Matt and Katie's Victory; Overcoming Porn Addiction and Betrayal

Ever thought about the hidden struggles that some couples face? Well, prepare to be inspired by Matt and Katie, a strong couple who have battled betrayal, trauma, and porn addiction. From tales of childhood addiction to rebuilding trust in the aftermath of betrayal, they bare it all in this intimate discussion. They share their journey, beginning with the day Matt disclosed his secret addiction and how they've since found strength in their faith, love, and an unwavering commitment to each other.

Discover the powerful role of love and faith in overcoming life's toughest challenges. Matt and Katie have walked through the fire and emerged stronger, using Jesus Christ's example of love as their guiding light. They unravel the profound power of love and share insights on the importance of self-love before serving others. Listen to their story to gain a deeper understanding of struggle, faith, and the healing power of love.

In addition, you'll find out how community and support groups play a critical role in the healing process. Matt and Katie reveal their experiences running support groups for men and women grappling with similar issues. They invite you to reach out, emphasizing that opening up to healing and community is the first step on the path to recovery. This episode is not just a testament to human resilience, but also a resource for any individual or couple in similar struggles. Tune in and be inspired by Matt and Katie's unwavering faith, love, and commitment to healing and virtue. Their story is a beacon of hope, and a reminder that we are never alone in our battles.

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Chapters

• 0:23 Couple's Betrayal and Porn Addiction
• 9:43 Overcoming Betrayal Trauma and Finding Healing
• 17:18 Overcoming Pornography and Finding Virtue
• 30:49 The Power and Importance of Love
• 38:27 The Importance of Loving the Lord
• 42:12 Overcoming Struggles and Finding Faith
• 47:45 Support Groups and Instagram Community

Transcript

Dalyon: 0:23

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Remember podcast. It's been a little bit, hasn't it?

McKayla: 0:27

It's been so long, but we're so happy to be back. This is Dalyan and I'm Mikaela, and we have two special guests with us to start off her second season, so we're so excited we have Matt and Katie with us. They are amazing, an amazing couple who spread awareness about betrayal, trauma and porn addictions. If you guys want to look at their Instagram page, it's upward and onward and then ours is rememberpodcast and you can find that on Instagram. But they're here to share their story and how God has helped them through that struggle and experience. So we'll turn the time over to you guys.

Katie: 1:06

Thanks so much. Yeah, so kind of like you guys said. So we're Matt and Katie. We've been married for almost seven years. We have two toddlers. We have two boys, a four year old and a two year old, and we're originally from Utah. But a year ago we kind of felt like we wanted to switch things up. I don't know. We just kind of felt inspired that we wanted to move somewhere. So we ended up moving to South Carolina. Neither of us had ever stepped foot in South Carolina before, or like the South in general, and we just randomly bought a house here.

Matt: 1:37

It has some property Katie's making this story sound like we just randomly wanted to move. Katie wanted to buy like a hobby farm. She wanted to buy like two plus acres and get like animals, and so we ended up buying six acres, and we live in South Carolina now.

Katie: 1:52

So it was with purpose. It was with purpose, but it was also just kind of a random place.

Matt: 1:57

It was random.

Katie: 1:58

Yeah, never seen our house, so that's where we're living right now. We absolutely love it and yeah, and so we're running our Instagram page and we've done lots of other things in the past. We kind of started with a podcast and we just really want to get our message out about betrayal, trauma and about porn use. I'm out. We'll kind of share a little bit about our story.

Matt: 2:20

Yeah, so, like Katie said, we talk about betrayal, trauma and porn addiction. I first, like, saw pornography for the very first time when I was like six years old and then I started viewing it regularly by the time I was like 11 or 12. And I went that way until I was about 16 years old when I finally kind of got the courage after like a Sunday school lesson or like a camera, like a young man's camp or something to talk to my bishop about it. I didn't tell anyone in the world, but I went and told my bishop and he helped me see that I could work through this. But then I should tell my parents. So I told my parents and with their help, with my parents, my bishop and other people, I was able to get clean and then kind of go on a mission after that.

Matt: 3:04

And so I got on my mission, had an amazing mission, spent two years there.

Matt: 3:08

That's where Katie and I met and I got home and Katie had already been home for a year and so when I got home from my mission we started dating like immediately and things were going really well and within two months we were engaged off my mission, but also within two months from my mission, I felt right back into my struggles with pornography use and instead of reaching out to Katie and kind of letting her in and saying this is something that I'm struggling with, this is what I'm dealing with If we're like going to get married here, you should know I just like hid my porn struggles from her and I didn't tell her anything about it.

Matt: 3:44

And it went that way through our wedding, through our engagement, through our wedding and then through the first year of our marriage, and Katie had no idea that I was struggling with porn, that I had fallen back into it, that I was using as a coping mechanism and just really struggling, and she thought things were going really well. She didn't know anything about it. And finally, the day before our first anniversary, she started like asking me some more questions and I'll probably let you tell the rest of the story but she ended up finding out that I had been struggling, that I had been lying to her, and that was super difficult for her.

Katie: 4:18

Yeah.

Katie: 4:18

So, backing up a little bit, when we were dating and engaged, I kind of knew like I'm supposed to ask about that, right, like you kind of know, like general idea of like oh, I should ask my future spouse or my fiance about like porn use. I didn't really know what to ask, I wasn't super educated about it, so I kind of just asked, you know, just some vague questions. And he was kind of like no, like I'm fine, or like I used to struggle, but I'm fine now, kind of thing. And so I was like phew, like I'm so glad we don't have to deal with that in our marriage. Like got a good one, kind of things, you know. So I'm feeling good about that.

Katie: 4:51

We get married, and then, a few weeks before our first anniversary, I kind of started feeling like something was off a little bit. I started having like these questions come up in my mind and like for that whole year I would sometimes ask him like hey, matt, like how are you doing with pornography? You're just like really vague questions, you know. And he was just like I'm good or like no, I'm not struggling or whatever you know. So I was doing my best to like try to keep up on it, but I just didn't really know how to talk about it. And then so on our first anniversary, I just felt a really specific impression. The Holy Ghost told me that I needed to talk to Matt about this, I need to ask him some more specific questions, and that he had been lying to me. And so I started asking him like really specific questions, kind of started like prying a little bit more, and it quickly started coming out that he had been lying to me, he had fallen back into his porn use and that he had been lying to me for entire engagement and the first year of our marriage. And so I was just completely devastated.

Katie: 5:51

I was so I remember just being like really, really scared. I was just kind of like again like I wasn't super educated about this. I was just like, oh my gosh, the only people that I ever know, or like the only people I've ever heard about who struggle with this, like they get divorced, or like all these terrible things happen in their marriage, or like he's having an affair, like just really extreme versions of this problem, right. And so I was feeling really scared and I kind of was just like kind of like what we were talking about earlier.

Katie: 6:18

I was just kind of like Okay, here's a list of all the things you need to do, like you're going to go talk to the bishop, like this Sunday. You're going to like go to therapy, you're going to do all these things. So I kind of had like a checklist of the things that I felt like he needed to do and that seemed like it was working and he was like really good about it and we kind of started like we went to therapy, we started going to the church's 12 step program and the spouse and family support program, and so I felt like things were going really well and I was feeling. I was feeling good.

Matt: 6:49

Yeah and things were going well. I did have like a brief period where I spent cold turkey sober and that was like really good that the meetings were great. But then I like had a relapse. I told Katie about it and then I had like a relapse really soon after that and I was like oof, like I can't tell Katie about this, she's going to be super upset. And what happens when you like hide, like that is, then you have another one and you're like oh, like I can't tell her this one now.

Matt: 7:12

And it just went like that. It's built up and I was just struggling again. Basically the same as before, but this time I was going to meetings, going to therapy, going to all the things and just lying to therapists. I was lying to people at 12 step meetings. I was lying to sponsors and to Katie and it was just really bad. Now I was like lying to a lot of people and struggling with it and it was just kind of like I stuck again and it went like that for about a year. So Katie thought things were going really well. She thought I was like 150 days sober, that I was doing good, but actually I was. I was lying to her and really everyone.

Katie: 7:45

And then the same thing happened to me again, where I was randomly just driving home from somewhere and then the spirit spoke to me again, which is a big deal for me. I don't usually get like really specific impressions like this, but I got a really specific impression Matt's lying to you, you need to go home and you need to talk to him about it, and it was just like the worst feeling in the world is, just like a gut punch. But I was also just so grateful for that tender mercy that the Lord gave me again, because I mean, who knows how long it would have been for until I found out again, until you would have told me. So anyway, I went home and I confronted him and I was like I feel like you're lying to me, it's going on. And then it just came out again that he had been lying to me for another year, and that was just even more devastating than the first time because I just I felt so hopeless, like we were doing all the things. I was doing all the things. I was like helping him with his recovery, I was like making sure we were like getting this under control, and so I just kind of felt like, if those things don't work like what is going to work. Maybe we really are going to get a divorce, maybe he's never going to overcome this, and I just really spiraled in fear and in my betrayal trauma symptoms, and so that was a.

Katie: 8:55

It was such a dark and difficult place for both of us as individuals and in our marriage. But then I feel like that was also a turning point for us where we actually started making changes, where I realized that my problems were not just stemming from his problems, my betrayal trauma symptoms and my fears, my anxieties. I needed to deal with those on my own. I needed to turn to the Lord. I needed help and support instead of just like trying to control or like manipulate Matt. And Matt really kind of started to realize he had more of a problem to dishonesty and to lying than he really did to the porn use, and so we both just kind of dug deep and spent a lot of time working on ourselves as individuals, and then we came together and started working together as a couple as well.

Matt: 9:43

Yeah, and for me, like when, when Katie called me out that second time, I just realized like the game is up, like I cannot lie to Katie anymore, because if I do, god will tell her like again that I'm lying. So there was no hiding it. And that was huge for me because, like Katie said, I realized that lying was a bigger problem than pornography for me, and pornography is a huge problem and it's a terrible thing, but it's like its effects are multiplied when someone lies about it and deceives, because then you're stuck in this pit of shame and you can't get help and you're not vulnerable and open with the people around you, and so it's just this terrible like situation where you're lying and you're going for him. And so, like Katie said, that's when I got serious. I asked someone to like support me to be a sponsor going through the 12-step program. I got serious about finishing the 12 steps. Every single time I made any sort of mistake, had any sort of slip up, I told Katie or I told the sponsor, and we worked like that and things went really well.

Matt: 10:40

And I had a few slip-ups after that that I immediately told Katie and the sponsor about, but after a few months got better and things went really well, and now it's been over four and a half years of sobriety for me, and Katie and I have spent the better part of that time facilitating 12-step meetings within the church.

Matt: 10:59

We did we've done like podcasts, we've done we have our Instagram account right now that we're doing Katie put out a course for women, helping them overcome the effects of betrayal trauma, dealing with, like, the effects of their spouse's poor news. We do coaching, we do all kinds of things now, just trying to basically help people who are where we have been and are struggling with this like terrible thing in their life and show them that there's hope and that there's healing. Because we've found that hope and healing through Jesus Christ, through His Atonement and through the Church's 12-step program, the Church's family, spouse and family support programs and just like the, the unity that comes in a marriage when, like, we're open and honest and working together, and so that's kind of where we've landed over the last few years.

Katie: 11:45

And when we were going through this, we I don't know for me I really felt like there was such a lack of resources. For me as the spouse it really felt like there was. There were a lot of resources for the person who was struggling with poor news, like bishops or leaders know, kind of like okay, send them to therapy or send them to the 12 steps here's a manual, things like that and for me, or bishops or whoever I was talking to, they were just like I'm so sorry and like of course they were doing their best, but I just felt really alone and I just didn't have a lot of resources. I didn't even really know what I was going through. I didn't know that it was called betrayal trauma, you know so, and just in general, like we just kind of felt isolated, we felt alone. We didn't know one other person who was going through something like this and there's so much shame around this topic and so it's just really important to us that we give other couples tools and resources to help them on their journey.

Katie: 12:43

We also felt like it's important to us that we kind of integrate the gospel and Jesus Christ into our resources and into our tools. There are a lot of like porn coaches or life coaches out there who just kind of like specifically talk about quitting porn or betrayal, trauma or whatever. But we just it's so much of our healing came through Jesus Christ, through the gospel, through the 12 step program and of course the 12 step program isn't perfect and there are limitations to that but we just we have such strong testimonies and have had so many spiritual experiences around our struggles and around our challenges and we just really believe that so much of the hope and the healing that we found has been through Jesus Christ. So that's something that's important to us to give couples as well the practical advice, but also the spiritual advice.

Matt: 13:34

Yep, so that's kind of our story. That's where we're at, that's what we've been through, and we just know that there's hope for other people who are out there struggling and that's why we're we're trying to put out resources and help meet them where they're at. So that's us.

McKayla: 13:48

Wow, that is just amazing. I picked up so many different things like I mean, even though I don't struggle with this or whatnot, but your guys's testimony and your guys's like, how much like you guys have learned and how much you want to help people through your because of your struggles, is such a strength. Because, either way, like I just learned, like you know, god is aware of you and even if you try and hide things from him, he is, he has your back and he knows what's best and so he's going to help you, even if you're stubborn or if you want to hide. He really knows, like the best part of repentance and the atonement is having that change of heart and being humble and realizing and not being prideful, and you know your mistakes and whatnot that God, like he is there for you and he really has the best desires for you and wants you to overcome and really is aware and even if you hide things from him, he knows the best thing, like the best ways to help you, and that was through Katie, you know, she kept getting these promptings and being your spouse, like you guys are battle partners and you guys, short, like you guys, exemplified that even though it's hard, god is your best battle partner too, and so he knew your guys's struggles, both sides, and he wanted to help you guys the best way and the I really can you know.

McKayla: 15:17

It's amazing to see how the atonement has helped both of you guys, and not just Matt, but also Katie, and oh man, I don't know how that would be, but I bet it's so hard, and I love that you guys are trying to spread awareness about this, and for both sides, and really making your your past weaknesses becoming strengths in your marriage, and for those who may be secretly hiding too and you guys can be like how God was in your life, kind of poking at you, saying, hey, he needs help, hey, you guys should do this or whatever. You guys are that tool for other people now and that's just amazing and I'm so glad that you guys shared that down. What do you think? I think.

Dalyon: 16:01

I think I have a lot of thought. When we were coming to do this episode because we're, you know, we're starting a new season, starting off strong I was like Michaela, what are we going to be talking about today? And she's like, oh well, it's uh, it's the upward, upward, inward, outward. Is that what that was?

McKayla: 16:23

yeah, yeah, I get to it outward.

Dalyon: 16:25

Oh, it's hard to remember I don't, I don't know, I don't remember, but I'm just reading it on the screen but um, it's like it's the, the pornography people. I was like, oh, we're really starting strong um, but this is a.

Dalyon: 16:39

This is a topic that really hits near and dear to home because and we've talked about it on the, on the podcast before we had a wonderful um gal that came on and shared her experience with pornography, because it's not just a male specific problem, but there are, um you know, women that struggle with it, young girls that struggle with it um, there's just a lot of guys that struggle with it, and so it's just, you know, it seems like that's the um, those are the only people, but there were not.

Dalyon: 17:11

But, that being said, like, um, we've talked about it in that episode and I've opened up about some of my issues. You know, um, I've struggled with pornography all my life. Like 15 years I've struggled with it. I think the first time I viewed it was about the same age that you were saying, um, and it really kind of took hold of me throughout my all of my youth and I've realized, as I've been dating and especially focusing on uh, working towards marriage, is I see sexual things as something to hide from, because I've been so, um, so full of guilt about the things that I was doing in secret and so, like, like, I've always like, just hidden myself from, uh, from the world of like, sexual things because, um, because of that guilt, but really it's, you know, a beautiful thing that, um, that should only be looked into and and experience through, you know, uh, righteous marriages and such or just marriage in general.

Dalyon: 18:17

And I've uh, you know, this summer, this last summer, like, I went to Alaska and I had an amazing experience there. But part of the reason why I was going and I think you know the Lord was pushing me there was to to basically not run away from my problems, so to speak, but to speak, but to like To. As you, as you both mentioned, you both needed that time for yourselves, to work on yourselves before you can come together. And I think that's what the last three months for myself was, as I was working on myself so much and the crazy thing about it was like I needed to get out of Utah to do it and you know this isn't for everyone like you don't have to go to you know the Caribbean, or like down to I Don't know South America, or just go on this wild adventure to overcome pornography. That's not what you need to do.

Dalyon: 19:14

But but I I felt like I needed to go to Alaska and to experience being completely on my own, completely alone, to experience those trouble, troubles, and you know I, I was working through a program and I relapsed several times and it was very, very, very difficult. But I also I Became really emotional while I was gone is what I did. But I Developed such a relationship with my savior through those hard, hard challenges. And you know I'm I worked on a farm like I. I Physical work does not scare me whatsoever, like at all, but holy crap, does anything emotional? Oh my goodness, that is harder work to get through then then I'd rather dig a ditch all day long, but a shovel in my hand. But that emotional work to discover yourself, discover your limits and Discover your priorities.

Dalyon: 20:27

I realized that I was using pornography as a coping mechanism for things that I couldn't control, and you know so much of that comes from my relationships With people that I have, because there's no control in relationships with other people. We can only control our own agency. Sometimes it feels like you can't even do that, especially when you're Relapsing after elite. You know it's relapsed after relapsed and then you just feel like you can't make those decisions. I don't really know where I'm going with all of this, but, marla, the story is, you know, life is hard and and overcoming pornography is a very, very difficult thing, and what I think got me through it Up to this point was focusing on virtue.

Dalyon: 21:17

Oh my goodness, how powerful is that virtue that is? I think virtue is light. It's the light of Christ. We, we gain virtue, we gain his light as we grow closer to him, and that's what makes it. You know. You look at members who are active and who are, you know, living the gospel. They just shine so bright. That's their virtue and that's what I've been focusing on and that's what's gotten me through this last summer and that's what's I'm sure gonna get me through this school year too, is Striving for that virtue, that power. I love that, yeah, I love that.

Matt: 22:07

I love that you focus so much on how to those emotional, that emotional work, especially like again like not the stereotype, but we as men we struggle with, like deal like our emotions and it sounds like, oh, like I don't want to be sensitive or like emotional all the time, but the truth is like those, those who can master our emotions and like what that means to me is like Understanding and recognizing them, and we have like power over ourselves. We know like what we feel and then we can be like better instruments at God's hands, instead of just like pushing things off, coping through different ways, hiding Aspects of ourselves. We know who we are and then we can like be effective in doing that.

Matt: 22:42

I love what you said about virtue, too, because so often we focus on like the problem at hand, which is like pornography, but like the truth is like and and we can't Just do what I'm about to say, but like we do need to focus like on the Savior, like that is everything, and his virtue, his, his grace, his love is like ultimately, like what we fill the gaps in our life with. And obviously we do have to like put in work, we have to like make sure that we're, you know, doing all the right things, but, like focusing on the Savior, it's just such a powerful way of of having like, a why, and it brings us power Not only to heal, but to like, transform and become better. So I love that. Thanks for sharing. That's super vulnerable and Really powerful. Yeah, I was just gonna say like I don't know you very well, but I'm not sure what you're saying.

Katie: 23:26

I don't know you very well, but I'm so impressed that you were Like humble enough and vulnerable enough to share that and that's just. That just shows how far you've come and like where you're at right now in like your recovery and, of course, you're not perfect None of us are perfect but just like I just feel so much like Humility from you and I'm just I'm so proud of everything that you've accomplished and it seems like you've done Such hard work because, like you said, it's it's grueling, and like I haven't been through it personally, but seeing Matt go through that it's just like I am in awe of every single person who struggles with something like this and for them to overcome it to any degree, it's just so incredible. So I just love seeing that from you and I know like so many listeners are probably just Can relate to everything that you said so deeply. So thanks so much for sharing that.

McKayla: 24:21

Yeah, yeah, um, I just would like to add, like I don't know, going through Any type of struggle, it's hard. You know, everyone has their struggles and I had like a moment where I mean a couple years ago, but Even this recently like I'm kind of in that area where I'm like okay, like, and I relate my struggles and like Learn from them but also grow and I love your guys's. I know I said it wrong at the beginning, I'm so sorry.

McKayla: 24:58

But, you're good upward and inward and onward. I love that like outward, out, upward and whatever it is so hard to remember.

McKayla: 25:06

It's like you're the worst Anyway but I, I love it because, um, you humble yourself, you know, in your struggles, and you look upward to God. And that's the first like. I feel like that's the greatest first step. And I've experienced that, um, like a couple summers ago, like I was struggling with something and I was like you know what I? I cannot do this alone anymore. You know, god was not like we weren't meant here to be alone, and he knows that and that's why he died for us, um, and so the best first step is to look on upward. And then Second thing is how is, how are you going to allow him to change yourself inwardly? How are you going to allow him to transform yourself through the atonement? And I feel like that is still A work in progress for me and probably a lot of people.

McKayla: 26:02

It's like that constant, like choosing to change and constantly choosing. Okay, how am I gonna work harder today? How am I gonna, you know, push forward, um, especially when you feel like, especially like relapsing or like, no matter what struggle it is, you always feel like there's moments where you kind of stumble, you know, but I always love the saying like, no matter where you are, your two steps forward, or what is it? It's like you're two steps farther than you were, like Before, like, even if you take a step back, you're already two steps further. I don't know, but something like that where, like, even if you stumble, even if you kind of take a step back, you're already two steps further than where you were from the beginning. There you go. That's Love that, because, you know, when I have been in like the deep, dark tunnel of you know, trying to find that light again, trying to find that hope, and maybe even stumbling, I know that God will pick me back up.

McKayla: 27:06

And it's a point of acceptance too. That's what I've tried, been trying to learn too. Is like accepting my fault, accepting the imperfections of myself, not like realizing that I'm not perfect, being accepting of that by allowing God to help me Go forward. And that's the outward part. Is like how are you going to allow your transformation inwardly and how are you going to go outward with that? Like, move forward and Just have that determination, effort, because you know God loves effort.

McKayla: 27:41

And I don't know, I just think, I just imagine it like being in a tunnel and you're slowly getting there and then, as you make those commitments, as you just put your faith and trust in God's hands and just Like give up everything and just say, look, I am doing the best I can. It reminds me of A picture I saw. It's where God's there's, like this woman and she has cracks, like almost like a sculpture, and like she's broken. But God is Painting the pieces back together, or gluing the pieces back together, and he will make the difference. No matter where you are, even if you feel like you're not fully there, he will take care of the rest.

McKayla: 28:23

So I love controlling things, like not in a bad way, but sometimes I don't know, but like I love being in control. And when things are out of control, I start freaking out. And so when I'm struggling and I feel like there's no, I'm impatient too. And so, like, if I feel like there's nothing going on, if I'm like not moving forward and like I don't really have control of the outcome of things, I freak out and I'm learning to accept that, but also accept that God will be there with me and to trust him because he trusts me. So I don't know. And then, going through that tunnel and working onwardly and outwardly or whatever, you will finally see the light, and it may be slow, it may be a glimpse, but soon enough you will be kind of free of that. And that's how the Atomant works is, you know, slowly changing and moving, and God will take care of the rest. I don't know, that was kind of a big field, but I love that.

Katie: 29:19

I love that. I feel like that was like a beautiful description of what our name is and like everything that you described is exactly why we kind of branded that way, because we've seen that in our own lives, just like as individuals and in our own recovery. And something that you were saying kind of just made me think that I feel like so much of both of our journeys kind of like the overarching feeling or question is just kind of like am I enough? I feel like Matt struggled with that. He's gone through so many ups and downs with his own self worth and trying to understand what that looks like when he's sinning and how to use the Atomant for that.

Katie: 29:59

And I've struggled with that in my betrayal trauma and just in my personal life. Am I enough for God, am I enough for my husband? And I just love that what you were saying, that Heavenly Father loves each of us so individually and so deeply and whatever we're going through, it doesn't really matter because we aren't enough. And I just think that's a really just a human tendency that whatever we're going through, everyone's just kind of questioning am I enough? And of course you are, you know. But it's just kind of like our own personal journeys of trying to find that self worth and the divine worth that only Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ can give you.

McKayla: 30:38

Yeah.

Dalyon: 30:42

I can I share a poem with you guys?

Katie: 30:47

Yeah, of course.

Dalyon: 30:49

I so, on my spiritual journey, I got into poetry.

Katie: 30:56

I love that. It's awesome.

Dalyon: 30:58

It's kind of funny, but so I was just as I was in Alaska. I was just redefining what love means to me, what virtue it means to me, what all of these good qualities mean to me, because I felt like I didn't have them, I didn't possess them, and kind of like what you were just saying like am I enough? And it's hard to feel like you're enough when you just all you do is make mistakes. And I love Brad Wilcox's talk. His Grace is Subficient.

Dalyon: 31:36

That's a good one, that's one that I've always termed to you, because we really are enough, but it's I don't know what I'm saying, but love, love and charity has so much power, and I think that is what brings virtue into our lives. And so I wrote this poem about what love is and what love means to me, and I'll just read it real fast. It says what is love? What is love to me? Such a loaded question, I wonder what the answer might be. Love is a happy feeling, oh.

Dalyon: 32:13

But this won't suffice. Love is so much more, for love is sacrifice. Love can be felt, love can be shown. Love is given to all, but it is never your own, for love is what connects us. It brings hearts close. It can only be given to those you chose. It can never be taken. We call that vanity.

Dalyon: 32:32

But love is selfless. It brings us our sanity. Love comes from humility and heals all of humanity. But hate is its opposite. It hurts all who possess it. Love isn't made of what you feel. It's so much more. Love is an action. It's what you do, despite how you feel. Love is hard, yet it can come so easy. It often hurts, but that's what gives it worth. Love isn't comfortable, yet it gives comfort. Love is personal, yet meant to be shared.

Dalyon: 33:06

I know it can be difficult to love when life seems to get in the way, but when talking about love, there is only one last thing to say, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. The example has been said Jesus the greatest of all is the one. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Let this be a lesson that we are his. He loves us. For that we are sure. The power of his love is the greatest cure. I pray the world will come together, not to worship pride or hate, but to worship God and express his love to one another. I dream of a brighter world, for he is the light in the life of the world. It can be done, it's been done before. But as for now, I bid thee adieu, farewell, and I love you.

Dalyon: 33:59

So I wrote that as I was going through kind of a hard time, but I wrote that in about five minutes, not saying that to brag, but it was completely just like a beam of light. God was inspiring me. When you feel God's love, really feel his love, there's nothing that you cannot do. There's nothing that you cannot accomplish. And his love, as I said in the poem, it's the greatest cure. It has the ability to allow you to overcome anything and, I think, for anybody that is struggling with pornography.

Dalyon: 34:45

Even still, like we've said before, focus on Jesus Christ. But I want to, I'd like to go a little bit further than that. It's one thing to just focus on him, it's another thing to step forward while looking at him. You need to act in one way, shape or form, if God is ever going to do anything with you, and I think that's what I needed. For so long I thought I was acting, but really I was just putting on a show, and then I finally realized that and I finally started to take those steps forward. I started to understand myself, to have desires, to understand myself, and I started to love myself.

Dalyon: 35:38

The two great commandments love the Lord, thy God, and love thy neighbor as thyself. Love it's the driving force of the gospel, it's the driving force of humanity. Love is just so, so powerful, and when you love thy neighbor as thyself, you're loving your God. But the first neighbor you need to love is yourself, because when you love thy neighbor as thyself, you're going to express feelings towards other people that you feel towards yourself, and so you can't serve anyone until you love yourself. It's like I just went and got my WFR certification Wilderness First Responder. I had to get that when I was in Alaska and the first thing that they pounded into our heads and they do this with First Aid or First Responder or Boy Scouts or Lifeguarding save yourself first. First, make sure you're okay and then focus on those around you. And I think we're often at least in my case, we're taught so much like, like focus on everyone else and I think that's a great thing, but don't forget about yourself. Don't let yourself, you know, fall behind while you're helping other people. Love yourself.

McKayla: 37:12

Yeah that leads me to. So I gave a talk recently and the topic that I chose? Because they said you could choose your topic, we're not going to give you one. So I was like, oh crap, I wasn't going to talk about it, but it struck me to the heart that I needed to talk about the things that I was struggling with and kind of what you did and how it's been a strength to me and kind of give a message. And it led me and you remind me of what it was and the topic was love is style me more than these.

McKayla: 37:49

And remember when Christ was with the disciples and talking to them about, to each one of them, and saying love is style me more than these, like more than the fish, more than the loaves, more than the earthly things. And we kind of need to reflect that, reflect that in our own lives. Do you love the Lord more than your weaknesses, more than your struggles, more than the things going on in your life? Do you love the Lord? You know it's just one of the, it's the greatest and first commandment is that. And to love your neighbor but also to love yourself.

McKayla: 38:27

And I like writing this talk, like I learned so much about the Lord's love for us and the Atonement and how, and I even talked to my husband about this and I was like, man, I feel like I don't feel the savior, like I feel like I'm kind of distant and my husband is so, so and he was like, okay, well, what have you been doing? You know, what are you doing throughout your day? Are you sacrificing the things that you normally do for him? And are the things that you're doing for him Are you doing them for yourself or are you doing it because you love him? And what are your desires? And that changed my perspective on everything. Like, you know what? Like, yeah, like when I say my prayers, I'm just asking and asking and asking for things selfishly, like saying, hey, like you know, can you do this, this? Like, please help me with this? You know, but what am I doing in return? Like, what am I sacrificing in return? How am I showing him that I love him? And so apply that question into your lives Do you love the Lord more than your addictions? Do you love the Lord more than the heart-wrenching and like, sometimes horrible things that can happen in your lives? But are you striving to realize that? You know I love the Lord more than this and having that trust in him really, really pulls you through and it's crazy how much his love can affect your life and I feel like that's why that's one of the greatest commandments.

McKayla: 40:12

And he said that first is to love me. And it reminds me of when he was like I will, and I can't remember I think it was in John, I don't know, but he was talking about do not worry about, like the things, don't worry about food, clothes, your homes, do not worry about the things of the world. Love me and I will take care of the rest. And sometimes it comes to that moment when you're on your knees and you feel like you, even if you don't feel the Savior, kind of change your mind, change your perspective, have the Atonement work and just that part of your life and be like, okay, like I am in doing not probably not the best things, like I'm not sacrificing, I'm not putting my effort in, and then that's when you can let the Lord in. Don't shut the Lord out, don't put walls up, even if you're not intentionally doing it, like realize what you're doing day to day and just let the Lord in because he is there waiting, you know.

McKayla: 41:20

So I love that you shared your poem because that goes hand in hand with, like, the Atonement and with what you guys like your guys' love for each other. Oh my gosh, I can tell like that. It's like love is hard too, like it's love and marriage, like I get it, like I'm newly wedded but like I like it's a work. But if you let the Lord in, it's like that triangle, the marriage triangle, If you guys do your best together but also separately towards God, then he will bring you guys closer together and you guys are just the best example of that, especially through what you guys have gone through. So thank you so much for sharing your experiences and letting this discussion kind of happen, because it's much needed and I know people need it.

Matt: 42:12

Yeah, yeah, and I think one of the things that I made to add on to that something that was hard in the moment but is really apparent to me in hindsight it's kind of along the lines of what you were just saying, which is that sometimes in the journey, when you're in the messy middle, as some people call it, you don't feel close to the Savior, or, like in marriage too, like you don't feel close to each other sometimes. And I think one of the best things for me was realizing that sometimes I won't feel the Spirit, sometimes I won't feel like inspired, I won't have that motivation. But looking back, I think there's like two things that I really learned from that. One was that just like continuing to take action, even when I didn't feel like that was like amazing for me, so like reading my scriptures, continuing to attend whole set meetings for me, just like doing, going through the motions a little bit. And there's like the quote that like the thinking like sorry, now joking, taking your way into it's hard to.

Matt: 43:17

I love this quote, it's like the best quote, but it's like it's easier to, or like you, basically the best way to you can't think your way, you can't think your way into a new way of acting.

Matt: 43:28

You have to like act your way into a new way of thinking, and so, for me, like that is like how we get closer to the Savior, and then, along with that, that journey for me of like overcoming pornography and like, a lot of the times, being distant from the Savior, even when I was trying to do everything back now, if he had just taken it away and made it easy, like being close to me or whatever, it wouldn't have forced me to just continue working to get to the place where I am now, where I feel the Savior so frequently and like I have such a close relationship with him.

Matt: 43:54

But it's because of the struggle that I went through. And so, anyways, I think that it's important to remember why, why, like when we're doing it, to sometimes just do it and continue doing it, and it's a way of showing faith that you're like you're not here right now, but I know that you will be, or like I'm not able to feel you, but I know that you will be, and I think that a lot of people are probably in a similar situation to that.

Dalyon: 44:15

Definitely Just keep moving forward, keep on swimming, just keep swimming, just keep swimming, yep. Yeah.

Dalyon: 44:25

I, you know, I fully agree. It just takes action, faith. Faith is an action word, you know. Like without action it's hope, and it's easy to hope for things right, but it it's much harder to have faith in something because you're acting not knowing if it will happen. And I think that's exactly. You know, what the Lord uses is faith, that action without knowing. I mean that's how. That's how Nephi found the brass plates right. He went through Jerusalem not knowing beforehand where, where he should go. He was taking one step at a time and he had the trust. That's another huge part about any, any healing or growth is trusting in the Lord.

Dalyon: 45:22

He had that trust with them and I think that that's exactly what I've had in my, in my experience. That's what's made. The difference is, I'm acting with faith and with trust. Even if I don't feel close to the Lord, I know he's there, I trust that he's there. But this, you know, this was supposed to be your guys' story but it kind of turned into a therapy session opening. Yeah, I really genuinely appreciate it. This is on my on my way here tonight. Actually, I was. I said a little prayer to God. I was like God, just point me where I need to go, like, like, let this, like, because in our episodes that we've had in the past, they've like they've always healed somebody like McKay. Look and agree, like we've had several instances where it Tresden was on and he's like holy smokes, like this is what I needed today, and it's like awesome, that's what the podcast is about. But today, today, this is what I needed. So thank you so much.

Katie: 46:34

Well, thank you guys so much. It's such an uplifting conversation and again I just like I just love how real both of you have been and I just I think that living the gospel and just trying to do our best in life, trying to come closer to the Savior, however that looks, it's really hard and I'm just, I'm so grateful that you both would share your experiences with us, because I I for one have been strengthened by both of your experiences. So, thanks so much, thank you Well.

Dalyon: 47:05

With that being said, I think now is a good time to end it, because we're about like almost an hour, yeah, so thank you so much, you guys, for coming on. It's been a real, real treat to have you guys, to fill the spirit that you bring. And, yeah, for those of our, for our listeners, I'm going to actually let you give yourself a shout out so we don't put you.

Matt: 47:36

I love that. Thank you, guys for for everything and thank you for having the courage to share about this topic, about pornography, use and vitriol, trauma and stuff. Yeah, you can find more about us at on Instagram, at upward, inward, outward. We talk about all these things on there and we'd love to see anyone and talk to anyone. People can reach out to this, they can DM us and we would.

Katie: 47:58

I was also going to say we have support groups, just free support groups that we put on every month. I do. I run a support group for women, Matt runs a support group for men. So for me, women struggling with vitriol trauma supporting their spouse, and men struggling with corn use and we'd love to have anyone there that wants to those support groups are such a great way to build community, to let go of shame and just to kind of start the healing process. So if anyone's interested, we'd love to have them.

Matt: 48:27

Just DM us for more information. And again, instagram is upward, inward, outward.

Dalyon: 48:33

So we'll put it in the title. Yeah, but yeah, thank you guys.

Katie: 48:39

So much it's been so much guys.

Dalyon: 48:43

And again for our listeners, you can find our Instagram at remember dot podcast. Yeah, we'd love to hear anybody's stories who is willing to share and remember him.