Sidewalk Conversations
"Let the one who thinks he stands, take heed lest he fall..." (1 Corinthians 10:12)
Standing strong and remaining true to your calling is no easy task. No one sets out to crash and burn. In fact, it's actually the opposite, most people want to stand strong, remain effective, and be true to their values all the way through to the end. But, it is really hard to do.
In these interviews, Piet Van Waarde (a 40 year veteran of pastoral ministry) has heart-to-heart conversations with ordinary people about what it takes to stay faithful and effective in the things that matter most.
Sidewalk Conversations
Beyond Survival: The Transformation of Pain with Marsha Andre
Marsha Andre shares her powerful journey through a terminal cancer diagnosis at age 23, revealing how facing mortality transformed her understanding of life, faith, and purpose.
• Diagnosed with late-stage non-Hodgkin's lymphoma at 23, shortly after college graduation
• Underwent experimental bone marrow transplant treatment described as "standing a mile away from Chernobyl"
• Faced the devastating news she would never have children as a side effect of treatment
• Faith during treatment often consisted of simple one-word prayers: "Help"
• Found herself unable to imagine a future more than a few days ahead during recovery
• Cancer experience led her to pursue counseling as a profession to help others through trauma
• Uses her experience to validate clients' pain and create authentic connections
• Describes fear as a "death grip" that can be managed by intentionally focusing elsewhere
• Believes there are no shortcuts through pain – only going through it with compassion
• Cancer gave her the "superpower" of seeing life differently and embracing opportunities
If you've been touched by cancer or are supporting someone through their journey, we offer a free course called "Building Your Resistance Against Cancer." Reach out to us privately for more information.
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Welcome to another Sidewalk Conversations. I'm so glad that you've joined us. I am thrilled to be able to introduce my guest to you today. I have known our guest for many years we were counting earlier, I think it's like 45 some odd years that I've known these people and I am excited about letting you in on our relationship as well. But before I do, I just want to make a little comment and set up our conversation in this way.
Piet Van Waarde:Many of you who've been following the podcast know that I have had a cancer diagnosis for the last six years, and part of the question I've been asking in this period of time is not only Lord, would you help me get better, but how do you want to redeem the journey? So I had this sense very early on that there was a way in which God would take this pastoral gifting and calling that he's given me alongside my cancer diagnosis and then provide opportunities for me to serve cancer families and the warriors themselves who are working through this often terrible and frustrating disease working through this often terrible and frustrating disease. And so when I had that kind of revelation, if you will, one of the things that I determined was that I would use whatever platforms I'm given to provide hope and help for people who find themselves in that same position. So not all our programs are revolving around cancer, but today's is, and it is a story of a person that has been an inspiration to me, particularly after I got my own diagnosis, because I remember looking back at her story and her journey and finding a lot of hope and help there, and so I'm very excited about introducing her to you, and I think you will appreciate her story as much as I have.
Piet Van Waarde:As we start, I'd like to first of all give a recognition to our sponsor today. I want to say thank you to my daughter, who happens to be the entrepreneur behind Amasuk. Amasuk is a company that sources ethically the handbags and other works of artisans from Mexico, japan, morocco, and she's opening up new lines all the time, and so if you are now even thinking about like, what do I need to get my wife or my mom for Christmas, now's the time to begin shopping, and you can find some really great deals and great handiwork on her site that's amasukcom, where you can find all kinds of handbags, belts and other kinds of accessories that will serve you well and for those you love. So check that out. Thank you, mallory, for your sponsorship of this program. I now want to turn my attention to my dear friend, marsha Andre.
Marsha Andre:Thank you for joining me today. I feel so honored to be here that you invited me to share this part of my life.
Piet Van Waarde:I do think that you are probably the guest that's traveled the furthest to be on the podcast. I kind of threw it out as an idea last time we were together, I think on our trip to Florida we get together with some old friends and I kind of jokingly said hey, would you ever come do my? Oh yeah.
Marsha Andre:I'll come and do it. Of course we will.
Piet Van Waarde:Come and do it.
Marsha Andre:Yes, yes, I'm up for accepting any adventure there might be ahead of me.
Piet Van Waarde:Well, we met in college and your husband, who we'll be introducing next week, was the best man at my wedding. So we go way back and we've been close friends ever since.
Marsha Andre:And we kind of started dating at your wedding. That was the day that we-.
Piet Van Waarde:I did not know that.
Marsha Andre:Yes, I remember the moment. We were kind of-.
Piet Van Waarde:You got starstruck, didn't you?
Marsha Andre:There was a moment at your wedding that kind of started our own journey together. I love that Well.
Piet Van Waarde:I'm going to have to ask him about that in our podcast.
Marsha Andre:All right, maybe you will.
Piet Van Waarde:All right, all right, but I want to bring focus to your own healing journey, which started way back not long after we met each other in college. We had a small group together and we did some of our vacations together. And I still remember that on one of those vacation trips that we did in California, there was a moment, I think we were at a restaurant or something, and your husband touched your neck and felt a lump.
Marsha Andre:Felt a lump. I was 22, 23, great shape, healthy. Yeah, we had graduated from college and had just journeyed up to New England where we didn't know anybody. So we're grateful for our gatherings of community, and it was at that trip. Yesterday found a lump.
Piet Van Waarde:And then you got a diagnosis, not shortly thereafter.
Marsha Andre:We got back and quickly got in to a doctor who said oh, you know, you've got non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. Let's just do a little bit of treatment here and off you go. Oh, actually he thought it was Hodgkin's. We ended up getting into one of the major hospitals in Boston, at which point and of course I think we may all remember the moments that we're told yeah um.
Marsha Andre:Life stands still and you're told that, oh no, this is cancer and this is not a good cancer, oh my gosh right, right, right yet beginning of my life, the beginning of my wide-eyed anticipation of all that was ahead yeah and life stopped. And every time we went, you know, we were getting worse and worse. News that it was in the last stage of development, that there was no cure, that, you know, there was not a lot of success in terms of longevity. And so at that moment, I'm 23 and thinking this is the end.
Piet Van Waarde:This is the end. This is the end. And then did you? You?
Marsha Andre:went into treatment right, Went into treatment. We were able to get into experimental treatment where someone mentioned it's a shot at a cure, and at that the language was cure rates, like we have a two-year cure rate. And so I remember, just in fear and trepidation, calling the oncologist and saying you said, cure Like, do you think does that mean cure? Cure Like, really Like forever cure. And he said yes, and I just remember, again, another life stops. And so again, this experimental treatment was a shot at trying to give me a life.
Piet Van Waarde:You know, Experimental treatment was a shot at trying to give me a life. Wow, you know small percentage of hope. How long did the treatment last?
Marsha Andre:before, you kind of felt like you were kind of in the clear. Well, one more part I should share of that story is the next time that we went in they said oh, by the way, you won't be able to have children. So that was just almost. It's a big deal, but almost an incidental view. It's almost not as relevant when you're fighting for a shot at life. Yeah for sure. But looking back again, it's one of those things that changes your life forever. Yeah, but went into an experimental bone marrow transplant protocol where I knew that they were going to. Part of it was they're going to try to do everything they possibly can, hit it with the biggest sledgehammer they can. They said you've stood a mile away from Chernobyl, so we're going to just hit it with everything we got. Wow, yeah, wow.
Piet Van Waarde:But that was like a long time ago, and here you are, here I am here, I am.
Marsha Andre:You know. There were churches at that time that just committed to 24-hour prayer vigils for three months.
Piet Van Waarde:Wow Because.
Marsha Andre:I do think because I was 23,. You know, it's such an out-of-season experience. So I remember my thinking in the beginning being all right, you know, I'm going to take all this energy and grit that I have and I'm just going to, we're going to hit it, I'm going to make it through, I'm just going to push and I'm going to take all this energy and grit that I have and we're going to hit it, I'm going to make it through, I'm just going to push and I'm going to survive.
Marsha Andre:Good for you. Then they put the chemo in my body and within 20 minutes of what I knew was going to be really intense chemo, within 20 minutes I could feel all the chemicals going through your body and I'm like all my grit, all my will, I'm just surviving. Wow, Because then we began just getting sick Like every 20 minutes for day after day after day, week after week. So the treatment was brutal. It was really brutal.
Piet Van Waarde:And how long?
Marsha Andre:was it? Getting ready for the transplant took maybe three rounds of significant treatment and then you get treatment and then it's three weeks getting your body ready for the next round and then the transplant itself was a month, four to five weeks.
Marsha Andre:Because they're killing off everything in your body that can reproduce. They're just wanting to really kill everything that can be you know, I don't know reproduce. And then they're putting your new. You know they spun it out. You know they're taking something out of your body, your cells, and trying to get them cancer free so that when the time comes they're going to put them back in you and hope it really pre-produces something healthy.
Piet Van Waarde:Yeah, and so how long was that? From the time you got your diagnosis, you went through all that.
Marsha Andre:I think the diagnosis was June and I came out Thanksgiving.
Piet Van Waarde:All right.
Marsha Andre:So six months of pretty intense, pretty intense yeah.
Piet Van Waarde:Right, and my guess is that, like given the seriousness of your diagnosis, there's always that little fear in the back of your mind, particularly early on, where it's like did they get it all, Is it?
Marsha Andre:going to come back.
Marsha Andre:How did you like move forward after they did all that I mean like was it a part of your thinking, when you have to face what you believe is your death and they're saying we're going to give you a shot, but you know, statistically, all the odds are probably not in your favor. How do you move forward? How do you live? How do you anticipate a future? I think for a long time I just would not even let myself go and imagine a life that might be five years out. It felt too risky to me.
Piet Van Waarde:I can imagine.
Marsha Andre:So I think I just was living truly in the day-to-day and just you know, you're in a survival mentality I have today. I'm getting through today.
Piet Van Waarde:I can imagine so I'm just going to seize it, wow, wow. So I'm just going to seize it, wow, wow. And so like did you, because I know you're also now a highly sought after counselor. You have a great practice and stuff. Did you even give yourself permission to imagine that some of that might be possible?
Marsha Andre:It was because of this. It was after I got through, and I should mention I don't know if I said that my dad had been who was a deep, amazing man of faith, had the same diagnosis. I was 10 years old and I watched him suffer and die after four years. So I thought me who feels like I couldn't, not me who feels like I couldn't. You know, he was a giant of faith.
Piet Van Waarde:How am I? How will I?
Marsha Andre:make it through this. It's hard for me to imagine, so the whole faith part of it was a little challenging.
Piet Van Waarde:Let's talk about that. Okay, you said you had some people praying.
Marsha Andre:I did.
Piet Van Waarde:More than just praying like doing visuals. But how did your own faith play in to the healing process for you?
Marsha Andre:I would like to say that I was deeply holding on to my faith through this journey. I think sometimes the only word I could get out was help, like it was truly feeling, like there was a torrent of water and I'm holding on to a limb and I'm hoping just to survive, whatever's happening in that moment it was yeah, they were days of survival. And then, looking back, you know I have deep gratitude and then, looking back, I have deep gratitude.
Marsha Andre:Thank you, god. The river subsided, I'm on the limb and I'm still here. I'm so grateful. So it's hard for me to think a year out, even though I know I don't know. You live in the big, I don't know, and you have to manage the uncertainty that we all have. This just kind of gets you on the fast course gets you on the fast course of living with I don't know, but God is truly. My life is in your hands. I've known that theoretically.
Piet Van Waarde:I bet.
Marsha Andre:Now I get it viscerally that I don't know, and my life is in your hands Now.
Piet Van Waarde:I get it viscerally that I don't know, and my life is in your hands.
Marsha Andre:There is such a difference between being able to articulate a theological truth and live it right. That, more than anything else, is you know, you know, you know cognitively, all the truths that you believe you've built your life on, all the truths that you believe you've built your life on. And then, in a moment when it starts happening, and you're you know, when the shock and the despair and the my life is now over, it's just you get a different, you just get a different. Yeah.
Piet Van Waarde:Yeah, I've told this story before, but you know, as you're describing it, I remember that after my surgery, so they had to take my kidney, my prostate, some lymph nodes, and I was at Mayo Clinic and it was one of those nights where I couldn't sleep. I was in so much pain and I was also questioning my future, like is this really it.
Piet Van Waarde:Is it over? Am I over? Is it like? Am I going to make it? And I still remember like I looked at the clock on the wall and I thought I had survived for five, 10, 15 minutes and it was like a minute, you know. And you're just like like, I love that image of holding on because that's really what it is. It is. You're just like okay, I'm going to hold on for another minute and. God, I hope you'll meet me in this minute.
Piet Van Waarde:Right, and then all of a sudden it turns into the two, three, five minutes and you wake up in the morning and you're still there, yeah, and there is super gratitude and joy. Okay, I made it through the night I made it.
Marsha Andre:I made it through another night.
Piet Van Waarde:Right, okay. So then you start getting better, you start feeling better, and then you decide okay, well, I guess I'm going to be here yet for a while.
Marsha Andre:I'll take the time I have. Yes, what am I going to do with it? Right, it kind of matters now, because I don't know how much there is.
Piet Van Waarde:So what led you into counseling? Is that something that was like birthed in you a long time ago?
Marsha Andre:No, I had no thought of it.
Marsha Andre:It was never a thought in my mind. I'm working at a company, I have business undergrad and when I graduated and when I got out of my transplant, I thought, okay, what am I going to do with my life that feels meaningful and has purpose? I don't know if I want to go back and improve the bottom line of a company. Don't know if that's what I want to do with this time. So I started looking through the classified section of the newspaper and thought what grabs me, what feels meaningful? And then I found out about this MSW degree. I didn't know what it was and thought I'm going to go back to grad school and see if I can cultivate some skills to kind of show up for other people who are walking through the unimaginable, who are walking through pain. I feel like that's my life.
Marsha Andre:Now I get it and I just want to go alongside of people who are doing that.
Piet Van Waarde:So would you say that you're like it sounds like your diagnosis definitely provided the pivot?
Marsha Andre:It did. It was the pivot Incentive for the pivot.
Piet Van Waarde:Would you say that your diagnosis also affected how you entered the practice, like how you started counseling, how you started thinking about helping people?
Marsha Andre:It did. It does affect it because I remember applying for my first job and I'm young to enter into a private practice or a counseling practice and I just thought, oh my gosh, I'm too young to do this. But I remember them saying you know, there is a sense about you. We feel like you've gone, you've had some just tough things you've walked through. You know, we sense something different, some maturity about you, and it was my cancer and it was my cancer. It was the transformation that happens to you when you face the dark night of your soul, when you face death and have to come back, so that I think it lent a level of their belief that I could show up and maybe with other people who are struggling, in a way that would create some credibility.
Piet Van Waarde:Yeah, I wonder if you had the same experience Like I think one of the things I noticed in terms of the work I do now is that not only do you maybe have some perspective that's helpful, but you also have a pretty clear idea of what's not helpful. Right, right, Do you have that sense in your practice? Yeah, I have some stories about that.
Marsha Andre:You know, because again we read all the things, all the things how not to show up for someone who's just had a trauma? Or tragedy, but I certainly heard it. I mean, I remember right afterwards, like right afterwards, someone cornering me and saying you know, what sin have you committed? You know, like literally, like what do you need to confess Because you know God has visited this on you for a certain reason?
Piet Van Waarde:And.
Marsha Andre:I remember my husband stood in front of me and took that on and I'm like you know, because I'm still in shock and trauma over the diagnosis and you know, it's just. You know the constant. Sometimes we don't know how to be there for people. So I think, okay, I'm going to go to school, I'm going to figure out how to show up for people in a way that hopefully allows them to feel heard.
Piet Van Waarde:Yeah, and helped, and helped, and helped, right, right, don't make it worse. Right, because it is a lonely First. Do not harm.
Marsha Andre:And there's a loneliness that comes from this, Because no one can be in the middle of the night with you feeling what you feel. There's no words to describe it. Right? You know the kind of real deep pain of I don't know if I can survive it another minute because it feels too much. And do I want to keep going if this is what I'm feeling?
Piet Van Waarde:Right.
Marsha Andre:And there's an isolation and a loneliness that come from that place. So you know, I think if there's any way of being present to someone as they're able to even touch just a bit of that, yeah, I think that can be a little bit of relief.
Piet Van Waarde:Well, and just giving them words for it right. So I think sometimes certainly true for me the emotions become so overwhelming that you don't even know how to describe it. But then if you hear somebody else talk, about it. You're like oh yeah, that's what I felt.
Piet Van Waarde:And then when you put words to talk about it and you're like, oh yeah, that's what I felt, that. And then when you put words to it, it actually gives you an opportunity to kind of access resources that address that need and just kind of gives part the healing process right, it's true it's true.
Piet Van Waarde:So, um, as you look back on your cancer experience I I know that this, as people have asked me this question, it's kind of hard time, you know, kind of summarizing it, but I'm going to let you feel the same pain I felt um, what? What are some of the things that you feel like have shaped your life as a result of the cancer experience, like how were you different? How are you like? What are some of the?
Marsha Andre:lessons, if you will that you learned from all that? I would not wish this path on anyone. But if you're on this path you do get a little superpower, you get a little unique gift and that is the gift of and I know it's cliche, but it's true that life feels different, Life is different, the brevity of life becomes more real yeah the this moment matters. That's why you said, hey, do you want to come? And I'm like, of course I'm gonna come you know, yes, becomes a word yes is a way that you I mean, why would I say no?
Marsha Andre:because I, I'm gonna take it all, I'm gonna take it all, I'm going to take it, I'm going to take life for what I can I love it. I'm going to face down whatever I need to face down and embrace it, whether it's relationships, whether it's experiences, I want it.
Piet Van Waarde:I have heard so many people use some of those exact same words. They'll start by saying I would not wish this on anybody.
Marsha Andre:Okay, all right, all right words.
Piet Van Waarde:They'll start by saying I would not wish this on anybody and at the same time, there is a gift that I've been given that I would not have been given without the diagnosis, which sounds like crazy.
Marsha Andre:It does sound crazy.
Piet Van Waarde:But I totally get it too. There is something that happens in your soul and there's things that you know. We learn things different ways. So we can read something or we can watch something. We say, like by observation or by engaging certain material resources we learn. But there's a whole different kind of learning that happens when you walk through an experience, especially when it regards lots of suffering.
Piet Van Waarde:It does you discover you had things you didn't think you had and that your faith really will hold up in the midst of it Not to say you don't have any doubts during it, but, like you said, in retrospect you can say you know what it really did carry me through those prayers really did make a difference Absolutely. And holding on to the promises that I understood from the scriptures, that they do. They are a firm foundation right, yes, so yeah.
Marsha Andre:Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death.
Piet Van Waarde:I will fear.
Marsha Andre:no evil has a different meaning.
Piet Van Waarde:Yeah.
Marsha Andre:Yeah, it just has a different meaning. Yeah, and again in my work with my clients who are all there from deep trauma, hurt, you know for one, I know we all have a story.
Piet Van Waarde:Yeah.
Marsha Andre:You know, most people have a story that isn't always shared. And when people have a chance to share their story and when people find healing, I've always sensed even if I go amongst out in the community in my life people who had deep suffering and who have recovered well, meaning they haven't gone to bitterness and despair but they've just found their way through. You can sense it in people. You know they're beautiful people who have suffered and found a way to get back to hope and to life and to living.
Piet Van Waarde:Yeah, so found a way to get back to hope and to life and to living? Yeah, so I want to touch on some subjects that are like more specific, as it relates to not just cancer but just like living life. But maybe with cancer it has a like they are more in the forefront.
Piet Van Waarde:So I think one of the things I've noticed is that fear is a regular part of life, you know. Fear of will it come back, fear of what you know. What would I go through if you know I pass prematurely? What's going to happen with my kids, my husband, you know my family, so it's present.
Piet Van Waarde:It's like you don't invite it, it just it's just there, and so we have to have ways of of navigating it and processing it, and I'm just curious, and you can answer this like either way or maybe both like what do you do yourself, because I'm sure even now you know you like it could come back, and then, and then also maybe how you help others. What are some strategies for processing fear?
Marsha Andre:For one, I would certainly just validate the power of it, um, and how unwelcome it is and how, in a moment, it can just show up and grip, and just grip your soul.
Marsha Andre:It feels like a death grip and that's hard, you know how. When that happens, what do you do? And there's lots of things we could that are kind of cliche-ish, you know. Just trust God and you know, move on, or you know all those different things, and I would say my fear in particular it was, it felt like it was right in front of me all the time as life has gone on and you go about living, it somehow seems to move itself to the side, you know, so it's in my peripheral view.
Piet Van Waarde:And do you think that's like on purpose, like do you feel like if you can give yourself permission to think about life, it will by natural?
Marsha Andre:like'm like fueling the fire of it. My whole body doesn't know. I'm just imagining, you know, my whole body is reacting as if it's true, and then I can't settle it down. It's like almost running hot. Um so, rather than tell myself, don't think about it, which is yeah that's not happening I I just find if I really am intentional about what I do think about if.
Marsha Andre:I go about living life fully. It just seems to just take a little bit of. It just seems to go into the back burner a little bit, yeah yeah. A little bit, yeah yeah.
Piet Van Waarde:And you know, you hear people talk about and we've had conversations in other settings about this. But you know, there are principles, there's scriptures that people kind of come back to as like I'm going to hold on to this. I'm going to hang on to this promise you know. These are the things I repeat to myself. Did you have anything like that that served you well in terms of navigating?
Marsha Andre:the fear equation. Well, my life verse is relevant in this, which is trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding, and all your ways acknowledge him. So I just felt like that's my prayer of surrender. Like you know, the other thing that I held to deeply was the story of Daniel. You know, I really really related to getting thrown into the fiery furnace and I thought I don't know if I'm going to come out. I might get burned alive, which kind of feels like it. But if he saves me, he'll save me and I had to. I mean, that's an easy thing to say, but it's a constant decision to go your way, not mine. You know your way, not mine. I'm trusting you with whatever I have and whatever shows up. And again, I was told I was out of remission multiple times. So I've had practice of one more time.
Marsha Andre:And then again there's implications. When you've had as much chemo and radiation as I've had, I've got damage to my lungs, I've got some heart issues. But then again I get practice right. I've had 40 years of practice. I'm going okay. One more round of uncertainty, you know we have children. One more round, lots of rounds of uncertainty. And how do I want to live? You know that becomes my question is I don't have any control over what's going to land on my lap. I don't have any say over what happens. What shows up tomorrow, the phone call I might get this afternoon. All I can do is decide how I want to live through it, how I want to walk through that door and remind myself over and over again, grab the hands of my people, my friends and family, and trust that, whatever it is, I'm going to hold on tight and let happen whatever happens.
Piet Van Waarde:I love how you mentioned that, because it's been something that I've been kind of pondering a lot myself lately, that this power of choice is so real. Power of choice is so real, like sometimes you know you're driven by things whether it's, you know, emotion or tapes playing in the back of your mind about who you are or what you can't do and you know those things really do have influence. But at the end of the day, like you said, we get a choice about like am. I going to allow those messages, those fears those anxieties to determine my behaviors and my choices?
Piet Van Waarde:Or am I going to say you know, what? Yeah, all of that might be true, all of that may have impact, but that's not where I'm going.
Marsha Andre:It's not what I'm going to do. And you hear the energy of your voice. Yeah, it almost takes a foot stomping. Like no, like no, yes, I'm not giving it. I refuse to let my life go that way.
Piet Van Waarde:Yeah, I'm reminded of Peter. He had that moment with Jesus where Jesus is speaking to the crowd and he's saying some really hard things and people start peeling off right and they're going in different directions. And Jesus is watching that and he turns to the disciples and he says so are you guys going to leave too? And I like to imagine that picture in my mind where Peter is thinking about it. He's like you know what? You're saying some stuff that I'm not sure I can live with. And then it's almost as though I can imagine him in his mind's eye saying yeah, but where am I going to go? Like who has the words of?
Marsha Andre:life. What's my option?
Piet Van Waarde:And then he chooses. He's just like you know what Other people may leave. Other people may do other things, but you know what? This is where I'm going to put my trust. This is where I'm going to land.
Marsha Andre:Yeah, yes, You've got the words life.
Piet Van Waarde:Yes, not doing anything else. Thank you for my mini-surgery. Not an easy decision, no, no.
Marsha Andre:It's so powerful because it's not that it's easy, it's not that you even think you have the capacity.
Piet Van Waarde:Yeah.
Marsha Andre:I'd say we don't have the capacity If we all knew what was ahead of us. How many of us would just say no, but it is the. Peter made a decision in that moment. He was sober-minded and said, okay, I'll take the next step. Yeah, I'll take the next step. Yeah, I don't think he knew it was like. I don't think he knew it was ahead of him.
Piet Van Waarde:You know Well, he may have even known that, like, if this is, this is what he's talking about now it's probably going to get harder.
Marsha Andre:It's going to get harder, right, right.
Piet Van Waarde:All right. One last question about pain, because people who are in treatment and then people who you know for a number of other reasons, health concerns or even emotional and even past pains and hurts have to process deep levels of pain. And when you're hurting like you just want to cash it all in. You just want to say like just let it be over, you know, or give me something that will like numb it all out. What are you like both? What did you do? What do you do?
Marsha Andre:How do you help other people navigate pain, the problem of pain? Question a question for all time, really, really, because I think it's our human nature, just our nature, to just run, yeah, or? Numb out yeah, whatever it takes to not have to walk through the fire, mm-hmm. And if I thought any of those methods were the shortcut, I'd take them. You know, if I thought there was another way through except through, I'd probably find it Mm-hmm, but there isn't, and I don't know if there's any easy answer for that.
Piet Van Waarde:Yeah, you know, come on, counselor I isn't and I don't know if there's any easy answer for that, you know.
Marsha Andre:I don't, I don't. I've certainly heard that in my office. Isn't there another way? You know, do I have to be in the life that I have right now, facing down the things that I have to face down, you know, whether it's losing a child, whether it's getting a diagnosis, whether someone just walked out after 50 years, whatever it is, you know, isn't there any way to not feel this? And I just, I believe in the power of grief and I think if we don't grieve, it comes out sideways. It ends up hurting those we love most.
Marsha Andre:And so that's why, if grief shows up, if panic or pain show up, I don't want to focus on it, but I often say I'm going to put my hands right here on my heart and just offer my own self compassion and kindness, not judgment, but just to be present, however I can, and say God help. However I can and say God help and just know that eventually that deep, severe pain will come and it will go.
Marsha Andre:It's almost like standing there and the waves of the ocean are going to crash over you and you're not sure you're going to stand and survive it. You can feel your feet kind of sinking down into the wet sand, but it's stand and stand and then no, and just no, no, no, it's going to come, it's going to go, and you're just saying God help me in this moment. Face down what's right here in my life and help me have the courage to be here, just to be here with it.
Piet Van Waarde:You know, I appreciate you saying that, because sometimes people will look at you, know somebody like yourself and you know you've gone through so much, you're so strong, and then the message might be like I got to be strong like that, I got to like stiff upper lip it, but to be able to acknowledge that it's okay to cry out for help. You know like I am not strong enough for this.
Piet Van Waarde:Lord Right, this is too much. It is too much. You know help, I am not strong enough for this. Lord Right, this is too much. It is too much Help me.
Marsha Andre:It is Meet me.
Piet Van Waarde:And that like desperate cry there's like and I don't think it's just psychological, but I think there's something really powerful from a spiritual perspective to like just let it all out and say I need your intervention.
Marsha Andre:Lord, Absolutely I need your help.
Piet Van Waarde:Please meet me in this moment, Right right and it's not, like you said, the magic formula. So now it's no longer hard, but it's like somehow even those words become like prayers and they give you some measure of relief in the middle of the pain.
Marsha Andre:It's true, it's like find the nearest hand of someone you love and hold it tight. I remember during one of my I don't know, it was like a spinal tap kind of thing bone marrow biopsy. Anyway, it was bad, and I just had a nurse and I think I might have broken some hands, I might have broken her fingers, broken her fingers because that's a literal that. You know the literal pain of it. I just found myself instinctively just grabbing so hard. But I'm just how great, oh my gosh.
Marsha Andre:I just told her afterwards thank god for you yeah, yeah because that human contact from someone I didn't even know helped me get through it love it.
Piet Van Waarde:Yeah, wellha, thank you so much for your vulnerability. It's so good to see you. Thank you for making the trip out here, Absolutely so grateful for your story and for your kindness and our friendship over the years. Absolutely.
Marsha Andre:I cheer on all those that are going through hard times. You know whether it's cancer or other things. You know we're talking about the universality of pain, the unknown, and what that means to be human, what it means to not be strong, what it means to grab onto a hand and pray to God for help. Yeah, yeah, so glad to be here, Thank you.
Piet Van Waarde:And thank you for joining us for another Sidewalk Conversation. I hope that you found some help and encouragement from the things that we shared. As always, you are free to reach out if there's a way that we can be of help more personally. We also offer a great course called building your resistance against cancer that if you'd like to be a part of that or want more information about it, we'd love to send that to you, and so you can message us privately and we'll make sure you get that information. But thank you for joining us and join us next time for another Sidewalk Conversation.
