Betrayal Recovery: Unstuck & Unfiltered

Betrayal doesn’t just break trust, it breaks your inner compass. One day you’re functioning, the next you’re asking, “Am I healing or am I stuck?” and you can’t even tell which way is up. We sit down with Tammy Gustafson, therapist and betrayed partner, to get painfully clear about the predictable places women get stuck after infidelity, pornography use, and other sexual integrity breaches, and what actually helps you start moving again.

We dig into a distinction that can instantly reduce shame: your healing is not the same as his healing, and it’s not the same as relationship healing. When he’s not doing the work, the marriage may be stuck, but that doesn’t mean you are. From there we talk through the most common traps, including self-blame that targets your body or your sex life, the pressure to manage his emotions, and the power imbalance that makes “fairness” a misleading framework after betrayal trauma.

We also go straight at two faith-community hot buttons: forgiveness and anger. Tammy explains why “forgive and forget” can shut the process down, why forgiveness and trust come after truth and grief, and why anger, expressed safely, is often the doorway back to self-worth and strong boundaries. If you’ve been trying to be the “good wife” while your nervous system is screaming, you’ll feel seen here.

If this helps, subscribe, share it with a friend who needs language for what she’s going through, and leave a review so more betrayed partners can find support.

Links:

Website: https://tammygustafson.com

Book: Broken to Brave: Your Courageous Act of Healing After Intimate Betrayal

Contact us today: If you have a question, comment, or need help, email us at info@regenerationministries.org

Free Resources for you!

👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)

Transcript

Welcome And The Stuck Question

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Okay, Tammy, you're just gonna have to fuck up because I get really excited. I'm really excited when we do our podcasts. Um, welcome to Sacred by Design, Tammy Gustafson. Thank you for being here with me and Ann.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

It's it's so special. Um, Ann and I uh have talked several times on this podcast because of the coaching that we do with women and the work that Ann does specifically with um betrayed partners, with disclosures and such. We have talked um a lot here about um that emotional visual of the earthquake, right? Of finding out and the shattering that that is. Then we've also spent a lot of time on um self-care and also on community and what that looks like and can feel like as scary as that can be. Um but we have a really specific um topic that we want to really uh step into with you, and that is this idea of being stuck.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Yeah, this is where we'd like to kind of land for as much of the time as we can, because we have listeners and friends who um would love to know more about this and understand it for their own well-being and body's sake.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Yeah, I think this is such a critical topic. I'm so glad we're talking about this because I feel like there's so many ways to get stuck in this process. And from, and I think from like this is part of my story, right? So I have the clinical background, I've been a I've been seeing clients for about 20 years, but then about 11 years ago, my life blew up. And um, and the truth about my husband's betrayal and sexual integrity issues came out. And let me tell you, even with all my clinical training, nothing prepares you for betrayal. And when you do, like you have no idea like which way is up or down, backwards or forwards. You don't know what you're doing, if it's helping or hurting. You don't know a lot of times if you're stuck or if you're healing. And so I just want to really normalize that that it is so disorienting. Um, but the beauty is from the clinical perspective and having worked with so many people through this, there's actually very predictable ways that women get stuck in this process. So so glad that we're unpacking this.

Two Kinds Of Stuckness

SPEAKER_01 2:59

And I think some, you know, a listener is probably gonna be like, oh, predictable ways. Let me know what some of those are. So could you, you know, walk us through like how does somebody understand the experience of feeling stuck or trying to put words to it when she can't make sense. Maybe she's done some good healing work. And absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

So when I think about stuck, um there it I think it's important to differentiate that there's a couple different categories of stuckness. And I think there are some ways where women don't realize that they're stuck, but then there's also times where they think they're stuck and they actually aren't. And usually the differentiation is we need to differentiate her healing and we need to differentiate his healing or the relationship healing. So there are areas that are common for her to get stuck in her own healing process. There are a whole other laundry list of ways that he gets stuck, but I want to differentiate that if he is stuck, that doesn't mean that she is stuck. And so a lot of times people think, well, he's not doing the work, and our marriage isn't moving forward, and so therefore I'm stuck. That's different. You are not stuck, he is stuck. And if he is stuck, the marriage will be stuck, but that is not your fault, and it's not that you're necessarily doing anything wrong. So I just want to start by differentiating that there's there's two kinds of stocks here or non-stocks. That's very tangly.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Yep. So, Tammy, do you listen for and ask, you know, deeper questions to help differentiate the two different places and dig, you know, and what are some of your digging questions that you might, you know, offer your client?

The Trap Of Self Blame

SPEAKER_02 5:10

Well, that's a great question. Maybe I think what would be helpful if it's okay, let me let me outline some of the ways that she gets stuck. Let's put him and the relationship on the back burner, because that's a whole different ballgame, right? Let's just talk to those listening, let's talk about you. Okay. Some of the some of the common ways that women get stuck. Um, first of all, is I think how just about every betrayed partner, when life blows up, feels like it's her fault somehow. That if she had done something different, if she was more attentive, it usually comes down to sex in her body. Like it's just an automatic victim blaming here. And I don't love the word victim, but it's true. It comes down to well, the messages that society gives, even churches give as well. Obviously, you weren't having enough sex with him. You weren't meeting his needs because if you were having enough sex, he wouldn't be tempted and happy men don't cheat. So painful and so damaging and so false.

unknown 6:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

But that is kind of so it either goes there where it's from the outside, or there's inside um stuff that comes up too. Because when betrayal happens, it's like every insecurity you have ever had in your life suddenly comes back, feels like they were all confirmed and they were on steroids. So it's like, well, I'm I'm not pretty enough. My boobs aren't big enough. If my stomach was flatter, if I hadn't gained 20 pounds after the baby, if I had been more fun, if I had been more entertaining, if I had been more exciting, if I had done those positions in bed that he wanted to do, then this wouldn't have happened. And so that is just a natural thing that happens with most betrayed partners. And so this feeling of somehow it's my fault. And that can be further perpetuated if they end up with um a counselor or a coach or a pastor who starts to say, What was what was your part in this? You know, we have to look at what your part of this was. And let me tell you, there is no part of his betrayal that is your fault ever. His betrayal is not your fault. That that's a hard stop. And and how I like to talk about this is, you know, if we if marriage or if betrayal has not ever happened in a marriage, you know, then then we know that marriage is 50-50, 100%, 100%, whatever you want to say, right? But even if there were issues in the marriage, which by the way, there always are because every marriage is not, every marriage has issues. So that doesn't, that's just normal. But even if he was unhappy with something in the marriage, there are a thousand things that he could have done to address it, to talk about it, to go to counseling, to heck, to divorce you, right? There's a thousand things he could have done, and that many men do to stay in the marriage and do deal with something that he's not pleased with, right? When he chooses, instead of staying in and doing that hard work, when he chooses instead to cross that line of your marriage vows or your relationship agreement, that is 100% on him. You weren't over there hoisting him over, you didn't put a stepladder over that line. When he does that, and it's almost always in secret, that is a hundred percent on him. It is never your fault that he crosses that line. Okay. So once that line is crossed, you are no longer in marriage land where things are 50-50. You are now in betrayal land. And that is a hundred percent his responsibility that he got you there and that he broke the marriage. And it is on him to fix that. And so one of the ways, so so that kind of leads us into a second steck point. One steck point is thinking it's all about me, like I did something wrong. And the problem with that, and it's totally normal, like there's shame that is that's just kind of inherently comes with that. But what happens sometimes too is that it actually lets him off the hook to take his full responsibility. So that's one way that is betrayed partners, and we all spend time in this first era where we can get stuck of feeling like it's my it's my fault. So we need people around us to be like, it is not your fault ever, ever.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

No matter what, and thank you for being so clear about that. Thank you.

Let Her Pain Take Center Stage

SPEAKER_02 9:50

Oh, I'm very passionate about that. And that that's a foundational piece that really um that that's really it's really important. And I am for anyone listening who's feeling like, oh, I feel that and I shouldn't feel that. There's no shame, there is no judgment. This is so normal. It's so normal, and it hurts so bad and it feels so terrible. And that's where getting other women around you, because as you hear somebody else say that, you can be like, oh, I know that's not true about you. I know that wasn't your fault. And then when you see that in others, you're like, well, maybe if that's true for you, maybe just maybe, maybe that's true for me too. So that's kind of a that's kind of a first part. Um and then also another way that another kind of predictable way that women can get stuck in this process is once that line has been crossed, and then there's kind of this natural, not natural, there's this unspoken balancing act that happens of whose emotions are going to get center stage? Is it going to be your emotions and your pain and the shattering and the heartbreak and the deep betrayal and the trauma that's going on in your body? Is that going to get center stage? Or is his shame or anger or defensiveness or regret, is that going to get center stage? And this is important because as women, and especially those who come from a faith background, there is a natural pull and total conditioning that says you are supposed to help him. And that says you are supposed to, if he's if he's hurting or if he's feeling negative emotions, you're supposed to help. Or, you know, this is an us problem if you're still thinking it's an us problem. And so I need to help him and make him feel better and whatnot. And I would say, no, no, it is not his emotions that should be getting centered stage right now. He is the one that shattered you and your relationship. He is the one that did it. So he and you should be focused on your emotions. You are the one in ICU, you are in the emotional ICU. And he's the one that put you there. So you get to focus on you. And I would say you need to focus on you and to focus on your grieving and focus on getting the truth and focusing on absorbing this new reality. And that, oh my gosh, that that absorbing piece of like, oh my gosh, I didn't even think he was capable of that. And he did what? I never, he's the last person I ever would have thought who would have done that. Right. So there is this trauma and this this um absorbing piece, and then making sense of it and leaning into the grief, which by the way includes both sadness and anger, right? And so, and here's the deal if you do that, then you can heal. And he actually has a chance to heal, and the relationship has a chance to heal. But if he focuses on him, and even more so, if you both focus on him, then all healing stops.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

I heard a client share with me. Um, I wish I had bandages to remind my partner of how much I'm still hurting. Yes. I wish I had those ICU bandages, you know, one month, two months, three months down the road when life kind of kicks back in and they're still hurting so badly, and center stage doesn't feel as fair or something, you know. Um and so I just thank you for uh, you know, just highlighting just this important place for for a woman to validate where she is and honor where she is and stay there, center stage.

Power Imbalance And “Fairness”

SPEAKER_02 14:18

Yeah, and another thing I want to say with all this too is that you do not have to be perfect in this. If you're like, oh my gosh, I'm failing because I'm focusing on him or because X, Y, Z. No, you're not, you're not failing. It there's so much compassion and there is no one right way to heal. And I think there can be so much pressure and noise from the outside saying, this is what you're supposed to do, and you're supposed to do this and this and this, and that's what you need to do to heal. And if you don't, it's your fault, or if you're doing no. No. One of the one of the things that my counselor said to us, in fact, we saw a counselor together, and what he said to me in front of my husband as well was Um, Tammy, there's nothing you can do to screw this up. Except if you have a retaliatory affair. Don't do that, right? But like, other than that, there's nothing you can do to screw this up because it's on him to heal it. So for everyone listening, I just want to hear you, I just want to tell you, there's nothing you can do to screw this up. He is going to heal if he chooses to heal, period. Right? But it's not on you or anything you're gonna do or not do that is going to make it not work. So I just want to give that to everybody that you have permission to be exactly where you are, to feel exactly what you're feeling. Man, when I went through this, it was so messy. I was yelling at my husband. I swore, I never swore at my husband ever. I was swearing like a sail, sailor, sailor, or to say that. Like it was messy. Our disclosure was a drip disclosure. It wasn't this full therapeutic disclosure. It was me telling him you sit down right now and you tell me what was going on. I dissociated through the whole thing. The whole thing was a mess. But that's just that's it's just messy. And you can heal. We did none of the things you're supposed to do, or none of the tools that you're supposed to use nowadays. We we did like none of those, and we still healed because I was focusing on my healing and I was going to heal, and my husband did the work to heal, but he worked hard. Yeah, and so if you have to hold up a magnifying glass to see if your husband is doing the work, or to be like, you know, I think, I think it was, then he's not working hard enough. And and I'm gonna come back to something you said because this I'm hearing this more and more, and it just like, ooh, it just sends me through the roof. This issue of fairness and this issue of power and the power dynamics. There is nothing fair about betrayal. You were faithful to your husband, and he broke your relationship vows and did not tell you about it, probably. Or even if he did, chances are you asked him to stop and he didn't. He had all the power. There was nothing fair about that. So when we come into, once you find out and we come into healing, and it's like, oh, but gosh, I'm having to do more work than she is, and I'm having to do this, and why am I having to look at my stuff and why am I having to work so hard? Because you were the one that had all the power and shattered all this. So if your husband is talking about it's not fair, he's got some serious work to do. That is a sign that he has not broken deep enough and is not being humble enough and owning what he not only the actions he has done, but what it has done to you. And so I highly recommend you get in to somebody who really understands this because if there's any talk about being fair, he's looking at the wrong thing and going down the wrong path.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

And and I bet a woman who's hearing that, she may feel stuck there because she's um not realizing the power differential. And and even today she may even be realizing like I can ask, I can I can ask that he get more help. And um and that may be a place that she's felt stuck. And perhaps you know, you're giving her permission to not do it right and to ask for greater ownership.

Forgiveness And Trust Too Soon

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Yeah, it's really important. Um you get to step into your strength, maybe for the first time in your life. What you want and need matters. What you need to feel safe totally matters. What you need for your husband to do so that you will feel safe and that you will give you the opportunity where you feel like maybe I can stay in this relationship, that matters. Okay, but shifting gears back to stock points. Another really common couple of stock points, especially in the Christian community, is around faith or not faith, around forgiveness and around trust. So these are um, I would say in the in the general population, this this comes across more as trust. If I can just trust him again, then we'll be okay. I just need to learn how to trust him and move on and put this behind us and just trust him. And I think the the very close equivalence that's still there in faith communities, but then forgiveness comes on right on those heels. And if I can just forgive him, if I can just forgive him and put this behind us, I need to forgive and forget. I need to forgive him immediately, otherwise, God won't forgive me. Um, and this can be a stack point. And so, first of all, I want to say God is a much more gentle, loving, understanding God than that. He stands on the side of the betrayed, and so he knows the pain and he is standing with you in it, and he is patient. We forget about God's patience when it comes to forgiveness. But here's the deal forgive and forget does not work. It is not biblical, that should be thrown out. Forgive and forget does not work, nor is it safe. If we take this to an extreme and we think about abuse and we say, Well, you know, he said he was sorry, so you forgive him, and then just forget that it ever happened, then you are not learning from that to keep yourself safe. You are not learning from that to be able to put in safe boundaries. It's just not even safe. Okay. But here's the other thing: if you focus on forgiveness or trust too soon, it will not speed up the healing process. It will not get you moving forward, it will shut down the healing process. Forgiveness comes on the back end of healing, not on the front end. So why do I say that? Because you one, because it just doesn't work. Like a lot of women try it, and they I did, I tried that. First time I found out a little bit about what my husband did, he cried, I cried, he said he was sorry, I said I'd forgive him, and uh, we moved on. It never healed. It it went quite. Quiet, but it was always this low grade fester inside of me. And there was always just like it just, it just kind of just kind of simmered below the surface. And then it wasn't, we went that way for a year. And then finally I was like, this just isn't like it's just still. And so we bought Jason Martinkis' book, Worthy of Our Trust. And I was like, all right, we're gonna, we'll do. I bought a coffee for me, I got one for him. I was like, let's just do one chapter a week and we'll just we'll just nail this out. First chapter, light blew up, and lo and behold, there was so much more than than what he had told me. Forgiveness comes on the other side of knowing what it is you need to forgive. Forgiveness comes on the other side of grieving. Forgiveness comes on the other side of anger. It's like it is what happens is the byproduct of the healing that you do. You have to give yourself time and space to wrestle and to heal. Because again, what we want, what we're actually using forgiveness to do when we try to do it too fast is we're trying to do it to shut down the process. We're trying to do it to make it okay. We're trying to do it to like, okay, we're just we're just wrapping it up and everything's gonna be fine. And that is not how you heal. It just doesn't work.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

So, Tammy, these these feelings within grief, because you've mentioned it a couple of times now, the the feelings of sadness and anger in particular. I mean, as a woman growing up in church or as a woman growing up in this world, just even the the feeling of anger can be a real stuck spot. Because if we don't know how to identify it, what it even feels like, how do we do that? How do we begin that?

SPEAKER_02 24:10

Yeah, that's another really big stuck point is anger, especially for those in the Christian community. You know, I Christians are actually uh have the hardest time healing. And the reason why Christian women and the reason why, because I see I see women of all faith beliefs of all around the world, and I have to unbury Christian women before they can even get to ground zero to start healing. Because of like what you're talking about, there's all these messages. And I grew up in a very conservative faith community. So I get it. I I was I lived and breathed this for my entire childhood. But there's all these, like thou shalt not be angry. It's like the 11th commandment for women. It's like the one socially acceptable emotion for men, it's the one unacceptable emotion for women. So the 11th commandment is thou shalt not be angry, right? And um, and there's all these other messages of don't think too much of yourself, you know, kind of this idea of boundaries are bad, you know, uh put everybody in front of yourself, your emotions don't matter, you know. And the the this would be adamantly fought in from from religious circles, but there's this women are not as important as men. There is absolutely that message, very clearly, especially when you're outside of the church and you look at it, it's so very clear. And so there's all these layers of you just need to be quiet, you need to submit, you need to not be angry, you need to be all this stuff. And so, and then you're put into this box of this is what it means to be a godly Christian woman. This is what it means to be a godly Christian wife. And there are a million books out there that try to fit you into this box. And the problem is none of us were meant to be in a box to begin with. We are all individuals, and it strips women of their power in their voice. And I'm not saying this to beat up on Christian communities, I'm saying it because it's true. And I'm saying it because these are the layers that I have to help unbury women from before they can get to a place of healing. Because to heal after betrayal, you have to believe in your worth and value. You have to go, no, this is not okay with me. No, I don't to be deserve to be treated this way. And I will set a boundary. I will not have sex with you while you're doing this, and I don't feel safe. Like I do need you to leave the house for this weekend while I'm trying to get re-centered and regulated. Like there is, and you have to leave in lean into your grief. The grieving process is the healing process. And so, with that, circling back around, there is sadness, and we're all about sadness. We get that sadness is not usually a problem. It's the anger. And where this is a very, very common stock point because if you're told your entire life you shouldn't be angry, and you're scared of anger, or there maybe you also had a parent who was angry and scary and raged, and then it gets doubly scary, and you're like, I'm just not going to, I'm, I don't know how to do that anger. I don't know how to feel that anger. Anger is bad, anger feels sinful, anger is just, we're not doing that.

SPEAKER_03 27:32

God is angry in the Bible a lot.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

Anger is a God-given emotion and it and an emotion that God has, and it's there for a reason. Because all of our emotions are indicators, God-given indicators. And anger is an indicator that something is not okay, that a boundary has been crossed. Anger gives you the energy you need to stand up for yourself and to set those boundaries. And anger and self-worth go hand in hand. So if I have a woman come into my office and she is struggling with self-worth, I will automatically ask her, what's your relationship with like with your anger? And she says, I don't get angry. So part of that is that righteous indignation. This is where the self-worth and anger comes in. It's that righteous indignation of going, no, I don't deserve to be treated like this. No, I don't deserve to have you break the marriage vows. No, I don't deserve to have you looking at pornography in naked women. Like we had an agreement here that this was not part of it. That is not okay. And so when I'm talking about anger, I'm not talking about violent rage. That's different. That is different. Rage is different. But what I am talking about is it is not okay. And I want to give you permission because then the next step is well, people will say, Well, you can be angry, you can feel it, but it shouldn't actually come out at all. Don't sin in your anger. Let me tell you, after betrayal, I want you to get mad. And if you need to get loud, like I got loud, if you need to swear like I swore, because at some point, all of that vile and nastiness that he did gets deposited in the well of your soul. And there, it was so there was so much pain and agony and anger inside of me. I was like, those are the only words that could express what I was feeling inside. And let me tell you, I think God understands. I think God understands. So I want to give you permission to break out of all of those boxes and that you were put in and all this, and this is how you're supposed to act. And for you, for the first time, you give yourself freedom to be you and express yourself. And that might surprise you and it may be big and ugly. And you know what? It won't always be like that. But it's like sometimes you have to let the pendulum swing, not wildly out of control. Don't have a retalitor affair. But and the boundaries, I would say there are boundaries that you need to have. And I would say keep it away from the kids. Keep it away from the kids. Don't have an affair. And I would say do your best not to hit him. And I know some listening have, and so there's no shame and judgment in that, but it makes it harder because then you feel really bad about yourself. And also, I would say property damage. You know, those are the boundaries that I set for myself. Now, if you want to take some old dishes, not your China, but some old dishes or go to Walmart and get some dishes and you go out in your garage and break them, it is so therapeutic. Highly recommend it. But don't be throwing dishes at him or at the wall.

SPEAKER_04 31:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

So there are some boundaries there, but but we have to give ourselves freedom to feel and express what we feel.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

Was that festering that you felt for a year? Would you say that that was anger?

SPEAKER_02 31:25

No, not necessarily. It was um, it was unsettlement. It was like this just this just doesn't feel, I don't know. Do I have the full truth? Is he gonna do this again? Like, you know, we never talked about it after that. So it was just like, I don't, it was just like, oh, I and I feel stupid and why didn't I see this? It was just kind of all this like low grade stuff. I didn't really tap into my anger until until when things really blew up. And then and then I I went to anger and I went to anger pretty fast. But that was um really healthy for me.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

I think that one of the things that uh the husband boyfriend can do uh when, especially when we're trying to allow ourselves to feel grief and anger and we are feeling stuck there. And maybe part of their healing, if you could speak to this, is uh where the guy is learning some words of empathy to be able to hold or usher in your anger in a really careful way and why that's so important.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

Well, it's important for a couple of reasons. One, I hope he's not just learning the words. I hope he's actually learning the empathy because those listening, you're gonna, you're gonna see through that in a hot second. Like you can feel it when it's like, oh, he just learned those words from our therapist or from a podcast, but he doesn't actually mean them. Um, but this is part, this is a crucial part of his healing process. In fact, our therapist told Nathaniel when when I was in this lot of anger and whatnot, he said, Nathaniel, she's doing you a favor because part of sexual acting out or sexual addiction or pornography addiction or whatever the case is, is that at a very early age, they learn to not deal with negative emotions. That's where the root of a lot of this is, is they don't deal with the negative emotions. And it doesn't have to be that they were molested, but it usually does involve some sort of their needs were not met, they didn't know how to do this, right? So they learned that, oh, negative emotions come up. What do I do with that? I don't know what to do with that. And so eventually they learn that if they have sex or if they look at pornography or if they masturbate, then they they get a release from that for a period of time. And then if that continues, that starts to become a pattern that is woven together. Of I feel negative emotions, I sexually act out. And so part of their healing process, especially after all this comes out, at the very, very core, they have got to learn to deal with negative emotions. So when our counselor said that to my husband, he was he was he was talking about that of like you are getting a crash course and an opportunity for you to grow up in this area and to learn how to deal with negative emotions, because this is core. If you don't, there will be no healing. If you continue, and a way, in a way that it often comes out is they don't, is they don't fully accept it. They don't fully, they don't fully own it, they deflect and they get angry. Why aren't you over this yet? I stopped. Why aren't you like, why aren't why aren't you done? Like it's been six months. I said I wouldn't do it anymore. Or just anger, or like now you're being angry at me and now you're hurting me. It becomes this, it becomes this Darvo effect where they flip it on you. So it is crucial that they learn how to deal with negative emotions. And I was giving my husband an opportunity to do that. And so your you expressing big emotions or negative emotions is not hurting the process. It is giving him a chance to do the work he needs to do for there to be healing. So you do not have to make yourself small or shut yourself up for this healing process to work. In fact, I would encourage you, I would encourage you to express it as long as he is safe. If he is abusive, if he is not safe or whatnot, that's a whole different ballgame.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

How did your husband do with your big emotions after his, you know, the the therapist suggested he, you know, do that for you? How did he how did it go? How did he hold my room for it?

Finding Your Voice And Resources

SPEAKER_02 35:50

Yeah, my my husband broke pretty quick and he did the work. Um he he broke very quick. And he, I think for him, one of the one of the differences that I see in him than with a lot of men is he was able to deal with his shame really, really quickly. Um, and we still talk about that. I'm like, you need to, you need to like put this more into words about how that happened. And for him, it went to an identity piece. Like for shame to heal, you have to go back to that identity piece, that deep work. And so you have got to go in deep. I'm talking to the men right now, got to go in deep and deal with that shame piece. So once he was able to, once that shame was out of the way, then he was able to hear that. And I also I was I was pretty relentless in the fact of like life stops, life stops until we get this taken care of. And either you are going to get clean and sober and go down the right path, or we're getting divorced. But I'm not gonna pretend like life is okay. I'm not going to go on like life is normal, like life stops. That was that was my take on it. And you've always been so comfortable.

SPEAKER_00 36:58

Oh, sorry. No, go ahead. I was gonna say, are you have you always been so comfortable stepping into your power? Is that normal for you? No, no, no, okay, never.

SPEAKER_02 37:07

I did not have my power and I did not have my voice. And I for me, I I was very much trying to be the good, godly Christian wife, submissive woman, never swear, be the good girl, do all the right things. That was always me. So yeah, who I am now and my power now is very different from that. And it's not in spite of what I went through, it's because of it. But for whatever reason, I when I when everything blew up, I stepped into the oh, I trust myself now. Oh, I can trust my gut. And I think there's from the research I've done, there's about half of the women go like go there, and the other half go like, I can't trust myself, right? And so either way, you can all get to the same point, but but you get to step into your power, and you get to say, this is not okay with me, and you get to say, like, no, I can't live like this, and it's terrifying, and it's scary, and it hurts so excruciatingly badly, and you keep breathing and you keep fighting for yourself, and you take it one step at a time. Because no, I did not have my voice. In fact, this is it's been a lifelong process for me to try to find my voice and try to use my voice. So I didn't have my voice, and I wasn't connected with my anger, but you can get there, right?

SPEAKER_01 38:45

And today, Tammy, you used your voice for women. And I I can't believe how much terrain we crossed, and it's really been um a level 300 class today. So thank you. And um, I mean, we talked about forgiveness and uh, you know, uh standing up for yourself and uh anger, yes, and uh what a what um an offering to women who um have felt like they they they can't use their voice. And you spoke for them today. And Andrea, I mean, do we have any final questions or um this has just been really fantastic? I'm just crying.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

It's a lot. I'm thinking of the women that I talk to, and it's it's a beautiful thing to hear not only that um yes, you found your voice, but you're sharing it so clearly and so emphatically and so um passionately. Um thank you. It's like you're this um, you know, the cloud of witnesses that we all have. You're like the you got a megaphone girl, and it is clear. It's awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much. Um I I feel like there's um sometimes when you're feeling stuck, it's just to hear. Um me too. And to hear, uh no, you just lift up your foot, or it looks like this, or it feels like this, or sounds like this. It's um you did all that for us today, so thank you.

SPEAKER_01 40:44

Thank you so much. You're welcome. And um how can women find you and tell us a little bit about your book?

SPEAKER_02 40:56

Broken too. Yeah, best way to connect with me is tammygustifson.com. And yes, broken to brave, here it is. It's out. And guys, everything we talked about today is it it's definitely in the book, um, or the audio book. Um so yeah, broken to brave, it it is my heart uh for betrayed partners. It is like this. Um, it is, I wrote it like I speak specifically to betrayed partners. My my heart was like if you and I were sitting down over coffee and I was just reaching out and picking you up and getting to your feet and infusing hope and empowerment and clarity to you and saying, You've got this. And I have been there, and I will lend you my strength while you need it as you build yours, that you can do this, you can heal, you can not just survive, but you can come out stronger, you can come out a more full version, a free version of yourself than you've ever been. And there is beauty and there is joy and there is adventure and there's fun in the world out there, and that's not just for somebody else, that's for you too. You can get there. And you're gonna have to do the hard work to go through it. There's no, there's no way to fast forward, there's no way to tap out through this process. You've the only way through it is through it, but you can do it. And so the book is is kind of my way of walking with you through the through it um and giving you strength and courage and clarity along the way because we all need that. We all need that so desperately when you're in the midst of this. Um, but it's possible. It is possible.

SPEAKER_00 42:51

And it's beautiful, Tammy. Thank you. Thank you so much. I cannot wait to like send this and share it and share it and share it. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 43:03

You're welcome. Thank you for it and share it and share it.