Changing the Conversation About Suicide in Veterinary Medicine | Episode 74 | Reviving Vet Med

Conversations about suicide can be uncomfortable—but they’re essential. In this thoughtful and deeply informative episode, we speak with Dr. Jen Brandt, Director of Member Wellbeing Initiatives at the American Veterinary Medical Association, to talk about suicide prevention, stigma reduction, and building truly supportive workplaces in veterinary medicine.

With advanced suicidology training and a career dedicated to mental health and wellbeing, Jen brings nuance, clarity, and compassion to a topic too often oversimplified or shrouded in myth. We discuss common misconceptions—such as the idea that veterinarians have the very highest suicide rates or that client interactions are the primary cause of risk—and explore the far more complex factors at play.

Jen also shares why language matters when talking about suicide, how veterinary professionals can recognize and respond to warning signs, and the empowering role of trainings like QPR or ASK. We delve into the stigma that still keeps too many from seeking help, and what individuals and organizations alike can do to change that.

Whether you’re a veterinary professional, a leader in the field, or simply someone who cares about mental health, this conversation offers insight, actionable steps, and hope for a more compassionate future in veterinary medicine. 

Trigger Warning: This episode discusses suicide. If you or someone you know is thinking about suicide, please call or text 988 in the United States or Canada, or visit https://findahelpline.com/ to find a helpline in your country.

Watch the Video Version of this Episode
https://youtu.be/YtJluZkYqWc

Resources
AVMA resources pertaining to suicide (scroll down and select Suicide Prevention and Support): https://www.avma.org/resources-tools/wellbeing 

Toolkit for people impacted by suicide: https://mentalhealthcommission.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Toolkit-for-people-who-have-been-impacted-by-a-suicide-loss.pdf 

Media guidelines for suicide prevention: https://suicideprevention.ca/media/media-guidelines/ 

Recommendations for reporting on suicide: https://reportingonsuicide.org/ 

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Transcript

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk: Hi everyone, it's Dr. Marie Holowaychuk here. If you're like me and love staying up to date on what's happening in vet med beyond just cases and clinical pearls, you'll want to check out What's Up Doc, the new podcast from Scribenote. Hosted by Dr. Katie Gallagher, veterinarian and co-founder of Scribenote, what's Up Doc dives into the real conversations happening in our industry, from the latest trends in tech to mental health and the everyday challenges veterinary professionals face. I had the chance to be a guest on the show to talk about all things veterinary well being and trust me, it's not your average vet med podcast. So wherever you listen to your podcasts, search What’s Up Doc by Scribenote, hit follow and join the conversation. Hey everyone, welcome to another Episode of Reviving Vet Med. Today's episode contains discussion of suicide. 

Dr. Marie: If you or someone you know is having thoughts of suicide, please call or text 988 in Canada or the USA or visit findahelpline.com to connect with a helpline in your country. Today we're taking an unflinching yet compassionate look at suicide prevention in vet medicine, a topic that's both deeply personal and critically important for our profession. Joining me is Dr. Jen Brant, Director of Member Well Being Initiatives at the American Veterinary Medical Association with a Ph.D. master of Social Work and advanced suicidology training and decades of experience supporting individuals and organizations, Jen brings unmatched expertise to this conversation. She has devoted her career to creating systemic change, reducing stigma, and fostering workplace cultures that truly support mental well being. In this episode, we explore the myths and misconceptions about suicide in vet medicine, the complex realities behind risk factors, and why language matters so profoundly. 

Dr. Marie:  When we talk about these issues, Jen also shares practical tools and resources that can empower us to recognize warning signs, have courageous conversations, and connect colleagues with help. This is a nuanced, deeply human conversation that I believe can shift how we think, speak and act when it comes to suicide in veterinary medicine. So let's get into this very important episode. This is the Reviving Vet Med podcast and I'm your host, Dr. Marie Holowaychuk. My mission is to improve the mental health and well being of veterinary professionals around the world. 

Dr. Marie:  Hi Jen, it's so great to have you on the podcast today. Thanks for joining me. 

Dr. Jen Brandt: Thanks so much for having me. 

Dr. Marie:  This is such an important topic and I know it's one that you and I feel deeply passionate about and we've had many side conversations over the years and just felt really called to have you on the podcast to be able to answer some questions that I think are on a lot of people's minds. And before we get into that, I was hoping that you could share a little bit about your background, specifcally your training in suicidology and suicide prevention and your role at the AVMA related to those efforts. 

Dr. Jen:  I'd be happy to. Yes. I'm a social worker and sociologist. Suicide and suicide prevention has been deeply personal to me for over 40 years, and so I committed early on to learning as much as I could. I've taken advanced suicidology training as both a certified psychological autopsy investigator and a crisis worker through the American association of Suicidology. I think I mentioned I spent over 40 years in this space. So I've completed hundreds of hours of training in prevention, intervention, and postvention and have worked in maybe almost setting with these skills. I've worked on crisis lines, level one trauma centers. I've been in patient and outpatient groups. I provide direct clinical care. I've run support groups for survivors of suicide as well as vulnerable youth and adults. And I've done this work both inside and outside of veterinary medicine. 

Dr. Marie:  Wow. It's tremendous you have such a wealth of knowledge to share, which is why I always love asking you questions when things come up for me in my advocacy work and in the education that I share, I always know that you're going to be a great resource. And, you know, that leads me, I think, to one of the first questions I wanted to ask you, which is, what are some of the most common questions or concerns that you hear about suicide from people both in and outside of the profession? And how do you typically respond to some of those questions? 

Dr. Jen: I would say it does depend on context. Probably the most frequent question I get will come after I've done a presentation, and it will be from someone who has lost a loved one to suicide. So much of training in presentations will be geared to prevention, but we always need to remember there are people who are survivors in the audience. And so my response will certainly vary according to context. But often when people come up, they're actively grieving in those moments and may even have trouble speaking at that moment. It's like they've held on to this for so long, and then here's this opportunity to share it. So I just let them know you have the space, right? I'm here to listen, and I let them grieve as they need to. 

Dr. Jen:  Again, depending on context, I may ask them to share about their loved one, if that's fitting for the situation. I often will share some just brief background information on grief in general, but also specifcally how grief from suicide can be a different experience. It can be very complex. We experience isolation in a different way. Perhaps, you know, less social support. We consider it, you know, disenfranchised grief. If your loved one died with a heart attack, you may get a lot of support. If it's by suicide, it's like people may not even approach you at all. I talk about how normal it is to feel guilt and shame and regret. And I also normalize anger. And I will say, when I say that, I often get like an immediate reaction then. And the person will say, I have felt so angry. 

Dr. Jen: And so to talk about how that is okay, and it's good to express that. And then I will generally provide some resources. There are resources that are specific to suicide survivors or survivors of suicide and that have been explicitly developed with people with lived experience at the table. So Canada has a good one through the Mental Health Commission of Canada. It's a toolkit for people who have been impacted by suicide loss, written directly by a survivor. American foundation for Suicide Prevention. United Suicide Survivors International offers community. Their tagline is providing purpose for the pain. So channeling that into maybe activism and other things. International association for Suicide Prevention. There are so many resources, I could not list them all here. 

Dr. Jen: But I would say for sure that I emphasize that there's no one size resource fits all, so you may go to one and that doesn't help. Like, don't stop there. That there are so many options to choose from that it's worth continuing to invest some time in finding the one that might be the best fit. 

Dr. Marie: So that's great advice and we'll definitely link to those resources, or at least a few of them in the show notes. It's so interesting that you lead with that because grief is such a complex thing in and of itself. And then you add grieving, a loved one, or even a colleague or coworker who's died by suicide. And there's so much more complexity and layering to that. And I think you bring up a good point is it goes without saying that everyone in and outside of the profession is likely to be touched by suicide at some point in their life. Which brings me to the question that I want to ask you next, which is that there seem to be a few myths and misconceptions about suicide circulating specific to veterinary medicine. 

Dr. Marie: What would you say some of the biggest myths are that you encounter and why is it important that we correct those myths as advocates and educators? 

Dr. Jen: There are a number of them. I will say many of the myths really are universal. Like we carry them in veterinary medicine. But others do too. Like if a person is talking about suicide, they're just seeking attention. That's not true. When I look at Vet Med specific ones. A common misconception that has been identified in the Merck animal health well being studies is that there's this view that veterinarians don't like their careers, that they're leaving in droves, and the data does not support that. In their studies. When they ask veterinarians about, you know, their general satisfaction, they say, in general, I am satisfied with my career. But when you ask that same veterinarian what they think about how others are feeling, less than 50% of those veterinarians believe that others in the profession are satisfied. And so it's just this interesting gap. 

Dr. Jen:  And we look at the culture of the negative messaging that despite the evidence that we are doing okay, we somehow are assuming that no one else is, because that tends to be the information we're inundated with. Related to that, a misconception that a deficits approach or alarmist messaging is harmless. It's not. And there's no evidence to support it. But that is very prevalent in Vet Med. I think another myth is that be kind to us messaging campaigns are harmless. They are not. In fact, in many ways it's hard to overstate the ripple effects of continuing to take that approach. I'd say another one that is not unique to veterinary medicine in any way. 

Dr. Jen: It's prevalent in veterinary medicine is the belief that we are so unique from anyone else that no one that isn't a veterinarian or veterinary professional could understand us or offer any perspectives that would be helpful. And I have the privilege of working with what's called a group of safety sensitive professionals. So it includes veterinarians, firefighters, police, attorneys, pilots, and each one of them, like the common joke in the room is we're all so unique and yet here we all together, sharing the same experiences and so kind of recognizing that again, we have more in common than we don't. And maybe a last one I would suggest is that for many, again, not unique to veterinary medicine, but prevalent in veterinary medicine is the belief that the work has to be my identity, right? There's no separation. 

Dr. Jen: So I am veterinary medicine versus I practice veterinary medicine. And while that passion is a strength, when we believe that, it definitely makes us more vulnerable. So like, if there is a mistake in the job, then my whole life is a failure, and we're more vulnerable. And we need to address all of these myths because they do cause harm. They can leave us feeling more isolated. It can limit the solutions that we even think are available or that we would consider. It narrows our sense and skews our sense of who we are. And when we can, you know, take kind of that broader picture, we can recognize where there's common ground and we can build a critical mass that would benefit more. And also, addressing some of this messaging helps us build a fuller identity. 

Dr. Jen: Like, we recognize that, yes, work is a part of our life. It isn't the only part of our life, in turn, that can give us a sense of greater stability, more sources of meaning. Right Again, I can have other things going on in my life that helps fulfill it, and a greater capacity in general for maintaining equilibrium or getting our way back to equilibrium when a challenge does occur. 

Dr. Marie: Oh, my goodness. So many great points and so many things that I want to respond to. You know, I think this gap, first of all, it reminds me of vet school, where I never wanted to raise my hand and ask a question, because I thought, surely I'm the only one in the room that doesn't understand what the professor just said. And the reality is that it probably is likely that there are more people in the room that didn't understand. And so there's this gap in the perception between what others are experiencing and what we are experiencing. I think, as well, you highlight this tendency to make our experience so big and bad that there's no way out, that this is inevitable. And you and I have talked about this, how we've seen this shift in the profession where burnout is inevitable. 

Dr. Marie: And of course, veterinarians are dying by suicide because we have these astronomically high rates of suicide, and we know that these things are not true. And it can become frustrating to be on the other side of that and to be advocating and to see these messages being propagated over and over. I would love to hear you speak to the rates of suicide among veterinarians and other professionals, because I think we need to really understand what the data actually shows and why this myth continues to persist among people in, and sometimes even outside of the profession. 

Dr. Jen: There's a lot. I will briefly say that I think even statisticians who look at suicide death data will say it's confusing. And it's confusing because although suicide obviously is a deeply significant issue, when we look at the number of deaths by suicide, it is still considered a rare event compared to leading causes of death like cancer or heart disease. And so statistically, when you have a small number, it is hard to have robust statistics that you can apply or pull a lot of information from. And then even a small change in the number of cases can make rates appear to shift dramatically. 

Dr. Jen: Another challenge with the statistics, and I won't bore you with all of this, but I think it contributes to why there's misunderstandings that because of that small number, sometimes in the same article, you will see the term crude rate or a number per 100,000 for one group, like males, but then for females, like in the very next line, they'll use a term like standardized mortality ratios or proportional mortality ratios. And like there's no way to do anything with that, like apples to apples. I liken it to if we're reading lab results, but nobody told us the method, nobody tells us a reference range. So yes, we have a number, but what does the number mean? So with that background, like it is confusing what the data show. 

Dr. Jen: And I'll also say one of the challenges with data related to suicide deaths is that there is a gap in the data. We can't report it in real time. So the data I'll reference comes from 2021 data set and was reported by the CDC in 2023. And what we see in that data is that there are several industries that have higher suicide rates in veterinary medicine. I will say, even when that statement has said many people who have believed the misinformation about rates of suicide often will get very angry or emotional. And so like to be clear, the data is intended to be neutral, right? It's just here's the numbers and as scientists we can look at the numbers. So among men, the highest rate of suicide that was reported was 147 per 100,000. And that was in the industry of aerospace product manufacturing. 

Dr. Jen: And you don't usually hear that in suicide rate discussions followed by that 147 per 100,000. There were industries like arts and spectator sports, which will also show up with women. Logging, fishing and hunting and coal mining. Coal mining was 84 per 100,000. All of those are significantly higher than the estimated rate for male veterinarians, which is 42.1 per 100,000. Similar story with the women. And looking at the highest rate from this report, again, data can differ. The Highest rate was 46.5 per 100,000 in performing arts and spectator sports. So both genders then bars and establishments that serve alcohol, specialized design services, beauty salons, nail salons and other personal care services, all higher than the rate of suicide death in female veterinarians, which is at 12.8 per 100,000. And I want to say the data is simply the data. 

Dr. Jen: It's not about saying that one group doesn't matter more, it's simply the data. And I would say when you talk to the statisticians, they will say it's not really about comparing the rates by industry per se, because again, as a raw data, that doesn't actually tell us much, that when we're looking at big picture data, it's recognizing that the majority of people who die by suicide are working age. There are higher rates of suicide in other age groups, but in terms of sheer number, the majority of people are working age. In turn, that lets us know that the workplace is a critical point of intervention, not for one profession, but for all of them. And that casting out these, you know, universal standards that we know help prevent or buffer would benefit everyone regardless. 

Dr. Jen: On if you're number one on the list or number 10 on the list, you know, things like accessible, affordable healthcare. What we can do though, with the data is they get curious and dig in a little more. For example, in Vet Med, a study that was done by Tracy Witte looked at the manner of death. She found that when you controlled for the number of deaths that were by a pentobarb overdose, the rate of suicide in veterinarians became the approximate same as the general population. So that one piece of data can help us specifically hone in, not at the expense of all the other universal standards that if we had, would be a buffer. And in terms of why myth persists, many factors. I think something that was unique to Vet Med is there was a beloved renowned veterinarian who died by suicide. 

Dr. Jen: And the response to that was dramatic, for lack of a better word. A lot of messaging came out after that was inaccurate, unfortunately, but also took an alarmist approach. And the difficulty, it's kind of like the perfect storm. We know that in the aftermath of a suicide, there are a percentage of people who are more vulnerable during that time. They are more at risk. So when you combine that with a beloved veterinarian who died by suicide, dramatic statements coming out with misinformation and coming from our own, you know, again, it kind of contributes to the perfect storm. And then something we know from COVID and vaccine hesitancy, there's something called the illusory truth effect. It's really kind of a fancy name for a brain bias. 

Dr. Jen: And the brain bias and all of our brains are like, that is when we see information repeated, we believe it's true. Even when the data on the surface, like, even when you would say we have reason to be skeptical, like, who says it doesn't matter? If it's repeated, it becomes true. So then we had this repeated misinformation in an alarmist way when people were vulnerable. And then as part of that misinformation, became an identity. Again, looking at the wrong information. I think some of the claims were veterinarians have the highest rate of suicide on the planet and the globe. Working groups and task forces were all sent up with that message as if that assumed information was correct. It wasn't. But then hanging on to that wrong information became an identity, like, that's who we are. You referenced that like we're all suffering. 

Dr. Jen: It's just who we are. It's inevitable. When we have that emotional, compelling information, it is easier to just hit share and like than it is to say, stop, I need to fact check this. Like, what's the source of the data? Is it verified? And then what we also know, we talk about, yes, you should issue correct information and we should. However, that brain bias now believes something is true. So even when you are given the absolute facts from multiple trustworthy sources, you know, here's what the CDC says, here's what the American foundation for Suicide Prevention says. All these sources, people will actually double down on the wrong information. They aren't convinced when they have the facts in front of us because they've already determined that what they have and what they've heard is correct. So it is a challenge. 

Dr. Jen: It is definitely entrenched misinformation and it is a challenge to address it for sure. 

Dr. Marie: There's so many things that contribute to this challenge, you know, and I think you highlight a big one, which is how easy it is to perpetuate some of these messages on social media with various hashtags and just reshares. The same information just gets shared and shared and shared without looking at it. I think that brings us to one of the other big common misconceptions about suicide among veterinary professionals. And you alluded to this with the myth that kindness campaigns work, specifically telling our clients to be kind. Because there is this belief that many individuals hold, especially when there is a suicide of a veterinarian that is talked about in the media that is linked to something that happened with a client, that the assumption gets made that clients are causing veterinarians to die by suicide. 

Dr. Marie: And you and I have even seen Articles that have been published that share that headline and posts that perpetuate this belief. I would love to hear you explain how complex suicide really is and why we can't ever pin it one single thing. 

Dr. Jen: So I'll go back a bit again if you don't mind. Again, about the brain. We like answers. I kind of describe it as we tend to like things wrapped up in a nice neat box instead of them just kind of being out there, right? So our brain will search for answer, including making one up. A common analogy I'll give is a three year old whose parents are divorcing. An adult can know that's the parents, right? That the child is not responsible, but that three year old to make sense of this rift that has now happened in their family. It's my fault. And that's the first thought. So then it becomes truth and it's repeated over a lifetime. 

Dr. Jen: You know, I might work with a client who's 50 or 60 years old who is just beginning to impact that at three they decided they were to blame for their parents poor marriage. So our brains do that and we settle on that explanation. So that's just one of the inclinations we have. What I can tell you from the perspective of a psychological autopsy investigator and by the way, you can't do the investigation on every suicide death. The family has to allow you in. And it also depends on what information they will give you access to. But when we can get them, we can look at banking habits, we can interview somebody that knew the person in childhood, we can look at school records. Like we can get a more complete picture of the person. 

Dr. Jen: And what we often find is that a person might have a puzzle piece. So in vet med what I'll often see is that the person who died by suicide is described as the life of the party. They were always smiling there for everybody. Like think about how many times we've heard that play out. And from that person's description, that is the person that they knew a piece of the puzzle. But you will interview other people who will say no, you know, that is how they wanted to be perceived. That isn't who they were behind closed doors, that they may have battled with depression or bipolar disorder, or been on medication or abusing substances or have been talking about suicide for 10 years. But that information, first of all we're not going to know it overnight. 

Dr. Jen: And often when we're making assumptions, we think we know the answer and it's out within two hours, let alone time for a full investigation. So that's part of it. The reality is that suicide is so complex. As an investigator, we might find that, let's say there are 15 factors that could have played a role. Will we ever know that it was this ingredient at this percent that mixed with this one on this day and this is how it all came together? No. You know, probably we will never know that. And so we don't even necessarily say cause. We might be able to say a contributor to or a significant contributor to. We certainly know the manner of death and be certain about that, but not all the factors. 

Dr. Jen: And so it's really important, like it's responsible to not guess and be aware that the risk can come from individual, relationship, community, societal factors, and probably all of the above. But as part of that conversation, I think it's also important to recognize that there are also that many protective factors right at individual and relationship efforts. So the risk is that when we bring it to a single cause, we really miss these broader patterns and then with them we miss opportunities to actually prevent when we're focused on suicide or when we're focused on blaming clients. And there's no evidence to suggest that clients are the root of suicide. But we're putting all this information into be nice to us campaigns which are also harmful and not evidence based. 

Dr. Jen: We are missing out on all the areas that we could be making a difference on having that fuller, accurate picture which the standard person, friend, layperson is not going to have. But getting as much of a picture as we can helps us in terms of helping people find safety, improving connection, and helping people find their own reasons to live. 

Dr. Marie: If today's episode resonates with you, I want to share something close to my heart. My new book, A Compassionate Calling: What It Really Means to Be a Veterinarian was written for veterinary professionals like you. One chapter focuses on suicide and our profession, dispelling myths, sharing real stories and highlighting the incredible initiatives working to protect our well being. It's a book about understanding hope and change in vet medicine. Find a compassionate calling wherever books are sold or visit acompassionatecalling.com to learn more. 

Dr. Marie: I've always remembered in my suicide prevention training that as you said, there's so many different risk factors, right? And some of them can be related to work. And you certainly identified access to means as one of those. And many are individual. And I remember learning that I think at one point there was this statistic that said 90%, approximately of people who die by suicide have a pre existing mental illness. And very often mental illnesses pair with Substance use. And we know when individuals who are at risk of suicide are using substances that puts them at greater risk. And we know also from the veterinary studies that many of those veterinarians had substances in their system at the time of death. So it is so multifaceted. 

Dr. Marie: And I know as an advocate and someone who really wants to direct people to support and to invest in their mental health and to reduce stigma, it can feel so frustrating when becomes so oversimplified because as you said, no one ever really knows a person in their entirety, especially when somebody is in the workplace. 

Dr. Jen: Right. 

Dr. Marie: We see that workplace persona. I can think of individuals very close to me in this profession who almost feel like a very different individual at work than they are at home. Like almost like two people. And one can never really know. At the end of the day, it sounds like we really need to take care when it comes to how we have conversations about suicide. I know that in our efforts to reduce stigma around suicide, we're very cognizant of the language that we use as well. It's becoming more and more understood and I'm seeing this shift in media and even on TV that we try to avoid terms like committed suicide. Right. That could indicate that it's a crime or suggest that it's something bad that happened. 

Dr. Marie: And you alluded to this when you talked about families often not getting the same level of support during grieving if they have a loved one who's died by suicide. What are some other ways that we can be mindful of our language when it comes to having these conversations? 

Dr. Jen: Yeah, I love this question because you don't have to be a mental health professional or a suicidal just to follow the standards. There's something called evidence based safe reporting guidelines and they were developed for media when they were reporting out suicide. And what's compelling about these guidelines is they came about because the relationship between how we talk about suicide, particularly in the aftermath, has the power to either reduce risk or unintentionally increase it. And several researchers over a course of many studies studied in multiple countries over multiple time periods, say the relationship is so potent, it is cause and effect. Like not just a correlation, but like that's how powerful our language is. And these safe reporting guidelines, we also don't have to be in media, they can apply to our everyday conversations. Again, good news is anyone can follow them. 

Dr. Jen: So one, don't report sensationalized or graphic details. Like we don't need to go into the specific manner of death, the non stigmatizing language. So we Learned growing up. We talked about committing suicide, but that's associated with a crime and a sin and we don't say you committed cancer. So non stigmatizing language would be died by suicide. We already referenced one of the key guidelines is avoid oversimplifying explanation in the reporting. Again, the power of strength based approaches, not deficit or negative approaches. So focusing on life recovery, hearing from people who've attempted or felt suicidal and then went on to have a good life like we want to hear more from them. The highlighting the stories of the hope and the help seeking, providing clear next steps and resources so people aren't just having to wing it, particularly in a crisis. 

Dr. Jen: Imaging, the imaging we choose, you know, we'll often think that the right image is somebody sad. And actually the data supports that. The images need to convey hope and connection. And so things like a seed growing or a sun or people hugging each other but not necessarily crying when they're doing it. And then importantly, framing prevention as possible and worthwhile. And I want to say this isn't about tone policing or word policing. It is acknowledging the reality that language is not neutral and that it has the power to again shape risk or your willingness to seek help. And we can all become more intentional and all commit to following these guidelines. 

Dr. Marie: I love that you mentioned prevention and wanting that to be a really important focus. How do you see trainings like QPR that the ABMA offers as a way to empower veterinary professionals to feel confident in recognizing risks and intervening if it's necessary? 

Dr. Jen: So the analogy that pops into my brain, we've probably been at the airport where, you know, it's something like see something, say something. But when it comes to suicide prevention, like what do we say? That information can make sense, but what do we say? And so really these kinds of programs, you're not a mental health expert afterward, nor are you expected to be, but they can help you take some of that fear and that uncertainty and transform that into readiness. Like, I have enough confidence now that I could speak up. Similar to cpr, we take CPR training for humans. It doesn't mean we're a cardiologist, nor are we expected to be. But wow, is that training really important because you can be that window of time that buys somebody access to help. And so these kind of trainings do the same thing. 

Dr. Jen: When you're taught to recognize warning signs, when you are taught to ask directly about suicide and given the wording for how to do that, when you are reminded that listening without judgment is important and not jumping in and Dispensing advice or physically, literally helping connect someone to help, saying we can call 988 together or you know, we can talk through this together. Having that and having the chance to practice it makes those skills available for when they are needed. Yeah, I think one of the biggest. 

Dr. Marie: Things that we see as a barrier to helping individuals who are at risk of suicide is stigma. That's, I think a big risk factor that we've identified in the profession. What would you say that individuals organizations and workplaces can do to help reduce stigma and promote help seeking among anybody who is in need of mental health support, whether or not they're having suicidal thoughts or not? 

Dr. Jen: So I'd say one thing that helps is when we're talking about stigma, what we mean are the everyday actions and policies and attitudes that we're applying. Right. Like so it's tangible and so it would look like again, thinking systemically. Embedding mental health into everyday culture. Are we talking about it or are we only talking about it after a crisis occurs? At organizational levels, we can integrate mental health into routine safety rounds like just well being checks. And that's just a part of who we are and what we do. We can ensure confidential, affordable, accessible care. Telling somebody there's a resource but then not having the money to go to it isn't helpful as part of that offering flexible scheduling without penalty, you know, make sure people can get to their appointments. 

Dr. Jen: Another thing would be setting clear anti retaliation norms that if you are asking for help, there's not a penalty. At an individual level, it can look like speaking up when there are jokes being made. People are crazy or they're just being bipolar. Like we're not going to use that language at an individual level. Sharing our own stories in appropriate, safe ways, by the way, that would be another topic. It isn't just about blurting out your story, but talking about mental health as openly as we might. Our stomach is hurting or something. And then a habit of checking in with people regularly, not just when we think about something is wrong. 

Dr. Jen: It's really about saying let's make this visible and safe to talk about and let's be here for each other instead of having that just be that thing over there that we'll deal with only when there's a crisis and then only for five minutes and then we'll go back to the way things are. Like this has to just be woven into the fabric of our workplaces. 

Dr. Marie: Yeah, just having a culture of normalizing mental health conversations and accessing mental Health support. It's so important. You know, I've in the hospital as an emergency and critical care specialist. We have rounds on our patients every day, case handoffs. And for me it's a great easy time to check in with the team to ask how everybody's doing, not just how are the cases doing and what are we doing today, but how are we doing and to make that a normal part of the conversation and, you know, to be open to supporting individuals when they need to step away or take a break or tend to themselves. And I agree, you know, I'm definitely not for utilizing the clinic floor to just share, dump your mental health history on everyone. 

Dr. Marie: But I'm not afraid to tell people that I'm looking forward to my appointment with my therapist coming up later this week or that I've been dealing with a lot of behavioral challenges with my daughter that have really impacted my mental health. Like, I think we can normalize this conversation just like we would for. Yeah, I tweaked my shoulder when I was playing pickleball last weekend and ooh, you know, I'm dealing with that. Its physical and mental health are equally important and should be regarded the same. What role do you think veterinary teams and leaders play in creating that workplace culture that promotes mental well being and suicide prevention? 

Dr. Jen: They set the tone, right? Is well being a priority and not just because we say it is, but because we show it is, or is it a sideline? We probably often read that when we think about culture, we think about policies and procedures. And that's true, that certainly contributes to culture. But what really builds culture is the thousands of interactions we have day in and day out, how we treat each other. So specific actions that teams and leaders can take are do we admit mistakes when we make them and do we treat them as a learning opportunity? So often what I'll see in medicine, in human med and vet med, is when there's a mistake made, we want to blame the one person, shame them and blame them instead of stepping back and realizing that mistakes generally happen in a system. 

Dr. Jen: And so how can we all play a role responding to concerns with curiosity instead of criticism? If we have a safe environment, then it needs to be okay that people give us feedback and again, pick your timing. And yes, there are better ways to do it than not. But if our only reaction is ever to be angry and defensive that we're not making any progress, it's about making sure everyone has a voice at the table. It doesn't mean that every idea that comes forward can be Done. But often we'll find that there's like one leader who is as far removed from the daily operations as you can get and then they'll be the one making the standards or the changes. So like everybody needs to weigh in on what would really work in relation to feedback. 

Dr. Jen: Again, it doesn't mean that everything you hear you can apply, but do follow up with people so that they know it was worth the time and investment. People say, I stopped talking not because I didn't have ideas and not because I thought things were great, but because no one was listening. It was like talking to a wall, learning how to manage conflict. So often we avoid it and kick the can down the road and it only means it's going to be bigger and worse to deal with. It didn't go anywhere. I think recognizing people's contributions and specifically like if they are a team player, in what ways did they contribute to the team following through on commitments? I think when we're busy we can casually say, oh, I'll give you that or I'll follow up on this or I'll do it. And you don't. 

Dr. Jen: And that can happen on occasion. But when that's like your M.O. Every day, that does not contribute to a safe environment. And then again mentioned that checking in on a regular basis and not just viewing this as a crisis only thing that we invest in. I love that. 

Dr. Marie: Well, for people who are listening, who really want to get involved or learn more about suicide prevention, what are listed already? Many different resources. But what is a resource or a first step that you would recommend for that person? 

Dr. Jen: Different people will choose different things. But one thing I would ask for, because I just consider it like, let's just get this baseline is commit to the safe messaging standards, right? We can all follow them and we all need to be following them. And as part of that, I let veterinary professionals know. You're a scientist. So lean into your superpowers. As a scientist, we expect our clients often to be able to discern credible evidence. Think about how frustrated we get when Dr. Google comes in. But if we're spreading misinformation, we're doing the same thing. So if that thing, that piece of information, that provocative meme comes in. Stop. The more you want to share it, the more you need to. Not right now. What's the source? Is it a credible source? Look for verification from multiple sources, not just one. 

Dr. Jen: And also know that even when you've done that, it's also important that it's messaged safely. Not just that, it's Accurate, but it has to be safe. And many things that I see floating around don't meet either standard. I'd say a call in for organizations who have shared misinformation or disinformation and or continue to. It's really important that you retract misinformation, replace it with accurate information and do so as visibly, as clearly, as ferociously as the incorrect messaging. And then again, other steps would be things that we've mentioned like taking prevention training like ASK or qpr. And then there are so many good qualified sources around the world that you can get information. American foundation for Suicide Prevention Canada, association for Suicide Prevention, World Health Organization, there's an international association for suicide prevention. 

Dr. Jen: So at this point, the limit really will be making time, maybe not finding time, but saying, I'm going to intentionally direct some time to this issue because it's public health. It's not that it's unique to veterinarians, it's a public health issue. And just think if we can get more people informed throughout any profession and we work together, think about what would be possible. 

Dr. Marie: Mm, I love that. Well, that's why we have World Suicide Prevention Day, so that we have that day carved out to focus on learning and growing everything within this space. So thank you so much for those great resources. And like I said, we'll link to certainly the safe messaging and some of those other resources in the show notes. The last question I'll ask you is the same one I ask all of our guests on the podcast. What does the phrase reviving veterinary medicine mean to you? 

Dr. Jen: Okay, a lot of words come to mind, but when I think about it, again, think about, I think about a strength based approach. So I think it one means acknowledging that society's evolving and changing. Right. And that what worked before, it's okay to reexamine that. So I think about it as renewing and adapting the profession to meet these changing needs and focusing on the sustainability of our ability to serve animals, our clients, our communities, and thinking about, well, being in the profession now and in the future. And then I think a big part of that is creating the systems that support that. Right. Again, it's not an individual effort. It's what all systemic supports go into. 

Dr. Jen: Supporting the people who care for the animals as much as, and as well as we care for the animals and recognizing obviously the essential role that veterinary medicine plays in public health and food security and scientific progress and the human animal bond like it is worth investing that energy in this amazing, incredible, limitless profession. 

Dr. Marie: Beautiful, wonderful way to end off. Thank you so much for your wisdom, expertise and everything that you shared and the time that you've spent with us today. Jen, it was great to connect with you. 

Dr. Jen: My pleasure. Thank you. 

Dr. Marie So that's it for this episode of Reviving Vet Med. I am so grateful to Dr. Jen Brandt for her honesty, clarity and compassion in tackling a topic that's often shrouded in stigma and misinformation. Her insights remind us that suicide is an incredibly complex issue and how we approach it and talk about it matters. If this conversation resonated with you, please share it with a colleague, friend or family member. The more we normalize these discussions and take note of the way we discuss suicide in person and on social media, the more we can collectively create a culture of safety and support. You'll find links in the show notes to the resources mentioned during the conversation today, and I urge you to share those as well. 

Dr. Marie Please subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already done so that you never miss a future episode. You can also follow us on social media @revivingvetmed for more tools, tips and resources to support your well being in veterinary medicine. Special thanks to the team at Podcast Prime Solutions for producing this episode, to Dr. Jen Brandt for being our guest, and most of all, thanks to you for listening. Until next time, take care of yourself. Bye for now.