Sidewalk Conversations
"Let the one who thinks he stands, take heed lest he fall..." (1 Corinthians 10:12)
Standing strong and remaining true to your calling is no easy task. No one sets out to crash and burn. In fact, it's actually the opposite, most people want to stand strong, remain effective, and be true to their values all the way through to the end. But, it is really hard to do.
In these interviews, Piet Van Waarde (a 40 year veteran of pastoral ministry) has heart-to-heart conversations with ordinary people about what it takes to stay faithful and effective in the things that matter most.
Sidewalk Conversations
Fog Machines, Quantum Physics, and Jesus Walk Into a Podcast with Preston Jackson
A quiet, steady faith can be just as brave as a dramatic comeback. Preston Jackson recounts growing up in one church, choosing belief through honest doubt, and learning to hold tradition, mystery, and systems in one coherent life.
• growing up known in a single church community
• benefits of deep roots and the cost of being observed
• a chosen belief that led to a real encounter
• the college fork: physics abroad vs youth ministry here
• building systems that serve people and presence
• entrepreneurship, marketing, and creative logistics
• religion vs legalism and the value of tradition
• deconstruction as pruning, not demolition
• multiethnic, evolving expressions of the gospel
• essentials that remain and forms that can change
Please feel free to comment, like, share, and even disagree
Thank you to our amazing sponsor & the best place to play pickleball in Austin! Check them out today
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Welcome to another Sidewalk Conversations. My name is Pete Van Ward, and I'm your host. And we have another great guest joining us today. Back from season one. We went back when we were doing live broadcasts. And so excited to have him back, and I can't wait to introduce him to you. I would like to just introduce our conversation today by sharing a little bit about what it is that I find to be most impressive when it comes to the life of individuals who are trying to walk out their faith. And we can talk about a lot of things. We could talk about the love factor. We can talk about the fact that they are committed to truth. But one of the things for me that is most impressive is somebody who's been at it and stayed at it for a long time. You know, and the thing that happens often in Christian community is you have the great comeback story. So maybe a person started around the church, had their rebellious season, and then they come back and it's like the lost sheep that's been found and everybody's cheering. And I love those stories. It's actually my story. But what I actually find more impressive is those po folks who can say, you know what? I found the Lord early in life, and I didn't need to go to all these other places in order to decide that this is what I wanted to do. And my guest today is one of those guys. Like he's walked the walk from early on and he stayed on the path. It's not necessarily the story that gets the most applause, but in my mind, it's one of the ones that are most impressive because it takes a real courage to be able to say no to the things that the world is inviting us to do. And you save yourself a lot of grief when you stay faithful to the path. And so that's what I want to encourage those of you who are watching who, you know, you wonder, like, is my story important? Like, have I been okay? I don't have a great testimony, so to speak. And I just want to encourage you that this story, one of the reasons I want to tell this story is because it reminds me that there's something beautiful about staying strong from early on and persisting through. So that's what our guest has done. And I can't wait to hear have you hear his story. All right, well, I want to first of all say thank you to our sponsor today. Our sponsor this uh for this broadcast is Pickleball Kingdom. That's actually the place where we are doing the recording. The owner has uh graciously and generously made space available for this studio, and I just want to acknowledge his generosity and also promote the Pickleball Kingdom activity and facility. They have beautiful courts here. It's located in Pflugerville. And so if you are in the Austin area and you are looking to either you know play and learn or play and grow in your game, this is the place to do it. Pickleball Kingdom 1900 East Howard Lane. You gotta come and see it. It's a beautiful space with great courts and a great community. So thank you, Jared, for your sponsorship. And if you're looking to check out Pickleball, this would be the place to do it. All right. Well, without any further ado, let me introduce you to my guest, Preston Jackson. Woo! We're gonna give you a little like a laugh track, not laugh track, cheer track button. Preston, uh, you might recognize the name because he's usually the guy on the other side of the camera. He's the one that kind of makes everything look good and sound good. And I've kind of been on his case a little bit for the last, I don't know, last season or so to say, hey, it's time for you to come back. We gotta, we gotta do another interview. And uh and so he's agreed to to do that with me. Thank you. Yeah, yeah.
Preston Jackson:Because you've been desperate. So yeah.
Piet Van Waadre:We're like running out of yes. There's no one, yeah. Preston's. Everyone's starting to say no. I don't know what that's about. Yeah, I have to be like, I want to give Preston a compliment because not only is he doing the podcast, which is not necessarily his, you know, most uh comfortable place, um, but he's actually wearing a really cool shirt. Oh, okay. Yes. He's he's trying to impress the hosts with his Amsterdam shirt.
Preston Jackson:I can't, you know, normally I'm back there with my my fabletics and my raggedy t-shirt. Had it look a little nicer today.
Piet Van Waadre:You're looking very sharp, brother. All right. Well, um, as I was saying in the intro, one of the things I um respect about you of many things is that you know you have been uh a person who was raised around the church from very early on. Um you and my niece, uh Danielle, I think, were like buddies back growing up.
Preston Jackson:No, no, not so much growing up. Really? No. Well, because she's a few years older than me. Oh, okay. You know, she didn't want to have anything to do with me. Oh, early on. Then you became cool and yeah, yeah. Later when we did when we were doing Celib Recovery together, and you know, after we were both done being teenagers kind of deal.
Piet Van Waadre:Okay. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Well, you did grow up around the church. I do know that much. And uh and your family is all very active on the church.
Preston Jackson:Yeah, enough that I called you Uncle Pete for the longest time until I finally met you. Yeah. But no, my family has been there. Uh uh, because my mom I was um six months old when my parents started attending Shoreline. And so then so 26 years later, they're still there. And you're still there. We've worked there. I've spent yep, did my time on staff. Almost all of my I've got, you know, all my five siblings and us, and both my parents, all of us have almost been on staff at some point at Shoreline. That's so cool. You know, I think we've got one more to technically. My brother, uh you know, he'll he'll find something in the next few years. He's just getting to he's only he's only 15. So well, he'll find his way. Technically, and now he can do it.
Piet Van Waadre:All right. So let's let's uh lean into that a little bit. I I know on our last podcast, which was a live podcast, so we don't have any record of it anymore. And thank the Lord.
Preston Jackson:I was right out of COVID. I, you know, I was like, if I can't do anything, I'm not gonna go get a haircut. So I had a year's worth of hair. It was my beer, I didn't cut my beard because my hair was growing. I my mother was absolutely horrified. So as long as that footage never surfaces, we'll be fine.
Piet Van Waadre:Okay, so tell me a little bit, like you know, some some would say that that was a good thing that you were raised around the church. I certainly see it as something that you know served you well. Um, but there's also the downside. So let's deal with both of those things. Like what when you look back at being raised at the same church, kind of going to the same church, being on staff at the church for a while, like what are some of the the benefits of that experience? And then maybe what are some of the things that kind of you would go, well, it wasn't all great.
Preston Jackson:Well, like, you know, I guess like right off the bat, like being you know, my dad was on staff um and they key volunteer before that, and like so he was very involved for probably a decade. Um, and he and my mom too was you know, she's volunteering and she was like a preschool coordinator, and she was she, you know, very active in the kids' ministry. And so people over there knew her, but then my but she's quiet and reserved. My dad is um very outgoing and very uh extroverted and talking to every single person. So it's like growing up, it's you know, oh, you're one of the Jacksons or you're Anthony's kid. So and everybody knows who Anthony is, so everybody knows who you are. And so like I didn't necessarily grow up a pastor's kid, but I did grow up kind of in that same vein of I can't go anywhere in the church without somebody knowing me, somebody, you know, always worried about getting report, you know, a report getting back to my parents about what I was doing, or um, and some and that had some interesting, you know, um gave me some interesting, like self made me self-conscious in some ways about my spiritual development.
Piet Van Waadre:Okay, which is interesting.
Preston Jackson:But yeah um that kind of came later. But I mean like the benefits I you know being a part of a church for so long, um, even today, like the connections I have with people, like a lot of my the business that I'm doing now, like I know it's people I've met at Shoreline or I've known forever, working with um, you know, got you know, I'm working with the man who was my kids' pastor, kind of like he ran he did Sunday school for you know, I think six years of my life, and like now I'm working with him as a colleague, and that's interesting. And so like the it's been longer I've done been a part of it, the more I like have these connections with people and um you know, like a community that I just I also notice that other people don't have in like yeah, that kind of way, right? And also just being like entrenched somewhere for so long, even the new people, you know. Um, because like you said, I we used to work I was working at Shoreline up until a couple years ago, but even now, like the new staff hires all know who Preston is because you know they're that it's the legend lives on, and like I'm so I'm still there, and they're like, oh yeah, and they're like, Oh, this is Preston, I've been hearing so much about you. And I'm like, it's been two years. What are they still talking about? It's gotta be negative. All right. So is there a downside like when you think about it? I mean, I think you know, uh you give me a lot of credit for uh my faith walk, and I don't but I don't necessarily even think about it the way you you perceive it, because um, you know, I am not, you know, I'm staunchly not an evangelical, you know this about me. And um I try to walk back that part of my past. And but and so like in from that perspective too, I got some experiences. Um, like my um my great-grandmother has been serving at a church for a long time, she plays the organ, and it's a um first Christian church. And so like I got to have some experiences in the first Christian church growing up, like Christmas or like when we were out of town on a Sunday. Yeah, yeah. But like the biggest thing about being in one church is this the only is experiencing that, like for me, I think big drawback is only experiencing that tradition. Right. Um and having to intentionally seek out other traditions. And even at this point, my understanding of other Christian traditions is more academic and observational. And like, you know, I've you know, I don't have a lot I've never sat in uh Presbyterian service or, you know, gotten to experience, you know, what some of these other denominations have in a way that I think, you know, I might love to color out the side lines, and I have a big passion of mine right now is the different uh is like understanding the impact that tradition has. Um and like I guess partly growing up in the more modern evangelical tradition is that there are no traditions. And so it's something that you know I've had to try, I'm working through and working on reclaiming in my own spiritual walk, you know, having what are my spiritual traditions and or what traditions do I want, and then just even understanding like why I think because I think too a lot of the problem in the modern church is that there are no traditions, you know, there are or the tr we have there are traditions, but you know, people don't acknowledge them as such. They all they want to tear down all the traditions. Yeah, like I'm not traditional. No, right, but then you that that thing that you do that's not traditional is now your tradition, right? Yeah, but there's just something so important to tradition in spiritual formation and the passing of salvation from generation to generation, right?
Piet Van Waadre:Yeah, yeah. So what like I I want to explore, uh and I appreciate you saying or clarifying that, hey, look, I I I still am in my own discovery process. I didn't necessarily stay like rigid in the way that you some people might think. Um and so you have you've had your own like questions and dis deconstruction of certain ideas and and kind of rebuilding. Um but essentially I at least from an observational standpoint, you have essentially stayed within the path. Um I mean you're still looking to Jesus, you're still like uh worshiping him. Um you didn't you didn't go into super rebellion.
Preston Jackson:I didn't say no Jesus for the sake of not because I had to. That's true.
Piet Van Waadre:So what what what do you attribute that to?
Preston Jackson:Like what what enabled you to stay relatively within the the well uh because I mean like since I was 16, I have never had a doubt that Jesus exists and that he's somebody worth following. Um but that was also the culmination of its own spiritual walk. Like I think um I think when I was like 12 is when I kind of like can start to like in my memory pinpoint things, but like that's when I was like, do I believe in this Jesus thing? Um, why do I go to church every Sunday? Do I agree with my parents? Do I hold their religious beliefs? What are religious beliefs? Um, right? Yeah, I think it's and that's a really natural thing. You've always been like this philosophic deep thinker. I can't say I was that deep, but like back then. But I know I can, you know, I also know now it's really normal. I mean, I you know, uh like last time I was on, we just talked about youth ministry because that's what I did for so long. Um and like doing youth ministry, understanding like the developmental stages, and like now I can look back and I'm like, okay, that's completely normal developmental. Like I'm, you know, rebelling against I'm you know, in my own way, looking reevaluating everything I believe about life. And that's that's you know, the thing, right? That's what everybody does. And but even in that, like I was like, okay, do I want to believe? Do I not want to believe? I'm always I have always been very analytical and philosophical and scientific. Um, I was gonna go and be a scientist, and that's what I wanted to do from a very young age. Um, my mom still talks about the time that I tried to turn her car or try to figure out how to make her car run on hydroelectric power when I was like six. And so um, like that also played a factor because I was like, you know, I've I've always, you know, always hearing the anti intellectual or anti-scientific bias in the church as well. Like, you know, like you're even from the other side, like uh the science, you know, the intellectual side of like, oh, religion does, you know, the typical kind of like religion isn't real, we've got science. Um, and so, you know, in living in that, and so hearing those arguments and taking them in and then evaluating for myself. But um, it started when I was like, you know, probably you know, um 12, 13. Um, and in that process, you know, I kind of made a decision really young. Um, it was I mean, it was tough. I I went through times where I didn't believe, times where I did believe. Also, it didn't really matter if I believed or not, because you know, why? If it if there's no God, then it doesn't matter at all, so why am I struggling? Um and then um I made a decision at one point, I don't remember how old I was. I was probably 14 or 15, and I was like, you know what? Um of everything I know, I'm just gonna believe. Um because this seems, you know, this seems like the best course of action and a little bit to hedge my bet. Just in case just in case, and like, you know, if God is real, then at some point I'll find him and I'm gonna choose to believe until then. And so it was a really conscious choice to like every day just choose to believe. Um that culminated into an experience um a couple of years later when I was 16, where I found myself meeting Jesus, and from that day on I've never had a doubt. Um and so I can't, you know, well, I mean, it was this I can't his classic summer camp moment. Um, I've been, you know, choosing to believe, waiting, and I was praying, and I was like, you know, everybody talks about the Holy Spirit and feeling God, and like I've never felt that, and I want to experience that, and I God, I want to feel your spirit, and I want to, you know, I want to feel the presence of the Holy Spirit. And I that through that summer camp, there was a couple of you know, each night something different happened, and I went through um I experience and I even through that I, you know, look back on it, like I experienced kind of three different aspects of God in that until you know the la I think I almost the last night or whatever, but I remember um part so back to the everybody knows who my dad is, and my dad also did youth camp for years and years and years and years and years, and I made him keep doing youth camp when I was in youth ministry. And so even like in especially in the youth ministry, everybody knows who Anthony Jackson is, and my leaders knew who he was, and like so, like it's like it was a hard thing for me to explore uh my more spiritual side and like doing things that I felt like might get reported back. Right. You can't I can't be expressive in worship because I don't want to talk to my dad about that. You know, I want to be my own thing, you know. Being a child of six to, you know, I don't I want my own thing. Um I don't want to, you know, I don't want a lot of attention brought on me either, because you know, and so that was a barrier, and there were several times when I'd be like in and I would be in worship and I'd be like, I have a feeling like I should do something, I should take some action, and I'd be like, No, I can't do that, you know. What if somebody notices? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um and so this that that summer camp I was finally like, you know what, I don't care. And from that, in that moment when I kind of surrendered, I had, you know, like a throne room kind of moment, and I saw God and saw Jesus and had a really powerful encounter with that. I was like, well, you know, now nobody can tell me God doesn't exist because I've seen him. Yeah. And love that.
Piet Van Waadre:Yeah. Now you later, um, in fact, this was I I I think it was close to when I first came on staff. You m you made another decision um where you were basically given an opportunity to go to a very prestigious school. Well, because it the the this the academic standards were really high. And and you uh I maybe I'm speaking too glowingly of it, but you passed with flying colors.
Preston Jackson:I mean you were I did get in. I'd actually coincided with that. No, okay, it was it was uh with the summer camp. And then a different summer camp, because then I had a different issue of like um and something I've completely unworked since, but you know, and thinking, you know, that I'm you know looking for God's one exact plan for my life. Um, which and like he's got something figured out already. But I don't have to get into that. But um so that was a tough thing because I wasn't just like praying because I was I graduate it was I think it was a couple years before you got there because I was it was when I graduated col high school, I was looking to go to college. UTU was my first choice, I didn't get in. Um I didn't want to go to the my the CAP program, so I only I only applied to two schools, one in Texas and then one in the UK. And I got and the UK has a later start date, later admission. So I hadn't, you know, school, I had been graduated for a couple months before I finally got my acceptance letter. And so I got that one like the week before summer camp. So I went into summer camp having been accepted to college, but still like, you know, God, is this what you want me to do? Like kind of stuck in a decision paralysis, but like also just like waiting on God. And I got some really good advice um from someone right before I went to summer camp. And they're like, sometimes God tells you what to do, and then sometimes God leaves it up to you, and it's your decision to make. And I was wrestling with that idea, and I also in that moment, I heard, you know, I had a really clear hearing God say, like, whichever direction you want to go, I'm gonna go in with you. And so it's also at that so I did get in, and then I was doing that, but also at that time I had started doing celibate recovery with Danielle and we were doing the landing, and um, I was working with middle schoolers and I was you know a senior, but um my my heart really broke for them when I was work I just I was doing childcare at the time, really. Even I we were doing celibate recovery, but I was like the child care employee. That's how I was making money. Um, but we were doing the lessons and I would sit with them and we talked about their lives and we would talk about their struggles, and you know, it was just like you know, my love for them and then the like the life that they had to lead, and also, you know, I just was like, I want to do this, I want to sit with students and talk to them about their life and help them figure out how to so you put it you put that other thing all on the side. So I said, you know, I was like, God, I want to do this, and I was like, I'm gonna follow, I want to go this direction and kind of oh, go where my heart leads. Because I did, I do, you know, it was it was a hard decision because I also love school. Yeah, I love academia, and someday I'm still gonna finish my degree. But um, I was going, I had gotten accepted into an honors physics program, and I was, you know, because my my goal was um to study uh quantum mechanics and get my PhD. So like there was like this whole different track of life, basically, to go to the UK and study abroad and um get my degree, get my undergrad, get my graduate degree, do my PhD. Probably would have ended up like a coder or something, you know, because that's really all physics degrees are good for these days, but maybe work on a really cool project. And so, like, there was or become a professor. I did one that's something I did want to do too. So get um, so like, yeah, that was our whole track one direction, and who knows if you know, who knows what would have happened in that direction too.
Piet Van Waadre:But then there was this whole other track of like doing ministry and like and I and I think the reason I it stuck with me so much was because you know people talk about um like I want to do, I want to touch people's lives, I want to do and and I I love it. I think that's an awesome aspiration. But there's also in your situation, I thought, well, for him, it was like a real real either or choice. Like you could have been successful at this other thing. And um, you know, not everybody has those opportunities. And so the fact that you said, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna put that on pause, not to say that you might, yeah, I mean you may still do it someday. But the fact that you said, I I I I love these kids, I want to do ministry, I'm willing to lay that down. I just thought it was so so cool, so impressive.
Preston Jackson:Loved it. Yeah.
Piet Van Waadre:Nice.
Preston Jackson:It was not the most selfless choice. It was something that, you know, it was it was an easy decision to make because that's something I loved and wanted to do. And you know, I wasn't like it wasn't all pious and like I'm gonna I'm gonna put aside my cares and my desires for the work of the gospel.
Piet Van Waadre:It was uh Oh yes, it was. That's the that's the image I'm holding on to.
Preston Jackson:It was I love this is where I want to be right now.
Piet Van Waadre:Uh well I I think there's something to that too. You know, I think the Lord does like I love how you said it. I think the Lord does uh often give us the opportunity to say, well, is this what you're excited about? Like, do you love this? Because I'll go with you. Yeah. I mean, unless it's like evil.
Preston Jackson:You know, we talk about walking that back. I am more and I'm more embracing of that idea now that like even before, you know, we don't as it's going down a rabbit hole, but even before like where does God want us to be, I more believe that wherever we go, yeah, I have a deeper understanding of that idea of wherever we go, God is with us. And a primary belief in that, like, yeah, first he's with us and then he'll make it work. And then if we're willing to listen, he'll guide us to places that he has designs or that are good for us, right? Yeah. But there's like uh I think you know, we we make it too much either or in my opinion. You know, if you go off on the wild side, God's still with you. Amen. Right? Yeah, he is.
Piet Van Waadre:That's what that's all about. Um all right, so let's uh you what are you doing now? Like you're you're like entrepreneuring now, you you you gotta you help me and help me.
Preston Jackson:I'm still working on explaining that to people and trying to get it down to my like 60 second small talk. Uh-huh. Uh, because there's so many things I'm doing. I've been working on the podcast with you, been um doing you know my own consulting work and like marketing. That's a weird shift that I never expected when you know, talk about like directions life could have gone, you know, when I was 18, I would never have imagined that I would be um doing marketing, um, or much less like running and kind of uh, you know, a two-man agency and doing consulting work with people. Um, you know, because like I've got clients who are, you know, across I've got clients across across the globe, and I'm like working with people in all their places, and I'm like, what do I know about running an in? Uh but here I am advising people on how to like do their marketing. Why who I would never have guessed it. So like you know, I do marketing consulting, and then um, you know, I've c recently had an opportunity to start another company, a tech company, and we're working on um with you know, we we're kind of like uh see this is where it gets complicated, and I guess in one minute, we're a uh we're a vendor of my company's a vendor of products, and so we're working with a couple of we're working on getting a couple products launched and um into our retail network because I have a couple of a part I have a couple partners who hire like an extensive network, and that's also, you know, that's another thing that's kind of a culmination of my time at Shoreline Um and my relationships there. But like um, so you know, I've got several different things going. I've got another, um, I s you know, there's another startup I've been working with as well, doing marketing with um that's kind of you know, still waiting to get its feet under it, and so and that's a completely different world. And I, you know, I was working on a docuseries this summer and still working on closing out that project and you know, just kind of doing a little bit of everything, partly to make money, partly to do you see like a common thread between them all that kind of bring them together for you?
Piet Van Waadre:Um like what makes them attractive for you? What makes them attractive for me?
Preston Jackson:Um I just you know, I like I like new things. I'm always been a person who likes change. I like to change things regularly. I don't like things to say the same. Um I loved when we would get new desk assignments at school because I liked to move and be in a different part of the room. Um I hated classrooms where we were in the same place the whole year. Um and like that's just who I am. And so part of it is the novelty of it and getting to work on new projects and getting to do new different different things. Like the film project was new, and I have some experience. You know, I've got experience doing film stuff. I mean, I that's what I do for you. And I did that shoreline too, but like it's just undertaking a documentary. I've never done that. Um, and but also like I also like um I also just you know really enjoy business in a way that I didn't know I did, you know, 10 years ago. Yeah, yeah. Um, and I like putting them together and like organizing them, and I love spreadsheets and I like doing budget projections.
Piet Van Waadre:You did keep us like I remember at Shoreline, you were like the master of schedules and processes and systems.
Preston Jackson:I love processes and systems and logistics. It's yeah that I knew I I learned I was really good at from an early age. I because did you know I you probably don't know this? I when I was 12, I was coordinating VBS at Shoreline. Um I was like the assistant coordinator at that time. There was like me and then the adult who would be the the actual enforcer, but like I was planning everything, doing routes and schedules, and like I so I didn't like I that's you know something I learned at a really young age, it's something I'm good at um and I like to do and like is you know, getting to work with startups like this too is something you know, there's a lot to figure out logistically, and you know, making it's a puzzle, it's fun, I enjoy it a lot.
Piet Van Waadre:You're good at it, you really are good at it. So um now as you look out, like I'm I I love you know talking to people who are in different seasons of life than I am. And so you you you know, you're a young guy, you're still looking at a lot of your life ahead of you. Um when you think about what's happening in the church and and you know what it looks like for the this quote unquote next generation, what are some of the things that you're like excited about, you're optimistic about, and then maybe some of the things that you're like, uh I don't know.
Preston Jackson:Oh man, how controversial do you want me to go, Pete? You know, because uh we can go there. The things that excite me, uh I mean, I think the American church has been stuck for a really long time. And you know, I'm anti-evangelical in all many ways, and so there's a lot of things I think that we've been doing in the last 50 years that are not um advantageous for the gospel. Um and part, but like this question has this question is one that sent me down this like discovery and learning about traditions and trying to understand too, like um, and one of the things I'm unraveling from my past is like this idea of the right way to worship or the right way to spread the gospel, or what's the the real church? I you know, we hear that I think we hear we're hearing a lot that of that in 2025. But what's the real church, you know, or whether it's the Protestants or like Catholics don't know what they're talking about, or Catholics who are like Protestants know what they're talking about, or whatever. Um, and so like even to that question, and trying to peel apart theologically and philosophically and experientially, like, what is church and like why does church? church and what is the gospel and why does the gospel and how do people spread it and w what why is it is it the same or is it different than it was 2000 years ago and should we be doing church like they you know there's a rule there was this kind of call to let's do church like the apostles did it and like is that you know I was like that sounds like a lot a good goal but then I like sat with it and I was like should we do church that way? Like is there a reason? Is there a is it bad that we do church the way we do church? And I say I'm anti-evangelical and but I do like the way we do church. You know I it's what I grew up in I enjoy it. I'm not like turn down the lights and get get that fog machine out of there. I think there's space for it.
Piet Van Waadre:And um and so like now when you say anti-evangelical for those who may not be familiar with the term because I think I I we've we've had enough conversations about it or I think I know where you're headed with that but just like unpack that a little bit. What what what do you mean by that?
Preston Jackson:Like the event you there's so much to unpack there but just like the uh you know the general evangelical doctrine and the evangelical you know there's the evangelical church which kind of arose in the last 70 years um the modern evangelical movement right there's been there's deeper roots to it but it's kind of amalgamation of the Baptist tradition and the uh Pentecostal tradition with its charismatic charismatic elements and it's also it's got its deep dogmatic and doctrinal elements too and this kind of more modern and it's the root of this non-denominational movement too right and that was started with like Billy Graham and you know goes forth in today and you know the biggest churches in America today are all non-denominationals right and so this I this kind of non non-movement but there's just there's some key um beyond the there's some key dogmas I would call them beyond doctrine not doctrines because there's some sh there's definitely there's separate this is a deep conversation deep but separating you know the levels of doctrine but I would I'll I'll call these doctrines dogmas separating out the there's some certain specific dogmas to the evangelical belief and um there are some also some certain practices like the anti-practice practice of tearing down tradition and being like we don't need to do it that way or just because or because it is an entrenched position like um you know it's that somehow it's wrong like it's too rigid and too religious. And you know I've heard that um a lot in my life about you know being anti-religious. You know we're we f I'm it I would I'm a Jesus follower but I'm anti-religious and I one point in my life I would have I associated with that idea like you know it's it's a relationship right it's that t-shirt relationship over religion. But now I'm definitely thinking I lean more religion in my ideas and I think that there's a there's a strong place for religion.
Piet Van Waadre:And so like even being part of my anti-evangelical is rejecting that idea that religion is a bad thing or like there's that there is that there you know I don't like um what's the word what's the word I don't like come on Pete you preach this before you know what I'm talking about I don't like the the what's the rigid the the the dog uh the the legalism I don't love legalism yeah but I do like structured religious religion and tradition well and the reason I'm I'm kind of pressing you on it because on one hand you are a like systems process guy that you appreciate order and you appreciate like clarity but on the other hand you I I when I hear you talk about you're like but I also love mystery and I think we don't have enough appreciation for mystery or we don't have enough appreciation for history and I feel like we haven't even touched on that conversation.
Preston Jackson:So it's kind of like an interesting mix that you have of that and and and that's why I've asked you to it's not it's not controversial to me because I feel like you're you're like you you found a way to integrate it all but I I've walked back those things yeah and like it is I do agree it's interesting because um especially with you know the church tradition I was raised in is and you know but then also like I am very rigid in my thinking but at the same time like my earliest religious experiences my my transformative moment my spiritual moments are steeped in that mystery and that mysticism of like how can I be standing in this room it as in a like in the middle of the forest in South Texas but I'm also standing you know next to Jesus and like you know these things that I you know these weird moments in my life and it's lear it's learned too and I think is what I'm trying to say and like um it's something I've had to evaluate because I've also had some other really interesting moments um just you know with God and in weird places like well not so weird it's pretty like I guess um pretty cliche I was standing on the top of a hill in Ireland and I had a vision and of what God was doing and like and that's a weird mystical moment right um and so like you know having to reconcile having weird mystical moments but also being very you know um scientific in my own approach to life and like anal and not analyzing and so having to figuring out how to like make those things work inside myself has been a challenge. But it's also I think it does it has produced something weird.
Piet Van Waadre:I love it. I think it's beautiful and I appreciate the way that you're so thoughtful about these matters and that that you really have carved out a path for you that uh as I have encountered you very authentic. You know it's just like this is like I'm not necessarily trying to fit into any box and I'm not really trying to make anybody happy. Not that I'm trying to be you know purposefully offensive either. It's just like I'm trying to I'm trying to figure it out and I'm trying to be authentic about what I know and believe. And um and it's one of the reasons I feel like uh you know you have something to say to this generation.
Preston Jackson:Okay. Where do we because we went off track there. So that's what I told you at the beginning we can do that. Yeah you did you took me we went and we had I had explained some anti-evangelicism we're talking about the future of the church. No I think I'm you know this was going to be controversial. I think that in some ways the church is um imploding and I think that's a good thing. Um the modern church I think the the American church while I have been examining you know different ways of understanding what church is but I think that there is some collapse to the way we do church and to those to the non-existent traditions. And maybe that's what's part of the problem is there are no traditions to hold to and that's caught that's creating some collapse. But then you know COVID definitely helped do it um and the political climate is definitely helping do it or at least pull people apart and pulling the church apart. And I think that that while is a painful thing and it's causing a lot of strife and it's gonna cause a lot of hurt to people I think it's also a good thing in that it's causing people to re-examine their beliefs and you know because I'm just I'm also just one piece of this whole deconstruction movement that kind of began even right around the same time I was like you know you know the reason I am the way I am today is because I started reading the Bible and understanding it. And I learned how to read my Bible and it caused me to to um re-examine lots of things that I had thought I knew about life and about the Bible and understand the Bible and also trying to like reconcile parts of the Bible that I've read with my understanding of who God is. And so like all of those things like I or just have been working and doing things and I think that that is I think that's something that's really good for the church. The American church the global church to think about doing things differently because I think that the church I think in the history of the church too the worst times for the church has been when it's been very staunchly too staunchly in its traditions right too too entrenched it does not seem like we go back before I gave a um I gave a sermon at a youth camp one time and I was probably really informed by this topic but about the balance of spirit and truth and about the balance of the mystical and the balance of the knowing and the the present reality and like finding that you know walking in the middle line and that's where the church needs to be right it needs to be it's not too charismatic it's not too dogmatic it's not too it's not too apart from the world it's not I hate that's a bad one because I don't even believe that there's no such thing as too close to the world because we are the we are entrenched in it and we should be and like that's one of my thoughts too is like I think that we when the church gets stuck in these places where people think they know what it should be and I think that the gospel itself is this living breathing thing spirit that goes forth and it in itself it this is a controversial idea. Some people might take offense um but that the gospel it's so far the gospel itself the because like the gospel comes in and creates transformation within people right and it changes who we are but I think that also in the same way that the gospel changes us um and takes away some of the worst parts of you know smooth out the worst parts of our edges um we change the gospel and I think that's even more true on like because you know the Bible doesn't say you a lot it says y'all a lot right it's a community driven thing and like in the community sense like the like the gospel comes in and transforms culture and nation and groups of people and it changes them from what they were into something different. But it doesn't completely take it isn't like a it's not a force that removes who those people were right it's not like you know there's this there was this movement I know from the 90s and the 2000s of like this like everyone should like if the whole like the preaching preachers would be like if everybody followed Jesus we would be all the same and it would be like and like there's a certain way to have culture and there's a certain way to live your life and there's a certain way to do things and the gospel brings about this monoethnic culture thing. And I don't believe that I think that the I think that there's the Bible clearly paints a picture of a multi-ethnic multicultural amalgamation of people coming to the temple of God and then and in the same way that by the gospel comes in changes a group of people but is also changed by who those people are and when it goes forth again to the next group of people it is inherently different in some ways. And then it goes forth and like the church in itself is ever evolving in this idea of what the gospel does and how the people who last held the gospel took it forward because I think it also isn't something that exists independently of who we are. It's something that we hand to each other and you know we accept the salvation together right it's a you know these things about me but you know it's something that we all have to do together.
Piet Van Waadre:Well and I think what part of what I think you're touching on is the tension of like there are certain things about the faith that remain consistent and then there are certain things that are always involving like the Lord you know prophet said I'm I'm doing a new thing which he's he's always doing a new thing. So it's it's that figuring out like what's the essential like what do I need to continue holding on to regardless of what happens in the culture. And then what what where is there room for creativity? Where's there room for a new expression? And that's and you know we s we can talk about it philosophically but in practice that's really hard to sort out and uh but I think we have to hold the tension for sure.
Preston Jackson:And I think it's in that I think there's a there's a looseness that we I think there's a looseness we should approach it with like we shouldn't be too rigid in those things. And I know there's and but this that's that rigid that's that rigidity in those things that doesn't allow the gospel to do those things and at some point that thing breaks and we it's historically we see it happen and something new comes out of it. And because the gospel isn't stopped right God doesn't stop moving and then there is salvation to a new group of people and it looks different afterwards. And sometimes we chase after that and we probably should be chasing something that looks completely different than what happened before. Because you know God did say I'm gonna do a new thing.
Piet Van Waadre:Well uh I have loved this conversation thank you for being willing to move on the other side of the camera and philosophize with me for a bit. It's great to have you as a guest and I want to say thank you to you all for joining us for this conversation. And we are going to like give like there is a lot of things that we talked about today that we want to give you an opportunity to interact with as well. And so if there are questions that come up as a result of what you've seen and heard we'd love to interact with that. And so we always try and leave those uh opportunities in the notes uh so wherever you're seeing this please feel free to comment like share and uh and and even disagree like that's okay too so thank you for joining us and we hope to see you next week for another sidewalk conversation
