Reviving Vet Med
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Reviving Vet Med
The Healing Power of Digital Storytelling | Episode 98 | Reviving Vet Med
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Every veterinary professional carries stories from their journey; moments of challenge, uncertainty, compassion, and growth. Yet we rarely pause to reflect on those stories and the meaning they hold. Digital storytelling offers a powerful way to process our experiences, strengthen resilience, and reconnect with the values that brought us to veterinary medicine.
Today, I’m joined by Angie Turner, a veterinary technician with more than 30 years of experience, including over two decades as a Technical Instructor in veterinary pathology at the Western College of Veterinary Medicine. Angie is also the founder of SOS Legacies, where she helps individuals preserve and share their life stories through writing, audio, and digital storytelling. After recognizing the potential for these tools to support veterinary students, Angie created Resilient by Design: Digital Storytelling for Resilience in Vet Med, an elective designed to help learners reflect on their experiences and build resilience.
In this episode, we discuss what digital storytelling is, why storytelling has become an important tool in human healthcare education, and how it can help veterinary professionals make meaning from the experiences that shape their careers. Angie shares what she has learned from guiding students through this process, how storytelling can foster connection and self-awareness, and why every veterinary professional has a story worth telling.
Watch the Video Version of this Episode
https://youtu.be/al_uG4chUew
Resources
Follow Angie Turner on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/angela-turner-sos-legacies/
Visit Angie’s website: https://www.soslegacies.com/
Watch Marie’s digital story about mistakes: https://youtu.be/FdnuClAZgnc?si=Fg9DZg-qtRxhH84d
Watch Sarah’s digital story about euthanasia: https://youtu.be/fCXQAvuS1L0
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For more information about Hill's products and nutritional philosophy, please visit HillsPet.com or HillsPet.ca.
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Dr. Marie Holowaychuk - Founded more than 75 years ago with an unwavering commitment to science led pet nutrition, Hill's Pet Nutrition is on a mission to help enrich and lengthen the special relationships between people and their pets. Hill's is dedicated to pioneering research for dogs and cats using a scientific understanding of their specific needs as a leading veterinarian. Recommended Pet food brand knowledge is the first ingredient with nearly 200 veterinarians, the PhD nutritionists and food scientists working to develop breakthrough innovations in pet health. Hill's Prescription Diet, Therapeutic Nutrition, plus our everyday wellness product line Hill's Science Diet are sold at vet clinics and pet specialty retailers worldwide. For more information about Hill's products and nutritional philosophy, visit their website at hillspet.com or hillspet.ca for Canadian listeners. Welcome to another episode of Reviving Vet Med. Every veterinary professional has stories that shape who they are. Some are joyful and inspiring others reflect challenge or loss. Yet we rarely pause to make meaning of these experiences. My guest today is Angie Turner, who has spent more than 30 years as a veterinary technician, including over two decades as a technical instructor in Veterinary pathology at the Western College of Veterinary Medicine. Outside of Vet Med, Angie is the founder of SOS Legacies, where she helps people capture and preserve their life stories through writing, audio and digital storytelling work she's brought into vet education through an elective called Resilient by Design Digital Storytelling for Resilience in Vet Med.
Dr. Marie - I'm especially excited for this conversation because Angie invited me to create my own digital story and as a WCVM grad myself, it's been inspiring to see this work introduced at the college where I trained. In this conversation we discuss what digital storytelling is, why it's such a meaningful way to process our experiences, and how sharing our stories can strengthen resilience, connection and professional identity. Angie also shares what she's learned from introducing this work to students, and why she believes every veterinary professional has a story worth telling. Here's my conversation with Angie Turner. This is the Reviving Vet Med podcast and I'm your host, Dr. Marie Holowaychuk. My mission is to improve the mental health and wellbeing of veterinary professionals around the world.
Dr. Marie - All right Angie, I'm going to dive right into it with our first question and that is what exactly is digital storytelling? How is it different from simply telling somebody about an experience or writing in a journal?
Angie - Well, it can include writing in a journal or telling someone your experience. Digital storytelling is a facilitated process where we craft a two to five minute video. It combines your voice, your story, a meaningful story, hopefully, and then you have photos, videos and music going with it. So generally journaling and telling someone your story is part of the four step process, but I find that it's more the facilitated combination of all four of the steps that kind of make this such a cathartic process. So it becomes like a processing tool.
Dr. Marie - Oh, I can't wait to dig more into that because I think that's something that we feel very challenged with in vet medicine, of course, is processing and integrating our experiences. So you have of course a long history in veterinary medicine. You spent decades in vet medicine and then more recently moved into legacy work and storytelling. What led you to realize that these two very different worlds belonged together?
Angie - We start talking about decades, I start feeling really old. All of a sudden I realized, yes, I have been doing this a very long time. I guess it wasn't necessarily my first choice as to what I was going to offer for a workshop for this. I was having a coffee chat with my mentor and we were just chit chatting about my next level of facilitator training. And my first reaction as far as who would I want to offer a workshop for was legacy people. That just seemed like kind of the only option. And then we just started chatting about my job and, you know, the issues that are facing Vet Med and you know, who do I think could really benefit from telling these kind of stories and processing this stuff and it was like, you know, obviously a coach because he's like leading me to this very specific thing here. And of course, yes. So we decided, well, resilience is what these guys need, right? So we thought, okay, why not try to use digital storytelling for resilience in vet Med? So it was, you know, then I was like a dog with a bone with that idea and just kind of went to town with it.
Dr. Marie - So I love that was the moment that you really thought, hey, this could help veterinary professionals. Which is just fantastic because I think we know a lot about the issues. Like you said, there are certainly many different statistics and challenges that we experience and yet we don't talk as openly about things that can be helpful. And this is a very non-traditional way of thinking about things that can be helpful. And I'm excited to dive into that a little bit more. I want to back up a little bit because you approached me about creating a digital story which was new to me. It's not something I had done before. It's not even something that I was aware of. And I'll admit that I wasn't entirely sure what to expect.
Dr. Marie - The moment that you mentioned that it was for this class on resilience for veterinary students. I was like, okay, whatever this is, I'm in. This is so important to me. I'm so passionate about this. I'll figure it out. Along the way. I'm wondering what you have observed in veterinary professionals who take the time to tell their own stories. What has that process been like for them? And maybe what has surprised you about that process?
Angie - Well, I mean, you were not uncommon in the idea that you didn't know what to think about this whole idea. And I wasn't honestly sure in the beginning. I was like, okay, am I going to be able to convince any practicing vets to share their stories? But like you said, as soon as I appealed to the whole, let's help the next generation, all of a sudden it was like, okay, let's do it. And, you know, that's the amazing thing about vets, right? They just want to help all the time. And so I started recruiting with prompts, that type of thing, to get people start thinking about their stories. And honestly, I think what I found is that not so much the writing of the stories themselves, but I think that most of the practicing vets had trouble with while they're writing their story, they're having to process the story. And this is the first time most of them had ever tried to put their thoughts and feelings of, you know, what happened and how it changed them on paper. And I think that was very surprising for them to kind of think about, okay, this is difficult for me for the first time, having to do this, so. But then they found the importance of it exactly in that same process.
Dr. Marie - Yeah, it's so interesting. I mean, you and I have talked about this a lot, right? Folks in veterinary medicine, we are big feelers. We're very compassionate when it comes to our patients, but we feel a little bit more challenged when processing some of these events or stories with ourselves. And I think we are so invested in helping others and getting the job done that we don't ever allow ourselves or we don't often allow ourselves time to slow down and stop and reflect and think about some of the very challenging experiences that many of us have. And that brings me to. It was something that really surprised me, I guess, when I first started looking into this space, thanks to you, which is that human medicine has embraced narrative medicine and digital storytelling for years. This is something that they have found great benefit in. And I feel like in vet medicine, we're a little bit behind, but we're getting there. Why do you think that storytelling has become such an important educational and wellbeing tool for human healthcare? Based on what you've seen.
Angie - I think it's institutional pressure, you know, that's my understanding is that in human medicine they're kind of forced to push into finding, you know, some way to help out with, you know, this kind of decreasing the erosion of physician empathy, you know, or patient empathy, burnout, like, I don't know, secondary trauma, that type of thing. And so when you're pushed into that, then it was, okay, let's try to find something with some evidence behind it.
Dr. Marie - Right.
Angie - And that is one thing, that narrative medicine and reflective writing does have evidence behind it so that it will help restoring like a sense of meaning or a way of processing grief. So I think that's probably why they started working with that to start with.
Dr. Marie - Yeah. So just like veterinary medicine, human medicine wants to be very evidence based as well. So they're looking for interventions that they know have some evidence behind them. And it sounds like narrative medicine or you know, journaling. It's really, these are strategies that folks have used in other areas to process and integrate traumatic or challenging situations that have happened. What do you think veterinary medicine has learned or can learn from the experience of digital storytelling in human medicine?
Angie - So much? I mean, I think that vets are probably dealing with more like euthanasia and compassion fatigue, even more so than in human medicine. And so I feel like we should be proactively adopting, you know, narrative medicine as part of their training to kind of push against that cultural resistance that we have to self-reflection. I guess I think we really need to actually live well, instead of just talking about it.
Dr. Marie - Yeah, isn't that the truth, eh? Story of my life. Trying to walk the walk rather than talk the talk. Yeah. So what I'm really hearing you say is that you see this as a great tool for us to get in front of the challenges that we're seeing. And especially with individuals that aren't used to talking about their experiences or to sitting in the place of a person needing help or a person needing to talk. That this is a great way to facilitate that. And you mentioned the educational space. And I think this is a great segue into my question about the elective that you designed so you're now teaching. You finished, you wrapped it up this year, the elective resilient by design. And of course you offered this elective at the Western College of Veterinary Medicine in Saskatoon, which is where I went to vet school. And I'm wondering if you can tell us about this course and what students did, who participated in was great.
Angie - It was my first time and honestly I was really nervous about it because I thought, okay, how am I going to get these people to be vulnerable and open up type of thing? So I created a one credit, it's a 12 hour, third year elective and I take them through this four step process. So it's finding, telling, crafting and then sharing their personal story. So it's about a meaningful moment in their life, typically a challenge that they faced of some type of. And so we start by discussing resilience, professional identity and the impact of story on our brains. The why story kind of thing to start with. And then they take some prompts and they start writing their own, typically a resilience story, but not necessarily. And we talked about how to edit their story.
Angie - Well, both for length because you know, once people start going then it's. So we have to, we want to, we have to kind of focus it in and then we want to show them how to make it more impactful. And so then they narrate the story into a digital editing software and they gather their personal and stock photos and videos and stuff like that to help share their story. And then we move into the crafting phase. So this is where I get to kind of geek out. It's where we start working together in the online editing software. So we show them how to use the software which, I mean for this kind of group it's super easy for them to adapt to this. Right. I mean, you know, they're doing the TikTok and what have you.
Angie - So it's nothing for them to work with the editing software, that's for sure. And then on the last day we have an in person screening of their stories and then we discussed afterwards. And so this was the first time doing this. And so again I wasn't quite sure what to expect but you know, there's like smiles and tears and it was a really cool experience. So I mean overall, like the students said that they felt less alone in their struggles after watching each other's stories because they hadn't known any of these things about the other participants in the class. Right. And so honestly I thought it was interesting if they actually said that they would consider in the future trying to use story to process more often.
Dr. Marie - I love that. And okay, I have so many questions to follow up on this and thank you for taking us through what that experience was like and how you broke that down for them. I'm wondering when you talk to them about professional Identity and storytelling and using storytelling to process things. What exactly is it about storytelling that is so helpful, slash therapeutic, slash integrative for people who are experiencing these life changing or challenging circumstances in their lives?
Angie - Honestly, I think it's. There's so many different parts to it. Like I said, you're starting by focusing on your story, right? So self-reflection alone is huge. Putting your thoughts into writing is the next step where again, you're starting to edit your story as you're writing it. And so you're starting to think about what are the important parts of this, what was it that was that triggered me? Or you know, what did I get out of this? Or you know, what was the exact situation. So you're processing as you're writing your story again. Then you start looking at images and you start pulling stuff together. And each time that you're trying to find images to go with your story, it's another layer of processing. So you're sitting here thinking, this is how I felt. How do I find it?
Angie - What image is it that gets across this feeling that I felt? I want them to understand how I felt. And so again, another layer of processing. And then, I mean, then once you start, you narrate your story. So you're also, as you're thinking through it, you're trying to make sure that you're having more impact as you're reading your story. So it's another layer. And then the final, when you're sharing it's big. You could probably speak to that yourself, but it's big for most people to put it out there, to put themselves, their story out there for others to see. And of course your first thought is to judge. And so that is, it's a huge thing as well to be able to put it out there for others to look at. And the thing that I think that the students found most interesting is that they weren't thinking as they're watching each other's stories, they weren't judging each other's stories. You know, they were finding themselves in those stories. And so they recognized the importance of sharing as well. It all kind of comes together to help them understand their experiences and then be able to move forward from them. Did I even answer that question or did I just go off on a tangent? You did.
Dr. Marie - No, I feel like I went off on a tangent because I was just so curious to dig deeper into storytelling specifically and really how that process is helpful because I think I can imagine people listening to this and thinking, this just sounds really fluffy. This sounds like just an amped up way to journal. And journaling is not for me. And I'm, you know, I'm just not into that. And it really is. You explain it through all the layers there, I can see the connection between storytelling and how that can build resilience. Because as you said, there are so many layers to processing and self-reflection. And we know based on research that self-reflection, processing, integration, all of these skills are skills that people use to build resilience. Right? That capacity to bounce back after a challenge.
Dr. Marie - If you or someone on your team could use a little extra support right now, I invite you to visit revivingvetmed.com. You'll find a growing library of free, practical resources designed specifically for veterinary professionals. Things like printable handouts, quick self-assessments, blog posts, guided meditations, and more. So whether you're looking for something for yourself, a teammate, or your entire practice, there's something there to help you start meaningful conversations and take small steps toward better wellbeing. Just head to revivingvetmed.com to explore these resources today. I want to hear you give us some examples about stories in just a moment so that people can really understand what kinds of things people might be processing. As you said, I had the experience working with you and telling a story about a mistake that I made as a resident when I was at NC State University.
Dr. Marie - I was in the ICU doing my residency and I was involved in the management of a case that had a feeding tube placed. And through a series of circumstances and things that happened, there was a mistake. I misread the X ray that was taken to confirm the dog's tube placement. And that dog subsequently got fed food through her feeding tube that was in her lungs. And she suffered a cardiopulmonary arrest that night. And of course that was a hugely distressing event for me. I still get emotional talking about that event and it's so interesting, I almost can't even put it into words. The impact that doing this process of digital storytelling with you had on me in sharing that story. I’ve written about Lacy's story before Lacy's. The dog who had the feeding tube misplaced. I've written blog posts about it.
Dr. Marie - I wrote about it in my book A Compassionate Calling. I've even talked about it at conferences when I talk about the importance of medical error disclosure and how people can recover from medical errors. And when I saw the digital story that you put together with my narration and your images, because you did that component for me and the music, I was just blown away by the impact that it had by how different it felt than just telling it or reading it. And then to get in front of an audience at the story slam where you and I came together in Calgary and we attended and we got to share our story in front of an audience and then get up on stage and talk about it. Oh, my gosh. It just adds a whole other layer to it.
Dr. Marie - So I'm curious, now that people have that context, what kinds of stories did the students tell? I know some of them wanted to remain anonymous. So you know, you're not going to share their actual story. But you talked about resilience stories. What kinds of things are people processing when they do a digital story?
Angie - I was kind of fascinated, actually, at how varied the stories were, like, between both the practicing vets and the students themselves. We had some that were of, you know, personal hardships that led them to become a veterinarian to start with struggles during their training. Others spoke about compassion fatigue and euthanasia, medical errors that you had mentioned. And another big one was fears of not meeting expectations. Yes. So that was another big one that I noticed. And I thought it was funny because many of the practicing vets, they had asked me, they're like, okay, so what story should I tell to fit what you want to share? And I'm like, no, no. Like you. It's what's important to you. You gotta share what you know. It's about a meaningful moment, not about what I want kind of thing. Right. And so I think they struggled a little bit. Right. It was like, okay, well, but I don't wanna have the same story as the other, you know, as anyone else. Right. And I'm like, I don't think that's gonna be a concern. And so it was quite interesting because I found, like, everyone's experience was both completely individual and yet totally universal. Right. All at the same time. I loved the stories that everyone came up with. And yeah, even if they were potentially on the same kind of theme, various different takes on it. So everyone's just got such a personal experience that's what makes it so magical, I guess might be a stupid word for that, but that's what it feels like to me.
Dr. Marie - I don't think it's stupid at all. I think the experience for me was definitely magical. And that makes sense. And we're all so different, and we come from different backgrounds and experiences. We have different value systems and opinions. And even if we collectively, everybody makes a mistake, it might even be the same mistake the way that they experience that, and what they take away from it is going to be different. And that's definitely something that I really thought about when we were working on the story together about Lacy is what was the big takeaway? Like, what was the reframe or the message or the knowingness that I took away from that helped propel me forward, or that has gotten me to this place today where I feel able to share that story with other people. And I recognize that probably when people create stories, they don't necessarily have to share them with anybody. They might create that story for themselves and maybe decide at some point whether they do want to share that. But I'm so grateful that you have created this elective. And I'm curious, with the student experience with it being titled Resilient by Design, did you do any measures around resilience in the students or in your feedback that you obtained from the students after the elective, did you hear them share whether or not they felt more resilient after participating in the elective?
Angie - I find that because it's also an art form, it's really hard. I mean, it's very difficult to determine. Right. Part of the elective was a final reflection, a final self-reflection, not based on what they actually felt, but just, you know, telling us what they got out of the class itself. And it was all positive. I mean, you know, they said that it was things that they had never talked to anybody about before. And so they found a safe space and they were able to recognize their story as being a resilience story. Because at first it wasn't. It was like, well, what do you mean? I'm not. I don't know. I. You know, nothing, just. Nothing came as, you know, when they think. They don't think about themselves as being resilient. And I think that was the beauty is being able to recognize their resilience in a past story and then defining that pattern is what can help you going forward. Right. So it's processing, recognizing, and then being able to use what you gained from that going forward.
Dr. Marie - I love that. Well, certainly you've touched on the fact, and we both recognize that veterinary professionals, everybody in practice, or any veterinary workplace really, for that matter, has exposure to suffering, to loss, to ethical dilemmas, and, of course, the positives. Right. Incredible moments with animals every single day. How do you see storytelling integrating into veterinary spaces to help people process those experiences instead of just carrying it from one shift to the next, which is something, of course, we see so often in the profession.
Angie - Well, exactly. Right. So I mean, if we're not processing the experiences in whatever way you choose to do that, it's going to lead to fatigue, burnout, depression, that kind of thing. So we need to find, I think that a lot of people cope, right? And coping is simply a short term remedy, which, I mean, you know, if it gets you through for the time being, that's great. But over the long haul, you have to become resilient. It needs to be a long term thing if you want to be in this profession long term, you need to build resilience, you need to be able to recover, to adapt, to grow, you know, from the experiences. And I guess I see that how story kind of fits into this is that once you learn how to frame your story, you start finding stories everywhere and you start seeing things and your experiences differently. So I find that now that I do so much of this when I'm writing about my experiences, I'm automatically building a story in my head, right? Like I'm thinking, okay, so if I was writing about this situation, I would say that this was what I was thinking for, right? This is what happened and this is how I feel now. I mean, typically you're not going to know right after an experience how it's going to change you. That's something you kind of have to go back to. But I mean, I just feel that having written it down, at least it is something that you can go back to.
Angie - So I mean, for me, I think starting something like, even a, like a daily brain dump I guess is the word I'm looking for can be helping you process. So for myself, I'm actually not a big journaler. I do write my stories, but daily wise I actually use story worthy Matthew Dix, I think is his name. He does homework for life. And I just loved that. I thought it was a great way for you to spend five minutes a night and you just write down, okay, so what happened to me today? How did I feel about it? You know, just something, just kind of points of something that surprised you or something that made you feel good, bad or otherwise that day. And then it's just out there and you can go back to it later. And so then I'll go back, I don't know, once a month or whatever and see if there's anything in there that I need to pull out and kind of go deeper into. But at least I'm keeping track of things because again, we just pile it on. We pile it on, we pile it on, we forget about it and then we can't Figure out, you know, five years later why we're all of a sudden dealing with this whole schwack of stuff that we never thought about and not even realizing those are the things that are actually piling up and affecting.
Dr. Marie - You know 100%, I think, you know, you talk about coping, and I think it's really one of the big coping strategies that we have in our profession is just to push things away, right? To push it to the side, to keep our head down and to keep going and to not stop and reflect and process. And I would even take it a step further and say, even if a person doesn't go back and look at the stuff that they've journaled, I've, you know, gone in and out of journaling over the years, from gratitude journaling to, you know, other point journaling. And I rarely go back and look at it.
Dr. Marie - But the simple act of just pausing and looking back at the day and bringing some awareness to the things that happened and the impact that they had on you is better than not doing that at all, right? So just having that moment. And even if you're not writing it down or putting it in your phone, even if you're just giving yourself the opportunity to reflect, to maybe connect with your team or your partner or your roommate when you get home and say, hey, you know, what was the best part of your day? Or what was, like you said, the biggest surprise for you today, or the biggest takeover or learning moment or something. But just that opportunity to look back and make sense of something that happened, I think is so very important. And, of course, that's a lot of what we do in therapy with mental health professionals. And this is a way to begin that process without necessarily, you know, needing to connect with a mental health provider. I am just imagining that people are listening to our conversation and they're. They're thinking, wow, like, write a story and get pictures and put it together into a digital movie. And they might be thinking to themselves, I'm not creative. My story isn't interesting. What would you say to somebody who's hesitating to participate in the making of a digital story?
Angie - I thought the exact same thing. I was like, I am boring. There's nothing worth writing about, right? You know, most people think they are boring and not creative. So we can ixnay that one, right? Because everybody has a story, right? And I know veterinarians, most of the scientific people really don't think they have any creativity in them whatsoever. And everybody does. It's in there. And I guess that's where the facilitator comes in, you know, between prompts and conversation. We're helping pull that story out of you and finding what it is that, you know, finding these meaningful and important moments that you might not have even recognized at the time were meaningful or important. So that's kind of where we come in. They usually start, you know, and I find once you get one story out then it's like, okay, you know, that's. We've kind of opened up, opened it all up and now the stories are coming out like crazy.
Dr. Marie - So totally now I get that I'm already just even in our conversation now I'm thinking, oh, I know what I want to do next for our next digital story together. Because I just have this feeling that we're going to be doing more together. And I'm so excited to really be. Yeah. So for veterinary schools or veterinary practices organizations who want to incorporate digital storytelling into their culture or into their curriculum, where would you recommend they start? What is the first step that they could do?
Angie - I would think, well, I'm, hey, they can give me a call. I love talking to people about getting this worked into their organization or curriculum. But if not myself, honestly, if they're serious about the idea of digital storytelling, I would probably suggest contacting someone through common language digital storytelling, which is where I did my facilitator training. I think the biggest thing that I appreciate is that we're not just trained to create digital stories, but you're trained how to facilitate others and that's, you know, most people can easily pick up how to create the digital story, but the facilitation are, you know, it's different nuances. So yeah, absolutely, you're absolutely right. And that makes sense. It's like being a, you know, a wellbeing facilitator. I mean you can learn all the wellbeing skills and you can work on your own wellbeing. But then it's another craft to be able to facilitate others through that process or coach them through that process. And you'll find in healthcare a lot of them are actually they will send someone within their institution to get trained so that they can offer that within their institution.
Dr. Marie - So I love that. I love that. Well, we will definitely link up to common language in the show notes. If people want to get in touch with you to potentially work with you, which I highly recommend they do, what is the best way for them to find you?
Angie - Either my website, which is soslegacies.com or emailing me at soslegacies@outlook.com.
Dr. Marie - Awesome. Well, Angie, we will definitely include your contact information in the show notes, so thank you for sharing that. I'm going to close with the same question that we ask all of our guests on the podcast, and that is, what does the phrase reviving veterinary medicine mean to you?
Angie - When I think of reviving veterinary medicine, I think about it as an intervention of the status quo. Right. So changing the current culture of Vet Med. And I want to be involved in that, so I love it.
Dr. Marie - Well, you already have been involved and I have an inkling that there is more to come. So I am so grateful for the time that you spent with me today and for this conversation. I think this is really going to be of interest to a lot of folks out there. So thank you so much for your time and your expertise, Angie.
Angie - Really appreciate it.
Dr. Marie - So that's it for this episode of Reviving Vet Med. What I appreciated most about this conversation is the reminder that resilience isn't just about getting through difficult experiences, it's also about making sense of them. In the show notes, I'll share links to two digital stories that you can see examples of this work in action, including my own story about a medical error that really changed how I handle and talk about mistakes in my career. If this conversation resonated with you, please take a moment to share it with a friend or colleague who you think would also benefit. You can learn more about Angie's work and SOS legacies through the links in the show notes. A sincere thank you to Angie Turner for joining me today to podcast Prime Solutions for producing this episode and to you, the listener, for staying until the end. Until next time, take care of yourself. Bye for now.