Addressing Harassment and Transgressive Behavior in Veterinary Practice | Episode 89 | Reviving Vet Med

Psychological safety is essential in veterinary medicine, yet many professionals report experiencing aggression, bullying, discrimination, or sexual harassment at work.

In this episode, Dr. Jolanda Jansen, communications advisor, researcher, and co-owner of St. Anna Advies in the Netherlands, talks about her 2025 study examining harassment and transgressive behavior in Dutch veterinary clinics. Nearly 70 percent of respondents reported experiencing at least one form of misconduct in a single year.

We discuss why younger professionals and support staff are particularly vulnerable, the role clients and colleagues play, and what practical steps leaders and teams can take to create safer, more respectful workplaces. This conversation offers insight and actionable guidance for anyone committed to strengthening culture and wellbeing in veterinary medicine.

Watch the Video Version of this Episode
https://youtu.be/vv8TWIYS_IE

Resources
My Workplace Is Not a Safe Place: Transgressive Behavior and Workplace Harassment in Veterinary Clinics in the Netherlands: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12474498/  

Connect with Jolanda Jansen on social media: 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/anna-advies and https://www.linkedin.com/in/jolandajansen/ 

Instagram: @stannaadvies and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/stanna.advies/ 

Visit Jolanda’s website: www.anna-advies.nl   

Register for our 4-week online program Becoming a Veterinary SuperCommunicator: https://revivingvetmed.kartra.com/page/supercommunicator  

Thank you to our sponsor Hill’s Pet Nutrition
For more information about Hill's products and nutritional philosophy, please visit HillsPet.com or HillsPet.ca.

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Online Resources
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Thank you to Hill’s Pet Nutrition
For more information about Hill's products and nutritional philosophy, please visit HillsPet.ca.

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Transcript

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk - Founded more than 75 years ago with an unwavering commitment to science led pet nutrition, Hills Pet Nutrition is on a mission to help enrich and lengthen the special relationships between people and their pets. Hills is dedicated to pioneering research for dogs and cats using a scientific understanding of their specific needs. As a leading veterinarian. Recommended Pet food brand knowledge is the first ingredient. With nearly 200 veterinarians and PhD nutritionists and food scientists working to develop breakthrough innovations in pet health. Hill's Prescription diet, Therapeutic nutrition, plus our everyday wellness product line Hills Science Diet are sold at vet clinics and pet specialty retailers worldwide. For more information about Hills products and nutritional philosophy, visit their website@hillspet.com or hillspet.ca for Canadian listeners. Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of Reviving Vet Med. 

Dr. Marie – Today we're talking about psychological safety in vet medicine and what it really means when someone says my work is not a safe place. I'm honored to welcome Dr. Jolanda Jansen to the podcast. Jolanda is a communications advisor, inspirational speaker, skills trainer, and co-owner of St. Anna Advies in the Netherlands. She specializes in what she calls human skills in animal health, grounded in her belief that understanding human behavior is essential to protecting animal health. She's the author of several books including Communication and Practice and Tales of Terror, and she recently received the prestigious Anne Wienbas penning a national Dutch Award for her outstanding contribution to animal health and welfare. In this episode, we discuss Jolanda's 2025 study, My Workplace is Not a Safe Transgressive Behavior and Workplace Harassment in Veterinary Clinics in the Netherlands. The findings are sobering. 

Dr. Marie – Nearly 70% of veterinary professionals surveyed reported experiencing aggression, bullying, discrimination, or sexual harassment in just one year. Jolanda and I explore what these numbers mean, why younger professionals and support staff are particularly vulnerable, the role clients and colleagues both play, and what practical steps clinics can take to create safer, healthier workplaces. We also talk about communication, leadership, responsibility, and how we begin shifting from awareness to action. This is an important and timely conversation and I'm so grateful to be sharing it with you. So let's get into my conversation with Dr. Jolanda Jansen. This is the Reviving Vet Med podcast and I'm your host, Dr. Marie Holowaychuk. My mission is to improve the mental health and wellbeing of veterinary professionals around the world. Hi Jolanda. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. It's great to have you today. 

Dr. Jolanda Jansen - Thank you so much for inviting me. 

Dr. Marie – Yeah, we're gonna go ahead and get right into it. I want to talk about your 2025 paper. So this was a recently published paper that you titled, My Workplace is Not a Safe Place. Transgressive Behavior and Workplace Harassment in Veterinary Clinics in the Netherlands. This is such a powerful and confronting title. I think even before readers get into the data, that phrase alone is going to incite a lot of emotions. It might even feel jarring to folks. You talk in the study about the fact that nearly 70% of veterinary professionals reported experiencing at least one form of transgressive behavior within a single year, and that included aggression, bullying, discrimination or sexual harassment. 

Dr. Marie – I'm wondering, when you first saw these results come together, what was your reaction both as a researcher and of course as someone who is deeply invested in the wellbeing within the veterinary profession? 

Dr. Jolanda – Yeah, well, first of all, I think we were so shocked, right? So we knew that these topics were kind of emerging topics, I think in many professions. So we had them in the media. They talked about the lawyers and the teachers and the human healthcare professionals. And we really were kind of curious, okay, how is this in veterinary health care? And also during our training, more and more requests came about, okay, how can we deal with aggressive clients or how can we deal with money issues in veterinary clinics? So we thought, is there actually any research being done on this topic? So then the answer was no. So, okay, let's do this. But we didn't expect this to be this high. So it means that almost, you know, three out of four people working in a veterinary clinic actually have experienced this. 

Dr. Jolanda – So it was really, we were kind of shocked by the severity of this and how much it was not a topic to share or there was so much taboo on it. So yeah, it's just kind of, maybe kind of normal or accepted that this happens in veterinary clinics. And we were so shocked about. Yeah, the extent of this. Yeah, yeah. 

Dr. Marie – It's so interesting when you put a number on it, right. Because I think we've all had bad experiences in the workplace. Vet medicine is no exception to that. And when I look at these descriptions of workplace transgressions, I have definitely experienced some of those things, not all of them, thankfully, but to think about that in the course of a year, just one year, I think about the course of my career, over 20 years having very sporadic experiences. But when you look at within the last year and like you said, three of four veterinary professionals experiencing that, it really puts it into perspective. And like you said, we have this normalization that, well, that's just vet medicine, there's going to be challenging clients, there's going to be, you know, squabbles with team members. It has, I think, become normalized. 

Dr. Marie – And of course, what we want to do is bring attention to this so that we can change that perception of it. You use a very broad and inclusive definition encompassing aggression, bullying, discrimination and sexual harassment. Why was it important for you to define it this way within the research study? 

Dr. Jolanda – Yeah, it was more or less because we looked at other research in other professions. So we really wanted to compare it like that. So on these four say, categories, we have data on a national level and we have data on human healthcare professionals. So we thought, okay, if we use the same themes, the same definitions, then at least we have something to compare. And of course, if you look at it from a researcher point of view, there is overlap. There can be very aggressive clients who can also say something about your appearance or about your gender or about. So then maybe one case could tick multiple boxes there. But I think this was just kind of a. We just wanted to do a pilot and we didn't know about the extent of the information that came out of it. 

Dr. Jolanda – All the examples, all the stress and the trauma that the participants shared with us. And we were, yeah, so surprised. And then of course, at the same time it was like, but we need to do even more research. We should have asked, not only have you experienced this in one year, but we should have asked, how often have you experienced this and what was the effect of this and what were the consequences for the team or for yourself and what next steps did you take? And so we had these research results and were like, oh, now we have maybe answered one question, but now we have 30 more questions we need to answer because of this. So, yeah, I think we are at the start of really taking this topic serious in the veterinary medicine, at least in our country. 

Dr. Jolanda – And I think much more research is needed to further understand these numbers, these themes, these topics. And maybe there are many more ways people feel unsafe in their workplace that we haven't even asked. So this is just a scratch of the surface, I feel. 

Dr. Marie – Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Isn't that the truth? Right. And I guess that's the beauty of pilot research, is you start with one goal in mind and that it uncovers all of these other things that you hadn't even anticipated. And so clearly there's much more work to be done. I want to springboard actually off of something that you just said, which is wondering with this just maybe scratching the surface and are there other ways that individuals feel unsafe in the workplace? You have to wonder if people don't talk about their experiences or maybe don't even report them to their leadership in practice because they don't feel safe to do so. Where do you think psychological safety comes into play in veterinary clinics and in the ways that people respond in the face of some sort of workplace transgression? 

Dr. Jolanda – Yeah, I think there are two elements to this. So one is, we didn't ask about how safe does this make you feel? Right. So a client can become very angry or maybe even aggressive, but that doesn't mean that everyone will perceive that as an unsafe situation. So I think there is always this discussion about what is unsafe or not the same, let's say sexual harassment or discrimination. And some say, oh, I like this, say male attention. And the other one says, oh, for me, that's already a boundary being crossed. So I think that is one element. The other element is, do we talk about this in clinics about what we feel is appropriate or not appropriate? What happens makes us feel unsafe or not unsafe. And of course, there's a difference between persons and between your previous experiences and between your own personal situations. 

Dr. Jolanda – But I think at least in many clinics we've been to, and also what we see in the reports and all the comments based on this survey or in this survey, a lot of participants really shared that I can't complain. They feel like it's complaining about this towards their management or towards their colleagues. And I can't complain because we all have to deal with this. It's kind of normal in our clinic. So if I start complaining about this, I risk losing my job or I risk accepting the fact that this is my job. And I don't want to be confronted with this myself, knowing that I'm in an unsafe job. So. Because I really love this job. But I think this is really an issue. 

Dr. Jolanda – I think in many clinics that we have accepted that this is part of the job, but it's not because we don't talk about it, but it's in many clinics it's really kind of if you can't stand deed, stay out of the kitchen id and that makes it very difficult to talk about it. If you are suffering whatever form of this, say, uncivil behavior you encounter, and the fact that in the past maybe people didn't talk about it doesn't mean that in the past this didn't happen. And I think that's a big issue that we see in many clinics. Like in the past, they. This was not an issue in the past. Of course it was an issue in the past, but nobody talks about it. So. 

Dr. Jolanda – And now we're starting to open up these discussions, and now suddenly we see the severity of this in clinics. And I think that's something we all need to acknowledge. 

Dr. Marie – You bring up so many great points, and I feel like the mental health advocate in me has to. I. I can't help but see the analogy between this and mental health conversations. You know, there's this pathology or normalization of pathology in veterinary medicine in that we're all just going to experience burnout. Burnout is inevitable. Everybody struggles in vet med. Vet med is stressful. That's just the way it is. And you got to just pull up your bootstraps and keeping on. And I feel like this is being lumped into that category whereby we're having these experiences. And for sure, we had these experiences years ago. There has been, I think, a little bit of a shift in society and society in general, becoming a little more uncivil or unfortunately rude over the last several years. And we've got research to prove that. 

Dr. Marie – But there's always been elements of inappropriate behavior within the workplace, whether it's a veterinarian that yells at a team member or a surgeon that, you know, throws an instrument across the room or whatever it is that's been around forever. And I think what you said is really accurate and that we've always just normalized it. This is a part of working in veterinary practice. And therefore, when you do speak up, you risk going against the culture of what has always been acceptable or really having to do the uncomfortable work of addressing those behaviors. And it is challenging because everybody is different. Like you said, we all have different boundaries. We all have different perceptions of what is okay and what is not okay. A lot of that stems from our previous experiences and our trauma. Right. 

Dr. Marie – If we've experienced trauma in whatever that might be, a previous relationship or our childhood or what have you, that is going to shape our reactions to some of these behaviors in the workplace as well. So it's very nuanced, it's very complex, it's very layered. And I'm so glad that we're opening up the conversation to talk about this more. 

Dr. Jolanda –Yeah. And I think also to add is that this was also the first time that we also investigated what we call veterinary professionals in a broad sense. So also the nurses and technicians and receptionists and other people working in a veterinary clinic. And I think that is really an underestimated and undervalued group also. So more research is being done on mental health issues and stress factors for veterinarians, but not necessarily for this say support staff group together. And those results were even more shocking that even they really experience even more of this. They are really in the front line. They are this, in this first line of defense. 

Dr. Jolanda – Maybe also or meaning also that veterinarians sometimes don't even know what is happening there at the front desk because they get the polite clients and they get, you know, the nice conversation but they didn't know what happened before that. So I think that's also an eye opener of this research that as a team you struggle with much more than just you as an individual. 

Dr. Marie – Yeah, I think that can't be overstated. And I, you know, having grown up in vet medicine, I have done all the jobs in the hospital from the custodial work to the client callbacks, working at the front desk, et cetera. And I always say to folks, I think the hardest job in the hospital is the client facing job that our reception or client care team does. And I love that you included all members of the team in this research. And that brings me to one of the questions I wanted to ask you, which is that some of your findings did reveal, as you said, that veterinary support staff reported more aggression than veterinarians. And I'm wondering from your perspective, what structural or cultural factors do you think might have contributed to this? 

Dr. Marie – And of course the biggest question to follow up on that is what can we do to support our front desk team members and our nursing team? 

Dr. Jolanda – I think, oh, there's so many factors, there's so many reasons. Of course they are the first contact. So they're also the first who kind of have to disappoint clients. So if I have to wait long for an appointment or I have to pay, and I have to pay much more than was anticipated. So of course they have more contact in general and often maybe also disappoint more often. So deal with emotions more often. The other thing is why would it be easier to be aggressive to say a receptionist compared to a veterinarian? 

Dr. Jolanda – And of course there is this, I don't know if this hierarchy or power balance where as a client I do not really depend on the service of a receptionist, so I can be nasty to her or him, but if I'm being very nasty to the veterinarian, of course they still need to take care of my animals. So there is more I think dependency in the, in that relation where the veterinarian than there is with a receptionist also meaning that as a receptionist you also don't have the, say, the power to dismiss a client where maybe the veterinarian or the owner of a clinic, specifically in small clinics, of course, they do have that power to dismiss a client. So I think they're also, of course, that creates already a difference in hierarchy, in teams. 

Dr. Jolanda – What we also see is the way clients are being taught how to behave in a clinic. So in many clinics, you can be very aggressive to a receptionist, but it will never have consequences. Well, if you would be aggressive to the veterinarian, then it would have consequences. You are not being a client anymore or you will be dismissed as a client. And that is really frustrating for many, I think, front desk staff, or in general, many support staff, that, you know, there is never a consequence for bad behavior and that gives such a, if you talk about unsafety, such an unsafe feeling. So the client always gets away with it because it's our clients. We don't want to lose this client, the client base for our service. So we have to just accept whatever this client does. 

Dr. Jolanda – And I'm thinking, no, there really is a limit there. You have to be able to trust your colleagues, to trust your supervisors, to trust your practice managers or the practice owners to protect you from these bad clients in this case, but also bad colleagues. And that you can trust that there is always a consequence for those when they behave bad. And that's the problem. Often there is no consequence. So you also stop reporting. I think so. Once I reported an angry client and then it was like, no, this was just emotions and we can accept this. And he paid the bill and yeah. And the next time. Oh, you then report it. And the next time. And the next time, if there is never a consequence, so at least never a consequence for the client, maybe there is a consequence for you. 

Dr. Jolanda – Like saying, hey, are you suitable for this job as a receptionist? Because you complain all the time about these clients. So I think that it is really sad that we don't see that as a factor in clinics. 

Dr. Marie – Absolutely. I think, you know, you raise a very important point, which is that this accountability piece is so important. Right. Everybody has to be accountable for their behaviors, and there have to be consequences for inappropriate behaviors in the workplace. As somebody who does a lot of leadership training and communication training, that is absolutely where it breaks down, right? Where you have a team member that speaks up and then nothing happens. And not only does it feel unsafe, and not only does that person who reported it feel undervalued and underappreciated, but it also creates this element of toxicity in the workplace where it's now interpreted that this behavior is okay, that anybody can just treat anybody however they want and that there won't be consequences for that. And then that just spirals, can spiral out of control. 

Dr. Marie – You know, you bring up this important piece with the clients and I know that one of the most striking findings that I found is in your research was that clients were the primary source of aggression and bullying in general, overall aggression and bullying. But discrimination was more internal. So there's these differences and I'm wondering what your interpretation of that was. Why is there this difference between external clients and internal teams? And what does that tell us about where we need to intervene or where leaders need to do better? 

Dr. Jolanda – Well, in general, we have to state that in, at least in the Netherlands, in our little small country, our workplaces are not so diverse. So when you talk about discrimination, it's often discrimination based on gender. And then specifically also what the participants reported was more discrimination on say career perspective. So pregnancy or disease related discrimination. And that is something I think from a client perspective, you don't really have a choice of who's treating your animal or not. There was a little bit of discrimination, for example, within the livestock profession that some farmers would say, you know, I want a real man to help me with my calf. You are just a woman and you can't do this, you are not strong enough. 

Dr. Jolanda – But in general, I think if we specifically look at companion animal practices, I think at this moment 80% is now also female, of veterinarians and of support staff even more probably. So we kind of have a feminine workplace. So most discrimination was more not from clients to veterinary professionals, but more within the team. And aggression. I think in general people want to be in a team, want to be nice. If people really start to be very aggressive or bullying, then maybe that's easier noticed than just the clients and the individual staff member. So I don't really have a full explanation for that difference, but I think these could be one of the reasons for this. 

Dr. Marie – Yeah, it makes sense. A lot of the internal differences that individuals might discriminate against, for example, disclosed mental health challenges or disclosed pregnancy or neurodivergence or whatever it might be, those might be then discriminated against internally. And like you said, the more aggression, bullying, et cetera, that the clients can do that and then they can walk away versus when that happens within the team, not that it doesn't happen, but when it happens, hopefully there is a little bit more accountability for that and it doesn't last as long or become tolerated and again, I think this really highlights the fact that we want, as leaders, those who are listening, who are leaders, we want our team members to be able to come to us and tell us when these things are happening and we have to do something in response. 

Dr. Marie –We can't just chalk it up to a, well, that was just one time and hopefully it won't happen again or toughen up. And that's just don't let it bug you so much. Don't be so sensitive. That's something that I'm often told when. 

Dr. Jolanda – A lot of say, leaders within veterinary practice. And so we also had the cases where say the practice owner was a white male, 60 plus person with of course many years of experience as a vet. And he just said, you know, sexual harassment, it was never an issue, I never have experienced it. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen to the 25 year old, very beautiful looking young receptionist who is just sitting there at the front desk. So the fact that it doesn't happen to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen in your practice. And I think that is something we really have to acknowledge that even if they don't talk about it, even if you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. And as a practice leader you really should be aware of that. 

Dr. Marie –Yeah, absolutely. And I think it takes a lot of courage to step forward and share something like that might have happened. And so the last thing that we want to do is question the person who's coming to us. We always believe them and reassure them that's not okay and that we're going to do something about it. At the very least acknowledging that if that was their experience, it's not okay. Like that shouldn't be what's happening. Regardless of whether or not you have a lot of control to prevent that from happening again. Maybe this client will never come back, maybe you don't have a lot of leverage there. But at least acknowledging and honoring that that wasn't okay, what they experienced and that you would like to make sure that they do feel safe in their workplace. 

Dr. Marie – If today's conversation has you thinking about how you communicate with clients or within your team, I've got something for you. Registration is now open for Becoming a Veterinary Super Communicator. Our new four week interactive six hour race approved program designed to help you navigate difficult conversations with more confidence and clarity. We'll cover everything from managing emotional reactions to handling conflict and building stronger relationships at work. The program starts in mid-May and registration is open now until May 8, 2026. You can learn more and register at RevivingVetMed.com/communicate. You mentioned in the research study as well that there was an age difference in some of the experiences. So veterinary professionals who were in the younger cohort, 21 to 30 years of age, reported significantly more experiences of aggression, bullying, and even sexual harassment compared to the other age groups. 

Dr. Marie – I'm curious as to what your thoughts are and of course, how we can better protect and mentor those younger professionals so that they don't take this to just be normal behavior in the workplace. 

Dr. Jolanda – Yeah, I think in general, when you're just finished, you know, school and it's just your first years of experience in your profession, then of course you kind of feel insecure about everything. And that makes you an easy, maybe an easy victim. Right. So especially for clients who are high in their emotions or high in theirs, I don't know, in their extrovertedness or maybe more demanding, that it's very difficult to step up to these clients. And I think, as I said before, it's also about this power balances. Right. So as a young starting vet or a vet nurse, you don't maybe have the power or the authority to say to the clients, okay, there's the door, and I'm not going to help you as a vet or as a practice owner, you may have more authority in that. 

Dr. Jolanda – So I think there is this difference. I think there is also a difference in expectations. So clients have different expectations from younger people maybe than from older people, or have different expectations from the veterinary clinic in general. And then there is this issue of communication. When it's about expectations, we often are also not trained in how we communicate those expectations. So a good example is that, you know, the vet says in the morning, as soon as I have the lab results, I call you right away. I call you as soon as possible. And then the client is just waiting for the phone call. And then the client calls, I don't know, before lunchtime, and then the receptionist says, well, the results are not there yet. The vet will call you as soon as possible.

Dr. Jolanda – And then the client calls at the end of the day, and then the vet at the end of the day at 10 o' clock had an emergency shift, you know, had all these issues and things. Well, at 10 o' clock at night, I can't call the clients anymore. Well, let's do it tomorrow morning. Tomorrow morning was very busy. So again, tomorrow morning, you know, the client calls and thinks, where are these lab results? And then of course the client becomes kind of angry and there are these expectations that have not been met. And then again the question is, who is in the front line. There was the first person to contact. It's not the vet who forgot to call, it's often the receptionist or maybe a younger vet who has to bring bad news to the client that there is still no answer. 

Dr. Jolanda – And I think that makes it frustrating that you are dependent on your team members to keep your promise towards the clients. And I think that's where a lot of things go wrong as well. And that is something we can do ourselves. So sometimes we do make it ourselves very difficult to set expectations that we know beforehand we cannot meet. And then beforehand you can already expect the client to become angry. So I think there is much we can do also in that aspect to set good expectations for clients. 

Dr. Marie – Communication is so important. And yeah, anger so often stems from unmet expectations or disappointment, frustration, whatever it is. And as you said, it's often the front desk team that has it taken out on them. And then when we are younger and less experienced or we feel more insecure, we just haven't equipped ourselves with those skills yet. We don't know how to respond, we don't know what to say. We don't feel confident to set a boundary or because of those power differentials, we truly don't believe that we can set a boundary. I know that you have a lot of training, background training and interest in communication and you have developed tools like the veterinary dialogue trainer. You mentioned these communication skills. How do you see those intersecting with, preventing or de-escalating these transgressive behaviors? 

Dr. Jolanda – In practice, of course you deal with emotions. It's part of your job. Right. Often when clients come in, they're not necessarily happy. You know, it's always because there is an animal that is in need. So there are always emotions and we have to anticipate that. And it really is such a difference whether people are upset at the situation or whether they are upset about you. So you have to understand that dealing with these emotions is part of your job and you can train yourself on that. 

Dr. Jolanda – And then so for example, if I call to a clinic and I say, okay, my dog has an ear infection and I need antibiotics now if my first response is I can't give you antibiotics because that is the protocol and we need to see him first and we need to check him up first and then we can give you the medicines, then as a client, of course I get upset. You know why protocol you know, I have a sick animal here, I have an animal in need. You know, I want to have a solution and I want to have it right away. Yes, but we can't because it's protocol. I don't care about your protocol. So that's how things can easily escalate. Well, if at the other side, we make it relevant for them, if we can say, oh, I'm sorry to hear. 

Dr. Jolanda – Good that you noticed. We both want the best for Fluffy. Ear infection is very. It's a nasty thing. And this is the second time, you know, in two years or whatever, he has this ear infection. We both know that if we put medicine into a damaged ear, you know, we're going to wear some things. So you don't want that. We don't want that. So the best for Fluffy is to make an appointment. Then, of course, still a client can be frustrated. I don't want to make an appointment. And then again, you can say, I understand your frustration. I understand, of course, this is not what you want at this moment in time. It's, of course, never a good time for these things, but we both want the best for Fluffy. 

Dr. Jolanda – So my advice still is, please come in so we can help Fluffy the best way possible. Shall we make an appointment? Or I can make a special place for you this afternoon. Then you really get a different approach. And I think at this moment in time, when you talk about communication skills training, we are often not trained. So in many vet schools, this is not part of the curriculum for veterinary professionals, so, say the support staff. It's not a part of the curriculum. Yes, you learn how to deliver bad news. Yes, you learn how to take a good anamnesis or do a triage, but you don't learn how to deal with emotions. So what we see in practice is that when a client becomes upset, the first response is a defense. 

Dr. Jolanda – So when the client is at the front desk and needs to pay a very large bill and the client is at that time saying, wow, that hurts, immediately starts defending. Yes, we really did a lot of work and yes, our costs have increased and yes, I don't really get paid that much. And did you know how long we worked for this? And, you know, you should have come three weeks before because now the problem really worsens and so we immediately start defending. But that is not what the client wants to hear. You know, the client just wants to hear, you know, thank you for taking so good care of Fluffy. Fluffy, you are so lucky with this person as your owner. You have this very golden house there. It is good. 

Dr. Jolanda –You know, you have such a good owner who takes such good care of you. That is what you want to hear. You don't want to hear the defense. And I think that is something you can prepare yourself for. The same as the expectation management. Never say, you know the Fed will be there right away. Just say the Fed will call you at the end of the, I don't know, on Friday afternoon, before 9 o' clock in the evening, the vet will call you because otherwise you start already disappointing people and because you have set the wrong expectations there. So there is so much more you can do to de-escalate or to prevent these situations from happening. And I think communication there is indeed key. 

Dr. Marie – Yeah, so many great suggestions. It sounds like empathy is that real key piece with clients when you see that they're getting upset or frustrated to recognize, yeah, you've been waiting a long time or yeah, it was a lot of money that you spent and how lucky Fluffy is to have you. All of these different things to really connect with their experience rather than making it about you. And I am all about. I'm having a hard time finding the phrase right now, but there's this notion that, you know, you want to set the bar low in terms of expectations so that when you. 

Dr. Jolanda – And the promise and the promise over deliver. 

Dr. Marie – Is it under promise over deliver? Yeah. So, you know, the vet will probably call you at, hopefully before 9 o' clock on Friday and then if the vet is able to call by noon on Friday, then this is a real win for the team. So, yeah, being very realistic and giving a lot of buffer windows as far as communication goes and other things is really key to prevent the emotions from coming up. Because like you said, it's. Yeah, we can. We're trained to take a good history and maybe give a good explanation and signpost our, you know, different steps within our physical exam and so on. But when emotions get elevated, that is where I think our training is lacking. And so I'm glad that there's the veterinary dialogue trainer and other training that are out there for team members to take part in. 

Dr. Marie – There was an interesting point and we alluded to this at the beginning of our conversation in terms of the study demonstrating that for veterinary professionals in the Netherlands, there were higher rates of aggression and bullying compared to their counterparts in human healthcare. And I'm wondering what you think is the reason for that difference. What makes that medicine uniquely vulnerable when it comes to aggression and bullying? 

Dr. Jolanda – I think there. Well, we didn't investigate. So of course this is kind of an educated guess or. But there. So when it is about expectations, in veterinary medicine, there is money involved. In human health care, there is not. Or of course there is money involved, but that is all by your Social Security and insurance payments. And so you, at least in our country, you don't really get the bills of your doctor, so you don't know how much the hospital admission costs you or costs your insurance. Luckily we have those systems here in the Netherlands. But that means that when your dog is. Is ministered to the hospital and you get the bills, then suddenly you're very surprised. How much is this for just a dog? 

Dr. Jolanda – So I think there is a difference in what clients expect or know or understand or what knowledge they have about the cost of veterinary care in general. And of course that can lead to difficult situations. You really love your dog, you just don't have the money. And there is this veterinarian in between who can cure your dog or can help your dog or your cats or your rabbits that you got free from, I don't know, someone or you found it on the streets and now suddenly you have to pay for that. So of course that is different. I think, compared to human health care. The other part is the. Is indeed the training and the training on the emotions. I think now in health care there is more training on dealing with disappointment, dealing with difficult situations, dealing with what we call contextualized care. 

Dr. Jolanda – So what care is appropriate. And as I said before, in veterinary education, there is not so much attention to that. So I think again, we sometimes create all sorts of problems ourselves by the way we communicate to clients. And that is, I think, maybe in healthcare already addressed, or maybe not as much as we want to, but at least it's addressed more compared to veterinary healthcare. 

Dr. Marie – Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. You know, I think this is a great first step in bringing attention to these issues. I'm wondering, since publishing the research, have you seen any shifts in awareness or policy or dialogue in the Netherlands? And if so, does any of that give you hope that meaningful change is possible? 

Dr. Jolanda –Yes, we are very hopeful. Yes. No, no. It really sparked something in our profession, I think on a European level. Even so, more and more initiatives have started or are in the process of starting to support mental health and wellbeing, and not only of vets, but also of all the support staff. So at this moment we have an initiative called Purple Heart, where across all, you know, organizations, veterinary organizations in the Netherlands, they have signed a manifesto where they promised, they made a promise to Improve the health and wellbeing of veterinary professionals. About more than 30 veterinary organizations have signed that manifesto. So I think that is really a first step in acknowledging that this is an issue that we as a profession, as an industry, we have to acknowledge and cooperate with each other to make change happen. 

Dr. Jolanda – And at the same time we also now have this, say, veterinary hotline where it's kind of a support line. So if you feel you need to talk to someone for whatever reason, could be happy reasons, could be sad reasons, there is this support line where veterinary people with a veterinary background are anonymously listening to you and making it possible to give that support and to at least share that you're not alone. So the fact that more and more people are now sharing this, are more open towards what they have experienced in mental health issues, or when it's about the neurodiversity, or when it's about the things they have done within their clinics to deal with these issues, I think we can really learn from that. So it's really nice to see more research being done on this topic. 

Dr. Jolanda – So yeah, it really sparked, I think it's a general theme in society, but this really helped also to create those conversations within a veterinary profession. Yeah, so much is happening at this moment, doesn't it? At least I hope it will also result in better workplace safety, better mental health. So it's always putting your money where your mouth is. There are good intentions, but I think we all are responsible for our own behavior in our own clinics, in our own situations. So that's where it starts. Give a good example, talk about it within your clinics. So yeah, I hope it will drive change in one way or another. The first signs are there, but, well,. 

Dr. Marie – Those are some beautiful initiatives and springboarding off of that. If there's a practice owner listening who wants to make sure that they have a safe workplace, what are one or two very practical, tangible things that they could do to protect their team members in situations like these? 

Dr. Jolanda – Yeah. So first ask so you can say, okay, there's this research from the Netherlands, this little crazy country, but how is this in our clinic? So have this open conversation with your team members. How is this in our clinic? Then second, I think also what is appropriate behavior? What do we accept as a team or not? And what would be the next steps if you experience this kind of behavior, could be from colleagues, could be from clients, but what would be your next steps in a safe and in an open way? Discussing. If you have ever experienced this, then this is what you should do. And also understand that there are consequences for those, say, for the client who is being incivile to you, that you know, that you are supported, that your team has your back in these kind of situations. 

Dr. Jolanda – And then of course, the final thing is training. So to prevent those expectations, you know, to have that under promise, over delivered, to make sure you know, as a team, how to deal with the demanding client who is not yet being aggressive, but he just doesn't get what he wants or she wants. And then how do we deal with that as a clinic? Because if I say to the client, you're, I will not give you antibiotics without, you know, a proper diagnosis. And. But then my next colleague is saying, oh, I can give you that, you know, don't listen to her. I will make an exception for you, of course, then you create your own problems. And I think that is something. 

Dr. Jolanda – Make good agreements as a team on what your policies are and how you respond in an empathetic way to clients who ask you things that you can't deliver. And training, of course, is there and isn't an important thing that could help you feel more safe in these situations. That was so much fun. 

Dr. Marie – I love it. It's, it's wonderful advice. And I want to finish with just one last question that we ask every one of our guests on the podcast. What does the phrase reviving veterinary medicine mean to you? 

Dr. Jolanda – Oh, it means so much because it means that there is such a beautiful profession with so many opportunities. And I think for me it means that it's kind of our slogan. You know, if you want to keep animals healthy, there is only one species you need to know most about, and that is a human being. So reviving is also, yes, you know, invest in your veterinary technical skills, but please also invest in your, say, human skills, because you really need human skills to thrive as a veterinary professional in all aspects. So, yeah, that's, I think, more or less what I think of him. I think about reviving, it's like so much more we can do. We can be so much more effective if we invest in those skills as well. 

Dr. Marie – Yeah, a very hopeful and positive way to look at it. Well, thank you so much, Jolanda. This has been such an interesting conversation. Your research is so important and clearly is already making an impact on the profession and in Europe and I'm sure beyond as well. So I can't thank you enough for taking the time to have this conversation with me. 

Dr. Jolanda – Thank you so much for your time and for listening. Thank you. 

Dr. Marie – Thank you so much. So that's it. For this episode of Reviving Vet Med. I hope today's discussion encourages you to reflect on your own workplace culture, where safety is strong, where it may be weak, and what small steps could make a meaningful difference. If you found this episode valuable, please rate, review and share the podcast. It truly helps us bring these conversations to more members of our profession. You can learn more about Dr. Jolanda Jansen and her work through the links in the show notes. I also invite you to visit RevivingVetMed.com resources for free tools, handouts, and guided practices designed to support communication, wellbeing and healthier team dynamics. A sincere thank you to Dr. Jolanda Jansen for her leadership and advocacy to Podcast Prime Solutions for producing this episode, and to you for being willing to engage in these important conversations. 

Dr. Marie - Until next time, take good care of yourself. Bye for now..