Episode 47: AI Landscape: The Resistance?

Rich and Justin continue to talk about AI developments in music. This includes ACE Studio’s AI voice-cloning tool (with listening tests distinguishing AI from real vocals), concerns about future live performance and consumer indifference, and ACE Studio’s prompt-based film-scoring feature. They debate producers using tools like Suno for demos versus replacing craft, criticize labels signing AI “artists” as profit-driven, and highlight Deezer adding AI tags amid estimates of 50,000–75,000 fully AI-generated songs uploaded daily, urging listener feedback and informed choices.

00:00 Welcome and Updates
01:20 Dark Force Fest Recap
03:37 Flowing Horizon Progress
05:08 AI Landscape Intro
05:25 ACE Voice Cloning Demo
06:43 Can You Hear AI
10:52 Robots and Live Shows
13:50 Ethics and Creative Value
15:05 AI Music as Product
16:38 What Else Is New
17:01 AI Film Scoring Prompts
17:56 Can AI Watch Scenes
19:07 Imagination After AI
20:59 Suno In The Studio
22:21 Tool Versus Craft
26:32 AI Artists Signed
28:12 Profits Over People
30:28 Deezer AI Tags
31:37 Listener Call To Action
32:58 Wrap Up And Goodbye

Logic Pro Launch Pad: From Set Up to Song is a Course designed for absolute beginners looking for training on Apple's Logic Pro. If you want to make music without feeling lost or overwhelmed, this course is for you! 

For Production Services, Coaching and Lessons, visit:

www.rjbmusicproduction.com

For help prepping your songs/voice for the studio:

www.bozicvoicestudio.com

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Transcript

Rich 0:09

​Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the "Face Your Ears" podcast. My name is Rich Bozic, and I'm joined with the industrial genie, Justin Hochella How you doing,

Justin 0:24

I've never been referred to as a genius. This is a first. I am doing well. How are you doing, Rich?

Rich 0:30

I'm doing well. It's a beautiful day out in Jersey. It's a little bit cold still, but, I guess this is what spring looks like now.

Justin 0:37

Yes.

Rich 0:38

just to give you a few updates, check us out on YouTube. We have our episodes up on YouTube, so if you're one of those people who likes to listen through YouTube, we are on YouTube, and we have some shorts up there as well, if you like that kind of

Justin 0:53

Yes.

Rich 0:54

content. Slaving

Justin 0:55

away over here in Michigan on these YouTube Shorts

Rich 0:59

over

Justin 0:59

So

Rich 0:59

out these YouTube shorts. If you

Justin 1:00

please watch them and like them and share them,

Rich 1:03

them.

Justin 1:04

They're fun.

Rich 1:04

Definitely share them. If you know producers in your life who would love to hear a DIY music podcast where we rant about all kinds of things, please share. So what's going on on your end, Justin?

Justin 1:20

I just got back from a really amazing music festival. It is called Dark Force Festival or Dark Force Fest, and it's in your great state of New Jersey in Parsippany. So we actually...

Rich 1:35

Festival,

Justin 1:37

yes

Rich 1:37

Fest. Mm-hmm. It's in the

Justin 1:39

But,

Rich 1:39

Jersey. Yes,

Justin 1:40

yeah, I went with my friend Jay, who I'm in a music project with called Same Not Same, and we actually met up with you, Rich. We had a delightful lunch at Boss Hogg's Barbecue, which is always an

Rich 1:54

with you, Rich. We had a delightful lunch at Boss Hog.

Justin 1:56

always an epic lunch, over at Boss Hogg's. But, yeah,

Rich 2:00

Boss Hogs.

Justin 2:00

we spent the weekend together, checking out Dark Force Fest. Several of our favorite bands like Front Line Assembly, Matte Blvck,

Rich 2:09

Black,

Justin 2:10

and so many others. 16 Volt, which is a favorite of mine.

Rich 2:13

of

Justin 2:13

a metal

Rich 2:14

metal-

Justin 2:15

industrial band. First time I'd ever seen them,

Rich 2:17

seen them,

Justin 2:19

special for me. So yeah,

Rich 2:20

So

Justin 2:21

it was really incredible to see

Rich 2:23

see

Justin 2:23

People making music.

Rich 2:27

music. Real

Justin 2:28

real people making music and singing,

Rich 2:31

making music,

Justin 2:32

in real time. It

Rich 2:33

time.

Justin 2:33

wonderful. But joking aside, yes, it was great. A lot of really cool vendors too. A lot of people selling all kinds of interesting things I saw a bust of Peter Steele.

Rich 2:44

A bust of Peter Steele Did you pick it up?

Justin 2:47

it was...

Rich 2:47

with. Yeah. And then somebody... So it was this really cool 3D-printed

Justin 2:49

But,

Rich 2:49

Peter

Justin 2:49

So it was like this really cool 3D-printed bust of Peter Steele from Type O Negative. Just to give you a taste of like some of the vendors there.

Rich 2:57

horror movie-themed, artwork and pins

Justin 2:58

a lot of

Rich 2:59

and, you know, stuff like

Justin 3:00

pins and magnets and stickers and, you know, stuff like that.

Rich 3:04

the kind of

Justin 3:05

with the kind of music, which was very industrial goth, kind of dark.

Rich 3:09

goth. Was there a lot of costumes?

Justin 3:11

so many costumes and just

Rich 3:14

just

Justin 3:14

outfits that were like super cool. And so yeah, people went all out.

Rich 3:19

all

Justin 3:19

it was pretty crazy.

Rich 3:20

crazy.

Justin 3:21

so yeah,

Rich 3:22

so

Justin 3:22

just had such a blast. I think by the end of the first day, we could barely feel our feet.

Rich 3:27

feet. We were exhausted.

Justin 3:29

but,

Rich 3:30

but,

Justin 3:30

so much fun, and I hope to be able to come again next year.

Rich 3:34

year. That's great. That sounds like a good

Justin 3:36

Yeah. so Rich, in our last episode, we talked about your debut as a recording artist with your single, "Flowing Horizon." Fantastic song. How's the response been? How's that going?

Rich 3:51

Rich, in our last episode, we talked about your debut as a recording artist with your your single, "Flowing Horizon." Fantastic song. How's the response been? How's that going? Thank you, my friend. it is going well.

Justin 3:59

Hmm.

Rich 4:02

you know, I'm not, uh, I'm not, uh, charting on Billboard quite yet, but, It's fun. I'm interacting with a lot of people I haven't spoken to in a long time. I'm trying to make it a goal to send the song, to a few people every day if I'm not connected with them on social media, and to kind of reconnect and just see what people are up to. So it's been fun in that regards. It was, quite a journey getting everything up and working on all the streaming platforms, but I think, things are about where they need to be. There's a few tweaks left with Apple Music, but, it's all coming together. But thanks for asking. it's a fun thing, and I look forward to releasing more. I have some more in the works

Justin 4:40

Yeah, I was just gonna ask, what can we expect next from Boz

Rich 4:44

The next song is, just about done being mastered, so that should be, coming out very soon. still working also on promoting "Flowing Horizon." So if you haven't checked it out, please, please do. It's on all of the platforms. Yes.

Justin 5:00

and we'll include a link to it in our show notes so that you can check it out.

Rich 5:05

notes so that you can check it out. Like I said, fantastic song. Check it out, people. So Justin, once again, AI brings us together.

Justin 5:11

Yes.

Rich 5:13

So today's topic, AI landscape: Resistance is Futile?

Justin 5:19

Question mark?

Rich 5:20

so kick us off. what do we got new? what, what's new in the AI universe

Justin 5:25

one thing that I was looking at recently was our good old friends ACE Studio have come up with something that's

Rich 5:35

was looking at recently was our old friends, ACE Studio. Ah,

Justin 5:37

interesting, I guess you could call it, amongst other things.

Rich 5:40

things.

Justin 5:41

they actually have a

Rich 5:43

a

Justin 5:44

tool that allows you to

Rich 5:46

to

Justin 5:47

clone a voice. So they call it AI voice cloning, customize your own AI voice model.

Rich 5:54

model.

Justin 5:54

So on their website, it says, "AI voice cloning lets you transform your own voice into a fully customizable singing model.

Rich 6:02

model.

Justin 6:02

just a few recordings, ACE Studio helps you train your voice and generate expressive, realistic vocals ready for any musical style."

Rich 6:11

style."

Justin 6:11

So

Rich 6:12

So-

Justin 6:13

voice lessons are optional now.

Rich 6:17

Oh, God. dialogue, technically. but what

Justin 6:18

can simply

Rich 6:19

to do is

Justin 6:20

up, uh, whatever, you know, technique they want. Um, but what I wanted to do is just-- I'm gonna play you some examples here, Rich, just so you can hear, and let's see if you can tell which one is the AI voice model and which one is original.

Rich 6:35

let you- Okay. Man, putting me on the

Justin 6:37

all right. I'm gonna be fully transparent. I wouldn't know.

Rich 6:41

know. But I think that's

Justin 6:42

So I think that's the point here. we'll start with the first one here. Isn't she lovely? Isn't she wonderful? Okay, so that's A, and here's B. Isn't she lovely? Isn't she wonderful? So what do you think? Which one, the first one or the second one?

Rich 7:10

first one- I'm gonna say the real one, I'm guessing, is the second

Justin 7:13

Oh, ding, ding, ding. You're right, you're right. The first one was AI. Yes.

Rich 7:18

AI.

Justin 7:19

let-

Rich 7:19

mean, wha- how I got there, I don't know. I just like, I don't

Justin 7:25

S-

Rich 7:25

I don't... Like I, I

Justin 7:26

your humanity?

Rich 7:28

Maybe this is, this is eye-opening on so many levels. I have humanity.

Justin 7:36

some tiny spark of humanity left inside of you

Rich 7:39

that's something. I'm

Justin 7:40

knew.

Rich 7:41

dead inside. Yes. Here's another one.

Justin 7:44

Let's try another one. Okay,

Rich 7:45

one. So

Justin 7:46

here's another one. So you tell me A or B. So here's, here's A. So if you try to lay in these arms, I'ma leave the door open. All right, so here's A, here's B. So if you try to lay in these arms,

Rich 8:07

these arms,

Justin 8:07

leave the door open.

Rich 8:11

I'm gonna guess A is the real

Justin 8:13

Oh, once again, your humanity wins out.

Rich 8:17

I guess, if I was to try to explain what I'm

Justin 8:19

Right.

Rich 8:24

sing. I mean, that's my main gig, right? Like I'm a voice teacher, right? So like all day listening to people sing. There's just

Justin 8:30

Yeah.

Rich 8:34

play like one of the AI ones and then an auto-tuned version of a real person, that might be tough. 'cause there's something about that I don't know if I'm just imagining it. We'll see. I'm two for two so far. Do you have one more?

Justin 8:48

I do. Let's do one more, and you tell me A or B. Okay, so here's A.

Rich 8:54

I'm

Justin 8:54

I'm at a payphone trying to call

Rich 8:58

on

Justin 8:58

All of my change I've spent on you. Here's here's B. I'm at a payphone trying to call home. All of my change I've spent on you.

Rich 9:13

spent on you. I'm gonna say the real one is B. Uh, the real one is B.

Justin 9:17

the real one is B. Yeah. It's, it...

Rich 9:20

It's

Justin 9:21

again, I don't think I would be able to tell, but I think you have a more humanity

Rich 9:26

you-

Justin 9:27

do inside of you.

Rich 9:28

what it is? I didn't go to DarkFest. No, I'm just

Justin 9:30

yeah, exactly. Your soul is fully intact because you didn't go

Rich 9:34

year, though.

Justin 9:35

to, Dark Force Fest. Yeah.

Rich 9:36

I

Justin 9:37

Um,

Rich 9:37

the DarkFest.

Justin 9:37

but yeah.

Rich 9:38

Okay. So, so like this is my take on it. Like so it's very subtle. The last one, what I caught was there was, you know how like when people sing into the mic, you sometimes get a little mouth noise? There's a little bit of the tongue mouth noise. I heard a little bit of the mouth noise in the third

Justin 9:55

Yeah.

Rich 9:55

and, the second example, and that's what led me to believe it. Also, there's something about the phrasing.

Justin 10:00

Hmm.

Rich 10:01

It's very close. I feel like almost like the music industry has conditioned us for years to get used to this idea of AI by just auto-tuning everyone and, it's already sound so synthetic and now they introduce the AI stuff and it's so similar. It... to me it sounds like a ultra auto-tuned voice, to a degree. it sounds like it sometimes could use some auto-tune in some of the examples, but, I'm listening for things like that, and just something about the phrasing. it's very

Justin 10:32

Very subtle, but it's, I

Rich 10:33

Yeah.

Justin 10:35

from a technical standpoint, it's pretty convincing. It's pretty impressive.

Rich 10:40

It's unbelievable. Singers, you better

Justin 10:44

take, yeah,

Rich 10:45

as they offer them

Justin 10:46

take note. Take note.

Rich 10:48

Yeah. Take note and, stop dragging your feet

Justin 10:50

Yeah.

Rich 10:51

to the gig

Justin 10:52

Yep. I mean, what I wanna say, my reaction is like, "Oh,

Rich 10:55

my, my

Justin 10:56

live performance is fine," right? And it's like, "Eh," I don't know.

Rich 11:01

who

Justin 11:01

'Cause, like, think about it. Who knows, in, 10, 20 years, you could have realistic

Rich 11:07

now we

Justin 11:07

robots. I mean, I know that sounds silly now, but it's like you...

Rich 11:13

We used to think e-cigarettes sounded

Justin 11:15

Yeah. Well, there's so much that we think sounded silly, but it's like you, you could absolutely have a robot, who is up there with one of these AI voices. or like a facsimile of a real-life singer,

Rich 11:30

singer,

Justin 11:30

like,

Rich 11:31

like- Mm-hmm

Justin 11:33

like,

Rich 11:34

but it's like,

Justin 11:34

I mean, think of like

Rich 11:36

of like

Justin 11:36

the,

Rich 11:37

the

Justin 11:38

for that, where it's

Rich 11:39

that where it's like,

Justin 11:39

you're... And you could pay less for

Rich 11:41

less for like

Justin 11:42

of the robot versus the real person, but you're like I don't care 'cause it's

Rich 11:46

because it's

Justin 11:47

looks like them, sounds like them, you

Rich 11:49

yeah.

Justin 11:49

for you, you could have a show in, you know, Podunk, Nebraska

Rich 11:53

and that

Justin 11:55

go to, but they're like, "Oh, we'll ship out

Rich 11:57

would never go to, but they're like, "Oh, we'll ship out

Justin 11:59

the singer bot,"

Rich 11:59

about that aspect.

Justin 12:01

tickets are,

Rich 12:02

the price than

Justin 12:02

a third of the price that they would be in like Los Angeles or New York.

Rich 12:06

Los

Justin 12:06

Who knows?

Rich 12:07

like scale, you could

Justin 12:08

Yeah.

Rich 12:09

performance

Justin 12:09

You could have simultaneous performances of the same artist if you got a robot with this kind of voice model

Rich 12:18

just voice- Oh,

Justin 12:18

inside of it. Insane.

Rich 12:21

Yeah, it's crazy. But that tech is very powerful. I mean, this is just the early stages and I really had to listen hard. And this is... You're talking to someone, I've been teaching for over 25

Justin 12:30

Yep.

Rich 12:31

singing even longer. And it's already at this stage, I can't imagine what this is gonna be like. You're not gonna be able to discern the difference in a few

Justin 12:38

Yeah,

Rich 12:38

Yeah. I mean, this has happened virtually overnight.

Justin 12:42

it's only been around for

Rich 12:44

it's, it's only been

Justin 12:45

Couple years

Rich 12:46

years,

Justin 12:47

Three?

Rich 12:48

three,

Justin 12:48

three years?

Rich 12:49

years,

Justin 12:50

And it's already this good.

Rich 12:51

good. I

Justin 12:52

like I said, I don't think I would be able to

Rich 12:54

be able to

Justin 12:54

accurately tell the difference.

Rich 12:56

the

Justin 12:56

maybe, but,

Rich 12:57

but- You know, you the truth, if you put a backing track with that where I couldn't hear all those little nuances, it would be even more difficult.

Justin 13:07

and to your point, to the layperson who's like, "Oh, I'm not a musician, I just enjoy pop music," or whatever,

Rich 13:13

whatever, I think

Justin 13:15

it's almost inconceivable that they would be like, "Oh, that's AI." Or more importantly, that they would care

Rich 13:21

even if they,

Justin 13:22

know, were told like, "Oh, that's an AI voice." They'd be like, "Mm,

Rich 13:26

that's

Justin 13:26

I don't care."

Rich 13:28

AI voice." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they might not care. I mean, we do it with everything else. People don't care about drinking, you know, real fruit juice or eating real food or, you know. It's like

Justin 13:37

Yeah.

Rich 13:38

this is just another thing. Add it to the list.

Justin 13:39

Yep. Oh, God.

Rich 13:43

okay. All right.

Justin 13:44

So that's ACE Studio. That's one of the things on the, uh, AI landscape nowadays.

Rich 13:50

and we laugh with a sense of... Like at least I can speak for myself here. I laugh with a sense of like, Why? Why are we doing this?" But like, I don't know. I mean, I try to think like perhaps there's some producer out there who just doesn't have access to get a singer for the recording or, you know. I could see maybe a use case like, "Oh, I wanna finish my song. I wanna hear what it sounds like." You know? But then there's always people who are very staunchly against it, who are like, "No, you need to, you know, try to find someone who can do it and, you know, there's gotta be a way." And I appreciate those people, but this is Pandora's box, man,

Justin 14:31

Yeah. I think there's a degree of acceptance. From my point of view,

Rich 14:35

point of

Justin 14:36

a degree of

Rich 14:36

is

Justin 14:36

"Okay,

Rich 14:37

of

Justin 14:37

understand that this is a reality," but

Rich 14:40

But it,

Justin 14:41

it doesn't have to be an inevitability with music. Like it's here. You're not gonna, be able to say

Rich 14:48

able

Justin 14:49

let's stop it altogether." But I, I think all of us can

Rich 14:53

of us

Justin 14:53

make

Rich 14:53

of make-

Justin 14:54

a choice, more importantly, a, mental or sort of spiritual choice of like what we value and care about.

Rich 15:03

about.

Justin 15:04

so for me,

Rich 15:05

me,

Justin 15:05

I actually was having this conversation with someone recently, and they asked me like, "What do you think of AI music and stuff?" And I was kinda like, "Eh, I'm not a fan

Rich 15:14

fan

Justin 15:14

you know, overall, of like AI-generated music." I just think it,

Rich 15:19

think it,

Justin 15:20

for me as a musician, I feel like it misses the point.

Rich 15:23

into

Justin 15:23

whole point is it's a creative process. It's a creative endeavor, whereas prompt-based music is not that whatsoever. it's a black box. You put a prompt into a computer, and it spits something out.

Rich 15:38

something

Justin 15:38

You don't really have any control over any of those details,

Rich 15:43

details.

Justin 15:43

And I think that's something you and I both enjoy is like the ability to sort of handcraft something, to get in there and tweak that snare drum if you want, to get in there

Rich 15:51

to

Justin 15:51

and really create that melody or create an interesting, chord progression or whatever,

Rich 15:58

whatever,

Justin 15:59

some of those happy accidents along the way and,

Rich 16:02

Sure.

Justin 16:02

and everything like that.

Rich 16:04

And

Justin 16:04

understand

Rich 16:05

and I

Justin 16:05

that isn't a thing that everyone can experience because they haven't

Rich 16:09

they

Justin 16:10

studied music and practiced music and so on,

Rich 16:12

and so on,

Justin 16:13

but I think that

Rich 16:14

think that

Justin 16:15

importance in doing that and that that really gets at like the humanity of music, that it is this, this craft that we practice. and AI-generated music isn't that.

Rich 16:28

that.

Justin 16:28

It's just a product.

Rich 16:29

just a product.

Justin 16:30

it's like the high fructose corn syrup of music.

Rich 16:33

Yeah. Exactly. Yes. It's that.

Justin 16:36

But anyway,

Rich 16:36

yes. Yes. Oof.

Justin 16:38

We're gonna, we're gonna-- There's, there's there's so much more to talk about when it comes to AI. But,

Rich 16:43

Let me ask you

Justin 16:44

and let me ask you that, Rich. So what else beyond this,

Rich 16:49

Rich.

Justin 16:49

horror show

Rich 16:50

else beyond this- Oh, God.

Justin 16:53

that we just talked about... it does seem like the premise of a horror movie almost, but anyway. what else is going on in AI?

Rich 17:01

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, all right, shall I introduce you to the next thing that is, slowly,

Justin 17:04

Eroding

Rich 17:06

like,

Justin 17:06

eroding the, the craft of creativity and music, yeah.

Rich 17:09

Yes. Ace Studio,

Justin 17:12

again, Ace.

Rich 17:13

again, it's the Skynet of,

Justin 17:15

Exactly.

Rich 17:16

of modern music,

Justin 17:17

yep.

Rich 17:18

is going to be releasing. I don't know if it's out yet. It could be out. it's a film scoring feature,

Justin 17:23

Mm,

Rich 17:24

where it's a prompt-based film scoring feature. I think Burak, he sent us a link in our chat and that's what kinda got my attention. it was like basically a little demo of someone looking at a scene from a movie and then typing in prompts like of what they wanna hear and when, and the AI started just generating all of this like epic music, to go along with the video.

Justin 17:53

Wow. I, I

Rich 17:56

What do

Justin 17:56

I wonder if it'll ever get to a point where it doesn't even have to, be prompted. It can just

Rich 18:01

It can

Justin 18:02

quote, "watch" the video

Rich 18:03

and

Justin 18:04

sort of analyze it

Rich 18:05

We kinda have a little bit of that, to a certain degree. you know, in video games, that procedurally generated music that happens based on what you do in the game, it starts to change. So it's... I imagine perhaps that could be implemented into film.

Justin 18:20

Yeah. Yeah, I think

Rich 18:21

I think

Justin 18:22

what might be a little bit different though

Rich 18:23

different

Justin 18:24

with video games is that

Rich 18:25

is

Justin 18:26

already been created. It just gets triggered based off of different actions.

Rich 18:32

just sort of watch

Justin 18:33

the action or whatever's happening and analyze it and sort of, you know, take that as the prompt instead, to generate something.

Rich 18:42

And, you know, you could then

Justin 18:45

"Oh, I like this, I like that. Try this." And then you could prompt it once it's come up with,

Rich 18:50

it's

Justin 18:50

a- an initial state.

Rich 18:51

state.

Justin 18:52

But, but yeah, I think just the idea that, like, film scoring is now,

Rich 18:56

is now,

Justin 18:57

something that

Rich 18:58

that any,

Justin 18:59

any person could

Rich 19:01

off

Justin 19:02

off the street

Rich 19:02

could do

Justin 19:03

type in something. it's pretty mind-boggling.

Rich 19:06

the fly.

Justin 19:07

something this makes me think about, though, is that

Rich 19:10

that

Justin 19:11

we are at an in- really interesting point with all of this AI stuff in that

Rich 19:17

because we're

Justin 19:19

about just-

Rich 19:19

just

Justin 19:21

of people

Rich 19:21

people

Justin 19:22

have grown up with

Rich 19:23

up with sort

Justin 19:24

I don't know, for lack of a better word, imagination.

Rich 19:29

Yeah. Yeah.

Justin 19:29

a, what a critical component to prompting

Rich 19:32

prompting AI

Justin 19:34

is this agency and this creativity and imagination to

Rich 19:38

to

Justin 19:39

it with something.

Rich 19:40

And I

Justin 19:40

I couldn't help but wonder,

Rich 19:41

help

Justin 19:42

what happens after 50 years of all of this and people aren't reading books and watching movies and

Rich 19:50

and

Justin 19:51

creating music and painting and doing

Rich 19:53

and

Justin 19:54

these sorts of things that require, toil and craftsmanship and imagination? Like, where will that lead us?

Rich 20:02

lead us?

Justin 20:03

it's just an interesting thought experiment,

Rich 20:05

experiment I've been having about it. Yeah. Well, that's gonna lead to the remake of a bunch of movies and we're gonna have our, robot Taylor Swift, releasing her 150th album in her

Justin 20:22

Yeah.

Rich 20:23

gone. I don't know. I mean, maybe that's too dystopian.

Justin 20:26

it just, it's interesting 'cause it's like y- you know, if you do this enough,

Rich 20:31

enough, you're

Justin 20:32

really recycling. I

Rich 20:33

recycling. I mean,

Justin 20:34

speaking, all AI really

Rich 20:35

really is, is recycling.

Justin 20:37

taking the breadth of human creativity and knowledge

Rich 20:40

knowledge

Justin 20:41

and iterating on it in different ways. and what happens if that,

Rich 20:45

if that,

Justin 20:45

you know, doesn't have anything new to it and AI is just

Rich 20:50

AI just

Justin 20:50

to feed itself? it's like, whoa. You know, what happens? I don't know. But,

Rich 20:56

with,

Justin 20:57

it's pretty crazy.

Rich 20:59

So Justin, I wanna pivot a little bit here, and I wanna talk about, article I read where they were bringing up the fact that a lot of producers now in the studio are starting to use Suno and other AI songwriting, tools, to, basically generate and finish the song ideas or flesh out the song ideas before they move on to the final stage I just wanna know what your thoughts are about using Suno and other AI writing in the studio.

Justin 21:30

Yeah, I'm kind

Rich 21:31

Yeah. I'm

Justin 21:31

two minds of it.

Rich 21:32

with it.

Justin 21:33

honestly, I can see a use case

Rich 21:35

case

Justin 21:36

for

Rich 21:36

for very

Justin 21:38

very high-level producers who have deadlines and they wanna get something done quickly.

Rich 21:44

quickly.

Justin 21:44

and so maybe

Rich 21:45

so

Justin 21:46

they're coming up with

Rich 21:47

up

Justin 21:47

certain parts that they don't

Rich 21:49

they want,

Justin 21:49

necessarily have access to in the moment and they just wanna get

Rich 21:53

get

Justin 21:54

a demo or something like that to show the artists they're working with.

Rich 21:59

with.

Justin 21:59

I mean, it could certainly provide very sophisticated demo creation using tools like this. know, I think this is done

Rich 22:10

done

Justin 22:10

more and more with like filmmaking and animation that people are rendering more and more realistic

Rich 22:16

realistic

Justin 22:17

hey, this is what the scene is going to look like,

Rich 22:19

look like."

Justin 22:20

of thing. But on the other hand,

Rich 22:22

hand,

Justin 22:22

does

Rich 22:23

it does sort of,

Justin 22:25

make me worry a little bit, like the scope creep,

Rich 22:29

creep.

Justin 22:30

you will. Like it's just, it's creeping into the creativity. You know, I believe that there are

Rich 22:37

there

Justin 22:37

producers out there who are very skilled at what they do

Rich 22:40

what they

Justin 22:41

that are using these tools in

Rich 22:42

tools

Justin 22:42

utilitarian way. I believe that's true.

Rich 22:45

that's

Justin 22:45

On the other hand,

Rich 22:46

the other hand,

Justin 22:46

this tool, it's like with great

Rich 22:49

great

Justin 22:49

power comes great responsibility, right? And I think that

Rich 22:52

think that like seasoned

Justin 22:54

who have training

Rich 22:56

and so forth like

Justin 22:57

that they're wielding it with

Rich 23:00

with,

Justin 23:00

responsibility. But I think that

Rich 23:02

think that it, it's too--

Justin 23:06

ubiquitously accessible now to everyone. And so

Rich 23:10

And

Justin 23:12

you have access to the tool, I mean, you can pick it up and use it.

Rich 23:15

use it and,

Justin 23:15

I think it just

Rich 23:16

and I

Justin 23:16

opens the door of Pandora's box once again

Rich 23:19

again of like,

Justin 23:20

somebody coming in and just prompting something and saying, yeah, now I'm a quote producer. And so I think the lay person

Rich 23:28

and you can't really

Justin 23:30

discern craftsmanship and process from product,

Rich 23:34

product-

Justin 23:35

right? So the output

Rich 23:36

output

Justin 23:39

a song that was

Rich 23:40

that

Justin 23:40

handcrafted by a producer versus a song that was prompted by someone.

Rich 23:44

by

Justin 23:44

Most people, they're not going to really

Rich 23:46

really tell the difference

Justin 23:48

or be able to tell the difference.

Rich 23:49

being able to tell that one.

Justin 23:50

so, yeah, it does give me

Rich 23:52

give me

Justin 23:53

some pause.

Rich 23:54

pause.

Justin 23:55

You know, I

Rich 23:56

I,

Justin 23:56

I use AI tools sometimes in Logic Pro.

Rich 23:59

Pro.

Justin 24:00

We've talked about it a lot on this podcast, Logic Pro Drummer.

Rich 24:02

drummer.

Justin 24:03

It's a really terrific tool. But I think the

Rich 24:05

I think the

Justin 24:06

difference, and I've read this somewhere too, that like people are more

Rich 24:10

more

Justin 24:11

to music

Rich 24:12

music

Justin 24:12

has human involvement.

Rich 24:15

you know,

Justin 24:16

key differentiator is that there is a human being involved and is working with the tool and using it as a tool and not just hitting a button and saying, okay, I'm done.

Rich 24:27

Yeah, I think that's the biggest

Justin 24:28

Right.

Rich 24:30

literally will create the whole song for you from start to

Justin 24:33

Yeah. Yeah.

Rich 24:34

You know, it's one thing using AI to, take out the tedium of some of the processes involved

Justin 24:42

We talked about, I think in the last episode, we talked about it was like AIODE,

Rich 24:46

episode we talked about

Justin 24:48

and,

Rich 24:48

AI

Justin 24:49

and that was

Rich 24:49

And that

Justin 24:50

like Logic Pro Drummer, but for

Rich 24:51

but

Justin 24:52

any instrument.

Rich 24:53

And

Justin 24:53

you know, I think that's a good way to be like,

Rich 24:55

to be like,

Justin 24:56

I wanna hear what this melody sounds like with a trumpet. I don't have a trumpet player, but this will sound ultra-realistic like an actual trumpet player,

Rich 25:03

player

Justin 25:03

just so I can have that to show a real trumpet player." So they're like, "Okay, I kinda get what

Rich 25:08

kinda get what

Justin 25:08

you're going for. Here's what I would do as an actual trumpet player," right? Like,

Rich 25:12

right?

Justin 25:13

that kind of thing I think is fine. That's a very utilitarian kind of tactical approach to using it.

Rich 25:20

it. But like,

Justin 25:20

you know, of course somebody could just slap that AI-generated trumpet line in a song and be like, "Here you go. This is it."

Rich 25:27

Yeah, I mean, we kind of been doing it for a long time now. Some of the bands and musicians we love use, been using drum machines. Like, I love Sisters of Mercy. All of the drums on all of the Sisters of Mercy stuff is all from drum machines. The Type O Negative "October Rust" album, all of it is, programmed drums, right? We've been using synthesized instruments on a synthesizer. Like, some people would even argue, "Hey, like, you're, you're playing, like, an instrument on

Justin 25:55

Yeah. Yeah.

Rich 25:56

the real instrument," I guess where the line, I feel the line is crossed for me is It's one thing to, know, someone who does electronic music who's taking, a loop and manipulating that loop and doing things to it to make it sound interesting and to, bring a new kind of life to it that fits the aesthetic of the song versus just being like, "Oh, here's a string of loops. Let me just put them all together. Done." "Let me have the AI just string them all together, and I don't even have to do that much."

Justin 26:26

again, human involvement, right? Like, that's kind of what you're touching on here that's the

Rich 26:31

Absolutely.

Justin 26:32

another thing that I think we should talk about kind of in conjunction with this that kinda leads to the next topic is the idea of AI artists and the signing of AI artists to labels and so on and so forth. So Rich, what do you think of this?

Rich 26:53

First of all, I think it's ridiculous to even call whatever it is that they're signing an artist. I think the term artist has been weakened and, diluted so much. I would even call to question, the way they classify some of the music that's on the streaming platform as, artists. especially with regards to the AI stuff, I don't know. I mean, I guess it's still art. But, anyways, the bigger topic that you bring up with regards to the signing of these, I mean, that's kind of very disappointing, 'cause, like, as someone, myself who has been involved with music for a long time and knowing many musicians and dealing with a lot of emerging artists through the years and people who have toiled and, and worked to try to move up the ladder in the music industry, this is kind of like, like another slap in the face. I view it as another slap in the face because It's like, "Oh, we're just gonna overlook all you guys who are actually doing stuff out there, we're just gonna go with this artificial thing, and use that instead." It's like, the insult knows no bounds.

Justin 29:09

Yeah.

Rich 29:10

with the way that sometimes things are handled in the music industry, and this is just another one of those things that really I feel is, like, an insult.

Justin 29:17

Yeah, I think my

Rich 29:19

My

Justin 29:19

perhaps cynical view of this is that it's profits over people. if you boil it down,

Rich 29:25

down,

Justin 29:26

it-- this is about making money. Like,

Rich 29:29

making money.

Justin 29:29

it just is. Like, there's the...

Rich 29:32

they're... It's an altruistic thing too, and they're generating AI music

Justin 29:35

why else would they be doing this? they're not doing this for the good of humanity and to enrich the lives

Rich 29:41

lives

Justin 29:42

listeners everywhere. I

Rich 29:43

and

Justin 29:43

course that's how it's going to be marketed, right? That's all marketing speak. But the reality is that this is being done to make a profit, and I think this isn't really new in the music industry or really any industry. But, you know, if we just look at the music industry, I think it... over time, if you look back through music history,

Rich 30:03

history,

Justin 30:04

especially in popular music over the past 100

Rich 30:07

100 years or

Justin 30:08

I think

Rich 30:09

I think

Justin 30:09

there has been this sort of

Rich 30:11

of

Justin 30:11

narrative of exploiting artists, to make more and more of a profit. There's always,

Rich 30:16

There's always, like, some

Justin 30:18

In the corner who's there to,

Rich 30:20

to,

Justin 30:20

see how he can maximize his profits or the profits of the record label or whatever. And so

Rich 30:25

And so,

Justin 30:26

I think this is just the modern incarnation of that.

Rich 30:28

of that.

Justin 30:29

mean, that's all this really

Rich 30:30

really

Justin 30:31

like,

Rich 30:31

is

Justin 30:31

how can we make

Rich 30:33

make

Justin 30:33

a ton of money with this thing

Rich 30:35

thing

Justin 30:36

out

Rich 30:36

cut out

Justin 30:37

the musician? I mean, it's kind of insane you think about it. Like, wow, we can now--

Rich 30:42

now...

Justin 30:43

guys, we can make music and a lot of money and involve, like, no musicians whatsoever. Like, the inconvenience of having people or musicians involved is now cut out completely. It's

Rich 30:56

completely.

Justin 30:58

and again, like the title of this episode r- is "Resistance Futile" or "Resistance Futile?" question mark. It's

Rich 31:04

is Futile. It's like,

Justin 31:05

this is where it comes down to,

Rich 31:06

down to, like,

Justin 31:08

what do you as the consumer want, or what's important to you as the consumer? And so, we have the ability as consumers to make this choice

Rich 31:18

choice

Justin 31:18

inevitability or not.

Rich 31:20

You are correct, and I think this is the perfect opportunity for us to cool things down a little bit and perhaps pivot

Justin 31:27

Slow it down.

Rich 31:28

Slow down. and can you talk to us about what hope do we have out there, Justin?

Justin 31:35

Well, one interesting thing that is happening to kind of push back against this AI onslaught

Rich 31:42

onslaught is Deezer,

Justin 31:44

which is a French-based global music streaming service.

Rich 31:47

streaming service,

Justin 31:48

they are adding AI tags because there's an estimated 50,000 to 75,000 fully AI-generated songs uploaded to streaming services every day.

Rich 32:00

And so,

Justin 32:01

I think this is

Rich 32:01

I think this is sort

Justin 32:02

Y- you had mentioned food before. It reminds me of that, where,

Rich 32:05

of

Justin 32:05

food is now labeled like, you know, 100% organic, or like contains high fructose corn syrup or whatever. You

Rich 32:11

whatever.

Justin 32:12

want to be informed about What they're putting in their bodies,

Rich 32:15

And

Justin 32:15

this, I think, allows us to be informed about what we're putting in our ears,

Rich 32:19

ears

Justin 32:19

to speak.

Rich 32:20

So, you know,

Justin 32:21

it's, it's a good thing, I think. you know, it's some degree of notice

Rich 32:26

notice

Justin 32:26

administration around this, I think is important.

Rich 32:30

Will the other streaming platforms follow suit? That is to be seen, but I like this step that Deezer has taken. It's a step in the right direction. It's at least one glimmer of light.

Justin 32:44

And I would love to hear from people. You know, if you're listening to this podcast, and you know of anything, in relation to what we're talking about here, like this specific AI,

Rich 32:53

AI,

Justin 32:54

you know, tagging thing. Like, is Spotify doing it?

Rich 32:57

doing it?

Justin 32:57

do you know?

Rich 32:58

you know?

Justin 32:59

we would love input from our listeners about any of these topics. and adding on to what we've talked about. Like, we're just here just talking about it,

Rich 33:09

about it.

Justin 33:09

but there's so much to unpack that we can't cover in a brief 30-ish minute podcast. So please,

Rich 33:16

30-minute-ish

Justin 33:17

something or have an opinion,

Rich 33:19

opinion,

Justin 33:20

up on Instagram or, you know, email us or whatever. We wanna hear from you.

Rich 33:25

Yeah. Is there more hope out

Justin 33:27

Yeah.

Rich 33:27

Does anyone know of anything that's a light at the end of the

Justin 33:31

Yeah.

Rich 33:32

let us

Justin 33:33

And what do you do to resist? let us know in the comments.

Rich 33:36

That would be a great, episode, I think, is for us to talk more about what we can do as the average music

Justin 33:46

Yeah.

Rich 33:49

to kind of, right the ship.

Justin 33:51

Yeah, I think it's just, making the choice and being informed, I think too. It's just like the food we eat. We wanna be informed about what we're eating, so why not about what we're listening to? So yeah, I think that's a good idea.

Rich 34:04

that's a good idea.

Justin 34:05

I think we've reached

Rich 34:06

think we've reached

Justin 34:07

our threshold here, our limit for what we can rant about.

Rich 34:10

this a non-explicit,

Justin 34:13

Yeah. Yeah, if we go,

Rich 34:15

podcast,

Justin 34:15

go any further, we risk, being censored here. but yeah, what an interesting episode. So we talked about, A studio and kind of what they're doing in AI music

Rich 34:27

AI

Justin 34:27

regarding the voice, being able to clone the voice,

Rich 34:30

as

Justin 34:30

scoring

Rich 34:31

stories

Justin 34:31

creating tools

Rich 34:32

tools

Justin 34:33

that,

Rich 34:33

that,

Justin 34:34

as easy as possible. we also talked about, You know, producers using AI tools, to supplement their craft as a producer and some of the ramifications around that. We talked about AI, quote unquote, artists, we'll say,

Rich 34:51

How

Justin 34:52

and how those are being signed now.

Rich 34:54

now.

Justin 34:55

we also talked about tagging of AI music

Rich 34:58

and,

Justin 34:59

can help us discern what it is we're actually listening to, whether it was created by a person

Rich 35:05

person

Justin 35:06

or it was just an AI product.

Rich 35:08

product.

Justin 35:09

a lot of topics, covered here today.

Rich 35:12

today,

Justin 35:13

like I said earlier, we'd love to hear from any of you listening. what is your opinion of all of this? What additional insight or information do you have that we might be able to share

Rich 35:23

to

Justin 35:23

on the podcast? But with that, we'll close things down. Rich,

Rich 35:28

Rich,

Justin 35:28

thank you as always for joining me.

Rich 35:30

Thank you. Great

Justin 35:31

Yes, we'll catch you in the next episode. Thanks everyone for listening. Bye for now.

Rich 35:36

next for listening. Bye.