Sidewalk Conversations

If Unity Is the Goal, Is Worship the Way? with Joel Salabarria

• Piet Van Waarde • Season 4 • Episode 9

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Worship can be the shared language that mends divides when we move from a multi-ethnic crowd to a truly multicultural experience shaped by real people and real stories. Joel Salabarria joins us to unpack relationship-first leadership, Worship Society, and how unity grows when we stop policing styles and start practicing cultural humility.

• redefining worship as a whole-life response
• sponsor spotlight on Tenfold Counseling
• Joelle’s tour with Girls Gone Bible and mentoring role
• the vision and structure of The Worship Society
• relationship before accountability for creatives
• Flow Nights: unscripted, Spirit-led gatherings and testimonies
• multi-ethnic vs multicultural: why the difference matters
• designing from parking lot to altar with cultural humility
• style wars, ego, and measuring response the right way
• worship as a bonding agent for a divided culture
• prayer for unity, wisdom, and courage

Check out Worship Society. If you want to be in production, hospitality, greeting, setup teardown, you know, the doors are open.

Send us a text

Tenfold Counseling | Kansas City
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Piet Van Waarde:

Welcome to another Sidewalk Conversation. My name is Pete Van Wart. I'm your host today. And I want to start our conversation by asking you to consider a question. And that is, what is the first thing that comes to mind when you hear the word worship? Now I'll tell you that answer for me would be depends on when you ask me. Like when I grew up and I heard the word, oh, it's time for us to go to worship, there was nothing inside of me that says, oh, I'm looking forward to that. In fact, it was the part of the week that I dreaded the most. We called it a worship service, but it was nothing that elicited a response of love or joy or or meaning. It just was the longest hour of the week for me. Which was such a um a sad thing, really, because once I came to know the Lord, I realized that worship is meant to be the most beautiful part of life. And it's actually a very broad part of life. In fact, if you read the scriptures, you'll find that everything we do can be an act of worship. But there is this season or this time where we get a chance to gather together as a community and express our worship to God. Now, the reason that this has been on my heart a lot these days is because I've been finding myself wondering what is it that can join or bring Christians together in light of so many things that are happening in our culture that tear us apart. So whether we're talking about the politics, whether we're talking about ethnicity, whether we're talking about worship style, there's like all these conversations that happen, and then they say people who say, Well, if you're part of that camp, then I can have nothing to do with you. What bridges that gap? And my contention is that it has to do something with worship. And that's why I'm so excited about my guest today, because he's one of my favorite worship leaders. We've had a chance to work together in various settings, and I just love his heart for God. I love his heart for worship. And I think after our conversation today, you'll love him in a greater degree as well, if you don't already. So I'm excited to introduce him to you and thank you for joining us. Before we begin, and I introduce my guests, I want to say a thank you to our sponsor. Our sponsor today is uh the Counseling Center in Kansas City, Tenfold Counseling. These folks have been supporters of this work from the very beginning. And one of the things that I think has motivated them to be part of supporting the Van Board Foundation and all the work that we do through it is because they understand at a very core level that people need resources and tools to work through the issues and challenges of life. And so, therefore, I just want to again support them and the work that they're doing. They do work out of obviously out of Kansas City, but they also do things online and via video. And so, if there's a part of your life where you need some expertise, some support, some advice, some counseling, they are a full service operation. They do marriage counseling, they work with teens, they have all kinds of resources. So tenfold counseling. We'll put the link down in the notes below, but I encourage you to check them out if that's something that you or your family member needs. All right, now without any further delay, I want to introduce my guest this week. He's back all the way from season one, Joelle Salabaria. Hey, let's go. Love it. Glad to be here. Oh man, I'm so glad to have you. You know, we were always already getting into it before we started recording. I'm like, hey, no, save your save your best. Man, something about good conversation. Yeah, it is. All right. Well, uh, for those who, you know, may have seen you in our first season, uh, that that was, I think, three or four years ago now. Uh, you've been doing some things. Yes, and so just bring us up to speed on uh kind of what's been keeping you busy. You have a new kid. I mean, come on.

Joel Salabarria:

Yeah, we had a we had a baby born July 4th. Oh, wow. This year. All right. Um, she was about a month early because of some complications, but when I tell you everything happened the way it was supposed to happen, God was all over that thing. That and by that thing I mean the the ex the circumstances and the experience. She's perfect, she's she's loud and full of life and bossy and all the all the things you need. She commands the room and the house. Um, but I'm madly in love with her. Um I I love being able to um see her every day. Um but yeah, we uh, you know, the kids are older now, they're both in the same school. Um and I'm traveling a lot more now. Uh still on tour with Girls Gone Bible.

Piet Van Waarde:

Um that's a new thing though, right? Yeah. Relatively like Oh, right.

Joel Salabarria:

Yeah, that was after Yeah, so that started last year. So it's been a little over a year now that I've been traveling with them, and um, that's been a cool journey just to be. Because you've been like, if I remember right, you've been kind of mentoring them as well. Like Yeah, so yeah, I've I've act um I kind of play the role of like a big brother mentoring behind the scenes um in their ministry walk outside of the podcast. Um so I don't really mentor on the pat podcast side. They're they're they got that in spades, but um walking the walk, you know, on the ministry side, I've been able to partner along with them and and be a big brother. That's awesome. Yeah, it's been really cool to walk the journey with them.

Piet Van Waarde:

And that's kind of blown up too, that whole thing.

Joel Salabarria:

Yeah, yeah, they're they're amazing. And they're I think the world has yet to see the fullness of how God wants to use both of them. Yeah.

Piet Van Waarde:

What's what's their basic premise for those who don't know?

Joel Salabarria:

So they started off wanting to share the journey of navigating the Bible together. Um, Aria just come into the faith, and uh, they wanted to learn how to read the Bible together. So they started it off like that, and it's inspired so many young adults across the nation and even outside of um our country for young adult people to really dive into the word of God. It's crazy to see at every venue how many people in that 18 to 35 age gap showing up with physical Bibles and highlighters and pens. Wow, you know, ready to dig into the word. And so um Angela and Ari, they're they're they're a gift to the kingdom for sure, and I'm super honored.

Piet Van Waarde:

So do you lead worship before the event? Yes.

Joel Salabarria:

So every stop, 30 minutes about 30 minutes before, we just go into worship, we flow a little bit, and um, it's it's it's a beautiful experience. Honestly, um I I feel like a kid, you know. That's why even saying that like they treat me as a big brother, I feel like a kid running around with them too. And I forget that I'm 41. And uh, but they're so honoring and they're so loving, and I'm so uh blessed to be on the road with them. That's so cool. Yeah, and then you have this little other thing on the side called the Worship Society. Yeah, man. The Worship Society, officially three years old this month, October. Um super excited about what God has been doing. Specifically this last year, I think it's been where everybody's catching the vision full-fledged and starting to run with it. Um, we're we're literally having conversations of chapters outside of Austin to start kicking off worship societies in other cities. And so we're really excited about that. Um give me the basic premise. Like, what is the kind of philosophy vision behind it? So the worship society, and I'm gonna try to do this in the shortest version as possible. It's hard to do it. I've tried a couple different times. It's hard, but this is what it is. I believe that worship society will be a space for creatives and leaders in the in the faith, in the church, in the local church, to find community, to find mentorship, to find sandboxes to figure out what else is inside, to workshop those things out, but also find authentic relationship with fellow believers, fellow creatives that are not just trying to be buddy buddies, but are actually trying to walk life together and be accountable to each other. So we believe that there's no real accountability or effective accountability outside of relationship. Yeah, I think too many times we skip the relationship part and we want to hold people accountable. And even if you're speaking the truth, the lack of relationship part is what makes the process of accountability longer.

Piet Van Waarde:

Yeah.

Joel Salabarria:

Right. But if we're friends, well, we're hiding from each other as well.

Piet Van Waarde:

Right. You know, right?

Joel Salabarria:

We're trying to, yeah, I still look good in front of you. But when we're friends and we're we're walking together, David and Jonathan walking together, then there can be some accountability there. There can also be protection there, right? Yeah, there's a covering when there's relationship there that, hey, bro, like I feel like something's off. You know, you're the way you're interacting is a little off. What's going on? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you only can really sense that or feel that difference if there's relationships, like have being a parent. Yeah, your daughter's talkative, and then for a week straight, she's not talkative. That's an alarm. Yeah. You're like, hey, what's going on? Right, right, right. But that's relationship. And so we believe that relationship is very important for the creative community. In this day and age, creatives are used as machines so many times. So true. So many times. And they're so they're so good at what they do that it's almost non-existent to think that they're human and they got drama too. They're dealing with lust, they're dealing with pornography, they're dealing with depression, they're dealing with um drug addiction. But we've mastered, I'm good, I'm blessed and highly favored, depending on which church you come from. Um and I just want to create a space where suffering alone doesn't exist in our community. And so that's what we do. On top of that, we do our own worship events, our own worship gatherings to put these things into action. Um, sandboxes. I believe that, you know, every musician is not just a musician. You know, how many, how many, how many great communicators we know now that if you were to ask them, they started off as a musician, you know, and I think there's a lot more than that, a lot more of those in our community, but we don't really provide a lot of spaces for that to be cultivated. And so I'm just hoping that Worship Society can be a giant sandbox for people to find what else God has put inside of them without judgment, without abusive critique, um, but genuine mentorship and guidance and space to screw it up.

Piet Van Waarde:

Yeah, you know, and and well, one of the things I love, because I've been at a couple of your events and and and I think you usually introduce it, and correct me if I'm not getting exactly the speech right, but um, it's something to the effect of, hey, listen, I want to create a space where you don't have to be on, where you're just here, you're among fellow creatives, so we get each other, and we're just gonna create some room for the Holy Spirit to do a work in each of our hearts. We're gonna sing, we're gonna enjoy each other's company. There's poetry, there's sharings, they're different, like it just flows like some people lead, and then all of a sudden somebody else is leading. And yeah, it's just it's just it's a wee thing.

Joel Salabarria:

It's a wee thing, it's so cool, it's a wee thing, very, very unique. Yeah, we do it together. This last year we launched something last year around this time called Flow Nights. Um, so our baby is house pop-ups. We go from house to house, which those have become way more exclusive, which is why you don't see it on Facebook as much. Because honestly, the houses can't handle that many people. The air conditioning just doesn't work. So we ain't trying to pay for nobody's new air conditioning system. So that's a you got to be in the know to know when we do house pop-ups. But flow nights has become how we connect with the community as a whole. We go from church to church, and it's literally what it's called. It's a flow night. We start off with prayer and making it known that Holy Spirit, we want you to have your way. We have no set list, we have no tracks, there's no Proposenter lyrics, um, and we don't know what's gonna happen. And it's and it's so far, God has blessed and breathed on every single one, and it's been amazing. I think the shortest one we had was three hours. It's it's been crazy. It's been crazy, and it's been so beautiful. We've seen healing, we've seen miracles, we've seen testimonies for you for you older people that remember testimony service. We're bringing that back because there's something about hearing God working in somebody else's life. Of course, it it activates that faith in you, and so we we've brought that back. Um, and it's very multicultural, multi-generational, generational. We we don't hide from nothing. We want Holy Spirit to completely have his way. And then at any point, singers are swapping out, musicians are swapping out. I don't dictate none of that. They do it on their own because they because the vision is understood at this point.

Piet Van Waarde:

Yeah, nice. I love it.

Joel Salabarria:

Yeah, so if people want to know more about where those things happen, how do they get so the best thing to do right now is to go to the worshipsociety.net. All right, and there's a there's a button on there that you can click to join or find out more. Um, and you'll get worship society's actual phone number, which I don't have memorized. Um but the website's the best place um to go to, and then of course our social media, the worship society, or my personal social media, j dot solabria music. Um, and you we'll we'll we'll put all that in the notes here.

Piet Van Waarde:

Sure. It'll be great.

Joel Salabarria:

We'll definitely stay connected that way. Um, we're actually announcing um this will be right here, you know, announcing that we are opening the doors for building the team bigger. We need help now. Um, it's getting crazy, and so we need um people to jump in and help. So if you want to be in production, hospitality, greeting, um, setup teardown, you know, the doors are open. We need help.

Piet Van Waarde:

So ask you have not because you ask not. So I love it. Yeah, all right. Well, cool. Well, I want to shift gears a little bit. Yeah, let's do it. Um, one of the conversations uh that we've, and I I want to just say this publicly, you know, I have just loved our relationship. I love the chances that we have gotten to do things together. You write in my newsletter every week. Yeah, yeah, it's just it's been awesome to have uh this partnership. Um and one of the conversations we've had in the time that we've known each other is this distinction between multi-ethnic congregations and multicultural worship. And usually those terms are used interchangeably. And one of the things that you helped me understand is that those are those are different things. They're both valuable, yes, but they are they are different. And so I wonder if you can just start by talking a little bit about the difference and then its influence on worship.

Joel Salabarria:

Yeah. So I think a lot of the times the confusion is that um because we have a lot of different ethnicities in our church, that that makes us multi automatically makes us multicultural. And that's actually not automatic, right? So multi-ethnic is obviously good, you know, all people belong, should be, should be able to worship together, but multicultural is actually something that you put in place to represent multicultures, right? And so saying we're multicultural because we have multi-ethnics is actually not all the way honest if we're not being intentional about everything that entails in being mindful of the people that go to our church or are part of our communities. And so if I have all these multi-ethnics, but I don't actually do the work to study the study who I'm serving, how can I be multicultural? How can I be, how can I claim to be multicultural, but I don't understand your culture? So if I'm gonna be multicultural, and if that's the intention, then I need to be willing to do the work to understand the different cultures and how they think and being uh uh practicing cultural humility, right? Being aware of my own culture while also learning somebody else's culture. So I don't have to I don't have to eliminate my culture to learn yours. But if I want to say that you belong here and I want to be multicultural, then I need to do the work to learn your culture so that I can do a good job of stewarding the opportunity to represent that in our worship experience. The reality is that people determine whether they're gonna come back to a church in the first seven minutes, maybe less, of walking in. That's the parking lot. That's yeah, you know, so so we have we have people that come from cultures that don't feel comfortable sending their kids to child care because of their culture. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's important to understand. How can I how can I make that easier to navigate for this person that goes to my church? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? This looks good for this culture, but for this culture, it's like, uh I don't know. Um the even down to like the kind of coffee we sell at the coffee shop, you know, this culture really likes this coffee coffee. This culture really. So I'm not saying like everything needs to be completely revamped, but we should be intentional about figuring out how we can be more multicultural from the parking lot all the way to the stage. You know, there's certain cultures that are always late. You know what I'm saying? I'm not gonna point no fingers, but there's coach, some cultures that are always late. There's some cultures that are always extremely early. How can we still feel, you know, that you know, if you've ever been late to something that you really want to be on time for, there's a frustration and anxiety that comes when you're pulling up because you know you're missing out on what you want to be on time for. How can we meet that and calm that down? How can we be mindful of that and that person feels and not make a moral judgment about it? Right. And that person feels seen, and now they feel like their culture is a part of the big picture.

Piet Van Waarde:

Now you're gonna probably suggest that there's a a good reason to move beyond multi-ethnic, to say, you know what, yeah, that's that's a good start, you know, like great, but be intentional about moving to a multicultural experience. And what would you say is the benefit of doing so? Like, why would that be an important mission to take on?

Joel Salabarria:

So I think my first question would be if do we really want to do that? Cause I because I could say why we should, but some people don't want to do that. And I don't think this might be controversial. I don't think that it's everybody's assignment to provide that kind of space. Yeah, I don't think everybody has that gifting to provide that kind of space. But we got to be careful when we say we're multicultural and we're not doing the work. So if that's the if that's the goal to be multicultural or that's the title we want to run with, then I think it's the reason it's important is because people will lower their expectations for the sake of just finding something close enough. Yeah. Um and I think it's a disservice to the to to to the multi-ethnic people that bring so much rich culture from where they come from. And I think it's a it's a miss. It's a it's a massive miss to think that this culture, this ethnicity, this um nationality doesn't have something to offer that would make us better because we figured out how to do well in our own culture.

Piet Van Waarde:

And I and I think going back to the point that we started the program with, don't you think, and this is my contention, and I hope I hope you agree. It's okay. And you could be you could disagree too. Yes, sir. Um but the idea is that if we are talking about bridging a divide and and and we're saying in order to be part of this community, you have to everybody has to adopt this culture, yeah. Then in one sense, there's like the in people and the out people. And like you said, some people are willing to deal with that because it's least close. But if we are saying, like, like could we create even a deeper kind of conversation and a deeper kind of unity when we give expression within the same context for people who are obviously from different cultures in our context. So if we do some things that, like, and we used the illustration earlier about like some gospel or Latino or uh CCM, like if it's just one of those, then that's gonna everybody's gotta fit into that. But if you have like a smattering, right, and people feel like, oh, they know my language, like there are people here who probably understand more about me and my perspective than I thought coming in.

Joel Salabarria:

Yeah, I mean, it creates trust, it creates um safety in that space. Like, okay, like I matter in this context as well, too. You know, I genuinely believe God loves collaboration. And so when we have these opportunities to collaborate, we should do our best to do that. And here's the thing we're when we're talking about environments that have a staff that's designated to cultivating experiences that are life-giving and thought about from every single angle, that needs to be part of the conversation, right? You know, like that that needs to be part of the conversation. Okay, hey, you know, 30% of our congregation is black and brown. How can we better represent the people that are part of our community and that we're serving? How can we do a better job? It's not gonna happen overnight, but we need to have the conversation. We need to bring the people to the table and figure out it's not just putting a black person on a graphic. That that doesn't check the box. We have to figure out how from the parking lot to the altar call are we being mindful of every every aspect of culture that comes when it comes to our church. And no, you're not gonna please everybody. And I think it's a heart posture matter. I think it I think it has to matter that um we have a strong Spanish community. How can we better represent that? You know, we have a strong um black community. How can how can we make sure that we're honoring of representing that culture as well too? When we have the resources to do it. That's and so because you know, it in context, everybody can't do that. Right, right. And so I don't want nobody to feel like they're missing God because they're not able to do that. Um, I think it's when we start waving the flag of multicultural, it's like, but are we though? You know, because if I start if I bust out with Fred Hammond and everybody just looks at me like a cow looking at a new gate, we find out real quick how oh, we're not that cultural. You know, there's not a lot of multi going on unless I sing a song that you know. And a lot of times this is the danger, is that we call it fusion or multi-got or multicultural because the singer is a person of color adding seasoning to the song. It's like, yo, like I'm it's more than that. Yeah, the chord progressions matter, the writing style matters, the the the rhythm matters, like all of that plays a part in different styles, you know. And so I think caring about the mom that's a single mom coming from um a community maybe where leaving kids with somebody else is not comfortable, being mindful of that person mattering to, and how can we create an environment that communicates safety, not forcing her to assimilate to that, but like, hey, we get it. And so maybe that means being mindful of what our staff looks like as a whole, you know, our volunteers look like as a whole, the color schemes, the the the decorations, like everything plays a part, right? You know, and we know that because we set up our house the way we want it to look when people want to come. Like this is the kind of environment you're walking in. So we we know we know we just gotta figure out what actually matters as a whole when we want to say multicultural versus multi-ethnic. You have a lot of ethnic people in your church, but your experience is not multicultural, and that there's I'm not saying that that's bad. No, I I hear you because I'm with it, I like all the cultures, I want to go to all of them, and so um I just you know, I I chuckle a little bit when I hear people say multicultural, and I go and I'm like, No, this is the same as the other place, you know, it's just the the the congregation is multi-ethnic, yeah, but what we're experiencing isn't.

Piet Van Waarde:

All right. Well, let me um again do a little uh uh turn on the conversation. Okay. Um so one of my contentions, and again, we were talking a little bit about this before we got out on the air, um, is that worship in and of itself has a bonding capacity for people. And and and that one of the reasons why you've created worship society is for that reason. Yeah. Is like like we need to create a space where people can connect to God, which will draw them together. Um we we used to, when Carol and I were doing premarital counseling, one of the things we would say to people is that um it's like a triangle, you know, if you get closer to God and you're both intent on that journey to God, there's gonna be some connection that happens where you get closer too. So it's just like the things go together. And uh I've been thinking recently that that's true in a broader sense too. It's not just in marriage. I mean, it's like in communities where if we can get people to focus in on the Lord, then even if we have some differences uh, you know, about style of music or politics or culture, we we can we can find common ground. Like the Holy Spirit does something in that context. So tell me a little bit about your experiences with that and and and why you think that happens or what people can do to facilitate that happening. Give me a little bit of your perspective on that.

Joel Salabarria:

Yeah, I definitely agree that what you know, a worship experience or music, if we if we just kind of define it a little bit harder, music, regardless of the style, naturally brings people together. If you're at a cookout and they start playing certain kind of music, everybody starts dancing. Everybody starts smiling, they they have to go like you know, you're rocking, right? Because you do your mind just went to that moment. It just naturally does that, right? But I think the enemy also understands that too. And the enemy is very much aware that division needs to happen at every spot. And so I feel like division has infiltrated music for years, even before you know I was born. You know, it's it's it's infiltrated this style is better than that style, this style is more holier than this style. Um, this is worship, that's gospel. And I just like I disagree with that wholeheartedly because if you go to different places in the country in the in the world, worship is gonna sound different everywhere you go, right? Right. And I refuse to believe that the Holy Spirit is limited, Jesus is limited to a preference in style. And I think we as a community need to stop putting each other down because our styles are different. And when our eyes are focused on worshiping Jesus and offering a reasonable sacrifice, which is us, then it doesn't even matter. That's not to say that the conversation around the hurt that's happened because of racism and isms as a whole in church need to be had, but let's not, as creatives, I wish that we would stop contributing to that with drawing a line um in genres. I think when we're worshiping Christ and our hearts are focused on that, it that it has no room for that. It has no space for that. And people get to see and experience the different cultures when we come together and put our egos aside, put our hurt aside for that moment, for that experience. People get to experience something that they maybe wouldn't have ever experienced. And then they get, it's like a bug. It gets stuck on them, you know, and it's it's like you just want more of that. And so I do believe that worship can be um the the the glue or the the antidote, right, for bringing people together. Because I ultimately believe Jesus is the answer for everything that we're walking through right now. All the hatred, all the division, all the the ugly things that we're experiencing in the world right now, you know, the Jesus is the answer. The gospel still remains.

Piet Van Waarde:

Sounds so cliche, but I think you're absolutely right.

Joel Salabarria:

The gospel still remains.

Piet Van Waarde:

Yeah.

Joel Salabarria:

Everything that we're experiencing right now is a is a loud reminder that we need Jesus. And as creatives, we get to use our creative abilities and giftings to highlight the gospel. And and and once when the conversation turns into this one versus this one, we've abandoned the gospel now.

Piet Van Waarde:

Yeah.

Joel Salabarria:

Because the gospel doesn't care about CCM versus gospel or Latin music. It doesn't care. Um, and so for me, it's like let no let's focus on the gospel and also create spaces for us to have conversations so we can get to healing. Because we do need that. That's yeah, we we need that, not at the expense of ostracizing a whole group of people over preference. Yeah. Over preference, you know. Um, we it it's kind of absurd to put Jesus in a box like that, you know. Yeah, that he prefers one over the other, you know. Uh he prefers a contrite heart, a repentant heart, yeah, versus my way is better.

Piet Van Waarde:

Yeah, for sure.

Joel Salabarria:

You know, you look at Abel and Cain, it was a it was the right heart. They both worshiped, but you know, one wasn't received. And it wasn't because one style was better than the other. It was a heart. It was a heart matter. And so it doesn't matter what style we sing, what preference we like, I think you should be allowed to like what you like. If you like Bethel 24-7, listen to Bethel 24-7. And if you like John P. Key and or Ty Tribbett 24-7, rock it out 24-7. Um, but when we're together, we don't put nobody down. Yeah, we don't put styles down. We we come together. I want to learn from you. I want you to learn from me. Yeah, and let's worship together because that's how you see the gospel walked out.

Piet Van Waarde:

And you know, I we we had a bunch of night service last night, and I found myself, you know, I know you're supposed to like focus in on the Lord when you're worshiping, but there was a moment where I just looked around the room and I saw, you know, a variety of people, and each one was kind of engaged in their own way. So you had some teens that were just like, oh, Jesus, you know, with all their enthusiasm. And then, and then I saw some, you know, older people with like a more somber and sober, like reflective state. And I'm just like, everybody here is worshiping the same king. Yeah, and they're doing it in different ways. But I like, I I'm impressed with it all. Right. I love it all. I I just feel like it's just like the focus is now on, hey, we're doing this with him for him. And it's like, so what that they do it differently. Like, I'm just like, I can tell they love the Lord. That's that's what we're here for.

Joel Salabarria:

Man, being obsessed with how and I and I'm not saying that you are because I know that you you care about the the nitty-gritty and just getting the message across. And I love your willingness. One of the things I've always admired about you is your willingness to color outside the lines. At the at the risk of it not being a, you know, it may not work, but like let's try it. Yeah, yeah. You know, and I love that because I want to explore it too. I'm a very curious mind. Um, but being obsessed with how people respond to what God has given us to express is dangerous, man. Because then it becomes your rule of measure, it becomes your ruler, right? Like, oh, they didn't respond the way I saw it in my head. So I must have intended. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that has literally become an epidemic to me, especially if you're a worship leader. Oh no, let me not say that because preachers get preachers do it too. Preachers do it too, and they I think they have more pressure because there's not a worship team surrounding them and musicians surrounding them to kind of like hide behind and also help with the dynamics and and all that stuff. It's them, a podium, and a mic, you know. So that's a lot of pressure. And um the lack of response sometimes can be discouraging. And so it's important to have your identity intact, to know that you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, regardless of the response, because sometimes the no response is a response of reflection. Oh, for sure, and we forget that. And one of the things that I've I've had to learn that the way people respond to my assignment is none of my business. It's none of my business. If they come say thanks, cool. If they come say I did a good job, great. If they don't, still great. Because it's none of my business. That's between them and God.

Piet Van Waarde:

Yeah, and in fact, I think there's this thing in the church culturally, generally speaking, where you know, I I've noticed this, like you'll get up and you'll speak, and and then invariably people will feel some responsibility. Like, hey man, I was ready. That was awesome today. Man, you did it. You nailed it, bro. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like, and I know I sucked. Bro, like when you know, like, yeah, you know, thanks. I appreciate you. I trust me, I know. Well, and the thing is that as a result, there's just like I don't want to get off track on this, but it's just it's just like there there can be these things where people just feel this obligation to have to blow smoke all the time. And then as the person who's receiving it, you really don't have a sense of like, was that like, is that sincere, or is just you saw me because I spoke five minutes ago and you had to say something about it.

Joel Salabarria:

It's a double-edged sword, right? Because you're looking for the response and you're feeding off of that. But then with the danger in that is that you'll get something that's not true because people are just inept to just be kind. Yeah, like, hey, you did a great job. You got up there and you nailed it. You know, you did good. And there's truth in that. But if we're gonna really talk about did I execute the assignment, that needs to come from somebody that's actually qualified to speak into that and knows the journey, understands the journey, can tell that, oh, you skipped some points there. And you know, and there's no there's no hurt in that because of the relationship. And so, you know, you have to be confident in yourself enough to know that that's just a compliment. Let it stay right there. Say thank you and move on. Like, don't say go home and be like, yeah, everybody said I killed you. So I know I did good. It may not be true, you know. But if if my fellow worship leader, who I know is a is an amazing person at what he does says, bro, that was powerful. Yeah, that carries a different kind of weight. Oh, yeah, oh yeah. It just does. And so the way people respond is none of our business. I can't tell you how many times I've worshiped an environment that I don't come from. And I get asked to come lead worship, and the response is very much looking at me. It's not engagement. And then afterwards, I was so emotional by your presentation, I was so moved to to think about how God has done what you talked about in my life. I was just weeping in my chair, or I was just contemplating a lot of things. It's like, thanks, here I am. Obsessed with applause and you know, getting with me. And the person that was sitting down quiet was getting wrecked the whole time. And so it's it's none of my business. Yeah, and it's unfair point to like push that and force people to stand up and force people to clap. And, you know, I encourage it. Hey, come on, let's clap our hands. But if you don't, it's okay.

Piet Van Waarde:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joel Salabarria:

Like, I don't want you to be some because I've watched people that never clap all of a sudden want to clap. Not because I told them to, but Holy Spirit riled up inside of them and that fire shut up in their bones, came alive, but they're still who they are. Yeah, and next week they may just be go back to the way that they respond, but God is still moving in their life. And so we gotta take, if we focus up here, it doesn't even matter because there's gonna be different cultures. There's cultures that dance the whole worship experience, yeah, and then there's cultures that just stand there and receive. Who am I to say they got it, they don't? They get it, they don't. That's so unfair, you know. And so, yeah, the you know, worship should be the church community as a whole should be a space where we can come together from all different walks of life and and be able to walk in unity. And I think the I know the enemy is scared out of his mind for the day that we can actually tap into that real unity. And it's happening. It's happening. Um, because it's gonna be a problem. It's gonna be a problem for the for his agenda. Um, and it's it's gonna, it's gonna, it's gonna erase so much drama that that we deal with right now because God will be glorified. Jesus will be sitting on the throne, and there won't be any divid lines of division when it comes to his body, his bride. Love that. Yeah.

Piet Van Waarde:

So that's where I want to close, actually. Okay. So would you mind like praying for that? Like I didn't I didn't warn you about this, I didn't give you a heads up, but I just feel the prompting as we were as we were talking about it. Like, I I hear you. I think that that is a super important, really needed. But B, I see, I see signs of it, you know, little little tastes of it here and there. So uh let's let's pray into that. Would you would you mind leaving that?

Joel Salabarria:

God, we thank you so much for being a good father and for being mindful of even the things we won't say out loud. God, we thank you that in the midst of the chaos that we experience every day, you are still sovereign, you still sit on the throne. And God, if we could just look up to the hills, God, if we could just look up to where our help actually comes from, we can we can do away with all the all the foolishness that we get distracted by, God. So we just pray right now, in this moment, that you would burden the hearts of your people to look up again, to look up one more time and to see that the answer is not within our concepts, our isms, our our smart conversations, but it's in acknowledging that you are the Lord of lords, you are King of kings. Amen. And God, you have already done the work for salvation. You have already done the work, Lord, to eliminate the darkness in this world, God. And so we just unite as one body, as as friends, as brothers and sisters, God. We just align ourselves, God, believing that you are the answer. And God, so from here on out, Lord, we will proclaim the gospel, we will proclaim the love of Jesus Christ, God, and we will fight division with unity. We will fight to bring people closer together instead of entertaining the things of this world that try to take us apart, God. And so we just pray for wisdom, God. We pray for strategy, God. We pray for boldness and courage, Lord, to step out of the norm and step out of our own protective bubbles, God, and and look at what's around us and see the wonders and the beauties that you have created in this world. And Lord, just give us the strength and the tenacity, the audacity, Lord, to draw people in and to bring people closer to you, God. And Lord, we would just glorify you. We give you glory, glory, glory, glory. We give you thanks for miracles, signs, and wonders that will happen in every single space that we talked about today, God. And we just thank you that you trust us to use us in this time. We thank you in advance in Jesus' name.

Piet Van Waarde:

Amen. Amen. Ah, man, that was so good, brother. Thank you. And we want to thank you for joining us. And uh, yeah, if you want to know a little bit more about what Joel's doing, we'll put some notes down in the notes of the session and uh check him out. I think you'll really enjoy not only his ministry, he's also on TikTok and has great music. So check it all out. You'll uh you'll be blessed. And join us again next week for another sidewalk conversation.

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Piet Van Waarde

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