Sidewalk Conversations
"Let the one who thinks he stands, take heed lest he fall..." (1 Corinthians 10:12)
Standing strong and remaining true to your calling is no easy task. No one sets out to crash and burn. In fact, it's actually the opposite, most people want to stand strong, remain effective, and be true to their values all the way through to the end. But, it is really hard to do.
In these interviews, Piet Van Waarde (a 40 year veteran of pastoral ministry) has heart-to-heart conversations with ordinary people about what it takes to stay faithful and effective in the things that matter most.
Sidewalk Conversations
**SPECIAL** The Genius of the "AND" with Shaina Zavala | Part 4
**Join us for the conclusion of our summer series of conversations with Shaina and Piet about the genius of the "and." We have enjoyed sharing this 4-part discussion with you AND getting ready for the launch of season 4 of Sidewalk Conversations in just a few weeks! If you enjoy these episodes and want to check out all of the things Piet is working on, head on over to the Piet Van Waarde channel on Youtube.**
Today, we explore the tension in church services between reaching believers and non-believers, discussing how the "power of AND" creates inclusive experiences that meet everyone where they are on their spiritual journey.
• Challenging the false dichotomy that forces church leaders to choose between ministering to Christians or reaching newcomers
• Using secular music and pop culture references to illustrate gospel truths while maintaining theological integrity
• Examining the Moana song "I've crossed the horizon to find you" as a powerful metaphor for Jesus's love
• Considering whether it's acceptable to occasionally alienate the "99" to effectively reach the "1" who is seeking
• Designing messages that start with the questions of the unconvinced while addressing deeper issues believers might not have resolved
• Recognizing how Jesus himself embodied the "AND" throughout his ministry and even on the cross
• Implementing the power of "AND" in daily life to improve mental health and create healthier perspectives
Start incorporating the genius of the word "AND" in your vocabulary today and see how it transforms your approach to faith, leadership, and everyday challenges.
So I have loved this conversation, but now I want to talk about a world that both of us are quite familiar with, and that is the world of church life, and particularly as it relates to the mission, the vision, the emphasis that comes in the life of a church.
Piet Van Waarde:So for those, let's say, who are active in ministry or church life, or Christians, and they look at church services and they're like, how do they get that figured out? One of the tensions that is often very much a part of this whole experience is like when you're planning a service so both of us have had experience on church staffs and part of planning services is there's this tension between are we speaking to people who are not yet convinced that this is the truth, like they just show up at church, maybe they're in a life crisis and not really sure if they believe or are we speaking to people who are already convinced, that are trying to figure out how to grow in their faith? And a lot of the conversation that happens in church world is that you have to pick again either or. And I'm curious, as you were involved and I'll talk a little bit about my experience too how did you bring it to the end?
Shaina Zavala:That's a great question. It's funny that you should bring that up because we had these really extensive creative meetings. They would last all day and we have a bunch of people with different backgrounds. So you've got like your you know person who's super evangelical. You've got almost like you know this, like authoritative person. You know all these different personalities and one of the things for me is again, I think, just due to who I am as a person and just my mindset, I live in the and right, so like we're going to hit these people and we're going to hit these people and I think of like the big services, like Easter, christmas, where you know you're going to get this influx.
Shaina Zavala:And one of the fights that we would always have was overpicking music selections and you know some people a lot of people may not agree with this, but I was always a really big fan of taking, sometimes you know, the secular music or music that was really popular for people that they not I don't want to say trending, you know, but just music that was relevant to the time or situations or things that are familiar, and taking that and using that to kind of illustrate the gospel and using that so that people could feel something familiar with something that maybe they didn't know, and that was something that was always an attention point of you can't do that, you can't mix secular and this. You can't do those things, and I'm like you. Can, you know, with the power of the and, and we can use that to be able to minister to people who are on different parts of the Christian journey, and so how would you sorry?
Piet Van Waarde:so how would you deal with the critique of those that would say, oh, but you can't mix the sacred and secular. It's like this is a sacred place, you're kind of infiltrating with the secular, that's just. That's irreverent.
Shaina Zavala:That's not allowed. That brings me to our next one, which is the power of why no, no, but first. First, you just say like, well, why not? You know, but at the most base level you know, I really tried to we would go line by line for the lyrics. We would go line by line, figure out you know why. How does this apply? How can this be used? Is there any part of this that you know? I'm not a fan of it. It makes me cringe when people change lyrics. I hate that. Um, so either the whole song works or it doesn't. But you know we would go through, we'd find scriptures that supported the different things. Um, I'll never forget, we did a project where we used, uh, the, we did the at the movies.
Shaina Zavala:You know what I mean. It was like a big thing in the summer and you kind of play clips of a movie and we did the movie Moana, and there's a part of the movie where she says she's talking to another character, but the song she sings says I've crossed the horizon to find you. I know your name, and so when I did the pitch or something like that, even though there were people on my own team that were like you cannot do this. Fire and brimstone, you can't do it. And I'm like who do you know who says that?
Shaina Zavala:And there's someone who's going to come in, or there's someone who's already on the journey, who they're going to be. Like that's my Jesus, right there. You know what I mean. So using something like that, that's a great, tangible example of the. And A person who was farther along on the journey was like that's the Jesus I know, the Jesus who will cross the horizon for me, the Jesus who knows every single person's name in this room. So that person, we're hitting that need. But then there's also somebody coming in who's like I've seen this movie. That's a billion dollar movie box offices across the world. It's familiar, it's safe, I'm going to come in. I never thought to see it that way and now I have a better understanding of how deep and how far and how much Jesus loves me.
Piet Van Waarde:You know, and I think that there's something to be said too, and this was something that we kind of had to circle back. So this was before I came and worked at the same church that you did. So when we were doing these kinds of conversations, one of the questions we would ask is is it okay to offend someone in this and if so, who Right? So, like, when you think about the whole idea of Jesus leaving the 99 and going after the lost one, you could almost interpret that to say Jesus was willing to offend the 99 in order to reach the one. And so you know what are the practical implications of that in a service, like, is it OK for me to create something with art that is edgy and not necessarily going to speak meaningfully to a person who's fully devoted? In fact, I may even alienate them, but is it okay to alienate them for the sake of the one that's there that doesn't know?
Shaina Zavala:And I mean that is probably a question that could be raised till the end of time, right? Nobody knows. If someone had the answer to that, right, we wouldn't be talking about this. But yeah, I think that goes, that goes to, but again, what?
Shaina Zavala:What my main takeaway is this is that if regular, everyday people were walking around and they're thinking of, and I can go to church and get what I need, and somebody who doesn't know Jesus like I know him is going to be here, right, like if we could get again. I want to encourage my friends and my family and strangers If we just started walking around. I think that would increase a level of compassion. I think it would increase a level of just awareness for your neighbors and the people around you. And why would I be offended that somebody else might need that? That's just like an absurd thing to think about. And I think a lot of people specifically in the church setting they're some of the most offended people and it's like, okay, you didn't get something from that, but you might take away something else.
Shaina Zavala:And what I love, I have seen a lot of really modern day preachers, but a lot of preachers really good preachers. They'll say you know not everything in this message is for you, and sometimes they'll kind of say that at the beginning. I think I've even heard you say that before. It's just like you're going to take away people, are going to take away different nuggets, and I think that's how, as leaders, we approach. The end is that you should be, in my opinion, you should be designing your message knowing that you have a diverse audience. You should be designing the examples that you use, the illustrations that you use. You should be thinking of every aspect, the diversity in your audience, the ages, stages, seasons, all of those things, and you should be including that when you're designing your services.
Piet Van Waarde:And I think that's again going back to the basic thing that we've been talking about all along. The genius of the end is that you can take all of that into account when you are planning a service or you're planning a marketing strategy or anything that we're talking about university setting. We want to be able to say let's think through the genius of the end in all of these ways, because it gives us an opportunity to reach more people.
Shaina Zavala:Yeah, like how did you utilize that when you were putting together messages, or did you even?
Piet Van Waarde:Yeah, yeah. So I would say that the key for me was to start with the person who was probably least convinced, and what I found was that when I would start that way, there were already some people who would probably categorize themselves as convinced that didn't know why they were believing what they were believing, and so when I was starting that way, they thought, oh, this is for them, and then all of a sudden halfway through they're like, hey, that was a question I had too, and so I think sometimes it's about like the biggest question I think most believers have and I know this is for probably another conversation, but I think most people have the question what does faith look like lived out in my everyday life?
Piet Van Waarde:So I can hold to certain values, certain ideas, but I need to know how is that going to relate and affect my daily life? And I think, if that's where you live, in whatever part of the service you're talking about music, drama, readings, message that is going to help people regardless of where they are. And again, I think that's part of like thinking through how can I include everybody in this?
Shaina Zavala:talk. Yeah, I'm utterly convinced that Jesus lived in the end Like this, woman is a possible prostitute and I love her. You know what I mean. Like these people believe you know the Pharisees, I believe you know. Maybe they believe that they're doing what's right and I'm going to flip this table.
Piet Van Waarde:Do you know what I mean? Well, and even on the cross, when you think about it, these people that killed him, he did not take an either or position on the cross. When you think about it, these people that killed him, he did not take an either or position on the cross either. He said forgive them, for they do not know. Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.
Shaina Zavala:If that's not an and I don't know what is. And so, again, going back to the initial question and the whole point of this entire conversation, we're on like part five now or so, but the whole point of this is that if everyday people can walk out of this and say I'm going to start to apply the and step one in my faith right, I can be in a really bad place and I can believe that God is not done with my story. As a leader, I can structure this service for these people and these people you know, and I think that that'll just start trickling into your regular life and I think we're going to have happier, healthier, stronger, you know, capable adults that are not having mental health crises all the time, if they can just start implementing this one small thing. But there's so much power and just the genius of literally the word and in your vocabulary.
Piet Van Waarde:I love it. Let's end there.
