Stuart Penn ON: Igniting Your Potential

Spend minutes in Stuart Penn's company and you can't help feeling inspired, uplifted and motivated to step away from your comfort zone and try something new. 

Born with only one fully formed limb, Stuart learnt from a young age that everything is possible but sometimes you have to think differently to find a way forward. His parents gave him the gift of space and time to figure things out for himself and told him if he wanted something badly enough, he'd find a way. 

Listen to Stuart talk about his journey from a young boy with a badly fitting wooden leg to a world-class martial artist who describes his disability as his advantage. We talk about his work as a stuntman in Hollywood movies, inspirational speaking, running marathons and everything in between. His story is one of determination, resilience, tenacity and is unmissable. 

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Transcript

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Hi everyone. My name is David Ogilvie and this is the podcast where I explore what it means to live feel and work better. This week I'm joined by inspirational speaker and Sports Champion Stuart Penn who has overcome many challenges in life after being born with only one fully formed limb. His story is one of determination, resilience and tenacity. So Hi Stuart, welcome to the resilience development podcast, I'm delighted to have you here today. Thanks for coming along. Hi, David, great to be here. Yeah, I'm so excited and I found myself recently in pretty much all podcasts pointing out to people who are listening or viewing if you watching this on on YouTube that we know each other, we've known each other for a while, haven't we? Yeah, we have indeed, I was going to say I'm glad you said that because sometimes you you talking to people and you think oh God, I know these people however, it's what I would answer this differently if I was talking to someone I didn't know so it's good that people know we know each other. Yeah, I think it's important and I think what what we try to do in these podcasts is we try to make things just like a conversation, you know, not not to not too formal. Umm, I often find particularly when I know people after watch for slipping into informality, but I do I do have a beeper later on we have the technology in edit to be able beep anything out. But I've never had to beep anything out at all. So, I'm really looking forward to this conversation. I'm really looking forward to it because I know a lot about you. But how would how would you introduce yourself? How would you just describe yourself? Tell us a little bit about yourself what you do what you do for a living because I think that's important. It's part of that story. It's very inspiring but what you do outside work, maybe we'll just take the conversation from there. Yeah, so yeah, I mean I simply always describe myself as I was I was born with my right leg missing for the knee my left arm missing at the elbow. I've got a fibular missing out my left leg and I've got a small club foot that basically makes me walk like a T-Rex if I don't have a prosthetic on that side, I was also born with other deformities as well things that flared rib cage rib cages, and I always joke that I've also got four nipples which which is actually true but it's a nice little one to throw in there and however despite that I was brought up by my parents who I must I always give them full credit for this because they deserve it, who basically made it possible that if I wanted to do anything I could do it. I just had to find the way I doing it. So they would literally let me see it and try and work out how to tie up my shoes with one hand. They would keep challenging me to do because as they always you say, there's no such word as can't you just gotta find the way to do it. And so, you know, I've led, I've got to admit and without trying to say I brought myself up. They're very interested in life and basically bouncing around doing a lot of different careers and a lot of different fascinating things everything from, I used to be in the British athletic Squad to being fourth degree black belt in Taekwondo, been the professional martial arts and gym instructor, to working in movies being blown up and doing stunt work and with some famous people, to also then moving on to work with the British Military and the American Military and the Scandinavian military, actually to help them establish casualty simulation and utilizing amputees as a training aid. And because we were quite well, very early in the setting up of that, we also got trained that with our medical knowledge because we were actually very good at debriefing and being able to teach people what to do properly if they got blown up. I then ended up in Jersey as a quick whistle stop tour of my life and ended up in Jersey after my military work had finished and fell back into the whole kind of skills and training and education piece, which was where I started with martial arts and then working for skills Jersey where at the moment I'm kind of the lead person within skills are for the education and skills department. There's also a little caveat there, but also on my outside is I took up Brazilian Jiu Jitsu when I came to Jersey and fell in love with a new sport that is really the best sport in the world for people with limbs missing. That's not just my opinion, that's quite a popular opinion. Good and I think there was a golden silver medal somewhere in Abu Dhabi along the way there as well. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, and also I just recently won Gold last weekend, another event that I went to, another competition in the UK, which was for the REAL charity. So I went, how it happened was when I, when I started doing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, I was doing it for about a year and a half in Jersey and at the same time I realized that the limb service here in Jersey, Jersey's a little island for people that don't know it's only like five by nine, but we've got about 50 people that access the limb service to get Prosthetics and false limbs. And it haven't got a great setup. There was these people that flew over every two weeks and they literally were using a cupboard as their workshop, so they'd be repairing legs in this cupboard. So I offered to do a charity event, I said, look, let me raise some money for you and raise the awareness because I didn't know there was 50 odd amputees in Jersey, so, let's do a little bit of an event. So I took Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and basically did it in the middle of our busiest town, right by the fake cows for anyone that those Jersey and I did 12 hours solid, just wrestling, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu's, basically, like wrestling. I did 12 hours solid non-stop changing my opponents every 15 minutes which were just other people from the club all of whom were able bodied. So I did that for 12 hours as a massive endurance event and it surprisingly very popular, to the point where people were filming it and posting on YouTube and posting all sorts of social media about it and it got a lot of attention and that was 2016 in the summer, umm, the next year 2017 in January, I got a phone call and it was a representative of the United Arab Emirates royal family, because out in Abu Dhabi or the UAE, it's Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is huge, It's like their national sport they adore it and they hold the World Championships there or the grand slams as they call them, and they said look we want to do a Power division first, ever power division, and we'd like you to come along and represent not only Channel Islands but also England as well. And I was just blown away. I said how on earth have you found me and they said oh we saw these videos of you, you know doing Jiu Jitsu by these plastic cows. So, from little Jersey here we moved all the way, ended up going over in the April of that year to find the first Brazilian Jiu Jitsu power World Championships, which was fascinating on its own because getting to meet all these different Jiu Jitsu Fighters with arms and legs missing or wheelchair users, umm, it was just the bizarrest moment in my life, especially when I realized how big the sport is there. I mean, there's like billboards with our photos up on them, that we when we came out to fight we were coming out to our own music individually like some sort of world championship boxing and it was it was interesting because we also because it was a newly established sport, it was, we were against all sorts of different disabilities, so I had my initial Umm, super fight if you like was against someone with a similar disability to me with arm and leg missing. Which is quite rare to have, both of the one of each missing and he'd been doing this sport about 10 years younger, longer than me or something ridiculous. He was also about 20 kilograms heavier than, me a lovely guy Sean Fong's his name definitely worth looking up is that he does do his own YouTube channels and things and we had the cracking fight. I mean, it's really good, but I was out classed and out weighed by a long way, then the second fight that we put in, which is kind of like the absolutes where they put us against anyone with any disability and I got a guy who had been training just about as long as me, I was okay this is better. He'd only got a foot missing. Okay, that's all right, trying a lot of able-bodied people, I'm used to different, more limbs than I've got and he was 30 kilograms heavier than me. So I weighed 60 kilograms, he weighed 90 kilograms, but I'm actually, and came away with gold which was a fantastic experience to be able to then promote the sport to other people with disabilities. Like, I say, especially people with limbs missing because if people don't know bout Brazilian Jiu Jitsu it is like wrestling but you also look into lock joints up or create chokes and get people to submit or pass out and if you've got less limbs, you've got less things for people to attack. So, for once it's a sport for people with arms and legs missing where you have the advantage over an able Body person. Yeah, I guess I was wondering why, Why Brazilian Jiu Jitsu because I was thinking is it, is it more akin to and is it easier in inverted commas for people who don't have limbs, but you're actually saying that's an advantage. So why Brazilian? Umm, it actually comes from just one family called The Graces so, umm ,they took traditional Jiu Jitsu from, from Japan and altered it slightly and the guy, I should know all these names, I think it's Hélio Gracie the guy who did it originally and set it up was a very small guy and he's aim was to change this sport so that you could use Judo and power and Jiu Jitsu as power and strength and a lot of technique, but he wanted to find the way of little people being able to manipulate people bigger and defeat them. So, and he was Brazilian, so he taught this art of they've been taught by the Japanese and just tweaked and changed it, and this point now where they are very not separate, they don't look the same. There's a lot more Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is on the ground a lot more as opposed to standing up. We do stand up and do throws as well. But, umm, it's a lot more on the ground wrestling trying to submit, fighting from underneath as well, if that makes sense. So from lying on your back actually fighting and defeating people, if anyone watches the early days of the UFC, it was Royce Gracie from that family who won for the first free Ultimate Fighting competitions against all these different martial arts. It was a strange step for me because I've done, I'd done martial arts all my life. I mean, how did Judo when I was about 11 or 12 and then moved on to taekwondo when I was about 13 ,14 and that had been my life. Now Taekwondo is a stand-up kicky punchy martial art. So I'd always wore prosthetic limbs, you know took a lot of trial and ever, I mean, I do remember doing the flying side kick and watching as my leg came off and flew away from me and I just remember thinking well, this this is gonna be an interesting landing and so over the years. I'd adapted to how I strap these limbs on arms and legs. I've got different limbs for Taekwondo that would have for sprinting or for long jumps and it was strange going on to my first Brazilian Jiu Jitsu class, I mean in my 30s I'd have been, late 30s and the guy, the coach just turned round, I said I've brought all my limbs all my special limbs I use for sports, he went you don't need any of them take them all off and I did took them all off walked on the mat, and you know, I've always been quite a confident guy and having grown up with arms and legs missing, I've never had an issue with it, But it made me suddenly realize how little I did with no limbs on. So it was a little bit, first time in year on 20 odd years I'd been self-conscious. This is completely different having no limbs on and it was amazing and that has actually been bled into my normal life, for anyone ever catches the Condor Ferry from Jersey to the UK, you'll see me walking around on my knees with knee pads on because actually walking along on prosthetic limbs if it's a rough sea you're liable to fall over and hurt yourself or others, so, actually now I take those off, now I didn't do that before I did Jiu Jitsu because it was... okay this is a bit of confidence, this is a bit different I'm used to having no limbs on and actually at the weekend when I was competing, I competed against, umm... a guy called Mark Ormrod who is quite famous, he's an MBE and he was a triple amputee, blown up in Afghanistan and we were chatting that he was on about how he's only recently started Jiu Jitsu a couple of years ago how it's bled into his life in that his, his stomp, his arm stomp is a lot shorter than mine, it's about here and he always fought it was completely useless until it did Jiu Jitsu and firstly in Jiu Jitsu, this is quite a good weapon because you can jab it into all sorts of places and it gets in closer to people than you could with a full arm, but he said it's made him realize he can like carry plates on his arm and he can hold things with his arm, so it's suddenly lightened up his life into actually, these stumps are not useless you can use them for things. And so I love seeing that sort of thing not just be sports but anything where you see people realizing actually I can use my body, I can use these things in a different way this, thing and then goes into you the rest of your life. I find that fascinating. Yeah because it's kind of pushing boundaries isn't it, pushing you, pushing you out of your comfort zone and challenging your thinking and you, your mind set because on that, can I take you back, right, I've got a question for you, so I'm kind of thinking grew up in the 80s, right, I'm thinking you said you were always into kind of martial arts. So, I'm thinking in the eighties... you know Jean-Claude Van Damme, those kind of thing -There the ones- that kind of role model, so, and then I'm picturing you as this, this kid growing into a young man, and I'm wondering where were your role models then did you watch that stuff and go, yeah I can I can do that or what what about you role models? Yeah, it's really was, you know, you turn back it was Van Damme, it was Bruce Lee, however one of the main things I remember when I was really young is loving the Six Million Dollar man will Lee Majors because of course he was meant to be disabled, you know, he built different, they built him but he wasn't but I Remember Loving that and that was a massive hook on for me,umm...you know, I always accepted my disability, I say always, you know, I generally accepting my disability and got on with it and found ways of doing things but to have someone like that, that you were like ...yeah, The Bionic man that was a reframe I wasn't disabled, I've always been bionic in my mind and I'm sure it's because of watching Lee Majors and bear in mind, that point I was wearing legs that were made out of wood, that were made about 15 centimeters too long, so, you I'd be walking with one leg 15 centimeters longer than the other one because by this point I hadn't got a prosthetic on my left leg where the club foot is. So I'd be walking painfully on that with a leg 15 centimeters bigger and with a big leather belt that strapped it around your waist and which is left loads of wonderful scars all over my back and also the knee joints were elastic bands, they literally just chopped a peg leg in half and then bolted it back on and put an elastic band on so there's me walking around with that kind of prosthetic, but in my mind, I am Lee Majors and the bionic man, but it did make you then start realizing you had to adapt, you know, I wanted to walk to school with my friends, but it's really hard work, especially on your back muscles to walk with a leg 15 centimetres too big, umm.. but so all I did was start walking with the wooden leg in the road and my real foot on the curb of the pavement so they evened up my feet and I now can walk straight and normal. So, in my mind this was me being The Bionic Man and adjusting... Yeah ...wow! And you, you're laying that gift of how you see the world at your parents feet? Oh, yeah, definitely it was, was always that you know, and it's not catchable, they always say look you can do anything, but, sometimes you got to find a different way of doing it and you know, take Taekwondo I went along for my first Taekwondo lesson in a big, in fact, it was aluminium by that point a big aluminium leg but still had an elastic band for a knee, still 15 centimeters too big, went along to my first Taekwondo lesson and to be fair the coach could quite easily have just said 'actually no, it's probably not for you', but he said look give it a go, but you'll have to get some insurance because if you break your leg, you won't have a leg to stand on, because he then realized what he'd said, but he was very much of the same as my parents he would just let me get on with it. He would leave it to me and if I was struggling with something he might if it was a technical Taekwondo thing he'd come and give me tips and advice, but if it wasn't then he'd kind of just leave me to work out myself, which is so much, Yeah, I'm a big fan of for anyone it's always try and problem solve first I do it with my own kids now, it is actually let them try and solve the problem themselves first then guide them if necessary and there's a last resort, tell them or help them, you know, it's such an important lesson to learn how to problem solve whether it's a physical thing or whether it's just working something out in your brain and taking yourself through the steps. Yeah, learning the hard way almost Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a fair way of putting it, you know with support is the caveat for this day and age, you know, I think we should not just, yeah. I understand because it reminds me I'm ,you know me, I'm a big Land Rover fan and I like to work with my hands, so, I always remember I got my first old Land Rover and I knew somebody who had a few older Land Rovers, so, you know that basically equates to spare parts. And yeah, I think it was the starter motor. This guy is a mechanic right? And I asked him if I could could take a starter motor off one of his old Land Rovers, he was like yeah sure as long as you do yourself. As long as you do it yourself and I was like ... Okay fine I'll do that. It took me and a friend about a full day to get it off. Full day, right and at the end of it he just came up and said you should have done it like this, and if you've done it like this it would've taken you half an hour, but you've learned so much about owning a Land Rover. Yeah. We learnt, we learnt the hard way, and it's really interesting what you said because you know, this is the Resilience Development podcast I'm from The Resilience Development Company as you, as you know, and there's a kind of I think there's a myth about resilience so that it's all personal. And you picked up on something about your parents and you surroundings because I was think of resilience, when I think of resilience I think of Cinderella... You know fairly hard done by, you know, if that fairy tale was a modern story hard done by and in her environment, she's got some pretty awful sisters and her Mother's pretty awful. And you know if you think about Cinderella she, she represents resilience in terms of optimism and just keep pushing and reframing things but actually we forget and we fail to ask well, where would she be without a fairy godmother? Or if you're watching the Disney movie The Disney bit where would she be without the animals who come and give her the key? Yeah. It's really interesting listening to you because it isn't just about that kind of, the individual, it's about the individual being plugged into the environment and the environment supporting isn't it? And that's what I'm kind of hearing and it kind of you know, I know that you work with young people now, don't you? Skills? Yes. Yeah. Yeah And it's....kinda.. Yeah, we do and sorry. (talking over each other) And, I'm just wondering kind of, you know, I'm kind of imagining coming along and meeting you and meeting, meeting young people who are not sure which way they want to go, they're not sure what they want to do i, in life and whether they want to develop their education or go another way and then they meet you, with your ethos. Yeah, and it's not just young people, actually I used to do a lot of motivational talks on inspirational speaking with individuals some people at work, some people, you know with limbs missing or lost limbs. I mean a lot of the time is, people feel a lot of pressure that you've hit nail on the head they feel a lot of pressure, they've got to do it themselves or feel a lot of pressure that if they make a mistake it's a problem and I think one of the main things you learn from problem solving or finding your own way or you know doing the Land Rover thing for a whole day yourself is actually you can get things wrong. You can fail you. You've just got to pick yourself up and keep going again and quite often when I've worked with young people who are a little bit lost or people all the people a little bit lost or not sure where to go or they've had a big change in their life. like I say whatever that's redundancy or whatever that's having a limb blowing off it is that fear that the first step and you fail that's it. You can't do anything else and if that's part of that fairy Godmother, it's part of that support is that there's someone there in the background saying, even if they're there at the start, just saying it'll be all right. You just got to keep going, just got to keep finding a way so, actually we get used to the fact that we're all human we all fail, not everything works the first time, you've got to keep trying, you've got to pick yourself up and it's, it's having that conversation with people at the start. And young people have got our careers guidance team here always, always on say that they meet people are kind of year 11 and they think they've got to make a decision for a job for the rest of their life and it's such an important thing and it's weighing on their mind so much and a lot of our careers guidance team the first starting point is don't worry about it, this is, let's have a play because you've got your whole life ahead you, what you want to do what you want to be able to do, how, what's motivating you and I think that's a key point, is actually making sure that it's something you want to do something that actually you you want to be able to do and if it's something you don't want to do but it's something you've got to do is the way of doing it that makes it more enjoyable for you. I think, can't remember if it's one of your sessions actually, that human beings either move away from pain or move towards pleasure. So, it's actually identifying which one that you are doing and what how do you need to do it? And actually if you fail or you can try again, what's the next bit? What's the next part? You're gonna run with? How are you then get the try again to keep picking yourself up and a great example, I often use to people is that I wear contact lenses. It's a long, well it's a short shortish story. Let me say so, I'm short side. that's why I wear them, but also when I was in the military that I had an accident an industrial accident where there was the Hemcom powder that they at that point used to to seal wounds it burns wound shut, it accidentally got poured into my eyes, so burned all the tops of my eyes are thankfully the people who I was training were actually all high level doctors and surgeons. So, they do what to do straight away, it was water, water simple wash it out get it all sorted to the point where I didn't even bother going A&E , I said I'll finish the rest of the day and I'll go to A&E afterwards so my contact lenses doubled up as a bandage after that. So, they would, I didn't wear contact lenses at that point I wore glassess, at the hospital and Opticians and things that they said look, wear contact lenses because it acts as a bandage for your eyes as well, so you won't keep tearing these weakened. Is it Corneas off the front of your eyes? So I had double motivation now I want to move away from the pain because this would save me some pain if I could wear these contact lenses that I can just leave in all month and also move towards pleasure because I'll actually be able to see and I won't need stick glasses on and off all the time. So it's okay. I'll get contact lenses and try putting contact lenses in with one hand, it's not the easiest thing in the world and it used to take me an hour and a half each eye. So, when I first started using them I'd have to get up three hours before I was going out to actually start putting my contact lenses in of course now I can do within seconds but it was that actually that moving towards, that while I wanted motivated to do it put in the hard work in, failing a lot of times and poking myself in the eye or dropping contact lenses, but I wanted to get there and I wanted to do it. So I just try it until I found the way of being able to do it and like most things when I found the way it was actually a really simple thing that I just hadn't come un which was simply just hold it to fingers and put your contact lensing with the middle one. It was actually something really simple in the end when I discovered that to do it. You probably saw me smiling then because I wear contact lenses. I'm thinking how has he managed to do that? And then you pointed out think I'm gonna try that next time I put, next time I put contact lenses in I'm gonna try that. And I bet there are other people going... Yeah...i might try that , cause I end up going ..mirror, pulling my eyeball up with one hand, trying to get it in with the the other and yeah now you've pointed it out thinking... Yeah, that's quite, it's quite obvious. Isn't it? It's interesting because that's you talking, I'm thinking about the kind of the way that that people tend to cope under stress. Mm-hmm. And I'm thinking they're really two separate strategies. One is kind of problem solving... Strategies, the other one a kind of emotional coping strategies and you seem to have a real focus on that kind of if there's a problem there's got to be a way around it just find a way to do it. And then I'm also thinking about a lot of people confuse resilience as just kind of mental toughness, just keep pushing and actually sometimes, sometimes we should be stopping. Yeah, abso...and actually whether it's it's certainly a weakness that I had to learn over time because I was always oh! there'll be a way we'll find the way, always find the way it's not a problem, sometimes you need to stop and say but is the is what I want worth what I'm gonna do to go through it and I always use a real life, Sorry I've got the dog next to me and his tails wagging on my chair. I've seen the tail wagging on screen, it's ok I love dogs. One of the examples always give people when I get to that kind of, you know, just should you be trying and over the top is I was going that once to a black tie event and I need to put cufflinks in and so I was sitting there with cufflinks, going ahh man!! That's... gonna use in my mouth and just gnawing away trying to put the cufflink in and open it and close it with my mouth and all that took me ages, but I did it and I walked downstairs my wife. Ahhh ha ! Did it look at that? Ever, all my cuff was soaked in saliva and let's face it that's gonna smell after a couple of hours. And my wife was just like why, why didn't you asked me to do it for you? I was like... Oh, yeah, and she said, or, why didn't you put it in your shirt before you put it on and then put your shirt on was I oh, yeah, so that was a that was a nice funny story. But it's a way that I learned to start actually sometimes questions, it is this, is this a right thing. Do I need to go this difficult route do I actually need to deliver this goal or task that I want or is this the point where you need to stop and say, okay, let's think of this different and no I don't need to do it or actually yes, I do but it'd be easier if I got someone else or because you're right some people think you know, especially if I talk about finding the way they just think it's go out it go at it go at it bloody mindedly if you like until you've done it, but actually you've got to stop and think sometimes. Yeah, because I mean, I mean in some of the work we do we measure people in terms of the will and the way that's how I'm going to describe it willpower and way wherever you stand this kind of advantages but the danger with constantly pushing when there is no way is your end up hurting yourself. And the danger with being very driven and constantly been creative and finding new ways is sometimes you forget to ask yourself, what's the most obvious thing to do here? I have to do that. Yes! Right, I love being creative, I love to find new ways around things and even at work, I'm always trying to just kind of tweak things get a better outcome and the amount of times and the amount of energy I've wasted, because I just think well, what would of... I'd have said what would be the most obvious thing to do? I'd have saved myself a lot of time, a lot of energy and a lot, a lot of stress Yes. I'm interested in and you did say there was no questions, you know that I couldn't ask you so I'm kind of.. I'm hearing all the highs. Yeah, What what about the lows? What about the emotional side of things or have you always just simply been look. Nope. I'll find a way forward. I've got the support around me. I'm gonna go for it. No absolutely not. What about anybody listening? Sorry, go on. Yeah. Yes. I was just going say... absolutely, it is, you know, I always talk about, yeah when I was a kid and actually growing up and the lows then, but they yeah, everyone has lows and even continuing forward you have lows, so yeah, I always say I'm lucky that I get to be challenged and do different things because the world's not built for me, so, I quite often have to adapt even opening doors carrying cups of teas and things so I get that challenge and that's why I've got a good problem solving mind and build resilience, but actually there's always lows, there's always that moment all those things that actually how did you get here even now because it doesn't stop but one of the main things I always talk about is I remember being you know teenager(ish) kind of age, and your all body conscious at that age anyway, aren't you never mind with you've got big wooden legs there so big they stretch your trousers, so, I used to hate wearing shorts and it's really quite traumatic, you know traumatic, it's quite upsetting for me. There is a funny side in that my parents used to take me to the beach as a kid and take my trousers off my leg would come off, take my top off my arm would come off and you'd have people on the beach go -what's gonna come off next. You know, is his head gonna come off or something? But I used to get stared at a lot, you know, people used to look all the time and that age, I hated it just didn't just didn't like people looking at me and staring at me didn't like wearing shorts very self-conscious about it really wanted to hide myself away and what kind of helped to to reframe that, well it didn't kind of help, it did totally help, was one day on holiday I was staying a young lad with Cerebral palsy and who's walking along or doing something, and I was just watching staring at him and my dad kind of goes -nudges me - what, what you doing? I was like, oh no, I mean, I mean I straight away that either So I've got a load if I don't hear those bleeps, I've got a load of things flashing up on my screen. And so anyways, I was staring at this lad with Cerebral palsy, my dad nudges me and says - what what you doing? I was like, oh no, I'm doing to that lad exactly what I hate people doing to me. My dad was like Okay. Yeah, but what you thinking when you're looking at him? I was like, right- Nothing negative. I was actually thinking wow look -Yeah, that's a bit different, I didn't think he'd be able to do that, didn't think he would be able to get up that step - didn't think- So nothing negative then? I was like no nothing horrible. But my Dad just went well, that's what people are thinking when they're staring at you. So, suddenly from that point on I was very much like oh actually I get that I the whole staring thing. I didn't mind then because I was actually people are just watching me and interesting and some might be having the odd negative thought or poor him kind of thing, but actually most the time they're thinking something positive, you know, and I've then yeah great stories of them being like in the changing room at gym, you know in gyms and things of where I'm in the change rooms and round the corner I can hear two blokes going -Wow! did you see that guy with one leg running on that running machine, I'll never thought he'd be able to do that. It's like, Ok.. I don't mind the fact that people are staring at me, but that was you know, that was really hard thing to overcome as a young person in the teenage trying to get past that moment. Yeah, and there's also lows where you get to the point where you think sometimes actually what you can't do something or you can't find this way and you have to really pull yourself back up. It's not as easy, as always, I paint the picture that's easy that always find the way, you know, of course, there's some points where you're like... Oh Man! I can't do this. I can't find the way I can't see your way through this. But yeah, it's that moment where you've got the either decide ohh! no... just wont do it or actually some are really want some I really want to do then I'm gonna find the way and it's that picking yourself up by the bootstraps as they always say Yeah, because I'm even in there the empathy and the perspective. You know, of kind of stepping into somebody else's shoes. And I'm a big believer. I think people are amazing. I'm a big believer in. Yes. People and I think people do tend to think positively there's probably, you know feel awkward. Yeah. Or interest and I think we don't have enough conversation in the in the world. You know with my kids. My kids are not children now Stewart but I often encourage them to go talk to people and ask. What's that person doing? Or why? Go and ask them? Absolutely. I mean it the conversations to help people learn to talk about, it also helps people, to people with disability. So people lose visability, it helps them understand that people are interested in and it isn't negative. So there's a story, little story I always use of how it could have been completely different if it hadn't been me, how it would have been taken. So there used to be a hotel , in fact it's just been just been knocked down hotel called the Mayfair in Jersey and I used to go swimming there every lunchtime now to get to the swimming pool, you used to have to come out the change of rooms through reception down some stairs and into a swimming pool, to go swimming, and I used to go swimming, at the time I was actually training to do a stunt in Prometheus that I ended up not doing in the end, but I need to get really comfortable on the water which is why I was doing so much swimming. So anyway, when I go swimming I take off my clothes and my legs and things put them in the lock and I walk out on my knees. So I walk out the change room. And as I walk out this is totally true story, none of this is made up, but it was all at the same day and lady comes walking out the change rooms next to me at screams. Because all of us are there and she's like scream to that. So I kept walking across the reception go for the door down the stairs and there's another lady in the swimming pool with her children. And of course, they start going - Oh look at the man with no arms look at the man with no legs and the Mum panics -Get out the water get out of the water - takes the kids and leaves. So, I always tell the two different stories. Imagine if someone or if I had been really self-conscious first time I've gone swimming I've come out this lady screamed - Oh my God that she's terrified of this freak. He's then gone in there and the same day these lady and their kids are so scared they want to get out the pool. That's one way taking it. Would I have ever gone swimming again? Probably not. Would I have probably shut myself away, probably, but because it's me and I've grown up with this and I know and understand people and I've talked to people and have heard people asking me questions and encourage people. I know when I've come at that but changing rooms and made this lady screamed. I'm not surprised because she's just come out of the change rooms herself in the swimming costume and there's a man on these knees a groin height. So she just shocked she's surprises. It's just that so it's nothing about it's not about me. It's nothing negative. In fact, she's poor person who's actually surprised the most, likewise I'm then going to the swimming pool the kids are pointing at me, I'm happy with that, I'm fine with that Id have spoken to them and the good chat with them, but the Mum doesn't know that the Mum is thinking Oh my God this poor guy quick we need to get out so that he can have the pool to himself because my kids are never gonna stop this the whole time. So I know that she's trying to protect me it isn't a negative thing. She thought she was doing me something good. So for me, it was a complete reframe, and actually it was fine. You know, it was no one was hurt no ones was ..,If I had had the chance I'd have spoke to them all and had a good chat. But if it had been someone else if I hadn't been to confident the same situation could have really knocked them which is why I think people should always talk because you can always have that conversation because it helps the person with the disability to learn that people aren't staring negatively, they're not doing those things negatively towards them, it's actually misunderstood positive nature or misunderstood or just coincidence. Yeah, again, I'm hearing that perspective and empathy again, largely coming from you Stewart, and I'm kind of wishing, I'm wishing more people in the world were like that and I'm a big fan of change through education. So, I'm kind of hearing those themes I'm hearing empathy, perspective, educa... I'm hearing human connection. You're very human, but I've always liked that about you. Absolutely. I mean you look throughout my... Who was I talking to? It's someone I was talking to about how diverse my career has been but they said yeah, but every point it's always been about education, learning, nurturing up skilling it's always been through that no matter what, whether it was martial arts or gym fitness or whether it was actually the military and the film stuff was actually about learning and nurturing and upskilling and training and breaking boundaries down through to where I am now, it's all about actually it's all about education. Can we talk a little like, can we talk a little bit about the kind of the military and the film bit. Ummm, just tell us a little bit, because again you kind of going yeah, I think you said so yeah earlier on you said something the most bizarre thing I've ever done and then you went on to talk about something and I thought what about all the rest? What about what about military? What about from...tell us a, tell us a little bit about that? Yeah. Absolutely. It was it was really and I say it was really interesting, and it's fascinating now to look back on but a lot of it was down to us breaking down boundaries. So it started off and when I was in the British athletic Squad and before I quickly learned that I don't like running so I did the British athletic Squad about 18 for two years and then quickly realized I didn't like running and actually all the work I was putting it was making me miserable so I came away from that. But before I did we got contacted to provide ... would we go and be dead bodies in the background? I think it was actually for soldier soldier or something like that old all TV program and all they wanted to do is go around lie in the background and kind of just be dead bodies with limbs missing, nothing fancy. No special effects, nothing like that. And then we started getting picked up for that, to do quite a bit, you know, I didn't do Saving Private Ryan, but I did Band of Brothers didn't think other than those Soldier.. lots of little bits that were TV and film where we would just bodies in the background and what we, what I started to happen was there wasn't as many people with limbs missing there because we had Iraq and Afghanistan it was all kind of older people from second world war diabetes or a few Northern Ireland Falklands or motorbike accidents and we started to realize there was five of us. There were five guys that were doing all these jobs and we got to know each other and we just got friendly and I think three of them were Ex military and two of us were civvies, and we were all very fit, one of them was also on was a Paralympian on there for the running, we're all very fit guys. Reasonably young 20, I think obviously youngest in my late teens early 20s and most of them were late twenties early 30s all reasonable young, fit and we were into it. So we started meeting up because I did Judo and I knew how to fall properly for the martial arts, I trained them all up on how we could all fall properly, and what we started doing was whenever we were on the set we'd just start pushing the boundaries, you know, we'd start working together as a team. So actually do you want this just lying there or you know, we could fall off that and rather than when that explosion goes off you then have to cut put us in there, why don't you have us in there and we can be thrown and we started getting a bit of a reputation. So yeah, the stunt co-ordinators and crews and people start to get to know us, the special effects people started to get to know us because they would start casting us with prosthetics that would go and look like they'd been blown up and we got, started to get more and more of a reputation. And we did bigger and bigger things that my first biggest one was Gladiator where I got, you know quite kudos for the job that I went and did because it was a week's work, It was hard work, It was out in the rain out in the cold and actually we're doing all sorts of real big gigs as they call it there where you know with the main actors chopping my arms off and things so we started to get known , we started to get reputation. So three of the guys set up an agency called Amputees in Action and the tagline was brilliant - 'I'll only cost you an arm and the leg to be one of us' and so we set this up with the idea of being that at that point and it was a bit selfish we were being paid like 60 quid a day whereas, we were performing specialist stunt work in some occasions, you know, we've been blown off horses and chopped up and arms expert with squibs and all sorts and which should have been about a thousand pounds a day or something like that. So we started my own agency selfishly to say, can we get more money? And because we've got a good reputation. It was like, yeah, you can and we will never stunt men because you have to do a lot of hard work and qualifications to be a stunt man, and we just yeah, at my age. I was probably the only one who could have done that because I was already two ahead, I'd got two of the qualifications you needed but it would just never did we just suddenly became so busy doing this specialist stunt work, and we got more and more of a reputation and it was always pushing boundaries because I remember one in particular and there's a few of us on the set, and there was this runner there you have like runners that run around doing things and helping people and bless him, he was wonderful, but he said, he kept running around getting us teas and coffee and made sure we were sat comfy and really treating us like the poor little cripples in the corner and all day we let because yeah, we were lazy we were going out doing stunt work, we liked to rest of the day and then at the end of the day a mate of mine turned up who was able bodied, I think we were going off training somewhere so he come to pick me up and he walked it sat down -Oh Stu get us a cup of tea, will ya? So, I went alright then, jumped up , walked on my knees this poor guy had been running around all day and he was like what? what? I thought you guys were like that. no, no.... So, it was that constant pushing boundaries and make sure they knew that we could do this work and we were made of China. We weren't gonna smash we were actually and like said we got a good reputation for it a little bit the can do attitude as well. I remember one my my first big job I did actually as a stunt crew. So, We weren't stunt men, but we were employed on the stunt crew paid stunt wages, Ummm... there was a sudden urgent call that they needed the stunt team on set and there was me and the Paralympic guy I was on about and it was like stunt ,stunts need to be on set run, run, run and me and him were the first two there. So we bet all these able-bodied stunt men to the set and they were like - oh brilliant! Sound guys. So it was it was that constant pushing to get a reputation, and to do the work well, now what then happened was we we got contacted, I think Iraq was going on and Afghan was going on and we got contacted by a medical higher military personnel who would operated on one of the three guys who were ex-military that I mentioned, he'd operate on them and said look what you guys do in the stunt world and the movie world, could you do that for our troops? So we went along and it started off much like the movie work, it started off with- ahh ! we got to wrap them in China- we're only going to use them in the training hospital and we're just going to set them up with some special effects and things and just wheel them out on a bed, they won't do anything and my mate Darren Swift, Swifty who's... man, his, his life makes mine look boring. He's done some awesome things. He was blown up in Northern Ireland he's a double amp, so he's got two legs missing, walks around on his knees and has designed whole new Prosthetics that everyone uses now and he was the first person used and they were filming it, and these were, it was a training hospital, so, it was doctors and nurses, so people that work in the NHS all year round but are kind of reserves in the military is how you worked in those days. They opened the back of the wagon boat, of the back of the ambulance wheeled Swifty out. Now, Swifty was conscious for the entire time when he was blown up. So, all he did was act like he had when he was really blown up and they filmed these, they were filming it and you just watched time tick up, and no one's moving because he's screaming and shouting and he's pouring blood and he's got actual legs missing and he's able to Flap them around and they just weren't expecting it and it was 30, 40 seconds before a single doctor or nurse moved to help him, now, actually if he got three limbs missing that nearly is enough time to kill him. He'd bleed out. So all of a sudden we were like wow- these,it for the military and it went like a Shockwave. It was like these guys this this makes a difference and I always say actually the British army are quite good innovating, you know, they were in the Napoleonic war so, they were the first military to train with live ammunition and then they were the first military at this time to train with live casualties or with amputees. So again, it started off with just little jobs, but little small jobs, we got ourselves known more and more. We started pushing outside the box we bought in special effects people from the movies and started doing all sorts of amazing Prosthetics and things that could squirt blood and what I think the Pinnacle was we actually made the prosthetic that meant they were able to operate on that throat, to do a crike and actually cut into, fake blood would come out they could put a tube in we got chainmail around our necks to protect us. So it didn't matter we knew they weren't gonna hurt us. So we just got more and more, and we ended up the business ended up with hundreds of amputees working for us, you know, it was ex-military and civilians all these different people and we used to train them, we'd run training weekends for them to set them up because again, some people might not like it they might give them flashbacks, people with PTSD would be a problem. But so we should train them beforehand and treat them like a family and look after them we'd always have one of the senior guys, so, one of the five us would go out on every job with them and it got to the point we were away for you know, we'd be away for months on end just all over the world just doing this different training and flying around in helicopters, of course, you think accidentally end up with things like accidents happening and being shot up by accident or being crashes and things that are quite dangerous so and it was it was an amazing time, but it was one of those jobs like the movie work, where, actually it wouldn't always be consistent, but also if you've got Family you were way so much, you know, you've got to be a special type of person to be able to continue that once you've got kids and it got to the point like I mentioned at the start that the big boys so people like G4S and big companies started realizing there's a lot of money in casualty simulation and it was being used across the world by that point America picked it up, you know, we went out and helped them set it up and help them get their own amputees and so big businesses start getting involved. And of course, we just started losing contracts because we were just it was still just a five-man band running along and thankfully the, you know, I've seen that I moved to Jersey at that point and stepped away from the whole casualty simulation world. Although it did a little bit here once I landed on the island for our reserves and and actually the companies are still going smaller scales because as the war as the Iraq and Afghanistan wound down and there was less and less people, and they see the big companies close their casualty simulation and now it's back lovely to actually second generation the amputees, it's not the guys that set it up with me. They've all gone off and doing different things now, but people we trained up have now set up their own little casualty simulation and they are still employing amputees and people that have lost, to be able to go out and do that sort of training for military and actually civilian forces as well across the UK. Yeah, legacy, that kind of legacy is living on because ... I was wondering why did it all stop but the answer is family and it kind. Family for me, yeah. Kind of leaded me to, to kind of ask, you know, along the lines of...ummm... so, I know you have have kids, right, is and I've heard this your parents were very kind of inspirational and very key to that kind of mindset. Do you pass that on to your kids or do you just leave them to do whatever they want or ? ..... Yeah, absolutely, well at least I try, I think I try but don't think I'm as good at it as my parents were but you know, there's times when you know, you come in the house and you got a little ones and they wanted something that was high up and you walk in and find they built themselves a couple of chairs on top of things to try and reach stuff where was most parents walk in are horrified by that sort of thing. I walk in and go - That's brilliant, well done, that's great, but maybe come and get me next time but my favourite was a coming in, and find, I had two boys at the time, I got three kids now but two boys who must have that's six and seven maybe maybe younger than that one, they decided they wanted to tell you on that was in the in the study and it was on top of a Chester drawers. So they decided they would climb up the Chester drawers draws to switch to telly on, but then they'd also realized that the Chester drawers will fall over onto them, so one was holding the Chester drawers up will the other one climbed, you know part of me was like horrified another part of me was like really proud. That's great. That's the great thing about young kids is that they've not really got a fear of failure and they are willing to adapt. It's that (absolutely) and that that combination it's great in some circumstances, it's not great in others. You've hit the nail on the head there as well is that any kids have it? But we lose it as we get into adults and it's quite summit where, because go back even further , even when I was just yeah in my teens and and the limb Centre in Birmingham in Selly Oak, like I said, there weren't many people, young people with limbs missing so quite often when they met people we all got new kids or new parents or people with limbs missing new people with, that they've lost limbs they get me to come and talk to them and it became, quite often what I would talk to them about is actually the whole when the kid learns the walk, how often do they fall over, you know, and they don't give up do they not a single one of us, you don't see people sliding around on their bum or more crawling on their hands and kneed in their 30s and 40s because it was too difficult. Yeah, we do it. We all have that ability to just problem solve to keep going to push yourself to if it's something you want. It's in us, but we seem to forget as we older and I started using a little trick when I talk to people fresh and new with limbs missing especially legs and when I'd be talking to them and I talk about all this and actually if you want summit and you really want it yourself, then I always recommend people find a way themselves don't rely on the technology, don't necessarily rely on other people but have them there for support and ask them for help if you need it. And what I used to do is when I was talking to people is I'd take their prosthetic or their crutches and I'd put it over the other side of the room just casually while I'm chatting to them so they didn't flick as to what I was doing and then when I leave I'd be like a hand shake and does it all make sense, I'm always if you need me to talk to you again and they'd always go- no, no it's great, it's great, I get this now. Yeah, it's all I'm gonna do it. This is great- and as I leave nine times out of 10, they'd say can you pass me my leg or my crutches or my wheelchair? I'd always go- Nope- and I'd walk out the door. Yeah, because so they have to get it themselves, you know, and yeah, I'd have to be conscious of how fresh they are, I don't want them..... opening stitches or anything or causing themselves issues. but, if I'm seeing them generally they were healed and if, it's that it's that moment where they they realize- Oh Yeah, if I want that leg, I can get it, I can lie on the floor and roll across the floor on my side if I want to get to that leg. It's, that it's a very simple lesson but it just highlights to all of us that you can do it and they must you know, I always I do inspirational talks, you know our happily going along and talking schools or colleges even yeah, the old fashioned after dinner speeches, what I try and do though is always find something for people to do, like the contact lens that we mention the contact lens you want to try, you know, I'll get I'll do an exercise and get people to tie up their own shoelaces with one hand or tie up a tie with one hand. Just something fun little bit interactive but more importantly for me it's to make sure they don't walk out of there going Oh, he was amazing. Oh, he's just he can do anything. I want them to walk out there going ahh... actually he's the same as us. I can do this, 'm able to do that, It isn't, he's not he's not he's not Superman, he's just another bloke who happens to just had more practice at this sort of things. So they know it's them ,it's within them to do it. That's the, I'm in my career I've seen many inspiring people and they are truly inspiring but I've also been lots of corporate inspiration talks and I leave thinking I feel inspired but inspired to do what? and How? So, I think it's great what you've just said there about it's not about what you've done, it's about the fact that anybody can do it. Yeah, absolutely. This is, everyone's got it inside of them, we all had it when we were children, we've all done it with it's just as we get older we forget it. It's almost like a skill that we let lapse and it's a shame. Yeah. I think that fear of failure gets bigger. It gets bigger and things the risk the things that we think we're risking get, get bigger and I'm actually gonna show the absurdity of it ,I remember, you know, my career was working in finance started off as a cashier finished in London running running Big T- Teams and I always knew I wanted to go off and help people and do what I'm doing now, right? Yeah. Always, and when I handed my notice in a lot of people with surprised, they thought there was something wrong and other people said we, we wished you'd do it sooner because it's clear that you could do it. But I remember the conversation that really kind of spurred it, because bear in mind I had been working in the same organization 22 years, ummm, and I loved what I did and I I liked the organization and I was talking to my wife and she said to me Why? What's stopping you? And I suddenly blurted out -I said, I don't want to have to go move back into my parents house into my old bedroom with you and the kids. And I heard the obser...i cant even say it ... I can't even say it the absurdity of it, right, and she said to me- Cause that isn't gonna happen, is it David? You are you're not that little kid anymore, you're much older, you've got a rich CV, got tons more skills, but that's wasn't what I was saying to myself. I had a completely a different inner dialogue and it was in an echo chamber. I was only talking to my my self and I always remember that that moment, you know my kind of inner dialogue my inner thinking and reasoning holding me back and kind of that's what I'm hearing. I'm hearing a theme Stuart of what your parents did for you, they gave you that gift of recognize that thinking, don't feel bad for that thinking but but realize actually that's your inner dialogue and there's a different way of looking and I know, I love that, I kind of. Yeah. It's a really cool thing and I can see that you are passing that on to other people. That's also a really cool thing. It's really cool. It is, I think sometimes it's it's a fear of being embarrassed as well. It's it's not just the feel of face, that like you said, it's what feel of, like you said it's oohh! I'll have a go, it's what other people will think and, I think , a lot of time we all have to realize that we're all, we've all got things going on people getting embarrassed about all sorts of things, but actually most the time the people, so tripping over is a great example, yeah people trip over and you, you we've all done it and all tripped over in the High Street or the shop and got really embarrassed and the people around you've forgot it less than two seconds later, but you might carry it with you all day. I can't believe I tripped, I can't believe I did that and all those people saw me, actually those people they've got their own things, they get yeah, they got their own worries got their own concerns, they might tripped over five minutes later and that they now worrying about that, they forgot all about you tripping over. So, the only one who cares who's hanging on to that and who's letting it eat away at them is you. Yeah, you're not, and you're not important, as important in other people's minds as you think you are and it reminds me of one of the skills we show people very early on in the program is, umm, it's a technique just called Fast Forward. It's asking yourself will this matter in a week? And a lot of the times the answers, no, and if the answer is no, you make a conscious decision to drop it because we're all putting that emotional mental energy into things that possibly we don't need to and we could serve it for other, other things and you seem to bring that alive and what I find inspiring about you... Is not, not what you've done. I mean, that's cool what you've done look, forth. I think you're a fourth degree dan black belt, aren't you? Yeah. I think you've done the Island Walk which is something like. Yes, You've won gold and silver medals, you've got all that kind of military, what I find, I find that, I find, I admire you for it, what I find really inspiring is you taking that mindset and everything that your parents have given to you and everything that you've learned and you're passing it on. That's what I find inspiring but, you know, and many people say that about you anyway, So, I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask you one final question right, before we wrap up, right? If you could go back to your younger self, you know the kid with the the wooden legs and the Big Belt they had to strap on and walking down the, walking down the pavement, right, with one foot on the pavement one foot on the road. What advice would you give to yourself? Do you know what? I think I'd probably just spell it out clearer an earlier that, yeah, anything is possible, you just gotta find the way of doing it because I think I gradually learned that and actually for this maybe, spelled it out and actually pointed it out, a little bit early then maybe it would have moved, maybe I'd move faster or got it more done. I don't know but I think that's the only thing I'd do because, yeah, it's... I'm happy where I ended up, I'm happy with everything I've done so he's one of those ones ...aahh! would I give myself any advice, but I think actually I'd just spell it out and it's like anything's possible you've just got to find a different way of doing it. Thank you for that. You just go find, yeah. Okay, so if people are interested in you and your story where where do they find you? Where do they need to go is there a place they can find you is somewhere you'd like to send them? I generally tell people to get to my Instagram because I use that as a place to talk about sports achievements of things. So I'm @Pennstuart P (E) double N STUART definitely start following me, I kind of upload lots of Jiu Jitsu stuff but lots of other stuff as well. So in fact by the time this comes out it'll have been announced that I'm doing the London marathon in October. I'm doing it virtually here in Jersey so that I can walk it but it's still the London Marathon. So I'll be doing and it's 26 miles, 26 point two miles for the London marathon and but the most I've ever done in one days 21 miles. So when I did the island walk I did over two days. So this will be the this will be the biggest walk I've ever done in one day, so, start following me on there because they'll be loads of stuff both about my training and what's happening and also the problems and issues walking with prosthetics is a whole new different world if you're doing a long distance because obviously there's more chafing there's, there's spare parts that break and need to be done. So I'll be carrying the big backpack of spare parts and prosthetics with me as I go and so all sorts of stuff like that, but definitely follow me @pennstuart on Instagram and I'm also contactable on there as well, then I've had some great, yeah conversations with people around the world and generally about Jiu Jitsu, but other people who've said wow this what would you do if this situation, or is there a technique you could film and show yourself doing so I can copy it so it is interactive as well if you've got anything you can message me on there too. Yeah, correct. We'll put, we'll put the link in wherever people are listening to this podcast or if they're watching the YouTube video will put the link at the at, the end. I just one final thing. I'm kind of smiling thinking about you talk about carrying spare parts because you do actually now sound like I think he was called, Steve Austin wasn't he? He was - The Million Dollar Man. So, as soon as said spare parts, I was thinking right you truly are you truly are, you role modeling into The Bionic Man - Managed to get it! It's been fantastic to talk to Stuart, it's been absolutely brilliant. I'm so glad you could make the time and I'm sure I'll see you around anyway, right, because we're both local but good luck, good luck with the the marathon again another Innovative way to achieve something. I'll certainly be watching it and following your, your progress and thank you so much. Thanks again for your time. I'll see you soon. Thanks very much, David. Bye. Thanks for listening to the Resilience Development Podcast and I hope you walk away feeling inspired uplifted and motivated to step out of your comfort zone and try something new. I recommend you check Stuart's Instagram @Pennstuart and follow his adventures. I'll see you in a fortnight.