Sidewalk Conversations
"Let the one who thinks he stands, take heed lest he fall..." (1 Corinthians 10:12)
Standing strong and remaining true to your calling is no easy task. No one sets out to crash and burn. In fact, it's actually the opposite, most people want to stand strong, remain effective, and be true to their values all the way through to the end. But, it is really hard to do.
In these interviews, Piet Van Waarde (a 40 year veteran of pastoral ministry) has heart-to-heart conversations with ordinary people about what it takes to stay faithful and effective in the things that matter most.
Sidewalk Conversations
Friendship, Failure, and Finding a Way Back with Kurt Andre
Kurt Andre shares his journey through a 45-year friendship with the host, discussing authentic relationships, professional transitions, and personal redemption after crisis.
• Kurt grew up on four continents in a military family, moving constantly until college
• Authentic friendship means having someone who knows your story and loves you anyway
• Your "why" comes out of your "who" – discover passion by noticing what you're good at
• Small experimental steps help minimize risk when transitioning careers
• At 39, Kurt's carefully managed life crashed when his incongruent living was exposed
• He lost his job, family, and ended up sleeping in his car in Boston during winter
• A group of men committed to meeting with him weekly for two years during recovery
• Childhood coping mechanisms often become adult defense mechanisms that sabotage relationships
• True healing requires self-reflection and creating safe spaces for vulnerability
• Kurt's relational constellation includes "water in" (mentors), "water with" (peers), and "water out" (serving)
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Thank you for joining us for another Sidewalk Conversation. I'm glad to be your host today and I'm very excited about inviting a lifelong friend to join me on the pod. We're going to be talking about a whole series of things. We're going to talk about friendship, we're going to talk about business and we're even going to work through a failure, and so I'm excited about introducing you to my guest. But before we do, I just want to say a personal word about friendship.
Piet Van Waarde:You know, a lot of times we are told that community, especially in Christian context, we're told that community is so important because we have to have people that we're going to walk life with. We need people to be our encouragers, our truth tellers, our fun friends, and all of that's really important. But I also find myself resonating deeply with the statement that says we are the combination of the five people who are closest to us. There is a sense in which our closest relationships really do shape not only who we become, but who we get to know, and the friend that I'm introducing you today is somebody that has served as a spiritual encourager. He's been a leader, he's been an example, and I have found him to be such a person that I can go to at all seasons of life. In fact, we have stretched 45 years together and I hope those of you who are watching have the opportunity to have such friendships in your life, because they really are a source of such richness, such blessing. When people know you and see you and are part of your lives, they bring out the best in you, and that's certainly the case with this friend, and I hope you have one as well. I can't wait to see you meet him.
Piet Van Waarde:I do want to say a word of thanks to our sponsor as we get started today. I want to commend you to Pickleball Kingdom. Everybody knows about pickleball these days and everybody's playing it, and if you happen to be in the Austin area, I want to suggest that Pickleball Kingdom may be a place that you want to check out. They have absolutely beautiful facilities and they are conveniently located in the center of Pflugerville, and so if you are interested in learning or if you're an old pro, it'd be a great place for you to check out. So that's Pickleball Kingdom, 1900 North Howard Lane, and it's a place that you need to see. All right now let me introduce to you my good friend and actually the best man for my wedding, kurt Andre hey. Kurt, thank you for joining us.
Kurt Andre:Oh gosh Pete, this is a huge privilege to be here.
Piet Van Waarde:Thank you. We introduced our audience to your wife last week and she did so well, so I'm just going to say it right up front Don't suck. I mean like she raised the bar really high.
Kurt Andre:I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised.
Piet Van Waarde:Well, I want to start by just kind of having a conversation about friendship. That's kind of where we started today. You and I have known each other. We counted up the years 45 years, 45 years spring of 1980 is when we met. Yeah, so we were back in college at that time and we became fast friends and then your wife told I didn't I don't know if you may have told me, but I didn't remember but your wife told us in the last episode that you guys kind of made a connection at our wedding.
Kurt Andre:Yes, we did, march 10th, so I need to take credit for that too. You're welcome to if you'd like. Absolutely yeah. Yeah, so you met at the wedding and then you got together and Knew each other from classes but certainly being a part of your wedding and kind of roping her into helping me get you into horse and carriage, afterwards.
Piet Van Waarde:That's right, that's how we left, yeah.
Kurt Andre:And yeah, that was at that kind of that moment. That's where it kind of began Now.
Piet Van Waarde:One of the things I've enjoyed so much about our relationship is that you have kind of a philosophic bent, as I enjoy having as well, and so I want to philosophize a little bit about friendship. We've known each other for 45 years. We've watched each other walk through a variety of seasons of life getting sorted professionally and then with children and crises, and great times too. We did some great vacations together, and so, from your perspective, what are some of the things that you think about? What are some of the things that you of the things that you think about? What are some of the things that you value about deep, lifelong friendships, and why would it be worth the investment for somebody to say, hey, you know what, I think this is something in life worth investing in.
Kurt Andre:Well, that's a great question and, to give context, you probably remember that I grew up my whole life, until college moving virtually every year.
Kurt Andre:So I grew up on four continents. My dad was in the military, spoke six languages and the military capitalized on that. And so I found myself at the beginning of every school year new kids, new neighborhood, sometimes new culture, new language. And I remember meeting you in the spring, and then we came back to school in the fall and the first thought when I saw you was you're still here. I came back to school in the fall and the first thought when I saw you was you're still here.
Kurt Andre:And this idea of having somebody over the course of years was new to me, somebody who knew my story, who was excited to see me as much as I was excited to see them. That was a life experience and I think that one of the things that, as I've reflected on our relationship, that I think it's we've stayed in touch, we've stayed connected and there's so much alignment. I mean I think we share faith together. We share, I think, excitement, enthusiasm, leadership, certainly. So there's things that we enjoy, things that we like, things that we're hardwired to and then, kind of woven together, the commitment to stay in touch. You know, initially we talked about going to New England to plant a church.
Piet Van Waarde:I know you're still holding that against me. A hundred percent, I am.
Kurt Andre:I was going to be the therapist and you were going to be the pastor and et cetera, and we ended up going to New England and you went to Virginia Beach and, regardless of where our vocations have taken us, where our calling has taken us, to stay connected and I think this dynamic of being known, the good and the ugly, the difficult and the celebration, I know, for me has's been cathartic because I've struggled a lot with that in my life and I feel like you've been somebody who sees me and still loves me and that's a gift. I don't feel like our relationship is conditional and even though stretches of time where we haven't talked every day for 45 years, there's been stretches of time when we didn't see each other and yet come back together you, you know it's kind of cliche, but people say like, like you know, nothing ever had, no gap, ever happened.
Piet Van Waarde:Uh, there certainly is that dynamic of connection and joy I want to just camp out on that point a little bit, because I think that there's something to be said about that. Um, because you know there were like in the early, you know we were like best friends in college.
Piet Van Waarde:And then when we met our wives, there was like a group of four couples. We did a lot of things together and then kids came in the picture and then it wasn't as we didn't get in touch with as often. But you know, periodically we would kind of touch a base with one another. And now recently, now the kids are gone and we have a little bit more independence- Right, it's been resurrected.
Piet Van Waarde:I think, like I've seen people make the excuse that, well, it's been a long time since we've been in touch and they use that as an excuse not to kind of go back and say you know, that was a really meaningful friendship. There may be something still there. Why not reach out? And you'd be surprised by how valuable just making that effort to kind of reach out and say, hey, I miss you. You were such a good friend to me and being willing to open that door or knock on that door I think is such an essential part of it. And then when you do it, you're like, oh, this is awesome, right no-transcript.
Kurt Andre:we saw each other at the airport and had this kid together. It was very purposeful, because Pete and Carol are people that I want in my life, and so I think we have found that, which has led to being here today.
Piet Van Waarde:Which, by the way, thank you very much. All right, let me pivot and talk a little bit about your professional life, because you have done quite a bit in your life. You started off headed to seminary and going the pastoral route. While you were doing that you're, I think, painting houses.
Kurt Andre:Put us through grad school.
Piet Van Waarde:So you have a handy side to yourself, and then again you made another transition to more speaking, consulting. Now you have your own company, All of those things. You might not necessarily see the thread, obviously, between all that, but for you, I'm sure it feels more like oh, this led to that, this led to that. How did you navigate some of those transitions? What prompted them, and was there a grid that you used as a way to make those decisions? Because I think people who are watching probably find themselves in similar positions where maybe the thing that I wanted to start to do in life is not the thing that I'm doing now or want to do now, but I don't know how to make the transition. So what would you say about that?
Kurt Andre:That's a great question. I often get asked Kurt, how did you get to where you're doing? Where'd you go to school? What jobs did you have?
Kurt Andre:And as wildly successful as Simon Sinek is and he's a great communicator and I love what a lot of you hear I would fundamentally disagree with his initial premise. You know he talks about the important thing in life and business is discover your why, and I would agree that's incredibly important. But to me, your why comes out of your who and starting the journey with knowing who you are, what your passion is, what your strengths are. I tell people I work with, if you want to find your passion, you're finding your why. Pay attention to what you're good at, where your strengths are. I tell people I work with if you want to find your passion, you're finding your why. Pay attention to what you're good at, where your strengths are.
Kurt Andre:I had no intention of going into student ministry. You and I were interviewing pastors around Tulsa who had planted churches. Give us insight, wisdom. What would you tell these two young guys? And I remember one of them asking me what are you doing with your life? And I was dating Marsha, waiting for her to finish, and he said why don't you be our youth pastor. Well, I didn't know what that was. I was the only teenager in my church never been in the youth ministry didn't know that was a job and so naively said sure.
Kurt Andre:And that was the beginning of me discovering wow, you can love young people. Get to know God. Design a T-shirt.
Piet Van Waarde:Tell a booger joke go on a trip and get paid for that.
Kurt Andre:And so I feel like I kind of backed into student ministry, realized I was biblically illiterate. We were thinking about going to New England, so I went to Boston for seminary and just really fell in love with coming alongside young people. So there wasn't a crystallized moment of feeling a calling in that direction, but being in the moment, listening to an opportunity. And then I think there's a guy by the name of Parker Palmer. I used to listen to him on NPR pre-podcast and I remember one episode he talked about when often when we're reading a book, we're listening to somebody speak. Often our temptation is to take notes on what it is that they're saying. But he said something that resonated with me. He said the best notes that we take are the notes we take on ourselves, paying attention to when somebody says something. How does that land on you when you hear a concept, what stands out for you about that?
Kurt Andre:And I think that the trajectory of my life has been more about learning to listen to myself, certainly with the influence of others, and there's probably a formula there, but that's how I followed my life in student ministry. There's probably a formula there, but that's how I followed my life in student ministry, started to be asked to help other student ministries and hit a wall when I was 39. Talk about that probably later Went through a significant season of trying to figure out what do I do now. Had five men that came alongside me that really were helpful in that transition. Had a mentor who's still in my life. He raised an issue. He said Kurt, why don't you think about getting off of your stage and helping people on theirs?
Piet Van Waarde:Never thought about that idea. Oh, that's a great. Say that again.
Kurt Andre:That's a good one Well it was Leighton Ford, who's been in my life since 1993. During that season of God, what do I do next? He challenged me with this idea Kurt, why don't you think about getting off of your stage the work that you've been doing For me it was student ministry and why don't you help people on theirs? And I was like you can do that for a living, and I was doing it somewhat ad hoc, not certainly getting paid for it.
Kurt Andre:And that began the journey of what does it actually look like to come alongside other people to help them in their area, their industry, their platform, their role, who they are. That caused the pivot from local church ministry to really moving into consulting and coaching.
Piet Van Waarde:You know, what I love about that part of the story is, you know, sometimes when, especially as believers, we talk about the leadership of the Holy Spirit and I can't remember who said it to me it was early in my ministry too it's like a lot of times, as pastors, we're hoping that we get light ahead of us that will show us how to, how we're supposed to proceed, where we're supposed to go, what we're supposed to do, and it rarely happens that way. You rarely get in advance what you need. It's along the way, like as you're doing.
Kurt Andre:Discovered on the journey?
Piet Van Waarde:Yeah, as you're doing, discovered on the journey. Yeah, as you're doing things, you, you resonate with them and you're like oh wow, this feels really good, this feels really right. This is me, you know, and those are the moments that become so directional in terms of what you end up doing, and it sounds like that's exactly what happened yeah, I, I was never one and there are people that have this and I'm certainly certainly not.
Kurt Andre:There's no criticism here. This idea of here's where I want to be, you know, at 25 or in 40 or 50, 75. I think as I look back and see God's direction Psalm 32, 8,. The Lord promises to guide and instruct us in the way that we should go. He'll counsel us with his eye. Better understood in hindsight than foresight that it's being present in the moment. Okay, god, bouncing off other people who I respect prayerfully, considering, that's really been more the trajectory than in five years, here's where I want to be and then in 15 years, here's where I want to be. It's never been the process that I've used. I would argue you can, at this point in life you can probably only look out three to five years.
Kurt Andre:Too much changes, technology, culture shifts in life. The work that I do with clients, whether it's individual, coaching or organizational, three to five years is about as far out as you can look in your window, and how do you know to get there? I really believe starts with the premise of what I call knowing your center who are you, what are your values, your vision, your mission, and getting clear on that. And then it unfolds. Well, what does that express look like? Again, whether that's personal or organizational, yeah, love that.
Piet Van Waarde:So when you find yourself in a helping position, you're talking to people about these kinds of transitions, one of the things that you're like. If I were in your network of people, you're helping and I was like I think I might like to do this. You know, and you're also trying to, at the same time as a believer, say, Lord, is this what you're leading me to do? And there's like a lot of question marks around it all and we would like to have more confidence, especially if it feels risky. So when people are in that position where they have like some sense of what they're supposed to do but they're not highly confident that it's the right next step, what are some of the things that you tell them that they should do in order to kind of move forward.
Kurt Andre:Yeah, that's a great question and kind of the framework I use is what I would call organic intentionality. The organic piece is Organic intentionality. Organic intentionality, this organic sense of I'm sensing, I think and what about, and then the intentionality is well, are you good at that?
Kurt Andre:Is that what your passion is? We've probably all heard of that Venn diagram, of the hedgehog principle, that what am I passionate about? What do I have an opportunity? What am I naturally inclined to be?
Kurt Andre:When you lay those three over, it's like when I was in high school. I loved basketball. I went to basketball camp, I dribbled up and down the driveway, I ended up going to actually an almost all-black high school, and so I tried out for the team and I think I made it. Only because I was a white guy, scored two points my sophomore year. I was a white guy, scored two points my sophomore year. I was terrible at basketball, so I was passionate about it. I made the team. The problem was I sucked. That was clearly not my hedgehog, and I think in working with people and I also believe, juxtaposed to that, that nobody becomes whom they have the capacity to be by themselves I really think that we have one of the most dangerous voices in our head. It's our own salesperson. In the recovery world, they talk about an addict who listens to his own counsel as a person in a dangerous company right.
Kurt Andre:So I think, when you're sensing something, being in a position of having somebody be on the other side of you or having wise people to process with, to give you feedback of, Because I think that you know whether it's something you ate for breakfast or it was the movement of the Holy Spirit, that's going to be validated, that's going to be codified, that's going to be reinforced and supported by whether, again, the intentionality, the data, that doesn't make sense. I have a client in Miami who wants to launch about five businesses and he's all excited and he gave a great justification for each one of them and, as he's telling me, it's almost Kurt. What should I do? And I said well, you know, the number two reason for business failure is managing cash flow, and there's no way I can see how you can manage cash flow with five new entities being launched at the same time. Probably all really good. He was well, I think God's calling me to do this. I go well, unless you have a tree with money, I don't see it happening.
Kurt Andre:So I think that, certainly being led by the Spirit, and also processing with wise counsel, feedback, what's the data say that it's an algebraic equation of putting those things together which ends up resulting in discernment. I love that.
Piet Van Waarde:That's a really great. So paying attention to the nudges. Sure, being realistic about your skill set, inv. I love that. That's a really great. So to pay attention to the nudges, being realistic about your skillset, inviting somebody else along the way. One of the things that I've been thinking about, and I'd love for you to comment on this, is just the value of experimentation as well, like especially for people who may be a little bit more seasoned in life.
Piet Van Waarde:It feels to me like there've been transitions I've made at different seasons of my life, and you've always hear the cliche well, it gets easier over time. Well, I'm not sure that's true either, because when you're older it gets more complex over time, well, and there's more risk.
Piet Van Waarde:Well, a you feel like you should know more. B there may be some real financial implications to taking a step that you know. When you're young and got hardly any responsibility, it all sounds great, but when you get older it's like okay, there's some, there's some real risk here. So. But it seems to me that there'd be some value in just embracing the idea of experimentation, like doing small things that can give you an idea that this might be true. What's your perspective?
Kurt Andre:on that Great question. So a few years ago I got hired by a financial service company in New York and they wanted to do sales training about 1,200 salespeople and then leader development for their senior leadership across the company. And so a number of conversations back and forth. I have a five-phase process at U. It always starts with discovery. Based on the discovery that I did by interviewing focus groups, I have some tools that I use. I offered and said look, why don't we just start with a pilot? Because he wanted to create the program, roll out across the company, big guns. And I said my experience is that if we start small, and I said why don't you give me the lowest performing team in your company and then let me take them through the process that I think would be effective? And then let's see how it goes. Yeah, yeah. And so BodyGovs and surprisingly, maybe not they became the highest producing organization. And then what happened for me as somebody, as a consultant or a coach?
Piet Van Waarde:everybody wanted you know when do we get that?
Kurt Andre:So you're building buy-in, you're getting, but I think the idea of starting small I quote from what About Bob all the time, baby steps and in Atomic Habits which is a great resource it's this idea that change doesn't come from gigantic steps. It comes from small steps taken over a period of time.
Kurt Andre:It's called a catalytic mechanism and I think that when you're venturing out is to take those steps purposely, intentionally, in a particular direction and then there's this process that I use around you take a step, that's an action, and then you observe that action and then you tell yourself a story interpretation and then you repeat the action, adjust the action or stop the action, but building into whatever you do an iterative process of action. Observation, interpretation gives you then a feedback loop around should I do this, should I not do this? It lowers risk, doesn't eradicate risk, but it gives you incremental steps to know am I heading in the right direction? Does this make sense? Does it work? I mean, I mentioned the number two reason for business failure. The number one reason for business failure is offering a product or service nobody will buy. So you might be excited about it, but if you can't market it, nobody's interested. That that's not going to work.
Piet Van Waarde:Yeah, yeah, well, really well said, all right. So I want to again shift a little bit of focus.
Piet Van Waarde:So you've in your life you've had some great successes, you've done some really important things, helped people and been successful in a lot of areas of your life, but then you also had a time in your life where there was an interruption of all that and you had to face some hard things about yourself, and I know this is a very personal question, and so I only want you to feel free to engage with it however much detail you want to, but that became a very significant, defining moment in your life, and so tell me a little bit about what happened in all of that, what you learned from that, and maybe some guidance for some folks who find themselves at a similar crossroads.
Kurt Andre:Yeah, it's a great, great question and I appreciate your sensitivity in offering it. It is pretty real for me that the first 40 years of my life arguably things had gone really well. Academically I did fine. I swam in college, loved seminary. Student ministry did really well. From an outside perspective, growth and whatnot.
Kurt Andre:But in looking back I had the hindsight now that I was really living a compartmentalized life. I have abuse in my background, lots of who I was I was either in denial of or refused to look at, believing and thinking that that wouldn't really have any impact on my life, that I could stay focused on the trophies, the wins, as opposed to really looking at the difficulties and the struggles, really looking at the difficulties and the struggles. And so what began to happen for me from a ministry perspective, as things grew, as I was quote-unquote more successful, I began to live more and more misaligned with what I said was true about who I am, my values, my morals, that I was living an incredibly incongruent life. And the more I was incongruent, the harder I spun the tale of making it look like I was living a congruent life and that, you know you can only do that for so long Truth prevails. I really thought that I could live a life separated from who I really was, and one wouldn't get caught. And two, if I did, I knew my life would be over and so all the more perpetuated. Not living a congruent life, not living honest, living a life of deceit and image management.
Kurt Andre:And December 27, 2000,. That all crashed. That came to because truth did become revealed and the incongruency of my life was made manifest. And again I have clients who are living deceitfully and say you know it's going to come out, because I believe truth does.
Kurt Andre:And that was a crisis. I mean I lost my job, I lost my family. I was sleeping in my car in Boston in January. Wow, it was a major crisis in my life. But in the middle of that and I will get emotional there was a group of men that said Kurt, we'll work with you.
Kurt Andre:And for two years I met with them every week and they truly came alongside me. I put in septic systems, I went back to painting. I did whatever I could to make money because I lost my career. I was in the church and that went away from me. And in the midst of that, again trying to figure out what does my life look like now? What do I do? Because I only knew ministry and light construction, really just painting. Those were the things that I had done before. Is that what I'm going to do now? And it was a season of therapy, entering into the recovery world and again, the combination of those people in my life that came alongside me, one of whom my mentor. I remember talking to him and really apologizing for being such a failure.
Kurt Andre:And he's like Kurt, this relationship is about who you are, not about what you do. And for me to experience, really for the first time in my life, being known and being loved, because I still, to this day I'm 64. That was 25 years ago Still struggle with this. If you really knew me, you wouldn't love me, and I think part of our even coming back together and me telling you my story it's like, will I be loved? Because I grew up in a system that was conditional and didn't really help me understand that I could make mistakes and still be loved. That was a framework that didn't exist for me, and so for the last 25 years it's been continuing in that space.
Kurt Andre:And that's when Leighton said, kurt, have you ever considered getting off of your stage and helping people on theirs? That the idea of coaching came into mind. I got certified to be an executive coach and put out a shingle and started in the space that I knew, which was student ministry. I'll never forget the first guy I worked with, kevin Cox, who's still in my life all these years later. In fact, he's going to be in the academy that I run now training people that I do what I do, but it's still an ongoing journey. There's a man in my life he's a therapist that 25 years ago said Kurt, I want you to look in the mirror every day. And there's a sentence.
Piet Van Waarde:I want you to say Excuse me, kurt, you're an unrepeatable miracle of God.
Kurt Andre:Does anyone believe that? Still struggle with that. But this idea of truth, telling and being reminded and having people hold up a mirror In coaching. I call coaches mirror straighteners Because I think all of us look into mirrors like at a carnival. It is a reflection of who we are, but it's warped and part of the journey for me of coaching and even consulting organizationally is straightening out that mirror. I know this is the image you have yourself, but it's not who you are.
Kurt Andre:And so the privilege of straightening out that mirror, and that's been done for me. So a lot of my work is autobiographical.
Kurt Andre:I have no doubt that people I work with, companies that I come alongside of, one helping them know what center is, Because I didn't know what my center was. I knew what my image-managed center was, but really the core of who I am, who I want to be Because you don't know when you're off center unless you really know what center is Companies you don't know when you've gone sideways until you know who you are is all about. So that's been my journey of doing the work to know what center is, Experiencing people loving me for who I am, even though I'm broken Because brokenness was not an acceptable part of the equation to be loved, that I can still be broken and be loved. And I'm still on the journey of working that stuff out.
Kurt Andre:Thank you so yeah, it's changed my life, it's become more of who I am. Well, that was very brave of you, thank you.
Piet Van Waarde:So, yeah, it's changed my life, it's become more of who I am. Well, that was very brave of you, thank you. I do want to touch on a couple of things you said, because I think they are so important to the healing process you described and I think too many people miss it. So one of the things you said early on in your story was that there was a part of your life, there was a part of the things you experienced growing up in your family system that you thought you could separate yourself from by just being busy and quote unquote doing good, like somehow just leaving that in the past and not really looking at that again, believing it wouldn't impact my present Right.
Piet Van Waarde:That is such a common phenomenon you know, especially like in the broken world we live in. People immediately assume well, you know, everybody's got their stuff, everybody has their brokenness, you know it's just like, and so they use that as an excuse not to really deal with it. What would you say like why is it so important to go back and revisit some of that stuff and process it in a healthy way, whether it's with a counselor or with a pastor or with other resources? Why is that so crucial?
Kurt Andre:That's a great question. So, part of my journey, I'm in a men's group. I've been in for almost 16 years now. It's about 15 of us, same group, same group of guys.
Kurt Andre:That's facilitated by the guy who gave me that mantra, and I learned a lot from them and one of the guys in the group who arguably suffered way more than me growing up, shared with the group a metaphor that he uses and it's really resonating, and that is that when we're children, and regardless of our context or situation, good or horrible we learn ways of coping. It's almost like if, grown up, there are a lot of rapids in your life and there were in mine. We learn to construct this little life raft and we get in that life raft and it enables us to survive. Those are called coping mechanisms. But then what can happen and it certainly was for me if we continue to hold on to that life raft or pull it over our shoulder into adulthood, those coping mechanisms become defense mechanisms and the very thing that allowed us to survive as children sabotages what we long for as adults, and so my journey first off was what construction went on in my life to build the life raft that allowed me to survive.
Kurt Andre:You know, my therapist gave me another great image that behavior misaligned with who we are is an unhealthy way of meeting a healthy need. And so, for reframing that, the struggles that I have are real, they're okay, there's nothing wrong with them. How I take care of them is the issue, and I was using unhealthy, misaligned ways of meeting a healthy need. And so the idea that going back to learn what it is about how we figured out how to survive and being thankful for that, but then knowing I don't need that life raft anymore, it served me for a season I can let go of that and now learning new ways.
Kurt Andre:But I think, making the connection, I had a client a number of years ago was telling me that yeah, my wife just always is coming after me, and he moved on. I said whoa, what did you just say? He said what I said. You said your wife comes after you. I said look, I've met her Pretty nice person and come to find out he's a consummate conflict avoider, struggles to deal with hard issues.
Kurt Andre:So I just asked him the question what was life like for you growing up as a kid? I mean, how did you deal with conflict? My dad, when he had a whiskey in the hand, a belt in the other, he would beat the shit out of us. Excuse my French. He said that. So we all hid. I said and what happened? Well, if you hid, you didn't get beat up. I said so what you learned to survive conflict as a child is the same thing you're doing in your marriage. When there's conflict, you hide. And there was a long pause on the call. He said Kurt, I've never made the connection between what I did to learn to survive as a kid is now how I deal with conflict as an adult, and so that's why I think it's worth not going back and navel gazing as if it's a major organ. It's a belly button.
Piet Van Waarde:Okay, I get that.
Kurt Andre:But it's helpful, I know been, for me to go back and figure out okay, what did I do and how is that showing up now as an adult? Where is it unhelpful? Where is it helpful? So that I can again let go of the life raft because I don't need it anymore and yet understand, because I still get triggered. And the goal in life, I think, is not to not get triggered but to deal with your triggers differently. And somebody who is asleep to themselves or unaware of their past, they'll get triggered and they'll react more like they did as a kid than they can as an adult.
Piet Van Waarde:So well said, like they did as a kid than they can as an adult. So well said. The other piece that I wanted to talk a little bit about is that you obviously had some people that came along and really served you well, friends that walked with you, gave you great advice. One of the things that you kind of also touched on and I'd like you to unpack it a little bit is that there's always a thought in the back of your mind as you're about to enter in a relationship like that, like you might conceptually know, I need some help with this. I need, I cannot do this alone. So you kind of have that thought.
Piet Van Waarde:But then the secondary thought that almost comes right on the heels of that is yeah, but what will they think of me if I tell them? What will? That is yeah, but what will they think of me if I tell them? Will they really love me? They're just going to think I'm an idiot. And especially, I think from a ministry standpoint, it's even worse, because you're like I've said all these things throughout my life and now they have to find out this about me. How did you get past that? How did you finally get to a place where you said you know what Screw that I can't live this way anymore. I'm going to go ahead and be honest, I'm going to talk about my stuff with somebody and I'm going to get this sorted out. What was it that led you to a place where you could finally do that?
Kurt Andre:Yeah, that's another great question, Pete. Years ago I was getting ready to go overseas and was going to do a workshop and asked to put something together and just I, I believe you know God was very helpful in this and created a framework of how I understand what it means to live in community. I call it a relational constellation and it's all based on prepositions. I think a lot of life is is based on prepositions. What do I mean by that? That in this constellation identifying what I would call where in my life is water in? Who is it that I learn from? And to me, there's four categories.
Kurt Andre:I can read from others whom I'll never meet, but their words were wisdom that impacted my life. That's water. In. Another are people that I'll never meet, but yet I see their life. I've never met Mother Teresa didn't get to, never would have, but how she lived her life had an impact for me. That's water in. The third category are people that are water in. They're occasional. You meet them. It could be a sermon, you hear a talk or whatever, but they impact. And then the fourth category of water in are those relationships that are intentional and purposeful Mentors, pastors, coaches, therapists, and so critical, I believe to living an authentic life is making sure that you're living life with water in. And then there's water with.
Piet Van Waarde:Can I just like before you move on on that? Yeah. And then there's water with Can I just like before you move on on that? Yeah. So that fourth category of water in from people that are therapists, coaches, pastors, counselors, advisors the complexity of like, okay, I know I need that investment, but if I'm vulnerable they might not see me as worthy of it.
Kurt Andre:Or I might be terrified to be vulnerable they might not see me as worthy of it or I might be terrified to be vulnerable. I met with a therapist way before my life crashed because I was working too much and my wife was frustrated and arguably my life was out of control. And I remember going to her and she asked me so what model did you have as a dad growing up? So my dad was gone all the time. He was in military. I didn't have a model. And then she asked again well, kurt, what model did you have growing up as a father? I'm thinking that's not a very good therapist. I said I just said I didn't have a model. My dad was gone all the time. Third time, same question. Now I'm getting pissed.
Kurt Andre:You don't listen very well and then it clicked oh, I get it the model that I had for a father. I didn't have one, and my dad used the military. I was ministry, but at that point in therapy I wasn't willing to be vulnerable. I was terrified that if I told somebody who was in a position of water in what was going on, my life would be over, and so fear kept me from being vulnerable, even with people that I knew were trustworthy, that were kind, that had my best intention. Sadly for me, it took crisis. I mean, there are people that have found the courage to reach out and say I'm struggling, that's not my story. It took a crisis for me and then water with and using the biblical metaphor of Paul, the accountability, barnabas, the encouragement for me to live an authentic, transparent life, doing life with people that know my story and still love me create that safe place to allow these 15 men we all know our stories and yet love each other deeply.
Kurt Andre:But, still that's not transformational. There's water out, and water out is when I'm being used in the life of somebody else, even in the 12-step program, being a sponsor, if you're one who is a Christ follower, to disciple others, if you're an aunt or an uncle to mentor a nephew, or a sponsor, if you're one who is a Christ follower, to disciple others, if you're an aunt or an uncle to mentor a nephew or a niece. That water in water, with water out, finding the courage to be honest and risking and then prayerfully experiencing vulnerability and acceptance To me that's the authentic transformational life. Acceptance to me, that's the authentic transformational life. And shy of any one of those dynamics juxtaposed to the courage of being vulnerable, I don't know how else to do it.
Piet Van Waarde:I'm not sure I know the answer to this question, so this is sincerely something I'm curious about from you. So I've talked to people and, being a pastor over the years, I've talked to people who came to me and I knew something was going on, like we had explored to a certain degree some things and we were ready to go to another level, and they hit the pause button and they said I don't think I can talk about this, because the last time I tried to talk about this I was betrayed and I just like I used to think that that was like a rare occurrence, like that didn't happen very often, and then I thought it doesn't happen that often, in the church even less, let's say. But what I found is that that's actually not true. There's a lot of stories of betrayal in the culture at large and then, sadly, also in the church, and that keeps them from like I know I should. So I'd like you to speak, or I know I long to, but I'm terrified to.
Piet Van Waarde:Yeah, what would you say to the person who just has that as the major hurdle of getting the help they need? It's just like no, I've been betrayed by people who said they wanted help, right.
Kurt Andre:Yeah, again, great question. As I think about it, it's finding someplace safe. I mean, I'm surprised because I'm a coach. I don't do therapy. That's the basement of the world. That's healing. I'm in the space of strategy and yet when I'm working with a client, I'm always surprised how vulnerable they get or how much I learn about who they are. I used to think initially gosh, kurt, you're really good at what you do. I realized that's really not what's going on, that my role is not to be the hero in those relationships but to be the guide, and so to be a person who creates a safe space for others. If I'm that person who's afraid finding somebody who is safe and that's hard to find because there are people that present themselves to be that and then they're not and I don't know of a magic formula to find, because there are people that present themselves to be that and then they're not, and I don't know of a magic formula.
Kurt Andre:I know there are spaces. Again, I mentioned the recovery world. I know when I entered the recovery world 25 years ago, I found more acceptance, more authenticity, more vulnerability. It actually scared me the first time when. I went and just being surprised, and then people would share and go.
Kurt Andre:Hey, thanks for your support and I'm thinking I didn't do anything, because I just sat here and then I realized I am doing something, I'm listening to you, you're being seen, you have a witness in your life. We're in a small group right now and at its inception there was a commitment that, look, we've all done small groups before. You and I have been in small groups together. There's a lot of image managing in small groups and we just committed as couples we're going to start off being honest, and so we started off the way I describe it not bringing in our trophies, but just sharing our stories, and that really set a precedent. I think of creating authentic transparency because it's a safe place, and I think that, sadly, people might go through multiple relationships, multiple therapists, multiple coaches until you find that person.
Piet Van Waarde:Yeah, and I think there's two things that I found myself saying in our conversations. I may not use the same words, but I think you would kind of identify with it. One is that trust can be earned right. So in that setting where I was with that person who was like I've been betrayed before, I found myself saying you know what, that's okay If you can't go there with me now, that's fine.
Kurt Andre:I want to earn your trust, but to earn trust, you have to first overcome distrust, and that's true for everybody.
Piet Van Waarde:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So just giving people permission, like to say, if you need some more time to do that, awesome yeah, and I would call that pacing them, not pulling them into transparency, but creating a safe place and then allowing them.
Kurt Andre:It's like a flower that unfolds. You can peel that thing back. It's not going to bloom very well, but if you create that space, at least it's an invitation for them to. It doesn't always mean they're going to no right.
Piet Van Waarde:Secondly, I just encourage them to like sometimes, when we talk about, like, the work of the Holy Spirit and the discernment of the Spirit or the like, the identification that you have when there's a phrase that Paul used, my spirit identifies with your spirit. That I found really helpful to use in a very pragmatic way. It's to say you know, I just pay attention, just pay attention to that sense that you have. There are times when you can be with somebody and you just feel like I don't know what I want to say and I've found myself saying I'm paying attention to that. There's a part of it that could be an excuse like, oh, I don't want to share.
Piet Van Waarde:But at a deeper level, there's like this intuition that I think we have as a result of the work of the Holy Spirit, where, if we can pay attention to that, like in those hard places, and say, lord, is this somebody I can trust? And not that we're going to get that 100%, but I found that it's like helpful, maybe more as like a rejection, like this person is starting to feel like that other betrayal and I'm not sure I want to go there with them. Or conversely, you know what this person feels safe to me. I've experimented a little bit, I've shared a little bit. I think I can trust them. So doing it piecemeal and then trusting that guidance of the Holy Spirit, I think can be a real asset In those moments where you know you need somebody, you want to trust somebody, but this is what you can do to get there.
Kurt Andre:But you touched on something, pete, that you haven't used the words, but at least my observation of what just took place was the discipline of self-reflection that I really believe to be personally more intimate with yourself and therefore others professionally more effective. It's predicated on your ability to live a self-reflective life. Up until my life crash, I'd never live a self-reflective life. I live thin fast, not pausing, not taking time, because a non-self-reflective life is personally more shallow, professionally less effective. So in order to discern, you have to be quiet. In order to get a sense of, you need to put into your life. So one of my disciplines is to get up early, because I'm not bent that way.
Piet Van Waarde:I saw that this morning. I thought I got up early. You were up before me. Second cup of coffee.
Kurt Andre:But that's a learned behavior for me that I was encouraged by my mentor to journal. I was terrified of journaling. If I did what? If somebody read what I wrote? Getting into therapy, living in community with others, having it modeled for me, the living, a self-reflective life. Because, again, going back to Parker Palmer, paying attention to who we are In the training that I do of coaches and consultants, over and over again, I tell them you are your tool. It's not about a set of competencies. You'll learn them, but learning to listen to yourself is one of the things that, when I'm coaching somebody, I try to pay attention. What is it like for me to be on the other side of them? Because they probably make everybody else in their life feel the same way.
Kurt Andre:And then that gives me insight into how to come alongside them In some ways, let them know. Do you realize that you probably make people feel?
Piet Van Waarde:because this is how I feel You're like what?
Kurt Andre:And so cultivating the discipline of self-reflection so that you can be aware and therein finding discernment. There's a reason we're told in Psalm 46.10, be still. You can't know God if you're not still. And so, again, that was a learn, because being still was terrifying for me, because when I was still, I had to be confronted by the misalignment of my life, the fruit of my choices, the voices in my head, the past that I buried, and learning that. The voices in my head, the past that I buried, and learning that.
Kurt Andre:So I love that story in Star Wars where Luke goes to the Dagobah system and he's being mentored by Yoda, and that scene that everybody now seems to quote, from where Skywalker goes off. He goes into the cave, he's got his light sword and Yoda said that he doesn't need it. And there's Darth Vader. They duel right I'm quickly summarizing Decapitates Darth Vader, and we finally, as the Watchers of Star Wars, find out who Darth Vader is, pulls the mask back and it's Luke, and Yoda was helping him understand. To become a Jedi, to become the best version of who you are, you got to deal with your demons, you got to deal with yourself, and I don't think you can help others unless you've done that work either.
Piet Van Waarde:Yeah, and I don't think you can help others unless you've done that work either. Yeah, and I think you know I've had my own demons that I've had to process, and so one of the things that I've learned the you know the hard way, but still you know, thank God I've learned and am learning is that what starts out as this really fearful journey like what am I going to find out? Who am I going to become as a result? What is everybody else going to think? Becomes this thing where you're like you know what?
Piet Van Waarde:Yes, I'm the old band back when we were in ORE Jars of Clay. We are just jars of clay with our own little broken pieces, and yet God somehow takes pleasure in using that, and there's something so rich about being able to be authentically that. To say, not just from a theological or theoretical yeah, yeah, I'm kind of broken like everybody else, but to actually own that and say, yeah, no, I'm not proud of it, the decisions I've made, I'm not proud of all the things I've done, but God in his mercy has put some pieces back together and, as a result, I'm not proud of all the things I've done, but God in his mercy has put some pieces back together and, as a result, I'm able to be useful to his purpose and to other people.
Kurt Andre:Yeah, there's a metaphor that we miss in the English language in Timothy. When Paul's talking to Timothy, he tells him to be full of faith, which is a great concept, but the word picture that Paul uses is you are to be a pot without wax. It's been translated full of faith. And what I learned the joys of going to seminary right was that tinkers of the day would travel from town to town and they would sell their wares, and very often the pots that they sold would crack. So the unethical seller of those wares will get wax and some of the dust from the pot and fill in the cracks so that when you bought it it looked like it was without cracks. But then you pour water in it, you put it in the windowsill, the sun comes and the wax melts and the water falls out.
Kurt Andre:That Paul was trying to tell Timothy look, it's okay to have cracks, but don't be a pot with wax, don't pretend that you don't have brokenness, because we all have brokenness. And so for me, I thought I was only acceptable if I didn't have cracks. So what I did was I lived a life with wax covering up the cracks, and obviously that doesn't work, and so I think being okay with, not as an excuse, my character defects or my flaws. I mean steps five, six and seven identify them, share with them and then ask God to remove them. I mean I think that every Christian should go through 12 steps because it is the journey of transformation and so it's not so as Christians and for me. I was a pot with lots of wax and I think finding safe spaces to be a pot with cracks, without wax, and still be loved, has been really the transformational experience of love and acceptance and really becoming who God's called me to be.
Piet Van Waarde:I'll put an exclamation point. That is where we're going to end. That was awesome. Thank you, brother. I really appreciate you being here flying in all the way from.
Kurt Andre:Florida, Virginia, wherever you were from. We bounced around from a couple of different places.
Piet Van Waarde:Thank you for joining us. Thank you, pete, and thank you for joining us for another Sidewalk Conversation. So glad you were part of this and, again, if there's something that resonated with you that we talked about today, always feel free to send me a personal message and always feel free to share this with somebody who you think might be helped by it. Thank you for joining us and join us again next time for another Sidewalk Conversation.
