How KeepCup inspired a global movement

Want to inspire a global movement? Scale your business world-wide and find the right kinds of people to partner with?

In the latest She Mentors episode we speak to entrepreneur and trailblazer, Abigail Forsyth, co-founder of KeepCup. We discuss the early days of designing and launching reusable coffee cups; the struggles of scaling; and lessons learnt along the way.

Abigail also speaks to COVID-19’s impact on the economy and advises business owners to be "brutally realistic about” what survival during this global disaster might mean.

We discuss:

👉 The early days of KeepCup
👉 Key partnerships & collaborations
👉 The struggles of scaling globally
👉 Copycats and trademarking
👉 The devastating impact COVID19 has has on the economy and environment
👉 Advice for business owners struggling during this time

About She Mentors

She Mentors is a mentoring platform for women in business. We are a purpose-driven community where everyone in our membership gives back 1 hour each month to help someone else. Want to be a part of an incredible movement? Become a member>>

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:04

[inaudible]

Speaker 2: 0:04

Hi and welcome back to the shaman toast podcast. My name is Allie Ady and today I'm chatting with Abigail Forsyth. The cofounder of keep cup. Most of you will already know about this brand, but for those of you who don't keep cup is a global movement that helps divert millions of disposable coffee cups from landfill every single day. And it all started in our hometown of Melbourne. And this chat, we talk about the early days of Kit-Kat, how Abigail and her brother scaled the business globally, the challenges they faced, designing and manufacturing lessons learned along the way and how to inspire a global movement. If you want to learn from more women in business, just like Abigail, then definitely check out shaman tours.com day. All our members take part in the mentor hour each month and are constantly exchanging skills, wisdom, and knowledge. Alright, let's dive into the interview. Lovely to have you on the Shane Mantle's podcast. Nicest. Thank you, Allie. Yay. We're really excited about interfering as I was just saying our fair. Um, all of our members are super excited to hear the origin story of Kate kerf and obviously high scale globally as well before we launch into all those questions. So I literally got like such a long list. So we might be here today. Do you want to tell people just a bit about yourself and your background before Kiko? Yeah, sure. So, um, yeah, I am a, I guess I'm a lawyer made good. So I studied law, um, worked in a really small little law firm with a fantastic, um, team. And I guess I realized there that my skill was probably not in the, like my best advice was always walk away and find a commercial solution. So I just guess I had that sort of attitude. And then my brother was working in England and he would call me up every week with a new business idea. And one day he said, I've seen[inaudible], um, why don't we do that? And I was like, well, you know, I'm a good cook. I like people. How hard can it be found out? It was super hard. And it was in that business, um, that we store the rise and rise of the disposable cup realized they weren't recyclable and thought this is, you know, this is a waste crisis. What are we going to do about it? And from there we manufacture keep cuff and I think, you know, yeah, it was just, it's just one solving one problem after another and seeing, seeing a problem that you're passionate about solving, I guess. Yeah, definitely. So you had a cafe in Melbourne. We had seeks yeah. Sex. And so how long were you doing that before you sort of pivoted 10 years. 10 years? Yeah. And what were you saying? Like obviously no one had feasible caps. Like what was it that kind of triggered you? Well, when we started, so it was in the late nineties, it was when disposable cups were starting come onto the market. And I remember people saying, Oh, I don't want to drink out of a disposable carpet. It's not a nice experience. You know, I feel like a baby drinking out of a sippy cup and then 10 years later and we're doing it and we don't even think twice about it. So, you know, to be there when you see something new that people struggle with and then see it become commonplace is sort of a, a good perspective to think, well, there must be another way to do this. Like it's those cultural norms. And I always, when, um, you know, I'd thought about it for a long time and, and, you know, before I started the business, I had a baby had my first daughter best and I read Jared Diamond's collapse. And it's about how different cultures have collapsed on earth, the Mayans, the Easter Island, the Greenlanders, and often it's about cultural norms that we think we can't change and it ends up, you know, collapsing our society. And you can see that happening now. We've got cultural norms around convenience that we think are, you know, can't change. And actually they have to, if we're to survive as a species. Absolutely. I think that's why it's so inspiring what you've done. And I think when you first kind of were thinking about the idea, did you have any idea how it would cry? Like I, you know, I w I, you know, as I sort of had a baby, um, I, I was passionate about the sustainability part of it. And, um, my brother said, you know, I was doing with my brother, Jamie, and he's like, Oh, you know, you can make, you know,$150,000 a year. That will be enough for you to, you know, keep it growing. And I thought I'd be able to do it at home from the garage. Like I had no idea and really didn't and the interest didn't really have the aspiration to turn it into anything global either. I just was doing my thing. So good. Say like, how did it all start? So you had the idea and then did you have to kind of, well, obviously design the concept pitcher. Got it made. I think I had a, you know, we had a really clear idea of what we wanted the product to be. So we wanted it to sort of look and feel like a disposable cups that didn't have to be a big, um, transition for PayPal. Like it sort of would feel similar and I wanted it to be something that you could carry, um, not conspicuously. Like you could just do it without, I felt like there was a gap where people, you know, in the late nineties, if you, or the early two thousands, if you wanted to be green and sustainable, you had to be a green aid and you had to sort of transform your whole lifestyle. Whereas the problem is so immense that we need everyone doing something, and it doesn't matter if, you know, we're all hypocrites in this. So, um, that was part of it. I'm sort of digressing a bit. And then, um, yeah, so then we had it designed that it's really fun process. And then you go to manufacturing and then the rubber hits the road. Like it's not sealing it's how do you get it to work? Who's going to pack it, like all those op you know, has the back end going to work, how are going to, um, you know, when we first sold, keep cup, we sold it the first or one of our first orders was to campus coffee in Sydney. And they, they bought 10,000 and we sent it to them, our shadow. Now we sent it to them in bits. Cause we're like, well, we're sustainable. So you don't, you can't put it in a box. So we just send all these bits and people had to assemble them, tell them they got them out of the box

Speaker 3: 6:35

When it says that, did you like who designed it for you?

Speaker 2: 6:38

So, um, we ha we work with a firm called cobalt and we still work with them today. So they, um, helped us with the design.

Speaker 3: 6:46

Yeah. Yeah. And then how many kinds of iterations of the design did it take you to kind of get to the standard that it is now, or is

Speaker 2: 6:53

Evolving? I think it keeps evolving. So it keeps evolving around materials around longevity around. So, you know, initially the really tricky part of the product design is the lead. So initially it just had to fit to plastic and plastic can be manufactured really precisely. So, um, then we had to get the lid to fit to glass, which is really, um, imprecise, like, you know, every glass that you have has a, a slight[inaudible] to it. So fitting that, um, and now we're trying to get it to fit to steel. So which again has it has different, um, issues around how the tolerances work there. So it's it's yeah. It's the process.

Speaker 3: 7:35

And then, so what was the reaction when you first kind of took this to market? So did you start, you said you had the first order from Sydney, which was 10,000. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:42

Which is a huge first order. Yeah. So, um, when we first got the design, like I wanted to manufacture it locally. So we went around to local manufacturers or one guy said, you know, this is just a cup, basically, what are you thinking? And he said, I've seen lots of great designs fail because people couldn't sell the idea. They couldn't sell what, what it was. So go around and try and sell it in. If you can't sell it don't even bother manufacturing it. Um, and it was great advice. So because we own those cafes blue bag, we did a lot of catering through them. So I called every company that we sold catering to and tried and pitched K-cup. Um, and from there, we got an order from the national Australia bank and from energy Australia. Um, so that was before we even finished the, so we knew we had a market there. Um, and then the story of that campus is pretty funny actually. Cause we did some design markets and immediately, you know, in truth immediately, there was an audience for cake cups. So people were saying, this is my idea. You've stolen it. Or, you know, I've been thinking about this problem, thank goodness someone's done something about it. So there was immediately or, um, when you got the design, right? Cause people were saying, I don't even know what it is, but I, I love like, I like it a lot. I want it I'm attracted to it as the design object. Um, but then we did a design market in Sydney and a girl said to me, look, I'd, I'd love to carry one of these. I think it's the right thing to do, but I drink campus coffee and they're way too cool for, for this product. And then it wasn't even asked like then we'll young from campus called a week later and said, I've been looking for a product like this for a decade. I want to buy 10,000. So like, you know, and, and that was a real light bulb moment for us. And so we're like, you know, if you get the people who are, who are the cool people in coffee and today like keep cup, then you're going to be able to see that that's the unlocks, the permission for people to reuse. It's finding those people who are the people who are going to unlock this behavior change or because a lot of people said would, you know, I did talks in the early days and people would come up to me and say, look, I've got one, but I'm just too embarrassed to take it into the coffee shop. Like I, I don't want to interrupt the barista. I don't want to, you know, I don't want to make a fast basically. So it took a few, it took a lot of brave people, not brave, but the glut of people to go in there and go, I want this, I want you to feel this. And then, you know, if you think about it, the barista sees those disposable cups every single day. They're the one using thousands of them. So, you know, I remember going into a cafe and the guy goes, Oh, cool. Keep cup. I'm like, that's what you want. Like, that's going to create that behavior change. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 10:28

That's so fascinating. And how long was it from sort of idea to conception and then selling? It was it we're talking like years. Are we talking about cheese? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's an amazing achievement in two years to go from like idea to sort of, you know, the first order of 10,000 cups. And then how did it sort of grow from there? Like, you know, you had that first order then them, were you thinking about like manufacturing, you know, on a global scale or did that kind of happen organically?

Speaker 2: 10:57

That has happened organically? I'd say my brother was probably the more, um, I guess ambitious of the two of us in how it might work globally. And I've got two brothers and the other brother, um, was traveling in the UK at the time. And, um, we just kind of thought of, you know, just do it over there. It's going well in Australia, it'll go well in the UK, which of course was not true because, you know, in the UK at the time 80% of the coffee industry was big chains, whereas in Australia it was different. So we've got, you know, our heartlands always been the independent coffee scene. Um,

Speaker 3: 11:31

I was just about to say that because obviously I'm from the UK. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:34

And coffee's just, what just, wasn't a thing. Like it was

Speaker 3: 11:37

Always to Starbucks and those kind of massive store chains. And I was really curious about that to say, like, what was that reaction, you know, when you took it to the UK and the U S where they don't have the Melbourne coffee scene?

Speaker 2: 11:48

Well, I mean, we've just had to find those little independence once again and drive it from there because it's always, you know, we're, we've been in McDonald's for a long time, but that was driven by customers. No one else it was customers who said, Oh, can you fill my reusable cup? Why don't you have a reusable cup? And then they would try and get him some, you know, no brand one. And I go, no, we actually want Pete cup. And I think, um, the other sort of sacred source we've always had is because we, you know, you, you do things there's gotta be that balance of doing something sustainably and then doing it because you love it. And, um, I tell the story about my grandma. Um, she had this like quite revolting looking ceramic mug that was chipped and it was all stained Brown. And, you know, um, I say, got her a new one for Christmas and she never used it. She kept using that old, old cheap plan. And it's like, well, you, you use the things you love and enjoy using. So we had to, you know, through the color, through the design and through creating a really strong association with good coffee and cake up, we've been able to, you know, we want to, um, McDonald's to purchase, keep cup, to be more sustainable. But I think they probably one of the main drivers was, um, help them build a reputation around good coffee. Like it's, it's the connection with keep cup and good coffee is, is a big part of being a big part of our success. I think those brand collaborations or partnerships that are so important, as he said, what were their kind of other big collaborations you had early on that sort of helped you your growth, um, will CA can pass? Um, I think in the UK it was probably brick by brick, the small coffee chains. Um, and I think, you know, the, the other adventure Cape cup is it's one time I met some guy, a guy to trade show, and I was telling him about how, you know, with Kate copy, you tell a story because someone sees you in the coffee queue and says, what's that? And they say, keep cup. And he said, ah, it's called brand in hand, I'm from Coke. And I was like, Oh,

Speaker 4: 14:03

Okay.

Speaker 2: 14:04

That's what it is. Right. And so you, if you can embed their story, like the storytelling of your product, and then people see it and ask a question and hopefully you're the person carrying, keep cup can tell, you can tell the person why they're using it. And that inspires change. Isn't it funny now how it's flipped, but I actually feel embarrassed if I forget my cake cart and I walked down the street with a disposable coffee cup, I actually feel a bit like, Oh God, I'm being judged. Like, why have I forgotten that? Like lately flipped

Speaker 4: 14:36

Excellent.

Speaker 2: 14:38

Used to be that you'd see someone walking down the street and you'd like, they'd have to keep having, there'd be a bit of a, a nod. Whereas now it's like, if you say dispose of copy, you're like, what are you doing? Like get with the program. So I'm still curious about the sort of global scaling did you, what was the strategy behind it? Did he think this is a good market? So I go for this country first, or should I like, how did you figure that out? I look, um, the, the first, that first market we did in 2009, um, there was a blogger from a partner therapy in LA blog and they blogged about cake cup that weekend. And we, because we'd set up our website, um, to be global, we got seven orders from America that first weekend that we, we launched the product that was accomplished. And it probably cost us more to send those cups than it did. You know, we felt we made no money out of it, but we always took the approach that we will service demand wherever, wherever it is in the world, um, to sort of grow the brand and the business that way. And so I guess, I think we just really followed those leads. We did a lot of trade shows in those early years. And from that, we got a lot of interest from distributors and probably learn a few lessons, you know, like, um, we had a distributor in Japan who placed a really big order, but then they were probably too big for us because they didn't really want to service that sort of the cool coffee community in Japan. I didn't want to sell one at a time. They wanted to sell them in cases. So it's about, I guess, matching the distributor, you know, distributors will only pick, they'll go for the low lying fruit. So you have to be really well aligned to them naturally in order to get that takeout. Otherwise you're asking them to sort of step outside their own business model to sell your product. So we learned a few lessons there. Um, yeah. So, and then were you kind of like having to sort of guide companies and pitch or where you kind of relying on word of mouth at this point? Oh, no. I was pitching, pitching my heart out with that. Cause I find that like a lot of my experience is that a lot of people aren't comfortable with necessarily the sales part of it. I have a business, if you're passionate about something, you can talk about it and that's great then like closing a deal, negotiating like a lot of the women in my community, struggled with that a little bit. I don't know. I, I always quite enjoyed it, passionate about the product, sell the product and you know, I've always told us team, like it's not a hard sell. Like if people are, you know, we're a sustainable business, there's no point forcing the product on someone. If they're not going to use it, like, I don't want you to sell someone 60 cups when, you know, they can only sell 20 within a sort of a selling cycle. So, you know, we've always been very soft in that approach and it's worked pretty well for us. Like, it's gotta be, it's gotta be a win, win. Like if, if the customer can't sell them through or that their audiences engage it, then we haven't waive and done what we're supposed to be doing, which is reducing, you know, reducing impact. So it's sort of all, it all ties into that.

Speaker 3: 17:59

Yeah. And I read somewhere that your, one of your taglines with them purpose before profit. I love that. Yeah. I think that's great. I think the shaman antis values align closely with that because it is about being more than just a profitable business. It is about driving change and then inspiring that kind of global movement. And it's, I think it's really inspiring that you kind of started the journey and you were like, I had no idea how this was going to go do it.

Speaker 2: 18:24

When I think about, she meant I'm like, I'm still learning. Like, you know, it's yeah. It's that attitude of like, I've still got so much to learn about what I'm doing.

Speaker 3: 18:34

Yeah. It's a constant learning process. I think that's why, that's why it's nice to talk to you. And so those early days in the struggle it's like, what would you say were your biggest struggle? You said you had a baby as well. Um, which obviously adds a whole new level of element to the mix. Yeah. How was that?

Speaker 2: 18:52

Oh, look, I think the struggles probably the struggles have always been the same. I think in the early days when I had a young baby and I thought I need to get in someone who knows more than me to run the business and that didn't work out too well because you know, no one's as passionate about the business as I am. So I know it. So there's always that confidence trick and you know, you need to surround yourself with people sometimes who know more than you, but then there's bits of the business that no one will let, and then as the business grows, you have so much history of what's happened before, but it's, you know, then it's about trying to get that out, you know? And so, you know, the brand guidelines used to be, I like it, or I don't, and now I've had to sort of articulate, well, what is it that I like? And I don't, how can someone else possibly create that into a decision making process rather than a gut feel? So, yeah. And it's, so it's that balance of getting people who can do what you need to be done, but also say, well, see that idea you've had, I'm going to make it even better than you thought it could be. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 20:01

Came gray. Did you just bring on a couple of people at the start? And it's like, how many people do you have now?

Speaker 2: 20:07

Uh, um, the way it grew was my dad used to have, um, he had his own business selling, um, computer consumables. So like, you know, computer ribbons when they were like this big and you'd wind them on. Um, and then he sold his business when I, and I was, um, the lawyer who sold it, like in the legal team when he sold it, which was really nice. But anyway, so the business started and dad's like, Oh my God, you've got a tiger by the tail. So he pulled, he called up his old crew. So, um, that sales, uh, sales manager, Mara, your Mooney is still our sales manager. And she worked with my dad and was my brother's basketball. Um, and then our warehouse manager, Steve, um, who else did he pull in? Oh, and Sue, who does our book? So, you know, he, he helped put, pull, he pulled his old team back together. And then from blue bag, we had, um, quite a few people who came with us where we sold blue bag once keep cup took off. And then a lot of people jumped with us, but backyard cafe. Yup. Yeah. Yeah. So it was people you knew that you built the team with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then new people along the way, but yeah, it made all the difference because the hiring people is such a tricky one. Yeah. It's so hard. And I've been, have you ever read that book by Verne Harnish scaling up really amazing. Like he talks a lot about all of this, but it's like, you spaced at like hire people who are like completely different to you. So he phases it like a bunch of weirdos who can do all the jobs that you hate, but they felt like it gives that managy, but it drains my energy. So like, you hire all these people who are like, love it, their element of the business. Um, and then it talks about like topgrading people when you interview them, instead of having this sucks, be all good interview where you're like, Oh, I really liked her. She was amazing. I think she'd be a great fit. You actually like top grade the interview, uh, based on their skills and you take out the whole like emotional connection out of it. It's fascinating because I am someone who would definitely hire people. I love around me. And it's just, I'm just at this point now in my business where I'm kind of thinking about scaling and bringing on more people.

Speaker 5: 22:21

Yeah. I think I'm not sure that's okay.

Speaker 2: 22:24

Yeah. That wouldn't probably be my experience of it. Cause you also need people who can hold you to account. So you need people who and the people, and they've got to be people that you trust. So if someone's got a completely different idea of what good business looks like, and they say to me, that's not a good idea. I'm going to go, I don't care. Whereas if someone who I highly regard and trust and they go, what are you doing? You're going to stop and go, actually, I'm going to rethink that. So there's a bit, I think there's a place for that, but there's, you've got to have people that you really, that share your values and that you can rely on when you sort of start to drift off course a bit to go, Hey, is that really what you want to be doing? Yeah, definitely. I think that's, um, that's important to me to have a tailor made that, you know, love, she mentors and love the vision. Unfortunately, I do have that, but I think when you start growing a business, like how many people do you have now in your business? Do you mean pre COVID or post COVID? So well, we were at a hundred and I think we'll end up being about 35. Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah, yeah. That's right. Yeah. It's just the way it, the way it goes down, I think, you know, keep, cup's done a great job of, um, establishing a brand category of reusable and now there's a truck ton of competitors in that it's a highly competitive space. So how have you dealt with like the copycats and all of that, you know, other brands that sort of put forward replica, you know, part of it is, you know, a bit of, um, bonhomie to say, great, you're expanding the category. You're you're driving reuse. Awesome. Part of it is, Oh my God, you've just copied exactly what we've done, how boring, um, some of them we've had to take on some of them we just ignore. Yeah. So it's a combination. And also, I guess it's when people, you know, we've worked really hard to build a really strong, ethical supply chain and when people are trading off that supply chain, but don't have those credentials that, you know, that's a bit annoying, definitely some way or another that, you know. Um, but I think that trademarking and competitors and copycats has, um, tricky woman needs grabbing, especially with the product. Yeah. So I haven't talked to me about coronavirus. How has it impacted? Cause I mean, I've seen people just completely abandoned K-cup when, when actually we can still use them now it's this whole thing of like, I, I feel as if I take my cake cut to a cafe that they're going to judge me for bringing like eight cup now, because they think that's got more gems on it. Then I think the science has debunked this whole idea of surface transmission. And I think the surface transmission study, I think if you track it back, it's going to have come from the big plastics lobby trying to stop single use bag bans. Um, so yeah, I think that we're going where we will continue to really push hard on that banning of single use now. So I think there's a real opportunity for us to open up that advocacy at a bit harder and talk and talk to back to bands on single use products. I think quite the Queensland government's just put forward some proposed legislation about that, which is fantastic. Um, but you know, it's just the difficulty of our it's one. I think there's probably a glut of single use, sorry of reusable cups on the market, just with the volume of competitors that were coming out, just pre COVID too. You know, a lot of the cafes will not survive. I mean, cafes, you know, I know from working there, the margins are super, super tight. I don't know how it must be incredibly stressful for them at this time. Um, so I don't think there's, some of them will not make it through this, um, period, um, retail as well. Like that's gonna struggle. So there's lots of changes that are, um, I don't know, in some ways that they could be positive changes for the environment and for if we can get our act together about what a green recovery looks like, as opposed to just turning back on the fossil fuel and the guests tab. Um, so I see some positives in it as well. It's just, it's just changes. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 26:48

Just how do you think you'll kind of evolve over the next sort of couple of years, bearing in mind with just had this crisis and we'll continue to,

Speaker 2: 26:57

Oh, look, we've got some new alternative to single use products in the pipeline that we'll really release probably early next year. So that's quite exciting. And just, I guess it's just enabled us to look up. So yeah, when the, when we were adjusted about to sign a new lease in the U S when the pandemic hit, like my hand was on the sign thing and, um, when it happened, I was just like, this is, this is going to get too hard and America's going to get ugly. So we just shut that office down right. Bright back in February. So, you know, there was some sadness about that because we'd been in there for seven years. Um, you know, and it's probably the, it's, what's our most challenging market. But then for me personally, like, you know, when you've got a business that's not doing as well as it could be in the staff aren't doing as well as they could be. It's always a bit of a sick feeling in your stomach that you could be doing it better and that feeling's gone. So, you know, there's some, there's some silver linings for me personally, about it as well. Like what am I here? You know, I guess we've all asked ourselves in this time, what am I here for? What am I doing? How do I want to live my life? And do I really want to be sort of struggling away with this U S office? And, um, yeah, when it's, you know, it's not working for me professionally or personally, so yeah. It's funny how

Speaker 3: 28:26

These things do have a way of, I don't know, redirecting a slightly. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's good to listen to that gut feeling and think actually it wasn't quite right. Um, there's a reason for that.

Speaker 2: 28:39

Well, yeah. I mean, it was, I guess it provided me with the opportunity to make that very decisive move was the U S

Speaker 3: 28:48

Cause you're in 65 countries. Aren't you?

Speaker 2: 28:50

Yeah. With the U S

Speaker 3: 28:52

Do you say that was your toughest market or toughest challenge?

Speaker 2: 28:55

Yeah, it was the toughest challenge for me personally in like, um, I think because my brother started the U K office, there's a bit of a cultural, I don't know I was born in Scotland, so there's a bit of a, yeah, there's a bit of a cultural connection there with the UK and the UK team, whereas America is a different based altogether and, um, yeah, I guess I struggled to manage the team well and struggled to get the right people into the business. So yeah,

Speaker 3: 29:26

Yeah. Really difficult as well. I think with the time difference with, um, being in Australia, I think it's just really difficult. Like I was in the UK and, um, working with some people in the U S um, and that was okay. But then if you're here trying to work with the UK and the U S it just, it's just really difficult. Yeah. Although I will say like that, the other thing about this lockdown is in the pandemic has been that, you know, we've have become more of a global team with the UK. So because all the meetings are about it's it's, you know, whereas it felt like, you know, there'd be all these people in a room and then one person in, or two people in the UK office, whereas now everyone's remote. So it's sort of, it's even that playing field a bit about remote work and global teams, which has been really good. Yeah. I think that's great. Um, what kind of advice do you have for other people going through this sort of pandemic can perhaps feeling uncertain about their business? It's a difficult, it's difficult to say, but I think you've really got to listen to what you've got to really think about what you think is going to happen in the next 12 months, two years, and what that's gonna mean for your business and be re, be brutally realistic about what those changes and challenges are going to be. Um, because you know, probably most businesses to a certain extent going to be in survival mode. So what's, what's it going to take, so your business to survive and are you prepared to do that? Like, yeah. That'd be a really telling time, particularly for Melbourne. I think the next sort of three to six months, but clearly outlook at the moment, I think, but it's like, I don't know part of me is like, something like this had to happen because, you know, following behind the pandemic is, you know, the climate crisis and biodiversity collapsed. Like, what are we thinking? You know? And even for business, like keep up, like the growth we had and the cups we were selling, it was sorta, my kid may feel sick. Like who's using all these products and where are they going? Like, do we, we can't, we can't consume our way to a more equitable and greener society. That's for sure. Like, yeah. That's an interesting way to look at it actually. Yeah. Cause that's the thing. I mean, I only have one keep cut. I don't have dreadful. So I guess that is something that you're thinking about. It's like, Oh yeah, it's different purchasing this many that it kind of is a double edged sword. Yes. It's been really lovely chatting with you. And I've really enjoyed hearing the story of like how you've evolved and great. And I reckon this there's so much, but I mean, you personally as well, I think there's so much that you can share and help other people with, because you've built this incredible business. And I think lots of our members already take a lot of, um, take heightens from this interview. So I haven't been too gloomy. Haven't, we've done little nights as I was going on and I can see of the things that I really loved, you know, even their advice about if you can't, it don't manufacture it. In other words, validate your product before you go and spend all that money. Like even that that's like little nuggets of wisdom that, you know, you need to hear that stuff. Cause I don't think enough people kind of say that. And then you might invest all this money on a new website or ordering products from China or whatever. And then you don't sell that. Um, I think, and also the stuff around like partnerships, um, you know, getting the cool people in your industry to like, like the product, you know, to kind of amplify it for you. That's again, that's like such good advice because I feel like there's so much we can do with collaborations and partnerships for small brands and business owners who are just starting out. Like you were, that's the only way really to get in front of lots of people and get them loving what you're doing. So I think, you know, as you've talked to her, we'll be making all these nights and I just think it's really nice to hear your story and your thoughts. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:34

And I think, yeah, be aware the influences we've never used them. And because if you're trying to build a genuine product with a genuine movement behind it, you need genuine people. You can't have people who are cached for comment. Yeah. I think,

Speaker 3: 33:48

Yeah, totally. I think a lot of people have been burned through using influences and that particularly when you've got like a purpose driven product, I don't think you need to go down that route. You need to find people who share your values to collaborate with on these things. Um, and that's, that's an important one. Cause I think some people just think influencer marketing is the answer to their products and then they gift the influencers and the influencer maybe does a story, but maybe not. And then they go, yeah. So it's really interesting. So now I think you've shared lights. Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed it because I've been curious to hear how you guys have. Yeah. I've been tracking through COVID and I'm sad to hear that you're going to lose lots of people, but I think it, like you said, it's an inevitable thing at the moment for lots of companies to have to.

Speaker 2: 34:32

Yeah. And I think it's not, you know, I mean, I guess I shared it to say that I, yeah, it's not a failure to have like these things coming and there's, there's more changes going to happen on the back of it. Like this whole idea that the economy is going to bounce back. Like the bottom line is we need to really reframe, you know, we're, our whole system is predicated on limitless growth and that's not possible. So how are we going to reframe what we do and, and rethink through?

Speaker 3: 35:04

Mm yeah. There's a lot of questions. And I think it is a really good time to think about that and to take stock because suddenly you do have lots of time, you know, more time than perhaps you would before. And like for some of the women who've lost their jobs, three coronavirus and who and our membership, they're actually using some of this time to give back as they deem it the mentor hour. And I think that if you can't, you know, earn lots of money through your business, you can at least align yourself with something that, you know, you'll feel passionate about and actually has a purpose. Um, and again, that's one of the reasons why people love Kate cup. Cause it's just the curve, it's the story behind it. It's what you guys are campaigning for. And I think that's why I wanted to interview you because I there's so much more to the keep cup. Like you said, it's a signifier of intention and you know, we have to treat, you know, we have to treat that with utmost respect as we drive the business forward. Yeah. And just before we wrap up, like what are the, what has been the impact of Cape curb? Do you have the stats to hand? No, because the impact is yours. Like, I don't know what you do with the product. So it belongs, you know, that's the nice thing about it too. It doesn't belong to us. It belongs to all the people who use keypad. Yeah. But I think it has become, you know, a stepping stone in a journey because once you start using keep cup, then you start thinking about other things. You, you know, you're on the beeswax wrap, you're on the reusable containers. Like it, it takes you somewhere, which it definitely does. Yeah. I actually got one of the beeswax wraps I'm best. I use too much clingfilm. And like, so then getting into like tapware and things for like avocados to cover, but you're right, because I just can't find a good one. Um, but you're right. It does inspire you to think about all of this plastic that you're constantly using and you know what, like five years ago? Well, maybe, maybe I was thinking about it then, but definitely not sort of 10 years ago, I was never thinking about all the plastic and going into supermarkets and how everything was individually, individually wrapped in the UK that like, I remember traveling to the UK go, Oh my God. Cause I used to the fruit shop here where it's all open, you know, nothing's packaged and you go, yeah. And my lovely mama, she she'd always bring and still does actually bring home avocados that are in a Tupac, like packed with plastic over the top. Could you not just get the woman's? And she's like, Oh, that's all I had. And you know, Sainsbury's or wherever. And I'm like, why, why are they doing it? Ha. And it doesn't occur to my mom necessarily cause she's in her seventies, but it's just a habit and say with me, like chipping in it in the rear, you know, she kind of don't think about it now. Yeah. But I remember my auntie used to wash glad rep my partners. He said she used to like literally get the clean zone, put it on the other thing that it dried and reuse it. And I was like, she was before a time. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it is a stepping stone. And thank you so much for all you do. Where can people find out more about you and keep cap? Do you want people to connect with you on LinkedIn or visit the website? Instagram. The website. Yep. Perfect. All right. Well thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. Lovely to talk to you. I hope you enjoyed the episode with Abigail. I'm looking forward to seeing what's next for kicker and I wish them all the best over the next few months, let us know what you think of the X paid by tagging us on it actually maps. And I particularly want to say any shots to be holding your Cape cup. That would be really fantastic, particularly as not as many people are using that. Keep cups during coronavirus. So give us a tag, tell us what you think of the episode. And of course, if you're interested in learning more about sheep mentors and our own purpose, then hop over to[inaudible] dot com.edu. We would absolutely love to meet you. There are so many incredible women in our membership who all give back one hour, every single month to someone else. There are no other communities that are doing this. And I strongly urge you to come and say hello to us and joy and our purpose driven community setting. Lots of love. See you next time.