From Manipulation to Domestic Terrorism With Sara Pitcher : Part 1

[CONTENT WARNING]: Discussions of childhood sexual abuse, emotional and verbal abuse, domestic violence.

Today Jan is joined by Sara Pitcher for part one of this two part series of how a woman went from childhood abuse to a manipulative and abusive husband who eventually attempted to take her life. 

If you or someone you know is experiencing any type of intimate abuse call the National Domestic Violence Hotline @ 800-799-7233 or text START to 88788

The Jan Broberg Show and everyone at the foundation believe, hear, and support all survivors. Thank you for listening!

Watch Sara’s episode on IDtv’s ‘Evil Lives Here’ S14E8 "Three-and-A-half Hours of Hell"

This episode is sponsored by Betterhelp Online Therapy. Get in touch with the right therapist today! Use our link to get 10% off your first month: www.betterhelp.com/jan

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Transcript

Jan (00:32.11)
Today, I have Sarah Pitcher sitting right here in front of me, ready to tell us her story. Thank you so much, Sarah, for joining our show.

Sara Pitcher (00:44.184)
Thank you for having me.

Jan (00:46.506)
You know, I think the burning question is, how is it possible that someone can

make their way into your life without there being any telltale signs. How did he do it?

Sara Pitcher (01:11.18)
He really checked all my boxes and really answered all my prayers and my dreams.

Jan (01:20.326)
Okay, so when you check all the boxes and you answer all the prayers and all the dreams, that might be a red flag, but they never look like red flags, do they? They look like the most charming, wonderful, helpful, I'm going to meet all your needs, right? And so

Sara Pitcher (01:31.581)
No.

Sara Pitcher (01:42.252)
Yes, they do.

Jan (01:47.71)
I want to go back and go to your childhood, some of your earliest memories, because I do believe that these kinds of stories have a connection to, often at least, to abuse that happened and kind of set you up, maybe even set you up for having the hopes and dreams and prayers that you were offering.

Can you just take us back and tell us a little bit about that childhood experience that might have made you vulnerable and certainly looking okay? Thank you.

Sara Pitcher (02:13.644)
Yes. Yeah.

Sara Pitcher (02:21.604)
Absolutely.

Yeah, so I was raised by my mom. My dad really wasn't in my life much. He left pretty much when I was born, was kind of in and out, and I think they ended up getting divorced when I was about two, two and a half. He wasn't in my life growing up, was really heavy into drugs and alcohol and in and out of jail.

He came back into my life when I was early, teens, maybe 11 or 12, and then he ended up dying from a drug and alcohol overdose. So I had an amazing mother and an amazing relationship with my mom, but I didn't know my dad. And I didn't know who he was, you know, he was not in my life. I had a few pictures of him in my baby books.

And then when I finally reconnected with him, he was in jail and wrote letters back and forth. And I think he did the best he could with trying to love me and trying to be there for me. But it pushed me far away from my faith because he would send me.

letters of Bible verses which is at the time knowing now looking back all he had to give but that time pushed me far away from God because I just wanted my dad. So

Jan (04:03.434)
right? I think that's a I think that's really an interesting thing that when um when what we want most is not what happens first that everything else that they maybe are trying to do by sharing you know an article or a spiritual message or a bible verse it just is meaningless and it also it feels as if

we do that like that's what human beings do they push it away even farther because they're not getting what the first what the first need is they're not being met with that first need yeah that's a very common thing okay so he's you know trying but this isn't having the right effect what happens next

Sara Pitcher (04:42.18)
So.

Sara Pitcher (04:53.668)
So before that my mom remarried and she remarried my stepdad. He was an alcoholic. He had three sons and there was definitely some anger and some alcoholism with him. A lot of angry outbursts, a lot of just fear and there was sexual abuse between.

him and the stepbrothers and my brother. And so it was just a not a good situation. And my mom finally left that she gave him an option of drinking the bottle or being with her. And he drank the whole bottle in front of her. And so she packed us up.

Jan (05:40.51)
Wow. So sexual abuse that happened to not only his own children, is that what you said? To your stepbrothers?

Sara Pitcher (05:51.193)
It was between my brother and him and me and my stepdad and then my brothers, stepbrothers and I.

Jan (05:58.834)
Okay, so you experience sexual abuse from a whole, you know, that's a whole lot of people, including him, stepbrothers. And what about your brother? How has he?

Sara Pitcher (06:12.26)
So he was kind of in the mix. It was kind of a circle of all of us. So, and you know, the funny, not funny thing, I guess, but the thing that I've been able to kind of piece together is that everything has been males in my life, you know, abandonment, trauma, abuse, you know, angry, fear, it has all been done by males.

Jan (06:38.562)
the hands of men. Yeah and I think that we know that all of these things happen to boys and probably to you know even older full adult men experience abuse and various things but it is not uncommon for it to be heavily male and

I'm not sure if that's part of the culture that we live in because we live basically in a rape culture because nothing happens to, you know, boys will be boys has been kind of a statement that, you know, and I've heard it so much from.

various stories that I've heard from members of my online community. They're all survivors. And it does happen. Women can be manipulators. They can be abusers. They can be groomers. They can do terrible things. But it feels as if it's heavily weighted on the male side. And I know that is one of my

expert friends who was a detective and now is a very, very skilled trauma informed specialist who goes and teaches people, you know, from the U.S. military to police departments to, you know, concerned social services workers, teaches trauma how to actually, you know,

interview people who have suffered through these things. There's just so many misnomers about you know men protecting other men because let's say you're the good guy that shows up at the door as the police officer or the social worker but the abuser is the one who answers the door and now you're male to male. There is something so uncomfortable I think at the core.

Jan (08:39.694)
of that conversation that oftentimes it's like, oh yeah, those kids really do have an overactive imagination or oh, you spanked them, but nothing, but now they're, they're doing this to get back at you. And it's just not true. None of that is true, but it is really one of the most difficult conversations for men to have because they really don't want to believe that other men can do what they do. And, and that's where all the abuse, not all.

but the majority of the abusers and the manipulators are men.

Jan (09:18.646)
So now you've had this, you know, really horrific experience with all kinds of abuse. You have abandonment, you know, issues. You definitely feel the neglect, you know, that happens when you don't get that first need met, which is that relationship that you needed so desperately with your...

your biological father, mom's working a lot, and now all of this abuse has happened. Where do you go next? Where does Sarah pick up the pieces next?

Sara Pitcher (09:53.644)
Well, so my biological father came back into my life. And after that, he ended up dying from a drug and alcohol overdose. So I never really got that relationship with a dad, you know? So I sought a lot for men to accept me, for men to like me. I tried to do a lot of things that...

you know, I look back and know that it was trying to get my worth from men, trying to get, you know, acceptance from men, because I never had that. So I, throughout high school and all of that, I grew up in the church, but I definitely strayed far from the church with my father writing Bible verses after Bible verses and, you know,

that pushing me far away from God and then seeking my worth and men and men continuing to hurt me. I, you know, in high school I just kind of fell far away from my faith and the church and, you know, just continued to just try to seek my worth.

Jan (11:13.498)
Yeah and I think we do that for a lot of different reasons. You've outlined some of the most important reasons but it really is like you're set up not only because you experience sexual assault and abuse as a young girl. So that sets you up to think this must be all I'm worth is this body, this thing you know that I carry with me that's being harmed. But there's also all

And so what you've described is just honestly like anybody who might be listening today, if this is your belief that you are only worth what men think of you and that they want you, that they are attracted to you, that whatever all of those very nuanced things are to just know.

that is not the sum total of your worth. And it's coming from a place that is an unhealthy view of ourselves. And obviously getting back to health takes a lot of, it takes therapy, it takes work on our parts and we don't even know we're doing it yet. We don't even know that that's what's happening. So you're in the middle of doing all of that. And then somebody answers all your,

your prayers and dreams. Somebody comes into your life. Now, have you had some other relationships that had you kind of indicated that had ended sort of not great? You know, you had a few, but then this was kind of a singular, long-going, this is the real story here that happens.

Sara Pitcher (12:39.735)
Mm-hmm.

Sara Pitcher (12:51.948)
Yeah, I think I...

Sara Pitcher (12:59.676)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I had definitely dated, you know, had probably more toxic relationships, you know, I definitely became the rescuer, the fixer, you know, the empathetic person that people sought out or looked for. And I didn't necessarily know that at that time, you know, I've done a lot of work and healing and

you know, learning about myself, but definitely those toxic relationships and toxic men were kind of drawn to me. I did, it was interesting in high school, I always felt like I was that person that, you know, the men wanted and I wanted to be that woman, but after high school, I kind of went the other way and started gaining weight and started, I think,

not knowing, thinking that if I didn't look good, or if I had more weight on me, then the men wouldn't look at me like that. And so it was almost like reverse psychology. If you put the weight on, then you're not going to have those men look at you. You're not going to have those people. So you'll get more of a safe relationship because someone will truly look at you for your inside instead of your outside.

Jan (14:30.238)
Yeah, and I think there again, you're really pointing to something that so many experience that, you know, this is almost a way to protect myself from the from the bad things. And yet, and you want people to know your insides. I know at some point you actually went through a real a big weight loss as well. And is this before the

Sara Pitcher (14:41.741)
Yes.

Sara Pitcher (14:50.446)
Yes.

Jan (14:55.458)
relationship or whatever however you want to call that. No it's not. Okay interesting.

Sara Pitcher (14:57.117)
No.

Sara Pitcher (15:00.624)
No, it wasn't. I had lost, I wasn't as heavy as I was once I started losing the weight and lost the full 83 pounds. But when I met my now ex-husband, I was pretty heavy, heavier than I had been in a long time. And he accepted me for that. And so that was one of the boxes, one of the things that...

I wanted and I wanted to be healthier. And so I did end up losing a little bit of weight for our wedding. But it was really the program that, you know, I now coach and I live and that transformed my life really was what gave me my confidence back to be able to leave the toxic marriage that I was.

Jan (15:38.484)
Mm-hmm.

Jan (15:57.35)
So can you describe how it started when you met him and how, you know, can you take us through the as much in detail as you're comfortable doing how it unfolded so that so many others can see themselves in what you have experienced and now you've put out on the media like you can watch you can watch Sarah's whole um not whole story because nothing that's done in you know a media

Sara Pitcher (16:23.937)
Yeah

Jan (16:26.794)
hour and a half, whatever it was, it still doesn't tell your whole story. That's why we get to have you here on a podcast where we can hear from you, from the things that got left out or that were misconstrued, because sometimes they do. They do a good job at telling a story, but oftentimes the nuances aren't there. And that's where we learn things about ourselves. So if you could just describe how that relationship started, how it went, and just take us through all the way through the assaults and everything that happened.

Sara Pitcher (16:56.02)
Yeah, how much time do we have now? There's a lot.

Jan (16:56.158)
If you wouldn't mind.

Jan (17:00.738)
I know again, that is a lot. But again, you're going to touch on the things that maybe you couldn't see on the iDiscovery show. You know, Evil Lives Here is where your story is. I don't know which season that was because I just went in and watched your

Sara Pitcher (17:14.877)
It was the last season, I think 13, I think it was.

Jan (17:17.882)
13 or 14. Okay. All right. In that season. Anyway, okay. If they know your name, Sarah Pitcher, they can find the story because that's how I did, how I found it. Yes. So when you talk about it, you're going to give us different nuances. You can give us the big headlines, but also just what was going on in your heart and mind through these things, because people often say, why do people, why do they stay even one second longer?

Sara Pitcher (17:27.68)
Yes, absolutely. Yes. Yeah.

Jan (17:48.106)
And that's what we need to understand so that we can recognize what's actually happening.

Sara Pitcher (17:50.339)
Yeah.

Sara Pitcher (17:54.592)
Yeah, so I had been, you know, dating on and off and I really was wanting to find that person, um, you know, coming from a broken home, coming from a divorced mom and dad. Um, you know, I had kind of found my faith again. Um, it was more my faith than it was going to church because my mom wanted me to, you know, and so I had kind of had a relationship with Jesus and

I decided one day that I was going to post online, that I was looking for a godly man, someone that had his values and beliefs based on Jesus and the Bible, that went to church, and just listed out a lot of different things that I was looking for in a man. And I had someone answer. I had lots of different people answer, but I had one that kind of stood out.

And that was Sean. We started talking. We started dating. He was a truck driver, semi truck driver, and we talked on and off. We started dating. I was actually going through counseling before I had met him and was kind of at a really good place in my life. I would say everything was probably

not perfect, but everything was great. When I met him, I was in a really great place in all of my life, financially, mentally successful and everything I was doing. And so I just was kind of looking for that missing.

Jan (19:30.798)
you had started your work life, you had graduated, sorry to interrupt you, I just want to kind of give people the age, the timeline, because I think people think, oh, grooming and manipulation and all the things that you went through and you're going to describe to us. Yeah, I can see how that happens when somebody's this age, but not when they get into their, they don't see that it absolutely happens to full-grown functioning adults who have been on

Sara Pitcher (19:34.403)
Yes.

Jan (19:58.678)
to their own healing from, you know, the childhood and the experiences you had there. So you're about 20... I don't know. Oh, were you that? Okay. I thought it was...

Sara Pitcher (20:07.052)
was early 30s, mid 30s. Yeah, I remember so I deemed this phrase. When I turned 33, I said, you know, 33 is going to be all about me. And I started kind of really seeking what did I want to do? You know, what did I want to do with my life? And I went back to ballroom dancing. It's something that I love a passion of mine. And so I was doing that, you know, I was getting out, I was doing all the things that I wanted to do, you know.

And so it just seemed like I was missing that one person, you know, that plus one or that person that was gonna be there for me. And I knew that I wanted to kind of change, you know, the history of my life and I wanted to meet that person and I wanted to be married forever. And, you know, it was till death do us part. And, you know, I just wanted to make it different for my children and my future, you know.

So that's kind of what I was looking for. And I felt like I had prayed, I felt like I had put that out there and that God was gonna bring me the right person. So we met, things clicked, everything seemed to be what I was looking for. We enjoyed being around each other, we enjoyed being together, we enjoyed doing different things together. And so...

things moved quickly. He moved in, there were just a lot of things where he had just moved out, was on the road and started to not be off the road. He was just doing nighttime drives. And so he was staying in a extended suite type apartment looking for another one.

since things were going so good, we decided to kind of move in together just so we could have more time together when he was home. And things went great. Things were good, things were great. We didn't fight really. It just seemed like for the first, I'd say five or six months, that everything was perfect. He was the perfect person.

Jan (22:31.018)
And that and clarifying that the five or six months after he had moved in were good. And you had met him before that and had some months before that, obviously, to get to know him. Okay. All right. Okay. Thank you.

Sara Pitcher (22:36.396)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sara Pitcher (22:40.864)
Yes. Yeah. So, you know, things had been good. I mean, we had the little tips here and there, but nothing big, nothing bad or anything like that. And so, you know, once things started to kind of go wrong or go different, it was easy for him to justify it or easy for him to be able to come up with a reason.

I think the first thing that came up was he had told everybody that he was adopted. And I had come to find out that he wasn't adopted. So that was a very interesting, I guess, conclusion or, you know, thing that I found out from his mother. Yeah. Because it was almost like a shock. But he was very good at...

Jan (23:31.058)
revelation. Yeah.

Thank you.

Sara Pitcher (23:40.484)
kind of manipulating why and how he thought that and why he had thought that. That...

Jan (23:47.266)
So he had a story to tell you why he said that and why he thought that even though you now know from his mother it's not true that he lied. But he has a story that it's not a lie for these reasons. So again, they always have a story, always ready to go.

Sara Pitcher (23:55.062)
Right.

Sara Pitcher (24:00.832)
Yes, yes, very, very good stories. There were multiple times where things like that would happen. There was an instance where there was a mentor that he had and we were talking to his mentor, kind of working through some things and his mentor had mentioned something about him coming over to his house one day.

and he was so angry with his ex-wife that he had brought some gasoline, some trash bags, and some duct tape and he was going to go kill her. And you know, it's so interesting because I remember that and then I remember him saying, oh, you know, that was, he totally made that exaggerated more than it really was, you know.

I was angry, I was upset, you know, obviously I wasn't gonna do anything. I came to his house and, you know, had him talk to me and, you know, but he was just able to make it seem like it was nothing, you know? And it almost like went in and out of my mind until, you know, I started kind of reliving the whole relationship when I was kind of interviewing for the show and that was one of the things that.

Jan (25:08.428)
Yeah.

Jan (25:21.23)
Mm-hmm.

Sara Pitcher (25:22.904)
just popped into my head as I was thinking about different signs and different things that had happened in the relationship. And it just, looking back now, how big it really was knowing what I know now, but then how small he made it seem and how, you know, he even had a really good story because we stopped talking to that guy. And he had a story that, you know, the guy accused him of.

you know, talking to his wife too much and he didn't want him to talk to her anymore. And so he just thought it would be best that he didn't talk to him anymore either because it just seemed like, you know, he was kind of coming at him and almost made me feel sorry for him, you know? And so it wasn't like, yeah. Yeah, so, you know, you don't.

Jan (26:07.956)
Oh, yes. Fantastic. That's a really good one right there. Yes.

Sara Pitcher (26:15.208)
you feel sorry for them so you don't really want to question it because you're like, oh, you know, you lost a really good friend. I'm so sorry, you know. So it's

Jan (26:24.152)
And isn't it interesting how we have that little saying, you know, hindsight is 2020. And yet people really don't get it. Hindsight is 2020. So people will see your story or my story or somebody's story and they'll be like, and they have all these things to say about it. But when you walk through what you

Sara Pitcher (26:29.1)
Hi.

Jan (26:43.026)
you experienced in the moment with those stories and the tugging on your heartstrings and oh, you know, pulling out the sympathy card and getting you to feel sorry for I mean, feel it felt real. It felt real. That's why the story you were like, I wasn't even thinking about that story. And then oh, yeah, when I was getting ready to interview for this show. Oh, yeah, what about that story where he had the trash bags and the duct tape and, you know, he's in gasoline. I'm so mad at her.

Sara Pitcher (27:06.552)
rights.

Jan (27:09.322)
And you know, you're like, Whoa, I had kind of even forgotten that because the other story was so convincing. I mean, truly, oh, just makes me so furious, which is why we have to unearth these, these tactics, these things that they are doing to get us into positions and places that we can't imagine we ever could have been in. Okay.

Sara Pitcher (27:09.736)
Mm-hmm.

Sara Pitcher (27:15.713)
Right.

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Sara Pitcher (27:35.96)
Right. Yeah, no, and I don't think, I mean, I didn't really know what a healthy relationship was either, you know, because I didn't have examples of that. And, you know, they don't have that in school. There's not like a relationship 101 where, you know, everybody goes through and it's like, hey, these are green flags, these are red flags, these are, you know, and so that's kind of one of my passions in the future is to help people learn.

Jan (27:36.702)
Continue, sorry. I'm not gonna interrupt you anymore. I'm going all the way through because it's so good

Jan (27:45.388)
Right.

Sara Pitcher (28:06.272)
what are healthy relationships and what it looks like before you even get into a relationship because.

Jan (28:06.71)
Yes.

Jan (28:12.146)
And that should start like when you're 12 at 10. I don't know, there could be something that should be, you know, it doesn't have to be a, you know, a romantic physical relationship, but relationship with parents. If this is happening, this is wrong. This is not healthy or this is, whatever the right language would be, but man, it should start, that should be absolutely a part of our curriculum. Otherwise, you know, kids that grow up that are born into, you know, they don't know. You don't know.

Sara Pitcher (28:15.149)
Yes.

Sara Pitcher (28:23.034)
Mm-hmm.

Sara Pitcher (28:32.973)
Oh yeah.

Jan (28:41.318)
I love that. Oh, please, let's work together on that. Let's make your dream come true.

Sara Pitcher (28:43.776)
Yeah, I would love that. Yeah. And I mean, even, you know, even parents or kids that are growing up in a good home where good communication and all of that, they somehow seek or want that kind of dangerous or that, you know, something that is a little bit different than what they had. And so they get into that and then it kind of goes from there. And

I think once you, you know, the saying love is blind is true, you know, and I know we like to say it and put it on shirts and all this stuff and make it all foo foo, but it is, you know, and I think once you fall in love with someone, it's hard to see those red flags. And so that's where we have to start helping people see like, oh, it's a red flag. It's not that big of a deal or you know, it's

Jan (29:33.198)
Totally.

Sara Pitcher (29:40.708)
It'll change or things will be different. That's not the truth, you know, but it's hard to be in love and see that and understand that. It's easy, like you said, for people to say, you know, I read some comments on my story on investigation discovery and people were like, oh, you know, I would have left after this. And it was like, yeah, I don't think you would have, you know, because you're not in that situation. You're not in love. You're not, you know, being told the stories you're being told.

Jan (29:44.438)
Right.

Sara Pitcher (30:10.216)
So, you know.

Jan (30:10.954)
Yeah, the stories that fit every dream and hope and prayer you ever had and offered. So, okay, so now back to that, back to where things were starting to, sorry, I interrupted your flow. It's going really well. Yeah.

Sara Pitcher (30:16.652)
Yes. Yep.

Sara Pitcher (30:23.98)
Yeah, that's okay. No. So we, yeah, we got into some fights. We ended up moving out.

with each other for about six weeks or so. And, you know, we talked on and off throughout that period. You know, I think if you watch the story, there's a part in the story where he, you know, we had gone to premarital counseling because we had already been kind of talking about getting married and, you know, the marriage counselor said, hey, I don't think this is gonna work out. You know, I'd advise you guys not to get married. And so we...

ended up talking and we had decided that we were going to kind of go our separate ways. So we went home and I said, okay, you know, we need to kind of figure this out. Like, you know, this is my apartment. Where are you going to go? What are you going to do? And he was like, oh, turn the TV on. Like, we'll figure it out later. And I was like, no, we need to kind of discuss this. We need to figure this out because we both just agreed this wasn't, this isn't what we want. And, you know, the counselor told us that we were

it's not gonna work and so we need to kind of figure this out and you know he was like oh just leave just leave you know it's fine like we'll figure it out like leave it alone and um that's when he went in the bathroom you know and cut his wrist and kind of created this drama around it that took the focus away from him moving out to him and what he had done you know um but he did

Jan (32:00.778)
Well, and it's another empathy card. It's another way to get your, right? I mean, that's an extreme tactic, but that's a tactic. You know, we can't do this. I don't want him to kill himself, you know, because of us breaking up. I mean, that's all playing into that psychological terror. That's how he did it, yeah.

Sara Pitcher (32:03.394)
Oh yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Sara Pitcher (32:10.476)
Yes.

Sara Pitcher (32:22.796)
Yes, yes. So we did end up splitting up. We talked and it just kind of seemed like he had changed. So we ended up moving into another apartment and I would say things were fairly good. You know, we had our fights on and off but it wasn't anything bad. So for the most part I kind of had felt like he had changed. He was working on things. Things were good. So

you know, we wanted to get engaged. I still had a really close relationship with my mom. I still, to this day, do. You know, she's my best friend and kind of my rock and my supporter and someone that's always been there for me. So I had said to him, you know, you need to kind of, I don't have an ad, so you need to, you know, reach out to her and get her approval, you know, for her blessing for us getting married. And...

I think we were back together probably about four months or so. And she hadn't really seen the signs that he had changed. She wanted to kind of see more signs. So when he reached out to her, she kind of said that she didn't think we were ready. We kind of needed a little bit more time, which really didn't make him happy at all. He wanted to get married, wanted to be together. And so

He wanted to ask me to marry him. He had this all planned out, but because she said no, he didn't. And I think that created a wedge between him and her. He already felt very threatened by her and the close relationship that we had. He would use the Bible verse that talks about, leaving your mother and father and clinging to somebody else.

that you're not always supposed to have that relationship with your parents and that you're supposed to find that person that two become one. And he was really good at pointing out all the things that benefited him in the Bible. So we did end up getting engaged. It wasn't that summer. It was about four or five months after that summer. We got engaged and...

Jan (34:27.767)
Yeah.

Sara Pitcher (34:42.44)
You know, it was good. Things were going along. We were planning a wedding. I bought a house and we were moving in. We were fixing it up. It was an old, historic house. And so we had started fixing it up and doing remodeling. My mom moved in for a little while with us and then ended up moving to Texas to help my grandma and kind of be her caregiver. But.

I enjoyed, I enjoyed the fact that my mom was there and that my fiance was there and it was kind of the two people that I had loved and wanted to be together. And my mom accepted him and took him in as a son and loved him, but he definitely didn't feel that way about her. He was very threatened by her. And he would get mad that she would know things before he would know. Or...

she would say something to him and he hadn't even heard it from me yet, you know, and so he would get really angry and mad about that. So that was just interesting to me, you know, I wasn't really sure why he was so threatened because it was my mom, you know, it was, I mean, somebody that loved him and loved me and, you know, she wasn't a threat. And it

Jan (36:03.095)
Yeah.

Sara Pitcher (36:09.604)
He was very good at wanting all of my time, but not making me feel like he was keeping me from my friends. You know, it was more, oh I'd love to spend this night with you. You know, I know your friends really want to go out with you or you want to go do something, but you know, we haven't gotten a lot of time to spend together because I've been working and I'm so sorry, but you know, we have

Sara Pitcher (36:39.56)
you know, let's go make a plan. And so little by little, he started kind of pulling me away from my friends, pulling me away from my ballroom dancing, pulling me away from the different things that I liked.

Jan (36:53.818)
So that isolation piece, that's part of manipulation. That's definitely what he was doing. Let's isolate her for sure.

Sara Pitcher (36:57.537)
Yes.

Sara Pitcher (37:01.292)
Yes, absolutely. So we ended up getting married and it was a great wedding. It was everything I could have wanted and envisioned. And we had a candle lighting ceremony. We had a sand ceremony where we combined our sand. We both humbled ourselves and washed each other's feet.

We had a first dance that was like a slow first dance and then it broke out into, you know, like kind of hip hop dancing and it was really cute. And, you know, it was everything I wanted. And I kind of thought that I had it all. We went on our honeymoon, things were great. And not, we were back maybe three or four days and we were doing a dynamic marriage class. And...

we were actually on our way to the class and I had some flowers and a garden in my backyard that I had asked a neighbor to watch while we were on our honeymoon and it was actually one of my mom's friends and somebody that she had met and you know talked to and I had mentioned to him that you know I think it would be a nice gesture to you know maybe cook a mistake or you know

give him a dinner or something as a way of saying thank you for watering our plants. You know, didn't come in our house, nothing. Just like he went outside, watered our plants, watered our garden, and he blew up and just went off and was so angry and so upset that I had even asked him to water our plants that I had suggested that we make him dinner. And so we went to this class and he...

Jan (38:54.19)
Thank you.

Sara Pitcher (38:55.476)
refused to go in. He said he needed some time in the car to kind of cool off and think. So I begged him to come in. We had just gotten married and so I wanted people to see our marriage. I wanted people to be happy. I was happy. So we didn't go in. I went in by myself and they...

You know, the teachers, I had known them also from beforehand. And she said, well, this week is actually a week where you and you two are kind of one on one. So it's not a lot of class participation. It's you guys reading the things out of the class and stuff like that. So I went back out there and I said, you know, I, I need you to come in because I can't do this week on my own. Like I can't learn. There's nothing to learn. There's nothing like it's you and me one on one. And

He wouldn't go in, he wouldn't go in. So I finally got up, went in, and just told her like, hey, I guess I'm gonna go home because he's not gonna go in, and I can't be here by myself. So I went back out to the car, and he got really angry. He got a phone call, and he ended up running from the car, leaving, and it was.

like walking towards the gas station. And so I got in the car. I started like kind of trying to talk to him out of the window, like get in the car, let's go home, fine, forget it. And he wouldn't get in the car. And I said, well, like I'm gonna go home. This is ridiculous. I'm not gonna stay, I can't do the class. Like, let's just go home. And he was so angry and he's like, just kept bringing up this person and why would I wanna give him a steak and why would I wanna cook for him?

Why did I ask him to water the plants? And so I ended up getting out of my car. I parked my car on the side of the road, got out of my car and was trying to talk to him and he wouldn't. And so he ended up running from me, left his sandals, like he had flip-flops, left his sandals and started running through like these trees. And so I got back in my car and started going down the road and I couldn't find him. And his phone was in my car.

Sara Pitcher (41:18.532)
couldn't call him, didn't know what to do. So I went to the gas station down the road. I asked if they had seen anybody. I didn't even know if he knew my phone number. A lot of times nowadays we don't know people's numbers that's in our phones. So how could he get a hold of me? So I drove around probably for 10 or 15 minutes, back roads, trying to find him, did know what to do. I finally, I think I called my mom and she said, just go home. I mean,

Jan (41:31.511)
or truth, right?

Sara Pitcher (41:46.928)
one way or another, he'll make it home. And so I went home and it was probably four and a half, five hours later, he came home, was banging on the window. And I let him in and he said that he had walked home, he had blisters on the bottom of his feet. He was in so much pain, you know, I went and got.

rubbing alcohol and he cleaned up his feet and it just was almost like nothing ever happened. You know it was so weird but here I am married now, you know, thinking that I'm going to change and break the curse of divorce in my family line that it's till death do you part and I'm not sure what's going on, you know.

I had spoken to his aunt and she had asked if he was taking his medication and I said oh, his medication, what do you mean? And she said well he has the medication that he takes daily and I said oh no the only thing that he takes sometimes is Advil or something and she goes oh maybe he doesn't take it anymore. And I said okay. So never thought anything of that either. And it just, you know, we were married two years ago.

Jan (42:41.446)
Thank you.

Sara Pitcher (43:10.596)
almost two years, because we got married in 16 and divorced in 18. We actually, we separated in June of 17. No, I'm sorry, June of 18. So we were married two years, a little over two years. And you know, there were numerous different fights like that. But I didn't really know what a narcissist was.

I had never learned about that. I had never studied that. Looking back though, I know 100% he was a narcissist. He was very good at portraying himself as the best person around on the outside, but then in the inside of the home, it was a total different story.

Jan (43:51.138)
Yeah.

Jan (44:05.822)
Yeah, and it's hard when you're with somebody like that because all the people around him think they know him. You know, they think he is the greatest guy around and they're kind of all going, oh, she's crazy or whatever. That's what seems to start happening because that becomes his story or his, you know, she overreacts, she's too emotional, blah, blah. She never thinks about me or my needs or what I, you know, it just, it just escalates like that. It's almost like they have like.

Sara Pitcher (44:12.674)
Mm-hmm.

Sara Pitcher (44:20.397)
Yes.

Jan (44:34.73)
a split personality too. It's like the story that you start with is not the story that you end the day with. I mean, it's like that thing with his shoes off and the blisters and oh, my feet hurt and da da. And you never really talked about what happened and he's been gone for five hours, but you take care of his blistered feet and then nothing happened. And you're like, so is this bipolar disorder? Did you ever find out what the medication was that he had been prescribed? Okay. Yeah. Okay.

Sara Pitcher (44:52.484)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sara Pitcher (44:59.048)
It was bipolar. Yes. Yeah. He was bipolar. He, we had gone to multiple different marriage counselors because I, I wanted to fix things. I wanted things to be good. You know, I, I wasn't, I didn't want a divorce. That's not what I went into this for, you know? Um, so we would go to different counselors and then three, four sessions into it. He would be like, oh, I actually don't like them anymore. They're not, you know, good for us. Or they...

Jan (45:12.675)
Yes.

Sara Pitcher (45:28.428)
don't understand us and so we would have to go to another one and have to go to another one and we finally went to one through our church and he was a counselor slash psychologist and this was more towards the end of our relationship but he ran a bunch of like quizzes on us and a bunch of different things like that and I know I'm codependent you know that's a big thing that I've learned a lot of.

Codependent people attract narcissists, you know So he He learned that I was codependent even though he kind of already knew that And he was diagnosed with intermittent explosive disorder Not bipolar, which I thought was interesting and at this time I didn't know he was bipolar had bipolar tendencies or whatever But he

Jan (46:02.382)
Mm-hmm.

Jan (46:16.114)
Mmm.

Sara Pitcher (46:27.4)
would explode and the counselor said that he would never do anything to physically hurt me. That he would just explode and get really mad and angry but um it was all words and things like that. He would never do anything to hurt me. So I think I held on to that a lot more with safety than I should have.

you know, if that makes sense because I just had a false sense of security. So there were multiple different occasions where, um, toward the end, you know, I was working at a bridal store. I had decided to get a job and start making my own money. And, um, I was working at the bridal store and he had a check that was coming in the mail and the check was postponed by UPS and

Jan (46:58.787)
Yeah.

Sara Pitcher (47:24.4)
He swore that I had taken the check and that I had the check, even though I sent him a screenshot that said it was postponed, said that, you know, and he was gonna leave and he was gonna, you know, use that money to go buy stuff for him because he never got anything. And so I think I was a week and a half, two weeks into, you know, getting this management position at the Spritell store.

and he starts sending me photos of the house saying, if I don't get this checked, the whole house is gonna be destroyed. And I got photos of like our master bedroom and the vertical blinds were cut down the middle and the bookshelves and the dresser were kicked in and broken and he took our sand art from our wedding and threw it against our fireplace and sand was all over. Just pictures of

different things and it was horrible and I didn't know what to do and my mom luckily lived about an hour and a half away and so I asked her to go over there call the police and you know it was very interesting because the police literally came and said it's both of their house like he can do whatever he wants you know he's not hurting her he's not doing anything I mean he can destroy everything in the house if he wants so he ended up calming down and leaving but

Jan (48:18.833)
nature.

Sara Pitcher (48:49.3)
I went over to my mom's for a little while and we were working on boundaries in our marriage counseling and so the boundary was anytime that he exploded or got mad or angry at me, which they're very good at manipulating. So we would start talking about something like finances and then all of a sudden he would blow up and he would turn it on to something else and you know why I didn't love him or

why I accused him of this when we were just talking about bills. And so it's almost like I felt crazy, you know, like what is going on? Where did that come from? And he would go upstairs and go in the attic for 24 hours, 48 hours, wouldn't come downstairs. I mean, not even to go to the bathroom, not to eat, not anything. And so there were, I started putting boundaries in where he would...

Jan (49:20.174)
Yeah.

Sara Pitcher (49:43.36)
if he started to explode or started to yell at me, I would go to my mom's. And he would use that almost to his advantage. He would start exploding and be like, I know, I know you're going to your mom's, just get the hell out of here, just go, leave. So I had stayed at my mom's, I think about a week and we had kind of decided like, this isn't the best relationship, maybe we need to take a break and.

We had one vehicle because I was staying at home before the bridal store and wasn't working. I had an at home job. And so we thought just to kind of cut the bills, we would sell my car. So the other car, both of the vehicles were in my name because he had owed back child support and didn't have good credit. So I told him, you know, I'm going to come get my car. And

because it's in my name and there's, you know, if we're taking a break and you're not, you're telling me you're not gonna pay the bills, then I'm not gonna let you drive the car, you know? It's kind of logical sense. And so he said, fine, come over. I don't even care. Like, you know, I'm done with you. I'm done with the car. Well, when I went over there was when I found the car had been keyed by him.

Jan (50:48.872)
Yes.

Sara Pitcher (51:05.008)
and on both sides it was a key mark from the front to the back on both sides and then on the front of the hood he had keyed bitch on top of the front of the hood and I was like just in shock and you know again there was nothing the cops could do because we were married you know so he could do whatever he wanted to you know our vehicles so

Jan (51:16.182)
Oh my gosh.

Jan (51:26.058)
Oh.

Jan (51:29.543)
He put you in a situation to isolate you further, only one car, you don't work, you're staying home, now you get a job, I need a car and all of those tactics that are, they all should be illegal so that they could have done something. When someone does that to your personal property, you owned the car.

Sara Pitcher (51:47.94)
Mm-hmm.

Jan (51:49.311)
that we've got to make more legal changes. Okay, continue. I'm so sorry this all happened to you and this isn't even the worst of it, but yes.

Sara Pitcher (51:52.352)
Yes. No. So I finally, you know, we had decided to stay in the house for two years because we were fixing up the house. We wanted to make a profit and due to capital gains taxes and stuff like that, we were gonna stay in the house two years and then sell it. So we ended up staying about two and a half years. We got everything done.

and then we listed it and we were gonna move into a condo together, flip another house, but things just kept getting worse and worse and I finally had decided that I was kind of done. I, even though I wanted to have that fairytale life and I wanted to be married and have kids and it just wasn't with this person. And I had, in 2017, that's when I started my weight loss journey.

And in 2018, June of 2018 was kind of when we finally got separated. So again, that kind of gave me confidence to see myself again for my worth and my value and kind of going through that transformation. I was able to say, you know, like, hey, this is this isn't for me, you know, like, even though I'm married and even though I am a Christian and you know, this is not a relationship that needs to be to

Jan (53:05.291)
Yeah.

Sara Pitcher (53:18.82)
till death do us part, you know, which is I think why I stayed so long, because I wanted to make that work. So we separated, he moved into the condo that we were both supposed to move into, and I moved into my mom's apartment, kind of lived in her living room, and she was moving back to Arizona. My brother and sister-in-law were pregnant, were moving to Arizona from New York,

Jan (53:28.139)
Yeah.

Sara Pitcher (53:48.98)
You know, she wanted to be there for her grandchild. And so I had thought about staying in Indiana because I had a really good church family. I had really good friends. I had an amazing coaching community that I was surrounded by and loved. But it started to get very toxic, even more toxic than it was. You know, he would start showing up at my work. He would...

start sending text messages to, or Facebook messages, to people that I knew, that we both knew, you know, kind of saying things like, oh, Sarah, you know, must be talking bad about me. You need to know that anything she says is not true. Like, I really am a good person. She just doesn't want to be with me anymore. He even sent a message to me asking me to not go to Arizona, to not move with my mom.

which I wasn't even at that time really thinking about moving, and to give him another chance. He knew I wanted nothing more than to be a mother. And so he said, you know, let's get me unfixed, get you pregnant. You can have a baby. We'll flip another house. You know, I'll, I'll get to do another one and then I'll take out a, a insurance policy and I will.

crash and die in a car crash and you can have the insurance policy and then you can raise our kid by yourself, you know, because that's what you've always wanted. And that was kind of like, you know, yeah. So I was like, okay, maybe I need to get some distance between him and I because he had filed for divorce, but he had done it because he kept saying he was going to do it. And our counselor finally said, hey, you either need to like.

Jan (55:25.058)
Wow.

Sara Pitcher (55:42.732)
do it or don't, you know, you're basically like, you know, calling wolf or, you know, whatever. I feel like you're saying it, but you're not gonna do it. So once our counselor said that, he literally got in the car and went down and filed for divorce that day, you know, because someone said he wouldn't. So I ended up leaving without him really even knowing. I went over the night before to get money.

Jan (55:51.842)
Yeah, on both sides.

Sara Pitcher (56:12.384)
because he had said he was gonna pay half of all the bills because everything was in my name, all the credit cards, the vehicle, everything like that. And I mean, we were getting divorced. We had split the house money. I actually gave him half of the profit of the house, which I wish I didn't. And we had paid off a lot of the bills because he had promised he was gonna give me half of all the bills. And...

He went out and bought a truck because he didn't want to be on the hook for half of the car payment. And then the car that we had that he keyed, over the six weeks that he lived there and I lived at my mom's, there were multiple times where I thought, oh, maybe it'll work or maybe we can make it work or, you know.

So I would go to the condo and I would spend the night or I would try and things would happen and you know Then I would leave or he would scream and yell at me and you know Loaded up my TV one night and said just get out of here. You know, I know you don't really want to be with me But one night I had spent the night and the next morning I had gone out And my car was gone like the vehicle was gone, it wasn't parked where it was and

He didn't know where it was. We called the police. We, you know, I mean, the car was stolen. And so he had told me that the officer wanted to talk to us about it and that he wanted to give me the money for the bills up night. So I went over there. I knew I was leaving the next morning. All my stuff was packed in a U-Haul, but he didn't know. And he ended up getting really mad and really angry.

and threw my stuff out of the backyard. He went and ran to get in his truck. I went after him to run and stop him. Then he went back inside and he actually closed me in the door. So I was trying to get my stuff. My purse was in there, my shoes were in there, and he was literally banging the door against me and I was like stuck in the door. Now this is the first time anything physical had ever happened, you know, which...

Sara Pitcher (58:36.044)
The big eye-opener to me, I started going to a wife's group, just thinking maybe I had done something wrong or maybe there was something else I could do in the relationship to make it better. And one of the leaders was very well-versed in domestic violence. And I had never seen domestic violence. Of course, growing up, I wasn't around a mom and a dad. I didn't see any of that stuff. And so...

In my head, domestic violence was physical. I had no idea everything else that it was. And so it was almost like when she showed me kind of the wheel and the emotional, the mental, the physical, the financial, I just like, cropped. Like all of that had been happening to me, but I had no idea that it was domestic violence. I had no idea because he had never hit me.

Jan (59:08.619)
Right.

Jan (59:23.658)
Mm-hmm.

Sara Pitcher (59:34.432)
You know, and so.

Jan (59:35.702)
And the word violence throws you off. Violence, you always assume that means physical. I had another guest on the show who calls, instead of calling it domestic violence, she calls it intimate terrorism. Intimate.

Sara Pitcher (59:38.541)
Yes.

Sara Pitcher (59:52.708)
Hmm.

Jan (59:54.186)
terrorism and I'm like, wow, now that includes everything. I really love that term. You know, sometimes our terminology matters. You know, a red flag to me is obvious. That's why I hate the term. I'm like, they're never red flags. It's something that, you know, you think is off and then they have an excuse and they have a story and then pretty soon you're like, oh, okay, well, I just misunderstood. It's not a red flag.

Sara Pitcher (59:58.936)
Yes.

Sara Pitcher (01:00:17.304)
Yes.

Jan (01:00:19.078)
Okay, so that's really interesting. Okay, so you see the wheel, you know that you've experienced all the things on that wheel. Okay.

Sara Pitcher (01:00:25.184)
Yes, yes, except the violence part. And so it was very interesting that last final night that we were together, it went to a violent place.