The Power of Critical Incident Debriefing in Vet Med | Episode 73 | Reviving Vet Med

Veterinary teams are no strangers to trauma—emergency cases, euthanasia, client distress, and internal conflict can all leave an emotional mark. Yet, so often, we rush past these moments without stopping to process them. What if we didn’t have to carry that weight alone?

In this essential episode, we speak with Julie Morse Elliott, MPCC Provisional (Master Practitioner in Clinical Counselling Provisional), RVT, VTS(ECC), and trained CIGD facilitator, about Critical Incident Group Debriefing—a powerful, structured approach to helping veterinary teams process distressing events in a safe, supportive environment.

Julie explains how debriefing sessions can reduce emotional overwhelm, foster team cohesion, and protect against long-term impacts like burnout, compassion fatigue, and PTSD. We walk through what a typical session looks like, common signs a team might need one, and how leaders can begin introducing debriefing into their workplace culture.

This conversation is both practical and deeply affirming. If you’ve ever left work feeling rattled, numb, or isolated after a traumatic case—or you’re a leader wondering how to better support your team—this episode is a must-listen. 

Watch the Video Version of this Episode
https://youtu.be/PIdLiB70Fio

Resources
Learn more about Critical Incident Group Debriefings by Reviving Veterinary Medicine: https://revivingvetmed.com/critical-incident-group-debriefing-for-veterinary-teams/ 

Learn more about Julie and the other coaches at Reviving Veterinary Medicine: https://revivingvetmed.com/meet-our-coaches 

Book a 20-minute introductory coaching call with Julie: https://scheduler.zoom.us/coaching-rvm-juliemorse-elliott/20-minute-discovery-call- 

Follow Julie Morse Elliott on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/julie-morse-elliott-rvt-vts-ecc-mpcc-provisional-1ba373a7/ and Facebook / Instagram @ConsciousEvolutionCounselling

Visit Julie Morse Elliott’s website: https://consciousevolutioncounselling.com/ 

Critical Incident Debriefing: What You Need to Know (PDF): https://revivingvetmed.kartra.com/page/critical-incident-debriefing 

Thank You to Our Sponsor
Reviving Veterinary Medicine: www.revivingvetmed.com

Order Dr. Marie Holowaychuk’s book A Compassionate Calling: What It Really Means To Be a Veterinarian: https://www.dpbolvw.net/click-101487131-14076226?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FA-Compassionate-Calling-What-It-Really-Means-to-Be-a-Veterinarian%2FHolowaychuk%2Fp%2Fbook%2F9781032389035 

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Online Programs
To learn more about Reviving Veterinary Medicine’s offerings including coaching, lunch & learns, critical incident group debriefing, and online programs, please visit our website: https://revivingvetmed.com/

Transcript

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk: This episode is brought to you by Reviving Veterinary Medicine, your go to resource for evidence based tools and support that put mental health and well being at the center of veterinary practice. Whether you're a veterinarian, technician, assistant or manager, our free resources like blogs, downloadable handouts and podcast episodes are designed to help you thrive, not just survive in your role. And if you're looking for more personalized support, we also offer services like one-on-one coaching by certified Veterinary professionals, Lunch and Learns led by experienced facilitators and Critical Incident group debriefings guided by trained experts because your well being matters and sustainable veterinary careers. Start with support that's practical, professional and deeply personal visit RevivingVetMed.com to learn more and explore what's possible when we put people. first in vet medicine.

Dr. Marie: Welcome to another episode of Reviving Vet Med. Today we're talking about something that doesn't get nearly enough attention in vet medicine. How we process the emotional weight of the work we do, especially after critical incidents. Joining me is Reviving Vet Med coach Julie Morse Elliott, a registered professional counselor candidate with decades of experience as a registered vet tech with a VTS in emergency and critical care. Julie brings a powerful combination of lived experience in vet medicine and mental health training to her work, supporting individuals and teams through stress, burnout and emotional overwhelm. In this episode, we explore the concept of Critical Incident Group Debriefing or CIGD. Julie walks us through what it is, why it matters, and how it can help veterinary teams recover after high stress or traumatic events.

Dr. Marie:  We also talk about how debriefing supports team cohesion, reduces the risk of long term emotional harm, and fosters a culture where mental health is taken seriously. If you've ever walked away from a case or situation thinking I don't know what to do with everything I'm feeling right now, this conversation is for you. So let's go ahead and get into the episode. This is the Reviving Vet Med podcast and I'm your host, Dr. Marie Holowaychuk and my mission is to improve the mental health and well being of veterinary professionals around the world.

Dr. Marie: All right, it is so great to see you Julie. Once again, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.

Julie Morse Elliott: Thanks Marie. Really great to see you as well and thanks for having me here. Of course.

Dr. Marie: So we're going to get right into it. To start, I want to ask if you can explain what Critical Incident debriefing is and why it's especially relevant in vet medicine.

Julie: Yes. So Critical Incident Debriefing it's a structured process that's been designed to help teams and individuals processing cope with emotional and psychological impact of a traumatic or highly stressful event that has happened within the workplace. It will happen generally quite soon after the incident itself has occurred. And it involves a facilitated discussion that is led by a mental health professional or an individual who has been properly trained to facilitate these types of events. The overall goal is to provide a safe space to share experiences, express emotions and to begin healing from what has happened during that time. It's relevant to veterinary medicine because veterinary professionals often deal with high stress situations which can include medical emergencies with traumatic components to them.

Julie: So within the ER we can see a lot of traumatic accidents that have happened, the animals which then in turn involves dealing with the owners of those animals that have then themselves suffered that trauma from what happened to their companion animal. It can involve having those difficult discussions with clients and going through those decisions that can ultimately impact their lives as well as their parents lives. So those emotional tolls of those decisions can be quite significant. And veterinary teams also work really closely together and then there can be interpersonal conflicts that arise leading to stress and tension. Those critical incident group debriefings can serve as an important resource for promoting mental well being, resilience and post traumatic growth amongst the care professionals that are involved.

Dr. Marie:  Yeah, you and I both come from the emergency space and I feel like we have both experienced our share of traumatic events in practice and you don't have to work in emergency by any means to experience these. I think back to different scenarios where we just didn't talk about what happened after. And then I found myself just going over and over it.

Dr. Marie: I remember back to my residency, there was a client that came in who was recently had become a paraplegic after a motorcycle accident and he had a dog who basically had really gotten him through it, literally. And the dog had ingested some of his antispasmodic medication. A drug at the time is called Baclofen. It's still available and we know now that Baclofen is lipid soluble, so we can use lipids to reverse it. But at the time this was like before intravenous lipid therapy and this dog needed to be ventilated and this owner was distraught and telling us if his dog didn't make it that he wasn't going to make it. And I remember it being so intense in the ER and in the ICU and not knowing how to cope with that.

Dr. Marie: And then in the aftermath like being so worried that this dog wasn't going to make it and the ramifications that was going to have for the owner. And we didn't talk about it. And I think about situations like that. Situations like even a client having a health episode in the practice and having to call an ambulance or a team member. There's so many different scenarios. It could be an angry client that really loses their temper and maybe even becomes physically combative in the practice. There's so many situations where, like you said, we can experience that psychological harm and if we don't properly cope with it, then there can be consequences for that. How does critical incident group debriefing help teams to process these experiences so that we can reduce that risk of post traumatic stress disorder or burnout?

Julie: Yeah, I just want to acknowledge what you were just describing and talking about and listening to you say that literally goosebumps from the top of my head to the tip of my toes. And could actually feel the emotion coming up. Just thinking about the numerous number of incidents like over the years that I've been in emergency and critical care medicine and just the stories and the one that you just described, there's so many of them and yeah. That nobody ever talked about it at all. So the critical incident group debriefings can be so helpful with things like that because it can provide that structured environment where team members can then openly discuss their emotions. Right. Because let's be real, this involves emotion and raw emotion. And to share their feelings, like whether it's sadness, maybe it's frustration. Right.

Julie: Because they weren't able to do something that they really wanted to be able to do, but their hands were tied maybe because of financial reasons or other things that can come into play. And it can be cathartic to be able to just release all of that and to help everybody involved in that incident feel less isolated so that they understand it's not just them that's feeling, that it can be everyone else around them as well. And we, like often, as veterinary professionals, may feel like our reactions to that traumatic or stressful event or abnormal or maybe they're excessive. So during that critical incident group debriefing, hearing their colleagues express similar feelings can then normalize those reactions and reassures them that they're not alone in their struggles. So also, that piece around participating in it together can also strengthen the relationships of the team members.

Julie: And then that shared experience of discussing that difficult situation fosters empathy and understanding amongst all of them as well. And it can enhance their overall teamwork and then provide future support Networks for those individuals when they're facing emotional challenges at different times.

Dr. Marie: Yeah. So there's so many different pieces to it. Right. There is just the cathartic nature of being able to speak what's on your heart and on your mind and get it out there and not feel like you have to suppress it or stifle it. And then there's the normalizing of it. Right. I'm not alone in feeling this way. It's normal for me to have this sort of reaction given the circumstances that arise and then coming together collectively to get through it and not feel that loneliness and that isolation which often develops in these post traumatic stress times. What do you think are common signs that an individual would benefit from a critical incident debriefing session? What would you look for as a mental health provider?

Julie: Yeah, there's a plethora of things and a long, almost exhaustive list that is there. But again, all of these little things can be very pertinent in being able to pick up on if your colleague is struggling or even yourself within a situation is struggling. So exhibiting really heightened emotions such as sadness, anger or frustration that might seem a little bit out of the norm, like for what's going on or what's happening. You may notice that someone may have a more increased anxiety or they're showing or demonstrating increased anxiety, particularly about returning to a similar incident of what may have just occurred within the hospital, within the practice. You may also see that they're withdrawing from you or withdrawing from other colleagues. And there may be a decline in participation during team discussions and activities. You may find them removing themselves.

Julie: Again, irritability, frustration, short tempered, like, which may not be the usual for that individual where they're very fatigued, seeming quite exhausted, a complete lack of energy. Maybe they're sharing with you that they've had difficulty sleeping. And then there's physical aspects as well. So headaches, GI issues or other ailments that are coming up. The individual might like not be as productive. Or maybe it's like one of your colleagues that, you know, you look at like the energizer bunny that just keeps going and then maybe now they just are not that way at all. Increased mistakes as well can be other things that are coming up. Maybe they're demonstrating reduced empathy towards their patients, their colleagues, and avoiding certain cases, or maybe certain colleagues as well. And maybe they're describing that they're having nightmares, backs of what just.

Dr. Marie: Yeah, gosh, so many different things that we could see. And it takes me back to some of those incidents whereby, yeah, like, I can remember after that one case, like, just being really scared for another ventilator case to come in or having a really traumatic euthanasia for whatever reason, whether it was like the family was like, in anguish or something happened, it's like, ugh, like you're just on pins and needles thinking, like, what if I have to go into another euthanasia?

Dr. Marie: So lots of different things, and certainly the ideal would be to have the critical incident group debrief as soon as possible after the event so that we can avoid some of these symptoms that may develop or at least recognize them when they do, and have the individual recognize them so that they know, okay, I am seeing this in myself and I need to seek further help or, you know, normalizing and. Or normalizing that. I'm sure a lot of people are hearing about critical incident group debriefing for the first time. Could you walk us through what that looks like? What can participants expect if they were to go through a debriefing like this?

Julie: Yeah, absolutely. So the very first thing that's going to happen is, you know, you would have a situation or an area in which you were, whether that be within the hospital, or maybe sometimes it would be outside side of the hospital, depending on where it's going to be the most private or, you know, to maintain confidentiality. But what you're going to see is that the facilitator, whomever that may be, whether that's a mental health professional or somebody who's been trained to facilitate critical incident group debriefings, they're going to introduce themselves, they're going to let the group know who they are, they're going to explain the purpose of the debriefing and really importantly, set the expectations of the process, talking about confidentiality and ensuring the fact that whatever is discussed within the group is kept confidential.

Julie: Anybody within that group stepping outside of that group, everything stays within that. There's going to be ground rules and establishing of guidelines for the discussion. So things such as respect for each other's experiences, active listening and refraining from judgment and criticism of one another, because, I mean, everybody's experiences are going to be different. Just because one individual within the group experiences something doesn't mean that's going to be another's experience. So recognizing that there's going to be an incident overview that will occur, so the facilitator will recap the incident and ensure that everyone is on the same page regarding the event and what happened. And then the individuals will then begin sharing their Personal experiences and feelings related to the incident.

Julie: So this can include their thoughts during the event, their emotional reactions afterwards, and any coping mechanisms that they may have employed to help get them through that. And then the facilitator will encourage all participants to express their feelings, whether it's sadness, anger, confusion or relief. With that being said, there would also be a respect to the fact that if there were individuals that were not comfortable like sharing within a heart group session, that would be respected and there would always be time allotted for afterwards. If certain individuals wanted to speak one one with the facilitator as opposed to within the group setting. The emotional-like processing and acknowledgement of feelings of the participant would be guided by the facilitator who would be validating those experiences, normalizing their reactions to the incident.

Julie: The facilitator may highlight common emotional responses to trauma in order to help the participants understand that their feelings are valid and shared by the others. There would be exploration of coping strategies by participants discussing the strategies they use to cope with the incident, which can provide valuable insights and foster a sense of collaboration like within the group. By doing that, it can then create these open discussions that are happening and the facilitator may then offer additional coping strategies and self-care techniques that the participants can use moving forward. They may even run through some of that stuff within the debriefing and then identifying lessons learned by the group, which is a really big one, like what went well during the incident, what could have maybe been improved upon.

Julie: Having that reflective process can then help the teams develop, like actionable insights and enhance their responsibilities to similar situations. During this time, the team members can also brainstorm ways to prepare and then respond to similar incidents in the future. And then closing and resources will come into the wrapping up at the end of the session by the facilitator. They'll then summarize key points, discuss and reinforce the importance of mutual support among the team members. Because it's not just a matter of being within that group debriefing. These are things that we would want to see move forward with the team so that they're continuing to have this support and collaboration with one another and then just letting them know, like information about any additional resources or help that they can get.

Julie: So mental health resources, so individual counseling options, support groups, care tips for moving forward and then to end it all. The facilitator likely would talk to them about whether they would suggest follow up meetings or check-ins happen for ongoing support for the team members as they continue to process the incident over time.

Dr. Marie: Wow. Yeah. So it sounds to me like this very structured process is really what gives people the safety and the comfort to speak up. Right. The fact that there is confidentiality, the fact that there's these expectations for non judgment respect, essentially holding space for everyone to have their own experience and that every experience is normal. Like every experience is okay. There's no right or wrong way to feel after an incident like this. And I know that we do. You and I offer the Critical Incident Group debriefing at Reviving Veterinary Medicine and we came up with that handout that gets shared to groups once they've been through a debriefing. We'll link to that in the show notes because it is available for everyone.

Dr. Marie: But really emphasizing here's what you can expect, like this is what all the ways you could expect to feel and here are the things that we encourage you to do and the things we want you to avoid. So talking through coping strategies and also maybe highlighting some default knee jerk reactions that some of us have avoidance, isolation, binge watching Netflix or taking in unhealthy substances to excess so that we can recognize that's maybe not going to be helpful. I love that.

Dr. Marie: Hey there, quick break. If you haven't heard, my book A Compassionate Calling is available for pre order now and releases August 18, 2025. It's a heartfelt look at the joys and challenges of veterinary life and I'd love for you to check it out. Visit revivingvetmed.com/book for a sneak peek and to grab your exclusive discount code. That's revivingvetmed.com/book, you won't want to miss it.

Dr. Marie: I can imagine. We talk a lot about stigma in vet medicine when it comes to mental health and seeking support. A lot of veterinary professionals feel like they should just be able to get through everything and never need support because we're caregivers and we help others, we don't need help. What do you see as some of the biggest barriers or stigmas around potentially participating in a debrief in the veterinary setting?

Julie: So for me, what I've experienced personally as well as professionally is that like you were just mentioning, many veterinary professionals perceive seeking help as signs of weakness or inadequacy. There's also a strong concern I feel about being judged right. Judged by our colleagues, management supervisors. They if any of us express any emotional distress or want to seek assistance and I think that fear then leads to this isolation and reluctance to share feelings. And there's just been such a mentality for so long and that culture that has existed in tough it out, right, like Vet Med has promoted that idea that individuals believe they must handle difficult situations independently, which then also discourages them to seek that help.

Julie: And I think the other big piece can also be that competitive nature that can be attached, which in turn fosters an environment where individuals can feel pressure to appear strong and untroubled and therefore unlikely to seek help. And I just think addressing these barriers and stigmas requires, like, an effort from the individuals on the teams, but also from management, ownership. And I think by fostering a culture of openness and providing more of an education around mental health and establishing supportive policies, the veterinary community on a whole can help reduce those stigmas and encourage individuals to seek the help that they need when they need it.

Dr. Marie: Yeah, it really seems like critical incident group debriefings would really fit into the broader strategy of mental health awareness and stigma reduction in veterinary settings, because it really is creating this normalcy around. We talk about it, this is what we do. And I've seen a shift in this way when it comes to CPR with the RECOVER guidelines and more formal guidelines really around how we do cpr. There's also been formal recommendations around how we cope in the aftermath of cpr, how do we engage in debriefs. And those, of course, are a little bit different, much shorter than what we would do in these sorts of situations.

Dr. Marie: But nevertheless, it is normalizing the fact that going through a CPR is a distressing event and part of getting closure after that event and as you shared, taking away those things that went well, we need to talk about it. We can't just kind of disperse and then never think about it again and just carry that stuff home. And so debriefings really help to break down the silence as you share around these mental health issues and just really opening up the ability to share what we're experiencing and to talk through it. So I love that. I love that culture of support and awareness. What advice would you give to a practice manager or a leader who wants to introduce critical incident group debriefings, but they're not sure how to start or they're worried about how their team is gonna receive it?

Julie: Yeah, I think first and foremost it is that they themselves familiarize themselves with the principles and benefits of critical incident group debriefing first, because without doing that, I think it's going to be very difficult for them to sell to their teams. Because the reality is, I think with changes like this and shifts that we want to see happen and that definitely need to happen. There is that component of being able to really explain it to its extent so that everyone understands the importance of it and to ensure that the sharing of the information and those educational materials for their team, that they're doing that they're sharing that with them, allowing the team to take the time to read through it and fully understand it.

Julie: So it basically demystifies the whole concept and maybe helps take away some of those fears or reluctance that might be there. And make sure to leave space for the team members to be like, anonymous in order to communicate their interests and concerns through feedback. Like, I really encourage feedback. I know we've talked about this before even within my counseling practice. Like I'm going to encourage that feedback from my clients because it then makes individuals feel more comfortable expressing their thoughts and to be more likely to be open about it and make sure that the management supervisors ownership that they're seeking the guidance of that qualified facilitator and reach out to them to help with communicating the benefits and to let the team know what to expect. Like what we just talked about going through. What does that look like?

Julie: Step by step, so they're ready for it ahead of time. And last but certainly not least is being open with your own experiences as a leader. Show vulnerability with and talk to them about your experiences with stress or with mental health issues like modeling that vulnerability. Going to encourage your team to do the same. And it reinforces why it's so important to seek the support of critical group debriefings during stressful and traumatic incidents.

Dr. Marie: Yeah, I think that self-disclosure piece is so important in reducing the stigma and diminishing those barriers because then a person sees that someone that they look up to or answer to or whatever, they're engaging in those supports too. I mean I openly talk about my use of employee assistance programs, my own private counseling and other things and how that's helped me. I think that's really makes it easier for people to feel like, oh okay, if she's doing it then why wouldn't I consider doing that as well? You mentioned the benefits. It's important to highlight the benefits on the part of selling this so-called. You know, I don't want to use the word selling, but you know what I mean, like making this feel accessible to the team. We talk a lot about burnout and compassion fatigue in vet med.

Dr. Marie: As far as benefits go, how does critical incident debriefing help to diminish those from occurring?

Julie: So studies have actually shown that by providing emotional support and a safe space for expression. It can alleviate the burden of stress and provide a sense of relief which is crucial in preventing burnout. And then the overall normalization of the reactions that have taken place in those individuals that have experienced these incidences reduces the feelings of isolation which helps them realize they're not alone in these, which is a big piece. It leads to building trust amongst the team members which can lead to more effective collaboration, more mutual support which are very important protective factors. When we're looking at compassion fatigue, know they've got that.

Julie: Encouraging that self-reflection during debriefing during that overall process encourages individuals to reflect on their emotional well being act of their work which then in turn having this self-awareness prompts them to take proactive steps to address their mental health and therefore aid in prevention of burnout and compassion fatigue overall.

Dr. Marie: Wow. So there's such ripple effects. I would never have thought that I and certainly not in that way. So benefits for the individual, benefits for the team and then benefits for the future of this individual's mental health and well being just increasing the awareness. I can imagine there's individuals out there who've experienced critical incidents or traumatic episodes, but they don't have access to group debriefing. Maybe they don't even have access to EAP or mental health benefits. What are some healthy self-care or coping strategies that you would recommend to those individuals?

Julie: One of the biggest things that can be so helpful across so many different areas like when we're looking at our own mental health, is journaling. So journaling, creative writing. Journaling allows access to the emotions, to the feelings. It is part of a tool to process what you are going through. Being able to write it all down on paper to be able to go back, look at that, maybe some individuals might want to type on a computer, maybe they have a journal entries that way whatever it looks like for that individual and whatever feels comfortable are things that can have great impact on being able to process whatever stress and trauma that they're looking at. Mindfulness, I know this is a big one for you as well. Mindfulness, meditation, yoga, breathing, those deep breathing exercises, all of those things.

Julie: There's so many places now even if we just look at YouTube to be able to access for free, to go on where there's trained individuals that can guide you through a meditation. Reviving Veterinary Medicine offers that, with on their website. Within your podcast you have different meditation processes as well that are all free and accessible and are so helpful and so useful within obsessing simple things like exercise, getting outdoors into the fresh air. If you're an individual who's artistic or creative, get into that. Whether that's painting, whether that's playing an instrument, or even just listening to music sometimes are ways of helping. Remembering that self-compassion piece and being kind to yourself and acknowledging those feelings, not just necessarily pushing them away, but allowing them to be. And overall establishing of routines within your day as well.

Julie: When something has happened or something that has come up that has offset that, just remembering to try and stay consistent, going back to that with routines and normalizing those routines will also help.

Dr. Marie: It's so funny to me. I know this came up a lot during COVID right where it was. Everyone just felt like their world was turned upside down. And it was. And really this emphasis on trying to still keep a routine. Try to feel like you have control over something in your day despite not having control over the circumstances around us. And we can't control what happens to us in vet med. These things are going to happen in our environments and many of them are out of our control. But we do have control over our reactions, how we cope, what we do to take care of ourselves, how we take care of each other. This has been such helpful information. Julie, I'm so grateful for all your wisdom and expertise.

Dr. Marie: Before I let you go, I want to ask you something that we ask all of our guests, which is what does the phrase reviving veterinary medicine mean to you?

Julie: This is a big one for me because I just find it resonates really deeply with me. It embodies a vision of transformation and renewal within a field that I hold very dear and have for a really long time. To me, it signifies a collective effort to reimagine how we support the mental health and well being of those who dedicate their lives to the caring of animals. As someone who is passionate, very passionate about changing the landscape of mental health support in veterinary medicine, I see this revival as more than just a response to the challenges we face. It's about fostering a culture that prioritizes emotional health, compassion and community among veterinary professionals. For too long, the stigma surrounding mental health has kept many from seeking the support they need.

Julie: And so to me, reviving veterinary medicine is a call to action, reminder that we have the power to reshape our field in one that values mental health as much as it values medical expertise.

Dr. Marie: I love that. Beautifully said, Julie. Well, thank you so much again. I really appreciate the opportunity to have you on and to get to talk to you about this really important tool that we have really to support team members and to better their mental health. So thank you so much once again.

Julie: Yes, and thank you so much once again.

Dr. Marie: So that's it for this episode of Reviving Vet Med. I hope you took away something meaningful about how veterinary professionals can better support each other after difficult cases or emotionally charged events. Whether it's a tragic patient outcome, a medical emergency, or just a really hard shift critical incident, debriefing gives us a space to pause, process and begin to heal. If this episode got you thinking about how your team could benefit from debriefing, I hope you'll share it with a colleague or leader at your clinic. If you're interested in bringing debriefing to your clinic or learning more about Julie work, you'll find everything linked in the show notes or at revivingvetmed.com Please subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already done so that you don't miss future episodes.

Dr. Marie: You can also follow us on social media at revivingvetmed for more well being tools, tips and support.

Dr. Marie: If you have questions, topic suggestions, or want to inquire about sponsorship, you can always reach us at podcast@revivingvetmed.com. Special thanks to the team at Podcast Prime Solutions for producing this episode, to Julie Morse Elliott for being our guest, and most of all, thank you for listening. Until next time, take care of yourself. Bye for now.