The Leaders' Perspective
The Leaders' Perspective
Emily Chang - Chief Executive Officer
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The very best leaders are selfless – they care about helping others, both at work and in society. These leaders of consequence define their own social legacy – something that leaves the world a little bit better. In this episode we chat with McCann China CEO Emily Chang about her social legacy, her book The Spare Room, and how having a social legacy makes you a better leader inside and outside of the boardroom.
Leaders set vision and strategy and influence and shepherd others along the journey to achieve that vision. The very best leaders are selfless. They care about helping others both at work and in society. core to the essence of being a Triple Threat leader is being a leader of consequence. This is someone who recognizes that success in the boardroom, that success in the operating room. That success in the political arena is inextricably linked to deeply furthering and supporting a social cause. Welcome
Voiceover:to the leaders perspective podcast where we talk to Triple Threat leaders about the people products, trends and experiences that influence business. I'm now pleased to introduce your host, Jason Goldberg.
Jason Goldberg:Welcome back to the leaders perspective podcast where we engage with Triple Threat leaders to learn about their lives, careers and leadership philosophies, and chat with our guests about a hot topic in society. As a reminder, a Triple Threat leader is one who embodies the very best of leadership and who has strong IQ EQ and DQ intelligence quotient, emotional quotient and decency quotient. I am thrilled to welcome Emily Chang, executive speaker, author and influencer. Emily is the CEO of McCann worldgroup Chyna and previously served as Chief Marketing Officer for Starbucks China, and the Chief Commercial Officer for InterContinental Hotels group in China. Earlier in her career, she led retail marketing for Apple in Asia Pacific, and began her career with 11 years at Procter and Gamble. She is a prolific speaker having delivered three TED Talks and spoke at fortunes most powerful Women's Summit, Emily earned her BA and MBA from the University of Rochester. She is also the best selling author of the spare room and amazing and influential book, where she discusses her journey and supporting nearly 20 people who needed a helping hand. She not only talks about values based leadership, but she describes her journey in finding and defining her own social legacy. Emily, thank you for joining us today on the leaders perspective.
Emily Chang:Thank you so much for having me.
Jason Goldberg:So where in the world can we find you today?
Emily Chang:Today, I'm in Los Angeles, I came on a very whirlwind tour of the United States with my daughter, and then ended up having our flight canceled. So we're here for a little while longer than expected, but really trying to enjoy this wonderful place while we're here.
Jason Goldberg:Awesome, very nice. And how it's traveled in your to and from China over the last few months.
Emily Chang:It has not been so much. So I went out to China about two years ago and frankly, didn't even endeavor to leave the country because I knew it would be difficult to come back. In fact, this summer when we booked our trip, it was only because we had seen more people coming back and everything seemed like it was starting to hit a rhythm. But there's always the unexpected.
Jason Goldberg:Yeah, for sure. Awesome. Well, so let's start off. Just tell us about yourself. Where are you from? What are your hobbies? You know, who's Emily?
Emily Chang:Sure. That's always the big question. Where am I from? I was born in the States. I've now lived half of my adult life in China and half in the United States. Same with my career. I'm married to a Korean American and I have a daughter who's Korean Chinese but born in America with an American passport. So I think we're all a little bit global citizens in that respect. And, in fact, on a first slight deviation, I think this is a an interesting conversation these days, people, especially those who are working between China and us have somehow felt compelled to pick aside to I want my kid raised in China or in the US what education do I want and it feels like if I make a stake in the ground, this is where I need to be until my kid graduates and I guess I feel differently even even right now as I'm a little bit stranded in Los Angeles. What's great is we can feel like we're home wherever we are home may not necessarily be the country or the place. It's how we define the space around us.
Jason Goldberg:That's That's terrific. What do you what do you do in your free time?
Emily Chang:I love spending time with my daughter though increasingly as she's about to turn 14 She does not always I will take all that time that I can get for as long as I can get it. I love to read. I love to be outside. And Los Angeles is great for that. Some of the things you forget how much you enjoy when you live in Shanghai due to weather it's the humidity the pollution of the insane mosquito It was, it's just been nice to be outside this last week. So yeah, I love working. I love moving. I love reading, I love spending time with my daughter loves spending time with people I love enjoy talking with you. So thank you for having me again.
Jason Goldberg:I'm excited to have you on this is a great topic that we're going to get into. But so let's talk about your career for a few minutes. You've had an incredibly accomplished career in marketing, you've worked across hospitality, retail tech. And now you're leading a significant agency in China. How did all that come about? Because I know when you were, when we spoke a few weeks ago, you were telling me you were actually a biology major. So how did how did you wind up in marketing?
Emily Chang:I think it's about being open to experiences and thinking a little bit more laterally in terms of where we can learn and what we might contribute. You know, like, as my daughter is going into high school, I think young people often feel pressured to say, What am I going to be when I grow up? We do ask this question. And I'm trying really hard not to ask young people that because what a lot of unnecessary pressure, if we don't have a set goal, which, if I may say more often than not, isn't even designed by us, but probably by our parents, then we can think much more broadly about what interests us and take each new opportunity more as learning than as a forward step in my career, per se. So though, I studied science, and I was very keen initially on being pre med, I had a situation where I suddenly realized that what drew me to medicine and taking care of sick kids, is in fact, making me very unsuitable to this career. Because I don't have that emotional distance. And you know, what a gift to learn that I was enrolled in med school and realizing at that moment, this can't be for me. And so I switched paths and went and got my MBA instead. And I think that was maybe a little bit of a brave move in some ways, because suddenly, you're walking away from what you thought you wanted to be into something you don't know. But knowing that plan A is probably not what I want, or it's not going to be good fit. Certainly not even knowing what Plan B is, it has to be a better direction. And what it does is it opens more doors in a different sort of vector. And that is a summary of my career. I've never planned people reach out a lot on LinkedIn, and they'll say, you've been in different industries. Tell me how you did it. How did you plan it? And frankly, none of it was really planned. I feel very lucky. I've been recruited from one job to the next by really broad minded people who can probably see what I've done, what I could contribute, and are willing to teach me the rest. And now, go ahead.
Jason Goldberg:No, I absolutely agree with that. It's about style. It's about intelligence. It's about thoughtfulness. It's the skills rather than the knowledge, the knowledge can come right that you can learn a particular retail business, but learning how to stand up a business lead a team, build strategy execute. That's, that's the skill set side. And I agree that when you think about it that way, it's easier to, to move across industries.
Emily Chang:Exactly, exactly. And I think we may be overly esteem and industry or a vertical. You didn't grow up in hospitality, how can you possibly understand our business? Or why did you come to the agency side? They those questions. They're not wrong. They're interesting. And they're coming from a place of curiosity, but they're also coming from a self inflicted definition? For sure. You know, and maybe I don't see it as changing an industry or going to the agency side, it's more, there's an interesting business challenge here, the model may be slightly different than what I'm accustomed to. But there are enough similarities across commercial business, that the nuances kind of make themselves clear. And if you approach a new opportunity with humility, and interest to learn, and not assuming what worked in your last role will work here. I think you just learned so much as you go. And in many ways that accelerates your career path, because frankly, it's not your goal.
Jason Goldberg:I think you talk a lot like a consultant. In a good way, in a good way, in that, you know, when I when I talk to CEOs, founders, executives, and I don't know their business, per se, I always encourage them to think about the customer first, rather than the rather than the product first, and it's the customer is the journey. Getting the customers mind, think about who is that customer what brands are they interacting with? Where do they work? I'm how do they earn money? What stresses them out. And if you really understand the customer, then the business and the product will follow. And if you think about the journey that way, and then that really moves across industries. So, so let's, you know, shift a little bit, I want to talk, I want to spend a good amount of time talking about the spare room. And so I had an opportunity to read the book over the last few weeks. It's an absolutely incredible book. I encourage our listeners to download it on Amazon or Walmart. But you know, in your words, Ken, can you tell the listeners about the story of the spare room?
Emily Chang:Sure, I'll tell you a little bit about how it started and how it evolved. Because that's one of the lessons I shared in my my own career journey, which is going with the flow in a lot of ways and seeing what transpires, I started off with a desire to share some of the stories from our own spare room where we've taken care of now 17 Kids, babies, young people over the course of the last 23 years or so. But the objective itself began to evolve. So it became only about five of those stories. And then I started including other stories from other people all over the world, different walks of life, different jobs, at different levels, because it's important to me that people don't draw the conclusion that this is Emily's spare room, the conclusion should be in fact, actually, this is a concept of social legacy. And absolutely, everybody has something more to contribute. And the model itself came from a very simple mindset of everybody has an offer something unique, that encapsulates our capabilities to the previous point, our experiences, what we're good at what we love to do our personality traits. The other side of the offer is what I'm calling the offense, which is that thing in the world that's a little bit offends you, it kind of captures your heart when you see it, and you think somebody has to do something about this. And that's somebody then is probably, so if you find the intersection of your offer, and your offense, that that middle of the Venn diagram, I call your social legacy, and legacy defines leaving something better than I found it, that's it, it doesn't have to be some very big idea, you know, and social is the space in which I want to have that impact. So for me, I started off thinking that the spare room was my social legacy. And over, I had the privilege of doing a TEDx talk on this subject. And it really forces you to think about what is my idea worth sharing, I started to realize, over the course of these nine months, the spare room is a part of the offer. But my social legacy is something different. And as I articulated it, it brought incredible clarity to who I am the priorities I make where I spend my time. And it transcended how I want to live my life at home, and how I want to live my life at work. So that's the fundamental idea of the social legacy. And I would love for it to become a movement where people start asking each other, what's your social legacy? What's your spare room, and it becomes an amplifying effect where people are then able to land on? Oh, my gosh, I do know what I bring to the world. I feel confident in that. And I know how I want to direct that offer. I think it can become incredibly powerful if people start kind of leaning into what they believe that they bring to the table and have more confidence and how they want to leverage those those skills.
Jason Goldberg:All right, great. Let's dive down vote, just so that everyone understands what you mean by your spare room? For those who haven't read the book. And you mentioned that 17 young people. Can you tell them what what you do with the spare room how that came about?
Emily Chang:Well, I think every one of these kids has come to us through a different way, which is in and of itself a little bit magical. I think the very first girl I've met when I was only 20 years old, and still an undergrad, she needed a safe place to stay. I brought her home. I didn't really know what I was doing. It wasn't a very intentional It wasn't even I can't say like a humanitarian born out of deep care. It was I can't just leave this kid on the side of the road. And sometimes we stumble into something that's much bigger than ourselves. So I think you know, sometimes just simply being willing to say yes, sometimes simply following that sort of instinct, your own spirit of reaching out to this kid and saying, I want to go home, it's cold. I'm tired. I have so much work to do, but I can't get myself to there's a reason for that. So stop and see if you can help in one moment because something I've learned is our capacity to give to contribute and to grow far exceeds our wildest imagination. So this girl came to have dinner with me she spent one night she spent three a week mum And she ultimately ended up living with a foster family. She then introduced another kid she had met on the street, who then moved in with me, and on and on, and every kid has come to us through a very unofficial channel. And I think that's part of sort of the openness that comes when you say yes to these opportunities, those opportunities will sort of start to find you. So our most recent kid we met through, again, a link a red thread of a previous kid we had, this kid's name is Wayne and he has hydrocephalus. He's our second little boy we've taken care of with hydrocephalus. He lived with us for about six or seven months, and just had an incredible progress report in his home living with us. And he's now living with a different family who were very much hoping will adopt him he's doing great. Again, similar to the first boy who Teo who I wrote about in the book, there are a lot of parallels, Wayne came to us and couldn't move really couldn't articulate any, any words. And now he can say a couple, he can use his hands, he can sit up unassisted, and just getting a chance to see the development, you know, and the confidence building among some of these people who we have the privilege of caring for in our spare room has been the most inspiring thing in my life.
Jason Goldberg:Calling it a spare room is, is interesting, write it because it talks about the space that you can lend, but it's so much more than that you're providing a sense of safety, a sense of ability to heal. For for every one of these kids, and and so it goes beyond the space. And and by giving them that space to heal your your true truly changing their life, because it's not just the room, right? It's the it's the safety, it's the support system behind that that they would never have had until they show up on your doorstep.
Emily Chang:Jason, I think that's a great point. That was my realization that the spare room itself isn't my social legacy. In fact, what we labeled it is kibou, which is a Korean word that means comfort for the spirit. That is that is a bigger idea. And that's what I found so empowering for my own leadership. I mean, this started to not only integrate with my work, but it started to transcend my work because it began shaping the kind of leader I more intentionally want to be. It is about creating comfort for the spirit. And what is that in our corporate lingo? It's D Ay ay ay. Right? It's diversity, inclusion, equity, accessibility, it's all of these things. But in my sort of normal language, it is just creating a comfort for the Spirit, you can come in and you can be exactly who you are. Present yourself without a mask on and know that you are not only accepted, you're respected. And people want to hear from you, you're valued. And I think that if you can, if you can create that kind of space as a leader, that's where people can thrive because they look forward to coming to work instead of dreading it or thinking I don't want to be in the workplace. I know that's a hot topic right now, whether it's actually physically being in the office or just being emotionally fully engaged. I believe people bring their best when they feel like they have a sense of belonging.
Jason Goldberg:So what, let's talk about leaders for a moment, because when we talk about leaders, we often think about it in the with the connotation of hey, their leadership, their leader in business, in healthcare in politics. Why is it important for a leader to have a social legacy?
Emily Chang:Well, these days, everybody knows that a business has to stand for something right? At McCann, we have this truth Central. It's a intelligent operating system. And basically, we do a lot of research all over the world. And we know that consumers globally expect businesses, individuals and government to equally contribute. That's sort of their their expectation. It is no longer the government will take care of us it is individually, what am I going to do? And what do I expect business to do when I buy a brand? What do I expect them to stand for? Where do I expect them to invest? These are meaningful changes in how we look at business, the business roundtable in I think it was August 2019. Right, right. As I was writing, the book came out right. Jamie Dimon and a group of leaders kind of establishes we have to do more than make money, we have to stand for something bigger. Well, for me, back to your question. We how do we help businesses stand for something more meaningful if we as leaders don't know what we individually stand for? We have to find congruence between who we are as leaders and the business that we serve and the people that we have the opportunity to lead. We can't find that congruence if we can't clearly define ourselves first.
Jason Goldberg:Can this be taught so I know this? This is within you? It's very clear. You're right, the moment you have that feeling, I can't leave this child on the street, that that's deep within you. That's very personal. You know, I have a social legacy of my own. And I volunteer in EMS for many years. And, and I like to try to make a difference, you know, one one patient at a time. So we all do that, but that's within us. But Can that be taught? Is that something that just happens? Or? How do you think about that?
Emily Chang:I think he can be shaped. And I think it can be nurtured, because fundamentally, I think everybody wants to contribute. Very, very few people say, I would like to do nothing for anyone else, and really just suck it all in for myself, maybe there is the rare person, but most people aren't that way. And that's why I came up with this super simple diagram, this Venn diagram model, because what I discovered, as I was kind of pulling together this TEDx Talk is people fall into one or the other camp, either. I generally know who I am, and what I offer, but I don't know where to direct it, the world is really big. Right? And the other side is, I know the thing that pisses me off, or the opportunity, opportunity or offense, either one, I know the thing I want to go work on. But what can I do, I'm just one person. So when you find an ability to define who I am, and stand firm in your confidence in that, equally, you define where you want to go put your energies. And that's why the book as you read is very much a workbook in many ways. With those reflective exercises, it's intended to help you hone in on each of these things. And then you write your social legacy, I really believe in the power of communication. When I write something down, the words become somehow cemented, it's a commitment. And then when I speak those words, and share them with somebody, what I'm now doing is sort of making a promise, because now others have heard those words, and they can hold me accountable to them. So helping people identify their social legacy, I think is a really powerful way to serve people. And to your point, maybe people don't know the language, I mean, I made it up. But maybe they can relate to it. And the goal is to help shape by providing a framework. And then to help nurture what side are you want, you know, your offer your offense? Do you know both? And you just need to sort of define that in between space. So I would love to invest more time and how do I help people land on this thing, and then turn those words into action.
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Jason Goldberg:So I've had an interesting debate, with leaders in recent years about the shift to being more vocal in the world. We've seen it in the United States, over the last few years where you have no large CEOs of large brands that are taking a stand on social and political issues. And I'll go out on a limb and say that as a society, we're in crisis right now, rights are being taken away from people, people around the world are still being persecuted in certain countries and regions. You know, as shocking as it is, we still have horrible food and healthcare shortages all around the world at a time where there there are first world countries that have so much. They're still inequities in different parts of the country in different parts of the world. So what I hear from some leaders, that sometimes they're concerned, what I hear from some leaders is that sometimes they're concerned that they don't speak up, they fear the consequences of alienating customers or employees. So obviously, having a social legacy can be personal, but it can also be brought to the office. Right? It can be something that it business takes on as a cause. So how do you feel about leaders standing up for cause publicly?
Emily Chang:I feel like it's, in fact, our responsibility. I think the more trust and responsibility that is given to a person, the more we owe back with the privilege of that role. I think anybody who is entrusted with a lot and is given a platform is being negligent by not using it. That said, we have to be wise as well. So let me step back. I would say they're probably Probably three things we should keep in mind. The first is courage. I do think it takes courage to step out and say, here's who I am. I mean, it took courage to write a book, though I've never written anything. And frankly, I don't know if I'm even a good writer. But let's write this thing, because I believe it's bigger than myself. And I want to try. That's courage. You know, and let's hope that it lands in a way that it's intended. The second thing is wisdom, which is courage does not mean complete fearlessness. Courage means having the bravery to do what we think is right, and where we feel called to do it. wisdom says, let's think about how that manifests. Am I at the right company? Does the company ethos match my own? And will they support what I have to say? So those two things I think, have to go hand in hand. We have to have courage, but we also need to be wise. And I think the third thing I would say is we want to be gracious. So it's very easy to think about courage. And those people who are throwing their fists in the air right now, I'm not sure that's my definition of courage. We want to be gracious to people, we want to try and withhold judgment, and not look to something and say that's wrong. Instead, let's lead with love. Let's think about what we believe in versus what others believe in and criticize that if we have the courage to stand for what we believe in the wisdom to understand the context in which we ought to share that belief and how to land it in the way that it's intended. And then the graciousness to land it in a way that is not judging others, but rather saying, here's who I am vulnerably here's what I believe, and I hope this is beneficial to you. Those would be the three words that kind of came to mind as you brought up that question.
Jason Goldberg:That's great. You know, we I've, you mentioned earlier in this chat, that it's incumbent upon companies to step up and also take care of other people and take care of society as well, in addition to their core mission, as a business. And I think we're starting to see that more and more right as perhaps social and certain social rights are taken away from, from people, employers are stepping up and and filling in the gap so that their employees don't suffer. How do you feel about that, you know, is that is that an employer's responsibility, I want to dig a little bit deeper on how much an employer should take care of its employees and really walk the walk right? If I can, for you to take care of your family, for you to take care of other people in society, we, as an employer, need to take care of our people.
Emily Chang:I think that's just the most foundational expectation for an employer is to take care of our people. I know that's particularly difficult when the economy is stressed. And when we have to make difficult choices, there have been some interesting things about crying CEOs in social media lately, you know, I've withheld judgment on that one, because we don't know what other people are really experiencing, right, we're all trying to put our own truth out there in a way, I believe or want to believe is is intended to be helpful to other people. So I think it is the responsibility of an employer to create that space, I'm going back to that word nurture. I see it as my role, not to just lead as in standing in the front and charging forward. But it's also standing alongside our people and working hand in hand, and then importantly, pushing and supporting from behind. I think all three of those dimensions of leadership are equally important. And it's upon us if we borrow the phrase, situational leadership, to understand Situational Leadership refers to how we engage with people based on what they need. I think this this dimensional leadership is the same idea, which is what does somebody need from me right now, perhaps they need me to stand in front and help sort of pave the way. Perhaps they just need a leader who understands and sympathizers and will sit alongside them so that they feel that level of day to day support. And sometimes we need our leaders to stand behind. I think these three dimensions are all necessary in terms of creating and cultivating a great workspace.
Jason Goldberg:Great. So next question is probably my most important question of this chat. Those of us who are parents or who have children in our lives. It's incumbent at my belief that it's incumbent upon us to set an example so that the next generation learns and does it better. So how has your legacy? The spare room of supporting people influenced your daughter?
Emily Chang:I love that you said that's the most important question. This is what drew me to you in the very beginning, yes, your your brand of leadership and what you believe. I think it is shaping who she is and who she's going to become. I think just like as leaders, our responsibility is to nurture and cultivate a space where people can thrive equally, that's our job as parents is to cultivate a safe space where our kids can explore, experiment and thrive. It's really important for her to learn the things she's not good at, and not see those as failure. But wow, that's fantastic. Now I know I don't like that. And then try new things to figure out what it is she does love to do. It's interesting, because especially coming from an Asian background, a lot of times we're strongly encouraged by our parents to pursue the things we're good at. Here's what's interesting. We don't always love the things we're good at. My daughter is an incredibly talented artist, but she doesn't like it. So I've had to pull myself back from encouraging her, Hey, do you want to take classes? Do you want to submit this for a contest or a gallery? Stop it, if she's not passionate about it, let her explore. And let me cultivate and nurture. She doesn't need me in front in that dimension. She needs me alongside and she needs me behind her no matter what she wants to learn. So in the social legacy, I think it's about role modeling. Am I showing her that I'm really investing in what's important to me, the worst thing that would happen is I taught this stuff, but I live differently. I don't know what would happen to the kid who experiences that. But I hope that what Lainey is seeing is I talk about this stuff is super important to me. I love that I feel like I've had the privilege through life experience to define my own social legacy. And I deeply want to help other people uncover theirs. So does she see that? That's where I invested my time? Does she see that that's what drives me and motivates me. That's what inspires me as a leader and informs how I operate. If that's the case, then I think what she's taking away is words are really important, not not only because they do become a sort of contract, which we talked about before, but because we they become the mantra by which we live.
Jason Goldberg:That's phenomenal. So one question, I always ask my guests. Because every one of our guests is a Triple Threat leader. Tell us about one to two leaders who you've learned from along the way. And they can either be great leaders, or bad leaders, right? We learn what not to do as well. What did you can say who they are if you'd like, but certainly what what did they teach you?
Emily Chang:I think to one leader who did something really phenomenal. This was before Laney was even born. So I worked at the Walmart team with Procter and Gamble. I don't remember when you guys love to look it up on my LinkedIn. I worked for a woman named Tia Jordan. She was she operated in a way I couldn't understand. She was so accepting of what I would consider borderline unacceptable behavior. People kind of back that right people stumbling into work late kind of hungover drinking Red Bull, or other people being probably pretty sharp around the edges. She was able to accept so much of this and I kept thinking, How does she deal with is why isn't she having been raised in Procter and Gamble and grown up through you know, sort of an engineering background? Why isn't she shaping them? And now we would call that inclusion. But we didn't even have the word back then. It's sort of like when Brene Brown introduced this idea of vulnerability and suddenly gave us words to the things that we were feeling and didn't know how to express. I think Tia Morell modeled inclusion to a degree that I didn't understand or appreciate until somebody gave me the words. And we started talking about DNI and I thought, oh, that's what she was doing. It's not just about numbers. It's not about representation of different backgrounds or skin colors. It is about truly understanding who people are bringing up the very best of them, and creating a space where they feel like they can be themselves. I think we had some incredibly talented people there, who, based on their behavior, others may not have seen or recognize the value, but because she was able to accept the way they operated. As I'm thinking of a couple of people in particular that they are all insanely successful today. I think Tia was the person who unlocked that for them.
Jason Goldberg:Very nice. That's a great example. Well, Emily, this was an amazing conversation. I loved learning about your journey. about defining your social legacy. You're an amazing leader of consequence. And as a reminder, for our listeners, you can find Emily's book, the spare room on Amazon and Walmart. I encourage you to look up her website, the social legacy.com The correct yes, social dash legacy. That's right social dash legacy.com. And, and to watch her TED talks, you'll you'll learn a lot. So thanks so much for being with us today.
Emily Chang:Thanks, Jason. And thanks for encouraging us to be triple threat leaders.
Jason Goldberg:I want to thank Emily for joining us on the leaders perspective podcast. Emily is an incredible person and an incredible executive. And what she's doing with her spare room is nothing short of saintly, she is forever changing lives. Emily's book outlines a framework for leaders to identify and define their own social legacy. I encourage all of our listeners to read it, and think about how to apply that in your own lives. So at the end of every podcast, we take a few minutes, and we think about the top three things that we learned from our guests today. And there were three things that I noted down during the conversation with Emily. Number one, we have to find congruence between who we are as leaders and the business that we serve, and the people that we have an opportunity to lead. And we can't find that congruency until we clearly define ourselves first. Number two, three things that we should keep in mind as leaders that define our social leadership style or as we define our social leadership style. You need the courage to stand up for what you believe in. You need wisdom, of understanding the context in which you should share that belief. And you should be gracious in sharing who you are, and what you believe in. And most importantly, as part of that, always lead with love. The third thing that I learned is that your social legacy can shape the leader that you want to be they are, as I mentioned earlier, inextricably linked so be exactly who you are, be genuine and and serve people. So thank you again for listening to the leaders perspective podcast. As always, have a great day and be your best self.
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