as doing on my own personal book. And as I started seeing markets, I guess, it's just philosophical. I'm one that likes to protect significant downside protection. And I'll take that low double digit yield, and a senior secured first position over a potential 20% of return that you get 50% of the time, year over year, you know, less than 10 years, I think that they just proven out that that we've been right. But in certain markets, the equity guys definitely do. Well.
Paul Barausky:So you came out of a real estate private equity shop? How did that work? Where do you go from there? You know, what's the chronological timeline for Clark? Breiner?
Clark Briner:Yeah, so I went to business school came out, went into the private equity world. And then I did a little bit backwards. Most people go from the sell side of the buy side, I went from the buy side of the sell side, went from the private equity firm to investment banking. So did that bulge bracket Wall Street, I think great experience, but a lot of great sharp people. Two things I learned there is a probably don't want to be in a 70,000 person organization again.
Paul Barausky:We understand that.
Clark Briner:Number two, my wiring and what I see the world as I'm probably better on the buy side, and running in grace rural debt shop than working at an investment bank, but no regrets, great experience great people. And you are sitting at the center of the financial universe when you're doing investment banking, but you're the
Clint Sorenson:habit to access and just people connections and the network. It's just amazing when you really think about it, especially during that time that you were there because you were there. Yes. You were there during the bike right before the financial crisis, correct,
Clark Briner:pre GFC. And right into it. And then you look back also that the people that were at Deutsche Bank, which was the time was the number two real estate investment banking, in the rankings, the people that came out of there, the shops that started the things they've done is pretty stunning. So the network, the experience, the sophistication, and really just being in the crossfire, as GFC was coming into play, as you know, read The Big Short, Deutsche Bank was right in the crosshairs there.
Paul Barausky:It seems like Michael Lewis This is gets a reference on every podcast. And I said earlier, he's off somewhere writing the crypto story right? He's got SPF as the centerpiece. What was
Clint Sorenson:your number one lesson Clark from the GFC. Being at that, because I feel like that probably just hearing your, your background in what you said earlier about wanting to really minimize the downside, right? You want to maximize your protection of that risk, and you're comfortable hitting the doubles, right? You just want to be you want to make sure that your win ratio is higher than your loss ratio, and you're winning at a nice clip. So what was your number one lesson? Was that kind of philosophy formed during that period? Or was that the issue or any of the forming of that philosophy was,
Clark Briner:it was cemented? I would say from 99 to oh seven was the formative years of my kind of philosophical belief of investing. The number one thing that you look at is eliminating binary risks. And so you need to eliminate binary risks. And how you do that one of the main things we really focus on here, revere is going to be alignment of interests, and that's everything from your GP, LP to your employees to, especially on the borrower side and how you structure debentures debt or loves this thing, yeah.
Clint Sorenson:So walk us through what do you think the fat pitches today clarify to say, hey, where where do you see the greatest opportunity, given today's backdrop? Right, the macro environment, the micro environment, just what's happening?
Paul Barausky:Yeah. What's your Outlook around that too? Yeah,
Clark Briner:you're right now we're a little bit of the calm before the storm, we have a math problem on the real estate side is what I keep saying. That's a well said. When you when you have 400 basis point increase in the underlying rates, which you're borrowing, we'll just use multifamily. If you look at the math, multifamily cap rates expand, meaning you lose value and underlying real estate by 50 basis points for about every 100 basis points increasing rate.
Clint Sorenson:So that's a 50 duration for that asset classes, which are saying that as we see something which is about right, because if you look at equity, I think the s&p carries like a 47 duration. So it's about right long term asset has that type of duration to it. That is fascinating.
Clark Briner:And so what that means when right now we're in this stall period, and I hate to say look back at the great financial crisis, look at Oh, seven look and oh eight, it didn't hit until a little bit later what you came into the stall like you're flying an airplane, you haven't hit the ground yet, but you're not getting lift.
Clint Sorenson:And it really happened in housing. And oh, six, you started to see first cracks in of six. It just wasn't loud enough. Right. But that's interesting. You say that?
Clark Briner:Yeah, there's just not many transactions happening right now. So where we're seeing opportunity, which is we're more salivating what's going to happen and 369 months from now than what is actually happening right now. I think the debt acquisition business meeting buying stuff off bank lenders and others that don't have the workout capacity or interest is going to be a phenomenal business in the latter half of 2324. And even in the 25.
Paul Barausky:You know, I heard I heard that opinion posited by another real veteran on the equity side of real estate talking about the paint, you're really going to see the pain from distressed sellers come q3 in the right one if next year.
Clark Briner:Yeah, everybody. I mean, human nature, not just the real estate, individuals, human nature is you believe that you're strong enough to hold on. The reality is 80% of the people aren't. And the cold harsh reality is if you sold now, you're gonna lose 10 cents on the dollar. You sell q4, you're gonna lose 25 cents on the dollar. If you look at that math equation, as those fissures are those cracks start to be seen.
Paul Barausky:interesting side note, it's not really on topic for you. But we've I've been having some general discussions with folks not in the investment universe. Just sitting out. You know, you and I are in Dallas Clark, Clint, probably home in Raleigh today, although we could play Where's Waldo. You sit in your office, you know, halfway up Central and you look downtown and you wonder how many of those floors are empty? At the end of the day? The banks are the ultimate owners of those buildings. You know, when we look at it, a lot of them how much does that pain in office when these leases start? not renewing? or less square footage gets renewed as the trends with work from home and hybrid that we all know, how much does that spill over into other sectors? And how do you differentiate the opportunity between the car rack?
Clark Briner:Yeah, office is going to be an interesting space. And I think, you know, our analysis and my thought on this is you're going to significantly increase the chasm between the haves and have nots. You look at the cost to put an employee all of us have employees. At the end of the day, you have to look what does it cost to have an office space for you know, Joe or Sally? Well, Joe or Sally's making 70,000 60,000 Now was a year, and you're paying $15,000 a year for that office. Mathematically, you're going to work from home a few days, a few days a week, because the cost of as rents go up and inflation and stuff of that nature. So I think you're gonna have a massive problem and see and be office. But I think you're a where you have very high margin businesses, they're going to continue to occupy that Class A and double A office space. But I would not want to be an owner of BMC. Office. Also, I think CBD is going to have a problem because people have gotten used to and look, you know, I commute five to seven minutes to work. It's not even that bad. But the guys and gals that I employ that 30 minutes to an hour, I don't blame them when they say I don't want to drive that hour. I'm gonna take Friday and work from home. For that, for
Paul Barausky:those of you not familiar Central Business District CBD, we're not talking about a byproduct of farms.
Clint Sorenson:Claire, that's not the fat pitch today.
Paul Barausky:Yeah, that's not our fat pitch. Today, I agree with you. I think we all know, I mean, we got a kid here who, you know, decided to buy a house on a lake an hour away and dragging him back in, although he's a wonderful kid wasn't the easiest thing in the world. So I think you're right, so my question, the second part of that is, is that spill over right? For the banks, and there's so much pain that there's opportunities for in the private side of lending, because that spills over pain from office into all these sectors and their appetite declines thereby setting guys like you up like post, you know, global financial crisis, is it the same kind of backdrop
Clark Briner:is the exact same backdrop and you look, I'll just give you some metrics and underlying portfolio just over the last second half of 22, you know, average yield, and our portfolio went up 300 basis points. And the average exposure, meaning risk or loan to value went down 12%. And so from a risk adjusted return, in six months alone, we are seeing dramatic change. And how's that gonna affect the debt business? It's gonna help the private lending business because banks, right or wrong, are constrained by the Fed to really look at cash flows. Well, if you have deterioration of the underlying cash flows or rents that aren't being paid, or leases that aren't being renewed, your debt service coverage, your debt yield declines, banks are not going to refinance. And in general, banks do not have the staff and expertise to work out more complicated situations. So what do they do that the borrower either goes and recapitalize as the loan or the private lender, or the bank sells it for 6070 85 cents on the dollar, whatever it may be, and the private debt world or my world ends up buying that debt. So it gives us a great opportunity to get in the same risk profile two different ways. You know, as mentioned in some earlier today, just to give you an anecdote of where the markets going, we bought our last portfolio of debt in 2014. That's kind of when the good days ran out from the great financial crisis. We made our first portfolio acquisition of debt in July of 22. So there's been, you know, eight years, and it's not that we weren't looking. It's just we had certain credit metrics and certain return metrics we wanted to hit. And the market was not allowing us to hit those. So we sent most of the business over the origination side.
Paul Barausky:Well, you take that fat pitch analogy, there's nothing wrong with watching balls go by. Nothing wrong with taking a bath Freebase.
Clint Sorenson:Are you seeing? That's right, exactly. Tell me a little bit about what you're seeing. So that's, that's interesting. You're seeing it pop up in the portfolio side, which is nice, right? Because now you're starting to see some of that pain trickle into the banking sector. And so the that just the the percentage of opportunities is going to hopefully continue to grow. But what about what are you seeing on the private sign? I'm hearing a default so I'm here I mean, because I saw a lot of multifamily developments pricing and exit cap in two years that are, you know, this year at four and a half, and that's under a six month treasury. So I'm thinking alright, there's no negative risk premium here. A lot of these things just have not repriced and all those models, they all lose money, those investors lose money at like five and a half cap rates. So you start to think a terminal Fed funds rate at five you've got to start to see distress in multifamily, especially those developments that we had and construction spending and multifamily is at an all time high or at least in the recent 30 year period.
Paul Barausky:Drop flying to Dallas Clint Yeah, that's supply Malta multifamily, but it's all being absorbed so far class so fast.
Clint Sorenson:I saw my queue. I'm curious. Are you seeing any defaults? I'm hearing rumors. So my friends, but are you seeing any defaults in that space? Anything interesting? Any distress is the first question there.
Clark Briner:Yes, we've gotten into a few transactions that Clint you nail on the head because of the dynamics of both lenders who made construction to perm loans, meaning we'll we'll help you build it and then we'll help you lease it up. They're like, hey, buy us out. 90 cents 95 cents on the dollar, the construction is done. But we can hold on for another 1218 months for lease up. And for us, that is a great trade. We don't like construction, we don't think you get paid well enough for that additional risk. But there's going to be an Paul, you mentioned that the exit cap rate assumptions, when they started that construction two years ago, we're probably in the band of reality, when you had five basis points in your treasury. The world is a whole new place. And when I joke and say we have a math problem, there is it's impossible to sell something at a forecast when prime rate is seven and a half.
Paul Barausky:Yeah, I'm hearing a lot on the equity side, Clark about the same thing. And Clint, which is you'll have a good developer, right? People that run good businesses that they may be out there, 6789 projects, whatever it is, and they got something that they finished two years ago, and now they gotta sell it at a much lower price. And or they gotta, you know, somebody's got to go and take that loan at a much different set of economics. So it's definitely a new reality. I think it's interesting to COVID kind of changed. I don't know what the word is this whole COVID experience 20 and 21. In the 22. I keep saying to investors, you guys, just forget about that period, and go back and remember, you know, 2018, and 19, were pretty good years for investors, things that you got in an abnormal period. That's not reality.
Clint Sorenson:It it changed everything. To your point, Paul, and I know Clark, you saw this probably to just, I mean, everything reprice so quickly to that just wall a stimulus. I mean, our collective friend Mark, he likes to say Mark yusko likes to say that we printed 50% Of all the dollars every creation in like two months. So I don't know what the exact figure was, but it was a lot and that you saw that in every asset class. I'm sure you saw. Because I think that's just a great point. I don't think we forget about it. I think we remember that as an anomaly and firmly ingrained that that's normal. That's not normal. What did you see during that period? Just some examples of the abnormality and especially on the pricing, and like 21 was just nuts and some of these things.
Clark Briner:Yeah. When we get back to that question, something else another opportunity we're starting to see more of is in the multi space, there was a lot of new players in the mezzanine and prep equity space. And we're seeing a lot of those guys picking up the phone, calling us looking to help recapitalize restructure those underlying deals. They are not quite priced, where they beat our Dynamics. But as I said, Until balance sheets run out people don't actually come to the real trade price that's coming over the next six months. So you're gonna see some problems with that. multispace.
Paul Barausky:That's interesting. And they chased it because of a no yield out there. Right. So novices got in,
Clark Briner:you know, guys like me, what, we can't compete it. So for 200 We don't get out of bed for sale for 200, as they say. And, you know, banks, Fannie, Freddie, HUD, were very hot to trot on the multifamily space. So we had to pivot into you know, retail office, land, industrial, not even industrial, but retail office and land during those frothy, you know, printing 50% of the money supply, as you said, and now our book is back up to approximately 40% multifamily, because everybody's retrenched. So we're getting lower loan to value. You know, we're averaging So for 650, on the multifamily book, which is 400 basis points above norm just six months ago,
Paul Barausky:for better than me, I still say LIBOR and catch myself, I haven't made the switch to say, hey, look like you're literally
Clint Sorenson:solving equations. Man, this is the cool thing. He said, it's got a math problem. And you go in there and say, now they got the math wrong. And I'm just gonna wait until they figure that out, then I'll come in there and bounce the equation out, because you're just bailing out this kind of capital infrastructure that chased hot assets, which I think is fantastic. And you're now moving there, because the opportunities present themselves. So that's, that's really interesting, Paul, what do you think, man?
Paul Barausky:So my question is, you've been doing this a long time. You know, we don't promote track records here. regulators don't like that You've obviously done exceptionally well previously in your own shop Revere. For folks who don't do well, or haven't done well, you know, what do you think the mistakes some people could make now? Or did you and your shop tried to avoid in the credit space,
Clark Briner:let's say the equity space, I think everybody's learning their lesson about match term debt to match term obligations. You know, for 20 years, we've had decreasing interest rates. And so the idea of caps and swaps and matching your debt for the time you're gonna hold it was not really discussed. And now it's top of mind but you've also seen those caps and swaps bump up to in one year cost of a multiply 28. Next. And so now it's a little bit more expensive to get into that game. On the debt side, you know, I think the the big problem we're gonna see for, we don't have this exposure, but most of my peer set does is the repo problem. And so when it started getting stressed, at most, every real estate debt manager has a levered portfolio, almost no one has no leverage on the portfolio. If you have a repo line, you have signed over the ability to your repo provider, which is a large bank, their ability without check, they're the judge, jury and executioner to reprice the underlying collateral just on their belief of impairment. And so what they start doing is saying, Hey, we don't like this underlying loan, we're putting it back to you come up with cash. That's called the death spiral of death. And so death spiral out of
Clint Sorenson:debt that literally is liquidity preference driven to it's not fundamental term, and they're not doing underwriting on every single thing. They're just saying, Hey, I've got liquidity preference, time to pony up.
Clark Briner:That is correct. When you see that spiral starting, it's usually that match term debt problem for the ability for your lender to repo are forced upon you a buyback of the of your collateral, just on a whim.
Clint Sorenson:So and that happened, that's happened in every cycle. If you think about it, I'm thinking about savings and loan. You think about a lot of those radio stations and media companies are getting their loans called as well as in the real estate market, the GFC. I mean, this is not an irregular occurrence. So that type of event does create a pretty significant opportunity for you. I bet
Clark Briner:it does. And anything that's in the recapitalisation space, you know, you don't want to especially publicly, when other people are seeing challenges, it does breed opportunity for those who may have been a little bit more responsible and more responsibly capitalized through the frothy types, we paid a price to be honest with you doing match term debt on our underlying collateral, non callable mass term debt, and they have cost us 2550 Extra basis points off of our return. But we have no risk in situations what I believe is coming up in 23.
Paul Barausky:Yeah, you know, when everything is flying, people don't want to hear about risk adjusted returns, right? It's when the people start to notice Hey, that guy's got a pretty good on base percentage. We had a previous guests talk about three risks. He said he learned leverage liquidity and concentration. So I think about you know, some of the lessons that you've learned about liquidity. And well and
Clint Sorenson:leverage, he just gave me the leverage and liquidity because he said that guests said you can't have those two at the same time. Yeah,
Paul Barausky:I think you think a lot this.
Clark Briner:Yeah, in concentration is just good portfolio management. We've all learned that lesson as well, when you're blindsided by something, whatever it may be governmental risk, fraud, risk, all those types of things. You don't know what's coming. And when you're hit by it, you want it to be contained to 5% or less of your portfolio.
Paul Barausky:Did any of you see the article a couple of weeks ago? I get tired of the individual thinks they're smart and every lecture and asks you about a black swan event if I hear the term Black Swan once more. So there was an article talking about snow leopards talking about how snow leopards attack. They're out there their camouflage to their environment that that's really what's happening, not a black swan is if you're experienced if you know what to look for. And if you've set the right guidelines, I thought that was a better metaphor than a black swan, a snow leopard. It was an interesting article. Clark, what else can you tell us? Clint started out kind of asking about backdrop your thesis right now? What's your outlook over? You know, coming out of where we are now? Like, what's your outlook for the next five years?
Clark Briner:Want to bifurcate that question, the next two years will go out to five, I think we're going to continue to see a slow decline. And I've talked about we're in this paralysis, the bid ask spread is too wide and transactions to start to go away. As balance sheet start to run out, meaning the ability to hold pay debt service or need that sort of coverage and debt yield requirements, you're going to see that death spiral start, that usually is a two to three year. Like, I always joke that my business is the absolute best business risk adjusted three out of every 10 year cycle. You had the opportunity to buy and help recapitalize and solve problems. And you usually get paid phenomenally well for the per unit of risk, which is really what we look for as debt guys. And then there's also like all green shoot opportunities of your five year outlook those last two years. You need to be on top of what's happening in the market, looking at all the forward looking metrics, and you need to start Converting from Hey, we're no longer workout guys. We're green shoot people. So how do we start getting the guys may have been knocked down a little bit the gals that didn't have the best outing through this, how do we get them back on the feet? How do we get them out there making money again? And you know, as you're coming out of that the lenders haven't fully engaged again, you know, generally the public market lenders are followers, not leaders, you know, they stopped lending when GFC is already two years in. And that five year period is going to be tremendous for a lot of the debt firms out there that are pretty good.
Paul Barausky:It's a good outlook. Clint, you got a follow up.
Clint Sorenson:But yeah, I was gonna say in terms of other liquidity providers that exist in the space, you know, one of the things that's hurt me in the past is seeing that delayed mechanism, right, because you have other liquidity providers. Now, that kind of step in private equity funds will never step in, and try to solve the problem too early. And so I think we're seeing some of that now. Or we saw some of that in kind of last year, like early people with cash burning a hole in their pocket, a lot of client pressure to deploy capital, right return chasing type mentality, pushing people off the spectrum of risk, you started to see some of those holes get plugged early on. And now I feel like you're to your point, I feel like you could definitely see the music stop here.
Clark Briner:You're right about too early. You know, none of us want the Palm Pilot, we all want the iPhone. So
Paul Barausky:Palm Pilot,
Clark Briner:I'm thinking myself on that.
Paul Barausky:shares a rim also, technology, it's got your Blackberry, the Blackberry, that's great. Hey, international. And you have experience there and the international credit markets, what do you think of things over in Europe right now.
Clark Briner:So we focus domestically, or really North America, we do a little bit in Canada a little bit the Caribbean, the only thing we do internationally is going to be on the consumer and credit side, consumer and commercial side, not on the real estate side.
Paul Barausky:You know, we talk a lot about real estate debt, I hang my hat in the real estate equity world. And the other interesting things that are interesting to you right now and specialty credit markets, things like that, that you find unique and interesting out there that have you up with the pen and paper thinking how can I make money?
Clark Briner:So the consumer, you know, I'll joke about the American Center, which I know you ask about Europe, but we mainly focus on the US consumer. One thing you can always count on Americans is in normalized economies. They aren't $1. And they spend $1, too. And we're back to that situation. It's not good holistically for society in the economy, but it's just the way Americans have been wired. Hey, we learned from our government. That's true. Well.
Paul Barausky:Let's, let's try what it seemed like, yeah.
Clark Briner:Yeah, that near prime borrower is back to the historic default rates of 2019. So they've digested all that free money. And now they've spent it all all that savings cushion that they built, they've gone through that, and they're back to the good old fashioned dollar to for every dollar. And we watched that metric quite a bit on that consumer finance side, because you want to make sure you're helping consumers not hurting them, getting them into a worse financial situation. So we're pulling back on the consumer credit a bit. But, you know, the prime and near prime individuals are actually the ones that are defaulting at a faster rate than the below prime individuals.
Paul Barausky:Why is that?
Clark Briner:Well, the joke I heard from joke, but a statement I heard that resonated with me a couple of conferences ago, is the low prime subprime borrower lives in a state of recession every day. So they are used to handling that situation, the people like on this podcast today and our peer set, not used to not having cash flow. And so they just don't handle it as well as the ones that are perpetually in that state.
Paul Barausky:So that's, that's important. Yeah. Good point. Good point.
Clark Briner:So we're pulling back on the consumer side, we'll get a little more aggressive on the commercial side. On our non real estate business,
Paul Barausky:interesting. Yeah, I heard another person talking about that's why they like emerging markets, you guys because small countries and companies are used to bootstrapping it all the time. So they just figure it out. Whereas somebody with a little more large just says, What do you mean? Well, I'm just not going to pay that. So we have that. Clint, you got some final questions for Clark and Clark. We'd love for you to tell everybody a little bit about revere capital. Also when you started it a little bit more about time now you're here in Dallas right down the road from me. Great.
Clark Briner:Yeah, we're here in Dallas based right off central expressway. You know, founded firm back in 2006. We've been around through a few cycles. A few ups and downs in the world since then, what we do is we buy and originate asset backed debt. Keep it simple, we look for high margin of safety high current yields. And our typical investors are looking for a fixed income alternative absolute return strategy. And that's what we provide to them.
Paul Barausky:Very cool, Clint, you got another question for Clark before we let him go today, I really appreciate you making time for us to Clark. I know you've been all over Where's Waldo to start the year here.
Clint Sorenson:Yeah, Clark, I just want to say thank you, I appreciate you join us being a guest and love your ideas here love the fat pitch you presented. And I'm with you in the camp of I think we're just in the early stages of this and any particular credit event or like that sounds like it's gonna be you're ready you're sitting you're waiting to take advantage of it. So tell the audience how they can get in touch with you that you have a LinkedIn Twitter or anything like that. let the audience know how they can reach out to you.
Clark Briner:Absolutely. So our websites revere capital.com by email, see Brian over your capital.com Reach out anytime I'd love to talk to you about ideas what you see in the market, and obviously that was brave. We believe
Paul Barausky:we're gonna add it. So with that, I want to thank everyone for joining us on this week's edition of the fat pitch podcast. We appreciate your listenership. Maybe your viewership too. If you like looking at a couple of guys that did not make the male model convention. And if you enjoy it, also share it with your friends. Thanks so much.