Greg Brown: 0:04

Welcome to our Blue Margin Expert Insights series. We're glad you could join us here today. This series is for mid-market companies and private equity firms that are looking to more effectively use data and dashboards to accelerate growth and profitability. My name is Greg Brown, a BI consultant here with Blue Margin. Today on the Expert Insights series, we have the privilege of introducing practitioner and researcher Dr. Jack Nestell, with three decades of business and IT leadership across multiple industries. Jack has served as a global CIO board member and advisor, Executive Director of IT, Vice President of IT, and IT Security Officer. As the Managing Partner of Nestell and Associates, Jack is an ERP practitioner, researcher, speaker, and academic. He received his doctorate with a dissertation in ERP organizational change from USC and regularly contributes to ERP research books and articles. He also hosts the popular ERP Organizational Change Journal podcast, which we'll link here in the show notes. Nestell and Associates, as an IT and change management firm, partners with private equity firms to drive ERP optimization and digital transformation projects. Their mission is to offer experience-based solutions and highly qualified professionals to ensure project success. Welcome, Jack. It's an honor to have you here on the show with us today. What prompted you to found Nestell and Associates?

Jack Nestell: 1:18

I have a deep and genuine interest in effectively and efficiently making business information work for businesses. Gradually, over the course of my career and while cutting my teeth in information technology, I started to realize more and more that successful IT implementation was much more about business processes and culture than just pure information technology. This, in combination with the fact that there's a demand for high-quality services in this space, is part of the motivation. However, in addition to that, as you folks are aware, ERP organizational change can be a time of high stress and business disruption. But my question has always been, why does it have to be this way? Can we, as practitioners, positively impact and improve ERP organizational change? These were the primary questions that motivated me early in my career and ultimately led to Nestell and Associates. Successful assimilation matters because evidence demonstrates, through objective research, case studies, and articles, that ERP failures and challenges are extremely costly to organizations in the US. I got into the research years ago, initially in a more informal way. However, ERP research continues to explore the problem through different lenses, fields of study, models, and perspectives. For Nestell and Associates, it's not just about the practice but also about contributing to the ERP organizational change field and ensuring ERP organizational change success. This ultimately comes through learning, sharing, and being honest about the realities of the practice.

Greg Brown: 2:56

It's interesting because you often hear anecdotally that ERP implementations have to be difficult. They are dense, by necessity, super expensive, and they drag out. It makes complete sense to question whether it needs to be that way. I believe we can improve this process, given how essential these systems are for businesses to move forward. Now, Jack, I know you have a real focus on private equity-backed companies at the firm and have a lot of experience working with these companies at different periods in the hold. I would imagine there have been some significant surprises along the way as you've worked with private equity-backed companies on ERP implementations and throughout that process.

Jack Nestell: 3:31

Yeah, well, first, I would say that maybe it's not so much a surprise as it is a common trend or a common denominator. The consistency in private equity pain points stands out. One of these pain points is the significant need for timely, accurate, and reliable business information improvements, which is inherent to the value generated by private equity. These improvements don't always require a complete IT revamp or large-scale ERP organizational change. Business intelligence tools and dashboards can also address these needs and be layered on top of existing ERP systems. Ultimately, the value-added by private equity to our clients can be distilled down to reliable, timely, and accurate business information. One potential surprise, Greg, and maybe this is one surprise in general, is the variation in the focus placed on the value of culture during large-scale IT and ERP organizational change efforts. Some private equity firms place significant value on culture, going beyond treating it as a mere buzzword. They take tangible actions to understand, assess, and discuss culture in meaningful and productive ways. However, there are also firms that may not prioritize culture to the same extent. This variation in approach was a bit surprising to me early on.

Greg Brown: 5:09

Some people, you know, just talk the talk, while others actually walk the walk by establishing cultural standards and making tactical decisions and changes, even when they see that those standards are not being upheld. I can only imagine how beneficial it is to have the right focus on culture and the right behaviors within the firm. This translates into helping the ERP migration or implementation process as well. Switching gears a little bit, Jack, obviously, the work and implementations involved in helping companies with ERP selection are highly varied. However, what kind of processes do you use when working on ERP migration and implementation projects to assist companies in making the right decisions? And could you also explain the actual implementation process itself?

Jack Nestell: 5:56

Yeah, important question. And I do agree, I think it's maybe a bit of a loaded question because it's very contextual, and it varies, but a very, very important question. But I will say, Greg, that from a project management perspective, I believe in the brass tacks, you know, I think the success is in the details. And I think this is probably a topic that's worth its own podcast to discuss everything from project initiation, planning, execution, monitoring, and controlling project closing. All that deserves careful attention to detail for as a non-starter. But then I also think that it's not only based on knowledge, you know, understanding what those are and being good at project management, but it's also a bit of an art, right? And, but I think this idea of effective risk management, effective resource time and cost allocation, effective team communication, quality control, etc. It all starts with very good tactical project management. But, but I would say, Greg, that tactically the general process varies, whether it's an optimization, a migration, or an implementation, you know, so we use various methods, best practices, principles, kind of a mix of all the above, but you know, so for example, workstream structures, Value Stream Mapping, Gantt charts, critical path method, CPM, waterfall, agile, Kanban, Scrum, we use all that. And again, that would be another fun conversation. But I would say, even from a higher level, that there's kind of six steps or keys that with our general process, they're baked in because they're crucial for ERP migrations and implementation projects. So, you know, I would say the first one is really understand the business in terms of mission visions and values. And don't just let that be lip service, right? I mean, really understand the business from that perspective. You know, at the end of the day, ERP service and delivery needs to be closely aligned with the business objectives. So that's number one. And again, all of these, the six things I'll share with you here are just kind of baked in our overall methodology, the way we approach our business. And then the other one, I would say, is just general plan creation. And by that, I mean, when you create your plan, there's all these tactical pieces, you know, how to properly do this and how to properly do that, and the timing. But I think it all starts with being realistic, being authentic, and being honest. And don't be a yes-man, you know, to get your foot in the door, a new client, I think that's a horrible disservice. The third thing would be determined, how do we define success of the organization. And that's always a focus on us, whether it's an IT project, you know, digital transformation, or ERP organizational change, but don't let success become subjective. And I think you want to try to avoid that because that's a major danger. And that doesn't do any favors for your client. Fourth, I would say, Greg, is we do what we call a business operations analysis, which almost always includes some form of Value Stream Mapping, right? So it's just a day in the life of to determine, you know, who are we today, and where do we want to go. And it especially with implementation or migration, that's a critical conversation that needs to be a very much a part of your general process. And again, there's, I feel that there are right ways and wrong ways to go about that process. And then two more I just want to share are organizational culture and assessment. And that's a significant pillar of our practice. And I'd be happy to talk more about that. And then lastly, learning and development, or some organizations call it Training, we call it learning and development, which again, is another one-hour podcast. But that's significant for us. And I myself and our team, and based on research, we really feel that a lot of ERP plans fail to switch to substantially in that area. And Greg, if I may just give you a quick example of what I mean by that. So when I say effective learning and development, that would be, for instance, even conceptual training. So we've had several clients and large medium small organizations, and where this conversation is very productive. And what I mean by that is, you know, when you look at an ERP system and what it is designed to do conceptually and how the value and benefits of an organization, right? So if you think of your business and the things that come in, you know, your raw materials or whatever it may be, they come in, you will unload them from your dock, and you ship the product on the other end and everything in between, really, at the end of the day, and just I'm simplifying a little bit. But if you think about the ERP transactions in terms of transactions being in dollars, so they either represent one, the movement of $1, or the transformation of $1, right? And again, it's a little bit general, but it's very helpful to think about think of it that way. And then what happens is those transactions eventually, because they're dollars, they kind of percolate up to your finance, and in one way, shape, or form, they're represented in your P&L on your balance sheet. And it's used to make real business decisions based on that. And so the way to make that happen, and the way to be successful is you have your business world, right, the way in which you do business, your business model, from a physical perspective, you have your logical system here, which is your ERP system. And the more that you can align those in terms of timely, accurate, and disciplined transactions from one to the other, that's a very good thing. So that was just an example of when it comes to learning and development. Those are certain things, those are things that if you assume that everybody knows, that could be a problem, and but it usually turns out to be very productive and helpful. Once you start framing up, hey, here's our objective to improve our business, it comes right down to the transactions of the ERP system, right?

Greg Brown: 11:32

That difference makes complete sense with how you explain it, you know, there's just I think That so many firms and, and other implementers look at just Yeah, training, you know, we have to do That training. But framing That differently, I think helps people get What the ERP provides. And the value That it provides, helps them see That in a different light in the correct light, I would say as well. That makes complete sense.

Jack Nestell: 11:54

One more thing, I will say, and I've said this before in our podcast, you know, I think that the ERP organizational change practice has a lot to learn from other practices. And certainly, we have a lot to learn from the learning and development community, the learning and development practitioners, and we really try to incorporate those principles of learning and development into our program. But it's your—I totally agree. I mean, there's a big difference between training and going into a class for an hour and checking a box, versus making sure that the training is effective, and you can apply it to the floor, you can apply your training to the real world. Two very different things.

Greg Brown: 12:29

And that's helping to maximize the value for businesses to implement ERP that make that commitment, that make that investment—you want to realize as much ROI, obviously, from that as you can. So yeah, it makes complete sense. So Jack, when you meet with companies and private equity firms in the LOI and presale phase, what types of conversations and questions do you consider? And what does an engagement with Nestle and Associates look like?

Jack Nestell: 12:53

I think we really emphasize a hyper-focused attention approach, so obviously, it all starts with an NDA. And then we usually have debrief calls to understand the context of the business. And then usually, that's followed by a seminar setup, you know, confidential information memorandum, or presentation, or even website information. And the reason we take that approach is because we do what we can to really understand the business right from the start, so that we can provide a customized approach to our services. And I think that really makes a difference, you know, and we don't have a template that we try to fit across every context and every need. And so we really hyper-focus right out of the gates on the needs of the business and understanding the business. But I would say, Greg, you know, from a pre-sales phase, for our due diligence, we consider probably three top questions. And one would be, obviously, is there anything that is quite unusual or appears to be a significant risk or a gap as it pertains to the IT or the ERP in terms of the people, processes, and technology? Right, so that includes systems, infrastructure applications as well. The next thing we really focus on from a high level is, would there be any concerns that should be considered immediately post-close? Right? So maybe they're not a, you know, they're not an initial investment concern, but it's high enough caution or priority that, like, right immediately once you know, the deal closes, you really need to consider this. And then lastly, we really try to figure out what is the business information and business intelligence status and temperature. And the reason this is important is because sometimes I think that this is underappreciated, and then organizations and their PD partners, they get into major ERP and IT improvement efforts post-acquisition that weren't planned for. So now you have organizational capital, time, money, and effort so that you have to spend that you really didn't plan because you didn't recognize it from the onset. So I think just from a high level, those are the three primary questions we try to answer. So on the LOI and pre-sale side, you know, the engagements vary quite a bit, but I would say that regardless, we do take quite an objective, have, I would say academic and vendor-neutral approach to our due diligence work. And then the other thing we do as well is we support, especially in the context of carve-outs, we support transition services agreement or PSAs. And that would be, for example, if you have a large global conglomerate, and they're selling off a division, what's that transition look like? What's the transition plan? What's the transition agreement? So we support that as well.

Greg Brown: 15:23

Right? Absolutely. What about in the post acquisition stage? What does That look like? What changes, if

Jack Nestell: 15:30

Our work ranges from it and ERP consulting, anything? deployment optimization, and That includes everything from you know, complete build of the IT team in the case of a carve out, so That would be building the people, the processes the technology, to a full blown ERP, organizational change effort, and everything in between. So you know, for a full blown ERP, organizational change for us That would include ERP, organizational culture, assessment, readiness, business, process analysis, vendor selection, implementation and post go live support. But we do, you know, we do staff augmentation as well, or, you know, if they've had their, their ERP for a while, and It's kind of in their steady state, and they're doing fine, but they want to take it to the next level. And maybe they want to improve their business intelligence or dashboards, you know, What will help with That? So, but It's same process, but It's pretty much any and all things as it relates to it in ERP support.

Greg Brown: 16:26

Yeah. Do you see any trends in terms of your engagements falling more earlier in the presale fees are later in the post acquisition phase? Is there a certain percentage breakdown there?

Jack Nestell: 16:36

You know, I would say in terms of statements of work, right now, it's roughly 50/50. And I think the reason for that is that once we support the private equity on the pre-sale side and we've built a trusted and evaluated partnership, there are always almost opportunities post-close for portfolios. And the reason for that is private equity firms. They're really focused on creating vibrant, healthy, sustaining organizations. And of course, one of the tools for that is IT and business information. Obviously, that's a crucial piece of that success. So it's probably pretty close to 50/50.

Greg Brown: 17:11

So when private equity firms have an established platform company, they're in diligence for add-ons, what type of steps should platform company executives and private equity operating partners be taking to prepare employees for upcoming M&A? And, you know, according to modern organizational change research or best practices, are there certain educational, cultural, or other steps and areas where these leaders can pave the way for a smoother integration?

Jack Nestell: 17:37

This is a great question. I really liked this question because, again, I think it's crucial. And one of the things that I see the most successful PE firms do is they really hyper-focus on communication, sharing goals, holding town halls, for instance, setting shared organizational KPIs right out the gate, right? So they really focus on stakeholder feedback and communication. And I would say during my personal research, formal and informal, there's little doubt that organizations that focus on leadership match, right? So the right leadership for the right organization for the right culture, as well as organizational culture from the onset, is a significant key to the investment and the business success. But I would say, Greg, that one of the most influential factors is to understand your organizational temperature right out of the gate. And so, for example, there's a model out there for measuring organizational culture called the Dennison model, and Dr. Daniel Dennison created it. He's a friend and mentor and colleague, but it's based on decades of research on how organizational culture relates to performance. So Dr. Dennison and his team, they found links between organizational culture scores and the performance KPIs. I would say for an organization, such as profitability, ROP, return on equity, ROA, ROI, growth, both in terms of market share and sales, growth, quality, innovation, customer and employee satisfaction, and so forth. And in fact, we are able to correlate cultural traits, such as those, with these performance metrics. And so I think, you know, just to give you some examples, so when I say organizational attributes, I'm talking about strategic direction and intent, goals and objectives, vision, change, creating change, right, change resistance, organizational learning that we talked about, empowerment, team orientation, core values, agreement, coordination, and integration. Those are all incredibly valuable attributes of a culture that have a direct impact on organizational performance at the end of the day. So then the question would be, Greg, if you can measure that and if you understood that, why would you not want to know that information? So you can improve it if, in fact, it does create operational improvements, right? So I would say that to answer your question, in order to prepare employees for upcoming M&A, and obviously from our perspective, this would be something that's actually done post-close, right? Because when a private equity firm is going to go through the acquisition, they're going to purchase an entity, they can't really do this until after they own the business. But I would say that organizational culture assessments and productive conversations are, in my view, the primary items that leaders can take to pave the way for some of their integration.

Greg Brown: 20:27

Yeah, and it's also almost helping to understand where are the potential risks here in terms of specific considerations around M&A. What we need to be on the lookout as far as where the organizational culture is right now, where we'd like it to be, but also where it is right now? And what potential roadblocks and challenges that could create coming into M&A? It sounds like, what are some of the ERP organizational change success factors? In other words, when you observe digital transformation projects, what are some of the common markers that indicate a project is likely to succeed versus failing? What's important to monitor throughout that process?

Jack Nestell: 21:03

Now? They're great question, Greg. I love it since I've spent years and years and years studying this. But I love this question. I really do because, in my view, I think it clearly starts with the right technology, right, which is, by the way, a critical success factor. But that technical piece, especially in the context of ERP, needs to match the business model, and then it needs to provide the appropriate feature function. Right. So in terms of ERP, Nestle and Associates, we believe that there's one best fit for every organization, so, but success goes way beyond technology, right. So. So as far as the critical success factors, you know, I will say that usually people in organizations, they don't spend an incredible amount of time investigating causes and solutions if a real-world problem doesn't exist, right? In fact, ERP organizational change can be a significant challenge. I mean, ERP simulation challenges are a significant problem, as we talked about earlier in our conversation, directly related to many complex and dynamic critical success factors, for sure. And in fact, Greg, you know, the literature presents a common theme and suggests that organizations that ERP Organizational Change Research definitely has a common theme and suggests that organizations that become aware of they implement, they put the appropriate emphasis on the vast array of these critical success factors will be better prepared and positioned with the organizational skills that they need to increase the likelihood of success. Right. So I guess you could say I'm a little bit of an evangelist when it comes to critical success factors. And I'll explain more, but I really like I really appreciate that question. But I guess you could say that the demand for improvement is driven by the supply. So there's research for a reason. It's a real problem. And a lot of people are spending a lot of time, money, and effort talking through this so we can improve the practice. So but I would say that often, many of these critical success factors are truly overlooked within ERP implementations. And so the folks that tell you that they have a 100% success rate or that there are projects that go without a hitch, I would be cautious of that. And then they may not quite understand the root causes of some of the issues. And then, you know, I think that every project will have significant challenges. There's no doubt about it. And I think that any firm that tries to prevent any and all challenges and they expect perfection, like they have a magic wand or crystal ball. I think that's a huge disservice. But I think what really the most important thing is, is how you manage and react to those challenges when they do arise. I think that's an absolute key to success. There's been a lot of great formal research from universities and organizations really studying these many areas of ERP success, focusing on many aspects, aspects of what we call the triad and other people processes and technology, executive leadership style, leadership member exchange theory, organizational diversity, managing emotion, political dynamics, and vested interests, project management methodology, which might be a more obvious one for most people, stakeholder relationships, I think already said that leadership support tech stack and architecture, organizational management skills, data testing, migration and user training, which we top down in many, many more. And there have actually been studies on what causes project fallacy in ERP organizational change, right? So why are we over time, money, and effort? It's just really a fascinating topic. And there's a lot of good work out there. And I really think that you can't underestimate any of these, right? I think you need to understand what these are so that you're at least aware of them so that you can be proactive. And so I think the moral of the story here with this question is, it's important to know that every company experiences these influences, right? All the ones I just read you and many more. And even though the organizations are different, but I think the key is that each and every one of these influences is there. It's in the genetics. It's in the DNA of every organization. It's in the DNA of every ERP organizational change project. But they vary in amplitude. So there's genetic disposition, let's say, for an organization, they all have this strand of DNA with all these influences, but they vary in amplitude as to what their real influence is. So. But all that being said, Greg, I would say that at the top of my list, understanding the leadership style, the organizational culture to three, being honest and realistic about what you're getting yourself into, that helps prevent project fallacy to begin with. Yeah, because if you set the wrong expectations out of the gate, you're in trouble already. That's a disservice. And then the brass tacks of discipline, project management, and again, effective learning and development. So that was a mouthful, but it's a very important question. And I do

Greg Brown: 25:53

I think understanding the difference in appreciate that. amplitudes, the variants and amplitudes, where each particular company has strengths and has weaknesses, and how your team is interpreting and understanding that contributes and ties back to something you mentioned earlier. It's a process, it's almost as much of an art to, in terms of diagnosing and understanding where organizations are better positioned in certain areas and others for this sort of change. And then making sure that you're adapting your process and working with them collaboratively on that, which needless to say, that's where the experience really comes into play. And having seen this before, and having seen potentially even other firms going down the wrong path or advertising that they have the magic wand when they shouldn't, and avoiding those things. And having that sort of experience in that area was just truly invaluable. So just touching on the subject of organizational readiness, in general here, what type of assessments can organizations utilize to explore their readiness for digital transformation overall?

Jack Nestell: 26:52

Sure. And so, you know, yeah, obviously, as I mentioned, for us, that's step number one because it is a critical, critical part of the process. And as previously mentioned, I would say you need to understand the culture, right? And then you need to understand the organization's kind of conceptual understanding of ERP. And you need to understand the stakeholders' perception of ERP organizational change. And so we have a variety of surveys and workshops to discuss these points. So, for example, in some of this, honestly, is getting a little bit into our secret sauce in our space. But, but I'll tell you, and I think this is important, you know, there are tools that we utilize, such as the Dennison survey, as I mentioned, in which to assess these items such as the strategic vision, the intent, goals and objectives, your vision, organizational learning, team orientation agreement, and so forth, which I've mentioned previously. And then we need to take that which is abstract and often subjective attributes and make those concrete for productive conversation, right? And so that's number one in terms of readiness. The second thing I would say is, we use various quantitative, what I would call quantitative surveys, to help us get a sense of the collective leadership style, you know, because as I mentioned before, I think leadership style is really important. And again, I think that's probably another one of our podcasts, easy. And then we deploy several surveys that we've had developed over the years to help us better understand stakeholder perceptions, specifically in terms of the current kind of state and the stakeholder understanding of the ERP process and expectations. And then I would say, we also have a bit of a qualitative workshop to discuss the definition of success and KPIs that are used and needed to measure that success. And I think that this is actually that conversation with organizations, basically, what is success? How do you define it? What does that look like, is actually one of my favorite questions at the onset of an org project and ERP organizational change project because they range and they respond to it may surprise you, I mean, the range is just all over the place. And so clearly, the organization isn't aligned out of the gates. And so. So the idea is to have a unified organizational agreement as to the definition and to make that definition as objective as possible and as measurable as possible. And what that does down the road, it just creates a lot of noise and around are we successful or not. And the other thing I just want to add really quick is some research shows that the definition of success and the perception of success varies throughout the ERP organizational change cycle. And that's all natural, I think, because people we're emotional creatures, and they go through ups and downs. But the problem is, that can become counterproductive. And so by going through this process and really taking the time on the front end to understand what that is, what the mission really isn't defined, it goes a long way to create alignment and visibility within your organization.

Greg Brown: 29:54

How do you advise private equity firms and companies in terms of when they're ready to make that investment? When they're ready to, for example, for a lower minimum middle market company to make the investment, implementing an ERP.

Jack Nestell: 30:07

We get this all the time. And I think to me, the answer is simple. And that is, every organization is different. So you need to build an objective business case, right? And so how do you do that? Well, it's an objective, unbiased, honest review of your business, which is accomplished through the steps that we talked about previously. And in really understanding the business flow and business processes. That's where it starts. And so we assess the organization as to what the next steps should be. I think that you really need to understand what is causing the gaps to begin with, right? Because it could be people, it could be process, it could be technology. And what you'll find when you go into an organization, there are all sorts of perceptions and opinions and ideas about what that may be. But until you take the time to go through this formal exercise and a bit of a discipline exercise, that's what it takes to build this objective business case. So I think the short answer is, you offer that advice and that recommendation based on evidence, based on what you see, and based on the true and the perceived ideas of what's going on within the business. And then you present an objective business case. And sometimes it's hard to argue against an objective business case, right? So that's our approach.

Greg Brown: 31:20

Have there been instances where Nestle and Associates has advised against an ERP implementation or migration because you could not make the business case and it just didn't seem like it was going to return value, even if a client felt like it is, and we need this?

Jack Nestell: 31:35

Yeah, absolutely. You know, all new ERPs are highly disruptive, as you know, right? And if the root of the issue is, in fact, as I talked about earlier, maybe it's poor conceptual understanding of an ERP and/or poor transactional discipline, for example, right? Then there's no sense in taking a sledgehammer to crap and not. And so we, we were like, you know, you can you build that case, and you can say, No, that's not your problem. Your system was not a functional feature fit of your ERP, you got much other you got other things going on. So, but yeah, again, I think this is where unbiased vendor-neutral approaches significant value add for our portfolios.

Greg Brown: 32:14

So are there times, and I'm purely kind of just guessing on this point, Jack, but you can let me know. I mean, are there times where companies or private equity firms say,"Well, we need an ERP migration, but they really need optimization?" Does that come up sometimes? And you kind of diagnose that in your initial stages of the process?

Jack Nestell: 32:31

Optimization instead of implementation or migration?

Greg Brown: 32:34

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and that's what you discover for the client? Yeah, when they think it might be the other. Yeah, they think it might be migration, but you know, this is what you actually find. Yeah.

Jack Nestell: 32:43

No, that's exactly right. You know, why throw the baby out with the bathwater? And sometimes it's a big thing, right? I mean, maybe you got the right system, and you're doing pretty good overall with your transactional discipline, and everybody understands how the system is supposed to work. But it's just that there are some gaps, maybe from a business intelligence perspective. So sometimes, then, you know, that's where you just layer on that business intelligence layer on top of everything, and you can help take their business to a whole new level that way, right? But yeah, local optimization a lot of times is the right answer.

Greg Brown: 33:17

With your research and background, I'd be curious to learn if there's any interesting research on digital transformation. And by that, I mean the adoption of digital technologies and the research that has come out over the past few years. What are you seeing from a research perspective that might be of interest to our audience of private equity professionals and portfolio company executives?

Jack Nestell: 33:37

Yeah, I would say, yeah, definitely. Certainly, there's a lot of good stuff coming from the ERP research, as I mentioned earlier. But I'm certainly quite interested in better understanding the future of ERP organizational change in the context of that triad, right? The people, process, technology. But I think that the impact of emerging technologies on ERP and on that triad, the ERP organizational triad, is a very fun and very interesting topic, for sure. And I think one thing is certain, and that is, ERP organizational change, as we've been discussing, is a very dynamic and complex interplay of people, organizational culture, process, and technology. And as a result, there's been a great deal of discussion, research articles, opinion, research-based journals, case studies, and so forth regarding this triad. And I think there's also plenty of views and perspectives and opinions and experiences and questions around each of those factors in that triad. But one of the things that we know, right, is that the ERP organizational change field is advancing due to contributions, for example, enhancements in industry best practices over the years, implementation of new ideas around business process management, implementing new approaches to project management, the PIMBOK and IT project management is just improving as well, and improving understanding of values as we've been discussing organizational culture, organizational learning, and organizational leadership. And then of course, advanced and emerging technologies, right? So, you hear this idea of industry 4.0, smart factory 4.0, Software as a Service 4.0. And then on top of that, you have augmented reality, Bitcoin, big data, blockchain, cryptocurrency, Internet of Things, quantum computing, RFID, robotic process automation, right? And I do think that all of those are just fascinating because, you know, marrying those pieces, those emerging technologies, with ERP within the business environment has had and will continue to have a pretty profound effect on the triad, the relationship between the people, processes, and technology. So, you know, for me, Greg, I would say, to name the obvious, is AI, you know, artificial intelligence. And this is something that we discuss and consider all the time, emerging technologies, and especially AI. But because we're focused on the triad, and again, I think that this whole idea of the triad is really a central theme or tenet of our practice, the relationship in regards to ERP organizational change and these three items: people, processes, and technology. I do think that AI could potentially have a profound effect on this triad. And we're actually sorting that out. I actually think about that every day, what's ERP gonna look like tomorrow, in two months, in a year, and three years, and 10 years from now. And it's just a fascinating idea. So, because it's going to really change that relationship between the people, the culture, the leadership, the processes, and the technology.

Greg Brown: 36:51

I mean, it touches all three, right? Doesn't it? And it affects all three, and then that affects the relationship of all three of those things together. I mean, there are layers there and layers on back, I think, but that's absolutely going to be a very interesting space to look at going forward here. So, Jack, what's next on the horizon for you and the firm? And, you know, for those looking to connect with you and discuss these sorts of things a little bit more, what's the best avenue?

Jack Nestell: 37:15

Yeah, I appreciate it. You know, I would say as far as what's next, I mean, we're very grateful for our continued success, and we're just gonna keep our nose to the grindstone. You know, we're just gonna focus on the triad, and we're just going to continue to try to contribute to the field and to our practice, so that's what we're going to continue to do. And, you know, we are working on taking our podcasts and our content to another level. We're just really looking forward to sharing more and more and doing that in different formats. So that's pretty exciting for us to come later this year. But yeah, if folks want to reach out and get a hold of us, you can go to nestle.associates.com, one word, NestellandAssociates.com. And you can go to Nestell & Associates on LinkedIn. But those are probably the two best ways to reach out. We'd be happy to chat anytime on this topic.

Greg Brown: 38:05

That's awesome. Thanks, Jack. And we'll be sure to link all that in our show notes as well. Jack, thank you again for the time, and I look forward to staying in touch and continuing this conversation.

Jack Nestell: 38:13

You bet. Thank you, Greg. This was so much fun, and I appreciate your time. Thanks for having me.