Sidewalk Conversations
"Let the one who thinks he stands, take heed lest he fall..." (1 Corinthians 10:12)
Standing strong and remaining true to your calling is no easy task. No one sets out to crash and burn. In fact, it's actually the opposite, most people want to stand strong, remain effective, and be true to their values all the way through to the end. But, it is really hard to do.
In these interviews, Piet Van Waarde (a 40 year veteran of pastoral ministry) has heart-to-heart conversations with ordinary people about what it takes to stay faithful and effective in the things that matter most.
Sidewalk Conversations
Faith, Career, and Family with John Koke
What happens when the paths of engineering and faith intersect within a family known for its spiritual leadership? Join us as my brother, John Koch, shares his enlightening journey from a household of pastors to a career in engineering. Through humorous anecdotes and heartfelt memories, we explore how our father's subtle influence and passion for innovative projects might have inadvertently steered John toward his vocation. Whether it's recounting his mathematical prowess in high school or the joy of working on family projects, John's story is a testament to the confluence of upbringing, talent, and passion.
As we navigate the evolving challenges facing the modern church, this episode draws parallels between problem-solving in engineering and church leadership. Together with John, we discuss the crucial role of teamwork and diverse viewpoints in addressing skepticism and declining attendance. By leveraging insights from our engineering backgrounds, we explore how churches can adapt and find a relevant voice in today's cultural landscape. This segment is a call to action for leaders to embrace fresh perspectives and craft innovative strategies in their spiritual missions.
The episode takes a deeply personal turn as we delve into the realms of parenting, forgiveness, and resilience. Through stories of family life and Wendy's courageous journey with her spine condition, we underscore the power of faith and supportive partnerships. From the complexities of parenting to the redemptive purpose found in life's struggles, our conversation highlights the importance of being present and adaptable. John's narrative, along with Wendy's unwavering strength, offers listeners an inspiring reminder of the courage it takes to navigate life's unexpected challenges while holding onto a vision of hope and purpose.
Learn more about our amazing sponsor Stone Stash Coffee.
Thank you for being here for the Clemson game.
Speaker 2:Yes, Giving us an excuse to do this. I am pleased to be here to watch this game. Unfortunately, this will air, and so anything I say about them winning may look pretty foolish.
Speaker 1:But we did bring the orange in just for you. Well, thank you. Did you notice that?
Speaker 2:That looks appropriately orange and not that burnt stuff that you guys talk about down here.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you for joining us for another episode of Sidewalk Conversations. I am delighted today to have my brother in town. He is actually here for the Clemson Texas bowl game and it was kind of a last minute deal. We just decided, okay, let's see if we can't make this happen. And then, once he committed, I said, oh, and, by the way, how about doing?
Speaker 2:an entrance fee that was not pre-disclosed?
Speaker 1:Yes, so I am delighted to introduce you to my brother, John Koch. John, thanks for being with us on the podcast today.
Speaker 2:Happy to be here.
Speaker 1:Really glad you came. We also have a sponsor for today's podcast. I want to tell you a little bit about Stone Stash Coffee. I have a good friend, mary and her husband, who have started this company here in Round Rock. They take pride in providing ethically sourced coffee beans, which they get when they're green and then they air roast them to make sure that they are completely roasted and done differently than in barrel roasting, and it's a great taste. And if you are here locally, they deliver in person. So check out Stone Stash Coffee. They deliver in person. So check out Stone Stash Coffee.
Speaker 1:We'll put the website down below in the notes and start your day with a fresh cup of Stone Stash. You'll be glad you did All right, john, I want to dive right in. I want to start by saying okay, you come from a family of pastors and people who are very ministry and then you decided you're going to be an engineer and I'm just curious like did you know that that was something that you were going to do from early on? How did you get into that career?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it seemed the pastoral space was pretty crowded. If I wanted to do something, I'll tell you what it wasn't. It wasn't a bolt of lightning. Right Like John, thou shalt be an engineer. I was no different than any other 17 or 18-year-old Not a clue. Not a clue what I wanted to do, not a clue what adult work was really like. The one thing I did know is that I seem to be pretty good at math, and I heard hey, you know, if you're good at math, engineering is something you should consider. I'll tell you a funny story, though. Just a week ago we had a high school student come to me and he had heard this story John's an engineer, he knows math, and he was struggling with this problem in calculus and his dad said well, you know, john's an engineer, he can help you. So he brings me this problem and it's something like there's a curve with an equation of blah, blah, blah. Now, at x equals 5, is the tangent line increasing or decreasing? I'm looking at the paper.
Speaker 1:I'm looking at the kid.
Speaker 2:I'm like dude, this is serious, let's pray. So apparently I used to be good at math, but it was enough to get me confident to go into engineering and dad had made it pretty clear when you're 18, the gravy train is over, so you better figure something out. So I went to school to be an engineer.
Speaker 1:Now, speaking of dad. He was an engineer and he definitely had an engineering mind. There were always things around the house that you know reflective of his engineering capacity. So blankets in the hallways to keep heat in a certain portion of the house, much to mom's chagrin of course, yes, yes, very aesthetically pleasing yeah. But I'm just curious. I don't think I've ever talked to you about this, but was dad's career choice influential for you? Did you guys talk about that at all?
Speaker 2:I'm sure he was influential. He had to be. The interesting thing is I never remember having that conversation with him. I don't ever remember him sitting down or pressuring, and I for sure I was a compliant kid, opposite from some of my older brothers, and so there was probably a sense of knowing that dad would really think it was cool if I went into engineering and we did love doing projects together, but I really felt intimidated by him.
Speaker 2:He knew everything about everything and I would say to this day I know he is a better technologist than I am.
Speaker 2:He just had such an amazing mind with those kinds of things.
Speaker 2:But you know, I got into it, I made my way, and one of the things that, um, that I remember about him is we were sitting at breakfast one day and, uh, he looks at me and he's like, yeah, I think you'd be perfect. I'm like, what are you talking about? It's like, well, I'm working on a project at work and, and, um, dad was a, uh, an engineer in the x-ray industry and he was working on a machine that would put people on a seat that was going to pivot and rotate so the doctor could get just the right angle. And, uh, he wanted to, um, try that out on a smaller frame person, and so, if somebody of my size and stature, he'd had different people of different sizes come in, and so I got to go with dad to the office and ride his x-ray machine, and so, whether he was really trying to be a good engineer and design just the right machine that took care of everybody, or it was part of his plot to suck me in.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure. Well, you were kind of his last hope. Yes, he did talk to suck me in. I'm not sure. Well, you were kind of his last hope. Yes, I still, he did talk to me about engineering, which.
Speaker 2:I was obviously learned after trying to influence all of you, he'd take a softer approach with me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was not going well for him so, but thankfully you came through, yes, okay. So, speaking about engineering, when you think about your role, I mean cause you've done it for a long time. You've been in engineering from like your high school days on, and even lived in New Zealand doing some things there and I'm just curious, as you look back on your career, what has been like the most enjoyable part of being an engineer?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think. Ultimately I find it a pure and fulfilling role. And so when you think about engineering, yeah, it's about math, it's about technology, but to be a good engineer, you have to be a problem solver. It's about technology, but to be a good engineer, you have to be a problem solver. And at a certain point in my career I learned that, even though a lot of us go into engineering because we like problems and we like machines and people are kind of difficult, at a certain point I realized it's always about people. It's always about understanding what people need and developing solutions that serve them. And so, whether you're designing a new machine, what do your customers need? What are they trying to do with this machine? And so there's a certain purity to it. You are really trying to engage and solve problems.
Speaker 2:And there's variety, right, like there's always a new problem. You know, I thought about roles where you're going in and you're doing the same kind of thing week after week. In engineering I had an opportunity just to apply myself to a lot of different problems and different industries and different solutions that were needed, and so I found it intellectually engaging. So, that, for sure, was the highlight and what I've continued to enjoy now for for 40 years in that, in that field, that's great.
Speaker 1:And the opposite question what's the most difficult part?
Speaker 2:Those dang people opposite question what's the most difficult part? Those dang people? No, I mean, I uh, you were kind enough to send me these these questions in advance. And then I did ponder it and, honestly, when I look back, the lowest points of my career, um, where where I got on the wrong side of an organization and when I say organization, that's maybe a self-defense way to say people, I got on the wrong side of people and I think for engineers, we do tend to see things as kind of black and white. There's better and worse, there's right and wrong ways to go after. And when I look back on my career the times that I dug in, you know, and I said, no, this is right and we have to do this I did so at the expense of people and people who had different opinions, and I didn't do it in as respectful a way as I should, and maybe I won a battle and, in the end, lost a war.
Speaker 2:And so those are hard lessons to learn. I still wonder some days if I've truly learned it, but it's the reality. You may see things in a different way, you may see things as right and wrong, but there are gray and there are people in between. And really making sure that you navigate that well and listen well, well, I would say that, as I've observed you over the years, I see the same in my son too.
Speaker 1:He's very much a math engineer, technology-oriented person, but he's also quite good with people and that combination is not always um common. You know, it's a rare combination actually, and and I've always thought that you were great with people, your humor and your capacity to uh kind of make light of the situation. So it surprises me a little bit to say. But again, you know, like you said, sometimes when you're in the the work a day world and you have a problem that you're trying to solve and you're thinking like I know the solution to this problem just listen to me
Speaker 2:that can be tough, yeah, and, and ultimately it comes down to pride, right, yeah, you, you get your yourself in there and you want to prove that you're right and yeah, usually backfired.
Speaker 1:The voice of experience. Okay, so now I want to shift gears a little bit, because there is another part of your life that you're also very involved with, which is your church, involved with which is your church. We are very blessed in that we have a family that is, by and large, very involved with church, takes our faith seriously, and so, even though you live in the workaday world of engineering, you're also an elder at your church. You and your wife teach a Sunday school class, and you even sub in and preach occasionally for your pastor when he's on vacation, and I have a couple questions related to that. The first is what is it like to marry those two parts of your world? Because on the surface it might look very different. Engineering is all about the facts, the figures, the technology, and church is much more, you might say, a soft science of learning how to communicate, express things in a way that's compelling and moving, and those two things don't always go together well. So I'm curious just how have you navigated that?
Speaker 2:Well, it's interesting and when I think back to what prompted me, what led me to be an elder, and, honestly, when I think about it and think about the experience and how I landed where I have today, you actually had a much bigger impact on that than you may appreciate and you grew up in a family. There's two pastors and, of course, as we grew in our careers, we would get together on reunions and I would see the impact of being a pastor on my brother right, like a real guy who puts on his pants one leg at a time.
Speaker 2:you know and the demands that you were under and I thought, man, I definitely took the easy road in being an engineer. I can't imagine a more difficult vocation where every day you've got a congregation full of Siskel and Eberts giving you you know, did all right today, but you know, hopefully all right today, but you know, hopefully next week will be better.
Speaker 2:And you know it's and the demands in terms of leadership and what people expect of you in that role. And at a certain point I saw the pastor at the church where Wendy and I attend just going through a really difficult time and at the time we didn't have elders, we didn't have those kinds of roles. But I just went to him one day and basically said I want to be your friend.
Speaker 2:I see the pressure that you're under and the challenges that you face, and if I can be a listening ear, if I can be a support, if I can be an encouragement to you, I'd love to be able to do that. And at the end of the day, I do think church at its best is a team sport. You know where anyone you know with a singular perspective trying to lead a congregation. It's hard and you need sounding boards and you need people who have your back and have an opportunity to talk through things and to share different perspectives.
Speaker 2:And you know you've met kent, yeah you know, he's very different from me, we have very different styles, um, but we complement each other well and, and so that's been an encouragement, and I think to him and for sure to me, when it comes to engineering and how that plays into it, I just think, ultimately it's the same, it's problem solving.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2:You come across challenges, and so you put that issue on the table and you pray together, you consider God's word, you try to figure out the best, best way to move forward, and and so I've enjoyed that um, that capacity, and I I love it that, that purest element of engineering being about serving people, and clearly that's what we do in the church to love God's people and to express his word and share with the world his love.
Speaker 2:And so big problems in our world. I only know of one answer, and so that's a big problem solving.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, one of the things I remember and you might want to pull your mic back up a little bit. It's kind of gotten down there, Got a little enthusiastic.
Speaker 1:He did. We're cheering. But I remember one of the things I enjoyed, especially later in life with dad, was that when I would talk to him about the issues that I was dealing with in the church, when I would talk to him about the issues that I was dealing with in the church, he would have such a unique perspective and I think it was a product of his problem-solving mind where he could look at a problem from a totally different standpoint than I did, and I would relish those calls because he would. I can't think of the number of times when, after a call, I would tell Carol I never thought about it that way.
Speaker 1:I never saw the problem through that lens and it was such a gift.
Speaker 1:So I am sure that you're providing that same for your pastor and I'm also curious from, because sometimes I'll sit around with people who are other ministers and other pastor types and we'll talk about what's happening in the church, and so it's also a great interest to me to talk to people who are active in the church but also kind of their regular assignment is to sit in the quote-unquote pew just to take in the experience and to be part of the experience obviously.
Speaker 1:But I'm curious, as a person who's not a professional what is your sense about what's happening in the church? Because sometimes when you look at statistics and you look at what's happening and it certainly seems that in the culture there is a decline of interest in the church. Attendance is going down in many, many churches and many denominations, people seemingly increasingly skeptical of leaders in the church. You hear about scandals left and right and as a result, I think that and this is true about many of the institutions in our culture that respect for the church, so to speak, has gone down and I'm curious what your opinion of that is. What do you see? How do you assess?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I do think it's an incredibly challenging time for the church in our culture today. And you know, when we grew up, church had a positive image in culture and society. It was the place where the do-gooders went right. Like it had a very positive connotation in culture.
Speaker 1:Like if you went into a job interview and said, yeah, I go to church, that was like oh, okay, a moral good person? Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and when you look in our world today, you know it has literally flipped 180 degrees. That in the view of this culture today, you know we and challenge what diversity and an inclusive culture looks like, and so that's a relatively short period of time. You know within our lifetimes that that has happened and I think the church has really struggled to find its voice in that new cultural norm. And I think there have been generally two responses. Either we as a church have said no, we want to do good, we want to be inclusive, and so we have tried to figure out how to love in that context, but in the process we've given up some things about our righteousness and about what God teaches about being righteous, and that has, in the end, resulted in a faith that's not really a faith anymore, and I think that's been challenging for some churches.
Speaker 2:And then, after you're in that for a while, you're like well, what is this about? Like, what do we stand for? This doesn't really feel any different than anything else, and are we really helping people? I think another piece of the church has gone sort of the other way and said well, no, like these things are critically important and we've treated people who have different thoughts, as now, they're the enemy, you know, they're our opposition and we've forgotten how to love. And Romans 3.23, you know, for we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and we've created these different classifications of sin Like.
Speaker 2:I'll sin on this and this, but at least I'm not sinning like that and so we've become judgmental and, in many ways, the very thing that the world would say and what culture would say about us, would say about us. And so I think, you know, the greatest challenge that we face today is refinding our voice in a way that expresses the absolute, amazing love of God, in a way that is true to his word and true to the holy God we serve. And finding that language, finding that voice with integrity and genuine love for people, I think has been a huge challenge. And I think that narrow strip between, that landing strip, between the two is so narrow.
Speaker 2:And I think we often veer to the left and right and we rely on our own wisdom and our own best thoughts, and I think God's got to move, you know, to move us to that, that right message and that, um, that love of people, and yeah, I I couldn't agree with you more.
Speaker 1:I I do feel like we have, uh, and I think part, maybe there's a third option. You only have the one extreme that's kind of gone, like who cares what people think of us, we are going to be the righteous few, and the other who's like, well, we have to be, you know, speaking to the culture, so we adopt the ways of the culture. You know, you have those two extremes and I think there's another, a third option, which is that people just give up on it, just to say you know, let's screw this, it's just not, it's trying, I'm going to do my own thing, I'll have maybe my small group of people that I relate to and engage with, but basically giving up on the quote-unquote institutional church, and I'm not sure that's the right answer either. I think the church probably looks different in the years to come and we need to be experimenting with different modes and models, which is not usually the church's strong suit experimenting and and and entrepreneuring. But I think I think we need to be proactive and and stay diligent on it, because the message is too important to give up on. It still changes lives and we have to figure out a way to do that.
Speaker 1:All right, changing focus again. Thank you for that. I really appreciate your perspective. You're also a family man. You have five kids I do and I think they are each amazing. I know that you and Wendy do too. You're great parents and when you look at your children and they're all doing well and they're all making their own unique mark on the world. All five of them are very different and they're doing their best, I'm sure. And I'm just curious, looking back on your parenting journey, what are some of the things that you have tried to do to communicate love and the gospel and the faith and all those things that good parents try and do for their kids? What have you found to be some of the keys in that journey?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, I think it always looks better from the outside looking in than maybe from the inside looking out, we're a normal family and I love my kids and they are all treasures to Wendy and I. But we certainly had our rocky roads going through life and a lot of trial and error and a lot of things. I think it would be far easier for me to write a book on things not to do as a parent than the things to do as a parent.
Speaker 2:But you know, if I try to take a big step back and say what are the things that I think we did well and I think we did love our kids well, whatever that looked like and loving I think in general comes pretty easy for Wendy and I it's the way we're wired and we had a genuine love for our kids that I think they maybe in the moment didn't always know and feel. But as a child growing up in our family, I know each one knows that they were genuinely loved and how we did that, I think, was just being present. You know that issue of time. You know we spent a lot of time with our kids and we in those seasons of life, you know well what do you do, what's your hobbies? My hobby is going to my kid's soccer game.
Speaker 1:What's a hobby?
Speaker 2:It becomes the focus of your life through those years when you're an active and young family and we really did try to just show up and spend time with our kids. I can remember sitting in a Donuts for Dad, muffins for Mom, donuts for Dad and I was with I think it was Mary with, I think it was Mary and we were sitting at the table and she was just telling me a story about school or something or friends, and I was just intent listening to her and at a certain point a teacher came over and said I've been watching you and your daughter and she is so blessed and I'm like I'm here for donuts and that Donuts are pretty good.
Speaker 1:Just you know you give her your full attention.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you're and fully vested in her and I think, um, that that has just typified our, our parenting and I, I think, the love for the long haul. Um, you've got to figure out how to forgive and you know we have five kids and have a great relationship with all five of them, but two of the five at one point left home with expletives that we probably wouldn't share in this podcast and some finger gestures that probably wouldn't make the editing cut either. They were hard, hard times.
Speaker 2:And you know, to this day I can't remember what it was about and I think one of my superpowers is being forgetful. I just I don't remember, you know, but truly forgiving and forgetting, and life is short and you move on and recognizing that they have, just as you see, others' situations and there's just such loss, such heartache, and so I think you know learning to forgive and to move on and really build positive relationships for the long haul.
Speaker 2:I think one of the things that I am still learning is how I show up for my kids. I would say one of the lessons that's the hardest. I heard it quite a while ago now and I still struggle with it, but it's so. We all tend to love our kids. The way that that is our strength is the that that we would choose to show up in situations, and I think the real challenge of being a parent is to show up in the moment, with the child in the situation, in the way that you need them to show up.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it will be, yeah, give them a hug. They need a hug, they need the encouragement. Sometimes it's just honesty, you know speaking the truth and being courageous enough to say. You know speaking the truth and being courageous enough to say you know, when you make that decision, this is what's going to happen and you're going to have to wear the consequences of that. And I tend to show up the way. That is my strength to show up, and I think I'm at my best as a parent when I take a bigger step back and say what do they need in this situation and how do I show up best to help them in this particular situation?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, one of the things I think we both benefited from all the kids in our family, because there were five of us in our immediate family too, and mom and dad, I think one of the things they did really well was to treat each one of us as individuals, you know they they had their particular principles and practices that I think were consistent across the board, but they were also really good at honing in on who we were as individuals and fanning the flame of whatever gifting or passion they saw in us.
Speaker 1:And I've watched you do the same with your kids because, the same as our kids, your kids are all very different, have different interests and different strengths and different opportunities that have been presented. And it seems to me, at least looking from afar, where you were able to provide the context for them to flourish as whoever they are, you know, giving them the benefit of your experience and your wisdom, but then also giving them permission to both succeed in the ways they needed to succeed and then, if it meant failure to, you know, not intervene too quickly but to let them feel the consequences of choices.
Speaker 1:And that's always a very difficult road to manage when you're a parent. But I feel like just you guys have done super well with that and I think your kids are a product, a good product, of all that. So kudos.
Speaker 2:The real secret is just marry up.
Speaker 1:You did that too. I did that too. I did that too, I did as well. Uh, speaking of which, I want to end our conversation today talking a little bit about, uh, your wife wendy. Um, she was actually I just thought of this today.
Speaker 1:She was in season one. She was on the podcast when it was mobile. So I think we had a conversation at your home. We set up a little camera and lights and had a conversation with her, and this was early on in the challenge that she was facing with her spine curvature of her spine. She was facing with her spine curvature of her spine and she was just beginning to receive some treatments around that.
Speaker 1:And in the years since then, things have gotten a little bit more challenging. She's now pretty much full time in a wheelchair and she's still quite active. She's helping me edit a book right now. So she is far from giving up on life. But I'm sure that it's presented a unique set of challenges for you in this season of your life. And I'm just curious, you know, first of all, how are you guys doing and how have you been navigating this complexity? Because, certainly, with Carol and our my journey with cancer, you know, I see a lot of parallels in terms of you know that that really throws a wrench into the system and it takes different skillset to to navigate some of that. So I know it's a tender topic, but I'm I'm curious if you'd be free to share a little bit about that journey, you know, I was most excited about this question.
Speaker 2:And I think part of the challenge is exactly where you ended. You know the other topics we've talked about. It's sort of the retrospective right, and so you're kind of looking back. When we talk about this topic, it's obviously in the here and now and still so much learning and certainly don't feel like we're in any position to share wisdom on how to navigate these waters. It's very raw, it's very real, it's very everyday, and when you ask you know, what are the things that help you in this path?
Speaker 2:And I was talking to Wendy, obviously, and talking to her this morning on the ride, whatever time. It was two in the morning when I was going to the airport and I said I don't know how I'm going to answer this question with Pete, and I said something to her and I said I don't know how I'm going to answer this question with Pete, and I said something to her and I said I think I'm going to use that, and so I am going to use that. You know what helps us on the journey? It's everything and it's nothing. And what do I mean by the everything?
Speaker 2:It's a day-to-day battle, and so sometimes it's that quiet time that you've had where God just is so clear and so reminding of you, of his love in this particular place. It can be the encouragement from a friend, it could be the recognition that you know, everybody is disabled in some capacity. It's just with, with Wendy, and where, where we are as a couple, it's very obvious. You see us on the roadside. You know exactly what we're, what we're dealing with and what's hard, but everybody um has their disabilities and their challenges that they face.
Speaker 2:It's a. It's a book that a friend gives of somebody who's, uh, dealt with something similar and has navigated. It's realizing that nobody chooses this, nobody thinks they'll be in this position. Who grows up thinking, well, that'll be me one day, that'll be me in a wheelchair. And nobody plans this, nobody expects this. Everybody who's in that situation is having to deal and having to make their way through a life that they didn't plan and that they didn't think was fair. And so you process all of these things all the time.
Speaker 1:Sometimes you'll get a pocket prayer when you thank you, that's exactly the word I needed and so it's.
Speaker 2:It's all of those things and I say nothing because you know it's a. It's literally a battle that doesn't end and every day is a new battle. And Wendy's situation is progressive and so as she deals with pain and lack of mobility, you know there's sort of the constancy of every day is a new day.
Speaker 2:And you don't know exactly what it's going to bring. And so there's there's sort of that constancy that you know, you, you recognize we're probably never going to lick this in the way that you would think about licking and problem solving other things.
Speaker 2:Dang, it's fixed like I figured it out, we got to the right doctor, we got this sorted out. It's now fixed and so there's a certain constancy to it. And I think for wendy uh, the hardship is that when she meets people today they only know her as that lady in a wheelchair. And so you know to to know her, to know her whole journey and to be able to say I see you, I know who you were and I know who you are, and to encourage her in that. You know, we knew it would go there, but she's the most courageous person I know.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh she fights every day and keeps a positive attitude. And that blessing when you think about what gets you through her ability to be courageous and to show up every day and to fight the fight that she has. It's an amazing blessing in getting through and her biggest gift back to me in terms of number of times that she picks me up.
Speaker 2:You're the quote-unquote caretaker and she cares for me because she loves me she recognizes that it impacts both of us, and she shows up with courage every day to live the best life that she can and not to let it overwhelm her.
Speaker 1:And so it's that it's day I apologize for the emotions, but it's the reality of who I am.
Speaker 2:It's my birth defect and overactive emotional gland.
Speaker 1:I don't know what it is, but know when I see her, you know, on our reunions, and now I'm relating to her a little more often because of the book that we're working on together. She is one of the most courageous people I know, and the fact that she's able to press past her limitations and continue to see life as something worth living, not giving up. She volunteers at that clothing store sorting things out I mean it's just like who is this person? If there's a person that reflects the love of Christ and the tenacity of living life to whatever full extent you can, she is that. And I totally, totally respect her for it.
Speaker 2:One of the things that happens when you deal with something like this, and it's as obvious. And when you deal with something like this, and it's as obvious. You know, we have obviously faith-filled folks who will come, and you know, it can happen at a restaurant, it can happen anywhere, and they want to pray for Wendy. And they'll ask you know, hey, can I pray for you? And saying no doesn't seem like a very good answer, so of, course you say yes, of course.
Speaker 2:And just as full of faith and as much love as they can conjure up, they pray for her and tell her you're going to walk again. I just know it. You have to have faith and over time that gets harder and harder to hear.
Speaker 2:And do. I believe that God could cause Wendy to walk again, Absolutely with every fiber of my being, but he has not chosen to and I don't think he's given us a lot of reason to hope that he will heal her in that way, and so part of what I internalize and what has helped her in me is to recognize oh yeah, she will walk again. It may not be on this side. I have this image of challenging her to a race on the other side in heaven and having her blow my doors off and just running with glee.
Speaker 1:That's the hope. Yeah, yeah, you know I've been reflecting a bit on a book I read a long time ago. It was actually one of the first. Like I was not a reader in high school, it was a challenge to move into any kind of academic rigor in college, and one of the first books I ran across was the book by M Scott Peck, the Road Less Traveled.
Speaker 1:And in the first chapter of that book in fact it's the first sentence of the first chapter he writes life is difficult. It's one of the great truths of life, because once you accept that life is difficult, it no longer is, because it's what you've come to understand about the nature of life, which you know. I, on one hand, I love that statement. On the other hand, I I resent it because I wish it weren't as difficult as it is.
Speaker 1:Um, but there's some truth there that when, when you because I think one of the things that makes it hard for all of us, no matter where we are, is if we have this expectation that life is going to be easier or that we deserve more why aren't you intervening in a different way?
Speaker 1:Oh God, then you're not only dealing with whatever physical challenge or emotional challenge you're dealing with, but then you're also dealing with the expectation that's been dashed, and then you're wrestling with God about that. So, if we can get to a place where we're like, okay, lord, please help me manage the difficulty of my life, that the suffering will have some redemptive purpose, I want to hold on until the other side and then I'll be able to celebrate all the goodness that I know is waiting for me there. That helps, that helps. Well, you guys have been heroic, and thank you, john, for taking some time in the midst of your quote unquote vacation and spending some time with us here on the podcast. I'm so grateful and thank you for joining us. We'll see you again in a few weeks and, yeah, have a blessed holiday season.
