Sidewalk Conversations
"Let the one who thinks he stands, take heed lest he fall..." (1 Corinthians 10:12)
Standing strong and remaining true to your calling is no easy task. No one sets out to crash and burn. In fact, it's actually the opposite, most people want to stand strong, remain effective, and be true to their values all the way through to the end. But, it is really hard to do.
In these interviews, Piet Van Waarde (a 40 year veteran of pastoral ministry) has heart-to-heart conversations with ordinary people about what it takes to stay faithful and effective in the things that matter most.
Sidewalk Conversations
**SPECIAL** The Genius of the "AND" with Shaina Zavala | Part 1
**Join us for a special summer series of conversations with Shaina and Piet about the genius of the "and." We are so excited to share this 4-part discussion with you AND for the launch of season 4 of Sidewalk Conversations this August! If you enjoy this episode and want to check out all of the things Piet is working on, head on over to the Piet Van Waarde channel on Youtube.**
Today, we discuss the transformative power of using "and" instead of "or" when processing life's complexities and how embracing multiple truths simultaneously can radically change your perspective and emotional wellbeing.
• Most people lack strong tools and coping skills to navigate everyday challenges
• Society reinforces binary thinking (this OR that) when most situations are actually nuanced
• Using "and" expands your opportunity scale and opens up more possibilities
• You can receive a devastating medical diagnosis AND hold hope for the future
• The discomfort of holding contradictory truths is why many avoid this approach
• Processing family dysfunction requires acknowledging both love AND hurt
• Religious communities sometimes discourage honest processing in the name of honor
• Health and fitness shouldn't be diet OR exercise but diet AND exercise
• Well-meaning phrases like "at least she's healthy" invalidate complex emotions
• Allowing space for grief AND joy simultaneously leads to more authentic healing
Man I am so excited about today my good friend Shana, who I have not seen for a year.
Shaina Zavala:Way too long.
Piet Van Waarde:Has graciously decided that she would like to be filmed.
Shaina Zavala:I don't know if that's an accurate way of putting that, but I'm so excited to have a conversation with you because you're the best.
Piet Van Waarde:I'm excited to have it with you. And so, before we got on the air, we were talking about like, well, what should we talk about? We have so many things, and you came up with this suggestion and I've now been thinking about it for several days and I love the conversation, and so I'll set it up this way and then feel free to interject. So most of the things that we're experiencing in the world today, it doesn't matter what you're talking about, it doesn't matter if it's religion, politics, relationships, you know, just whatever is happening in the world.
Piet Van Waarde:There seems to be this way of thinking that is, either it's this or it's this, and either or mindset. And one of the things that you suggested is, like, one of the things you're talking about with people is hey, can we not talk about the genius of the end? Yeah, like, could it be that there are two things that are true at the same time, things that may even seem contradictory? So I'd like you to kind of play it out in some some of the ways that you've been talking to people about.
Shaina Zavala:Yeah, so I feel like the number one thing is you know I, you know me, I call it counseling in the wild, um, but as I'm kind of talking, that's what it feels like the trenches sometimes, but as I'm kind of talking to people and helping them navigate just different things I'm not even talking about like major traumas cause that's its own thing but just like the everyday things that happen in life to everybody, I'm realizing that the average person out there does not have, in my opinion, you know, really strong tools and resources and coping skills to be able to just navigate the stuff that happens around them. And one of the I would say probably the top thing that I'm seeing is people feel like it's always a this or that choice. Right, we live in the or, and I also think like our society reinforces that. So you, you like dogs or you like cats, like, right, you know you're the cat lady, you're the dog person, but you're not both. You know, and the reality is that almost everything in life is gray, it's nuanced, it's almost never black and white.
Shaina Zavala:And I I feel really passionate that if people can learn how to use literally the word and and find the genius in that, that it will radically change your life, and I think like that's a bold claim to say radical, but I I mean it because I think if people can grasp how to use, and that it will help them reframe and reshape the way they process things, the way that they bounce back from things, and so I mean literally, like you said, like you can we'll use you for an example you can get a medical diagnosis that is devastating and hope can be on the horizon.
Shaina Zavala:Those things don't feel like they go together, but they can be true, and it doesn't always have to be in a negative way. It can also be. You know people you can be content and happy with where you are in life. You can say you know, I like this job, it pays all my bills, my bills, and I want more for my future and I want to go back to school. Multiple things can be true at the same time, and so I just my hope is that people will walk away and be like, oh, it doesn't have to be this or that, there's another option.
Piet Van Waarde:And one of the things I love about it and it's been something I've been thinking about is because it opens up the opportunity scale. So, like a lot of times, if you're thinking in either or it means that your perspective is about this big, it's like I either got to do this or I got to do this. But if you can add the and it's like, oh, wait a minute, there are way more possibilities for me than I thought initially possible. So I love the idea of using and in any number of places. So let me just kind of play off what you just said regarding health and fitness.
Piet Van Waarde:So, in this journey that I've been on, there are all these people who talk about everything boils down to diet yeah, you got to eat these things, you can't eat other things you got to worry about to diet. Yeah, you got to eat these things, you can't eat other things. You got to worry about your diet. And then there are other people who say, well, no, it's really about your exercise, your lifestyle, paying attention to what your doctor says, and it's like well, why does it have to be an either? Or why can't we just say you know what it's about diet and exercise, and the two really work together and I think there's something about like creating this very narrow thing that gains, clicks. It gains, likes it creates conflict. But I think the real like you were talking about how it works in the real world is you got to do both.
Shaina Zavala:Yeah.
Piet Van Waarde:And there's so many ways in which that's applicable.
Shaina Zavala:Yeah, or think about all these like fad diets that are going around right now. Right, you know it's or um 75 hard or anything, and I'm not knocking any of those things if you do them, Um, but it's this extreme. I don't want to upset anyone, I'm joking, Um, but it's this extreme thing that you're doing in this extreme way and it's this or your or failure. You know, that's kind of the mindset you have when you go into it and, again, that's not sustainable, it's not realistic. And so, again, helping people to be able to understand, like and I think something you just said can do this, that's just like, I don't know. It feels like it gives me almost like a cool, calm and collected, Like I don't have to accept. Imagine being in like a business negotiation and they give you something and you're like accept it, decline it, negotiate it Like.
Piet Van Waarde:you know what I?
Shaina Zavala:mean Like you, just it gives you a power. There's power in that.
Piet Van Waarde:Right, I love that. Well, let's use a couple of examples. So where, like when you were thinking about this initially were, were there some things specifically where you're like counseling in the wild, where you're talking to people and you're like, no, it doesn't have to be an either or it's an end? Did you have like some specific things in mind where you did that? How much time do you have?
Shaina Zavala:No, yes, absolutely, and I think for me, um, the the first one that comes to mind is there are a lot of people everybody has, you know, family dysfunction is a big one and I am a I call a chaos kid. I come from extreme dysfunction in the family and so when I'm helping people and we're talking about those things, the understanding that multiple things can be true. So I'll give you an example I love my parents. My parents did the best they could and they failed me. Being able to sit in that and being able to process that and feel the feels and feel validated in that, that has helped me be able to have a better, stronger, real relationship with my parents and we've walked through it and all of these things.
Shaina Zavala:But if there's so many people out there that they grew up with, you know, teen parents or alcoholic parents, or you know parents that were addicts of some sort, a lot of the time our society, like that, gets diminished and so they don't ever get to process that because they're like, well, I can't hold them to that path, what they did in the past, or well, I love them. Or my mom, you know, is one of my favorite people and I love her, you know, and so they don't feel like they can actually feel those feelings, and so I think maybe in the Christian sorry to starting, but I think in the Christian community particularly like that example.
Piet Van Waarde:It's like the scripture gets thrown out honor your father and mother, right. So at that point you feel like, well, I have to be kind and gracious, no matter what they were, and I have to kind of deny the fact that they were imperfect and in some cases even cruel. I can't talk about that because I was supposed to honor yes.
Shaina Zavala:Or because I'm, or even just the most basic, because I'm Christian now and I can't. I need to let go of it, and you would be so surprised sometimes, in the name of trying to speak wisdom, the amount of dumb stuff that comes out of people's mouths.
Shaina Zavala:I'm just like I don't think you meant that the way that you said that, but that's not helpful. You know what I mean and so, yeah, just being able to say that still happened and there's still feelings, you know, attached to that. And then you know, you know this in in your line of work and as many conversations and people that you talk to and mentor and support, a lot of people are adults and they're just now starting to process any kind of things that happened when they were younger and so and how it affects them today. You know, and so you're not. It's not like we definitely should be having these conversations with our teens and our youth and all kinds of stuff, but most of the time it's adults. They're just now saying like, hey, I actually like, looking back, that was not OK. But then they go and they talk to someone and says like oh, I mean it happened 20 years ago, like why are you making it a big deal? And that, like, both things can be true.
Piet Van Waarde:You know another example I um let me can I just build on that too, because I think that one of the reasons why it's so important is because that's what's true, right. So to to kind of sugarcoat it and say well, that's not really that big a deal, it happened a long, long time ago. That is going to mean that you're going to perpetuate all the coping mechanisms that may have served you well growing up, but they're not going to serve you well in your adulthood, and so facing the truth about what you experienced actually sets you up for success, and that goes back to what you were saying. It all boils down to saying this was how it was and I can still love them. Yeah, the only way you're going to get to the truth is if you're able to say both yes and that it's so necessary.
Shaina Zavala:And what's really interesting about it is that that's an uncomfortable place. It's uncomfortable for you, like the person doing it, and it's uncomfortable for everybody around you and it's. I think that's probably why we avoid it.
Shaina Zavala:Right, right and it's, I think that's probably why we avoid it, right, right, and I think, and also we're not wired that way. Naturally, our default programming is to just want is two choices, and so you know, it's something that, like I said, it gets really. You can say this all day by yourself, but it's when you bring other people in, and so that's when it usually things get shut down. Another example that comes to mind is kind of sometimes like we talked about in like the medical sense For me, I had story my daughter really early and I was so excited that she was here, I was so excited to be a mom.
Shaina Zavala:You know, she was alive. We made it through it. We had a lot of complications. I loved that I was in there and I was devastated at the circumstances in which it happened and the amount of people that were like, well, at least she's blah, blah, blah. Well, you know, just focus on, and I'm like I am grieving the loss of something major. And so, again, I think, allowing people to be able to say and recognize and recognizing for other people and validating like that's true, that is true and this is true.
Piet Van Waarde:You know what? I think we're going to talk about this medical piece more, so let's do that in our next episode.
